Stephen Dubner is an author, journalist, and podcast/radio host. He is co-author of the Freakonomics book series and host of Freakonomics Radio. Stephen sits down with the Armchair Expert to discuss being drawn to counterintuitive thinking, his journey to Judaism and looking at politics through an objective lens. Dax asks about Stephen’s childhood and Stephen talks about popular Freakonomics pieces. The two weave in and out of many topics including the prevalence of artificial insemination in turkeys, the uptick in pedestrian deaths and the potential of eating humans.
This is an unofficial transcript meant for reference. Accuracy is not guaranteed.
Were gone. Welcome, welcomed, armchair expert, I'm Dan Shepherd, I'm joined by Emmi nominated monster. Mouse, I'm good are you. I am so grateful to be content with you. It's bad yeah. We really locked out. I feel so bad for the votes that are just straight up by themselves. Quarantining could have been me, could have been you boil boy. Do I have a long list of gratitude for me, so many things we had We want the best conversations with ever had on this Motherfucker Stephen Dublin. He can talk about any topic euro at him. I don't know a little bit about he well and we did talk about every half a really got a lotta dandridge, it's fine, or will I loved
again. We double back so Stephen dampener courses, an award winning author journalism, podcasting radio Hosty is the co author of one of my favorite books of all time for economics. I'm sure many of you have read it as it reached millions and millions of people globally. He also has the very fascinating pack has free comics radio, which is a huge, huge it, and we are just delighted to shoot the shit with him. We hope you'll enjoy more hope. Your stand, safe and well fed in your asses well wiped. Please enjoy Stephen, dubbed honor. We are supported by policy genius. Now there are things we look back on and think. How did I get it so wrong? It might be wearing multiple polo shirts and popping all the collars donating to Coney two thousand twelve ordaining, that one person that one time you know the one were always
to get things wrong. That's just life! There are also things we can get right on the first try like shopping for life insurance. That's where policy genius comes in policy. Genius makes finding the right life insurance. A breeze image you can compare, quotes from the top ensures define your best price. You could say fifty nine hours or more by using policy genius to compare life insurance policies. Once you apply, the policy genius team will handle all the paperwork and red tape for free and policy. Genius doesn't just make life insurance easy. They can also help you find the right home, auto insurance or disability insurance. So, even if you look back on your triple Denham days in distress, you'll never be distressing about life insurance with policy genius. In just a few minutes, you can find your best price and apply a policy genius dotcom. We all get things wrong from time to time. At least we can get life insurance right with policy genius he's like I just like your attitude,
Well, thank you. So much that's really firing cause. You know I was a big big for economics. Proponent. I told everyone to read it. I loved it. You fall to me in the same category in ways that Malcolm well, does in that. I'm very attracted to people who decide move my intuition, that's like one of my favorite feelings in life is financed something's opposite of how I feel honoured on a cellular level about something it's hard to do, though, because while I both know, you know most people to spend all their time in there yeah, but what you, obviously you must to enjoy like going my God, it's death at the opposite of what I would have thought and also the nature of our show, is we try to not do something unless it's going to up in conventional wisdom at least a little because otherwise is who cares yeah, there's just so much you know, but is that a hard honest a fee as it is. Oh, my god I can only add that's the hardest part is coming up with ideas. I mean for every one idea that makes it to show their probably eight or ten than I thought
Now that I decided weren't good every five that we put out, there's probably really only tour that I feel I go, that was really really really, but when you commit to a weekly schedule yeah right now, but I think there's upsides to that too, for Europe is you're out at other times. I have to imagine that it goes the other way where you're, like, I don't think, there's things really worthy of an episode then turns out it's fantastic that is, I find common is the episodes that I think are gonna be like a home run. No brainer great. They turn out like yeah, like I listen this morning to a rough cutter. What were putting out on Wednesday night and it's about socialism, which doesn't sound like a great Well, I got a relevant time, but it's I. It was really good. Elisa first at the second, have got a little bit driver. It's basically for economists talking about, socialism isn't isn't, and then we talk primarily Bernie Sanders Venezuela and Norway. Ok
It was so much like literally fun to listen to, and I say this in oak, obviously with a little bit of self interest in it, but that one I was expecting to be like if I can get through This rough car I'll be happy yeah. So you, u dont now. My first question when on that would be is their consensus on what socialism is big fat right right, it's one of these very like obtuse ideas as in life, though generally like when you talk about re, sir income or sexual attitudes, whatever labels turn out to be mostly, I find not helpful either have a conversation about why it's not helpful. That's when you get to the good conversation. Oh yes, so much of those debates are really bogged down in semantics into people using different definitions, but because I I guess I knew I said well Bernie
Bernie Sanders the Socialists and she said no visas, democratic, social and what the fuck is a democratic socialist. I don't really know that's where splitting is. What that is yeah greatest irony is that Jeff Sachs Susan economist and really think I and you would love him. He he's been doing what he's doing for forty years or so and he used to get around still does to these countries that are mostly failing on behalf of the U N or the: U S bitter and help them fixer economies and he's done it in Latin America going back in this. indeed, when communism began to fall part. You would go to places like Poland to try to help them convert from communism, to market economy, to Jeff Sacks, and now he works a lot for the: U N, he defined socialism. Essentially, as you know, the state or someone like that, owning most things he's also in Bernie Sanders? Is foreign policy adviser last time round any still very strong. We endorse her. Ok, so
then he says burning wrong when he says he's a democratic socialist he's just plain wrong, because what he wants is not socialism It is social democracy, with a mixed economy as opposed to social list. So whatever is a lotta hair splitting, but once you with the hairs. You actually learn the stuff and that's what I like yeah for sure you'll have to like no facts to debate the label because, like if you think about education, this country is pretty much nationalize somewhere or you know, it's a federal system states have their system Towns have their systems, but they get money from the federal government than that Governments been very involved in college, although in often not so great ways yeah. But if you look like health care in a Medicare is social it's from the government right yeah. So that's what this debate is about. As Jeff sacks. The economists who put it most right minded people would agree that the kind of culture
call me in society. What is a myth economy with a strong social safety net, rain yeah. So in that regard, the question is how much market they have and how much government and what most Democrats would now say is that there is not enough government and too much market. What most Republicans would say the opposite way around this too much at once Can I get it on those terms, then you can start to have a discussion about it and in the case of that's a health care, one big problem that most people don't acknowledges that the real that we are different than everybody else in the world is a weird accident of history where health insurance was attached to our employers which no one there rich country in the world does that weird wage freeze. Exactly there was most of those entitlements, retirement and all that came during world war, two yeah, I know the automotive industry.
Had to offer crazy retirement packages and those are right. Yeah offset. You know this from your a hockey town for is precisely in the area of it. Pertains to the automotive industry are probably got a handle on it, but all other ones amount to lunch on yeah. I think so. Basically, you couldn't increase people's weight is after the Second World war. So the government, let firms, give people health insurance as an add on, but it was also tax advantageous to the camp. Knees, sure I and then it trickled into unions and so on. So once you ve, like entangled health insurance with employment as refining out now it's really hard to disentangle yeah yeah, now. Ok, you're from New York before we started chatting, you were talking about having some history on a farm as child where you procured maple syrup right. Well, he procured sap and turn it into Sierra. Ok, big difference
have you seen this there's like a heist series on Netflix in one of the highest they cover is the great maple syrup heist in Canada. Do you know about this really super anyone? What I didn't know about maple syrup of maybe already did was that all the suppliers decide they have entered into these rigid agreements where there are going to produce x amount and what they end up having to do with stockpiling and good years, so that the? remains stable, ended. Aver dump it when the prices again to lay down they down an end. So you know before long. Some of these warehouses do have. I think, the one in this this episode had like forty or fifty million dollars worth of maple syrup sitting in barrels that they deserve storing, and these knuckle stop what which I thought was grandma yeah, yeah how'd, you still with The great thing is the left, the barrels and place it bring a bunch of pancakes. Well, I think they chose like oh, a large tanker option, as opposed to that they re always as a successful. This was successful, yet they got it all out and it wasn't for a while to summon tapped into one of those
barrels and light of isn't myth, Pulitzer Aliases, oh geez, you really meta tell they now I watch while working out a year and a half ago, but I have to say it was in the two thousands for sure who Hauser yeah I stating the maple syrup is that you should feel that neck of the woods right, there's a historic relationship between Canada. And? U S in smuggling, there is a lot of cigarette smuggling. There is a lot of alcohol smuggling right right. The sea grooms fortune, I think, was built on probe an error. Smuggling. Ah ha, I believe the Bronfman family, your sister slandered them, No, you! Let us know when you got a letter from my letter. I dont want to jump
that, but you have been sued Zapata, or maybe you weren't soon. My coffee, Steve Levitt, was soon. He asked for defamation, yeah yeah yeah, not you! Well, you know, I guess I take it back. I guess I probably was soon. I love you, but I want to say that juicy did bill. It's ok, I remember, I think, disclose the deuce out of it was. It is another word, language is evolving, is look. Instantly if you play scrabble, you find that out where I live. Video he's really good at everyone. Hates me. Yes, all the two letter, thus violence. We got a big fire ones, because I was rooting far other friend to win an ancient really took it in his mind, that is their allotted games that you can play where there's like a letter of the law in a spirit of the law.
Finally, one without the other and its high. You want to be that way, no offence that line but their york and exclude certain cohort of the population. From wanting to ever play with, you will have a complaint is like. Oh, you, memories, others to let her words and your mother fucker met. Is that it's not like I'm, the only one alone to memorize Doolittle were in others there for everyone, but it's like you're saying that's exactly we owe you only had home runs. What now to a baseball player that oh you're, bad rat also means it. If that's what you do you most most likely juice, then to say you're just doing your form of using, although nobody thought about it, it's about what kind of scrabble player you are telling the world you wanna be, and it's you saying I'm a competitive when I want to win, which is totally fine. I'm just saying other people to play with your really oh scrabble letters words buttons together, yeah, they don't want to get near law. A lot of people are very intoxicated by the notion of making longer and longer words, but at EU level is a math game. It is not a word game units that are, U S highly defensive player. I assume you you, I'm not. In fact, no that's another game we play regularly were. I believe that all games are all about offence like effusions. I travel then, yes,
if you have a thrilling orphans, you don't ever need to look over your shoulder thing now that iraqi TAT Danny, I don't really like a tan, I noted, but I've never play I. So we play all the time and you are in a roundabout way, very defensive, because yeah you're playing off sensibly, but if anyone else plays defensively, then you and you become insanely. Different reactive array active in its very sound insufferable. I would say impression that, listening to you bet, you didn't like nice guy so utterly so optimistic friends at your total having all things are true. So while I'm gonna fuckin tyrant playing this game, I am asking you a lot of quotas and truly interested in Verona. Okay, so up to New York, you european kind of a farm region of state in Europe a little far me. It was actually a police it'd, just hit its economic peak, it had started to decline, may be two or three decades before
We went there. Ok, it's now got some components that look a lot like Appalachia, like very, very depressed. I grew up in. Just middle and lower outside of Schenectady, which had been general electric headquarters for many years, so there were really good paying jobs that people would go to for that. It was the area not far from the Iraq now had come in like a century earlier, and that was economically this amazing engine and then that start, to fade when the railroad game, then the industrial decline, and began about my family was there. It was just kind of very. Hard, scrabble everybody making their way. I grew up in this big cats, click family, although I was usually very interviewing before use after, but then a big Catholic, very income, family farming, subsistence farming, my dad always worked, but did make much money. So we grew out of our food and ok yeah you're one of eight children, you, the youngest of a correct and Monica his dad converted from Judaism to Catholicism before he was born.
Both are both apparent yet so short story is both. My parents were kind of standard issue. Brooklyn Jews that you would read about in like a tree grows in Brooklyn era, the most common you know, image of people. Have They are both born a long time ago now, both of them before they met each other during World war, to both converted from duties and Catholicism, which was very rare, very traumatic for their families yeah. They did it for two totally reasons really. My mother's family was not very religious jewish. They had emigrated. She was born here. She the ballerina. My mom was pretty good, pretty serious in her mentor, verbally. Mistress was herself a russian convert from orthodoxy to Rome Catholicism and my mother thought that that was just like amazing dramatic, and so she came to be a true faith. Believer in converted, father was during the Second World WAR he was stationed received one, the few jewish guys where he was. Obviously
was a lot going on with juice during the Second World WAR and mother was met with you know, block party, so I dont know how much my dad new, because there wasn't a lot of information but his both of his parents. Families were still- mostly in Poland, they were all wiped out. I dont know much. He knew how much had affected him. My dad died when I was So here you, your ten yeah yeah. So there are lots of things that you know like. I could never know but she knew about these things, but anyway my mom was like this very very. Strong spirit capable of learning and doing just about anything, very, very and so on. My dad was a very, very good guy, lovely guy who tended towards what we it is called the oppression that girl that melancholy. So when he was overseas during the Second World WAR, we know you can imagine how traumatic that for anyone how scary etc, and he,
was kind of searching for something spiritually. He came from an orthodox family, his father still practised Judaism as if he were back in Poland, so. My father went through a lot. He was a little bit of an intellectual. Did a lotta reading a lot of conversing with Army Chaplin's, who not surprisingly, were not jewish Chaplin's during the Second World war in the middle of the South Pacific, and he ended up converting over the course of a few years to Catholicism is well, then my pet, Matt tell me all over. I would have absolutely assume they did it together. They were like two needle in a haystack bumping into each on how they were made for one another. It was remarkable and it was great and they fell deeply and so much so that they could kind of face the future. Without their families, because their families pretty much cut them off, and this happened then they started having kids and more kids and they were catholic, and so thank God for me, because I'm the eighth, so I get my parents had.
Converted? You know, I'm not around. To tell my story, I have to say many many, jewish friends and acquaintances, and I dont know any of them that are from a family like that. Make now that you're saying it everything out of together, but yeah you don't hear many. Jewish families be having a children yeah like none, so we were half the growing up and I was an altar boy in the hall, My brother you could say were loosely christian. In theory, our grandparents were right that might denomination loosely christian. Well, you I'm a one: grammars were or catholic, the other were southern Baptists we went to both. Churches is kids, my mom don't really care. If we went to church we would we were to be largely secular household, with all that set my brother and his wife, whose Catholic converted Judaism, no way. You guys great question. So my brother, I inexplicably, always had an affinity for Judaism, my father,
a lotta jewish women. It was around a lot. He always wore a star David from any longer and then as they ass David well, his eye in saving which allow amuses fulfilling the neighbour they live in was largely Jews. The kid circling J C c for peace once of and then they they did it no kidding yeah yeah. That's not tat! That's not I'm a story that I agree we're both sitting in this room. That's an unlikely conversion, that's really wild young. I mean I've always found any kind of spiritual kind of biography, really interesting, because you know the work that I do would seem to have nothing in common with it. But I find that is a parallels, because what you're trying to do is understand behaviour, essentially gray weather having to do with economic, sir, what people buy and sell, but in other choices that people make, these internal stories that ultimately affect your behavior entered I too understand cause and effect there. That's really hard. When I wrote this book about my family there's years goes my first book, I wasn't wanting
a memoir. I was jewish at the time. Just kind of a standard lapse catholic. My thing actually began with life interviewing my mother for the purpose of making an oral history to give, as at present, to my brothers and sisters. Christmas present this year, because I had no money and you know I always try to you're siblings and that's how it began. It wasn't about writing about me. Wasn't me becoming jewish. It was trying to understand why they did what they because my mom was still alive. She could explain her story, but my dad, because he wasn't I d- go digging so became like a ten year, Can I ask how much can you trust your mom's version of your dad story very interesting question I mean to me: that's like the crux of interpersonal relationships. Ray is how much can you trust it when I said trust you and when you said, trust like it's not about the people in the south, intentionally deceptive at all. We ve all got some memories, and even when we are confirmation by exactly probably these problems have the highest stakes isn't like jury
trials right off the land? Now people's memories are our privation. Every new bit of information coming out of the whole world of jurists, four, as it gets more and more bleak, and an eyewitness accounts in memory more more depressed, while the Good NEWS is technology is getting better, though I mean look. Look at the parallel like radiology that reading reading imagery rank the lake we ve been ok at historically like reading mammograms and reading everything. Humans have been ok at it, but on a false positives and too many false negatives. It is or better or lead drastically, and so I ask that actually you know every realm is different, but even in law and order it's gonna be were even now you see people are convicted much more on digital forensic evidence than they were before. I think that's a great thing so yeah, but really give seventy seven sibling. So what I wouldn't, I would have to assume my brother, and I have these- I mean what in traumatic events of childhood, and we have
the location indifferent place, and when I see how dramatic the differences between human memory of this thing that you would think would be the most memorable thing brain and then I go well fuck. I don't know whether to believe him or me, and probably neither of us are absolutely correct. So it's amore, it's exposing your own life. You start really recognizing the frailty of it all yeah. What you just said reminds me of this- is sound totally non sequitur non secretarial earlier. That's what I want to go to any lengths, ecuadorians visitors. There remain, We believe like why are is important because art split say a play It's a movie, that's a painting, whatever you're not trying do journalism, you're, trying to kind captured the truest form of the emotion in that case facts are important, but what the facts or is it but secondary to what the actual lived experience of a person is, and so to me that's why any real
you get into where you're doing story telling. That is true to the essence of something is really important. Because look you could write your own story. You could write your own met. Each of us could write our own life story from birth how and we'd get thirty percent stuff wrong. So I sat up and you're gonna get the emotions rate so with my family. My mother was not very interested even in in discussing my dad's reasons, for conversion because to her they were ancient history like he was yeah he'd been jewish, like I've been jewish, but then we fell in love with crazed and we became Catholics and we raise the family and set our path forward and set your kids path for that matters, and so she wasn't nasty in any way it wasn't like was a taboo subject. You just said interested then I began to seek out my father's family, who I did not know. I literally had not met my father's relatives because he had been cut off for having converted. So that was how it became a kind of report,
journey that took solar humbled by the time it was done. I was on my way to becoming a kind of jewish. Ok, Is there a couple items that pulled you they're gonna just say from the outset: I've friends of every kind of Jews are the best you're going to say. I they are. I am, I think, lie to you. My brother converted and I was exposed to like baby naming tradition and these different things on my own I'm an atheist, but boy these traditions? I see the value of them. I can actually see what the intention is in generally, I am really in favour of all the intentions of most of those tradition. Yeah. There are many things from foods. Music. So you know I used to play a lot of music and, like I would here jewish melodies for the first time and as I will well, I know that one little so a lot of things like that, To me, the biggest best thing was the jewish history
being willing and in fact bid it being required. Come up with new ideas and new solutions, and that's not necessarily a characteristic of every people. That's been in a minority, it's been persecuted, but it really helps. In other words, if you're a group, oh and you're living in one place, then suddenly the tsar the kings has none and now get out. You gotta go to this place and the place where you were living there. River and you could have a tanning industry right. You need never made. There was a hemlock force, whatever you need to ten, I highlights how do I do it you, gotta, move to this new place, it's mountains and totally different or now you gotta move to the city. It's totally different, there's something the ability to have ideas. It was part of the jewish tradition. Many many years. Others is that the rebellion coal approach there is there's a line in the maybe the most famous line, the Tom and turn it turn it in turn it for everything is in it now
look at a thing from a given so lake? Ok, here's what some people say encapsulates the way of jewish thinking. You could say there are five Jews who kind of defined ways of thinking about the World Right Moses said: the law is everything Jesus who, yes was jewish said love is everything marks said money is everything Freud said, sexes, everything and eyes I said everything is relative oil as a way of being an unconventional thinker, partly because you have to and partly because it away of advancing the world. You know to me. The most kind of valuable component of jewish thinking is what's called cocoon alarm, which is to heal the world.
But I mean we all have. This has nothing to do with me and you were just like the idea that we should all try to leave our corner of the world in slightly better shape than when we came in and so for all that we all complain all the time about our political stuff in our economic stuff. The fact, the world has been getting better, oh yeah, all along and the fact that we actually harp on the bad stuff. I actually find that is actually two because it means we don't accept you no progress today. Yea In the end, these Steven Pinker time line of fulfilling the the dreams of the enlightenment. We ve made great great progress in continued to write on so do you think it's a mistake, though, to dwell too enjoy the negative as we seem to do now. So I feel, like I've been forced to take the position just because, most peers are in that this is the worst has ever been thing. And so in fact,
it resentful like give the example of the election night happened. Would that's not who I voted for? I was to colonel, lament the experience and then a nurse. My wife was crying and mock, who was very upset and another couple friends were crying. I just was like Oh well, there's no room for me to cry here. I have to put a positive spin on this, like I did this my job in this little group two to go like we look, we got a lot of apparatus. I in the system that will prevent one person be enough. I just launched into the so you actually this after the election you were. Basically, you are caring for people in that way. I I wish I was had to say was I trying to find the positives that would lift up this workout out
That was good and sometimes bad when you say that, because I had an incident very similar to that in that I think I was in California on Election day. I remember that Trump went to the White House and sat down with Obama and they talk for much longer than they specific area, and then I heard the Tat, I was sure, was not true. They said it was a first they never met face to face, and I said, wait a minute. That's the problem, You can have a sitting president feeling that this guy he's running on the other side granted is a total idiot which he had implied, though not said, any can't have the guy running as Republic in saying that the sitting president is all the names at the trumpet called Obama, the where you can have that, I thought is: if people dont know each other and then when you get in the same room and you sit, you sail man, you know you're a guy, I'm a guy, you yeah human, we have kids and then it went so long announcing- and this is a great site- for humanity and I was telling my family is dated via.
Dayton arms. If you dare we are supported by hems. Hems is a wellness brand for men. What's a common issue men face, but don't always want to talk about. Think long and hard forty percent of men by age, forty struggle from not being able to get in maintain an erection white guys turned to weird solutions or do nothing when they can turn. Instead, the medicine in science check out hymns and you could discover the tiny pill worth a big celebration for hymns dot com is a one stop shop for hair, skin care and sexual wellness, ferment hymns
x you to real life. Doctors and FDA approve pharmaceutical products to treat a d, so no more awkward visits to the doctor or long lines at the pharmacy go to for hymns dot com and get your solution today. Try him today, by starting out with a free online visit, go to for hymns dot com, Slash Dax five, that's f, o r h! I M S. Dotcom Slash Dax five, four hands that comes last Dax. Five prescription products are subject to doktor approval and require an online consultation with a physician who will determine if a prescription is appropriate, see website for full details, as if the information is because hundreds, if you went in person to the doctors officer Pharmacy, remember that's for him.
Calm, slash, tax, five: we are supported by solid gold. Did you know that up to eighty percent of the immune system is influenced by the gut or that supporting the immune system through proper diet? Digestive health enables pets to better fight environmental allergies. Solid gold is passionate about gut health, because a healthy digestive system positively impacts the immune system in overall wellness of pets, solid gold was the first holistic PET company in America. Solid gold nutritional platform is inspired by their founding belief that high quality food is the best way to impact our pets, mind body in spirit for over forty five yourself goal has revolutionised the holistic pet food category and they have a recipe for any dog or care.
dietary needs, including unhealthy whole grain and grain free options, wet food supplements like seal meal and a hundred per cent human great bone brought for dogs. Solid gold foods are different because they cleanse the digestive system with whole super foods, balance with living probiotics in fuel with omega three and six fatty acid, supporting got health and nourishing your pet inside and out. Right now to see the solid gold deal of the weak go to solid gold, pet dot com, Slash Dax, that solid gold, pet dogs coms. stacks to see the deal of the weak. Remember, solid gold, pet dot com, Slash Dax! there can be a downside and always trying to middle ground is is certainly battle We're talking about originally, which is you, the need to sort of not take aside the sort of middle ground to make everyone else feel comfortable, but that can back. Fire became
and so did the original question. So I do think I provide the role in my social group or I'm pointing out the long term a graph of overall starvation overall disease rate overall wealth over all these things have been obviously, as you point not turning straight up the continued you and I think so it's weird Zoloft can be like guys it's each year. There are problems to fix, but it is arrogant to say this is the worst thing anyone's ever dealt with. That part feels a little bit arrogant and self important a bit. In doing that, some people interpret that is missing. You shouldn't be fighting to rank, protect the kids in cages, which is not what I'm saying, but I'm just ain't. You can be active and engage without The task revising the life I agree I agree under resent. I think the one component of this it does cause problems is when you inherently demonize everything on the other side. I hope
and I started to think about this because look I've been roughly democratic. My whole life, I grew up in a family that were kind of classic blue collar. Have we Democrats, although my mother ended up switching because she was a right to life actively shirt, so she kind of reluctantly became a Republican, but then look They do not believe that is american politics there, basically Coke and Pepsi, and their fighting overcome farmers, and so they basically have figured out how to each get roughly half the customers and then they kind of middle around the margins little bit. But what I find most they saw the poorest to kind of choose a tribe and if you choose a tribe because there's one key platform that you agree with in your head, to accept everything else. It goes along with it. That's just not sensible. I like the way the world works. So what I remember when I was the first time I voted think I remember was. Maybe it was an old enough to vote, but I was and it was Jimmy Carter against Reagan? I was in college
Everybody knew voted for Jimmy Carter, those around a bunch. Other people were kind of. Like me, because I knew everybody I knew was going for democratic. That will add locked up and then Reagan one it's like well, maybe I need to get out a little bit more right. Then I watches Reagan was vilified mostly by most Democrats as all different kinds of things. Then you know we go through all the rest. We go through form, but I will go through the progression of presence and then I realized You hang around with a lot of democratic people. Every Republican is considered the devil now, if you hang out with a bunch of Republicans, which I also do cuz. I have a lot of people from different circles. They think that Obama was the devil. I think that is the biggest kind of obvious problem is when you demonize a the person and be every policy attached to the person. What are the odds that really, if you're, a hard core conservative republican? What are the odds it? Everything Obama thinks and says and does is a bad idea come on
Yes, Trump. I would make the same argument It's a little bit of a harder argument to make his style Obama, Exact went out of his way to be court. We considered unmonitored right yeah, I'm doesn't is not a criticism of your trump fan, your like that's a really effective to, as is proven to be so you know, I agree with you. I think that thing that both sides have a problem with is the in group out group there, the devil I mean I get it. I again I mean there's a spectrum of psychological animal. Experience experience everybody has in every everybody are observing has spectrum to, but I feel like. We should be a little bit more stew like we should be. A bit more psychologically and emotionally and sociologically stoop. When we talk about things like politics, sometimes I just think the best way I should say the best where the only way I can deal with it is to do what I do with free economics which, as you know, it, take a step back and say we're not
engage that core emotional political argument instead Can I go much more micro, because the minute you get big, it gets vague but he's waving their arms round, shouting at it. So I'd rather just try, focus on one small thing that you can actually get to the bottom of the sea and then, if people are willing or busted in absorbing that, then, from their own perspective, extrapolating out great mean. That's why education is important, is not to accumulate. It's to learn how to assess what's important and why and what causes things So ok, so you leave this small town, you into appellation national action plan, Appalache State University in North Carolina, but then you I'm going in getting a masters from Colombia for writing it, and then you taught me and then you you eventually started writing for different publications, one of them being the New York Times magazine, yeah yeah I actually worked. There is an editor and wrote whatever I could and then you were despatched, is correct.
To interview Stephen love. It asked yes or no and you didn't want to do. It is correct. As your working out a book, I had written a couple books this family member, and then I was working on spoke about. The psychology of me like how money is a force, not a forest, quite but money is one of the things like sex religion. That people do a lot of things about and for many of which are irrational and look. Money was agree in view. In which we tend to overlook like before he had money. I'd like I'll give you a pile of wool if you'll come Guild, my what are known as so save money was great, throws writing the book on money. When my letter at the New York Times magazine, said, there's a skies, deliberate economists, universe, you Chicago who was fairly well, know, maybe notorious for this paper linking legalised abortion in the. U S to a fall in crime. Generationally, right that it made a lot of headlines and so on
and so we asked me to write a piece about him and I foolishly said you know I'm into this book already, I'm just going to keep my head down and Leavitt. Even though he's an economist, he doesn't really deal with money or the psychology of money, but I was going to be in Cargo anyway, for different reporting system. Me, read a bunch of limits papers and then I did beyond the abortion and there were papers on collusion among sumo, wrestlers and real estate agents and whether they actually optimize settling down those. I want all the time yeah, it's a fairly obvious conclusion, Fortunately, I never had to tell a few people selling their houses that basic I'm quoting your book. The assumption is: ok, you're real estate agent is a profit participant in the sale, so they would want to naturally get the sail up as high as possible. But in fact there are better off plain: a quantity game, selling houses. Very quick and telling moorhouse so that the minutes not because it may, if you think about any mission thing like if you're getting twenty percent of something and you can get from one million to two million. While then it's worth your while, if you're going
like one and a half per cent of something and you can get it from one million to one point: two million: U factor in all the time. It would take you to get the incremental bonus new say, maybe not the that's! A cow! Look at me There are many real estate agents who work really really hard in their clients best interest, but the data show that if you're selling house then year agent is most likely going to encourage you to sell it something below what you could get because it's in their interest. Interest is eleven thousand Diana Counter Intuitive and by the way I just want to say. If I can make one complaint Monica AIDS is, I only criticise the love, because I feel that my own group what our side is in great at doing in studying incentive. Am. I have many other gimme a lot more. I think, generally, the solutions we put forth
rely on the shoulders of some oral impair. Larry thing, yes, and I don't think that's a great incentivize or for many of the problems. We had a good argument. I agree, but I'm not so sure it beat so different from the re. Wouldn't Well, no, I think your general at least the right does believe that the market forces will have to be the solution that you're not gonna, get this country to adopt some technology that is inconvenient expensive, involve they seem to be a little more realistic about that yeah. I guess it gets to things like you have a plastic bag ban hearing, California, don't you we had one another back if you notice that the railways are yet for about five years, there is no plastic bags, and now I'm seeing them against. I don't know what happened. Merely city started, one like within the last few days, actually it's an interesting issue, because you have to ask like how useful is it, how effective visit? What are going to be the unintended consequences, but to me biggest one, and this has to do with all behind no incentives does it create what people,
calm, moral licensing. In other words, I feel really good about the fact that I am not using plastic bags anymore. Therefore, I'm not gonna sweat so much about anything else. It may. Happening, and that to me is the worst problem you get with a bad understanding of incentives is after figure like what are the gains you actually got. What are the costs that you actually paying, and what are you trying to accomplish because there's a lot of hand waving and lip service that may enable fee awake? I saw I just solve global warming by not using a straw today right and the generally, not looking for in five steps beyond that. First thing, so urban should play chess is a child is yes is like there's none, not nearly enough downriver thinking. I think if you feel good after not getting the plastic bags, the next time you're about to go for something plastic you're, like maybe I'll, go for something
like make that doesn't have a residual effect. So, unfortunately, the evidence shows exactly the opposite: real, that's what they mean by moral licensing. I've given myself a moral licence to now lake. And some good right now I can do what I actually want to do. I feel like a punch, the ticket there, and now I can do what I actually want to do, which is consumed that thing without any guilt about. Also the fact that, like plastic is actually really interesting product that we not think about that. Much or so it is a by product of Chromium refinement so was like it was kind of taking what would otherwise often been dislike ditched and turning into something that sometimes you full, but often useful, but they are member thirty years ago. That really changed. My thinking, which is that plastic wrapping on that's a fruits, invent the bulls liquid saved the saran rap type, not a big hard clamshell, the Saran rap type, which is a very small amount of plastic that actually keeps a ton of food out of landfills and from being
it only because it preserved longer. Like you know, you ve heard the statistic, probably that we throw away some like forty percent of all food that we buy in America above all, I mean think about a half a century ago. The biggest concern was we wouldn't have enough food to feed the world. Now Can we go to a thousand, I mean we're rich country, bacilli, unbelievable, but you know what can I tell you that that doesn't bother me throw away the now I'll? Tell you why? Because ultimate we do have to employ three million people, and if you, talk about a product that is best to throw away. It would be fun, if you go in order of things, we want people throwing away that really number want re as opposed to as a to plastic began. One doesn't Bio railway threaded here, not clothing. I think clothing is like the next kind of waste com station tat my wife's already having a lot of people. I am like going minimal with your wardrobe mental mantle airing yeah. I guess just some again on the web.
When I hear some of these things proposed, I go well. You know we do have to keep three million people. Is he here we gotta start there. That has to be the ultimate imperative right. There is like we gotta keep her in my. So what are we gonna have them do and what is the most damaging for the earth in what you know the society that everyone watches each other's pants, what we're getting married. So what is the the least destructive version of washing each other's pans, and I haven't, food waste is a pretty good one brain it. Unless you do the whole calculation same, how much energy was put into growing all food that were not using grower. There is also I'm curious like if its Cindy, sure that, like the big concern is, how do we keep three million people busy, because I mean that's the big you know did you follow Andrea campaign, a little bit Georgia and we want a couple debates. Are I may say so: that's a really interesting debate and be told it's hard. Didn't nobody has an answer yet others a lot of interesting facts and interesting conversation. Both sides were but like it's not demand
feebly, obvious to me that everybody will need to be employed. Twenty fifty right, I think about dogs dogs. You go back centuries. Millennia go dogs, work animals we dogs that were like pleasure animals or companions lived lake with the king charge, your all the gods were working days, and then there is a civil dog called the turn spit dog. That would be like a hamster wheel. Running running, turns to turn a spit to roast are a big piece of beef if open fire, that was the dogs job and they bread that dog to do that. So had like this, trunk in these little legs and all day was do this right. Then we came up with like a machine to turn then an oven right, so dogs from being these work animals. Then
the kind in limbo for awhile, and now we treat our dogs way better than we treat the lowest among us human, wise wave at all. Events of an adult male treasure treated my home. The way our three dogs, you I'd, be the fuck out of him in the fire I mean every guy came in and shit the middle. My carpet nigh can no longer have carpet my house yeah. There be problem, ok, so maybe trainers design some bag, it will still be twenty years now, companies you couldn't train mayor mentally dead one. I will Canada or my wife that more ask you, don't yet more bureaucracy and more appealing, yeah yeah, gab lesser but like dogs, you could say we have, I think, more dogs, now than ever We spend more money taken care of her dog than ever by a long, long shot. I'm not so sure that humans would become like the robots dogs like what may only really all them. Lads will have a great time. I think that each I think we would all agree that if you can set the entire system up and then pull them
which, on the wall, where we go from a hunters percent employment, two zero, that's golden! It's the! eighty five percent employment transition- that is nearly impossible right, but no system in history has changed that dramatically and drastically. I mean communism exploding was really entry. Like a lot of people, thought that is going to fund, do we change, I mean, did fundamentally change while things but you'd think about well. Everyone its communist is now going become capitalist or ordinary market economies, and that's going really change all the market. Economies for better or worse people didn't really know, but look thirty forty years done road, China is kind of a weird mix, very capitalist, but very communist Russia a kind of its own story still, even though it did race, a lot of market reforms and a lot of market stuff. It's now gone back to what American please consider some kind of you know: oligopoly with no transparency and so on. So its history, like me,
plans God last year. We think we can predict how this employment Armageddon will or want unfold, and we had to me. Can I just say my one by so I was into it. Like I read in the almost ass, I am, I guess that's what we're heading I was gonna. Do you know render eighty percent of the jobs useless here. And I was all on board, but then, as I learned, that we ve made the same prediction eleven times throughout history and we ve always manage to find something for us to do it just feels defeatist. Yet it feels very defeatist me that, with that we don't think will be to figure out what to do with our time. That's productive or useful to each other. I agree so we solve that. Just don't die delicious. The other thing is it would the system we have what we want to call it democratic capitalism, its flexible, its nimble, it's fast yet, and that's partly why people hate it volatile, you know and industry will come up and all of a sudden all the people flow out like the best,
brightest: are no longer going in a medicine wrangling into finance and technology that's in some ways, a terrible things you want the best and brightest, let's say to be in medicine, but it's also great at creating wealth prosperity bubble by without sound random, but even in the short term in our last tenure window, the headline get her was like borders and barns ennobles, client right these bricks and mortar visits. That's all. Products were vanishing from all these clauses and what not end as I look around the city I drive run, unlike other all you pine woods all service relate area in no one. It's great, there's still occupied. There is a kind of foreseen. Theirs is all these services. We never thought we would use that we do mostly massage parlors. Thank God knows I do not want any of you, get our real, affordable, massaging, an ally. Ok! So when you interviewed Stephen Lever.
Yeah, when you interviewed em, you kind of fell in love with him in here to our interview turned into a three day party with them I mean I e says that it was meant to be two hours in ok and that I kept cheating and lying in extending I was hoping you'd be hunger, but yeah he was just here. So creative and smart and good at what he did, in a way that that I aspire to be smart in creating good at what I did as a journalist, and so it was intoxicating. Just talk to him really cause. Yet he has a way of thinking and a lot of economists. They see Well, the very particular way they don't seem to share a lot of common treats with the average human in that they don't have the emotional component correct, yeah, yeah yeah. I did that actually it in measure in moderation and in maybe in concert with other people who do yeah the bill gates for part document. I never like illegally watch Japan because, again I look.
That person and I go man. There are a handful of problems and there the big one re were. You need a mercenary yeah. You need someone that has built something that understands the incentives that understands the financials at understands the scale of production. You need someone that almost has no heartstrings to tackle energy, to tackle sanitation, to tackle these things, because we get really bogged down in the emotion of it. We do I've always liked economists and physicists and engineers, because I love the humane. I mean I'm, I was mean, I'm a rating music person by nature yeah, but those are feel dinner, many others, computer science, where people actually know how stuff works and they can cry, but in a very usually now value judgement way.
I would argue- and I am sure that your ready now, but that the magic recipe to freak economics to me was that there was to very clear voices, one being very humanitarian story telling voice and then that in one being a very data driven- black and white view of the world yet, which is why it is useful that is also just fun for us to do it because he rubbed off on me. A law I rubbed off in him, maybe a little I mean that's kind of even though, were to wait. Guy's name Stephen, that is to me kind of the argument for what we talk about. We talk about diversity? What is the idea of diversity? The idea is, If your building or whatever a family corporation government, you want to include people who, when you say, Exe, they're gonna say no. No, it's why right, then you have that conversation and that's where I think we missed the diversity thing again. This is like that. and wait now talk about. We reduce diversity to lake what they call the observable. Yes, person looks different than that person, so that's all we gotta do
Well, if you really want, is you want people who think differently in that's harder to observe? I'm not saying that observable debris, eighty, while the other you know I am once interviewed Trevor Noah, whose super interesting, obviously smarten funny and when talked about something along these lines. You know, I said it's kind of shame that we sort by the observable- and he said, yeah, except if the rest of the world sorts by the observer, and if you happen to be black, you can't skip that observe our airlines that are shaped by people sorting per admirable solely rate. I can acknowledge immediately that I can escape quite easily? My white trash background Owen, I went to use a allay, and now you know I'm saying but you cannot escape the visible, distinct distinguishing feature correct for life that were that the out here,
however, no here, though I think I'm mad you'll, never man there, maybe I hope when she's dying. I think yours, That's right is that she dies you're smart about yours, but what would you haven't do differently to be smarter, now he's I'm occupying the role Father now currently cause she doesn't live with her father she did say the other day. She said you know cause her. Dad was fucking labyrinth, by any closer to a few years ago we were going why so obsessed with Amy got? What is he talking about? Knowing knows we worrisome screaming at hand? Why are you bring this personal kind, Millward trying to be a contrary and bringing up something, ran up and now he's lying dead right then. So She did in that moment say he's kind of like you watch out. For me, I've been riding on that pink loud. I think. Now, for three weeks it was quite an admission nyerere, Wiersma. We think we're living in here.
Made tricks the popular than it currently is. Are you in your own simulation right, but it did me about three months ago. I go only got where in your fucking dad doesn't your life in a week. No one ever considers that they are an avatar, but I think I might be an avatar. I ask you a quick personal. Were you born in Georgia. Gap is Monica you're, given name gas, so how unusual among you said you dad dear parents, both came from India, they daddy. How unusual among your fellow indian, american friends, is having a totally americanized. First name. Cosette strikes me as relatively rare. I It's pretty rare, also my mom group in Georgia. They move when she was six a solo. Three trees are held as Canada Way, but I think because she grew up in Savannah Georgia within name of normal She was like I'm not doing that, but what is interesting is that, even in a lot of second generation and maybe beyond indian american kids, get named-
traditional indian names, whereas a lot of second third generation other asian american families. Chinese and so on. They. Angler size immediately. I actually have this conversation with Andrew Yang and I asked him why he thought that was. As you know, I had a few theories and he said: oh that's easy, because we're in secure Meanwhile, I said you know the Indian Americans, they just they know their smart and good and accomplished so they can like Wagner yeah, and they don't need to link show. My name is Michael. I can be likes to dash I don't buy that. Another argument is that Chinese Americans, especially during the seventies and eighties, were so much more suspected of some kind of espionage out. I understand I stay walls you, the interment camp, has yet, but also the indian politicians tat
change their names to something barium here like lobby, gentle, exactly and Nick Hayley yeah. She is that that they evolve changed our names so, and I do think I think they feel that if they, needs to be like globally appealing they still have to do. I look there a lot of in an american ceos of beer Seventeen Adela, maybe the most brilliant, see you're going at Microsoft here and they ve all got their traditional. But again, you know everybody's different, just an interesting thing to me that you're, Attica and yeah, you know TAT aunt normal. It is theirs of interesting things about Monica, can or history. Ok, so I just want to say: would you say the biggest hot button topic of free economic? Was the abortion I mean Sworder because its controversial by nature. Basically, the theory was that when people are trying to understand why crime was falling across the? U S in the early start early mid nineties. Why and they're alive?
here is the economy, is different. Policing was different sectors and etc, and the fear that Steve Levitt and his co author on this region, Paper named John Donoghue, whose law professor came up with was that the legally of abortion, Roby weighed in eighteen, seventy three created environment, where fewer quote unwanted children were being born right now. Interestingly, women, who were having abortions that early period, including in later periods they weren't necessarily having fewer children overall, but they were having them later at times were had they require home in via. Were there a regiment of it? What was it that largely a dynamic of wealthier more decorated people working no he's not a dam is farmers. I don't have it at my fingertips will, as far as I know, pretty much across the board basically was under this. If a woman gets pregnant and thinks that she's not in a good time and place to have a child, then she could
sense. Is that really what it boils down to man than theirs is huge body of research from social science. Over a hundred years, it shows one of the single worse things forward the outcome of a human in terms of health, education, Income, and so on is being born in. To a place where your literally not wanted, because you're gonna get fewer resources and so on. So that was the argument behind the peace in freak anomalies. It was controversial because it involves abortion and crime and classes But you know we wrote a whole chapter about it when you can devote a chapter to something. What we try to do is give every person in opera. We need to understand the cause and effect and Intel and that this is not about whether you think abortion is a worthwhile thing to have available legally or not. It's not asking you to rethink what crime is its trying to under and how the world actually works and that this was cause and effect that we ve identified as the jet and then you can.
Still think exactly the way you used to think about abortion in crime. But now you know, I think I read a quote from you. That said: yes, if your pro life you're, obviously immediately recognising will a million deaths a year should be factored into the crime rate in that in itself? said skewed. If you're of that opinion guide and put it exactly that way, but the way we put it was kind of the opposite, which is even if you think that abortion is the greatest crime fighting tool ever invented, which is not the argument we may, but even if you thought that, in terms of efficiency, it's terrible, because there is a lot of abortion and lowering somewhat of the crime rate million. If, if you're looking, for as a kind of choice the lower crime, it's not a very efficient way to say nothing. Of any moral or ethical implications, rights, It was controversial, but we ve taken much more. He and heat for other ways: silly stay to arms, if you dare
we are supported by better help. Sometimes life is stressful and hard and we could use help but may not know how or where to ask for ever feeling stressed or depressed or want professional help with anxiety, insomnia or any issue affecting your well being better. Help is available that helps online counselling offers licence professional therapists who specialise in many different areas, including anxiety and depression, plus, better help couldn't be more convenient. You simply fill out a questionnaire to help assess your needs and get match with accounts or you'll love in less than twenty four hours easily schedule secure video and phone sessions with new therapies, cliffs securely exchange, unlimited messages. If, for any reason, you're unhappy with your counselor, you can request a new one at any time for no additional charge professional help when you want it wherever you are better help, is a truly affordable option and our listeners get ten percent off their first month with the discount kodaks. So when I get started a day, go to better help, dot com, Slash Dax, that's better help dot com, slashed acts, we are supported by the legacy box legacy boxes, a super simple mail in service to have all your home movies and pictures digitally preserved and a thumb Dr Dvd or the cloud have you tackled all your spring cleaning chores this year. What's on your list, cleaning up the grudge, the basement, digitizing, aging tapes and photos or video tapes and pictures were made to stand the test of time. Plus there are at risk of heat mould and fire. You know you need to digitally preserve these, but you're not sure where to start legacy. Buckskin help you digitally de clutter. It's the easiest way to check off this important spring cleaning chore, because Legacy box takes care of everything. I love legacy box because I am able to share with such ease. All of these family photos over the internet, not demand digital, sound, nice. That's the best part is the sharing of my process from start to finish so easy you pack and send their team digitize is everything by hand you get back perfectly preserve digital copies and thumb, Dr Dvd, or the cloud order. Your legacy box today to take advantage of legacy boxes spring cleaning sail for a limited time taken incredible. Fifty percent or prices start at thirty four. Ninety nine, with this awesome deal by today, to take advantage of this exclusive offer send in when you read, goaded legacy box, dot, com, slashed Dax in Say fifty percent. While supplies last,
remember when we pulled super for economics. Are second book we'd written about the perils of drunk walking ok, so we ve done this analysis that showed that you know, obviously is about concern about drunk driving and, let me say for very, very good since that date on this are really clear, but I think the odds of being involved in a fatal accident or some like thirteen times greater, if someone's been drinking and that's not a victim was event real, genuine or someone else. But it turns out that if you have to make the choice, between driving one mile drunken walking one mile drunk but you're, actually, much more at risk of dying by walk. Oh, and also interesting, is that if you look like the data from, I believe it's from needs of the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration, they ve and this is starting to make the news pedestrian deaths in America are at. I think an all too
hi, oh no, she was out of people- are still there their phone. Well, they don't really know, but the data on impaired walking is not great for a lot of different reasons, but that certainly one reason can I,
guess when people walk a mild drunk what what's the number one killer. In that case, they fallen at their head or I can answer definitively, but I would gather the more common thing. Is that you're walking into a loaded darnay hit by war? I mean you know the extreme example be well I'm drunk. I'm just gonna lie down here and take, though, naturally have to be in the middle of all. Can I try and do not want my girlfriend carry Sate pricey, my liven Aaron's. We want the middle very desolate row we were even snow would come so comfortable, though, that the alibi was warm, your very wrong. You know you can see how it happens. Ok, so that's a good one that you so people were very upset about that they wanted to say you had the agenda same choose dry, ensure aware of better that, even though we were tried to be very careful to say, this is not to endorse that. You know that I mean that the kind of thought experiments that so you go to friends, party friend lives, one mile away, you drink.
More than you thought and I happened to be a zero alcohol. I just have a policy black white line, bright line if I have one drink, if I have any drink, I just don't drive so when I go out, they also live in New York or that's easy that members made life a lot easier. But for me it was always like a little bit fuzzy like wait a minute I can have like a drink and a half and that's ok and am also a lightweight so like after, like one drink, I don't feel like I DR, but the data say the main one and a half is so anyway. The idea would be. Go to a friend's house. A mile away. You drive there, you have a few drinks, think whoa I'm definitely not fit to drive. So I'm going to do the smart thing. I'm going to leave my car here, walk home I'll, come back and get my car, that's the thought experiment
by you would be much more likely to die. So anyone- but you know years- and this is one of the few examples where I can relate sympathise- empathize with people that are living in a more rural parts of the country where they feel like people, don't understand what their life's like. So, where I grew up, I often have the either gotta not have bars or you got, allow drunk driving because I live in a town with one cab. So that's not an get hiring, a cab is not an option so who's driving the people homes either you dont have a bar or be a little more acceptable people gotta get their income in that just seemed like this is a dip proposition, agreeing the reality of that environment, but then one work around the people came up with his well. Ok, what you really my news, not drink alone, you I drink with other people. Then you force one person to be the driver Devon. The letter, no fun, then what you do is you tax. Everybody else, and you say: ok for every round. You know it's a around cause: twenty bucks, beers for four people whatever and then you take up senator that,
say you know, I'm twenty five percent and the person who's gonna drive gets the pocket. That No, you turn it into a little bit of enterprise, and then you got people fighting to be designated drive. That would be a good thing. He basically running his taxi service was drunk friends. Again, you gotta find the incentive for people. There was one, I think, ok, so How does it where on you to be the focus of academic MAC and or public push back. You you do freaking out you have. These chapters in some of them have varying levels of blow back there, I've aired on twitter, something about it being in writing and being in public is hard it's much harder than. If you now having conversation, you point out. None that sent that than the numbers. Half that our gathered. It was some about writing it in being caught
which had been caught on twitter being wrong bunch times. I find it to be very painful and then the admission I was wrong is very painful clia, and so it is wonder you in your line of work with the weight of that. Yet it's a good question I think about. I think about this all the time. The thing we too to do most is obviously did not be wrong and also when you do something in writing. Verses, like you know, live tv, radio or if Europe, a politician, you're giving a talking, you say something. Writing the whole point, not the whole point, but one feature is that you can take your time and be considered and do your research and so on. There is a different expectation exactly yourself is in the public. So what I would say is, I don't think we ve been hold out for being quote wrong. In fact, so much we certainly made factual errors. Everybody does need you just do what you, what you should do, which is you'd, be treated in a look into it, correct it apart
guys etc? I think what we do a lot more often is make an argument based on what we see is the true interpretation, the data and make a conclusion like the drunk walking thing and then often the go back as very unexpected, because people will object on. Level or on a dimension that we had even begun to think about so, for instance, in the drunk walking. I think what what some people objected to it again it with its a relatively tiny number, but their noisy right now that what they objected to was a section that we were blaming the victim that there the best out there who aren't you, behind the wheel of a car and, if they're getting hit, even if they have had something to drink. How dare you say that there are doing something quote wrong. I understand the nature of that argument, but I also
You stand that you know you have to try to approach things with a kind of nuance in surround the episodes of what we actually thought we were saying is, if you think, you're being safe and useful, by not getting in the car and by walking drunk. Instead, that's actually not a good move; either. Instead, it turned out that people thought we were attacking them for doing what they thought was a blue was thing. Similarly, we once wrote, I don't even know. I think this was just a short radio piece about Turkey's, so it turns out that, like ninety nine point, two percent of all Turkey's bread for humankind option in the: U S are the result of artificial insemination yam, and the reason is that America and when they Turkey, they like breast me the white me, so they bread, the turkeys, a bigger and bigger bressani. The breasts have gotten so big that Turkey's physically can't get close enough to
create with each other. They can't articulate the act exact Otto about us as a kind of weird story of lake incentives. The way the market works, could supply and demand etc, and the blow back we receive from that which again had not antics. Needed, but I understood it was. Animal rights advocates who said how dare you talk about this in a kind of dismissive economic argument when, in fact, what you're talking about is an end cruelty store, I hadn't thought about it so but it doesn't have to being either or why does it have to be in either or now? Here's the thing: I've since I've been writing long enough to remember letters to the editor, which was the only way that people used to build respond there. What letters they were for me was you're the writer you spend months or weeks on a peace. You write something he you try your hardest. You try to think of every interesting angle of inquiry and to represent this truth. Fleecy. Can then you re
you do your best and then someone else they have their chance. Like I had my chance now they have, there is to say you're such an idiot. You focused on this. You should have focused on that the internet, The digital revolution allows for a lot more. That the earlier, why used to weed out people? There had some level of work ethic where you sit down with a piece of paper: you'd get the address of fuckin the New York Times and require there is a barrier to enter a good point and other zero barrier to enter it unanimously. As you have the thought you can be expressing it, but after than sort out. So, every time you an episode every week, but an absurd for economic radio in one really useful function. Twitter for me is to see how the world taking yeah yeah and in You get some people say wow, really interesting piece on loneliness. I learned things I didn't know and other people saying wow what a stupid. Who cares about the people who say who cares or that stupid those you read.
for a millisecond. You say: ok, that person is not interested, no problem, but where the feedback is really follows where they say you know you're trying to get it idea and what you neglected to think about was this or this angle with just one two narrower wait, two white or these data are not complete, and so an that's work, be useful, so I personally find feedback mostly either benign or useful, but you do have to. To ignore the kind of all cap shouting stuff right arise not on something that you don't care about. It can be hard to love economics, I love Malcolm Gladwell. I I also can be critical of this. This disincentive to boy let down to a thing right. So in the case of the abortion and crime thing there's Clearly, some amazing correlation that can't be ignored, but also most
Certainly it's a synthesis of so many things right so just by the virtue of pudding, stop of the onus on one thing Obviously, all these other people that know about these other elements that have contributed to. You're going to raise their hands in its own. Just as it may be. The genre of book No, you! I did a fire really important problem. A lot of these things become binary. One and almost nothing in life is binary. That's a little bit my frustration with grow polarization the way the media things unfolding like everything is near, you know so, So when we wrote the chapter that included the abortion argument for economics. It was actually within a chapter called where have all the criminals gone, and we actually, tried to understand why crime fell so much in certain places and in many many american Citys and basically, Abortion was one of I think three or four causal factors that we said did player.
Then there were several other factors that a lot of people thought did play a role that we said the data show that they don't so actually the abortion crime argument was one piece of a sort of big collage of evidence, so we weren't making a super. Rick, narrow, binary argument. We were saying this is one factor. There are some other factors and most important every factor comes with costs and Ben So, for instance, in addition to abortion, seemed never pretty big influence on crime levels. Another thing that was happy sitting in the seventies and eighties, it ultimately drove crime down a lot in the nineties was it we were putting lots and lots and lots of people prison, thou, locking up a lot of people who have committed crimes. Even a very minor, will all Ellie, lower the crime rate, very pretty obvious reasons. Yeah, that's the benefit. If what you're going for his less crime, where the costs
so. You have to assess those in that's what we try to do, which is for the decision that everybody makes you say: what's the cost, what's a benefit? What's tell a story round that, but you re most, people will reduce it to a binary thing and partly that's because it's what they want to believe to be there. Who were not true will also it works for the economy of a story. There are laws to story. We respond different things like there is an inescapable back to what you brought to the table, which is there are some rules in this oral sir, retelling tradition that allowed us to pass on culture and knowledge so that that's all baked in there as well and can't really be ignored. Yeah ended, The other thing I want to say was was driver, neither nails us into the crime rate. Someone pointed out again I've I feel like I've read and consume so much stuff on this, and then I just this was new info to me like as of four months ago, which was like, while the The homicide rate is very misleading, because what you're really seen is an incredible Prague.
Being made on gunshot wounds, emergency room care absolutely virtually a month, people get shot. Does your odds of surviving a gunshot have have gone up substantially and interest, that's a kind of a fringe benefits of having been at war for the past twenty years in Afghanistan and Iraq is so much that medicine got better as a result of that. So we know it's a strange our time David they're. Just you know. I think people acknowledge that humans are just in general, the worst subjects possible for people to study right cause you a we don't tell the truth, not intentionally and otherwise, and There are so many variables in what produces a human behavior yeah medicine. It's hard fucking knew that the field of nutrition and is thus a black box. I think I mean why I believe, though, every six months there's some new. All these studies to me prove is the complexity by which we try,
established, causally, inhuman, behaviors side of, and also when you talk about new tricks and there's a big additional x factor, which is individual variants among human rights metabolism in biology it and the illusion of the average human in the illusion of the average human and in medicine and in diet We did a series called bad medicine. Three part which I felt it was not a bad title, but I felt will back as I really respect and admire many many people in many different parts. The medical field obviously idea, but we looked at. Basically the in which modern medicine is not doing so great, and why of them was away. Clinical trials are done generally, but one really interesting. Opponent of that is that women have been mostly excluded from all farmers. We're gonna get right here for a couple listing reasons having to do with the lead him, for instance, but as a result of that, you know, women's and men's biology is really really did
and so your most interestingly and with ambient exactly and that's what I hear, and it wasn't just about dose it's about the chemical reactions, the yacht, it's different because of the hormonal different, but minimally it's two times is powerful and women as it is, and men great. But it's not over about dose, and we it's at women is by other physiology right processes. So, to me like that's enough, and I don't mean to promote my way of thinking, because I do it it's more like I do. This kind of thing because I believe in it, which is like. I told you guys. I really like you show, because there is a curiosity and a spirit of inquiry, but it's also positive psyche. Ideas like you want to ask questions of people even if they're about dark things are difficult things with the idea that everybody wants to find a way to improve for themselves or for their loved ones, or even God, willing, in the best of all worlds, for their enemies like when that be the best yeah. If people are looking for solutions to help even people that they don't
we were the eye yeah, so that swear, we all get a little bit waylaid when we focused, so on the negative theirs is the idea called the negativity bias you ve probably run across his a book called the power of bad boy. We bow Meister, John cheering? It's about the fact that if every one bad thing you read or believe it takes for her good things to get it back,
zero well in his hand, and can I miss attributed this to Malcolm the other day and maybe was infringe? I can remember a book, I read your they get into the chemistry of that right. So if, as we evolved, you find a fruit tree and ran bloom and you get some dope a mean, for example, and then you find one that has poison free, you eat it, you get cortisol in all these other things in the image of the chemical is stronger, so race, or even that, though, like you could say. Well, it's really good that we get so destroy about bad things because it means we want to improve the world. The flip side is people are given of credit to the good stuff. It's going on, like David Byrne, who we interviewed for this episode about the negativity biased, that'll becomes, relatively soon so I could show american Utopia, which you may be haven't seen it's been on Broadway to New York under this film coming out, and I know you're sick, you see my earthmen, but basically David Byrne with talking heads went from being this kind of, as he puts an anxiety kind of negative younger person who
grew into himself, but he now started this website project called reasons to be cheerful, which is from an old injury song. We are meant to be sarcastic, but like heat who understood that if you go around looking subtle, pinhole at all the terrible things on earth, your most like we do not do a great job of helping yourself or others do better. Now First, we listened to free economics, radio. I it is no wonder to me that that thing is a humongous here, cause it's fantastic new avenues for ten years now, which is so impressive. How annoyed are you at all of us have a fairly lingering the immigrant who came in your level of emigrants? Now we gotta, mostly, I think it's great, I mean- say this. I wouldn't even over, like freaking out It does not sound me, Prima Facie, like a funding, to listen to take we're doing up
than socialism and lonely all eyes? Are the gray? I don't I don't know you have an innate playfulness in fun. In fact, the darker the title, unlike I can't wait power. They always either it's a year even did more daring, magic trick. Then I think you are. You ultimately have this effervescent his joy all the stuff. So I'm like, oh great, you know how he had taken childhood, seek a virus and make it positive. So I think that works in your favour. We're up! Thank you. So I dont think pod Just like a market story like it's good fur. Creative people like you to do a thing, that's adjacent but different, you can have this huge success with it. It is there, but it's enough. Thing to, which is that I think it is what call it journalism or whatever rate its different, in some ways better in the example that I would offer is lake, if I'm right in the old days, a cover story for than your times magazine. Let's say so. I wrote about you know whatever some profile: profiled Steven Spielberg Paul Simon rate,
That's an eight thousand word peace that I would spend may be two or three months working on that it up, and then you write it and you're. The right or new controller, and then the publication controls at manipulates it a little bit more. They choose headline those around and then the Red consumes and what are they getting their getting an image, a portrait that may be great, but it is several the greens removed from the person that's portrayed, in short for sure so like. If I read and eight thousand word piece about, let's say Spielberg how many of his words are in the peace may be fifteen hundred lets. You say if you do a package with Spielberg and it's the equivalent of eight thousand words, how many words or his probably like sixty. And, and additionally now it's three dimensional cause you're actually hearing him and hearing a lot of things in his voice, you hurrying empathy your hearing, humor you hearing, hubris, whatever that's what podcasting is doing that different than other writing that, I think, is magic and that's why I think it's working the weight and sliding in many ways is the antidote to a hundred forty characters
it's the one thing that is its all contacts yeah, but there the right and the other thing is their hearing your tone. So they know you're kidding. We know of your sincere. They know if you like, tired and having a bad day, the debt trap, so the Last thing I want to ask: you: was You are horny for facts. I'm increasingly, though, suspicious of data as being April, it all that numbers are able animal or or dont, have a stance, I'm a little suspicious of interpretation of what seems like data, and I do think again. To criticise my side of the aisle. I think. Quite often we get hung up way more on the accuracy of what the person saying or the data that their incorrect about, and not the emotion that would have made it tantalizing for that to be appealing to them, the first, but I do think we undermine the little bit
the role and importance and relevance of emotional truce, which we ve already touched on a little bit here, and I just wonder how how you have maybe of alternative alder, what your stance on that is yeah. I see that problem and I think it's good to be self reflective herself critical in that way and knowing like what can't carry the day in the cool argument. Like I mean, if you think about like every story. What a story. It sounds kind of benign entertainment, but really every story is an argument in favour of something against something for sharks, so I mean you're, totally Ray, and I mean I'm is guilty of this- is anybody which is that when you find an amazing finding, like, for instance, let's say that I discovered that people who either-
oh go out of their way to never use a plastic bag are also much more likely to kill small animals and pets. Let you say, if I assure you re so counter enjoyed, it would be very tempting to you no frame that in a way that just makes it look, kind of shallow and juvenile and cruel and mocking. So to me like that, beauty of storytelling? Is it's got these different components in it? It's got magnitude. It's got time and it's got. A motion and unless you have all of those, then the story doesn't feel very. Leave also what I mean by that is you know if I say someone is more likely to do ex if they, why well how much more likely- and you have to be really honest about that- one percent more say wound- and you know so magnitude is really important. Time is really important, because a lot of human being,
Your changes for a short time it wears off, because the novelty effect is really strong. So it's gotta, be like you know. If you start treating people better, does it make society better for a long time or do people start game the system and taken manager. That's important, then emotion is important to the thing that I always tell myself about like what you were saying: facts versus story. I think about the Bible, not that I'm so religious. I spent a fair amount of time. Thinking about it. The Bible is the most red book in the history of the world Reign in the Bible. Contains a set of laws, rules, the ten commandments, their views famous set of rules in the history of the world. And then you ask a popular like all american citizens, many of whom have had exposure to the Bible. Name that commandments and the average person good name like two and a half I shall say: wait a minute wait a minute. This is these are the most. Port rules in the biggest book ever in the history of the world,
and you don't know him, but then you say well, let's say you know zero of the commandments. Do you know anything about this book called the Bible and I'll say what I think it was like a guy named Moses and like a burning bush Should this guy? No in the flood, it's the stories our young people and that's the thing that your story, teller, you wanna, explain but not abuse, you want to include the statistics, the facts, the law, the theory etc, but need to surround it in a way that anybody say. I think what a lot of people forget is it. When you're telling the story, you have a kind of inherent leveraged that you can explode. If you want I'm the person getting to tell it what I think you need Who is remember the Euro communicator and, if not about you, you have to imagine in that someone is hearing these words at your saying and help them understand? What's the thing that you want to be understood and that's just basic empathy and it's hard to do if you're soup
arrogant and super narcissistic, and look we're all arrogant, narcissistic to some degree so when I try to do, is just turn those dials down a little better day and become a little bit more. I try to work a lot of it through the marriage lens. If my tells me you never do dishes or that's factually inaccurate adieu do dishes. I could defeat Her position on that. I could point to many times over the last week that it did dishes how many I did Bala in then we could ended there and then I would have miss that she feels like I'm not helping her just because I can defeat summer with data. It doesn't mean that addressed what's going on. It doesn't mean that I'm helping to solve anything, definitely think of this in terms of politics, which is ok, we're married like it her fucking, not no one's getting annexed from this union. We are not splitting up the coast in dividing the country up, we are in a fucking marriage in we're gonna be in this marriage for ever so the question is: do I want to
helped to understand what their feeling it make. The marriage better. Keep screaming that I'm right about the facts, so you're suggesting I like this idea, you're suggesting you take right- the acknowledgement of the marriage paradigm or maybe paradox reassured that being right is no guarantee of either winning an argument or advancing the ball in any way dia then use that for all interpersonal relations it that's pretty interesting. That's pretty good will listen jewish men are the best husband. So I thought I could really appeal dear I presented here must be good at Tom you now during the emotional truth. You know, I think, I'm pretty bad, but I will say this: I've been married, twenty wonder one or so years, and I really feel like in the last two years. I've really started.
Get it. Oh, no, Cuba! I got help so I have a friend Angela Duckworth. He wrote a book called grit she's, a psychology professor at the university pens, I've heard of this book. It's a great book, Karla GUM, valueless, skin knee and exactly I love her winning over the area, so an angel, worth is a good writer and a good thinker, and you know she knows all the psychological research. So Angela we're doing this new pod cast called no stupid questions, the idea being that there are no stupid questions but also used question should be that we asked the question and she let me just like the most basic research based form of dealing with what your desk being, which is when someone expresses discontent with its directed at. You were not listen, Lee is sound so stupid. She plays better literally the first thing to do. Is I hear what you're saying that I dont do any dishes. I hear and acknowledge that and to me that,
they cannot come on right. It come. I was almost paid. However, I am obvious, and but what she said that the underlying motivation in Your wife's thing that way the underlying motivations, not to get your wife or dishes it's to be heard about feeling like you're, not carrying what you need to be carrying to be heard, and so you can say to someone literally, I hear what you're saying about this and then ok explored explore about this simple is the eye message yeah. Genius thing in the world like when you did acts no one can disagree with what ex was shut, the door and laughed Ray. I felt blank. Because you can't really argue how I feel rang, but you can argue all day long what
intention was of shutting the door which is useless. It's all useless, and I hate to say, because I like men, I like women, more whatever it much better. I just think that on average there a little bit better, although men do a lot of things. Great two yetive don't get me wrong, buried a building bridges and very accurate, but but I do think that- is where like. If you're you happen to be a man in the modern world, it's really good, too understand the many ways in which we communicate without thinking at all that are plainly sub optimal oh yeah, but it takes thinking about, and this is where it gets tricky because, like it, the blame someone fur habits that have been society, reinforced fur millennia exact, but that doesn't mean did you send unpack, em and try to do, you're the bucks gotta stop somewhere the eventually and unfortunately, it's probably on us
Men are getting on average a little bit better. Not really. I think we all I don't want to just make it about men, men, they think it's a female problem too. I think we're all a part of the that issue and I like that, we're talking about it a lot now in the pendulum is definitely swung to it may be stream, but I like it. We have to do that. Come back a little bit closer to the metals. I'm happy. I always told my kids when they complain about lake. Some terrible are weird thing happening that that all key actions are over corrections legs raw throughout history, exact. Someone does something terrible and then society wants say we're never gonna. Let anyone even think about doing that terrible thing again and then a wipes out the options for a lot of people, but you know I mean
the way humans. Anyway, I don't work. We come back here again, it's a lot of it just managing expectations with it. I think a lot of people think of everyone in the world thought like they did. It would all work and recognizing at its very best it'll, be a compromise that makes the most amount of people happy. I agree, but I think a lot of people do think of life generally as euro. Some eight. When I agree it's like earlier sacking Adela, the Sea of Microsoft. I think he had this on. I don't know howls specific this record she was. But you know the old days of Microsoft, for instance bill gates density bomber. They both basically treated every company. That was a little bit like them that did business in any realm closely at all related to theirs would consider everybody an enemy the threat to Mario Arrival every single one, so Google Adobe Linux, you Anyone and when such
came again. I don't know how. Specifically this was part of the strategy for what Microsoft is done unless for five years, but they ve a they become much much much much more stressful invaluable last for five years, but one way they ve done it is by saying, instead of you know what Google were sworn enemy and we're never gonna do anything with them when we rather have ten percent. What we might have in this co relationship with Google and read them, be hundred percent rivals one we think about it as an opportunity for us and what to me this is about is means generally we still operate with a lot of paradigms like the zero. Some verses garrulity ion is actually ask our abundance that are ached into us from millennia ago. It's like
were the same hardware pretty much, but our software is like badly outdated. Oh yeah yeah yeah and we can transcend all of these darwinian compulsions, but it just takes a lot of faith and again I just want to point out we ve come full circle in there. What Microsoft is clearly doing is just have a fully often of strategy, not plain defence anymore and ordered for where I have one quick question non SEC, rhetorical question that I thought I did well in USA to use. I know that in a sentence, do you ever veal, because they think yours, A unique type of material put out in the world Giver feel this responsibility like when you write about the drunk walking you do you have I feel like ok, if somebody here's this reads, this then drives drunk and then die.
Eyes or kill someone like do you ever think about the fact that You have the really big power in that way. I think you're, probably over, spending power little guy, but I know so. The truth is yes, you do try to think about it, but then, because human genes are interesting and decision making is weird, you often totally fail to approve how someone might take it and act on it so like to me, entertaining the counterfactual- is really important and the early hard. But I tried using I'm writing the script. You know if you bunch of people, we added it down, we arrange a script. We write at rewrite. It recorded, listen to it than re at a little bit rewrite a little bit. What I you just listen as anybody else. I the minute you hear someone say a word or phrase. Your brain response and you and then you say well, I want to know the next thing based on that and if the host
in this case me doesn't ask that then I'm pissed Adam So that's what you're trying to do is be the person really really really listening the way a therapist would be really listening or the way your wife would be really listening. When you talk about doing the dishes- and it's not about guess it's about that and that's and that by the way, is one thing that I think humans will always be way better out than robots yeah yeah. I agree I dont think one has to account for all the dipshit in the world. I dont think one has to sit on data because I dont ten. Now, how did I get an answer? And I don't think the world could operate like that were were planning all thing.
For the very worst interpretation by the dumbest people in the country. I just don't have thing I don't belong is shared either, but I just wonder all carry any of that it as a human on earth. Let me ask you this: how do they feel about? Are you mediators or not, o s way about again? Do you worry at all about the strain on the whole system that meet put? Some things are not really understand. I think my murdered. My meat consumption is one of several things I do that are morally indefensible. If so, how do you feel about let safe what they call fake meter vegetable plant based me do nothing, that's a good idea. Generally. Yes, I even if you dont consumer, no, I do consumers and I think, they're great and to me that's where I go. That's the republic enemy. That's like you had to make
Fucking delicious ray we're here to do that, you can just say even the fact that we have to call it the republic, the shining out the position, and may I agree, and that's U notes, Pat round the guy that invented impossible foods. That's exactly in his very liberal thinks that the whole point is that meat production is terrible. Yeah and he said, but you can expect to win on the Morrow argument. Yonder I get the wish you can give people a car that doesn't function It doesn't mean all their needs and asked them to use that car. I just don't think you can do that. I saw how do you here's a question I really want to ask is how do you feel about eating insects? Let's say that protein is important and the sex or a great source of it? I am all for. You have illegally minion sets no, but I wouldn't I would do in the second. I understand there. Some like beetle protein powder in their so there's cricket powder by their diet, arrest or at a restaurant in New York. Recently, we taped were doing this episode on discussed. Ah so it's about how discussed works and how there are things that people should.
Disgusted by an aren't. You had in vice versa, and so I went with this guy who's a site, professor, a pen whose kind of the leading authority and discussed, and we went to eat some different insects at this restaurants called them black and blue mexican aircraft with Delicious. I gotta second, so next hundred New York, if you want to go the black Anthony's village and you'll it'll, be everything from like a ball. Full of little Saute, grasshopper ball falling, you see they look like grasshopper earlier, and they It is also like a bowl full of very small ants then have a very interesting flee. Were not antlike at all bake in a flavor. They I've never encountered but pleasant. I then there's also in secular kind of baked into things like little croquettes rest number croquettes. So then, but that conversation, then let us in this case? Okay and this guy,
It is kind of a vegetarian, the site professor. So he has a weird like we all have we're rules like he won't ever order me in a restaurant, but it's when he's with orders meat and can't finish, it will finish is approaching the Jane Goodall Approach, her kind of thing I've. As I understand it, is like me serves this amazing function. Historically, throb Minos of man so so she'll occasion she will when offered by a host. She will she herself go procure it. Order it or whatever, but there are times when socially it's it's to be enjoyed, I hears the big question would eat human is it. Among grew a but cheek in a lab that is human me. I said that seems a little bit too easy for a man of your ability. So what am I think there are instances where people Wilkins
a little bit of the flesh of their loved ones who die. But if I may be wrong in that, but I know that there are cases where people consume the ash. Oh yeah, I saw that episode of my strange addiction. Okay, so let's just say that, along those lines or my wife, a her placenta impel form so that an exemplary ETA. Yet again that does it feel is weird. For summer you from your own body, maybe because this from your own in USA, animals eat their own shit. I'm not not specifically the ship, but that too, but the other animals elite after birth, but can't you just see that, like twenty years from now, someone will have decided that, like eating humans is the single best form of protein and cognitive inspiration. Becomes a thing in the world. Farming them. These are the things why You know in general, I came from a culturally relative discipline in its hard to shake. So I don't, I don't think I'm abolishing yeah, so I dont think I have a stance without more details. Do you now right right rang like that
if I offered you right now, a slice of let's say triceratops, I say I can live without a little slicer that you want to try it little trace upstate. The news, no suffering on your little softly. Is cutting at Pisa Survey, massacres and he was like erect while he was doing. The register is science in talking about you know. Whatever decision making, I say you know where we're going Yes, the ties me and we're gonna just take off a little thin like her. You know like a fool stake sandwich like a little Stephen garbage yoga. Capers yeah, or maybe Monica maybe Monica, is more appealing. I don't know I'm a little older while I'm definitely need her first. If that's, why you never small by the benefit would have to be so extreme right or now. Finally, yes, look I'm not I'm not religious. I dont think that we are different than any other animal on the planet. Really I don't. I don't think that
divine creation, I think well, we are that there is a big gap between divine creation, indifferent from every other any speech I mean we're different in that all animals are different and measurable, and him different. I accuse and have different physical prowess, but we are in animal pier but we have podcast man who all right. We ve done some real fun things, but I'm just saying if you can make an argument see any animal, I dont think you can make an argument not eat any animal. Ok, that's a good argument right there. Thank you that She works yeah lot gonna. My point is like, of course you don't certain members that have no numbers to sustain the eating of them, I don't think people City Rhino. I dont think people the predators item that the a lot of things, but but you can cows and humans, which our billions of both of us, I can't say, if you're willing to one you shouldn't be well, I need the other you're either in eating animals. We are not yeah were the same as cow was the most,
oh composition. While now not just muscle composition, we as beings are the same as cows in the eyes of the planet yeah, but what one person could bring to the table, is different than what one one cow was not going to let it go to my scenario the course Sweden's I'm not killing someone or are causing suffering in someone or or taking someone out of the population that good could be productive. That's what I'm saying you your growing human bodies in attest to without a brain it just meet. If he, if you're in you're kinda into me, and it's sitting at that point. It's just a mental hurdle, you're not willing to step. Over and again I'm saying Morley, I'm wrong. I'm saying the factory farm is a disaster, I'm thinking it is for the environment a clearly. We should all be minimally eating a half or less than four hundred, and eighty question then would become. Why do you do what you do if you feel it sounds like a little bit not guilty about it?
because I have the expectation of myself that I am going to not be moral on some things. I don't think I'm striving to be morally perfect and I think the person that could point out vegetarian that could point out. I'm I'm I'm morally in the wrong it also not pull over and help people, but spare tyres on one side of the road that something I do. But I dont go around the world going well, if you don't pull over and how people put spare tyres on your ear. Morally repugnant, I just go: well: that's strong aspect in your moral suite of behaviors, I have some that are better than yours. You have some that are better than mine, mounting anyone's crushing it across the don't. You think that's a case of moral licensing in your case that you do some things that you feel really good about like posit in the positive moral common. Then there are others that you think, even though, like the mediating, I don't feel great about morally, it's ok, because I'm I'm
and leaning in another dimension. I dont think that I dont think that I'm like net positive. Morally, I'm not equating it that way. I think I use fossil fuels and irresponsible manner. I love motor sports and I think I'm a meaning meat I think that I'm doing he's a meeting on her bad by making pod let us hope well. Stephen. What a fucking pleasure talking to you. I hope at some point I will have I'm not an expert. But you know if you I can ever be at your disposal for free economics. Please call me it would be of a flattering experienced by parliament and by the way, I'm not an expert in it in anything, either accept talking to smart people in figures, stuff out
yeah you're, the mouthpiece for accelerating that's your an expert aware that I don't love, but I'm not gonna everything. I was such a pleasure to welcome you and I hope we can do again thanks thanks Monica and now my favorite part of the show the fact check, with my soul made Monica bad man. This is so fine. Well I also feel that it's a little may be insensitive to say it's fun. It's differ Why is it insensitive because people really are having fun. They dont have jobs, they don't prior next paycheck as coming from their home going their children all day. It's miserable for a lot of people. Anything you can day would want me to be absurd to wiping them. Like all good for you, you're havin, fun, we're gonna Starvin and I found someone just had a big, a rectangle sandwiches extra mayonnaise, pretty happy for them. Anyway, we ve been doing these meetings on zoom meanings and
Aaron and I in others like them on average, is generally nine of us or something, and the eye summed I feel guilty goes Erin I having like the time of our lives because we ve been able to just be with each other. In a long time on love in it are you hiding it no. I dont Haider, but I I recognise the weight of it for so many people who, I think are really really really struggling. I think a lot of people economically are getting very far tinges mentally Emmy people are in our house for two weeks, but when you see those videos of the Italians plan violin on their their balconies and everyone's happy, are you upset that they're happy now. I think they're making the most of our very, very bad situation there That's what I'm doing that also I would feel this honest, not v go my gratitude. So we ve been having these fund meals together as a family, which is also rare and cooking.
Have like extra gratitude for food that I don't normally have like when I made air fried chicken? Yes Raza, oh yes, we still have chicken, the amazing yeah, it definitely elicits granted you'd for sure it? Should I put a magnifying glass on every thing like on everything you touch on everything you interact with on things can't interact with every time. I grab Clorox wipe I'm great, we have today. I opened up one of our jobs and it's like almost empty, and I got it oh sure, is weak, can't get more. They are sought out, they are, but I hope everyone is doing. Ok, you know our armchairs I hold earns. Doing Kay and reminding themselves at its temporary while you're in it to try to focus on the positive things O bill gates sent. I think it was like private email, ok, but christen gotta, the vat and is just put so perfectly
the end he base quickly said, I choose to look at this as not the great disaster, but the great corrector our hearts and the fact that, like yeah like this is making people focus on Families were, you know, will go from this mentality of Access to Minimalist Asia, like all of it, is just correcting our mentality. That's now been ingrained for so long yeah, it's a great perspective shifter, it really is so we had Stephen dubbed nor on his review was so smart an interesting, and it was funny. I didn't notice this when we were recording it, but the conversation just takes so when he left civil police are perfect. Talking part yeah he's happy to just latterly move all over the landscape. Then he knows of original
a little bit, he knows a good amount about most think we're. So he can just ducking in weave duck and we the conversation takes a lot of twisting, which I started laughing at some point, as I just realized like we couldn't keep one topic, going, but it was great you. I was very surprised that I'll enjoy them so much because I loved free economics. The book there was like how People name their kids spot like this explosion of people naming their children Lexus in Mercedes, rarely ass in the vat stuffs, fascinating images, Reims and reams of data on how people naming their kids and how it was like Canada, motivated by social mobility and there the book is phenomenal and I've listened to tons of that podcast before we even had em, but the baby names like hopeful that they will, when you name it,
Maybe something like that. That's high status at their like a choir that kind of stuff. I want you to let him to bestow status on. Do you with the name, because that name itself has status in less than a Mercedes cash money. I don't think I've ever met. Anyone Lexus, ah lacks is sure sure there is a huge amount of babies. Name lacks is really the late nineties. Again it's been fourteen years since I wrote for economic, so I'm hanging on by a thread about how much I remember, but do it's a fascinating rate like I like that money ball starve. Remember: money ball! I love money by you. I just love when, like us, smarts overpower leads me to ask the goody and I do think we take a little due to a right now for tat a king
weren t just like, I think everyone else in the country world is right now, but if you're not you're, not out, it's the first documentary since, while world country that I've been this lustful over, we are If one episode laughed at seven episodes poorly unbelievable little panicky about only being one left. What's really funny is it's almost. The same story is well what country in that? It's just an exploration of escalation of reaction, viewed feud. The movie is a fee Yeah and both people are willing to keep going There are so many layers to this documentary, though it takes about a thousand turns. You have no idea where it's going, all my God, how many things happen, repose it go hold on a second I'm watching a group in a tory already all of a sudden, though it's crazy
I feel, like documentary ends, are the bill gates of yeah zigzag it. As an aside there, like bill gates like its magical, the way these things cut, the good ones hum together, you have to be such a risk. Take her to be a documentary because you're, like a guess, somebody both the next six years to them. person or this concept. Or this thing, and you kind of oh by assume something of all something will happen here by you, no, you don't know, although if you like, get Joe exotic. Yes, that surely terraces, if you look at Joe exotics like last eighteen months, yeah he's got jewelry up to last eighteen months, and you heard what he was up to? You would be certain that a ton more was coming in the next eighteen months. I mean this guy hasn't had a month of his life that didn't involve some incredible theatric. It's true, but you just now. You never know you're taking a risk and even like the ones, stair case and have like big twit,
Some of them have huge tool, it's the end. You cannot predict that you, but I guess that's the hope with all these acumen tyrians that at some point some talkest will emerge a so just Bravo Documentarily hands out there. Round of applause for so many people to be grateful for so many nurses, some doctors, summoning truck drivers, people on logistics, lark, grocery store or farmers, says seven eleven employees, I'm really grateful to all those folks. I am here So if it wasn't clear, I acknowledge that I'm so privilege. Right now we ve been giving people way more than their associate paid and dumb bob. The poor guy tax me that he thought was a clerical air yea tell me a yeah bragging. I want you will know. Yes, I have extra money and were also pain, everybody that no longer is working for us. I not that bad because it
the encouraging other people and businesses. As an example yeah, I think, has only bragging. I do we owe me. We told this and other time christian and I all the time or trying to figure out what do we say so that it feels like Lee Bag ample, but also we get a you're, giving away money like there's a fine law, that surely so either every one just has to like evaluate within, themselves. What I do anything, and I should do that and that can be small. That can be sure Ten dollars, if you have ten dollars to spare Oregon, it can be Oh, very scared that I won't have enough money to get through this. I cannot give anything away. That's fine I would never be on here, being judgmental people or not yet, and also
my favorite aspects of the two thousand eight downturn was there this long, history and Judaism, where, when times are hard, is that's when they're called on to give the Maoist. I forget them, Burma job, but I sought circulating in a lot of my jewish friends, were telling me about it and it's like The big push in those times to be to go against all your fears and be acts. General yeah, and I just think, that's beautiful. Eighty tear you know the test in my mind, is I don't feel any ego bump by saying. I am not proud of myself when I say we're paying people what I promise because I've never been someone who got their approval. Through being generous to strangers, but you have got an approval from having money. How I mean you ve gotten self esteem? for me personally mercilessly big time having access money, and this is a way of saying that you do. Why do
that's a fact riding anyone does and realise that it can give ego boost and that in that way of lake, Gave this even in IRAN about what you're saying I was able to give you. No, I mean yes, but I think we can draw a huge distinction between people taking pictures of themselves getting on a private jet like what do you think of that three? just going. Hey look, I'm I raised my can throw money away for sure, and so, if was doing that. I would feel like. I trust my spidey since I would feel gross about, yeah yeah, I don't feel gross at all all saying, if you are in a position, keep paying people may be overpay them. Whatever a year just doesn't feel like bragging. There are many things I say on here that are straight bragging. Yeah driving skills? All these I'd there's a ton of things I brag about, but for me I can don't feel em. I saw it all that I'm like bragging idea.
If I'm honest at all times, I will come out ahead ethically for myself, so like if I got on your neck like us, having a terrible time in the corn team, I would be lying. I would be being on true to be sympathetic to people who are? suffering, and I know I don't think that's right don't. Thank me lying. You know that baby, that's extremes, hereafter lie it. It's the presentation you can say I Personally, I am having a lot of gratitude. I know we're all living together and that's a nice change and I am appreciating all these things but till I say I'm having so much fine, though to sound different to me. Like someone exonerated, you cause, you got a house. I basically feel bad about those like fuck. You like someone wrote like, I feel so good those that were supposed to be excited that Monica bought a house because we listen and I was like what you didn't fuck and pay for,
how's the shows for free and fuck. You like, I don't If you can't be excited Monica gotta House, because you didn't get a house, that's your shit right. I don't see the court. Nation will someone's an ongoing. I fucking hate taxes he's having fun binding. Anyone should say I hate Dax cause he's having fun, but I think they might think like all good for you you're having fun, I can't pay my ran to I cant. Do you know just now. I think I can stir up, like I told you with you. But my question is: is that my promise that person's problem? But it's a little bit, tone down to the world is a real thing. Would I'm me, but I'm recognising that it's terrible for a lot of people isn't that the broad I'm just trying to isolate. What is the actual objectionable thing because I might agree
but I just want to. I want to hang on exactly what it is issues into me. It just feels insensitive. It's in sensitive to what other people might be going through to be like. I I got like, you see a funeral procession and an errand and iron motorcycles and we're having like time of our life, and then we write a wielded by the funeral procession in your life interest all right I'll be just don't do that during the funeral. Brazilian, that's pretty but I can I and we were screen I feel so good to be alive, I just I nor part of me is like I want everyone, that's feeling good to building global, so many pressures did not feel good year. I agree and now I know that you don't feel bad there's a different largely. I do feel bad for the people who are in fact right now. No, no I'm saying no one's asking you personally to have a bad time right by maybe
don't just like, run around blogging about how grey of a time you're, having all going through the exact same situation right now, and it's affecting people in vastly different ways so it just it bike shine a light on how did for an income inequality, all the thing so yeah and so yeah, maybe just be little censored, I'm ok, we gotta start there's you remember so maple syrup paste. You said in the two: thousands that's right over the corset several months between two thousand eleven two thousand twelve noon A hundred and twenty two thousand barrels were stolen in a suspect did inside her job from F p. Q facilities in Quebec, the surplus stored and unmarked white metal barrels inspected only once a year thieves used. actually, transport barrels who remote Sugar Shack, where they siphoned off
maple syrup refilled. The barrels with water then return them to the facility as the operation programme, the thieves started, Cyprus Sir Sirop, directly off barrels in the reserve without refilling them the stones was track to the South Vermont an EAST New Brunswick. Where it was trafficked in many small batches to reduce suspicion is typically saw D. Did emits Europe distributors who were unaware of its origin. God s crazy, is right. Yeah, a highly critical eye like obviously, a lab oceans. Eleven d, I love haste to was the secret. Fourchan built on prohibition, era, smuggling, Oh yeah, he and I are the worst for you swore bulges. How I find ago. I now read
though the versatile bronfman and his brothers went into the mail order: business shipping whisky by rail. When the government ban the mail order business but said it was legal to sell alcohol as medicine, the Brockman just slapped on new label such as rock by coughed, cure and liver and kidney cure. With the passage of the votes act in nineteen nineteen making and drinking liquor became illegal in the United States, opening up a lucrative new market for the broad and rather than reduce alcohol consumption prohibitions. Seem to stimulate it as more and more american succumb to the temptation of this newly forbidden fruit. The liquor kept flowing now controlled by gangsters, the gangsters, constantly looking for more alcohol in the broad men's had it, although the sale of liquor for you within Canada was prohibited. Can aid the authorities did not ban its exports to the United States, in fact, to the government almost encouraged it because of the tremendous tat revenue generated. Ok,
on cycle toil a word now: Obama TAT a lot of people say it like. I use nonplussed in a way that offends people, because the original definition means basically the opposite of how I use it, but so many people in America use the way I use it. It is a definition in rarely yes, so a lot of people complain when I use it and then I that I was nonplussed like I was not bothered by it, but it actually originally means very bothered It also means not bothered answer. I always screen shot the definition from Webster and I respond with the strange injurious day. So in that way, I bet we could do is use it enough. Eventually, though, the right now tat- I am, he said he said yelled. I dont actually remember why he said he said guild and then he said I don't know whatever you killed. I don't I don't remember, back gelding means castrating a male animals,
Oh yeah, I, sugar, gelded. Ok, let me tell really funny Joker. Martin mall told me Mart Malta phenomenal actors. He was on the ranch a higher than he is an episode of buses. Mass is also a painter he's. Also the was amazing bank yeah wherever he does he's photo realistic paintings that are impossible, that they're not photos. is he told me, this joke? There's a man at a used. Car lot needs looking at a car up and down he's taken the tires and then the idea the salesman comes and he says you thinkin- about buying a car in the man's- is now I'm thinkin about women but yeah. I need to buy a car, so I'm here to get what they did so sums up man in general yeah we're thinking about women like ninety percent of the day, and so many times. I have thought with my friends. We ve talked about like just the amount of brain power that would be opened up. If you dig castrate I mean you could be here is wrong. You think you would. It would fix the
mentality, I have no idea, I don't really know how well here's what I do know about castration when you castrate a Pitbull, it's far less likely to bite child face off and bull unless you can have all around right? Somehow there d testosterone goes way now, the balls, that's where its being made it must be made. It is, I think it has been made. Mcgowan, yeah, yeah, Holly Y yeah. Soon you can't be bull with balls, any of kill you but there was energy Gazprom there like we're, not pleasant, but they're they're not lethal in the dark and tiger king. You know, there's a lot of humans, interacting with big cats in five hundred Blantyre insane animals and for what when they're just so gorgeous. These animals are impossible. Looking it look like a kid drew a pit,
of a just, a random beast. Came the life Obese also There are so many people in this documentary around these tigers and lions and tigers, and I wondering how many people would be comfortable being within five feet: social thanks a lot of a tiger. I would not know mediator either me. Maybe I am terrified of those things that I get a lot of people. Would those selling these services as tourism yeah and, like all these people want alarm level tiger exactly they want to hold the key, and I mean they are really q
the Cubs it yeah yeah. They are again. I know one embarrass anyone whose gotten their picture taken where the tiger has again, you don't really know everything behind. If that's true that this share, but also leak. It's really now that you know it's pretty embarrassing. That arose third feature it with Tiger. I guess I don't know bridges man so very animals. I guess I lie to the but they're out in their there in their early. That's the difference is I mean? Oh, I do think about. Poverty so cute like a little baby. So cute have fun. Let's do it, there's just oblivious, it's not really embarrassing, they're, just not thinking. It through as ok! So how did these tigers gay here shouldn't they beyond the y? All are they being mistreated, and you know it just occurred to me? Is this isn't a hypothetical question for me because The animal wrangler we hired for hit run to bring people. He shows up the pit.
All this very standard practice on a movie and then I'm nowhere? Ngos goes hey. I gotta baby Tiger in my back in my car. Would you like to hold it in? I I didn't want to hold it. In fact, I didn't hold it, but I felt client, like the guy, was so excited that my codependent he was like all go. Look at this thing. This is really important that guy and he handed, the Bradley in aid, a pitcher and then he sold that bid. You do a tab long now and then, after the movie wrapped, I got a call from a federal investigator wanting to meet with me to talk about it. I'm like look me an idle. Anything about that guy. I didn't higher that guy's, we hire them. They have no knowledge other than I met him in a parking lot and he had a tiger and he wanted us to hold it. But I had no desire to hold that time and I dont think Cooper had one either he just get shoved in his hands.
And he snapped a pig. Oh no was the worse outcome. Imaginable was Joe exotic I wish I were held. It probably have no always o charismatic. You would have convinced me that I'd be more like him. I held them So is there a plastic bag ban in California? you said I got a few, I got lived there because I see them in fact yesterday. I got chicken from the grocery store and they put it in a plastic bag. Dresses Duff was in paper bags what they put chicken in them. Well, yes, so in August two thousand fourteen California became the first state to enact legislation imposing estate wide ban on single use, plastic bags at large retail stores Van in two thousand and eighteen eighteen sixteen and two thousand sixteen. That vote was back up on the ballot and it did get
held. So California, voters upheld the state law prohibiting single use, plastic grocery bags. Environmentalist declare victory. Business groups cried government overreach by it, still shopping bags made from plastic. Film remain commonplace in Czech outlines across the state. That's because contains an exception. Pushed by lobbies four grocers and some plastic companies that allows stores to sell thicker plastic bags for ten cents. The new, while classified as re usable, closely, resembled their single use predecessors and are often thrown away after one transaction still days has by the law, because technically they can be used a hundred twenty five times without falling apart That makes sense as this one was some, it was nice and thick. So they're just thicker loophole John Ambien members. As women. You said it's two times powerful women as it is man, yes, that true twice times powerful
yeah see. You were right about that, but let me tell you something you were really wrong about, so I really do. This is a big time fact check. Ok, J, good all is a vegetarian she's, not a some times. I my ye meat, if its honour, I will restaurants or something she wrote an article about this. I stopped eating meat. Some fifty years ago, when I looked at the porch up on my play in thought, this represents fear pain death. That did it became an instant there, Terry. She looks like it's a whole article about why you should become a vegetarian For all these reasons, and more I took chose to became a vegetarian all those years ago. I continue to ask people to consider what this choice really means on a moral and practical level for animals and the environment. Is the tree to change our individual lives, which will in turn have enormous benefits for all of humanity and all of the other living creatures we share our homework. Shiva. Has whole like pledge What's the plan she's encouraging people eat meat, lesser it's an! I eat, meat, less pledge organism,
we that's her met. That's where I got the busy Henny said. I'm doing this per Jane. Goodall may be part of the pledges do it it. Ceremonial, I think the pledges like What you can to reduce as much as possible to get as close to vegetarianism as she herself? Is it out you even on Thanksgiving, ok He's begin of thanksgiving grew transition. He's a ninety nine point. Two percent of Turkey's are bred for human some should in the? U S, r, officially inseminated. Yes, everything around is, like all everyone sing, all ok, so he gave the reason eying as we like specific parts of the Turkey brass like that, so they have to get really big time circles it yeah, but that a lot of what
are also saying. Is natural mating puts the female risk of injury in commercial ME markets, the male Turkey's aren't, I think, they're gentle yeah, colonel aggressive physicists. Artificial insemination is widely used to overcome low fertility in commercial. Turkey's which results from successful meeting as a consequence, a large, heavily muscled birds being unable to physically you believe the mating press? Ok? Is? There culture where people eat a little bit of dead, loved ones, the four or for a f o r e people can, I guess, we're therefrom to Papua New Guinea. Yes, so yeah how'd! You know why, because there, the famous can't they had some cannibalism right. Historically, a once isolated tribe and Eastern Papua New Guinea had a long standing tradition of more to area beasts.
the dead from their own community at funerals. Men consumed the flesh of their deceased relatives where women and children eat the brain, Oh wow, it visiting ration of respect for the lost loved ones, but the practice weakened havoc on the communities they left behind. That's because a deadly I feel that lives and brains was spreading to the women who ate them, causing a horrible degenerative illness called Kourou met at one point killed two percent of the population each year. Oh my cooking, or maybe the molecule men. Only there again, I think they're just eat lacks I've. I can't I'm no idea how they are preparing an say that I'm culture, relatives I can use any prejudices. What they are doing, it should show our pedestrian deaths at an all time high, despite the decrease in overall that's pedestrian. Bicyclists fatalities, continued arise, morbid lesbians and cyclists were killed in two thousand than in any in any years since nineteen ninety deaths of pedestrians have jump
forty, two percent in the last decade, even as the combined number of all other traffic deaths has fallen by eight percent. Oh, I gotta be cell phones. I think it has to be worthy of words. Yet Self well that's all. Those years ago there was a big juicy yeah yeah, you guys are thrown out a lot of facts. I probably skipped some, sorry, but you got a lot of them,
Transcript generated on 2020-04-15.