We Are Supported By, hosted by Kristen Bell and Monica Padman is a 10 episode limited series podcast. Each episode deep dives with a woman who has put a crack in the glass ceiling. Episode 6: Esther Duflo
This is an unofficial transcript meant for reference. Accuracy is not guaranteed.
We are supported by is brought to buy, Chevaler lay find new roads, hi mom, hi be worried it. I am pretty good. I have a little bit of a head call now, I'm sorry that happen. That's all right! That's what happens when you live with feral children. They godsend, unlike lick the dirt, and then you get ahead cold and, as I covered, we got ass. We did get hasn't cause. You know they are saying, with this very useful to get tested. If you have a sore throw the symptoms are different, so I was yeah Toy, let's get tested, and it was obviously nervous that twenty four hours waiting, but it's not. Can I ask you a real talk question on represent. How do you feel about deltas name being Delta right now? It's a bummer yeah, it's a big baby, but I'm really hoping that the delta variant won't be as strong as the original cove at him. Yeah still say: Corona I mean, as a bummer fur
Corona you're, the beer company and I don't have any things- called covert, fizzling adieu, vague company, but has been started. Yet, if not, it's gonna burn your at civilian dollar idea in a bit like could be like a germ free bacteria, free like protector dovey company, wow Vivid cove yeah, because I think you're thinking of do bay, the r d yeah Ovid do further and which is weird cause? I've never called it either of those things. You know what I call it a Jenna. That's all my, this family Pegana and it took me for ever. the like, remember to say, dovey or comfort, her, because I so recklessly said Pollyanna it sound sexual sounds like a female body par a kind of does, but debates can be actual. Ok It is a bummer that it's her name to be honoured,
she's, sick, so she's impressed every time she seemed like a Delta airlines, adder evenings she set her. Oh my gosh, my name so every time she hears anyone talk about the variant she's like my life, good, ok, she's, so excited about it. May be it's a good thing, because her lives really easy. This is true cause she's from adversity, she's, privileged she's privileged, and he's, got a lotta charisma, little ball of magic and she gets away with ever The thing was that so she can either give you puppet otherwise or make you laugh and because of that, her life is too easy. So maybe she doesn't this to follow her around forever uttering the train tells Borg S today. This is a big one. Esther do flow, He is a french american developmental economist. She is a professor of poverty alleviation and developmental economics at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology. Some people were further that, as am I, He runs right, which you know too,
the smartest place in the world. Where will hunting worked so obvious. Obviously, she's also the co founder Encoder Rector of J Power, which is poverty, action lab. She is a Nobel Prize winner, economic studies, the first woman. and she shared it with her husband and Michael Cramer for their experimental approach to alleviating global poverty, and I learned so much during this interview? I don't numbers or math or anything end. Elemental economics? Is really interesting because shall take a problem like why aren't these? kids learning in school, but she'll look at it through the lens of like whose eating breakfast tally. Those numbers drives a long way to school. Are they sleeping enough tally those numbers, so she can kind of solve any problems and I didn't realize that math could help people yeah that she's using a very-
right, brained scheduled to solve of kind of left brain problem, he has a weird thing: she's amazing, it was I understand that you guys are all of this and she's got a very strong right and left brain, which normally people are one or the other, but she is incredibly strong in both sides: and that is one of the reasons she is such an amazing interview. We, supported by Esther do flow. We supported by is supported by tee an jerry's, organic eggs. We all know it can be difficult to choose the right eggs right and they all of the same yeah. That's the trick, but they're not the say no, when they pay way different, they do, but our sponsor beaten, Jerry's organic eggs takes the guesswork IDA buying eggs because of their best in class. Organic farming practices paired with the highest animal welfare standards, which is Barry listen to me. Yes, like, I really need to know that animal had a good life. It's karma it in and it really is hard to know cause a lot of things- are labelled as such
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Big guns, you maybe, there. I, how you so good. Thank you so much for joining us. I know it's been a lot of back and forth sketch Billina were so very easy at all. You re dime for as second woman to win the Nobel Prize in Economics. Only first female economist, so there's a fur Then there is well there's a second and a first to titles. Also only fifty seven women
poodle have won the Nobel Prize, which is crazy, since one thousand nine hundred and one yes yeah an economics. I think it's been eighty six in total people but to women to womanhood asked one being, as you pointed out, the political scientist yeah. Domini go ahead and say to up to eighty six. That's love, not we're. Doesn't The numbers are too that's not a great percentage, not spectacular. I gotta question right off the bat, because this is really interesting. To me since I'm like not a numbers person, I'm a feelings person. So everything in the world goes through a feelings, filter numbers are very hard for me, I'm so I have one of those people that psych- oh, no, I don't I don't really care of my kids are good at math. I just want them to be kind people, but in reading about you I realized. I am incorrect cause there's so much that
comes from being able to do the math about things. And would you explain to us why economics is so important why it actually factors into every part of our lives it's a first, I would say you're not incorrect in that there are many ways to succeed in life that do not involve math. I help you useful and productive and transformation. That not involve mess. That said, I also ways that mass can be put to good use too were to change the world. An economic is actually one of them where economics is in every topic that we care about. Think about racism. Think about climate change. Think about globalization think about the pandemic and its impact on the poor countries on poor people within our countries. All of that are subjects which are their car economic subjects. They are about
people make decisions, how resources are allocated, how we make difficult tradeoffs and that's what economics is about an hour. When we think about economics as all it's about inflation and gdp and the stock market, and many young people perhaps rightly have no interested said things get at it. Best for me to talk about interest rates and I'm like I'll see after this nap, but it does I would share that lack of interest and have it almost put me out of economics when I first started, because I see this
so boring what they want to do. But it turns out that economics is so much more than that and that most economists do not stood sums economy, steady interested and we need some people to study interest rates, a great all power to them. But many economies do not did interest rate whatsoever. There, steady education, Bestead E Health, their steady, how to convince people to use less electricity or how to convince people to get vaccinated wise it there At police are more likely to arrest black people and white people. Is it because black people commit more offences? Always it also because there is an inherent bears and believe it or not. These are questions that the tools of economics can help us address and for me I decided to stick to economics, because I've always
in hoping to make a difference in the life of the world's poorest people. An economics is also a tool to help us do that in particular. It has helped me think about what programmes I can work, what programmes do not work in terms of fighting poverty, quiz partners on the ground to help them evaluate their programmes and try what was effected let's not effective, so that we can scale up what's effective and not get up. What's not why I love is that you? it started out risen, spy, saying like oh I'm not in the map or my good man, but I think would so funny as a sort of inherently part of this whole gender issue. I think, like girls from the Gatt GO are told,
may not be for you. Maybe you stay away from it, and also math is just hard for everyone. So at the beginning, I think is hard for everyone boys, our great attic girls aren't great at it, but the boys are encouraged to continue and until it you'll get this you'll get this evening, it's just subconsciously because the groups their seeing you are, I'm minus you and a few other women, the groups their seeing in like graduating classes- and you know above are all men, and so that's gotta be hard. It that's even just subconsciously for a girl who likes math, even if it's really really hard or stimulated by it to want to proceed. I was more authority, here's a role models and, thank goodness for people like you, hoo hoo, and show that it works can tell you girls like oh, it's good be hard. That doesn't mean you're not going to be good at it, but also
that there is more to it like yet. You explained like I have all these feelings, I think, of a global poverty, as I'm falling asleep at night and like I've, gotta figure out what to do, and sometimes that's the end of the sentence and there's no further thought on it, be as I don't have the math backup of like what I dont know. What to do. Do you sort of feel like you're may be like the silent private investigator for all of the world's problems like everybody's, like we want to help neurotic admiring? Yet you are usually allow Veronica. Because you're like yet I've got some stuff to solve this. Like I've got the answers. When everybody has the feelings, do you ever feel like the condiments they're not like turned to very often down tell him to Father on sales, because people have lost a little bit confidence in economist? So if you asked what are the experts there really believe in the devil, trust about their own field of expertise, economies very, very, very low. The only lower people- politicians- oh, why
this: isn't doctors, everybody trusts, sign in general. People also trust historians, whether men in whether people is twice as high as a trusty Nicodemus stop twice as high twice as high as twenty five percent of people. report and its support that was done in the UK and in a very similar one in the U S in those two countries, twenty five percent of people of a pot trusting economist about economics, whereas fifty per cent of people they bought trust. In whether people about the weather model. That gives you a sense of the level of trust we are really gonna need an impact. I think there are many reasons for that, but One of the reasons is what you're saying about I dont understand master. I dont understand what they do, and this is something complicated that it's all kind of Hocus Pocus and does not to do with my life in part. It's because people, mostly thinking
But let me seven the business of forecasting and you're gonna me what's gonna happen in the future and we are really really really bad at it. Backed every book yeah, it meaning professional forecast of any good. I missed out just not very good at forecasting and in TAT its because most economists have to prompt to say that they have the answer to all of their problems. So going back to your question, no, I dont think I want to present my serve as someone who was the answer. I think what they want to present myself as someone who has the tools that can help you or anyone who is active in the ground, realize if they happen to have the answer. So what we do in my lab, I have an app called Jemmy Poverty action, which is really a network of now. It does five hundred researchers all around the world and what we do is we work with partners who have a projects, for example,
Wonderful organisation working on education in India could put them and we work with. and then they have an idea of. Why is it that kid's of issues in schools, even when they go to school and we are there, I'm not to tell them. This is what you should do. We are there to hear what they do and then work with them to set up an experiment to see if it works the way the plan for it to work. So what we do is that we say: look: let's treat your innovation like a vaccine or like a drug. We have to try. It is. How did we test for the coroner's vaccine? We do under my control trial, so we take a sample of fifty thousand people and some of them got the vaccine and some of them got a placebo and therefore you can compare the chance to be infected in both corpse
You see a difference. You know it's because of directing, because people were chosen randomly and therefore exactly see me now. Well what I do in my work as that and what we do all due at the poverty extra memory that we are trying to do the same thing, but for any the ideas that are useful in people's life. A new idea to improve, tell kids down in school so far to go back with the example of press them when I first met them The idea was that we need to teach at the right level. We need to teach kids that are in front of us. We don't need to try and complete the curriculum when kids out just so, ass. I have no idea and honest and what's going on so that was the idea and they had a programme to do that via can survive. media education and what we did is worked with them to set up a number of experiment where we could demonstrate that why these
I'm really early works because we tried it in hundreds of schools and then thousands of schools, and we can see that the kids who benefit from this programme do much better than similar kids who and gotten it yet and the advantages that, after that, you do have an answer, and it's not me Who was the answer? Is president who has the answer, but I was able to demonstrate that it's a good answer with their help and then once you have, that answer is very simple: to explain its like the vaccine. You know it works here, so we can take this idea and- and it'd to govern manned and take it to Ngos and get it scaled up, and I used to that. It reaches millions of today, this programme of condemn it reaches millions children in India and it is now being scaled up across several countries in Africa.
and the answer I didn't come up with all I did- is kind of facilitate the demonstration of the answer so that it can then easily be adopted in other places when it works, but you're like the calculator like the one that can say. But yes, you have an idea and a wonder: does this work and I am the person that could tell you this It work- or this might not work or at least give you more data, and I just he'll, like the reliance on economists. Like you said the trust factor I mean look. I barely trust my weatherman. I think his name is spice Lindh and I just want you like. I can't I can't begin to trust a name like that. Flips Iceland, by that are made up now I'll, send you a fish. Does If frustrate, you cause, you were one of the youngest faculty members to be awarded tenure at MIT and when you have all these labels, that should make you this shining
are the people go to end. There are a lot of economists like that, but sometimes when the general public doesn't trust economists to get free straining when you know that your soul, bowl in your heart, is to help people, you know not Tralee, because I think we need to on that trust, and I think each of us in our work and to earn that trust by doing work. That is relevant. useful, so I do think it a little bit unfair their level of mistrust via economies, because I think it was pleasant to some extent on vision of what they gonna miss do and are a recently. We or the pork could good economics for hot time, which was trying to be a bit of a loudspeaker for what economy is doing a reality, so that maybe I could understand and get familiarised with all of the type of different work and also the diversity of reserves in the and the fact that people work with IRAN a fact. But I think it is on.
As it gotta meet to undeceive us it's not on us to expect that is going to come. Naturally, in my own work, I started about working with with others. to allow Michael Cramer, Unabridged Bernajoux, who got the Nobel Prize with me. I started working doing dishonor most control trials and very quickly. We realise that if we wanted to make a difference Not only do we have to do the research, but we have to have an institution that will help to defuse the product of this research and the results to the Please you make out and to the public and to the end, you so that these results become useful and never did I take for granted dead. I come up with a shiny new paper and publish it somewhere,
then people will immediately say all this is wonderful. We are going to do that. You must be corrected because you were published in it in his journal was equations and an tapers. That's. I think the one thing that we understood Ali, that it is our job to go towards policymakers and we ve been successful in doing it. Today, we ve reached four hundred million people around the world with policies that, at some point we have found to be effective. Wow and that's a big we it's like two five hundred of us but started out as ADA be right. It started up aid of us and then its days, five hundred of us plus all of the people who worked with this and yours do they feel staff etc. It is not nothing, so you feel that it makes a difference. Eventually, you touch I have by just going innocence by had adopting this more humble approach, which is a I dont have the answer, but I can help you find out. If you do.
and be once we ve done, that we ve done it from a particular problem, so I dont have to hope to have served the entire global poverty, but I can cut it in March. Manageable issues, and one by one. I think we can make some progress in. It adds up, for example, over the last fifty years before the coroner, biased, as is their wearily wherever a lot of progress made in the life of the very poor. For example, infant mortality goes cut in half maternal mortality, got cut in half, almost all of the kids are around the world, go to school or went to school before the coffee crisis. So the improvement in many of the practical every day aspect of the life of people in poverty- and this is due in large part to my forecasts on
concrete, will achieve a bird solvable issues over the last few years, which has created a window and an opening for us to be useful, and my hope in life is to be useful. Well here, six so I found that the way of finding influence so to speak. It is to not Joe up and down, and yet you listen to me. I've got the answer, but it's to establish Water in one little corner. Make progress there and then somehow the world spread that all these people they actually have something to bring to the problem.
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the port it. I want to just highlight some think. As you said it a couple times that often in general economists have this like. I have all the answers. We have all the answers we can predict, I mean not to get to gendered, but that is a chump male quality. Were you saying that that's what people think about economists or what some economists think about themselves like this lack of ego that you're showing us right now. I like where you ve, just separated it you're, like I, don't, have the answers, I'm ready to admit that is that car men in your field? Do you think I think that's a female perspective, your bringing to the table that's different. It depends a bit on sub field of economics and you're right that in development economics, which is very
man and, I should say very friendly people like me, I would say, which is quite agnostic, quite open about what No, we don't know and in particular the vast extent of what they don't know and quite determined to take a little piece of the problem really try to address it here, and there are two reasons why development is a more female field than other field. If he can makes, for example, my call, which is Tito very mail to India, did the first one. Is that a lot of fur? man, I'm sorry to say stereotyped. But I think it is a party guy Quint, but a lot of young women are really interested in changing the wall and making a difference and that's why you're out of them actually don going economics because they think that's not where they go makes does, but if they do, then they choose
field, where you can have an immediate impact like development economics are studying a public policies in in the: U S are studying social issues like racism and discrimination. That's where you going to see woman to extend the two economic stature to freely choose to be good. That's why they ve gone into the field, and I think one way to get more young women to choose economics as It is actually to demonstrate that this is actually a big backed up. It get em important when undergoing one The second reason why you see my woman in this field is that they are marked eyes by this more humble brick by brick approach. Let me take one problem admit what I don't know
and let me be guided by the evidence and a fact and what I can learn from others who have been working in this area for a long time. So that's what makes development economics not only it's a fantastic subject, because what could be more important to try to sort of global poverty and to improve the life of people who live in poverty, but it also makes very very pleasant, feel to ban because most people will share, to fix your one to be passionate and very ambitious in terms of their objective, but the others do not put their ego into the problem. Yeah and I dont want alike, blame the men, its mainly society its. we tell men that it's good for them to have all the answers but they should that if they do, on their weak and we tell of women who making people feel stupid when they don't have the answers, even as kids like there's all these in a children's books. Now trying to drill in the lead
then, like it's cool to say I dont know, because then you can wonder about something together, yeah for sure, but I think we do that more to man, like that's a fault of ours, that we place on boys more than we place on girls on girls. We amplify I know you're, and so it's not a surprise to. e that the women who choose economics choose. The kind of or ring form of it. I don't know I just find a kind of interesting The layers underneath that lead to these decisions. Yet exactly I fully, It was you that there is no reason to think it's like algae, knowing the biology. But this is what being extended and girls from the very beginning, yeah and related to what you were saying: audio about the attitude of boys and girls with respect to mathematics and to stay.
In general, for example, when girls and boys are faced with the same hard problem, a girls will tend to conclude that she's in good at mass cause, she's a girl. After all, God, I'm not good at mass yeah where's. The boys will tend to conclude that he's good at myself. I should try harder and fight dissolution, exactly I in fact their psychology experimental
phenomenon called stereotypes that I love stereotyped threat. Will you explain it a little bit? So this is work by your psychologists. Call Claude Steel, and one of the first experiment is to take college kids, who think of themselves have been good at mass girls and boys and present them hard problems, and if you do that glanced into do worse than boys at these problems. But if now what you do is just before the problems. You, sir, a little sentence, which is you might have heard, that girls are less good at mass than boys, but actually that does not apply to these particular tests and ended. Do this exercise and then the difference between boys and girls disappear crazy, that one sentence that's waistcoat stereotype tried wishes, began to conform to the image that they think they ve. Always I'm struggling. It's not because this is a super, hard problem that they should be challenged by its because I'm a good man,
That's another problem than the emphases: I'm not your problem, which can have conspired to the same result, which is we are seeing fewer gold going towards stem, and then that said, if, when funding, because if they are not very many, women in stem then download many more modern you're, not seeing many female professors or people with Korea has been successful tools you interest action to mental you when you start to provide companionship and their legs would suffer feeds on itself. Unless you one dare deciding to make a special effort to remedy the situation and by the way, something very similar. Can be said about minorities, women, he economics, but that even fewer black people- and this is clearly a disaster for the failed, because this is social science right. It is very difficult to imagine a social science field any sociology genomics human psychology. That is completely the need for, because societies and uniform exactly so he's a cop.
Thirdly, uniform in a white male filled. We would have a very now view of even what the problems we need to try and address, and so on so fast supporting diversity of gender, of lived experience of background of places, etc is really essential into richness of the field, I think it was in whistling Vivaldi, which has a great book. If Ireland s exactly, they talked a lot about stereotyped threat, which was the first time. I've heard it and it was through the lens of minorities, and I had never heard anything like it. How that one sentence prior to trying a math problem could change the entire experiment and one of the things I ve been doing with my kids, my daughter just audition for her play in who is talking about being really nervous, and I was applying that technique of say before her performance, I'm turn my nervousness into excitement. I'm gonna turn my nervousness into excitement. She repeats it and I mean who knows
it's working, but I certainly like that was what was recommended in the book about nervousness and like. Why not if we have some data, that this silly little sentence that you can't possibly think could adjust someone's ocean, all well being during an experience, whether it's an audition or doing a math problem. Why not apply it is something that we are learning across a number of experiments I caused. If one domain is that sometime, more shift makes a big difference, because it changes your entire perspective, how you view the challenge other problem? So in the example did you get your struggling it just a sentence, changes that because it can put it in a different way context, and similarly kids, for example, that something that works that their economies
who in particular your Bernstein at the University of Chicago Daddy, the very interesting work at a business school where their participate into carrier counselling sessions? there had groups of just were men and group of women and men and they were asking them to sign up for her particular your track of jobs and they had a small small shift into what people could expect about whether the choice was going to be public to the members of the corpse origin left private and what they found is that woman in this business school so highly selective already to be ambitious if they were in a mixed scope, and I thought that their choice we're going to be made public requested. Please when that, where much less ambitious work, oh, oh, but if you promise them privacy, they were just as ambitious wow
If it was woman only they were willing to be just as MRS in public or private. Presently they don't want to be perceived as too ambitious, by the men around, because that might didn't their management well look at what we do to ambitious women every woman, certainly in this country that tried to be super ambitious. You know, thank God, Cheryl Sandberg changed it from being I see two leaning in like we have to change all these labels, because any woman who starts to wear pants suit and speak about things that she's very qualified to speak about. We just rip her apart and it's all about it practitioners and what she's, wherein it's like wait a minute, wait a minute wait a minute. We have two separate this like proof, creation marriage? Do I find you attractive from you brain and you're sort of status within your career. Yes- and we don't so that's experiment that shows that that we dont end, as also shows that we pick it on very subtle clues, because it just
small chance into? Is it going to be public or private that until a change, their behavior, so we are trying to pick up it was from the environment into how we should behave with. He's why an apparently small men more deeply. Just like the one you were mentioning was your dough duck can be effective because it sort of changes. The way in which we perceive what's going on here- and this is in the case of those rights. Psychology gifts, its, but in the example I just gave its about how societies gonna perceive where I am and what's acceptable, did you have new role models when you were coming up are deciding to study economics. Was there a woman that you saw above you or did you just yeoman when I started economic when that many women there were some, but they were that many women, and not very many development, but I consider it particularly bothered by it yeah. Why do you think that?
Is it just like personality or parents, or yet you find that because your father was a mathematician here. There was a pediatrician right. I line that such an interesting fusion, of what your doing, because you're helping he'll through the statistics through math so. I think you you give it an exact description which is like in some sense. I feel that it might We have managed to fuse d the interest under the strength and the passion of both. My parents Certainly my mom is the big question, but she's or sore deeply committed to poverty and former when we were kids, she refused to travel to. Poor countries are in paragraph four countries where they were civilly was to train, set up programmes to help get there to be kind of were raised in that ambition, and I think that's where my desire to do something useful
But at the same time I was attracted by academia and bakery girl and by being slow and try to get the right answer as opposed to working urgency. So I didn't really want to be a doctor, and my father had that aspect. So that's kind of how I managed to combine both of death tanks and quite use, and, given that, at some level, when I decided to start economics, I was saw assured and confident of what I wanted Who that I didn't really need your mother and nothing could really move me from that track. In fact, what I arrived in the U S and started my phd. I realise that development economics was ready. Not very big. Feet it was very small and in fact Abidjan, Bioenergy and Michael Cramer, whereas what we have just starting to rebuild. It forms cod too little bit it at last. A lot of this video appeal- and I was like you, whatever down those students, doesn't doesn't matter. I came to do this. I'm gonna
this and if it doesn't work out, then I'll find it the way to get to my goal, which is due to be held food for the poor people, so I think I have been very, very lucky and fortunate to have such a storm NAFTA in terms of what they want to achieve. It does help into sorting all that junk about what people think and am I going to be my general or not. It doesn't really matter as long as you're moving towards that objective, you said something in there that all consider as a low back tattoo. I feel like during this series I'm gonna get zero mild wagged. I'm gonna be my low back tattooed, because I need to hear it. You said ignoring the urgency. Those words I'm gonna think about them for a while, because we're so susceptible as human beings. to urgency from
say, all you see on a tv commercial to an impulse by at the supermarket. What's by the council, shall media social media to anything, ignoring the urgency and you were able to accomplish so much and have this incredible pact by deliberately ignoring the urgency and sort of just doing it step by step brick by brick, and that is fascinating, because we don't put certainly, as Americans, put any emphasis on brick by Brick- that's how it gets done. That is thing I'll. Take that negative wisdom, how many female professors other at MIT I should know, but I dont ok, but definitely more man. I would I am much many more, but I dont know issue. I noticed student body is about how far we is. Oh wow, that idea good good progress, big time, their difficulty body. Not yet
only a technical scooter with TAT faculty in stem fields and so on. It is still wasted walking up as an institution still walking on our agenda. They resting what I'm so happy to hear that about the student body. I was not spectin bad and in fact I was like. Oh my gosh. I love the idea that you are standing in front of a class of a bunch of boys and your in charge. But oh christen looked it up. Sixteen percent of MIT Faculty are women. Ok, I think I've fallen into this problem where I've I think if you work in a field, that's male dominated which you know a lot of these super highly successful fields are, then you have to like adopt male qualities, but I think I'm starting to learn and taken that. That's not true, I think, he's historically it between two, perhaps where
to succeed in some of the stem fields and in economics as a woman, you had to be even Stronger and more aggressive re then demand so that, because, as our ways, people with Burma- and he questioned your legitimacy to be their here- and I think that doesn't change at bury t changes before that, it's enough to have a group of women around to create a space where you can behave. The way you want to behave and not be self conscious about the fact that you don't share the same manner of speaking on the stem cells have actually recognised yeah, then economics that there was a problem with gender balance and they ve already tied to work on it. Many years and have made progress fast, starting with a student body with where you have a half student body at MIT and then moving
graduate students and then assistant professor on faculty in economics, haven't been as interested until a few years ago. You start seeing research on whether we have a culture, for example, does not very sympathetic to women. So, for example, there is every cent paper by Pascal in Dubai and other that looks at intervals. Jensen Samina show us that the woman get interrupted more asked like more aggressive questions in semi. Now they are paper showing that woman get less credit from God. work run out of us. Some are saying that everything is perfect, but I get it depends on the field, so it is much easier to be added, many countries. Any fewer female develop any go. You dont have to behave in any particular aggressive where you can be just be who you are and you'll find people to work reason to people. We invite you and listen to you for what you have to say. It's harder in fields like Michael
again, which have very few women who were the culture is still very male dominated and hopefully that tensions that's the fiddler coolies, realizing that its separate from it yeah doing recent years in many department. You stop seeing these small things about. As we were saying, this more things can make a difference the detained the entire whether tunas set so, for example, in my department We have now all that you have to lead to speak. I speak for the first ten minutes before you get into up them. I'll defer, took off ninety minutes, so that might seem an ambitious as a goal that it was a big ten security for the normal semi. Now, while the first slide immediately people started up to new and asking you guess I'd like to apply that rule at home. When I get home to site, I want to be able to talk uninterrupted for ten minutes about what, everyone and then after that, come at me. You know that you gave us your horse and we ve started.
that did not department and many other they Brockman accepted, have started sumida things. I think it does. You know, little by little we actually changes the entire culture and atmosphere in a way that makes it more inclusive and again is not just about women so about minority and perhaps even more about minority that might feel more easily questioning their legitimacy. Yeah, where the best of an israeli inappropriate, yeah, the very fact of people, realizing that such as exist is, if I guess, we're manner against minority groups get makes a difference, but somebody might even among to chose you make them aware that they are biased against the immigrants against minority. That makes them it s likely to be biased against immigrants. So people saw ACT in a certain way, not out of meanness, but just out of inertia. Implicit bias in
listen struggle, the bad is implicit in acknowledge gear, and so therefore you, you think that you're just behaving completely appropriately, because you don't even see what might be the I've off your behaviour at the moment are another, so the fact that there is a common fishing around the fact, for example, that the black LIVE matter movement heighten the conversation about minority defect, today's MA composition about gender, the stem field owing to successful, feel like finance, exe error that actually in itself the fact that the commission exist ethic in itself contribute to Prague in ways tat incremental. But you know this is almost my motto about anything. Is all progress is progress and it can eventually Bill on each other until you get like a big social knobs shifts. And secondly, these problems are a much less from
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of women, but they're the ones that are gonna. Look at the data as to how to make these incremental changes to get more women involved everywhere. There's somethin, there's an iron really cute. I heard about that. You did some research in female Lee, your ship, I think in India. Can you tell us a little bit about that? Unlike what the big take always were? Yes, absolutely I have worked on a woman politicians in battle. Woman leadership at the local level. So in India, They have a law that at the local level, at the village level, one third of each village must elect a woman as the head and they passed this law, because otherwise there were very few women elected in this leadership position and when it happened at first people said well, it's not gonna make any difference, because in any give women are just the purpose of their husband. Today is going to be a real head with the husband and
the woman will be just deformed, and I thought well, maybe maybe, but then maybe not. Let's compare and it turns out. It was very easy to compare, because in order to ensure fairness, they actually randomly selected where they were putting a reservation for women and where they didn't have one so we can put any compare and oppressing we found- is that women do very different the men in particular woman, invested much more in the goods that other woman wanted. It is not true that they were the shadow of their husband. There might be in public yeah, but then, as soon as he is not watching. Actually, he D actually doing their work and their completely transformed the villages in terms of the water and sanitation infrastructure in particular. The second thing we This dead people hate to have a woman as a policy make your data heed their here. First generation of women get clobbered exactly for the reason that you talked about this.
I could put a woman in position of power and she's sinners like ambitious and not Thirdly, in so most of these first women elected dead that they didn't invent again want to sit became open, but by the fact that they were there. They actually open peepers mind to the possibility of having woman in power, and when you do this, the implicit biased test you. in that very strong implicit association, that its men, who are leader on women who are working at home, is less bad implicit. That had a woman as leader and also if you ask people to rank is peach. So we took a speech that was made by a policy maker in a village. and then we had made actors you will be. You would like that could cause the female voice. Deadlines are male voice talents we gotta do speech and people thought that the speech was so much better when it was said by a man in Geneva.
When they didn't have Kristen reading it again or Amanda Gorman safe? But when they had had a woman s policymaker that difference vanished man interesting so The fact of, even though you dont, like the one you have in front of you, it forces you to realize that. Women can lead yeah, subconsciously, they're, changing and other woman started running and they were elected, though we were talking about a whole mother before this first generation of woman they get clobbered, but the open people's minds almost like are their own, caused by the open people's mindsets that other women can enter and can lead, and it goes which is now at the last speaker we did. Is we we interviewed bonds about their ambition for their daughter than their son and in places that had a woman as leader talents.
can much more ambitious for their daughters. That increase the didn't, have a woman leader inside the gap between boys and girls and tell them of the hopefully to kitchen, except if I disappeared in those villages, and the girls were in fact much more likely to continue on to secondary school I should just having this woman as leaders, even though there is this bath and people effectively dont like them and thanking them negatively. All of these changes did happen and they are self reinforcing, because, after that, we continued collecting data for several cycles, turn the effect on the fraction of woman. Why empower continues to be higher in places that have been exposed and because the experts? by rotation of entreaty. Everyone gets exposed, and then therefore you have like a arise anymore meant of female leader which in order does lead to her, is in an ambition to what girl any possibility that guns have been their lives, it so fastening.
because I get so frustrated with humans, resistance to change or difference. Just in general, like you're, saying the simple, things like they just saw a woman in power, and yet the first one got you know bombarded then the second one ran, and then people got more excited for their girls and like when we had a woman as elected vice president. I mean, like I don't like her, care all of that aside? There was a female sitting, in the White House, in a huge position of power that we never had before when we found the results of that election, I was crying the whole day I just was. Am I my little girls looked up, I mean they were like. Why are you so sad? I thought you were excited and I had to tell them that their tears of excitement specific, it because you will go to school in a time where there will be a little more diversity where you will see someone who looks like you in a position that you
could hold that any girl could hold now and it's just breaking down those barriers. It so is so small, but it so important- and even I remember on that day, I just remember being on social media and seeing of the women in my life posting pictures of end, like across political lines of like this, is a cool day. Yeah going it significant yeah. It was really important. Yes, I completely agree except we Wednesday, I dont think its smaller. it's very big when their work comes vice president oil gas, and I also think that the fact that a woman run for President Diego before, even though she got clobbered impact for being a woman that also plays into that also did open the boy, but look at that. The first one got clobbered and
they're gonna want one got elected, and that is exactly why we wanted to do this particular podcast. Because the women who go there first the women who are at her a tap on the glass are usually ones that do get clobbered, that's been sort of apparent and giving them some acknowledge. And hearing their stories and their trials and giving them some credit for opening up doors to every one else. We just thought was was pretty important and I think that that security key and could you get any great that you're doing this programme, because I think that horrible Dennis it is important, as has been clearly shown in values, domains So there were many many more reason for me, of course, to be super excited when I got the Nobel Prize and are going to hide it. One other leg, I'm
This is going to be fought for some time and I'm young enough that, hopefully I'm going to be there for some time and for some time day is going to be a woman Nobel Prize winner who, who is gonna, be out there to some extent So in merger and at some point I find it so interesting will specifically the part about parents end there's a female role models and leaders in their area how that just infuses into them? More ambition for the girls, because isn't that parents don't have ambition for their girls it set, they want to protect their children. They want them to succeed in the end, the easiest best way they can. So, if the word
this telling them the way for the daughter to succeed is to stay at home or to cook or in a clean there, trying to protect that they don't want to be like hey, go outside the box and perhaps get clobbered like you know, like that's hard for apparent to do so, it makes sense that when they see it, they feel confidence to pass that down it. Yes, I think that's that's exactly right and also people get to boost influence by social norms, and they get sometimes they get mistaken. about what the not is, which contributes to keep it in place. So there was this paper about Saudi Arabia very interesting experiments where they took a bunch of males and ask them what they swords about woman working outside the house
and they asked America or their own opinion, and they also ask them what death thought other people were thinking, so it turns out that over half of the people actually, where comfortable with the idea that their wife would work out said to house, but there so that most of the other people would not thinking looking so innocent. The individual opinion was, I'm actually find with it, but I think that other people in my pick up our not find was it so I'm not gonna, do it so what they didn't. This experiment is that they took half of those people and inform them and say you know what most people think like you and most people think it's ok to have women work outside the house, and then they followed the choices of this husbands and wives over time and in particular, they give them an opportunity for the job that could be done is from home. Often
this and they found that the people who were informed that the social none was more liberal than they thought were actually more likely to be willing to sign up there. Why for job training programme ought to give them the chance to do this job outside the house, as opposed to stain, said and doing from home. So we, really influence, not just by our own opinion, but by what we think is acceptable and what we think is accepted by moves even slower than what we ourselves think is acceptable and contributes to a lot of difficulty moving did neither. Hence again, the whole of of exposing people will have had different trajectories of people would think differently here, all the gold mothers do. You think that's because we hot we eyes. I mean mainly the media, highlight the polarization of
so many opinions so often like that is the click bade of like. Will fifty percent of people leave this? Fifty percent of people believe this about whatever topic it is and that were just sort of always our implicit bias is that least half the people are against us at all times. When really may be, we could all be on the same page realize it. I do think that the media and social media accentuate that phenomenon in two ways. First of all, is it accentuates probably the desire to conform, because you're so quick to be called out? If you dont inside your little echo timber, whatever it is until it becomes very important, do not try to people are very conservative and not necessarily in the opinion, but in terms of the risk that waiting to take real every what other people in their people might think. The other thing is that the media does accentuate IMF, Paula
opinions so, for example, in today's conversation, there is a lot of that you know Republicans don't like to wear masks and Denmark. I'd love to wear masks, and we see a lot of gloves about the Republicans. Don't have mask undemocratic masks. So from that, we might in fair that, if they're up I believe we can all live in urban community there ready shouldn wear masks that they are not going to create any problem for them by themselves, despite the fact that maybe I personally would like yeah, but the media just told them a public, and, unlike the well may rise of asset for people in Brooklyn, maybe they would love to go. My for media is telling them. Invoking is wearing them ass, they look stupid if they don't have a masked rail groups. We love groups, so that creates this hard behaviour which is
You ignore your own information of feeling to go with the goal. Then it might be that we all think dissembling. Republican demo could have the same views about mass, which is sometimes appropriate, and sometimes it isn't. But the small initial difference gets played up. Bite is echoed Chamberlain, insisted on the different, any kind of becomes under generously generated, which is indeed its talk now about. If you go to a republican community, I know one whereas a mask and vice versa, and doesn't mean, for example, that people wouldn't be very easily persuaded by just telling them something simple. For example, a doctor whom again people trust giving them the information that a mask can put it you are in fact we ve done some experiment with doctors, where we should video with some messages uncovered, and we found that the order
For example, that applicants and Democrats have different ideas and at the beginning there are just as receptive to the Doktor S message really though they start from a lower level, for example, of mask worrying or willingness to perform a mask, but as they are completely persuadable, just as Democrats Swedenborg, so that shows that it's not a day like calmly believed in that message that are in that I I do it's not that not wearing a mask is back. There I didn't do it has happened to be they collaborate on where everybody at kind of Congo heated around, but in fact in our people could change. The opinion was very little and it shows in today's political composition, where the media as a whole and social media as a whole. We tend to be too, I think, pessimistic about people's ability to listen to. You
give them some concrete, actionable information and where they found in my research in India, in the. U S everywhere is actually, if you give people concrete action, information and not bullshit. They actually pretty persuadable, no matter where you start from that is the AL helpful uplifting. I love this was wonder, involve really really incredible. I feel like I could listen to you talk for hours and hours and hours. Thank you so much for taking the time to share with us and educate us and you're being a role model at some poor, and thank you to the both of you, assembling the old models. Contact and am pardon, are not participate, not talk to you again. Yes,
observe bye, bye.
Transcript generated on 2021-07-29.