The only thing I can controls me instead of worrying about who else is causing you problems worry about. What You can do to yourself to improve your station and if you go down that path, you're going to find you have a lot more control than you think you do the so here we are in the sunday special with jocko willing was the host of the jocko podcast and the author of this fine book, the dichotomy of leadership, which is soon to be on the new york times, bestseller list, I'm sure we'll get to everything involving leadership and the terry and all that Canada step at first. Let's talk about your job, recruitment, so their job sites and send out tons of the wrong resonates ashore through, and that is not smart, but you know what is smart, music the kurds outcome- slash Ben guests to hire the right person, zip recruited independent candidates, finding you it finds them for you if powerful matching technology scanning thousands of resumes identifying people with the right skills, education experienced your job and actively inviting them to apply to get qualified candidates fast,

That's why they programmers rated number one by employers in the united states, a rating comes from hiring sites, untruss pilot with over a thousand reviews right now, my list you can try zip rapporteur for free at this exclusive web. Address zip, require dot com, slash Ben gas, because I have a guest at zipper. Kutuzov com flash ben gas zip recorded calm, slash Ben gas and obviously the when we after hire here when we have to get rid of some of our producers for just falling asleep on the job and being terrible at their jobs. They'll know they're on notice, Ziprecruiter, dot, com, slash, Ben guest is the way that we actually replace them. So sorry, sorry for the night, skies, but that's our ziprecruiter, the smartest way to hire ziprecruiter dot com, slash Ben guests, a jacket thanks so much for stopping by. I really appreciate it breaks from reality for folks who don't know what you do. You are a leadership guru or your leadership grew in the area of business and in the area of of just general, leadership and all that started with your military back so, can you kind get me the story from went from a kid too, I was speaking for

large sums of money before leadership groups. Well, for I'll guru is a strong words or what you put that one in check right on the gate yo. I was right in a small new england town grub on a dirt road. Both my parents for school teachers and ours rebecca, rebellious young kid and one of them rebellious things that caught my eye pretty early on was joining the military because, where I was from not many people the military and then when you now go and join the military coups you want. A rebellion might as well just go and do something even more. Extreme than just joined the military and I figured out what this year teams were well I'm getting. I like, I said I was one to be some kind of commando and so when I got out of high school I illicit in the navy. I ended up that's your team one. When we went to visit in training and in and then ended up facility one, and that was before the first gulf war, I actually I missed the fort first gulf war cause. I was going through the seal training and got to seal team, and once I was there, I did what seals do

Just train overtime, eventually got picked up for a leadership programme, became a seal officer and then did deployments on till september. Eleventh one september came then I started doing the wartime. Departments are deployed twice to iraq once as a seal platoon commander once as what's called us. Task unit commander, which means there's two see opel tunes working together now was in charge of both of them. I got done with that deployment. That was a very arduous deployment. We were in battle of the, two thousand sex. It was very hard fighting the marines, just that we worked alongside the heavy losses. But incredible job we took casualties in our task in it was very hard fighting then, why came home from that deployment? I got asked we were ok jacko. What do you want to do now and I ended up taking. For the training for the west coast, she'll teams, and this in the training where you if the people on t v going through seal training where you carry the boats around or you do a bunch of pushups, this isn't bad training, that's our basic training

the training that I ran was the training where you learn to shoot, move and communicate, as I say, or to an where we actually taught combat leadership, and so I took over that training. I ran out for the last few years and when I was getting ready to retire guy that I knew was a fine. Mine he was the of a company. and he said: hey can you come and talk to my executives. You know about about combat leadership and I said you know sure I'll. Do it a friend of mine, so I went and did it and I don't know what he thought I was gonna talk about, but when I got done He came up to me and said I want you do this for every division that I have in my company, and I said well I'm retiring and I don't know in I said I'll, give you money and I said how much and we worked it out and I ended up talking to every division that he had in his company and at one of those divisional meetings. The ceo of the parent company was there and when I got done, you know briefing about leadership.

That ceo came up to me and said: hey, I want you talk to the sea, of all my companies- and you know he owned forty, five or fifty companies and from there I wouldn't talk to those egos and the next thing you know I had a. I had an new job I didn't get to retire. What I had planned end as I was doing, that I needed some backup and one of the guys that worked for me in the battle were married guy by the name of a bad batman. He was one of the platoon commanders underneath me and those two seal platoons and he we're getting out of the navy, and I talked to him. Hey man. I need some backup over here, and so we do forces and we fondest his company echelon and that's we do leadership consulting and along the way, as we were talking companies we get there talking and they say: oh, do you have a separate down anywhere? Do you have any painful you can give us so the guys MR meeting can can see what you're talking about

and so eventually we looked at each other and that ok, we need to write this stuff down the more formal way we did that. That became a manuscript that manuscript became a book, and that book was the first book we released. It was called extreme ownership. and it ended up. I kind of thought I'd be giving it away at the back of united, speak to people and give it away in the back, and it ended up doing really well and good what attraction and, and just it's it's been. It's been well read. So how much your leadership do? You think is just natural to you because you're tonight What hearing is obviously guy goes tremendous initiative from a very young age mean to even before a place where nobody goes in the military and destroy them. Military takes a lot of footwear as is my folks would say I so good. Do you think that it really is that leadership is, is borers of bread? I get asked this question all the time, and so it's both it's we both and you as a human being, are gonna get certain characteristics if you're a good leader and you're going to lack some characteristics. That would make you a good leader. If you had them, you don't get tens across

if the board, you know it's like the little video games, you see kids play where you get a nine and strengthened and have a seven and intellect and a and an eight and dexterity, and you get those as a leader and you dont get all tents, so some leadership, characteristics that make it a, for instance, are obvious: it's gotta be articulate. If you can expression. Message clearly to people. That's gonna! That's gonna help you from a leadership perspective, If you have some natural charisma, that's gonna help you from a leadership perspective. If you can look at complex problems and you can simplify them. That's gonna be helpful as a leader, because that's what you're doing if you're, persuasive, there's all kinds of things that will help you leader and you're, not gonna, be good at all, and so, as a leader. Look at the ones that you're we got, you can improve them. That's that's what's beneficial, so you It takes someone, that's just a horrible leader and make them into an amazing leader, but you can take someone, that's a decent leader and you can make them into a very good or even an exceptional leader, because how you know you can if we get more articulate you can definitely get more comfortable speaking to people, you can get

yet more more precise at taking very calm it's problems and simplifying them so that your team can understand what it is that needs to get done. So these are all things that you can improve upon, and I always have to close this out by saying that there are some people that cannot become better leaders and the but that cannot become better leaders. Are the people that camp put their go unchecked, could they lack humility and those people? I think, that doing everything, great southern going to improve as leaders you can't culture, can convince them? They think they're perfect, then going to stay where they are from a leadership perspective. So what what did you actually learn? From the first time you went through seal training cause you join the military and you decided to go to the hardest, but whatever widely across american as the hardest training programme. America. What is that like the the about seal training that part of seal trained.

Is that you learn anything at all, because you actually don't it's it's I'm eu yoga. You learn something, but it's a screening process. What you're trying to do is get rid of people, but dont want a really really really do that job. So it's it's suffering, you're going to be doing, you're gonna be wet. You can be cold, you're, going to be tired and going to be that for extended periods of time and There's an eighty percent interest rate, but when you make it through youth you get to a seal team and when you get to assailed him, that's when you start to actually learn about being a seal. That's when you learn the tactics. and the leadership perspective. That's one! That's when you start to become an actual seal getting through the basic seal training. It when you show, but a seal team area, It looks at you, you you, you come out of there thinking you, like you just said: oh, I just went through the toughest training in the world. You get to a seal team I literally checking with a master thief, and he said everyone here has been that training. No one cares the potato it very humbling when you show up and that's when you start Why don't start to learn when you're a seal platoon and

when it comes to getting into the simpleton having determined leadership positions, even among people who you're initially, as we have just did you think that sort naturally falls out or there's a rank structure and the military there's a rank structure inside the seal teams and you're gonna be wary. For you, when you are new guy, you're gonna, be the junior guy and then the next, soon, you're gonna be a little more you'll have a couple guys working for you. The opportunity if it's gonna be you know, the senior guy enlisted guy inside of a sea opportune and then you have an officer in charge. The whole thing in those are pre designated as a pre designate, which was very counter to me, initial thought when, when I joined the navy, my dad wait. I was going to hate it because why do you think I'm gonna hate it, because because you don't like to listen, anybody don't like authority and where's, I told them. No doubt it is it's a team. We thereafter Listen! Anybody! It's a team and I was completely wrong people because there is a rank structure. You absolutely others. A bit it's the military, even though the team Definitely have you been patient jobs throughout that chain of command and that is

a prominent than in some other groups, but you still chain of command and you're going to you're going to follow that chain of command, and it has been a lot of talk about the possibility mandatory national service that somebody has gone through this programme, and I have seen so many guys who are military I come from. I knew your back and they were not school and we're kind of you, I can't say whenever they are kind of efforts, I answer and then they come out the other end their young. Solid citizens, not always how citizens but really make an someday themselves. What do you think of the idea of a mandatory national service, I love the idea of it, but at the same time as eric- and I don't like the idea of mandating that people do something that they don't want to do and I think the voluntary military that we have right now is it it might be the best in history, a world. We have a great military. And I think the mandate it I think is problematic. That being so,

every single person that I talk to especially kids at the age of no thirteen fourteen fifteen, do you get the opportunity to join the military I would definitely recommended because, like you said it it, it teaches you a lot of things when it comes to the application of leadership principles. How much of what you learned and leadership printing at the seals was, public law and how much of it was your just in a situation, and now you gotta you gotta, move you gotta figure something out how much is cd, your pants kind of stuff? Well, When I came in, we really didn't and is a shocking. We really didn't have a process leadership training that the leaders went there and we would basically, leaders would learn oj. On the job training, you'd watch the person that was leading you and then what where's your time to take over you'd kind of emulate what they were doing and if you had a great leader that worked or get you had bad leader. That was a real problem. So when I came back from that deployment to remedy that's one of the things I focused as I realise that we really needed to implement leadership training for the guy's because you're on the battlefield,

is the most important thing on the battlefield and if you don't know what you're doing you're gonna get people killed without question, what what will it sort of the? Can you give me a couple of stories to sort of demonstrate that poignant? What's what's a high point of leadership that you've seen on the battlefield suppose you, a low point, is seen in terms of leadership when one thing that's important to tackle, fires when I talk about leadership, are not just talking about me, because I was in charge of the task in it or the balloon commander disease in charge of soon or even the people. Above me, I'm talking about every level of leadership. Every person taking ship or their peace, the mission and executing executing with forty in executing, with with real like and about what they're doing, and so you gotta have leadership at every level and when you don't have that it is very poor. Maddox or what was great for me when I came back and I took over the training for the west coast proceedings, I got to see we put on the most realistic, combat training. The extreme stressful, very realistic and I would get sued, opportune, go

this training and then the next night it be another platoon going through the same scenarios and then next be another between going through the same scenarios. So I got it was. It was basically the most incredible leadership laboratory it might be This incredible leadership laboratory, that's ever existed. It was that awesome to build it to build a put these. These tombs through these iterative trading and thou, was where it became very clear that leadership, if you had a good leader in a simpleton that children would do a good job and by the way that leader didn't need to be the senior guy they could in a guy that was two or three runs down, but when things started happening you step up in and take command and make things happen and the as long as the other leaders, maybe that we're senior to them had the way with all the this. You know what this guy seems to have a grip on the situation ominous, let him run with it. Then. Ok occasion you getting egotistical leader that would feel like going capital, my toes and they try and put down- and that would be problematic but you'd see a good, solid.

leader anywhere in that seal platoon, would make those super tunes perform great and if you had a bad bitter in a sealed to you'd watch the whole between fall about apart, if no one stepped up and took charge and made things and this was very evident and that's another thing that just solidified the principles that we it's the same same principle that we teach the businesses are, are literally the exact same principles that we wrote about. Extreme ownership are the same principles that we talk to. Young seal leaders, criminal law asking a second. What are some of those leadership principles, though I should get into this nitty gritty from the thirty thousand four level, but first, let's talk about your impending that soap, life insurance very wouldn't, but one third of people don't have it and that's because its hard by. You have to work out what you needed than do the research to find the best quote, and hopefully and swindled along the way. It's not really a good way to shop for anything, so policy geniuses made the whole process a lot. Simpler policy genius compares quotes from the top life insurance companies to find the best

for you, it takes us two minutes to get a quote and if you don't know the first thing about insurance, if they're all the tools to get dig up, speed, learn the difference between term and whole life insurance calculate how much coverage you need and be sure you're making the right decision. In fact, four million people have used policy genius shop for insurance. How prevalent how that is it? I can tell you I had a listener. much of it is in the new life insurance industry. He said I want you, stop reading out the policy genius because they're putting us out of business. That's how good they are. This house, he genius, doesn't just make life insurance, easy thousand compared: disability insurance, home insurance, auto insurance. If you care about it, they can cover it so, whether you know about life insurance or nothing. At all start, your search, a policy genius tat com because you're gonna plots and when you do your nature, these families taken care of in just two It's you can compare, quotes, make an informed decision for you and your loved ones. Policy. Genius is the easy way to compare and by life insurance check it out right now. A policy genius dot com, okay, so now let's get down to some of the main lessons of leadership. So what's the number one thing you look for in a leader? Well, the first book was called a ownership

and what that means is you're not gonna make, excuses you're, not gonna, blame anyone else. You're gonna take ownership of whatever happens, and we're something goes wrong and that are pointing fingers employment. Someone else can take ownership of that problem. You to take ownership of food, in all the solution to that problem is you're to take ownership of implementing that solution. So that is, the number one thing that I'm looking for for a leader to do is to take ownership of the problems and again we call that extreme ownership- and it was The things it was very easy to see the simpleton, because when someone doesn't take ownership and starts pointing fingers and blaming well like first right. Now, if I started pointing my finger and blaming you for something what your natural reaction going to get defensive get upset, I'm in it's not my fault. This broadcast isn't what I wanted it to be exactly exactly and then what happens is we have a team where you're pointing that I'm pointing the finger you you're pointing the finger at someone else, and now we have no one taking ownership of the problems and therefore the problems never get solved, the so that is when you have a good leader that steps up and says hey benito

this broadcast didn't go. The way I wanted to. I should have done a better job preparing took for your questions, I'm sorry apologized, and now, instead of you, getting defensive, you say you know what no actually I could have done a better job and now both of us are taking ownership of the problems and we're going to get them solved. So that's kind of the One characteristic as someone who has the humility has it hurts it stay things when something goes wrong and your leader- and you say: oh you know what all this was bad situation. It's my fault. Baltic wish, above it better things that you go so you have to be humble in order to do that, how much of leadership is? It sounds like a lot of. It is just being good person, interpersonal, because its helsinki that same message and apply it to marriage, where it's not the question of you leading your spouse, but if you start button your spouse and the whole thing falls apart nearly immediately, whereas we have no expectations of yours thousand, is just going to take responsibility for whatever happens, then your

it goes a lot better. The note no doubt about it and we definitely as soon as the first book came out. We got all kinds of feedback from people in every type, a scenario that, when they started taking ownership of their relationship with their wives with their spouses, the it gets better. And obviously this translates to personal response because, when you're walking around in your saying all its family in its it's it's the marquis towards that is the way I was raised, and these are the things that are hold me back and all your when is by me everyone else, you don't take ownership of those problems, and that can be informatik? The best thing to say is: ok, look. Whatever happened happened I'm going to take what I cannot go forth and conquer, so the regardless for the countryman. Obviously my mind drums critically, and I think that we're living in an era where there's a lot of political capital. gained by politicians, particularly in telling people that their victims and that the first move? be to blame the system or blame factors outside their controls? Hymns, like your arguing, exactly the opposite view, if want to have a happy life and maybe first artists are taking responsibility for the decisions that are within your purview. If you, if you are speaking,

politically? Why would you be telling people along these lines? Now? That's all of us are right. I mean, if you if you're blaming everyone else, I can't control you. I can't control these other things outside. I can't I can't control the only thing I controls me. So instead of worrying about who else is causing you, problems worry about what you can do to yourself to improve your station, and if you go down that path, you're gonna fight, you have a lot more control than you think you do. So. How do you feel about with situations in which it really is the person's fall rights? Are you you're taking responsibility for everything, but at the same time, you just have somebody who's whose scope in a serious way shredded editorial, a bad in the in the wall street journal about a guy who is true data, one whereby Steve jobs working apple as you ve jobs, approaches him, obviously the cortical ultimate leader in the tech sector and he just looked at what they are doing having said this garbage and then he swam away and the guys I well you know it made me feel better. Time, but I realized it sometimes in aid incurred, Maybe you better well,

when you think of that sort of leadership, style yeah are there times where you just have to choose somebody out and is that ever useful. There are very few occasions, I'll, tell you from a leadership perspective. If you're working me and you screw something up whose fault is up. Presumably it it's your fault for. Hired me. What will not number one? Why to hire you? If you can do the job, but even if let's say, did hire you did I give you the right guides. Did I give right support? Did I actually check back in you and make sure that you had the resources that are needed to get the thing done. Did I make sure that you were trained? Probably this all these things that I look back and myself and say if my subordinates now If my borders are doing what I need him to do, that is my fault. Now, to your question, do you occasionally get someone that is either incapable doing the job. For whatever reason I don't have. The cognitive capacity, or they don't have the physical capacity or they don't have the right attitude to get a job that doesn't, and sometimes yes it. Absolutely does. When we talk about that in the new book we had got my my task ends: tell me the browser and we had

two guys inside a task in a browser that when we went through up deployment training they they didn't caught it? And you don't know We did everything we could to mental, to train them, to get them up to speed, Ultimately you get to a point as a leader where you recognize this person is, is there are capable of doing the job and I'm putting all my resources into this one individual and I was starting to to shun the rest of the team, because I'm focused on one person, so I'm actually hurting the rest of the team. So, even though I have loyalty- and I take ownership of the of the subordinates that are working for me at some point, my loyalty to the team- a trump, my loyalty to one individual and I have to make up our decision to to get rid of that person is our question, but I mean it's going toward families. It What do you do with kids like it? Whatever you have? Several kid I voted for the others. I guess you have avoided unless it and one of them is a slacker and is not a situation into a sort of common environment. The kids, aqua. You know you gotta do what you gotta do. How do you new determine where to put your resources, given that one

very often is. It requires more attention than another kid in the sort of area, but the do the thing raising kids is again. I used to shy away from talking about this because I used to say you know what my kids with results aren't in yet did and also its like what you don't. You oh kid successful. What does it actually mean? Because my kid could go and make a time to turn money but have a horrible family life and and- Did you write me? A jerk right is that that success, not war, they could be very happy but have no money in view. Live in day to day and that so that that's not successful either but kids, all older now, and I can see this trajectory that they are on in and quite frankly, pretty happy with the way my kids have turned out. It's it's it's it's a hard thing to look at because you can't fully control it, and so what are you gonna do with your kids? You know I like to you gotta, giving guidance right, but you also have to work

them brush up against the guard rails of failure, you know a simple example that I we say it. I probably have taken some flag for this. As I say, if you're helping your kids you're hurting your kids and what I mean by that something as simple as time. Your shoe right, if you help your kid when their whatever age two years, all three years old? If you help them, tie your she tied their shoe you, your actual, taking away an opportunity, opportunity for them to develop their fine motorcycles. That's that's really happening at that moment. So if you do that If you cook them every meal, if you don't let em you don't get their cereal out, but guess what they're going to spill mill sometimes undergoing och over the cereal and at the same time, their developing skills and to help them fend for themselves in the world so what you have to do as you have to let them brush up Hence the guard rails of failure. From time to time now, where becomes challenging is apparent, and thank god I haven't faced anything like this- sometimes you kids will we'll take turns

that will ruin their life right, that will ruin their life and at no. Obviously, I'm not gonna? Let one of my kids ruin their lives. That being said, if people take really hard turn, and you things that are completely against the parameters that you believe in you continue to support them. They're gonna continue to take advantage of you and so I've seen that happened with parents were kids, go down the wrong direction. I can't I like I said I can't even imagine the the catch twenty two that you get in in that situation, where you, if you could be drug at it and you nothing more than to help them, but every time you give them the support that you think he's gonna help them you're, actually just enabling them so again, I'm no expert, I try and do is put a put a box round the kids, let em develop, let em grow

and put the guard rails out there, let him no one you when they disappoint you, but other part of this is- and this is a the hard thing for people to understand. It was deafening hard for me to understand you, kids, gonna be who you want them to be they're gonna be who they are and, in my opinion, the more you forced them to try and be what it is. You want them to be the harder the push back is going to be an in and up with, some really horrible situations, We talked about taking extreme responsibility. What are some of the other attributes of leaders that you look for, while humility it's, arguably the big one you gotta be humble sure, not humble then that's gonna be problematic. What's it new book I just came out? Is this dichotomy leadership. And what does that mean? That means that, as a leader, you have to be balanced right. You have to be balanced so let's just take humility and ego, because we're look for people that are humble, but at the same time you can have some that's so humble that they lack confidence that bad,

on the other side of that spectrum, you can have someone, that's so confident that their over, confident their egos? Big, they don't listen, anyone else. Where do you want to be you want to be balanced somewhere in the middle. I talked about the fact that you need to be articulate as leader. That's great, can you be a leader that talks so much that people stop listening to the other end of the spectrum is you are a leader that doesn't say enough, and now the team doesn't know what direction are supposed to be going in. So where do you want to be you wanna be somewhere, in the middle you wanna be balanced. what we ve seen working with after the books we monitor came out, we saw leaders the biggest problem. That leaders have because the last chapter in extreme ownership is called the dichotomy. Leadership is talking about these points. We need good enough, there's only one chapter as we continue to work with leaders, of leaders. You realize the problem the problem that they suffer the most is they go too far in one direction or the other, so that really the best characteristic have, as a leader is to be balanced in certain amount of that authenticity because

How much can you train into being a leader and move yourself out of where you authentically are so you're? You tend to be acquired person and now you're trying they train yourself into being the guy. Who can give a rah, rah motivational speech on the floor. Are you better off just perfecting the skills that you already have, or are you better off working on the skills that you lack your generosity, about this that the fact of being loud right? said. A quite person being loud is a characteristic of a good leader. it absolutely is an especially of being a combat me because yoda combat situation, and you need guys to move that door over there and theirs hang on going on the only way. You're gonna do this if you're loud enough to make that happen. You're loud, have to yell and let everyone know that I had a guy making my training really smart, guy, ivy league guy, very cerebral, quite as and I said to him- I said- listen you're gonna need to get loud, like your guys, cannot fear you going to need to learn to projector voice. He was for all practical purposes. As far as I can tell

physically incapable of projecting his voice, and so, as I was watching them, go through these iterations. I kept saying to them. You gotta be louder. You've got to be louder, your guys can't hear you and I didn't think he was going to make it and then one innovation that they're going through. I see me needs to get guys over this door over here and he grabs billy was the biggest loud mouth and the opportune and he goes Billy gave wonder that door over there. I believe Well, I to that the rapporteur and everyone moved, and I realized that he was smart. Me what he figured out was he could compliment on. We have weakness that he had with his team, and so yes, there's is that you can increase your capabilities and, like I said you become more articulate. You can learn to simplify more, you can become. A persuasive. If you continue to try and talk to people, but maybe so I like being loud. This guy just couldn't do it, but he was able to take his team

all the strikes and his team together to become a better leader himself, and that's always something that a good leader will do here. All the time surround yourself with good people. I would add that surround yourself with good people that count meant the areas that your week so honey a leader whose, let's ain't, eight percent leaders for ninety five percent leader is this he who is just one in motivation. Or is it somebody who requires skills like what you have guided? You think he's good raw material either ash exercises in which you can engaged become a better leader or absolute women when the seal teams. What we do is we run guys through these really com. Data training snares I'm talking about in the business world, we do roleplaying with people and I'll put you in a situation as a leader. Why say? Ok, I'm your worst nightmare employ or ninety worst nightmare, hey, I'm that that older guy that's been doing this for twenty five years, and I don't I change the way, I'm doing anything and you gotta get me to change it. Let's go, let's figure this out, and what you see is two three four feet away.

and of having these hard conversations. People get better at that's one aspect of life: but you can definitely you'd better ass. We want planning draw so people learn to simplify we run through location draw. So people learn to simplify their message is all kinds of ways to go from that eighty percent leader so the ninety five hundred percent. We let it go is you know, even a situations. I warfare situations, how much of the textbook suffers is applicable. I mean. Is it just? U have to live through a minister natural leadership capacity takes over or is it that you can game out? all this stuff. Is it possible to really gave out crisis scenarios, or is it basically did that that you can and then and then you're just doing what you do. Here's here's the answer that combat- and this is very counter intuitive to what people might think combat- is an absolute exercise as in creativity and when you're in these situations, you have to have an open mind. You have to know the principles you have to. I understand combat, but then you have to be able

those principles and apply them in may. Julie them and utilise them in ways that they made never been utilised before so that you can get the combat you desire it's a it's, very true, it's a very creative focused job and people, miss that a lot and that's why the training that I ran. We really focused on forcing the leaders to get creative design, problems. So let's talk a little about some of the leadership examples that we all have in common, so we have the movies, prefer as tons of examples of what they see as good leaders, horsemen apples of leaders that you ve seen in either everyday. For politics, us some, two leaders that you see. You say that A good leader looks like because we all have the sort of picture of leader in our head that two neighbour hamley. Figure tall person who have only speaks when necessary, or are they the the The little comes round for me is the is some hours was are they the actor in an abandoned brothers? I did

I don't know the main aim, but another he's trying to portray dick when dick winters exactly exactly that as the image that a lot of votes have from from pop culture. Who would be your your leaders you look to, and you say these are the ones who wise use or the regulators, the diamond dick winners. That's a fantastic example covered his talks on my ipod gas because he's a leader that Does every one of these little nuance things you can see him? Do it any better brothers is is an amazing series that really shows the nuances of his leadership, so that's right, ass if one of the leaders that that I always tried to emulate the guy. By the name of colonel david hack, worth who was one of the most decker it soldiers who served in korea and in vietnam, and he wrote a book called about face was about an eight hundred page balkan. It's really not about leadership at all overtly, but it's two percent about leadership, as you read it and if you're looking for those lessons, but he was a guy that again, he bounced off

this dichotomy very effectively. He was completely feared by the people that work for him most of the people that he worked for loved him and love. being having him on their team, however- and this is no part of the dichotomy he's the guy that he's one of them, senior leaders in vietnam that said look if we don't chain The way were fighting a war. We are not going to win, drummed him out of the army in a matter of months after that, because they end to me it was him speaking the truth as he sought, which I have grave. Speck for. So when you look at today's politics, I was twenty four for living and a few extra really chaotic it feels like it's a war of all against all odds or this hobson? this house instead of nature. Do you see that as a lack of leadership, or is it that there are too many people who think their leaders fighting with one another? I think so well, both, I think we're getting accustomed to this new world where you can get react.

he's on a minute by minute basis and one of the best ways to get reactions people is to make statements that are extreme, and so, again. Does this new box dichotomy leadership, it's about balance and right. Now I would say in politics we we don't find very much balance. We find people on both sides that are better leaning toward the extremes all the time and then that gets greatly amplified by the meat. How much of leadership involves. Actually, having a group of people who have the same common goal, because what one of the big problems that I'm seeing in our politics generally in having this is true in industry fragmenting society that folks is very much on the individual, I'm an individualist. I really believe that people should have the right to do essentially what they want: lungs they're, not harming anyone else, but it seems the success of a team or whether it's a navy seal team or any other team relies on having the same common goal. How much of that can be instilled by leadership and how much of that is just no. You join the team voluntarily. You knew what you are getting into. An kenneth

restored. If there's, if there is a lack of of goal, oriented nestled in the society is all you have to have some kind of common goal. You absolutely do now. We went out a common goal. You don't know where you're going. now, where we run into trouble in unity, or in in the political environment when right now is theirs different ways to get to that. Go right, there's different ways to get there I mean I don't think there's any one can. Maybe there are, but generally people want what good. The world right does not there's no one. That's thinking hey, we want a taylor, ship in america, does no one. It's not no normal people are saying that right. We have a common goal we want to do we want to. We want families to have good life who want people to be taken care of. We want you to have opportunity? We want to have a good economy right. These are all things that are pretty standard. I think we're gonna get fighting against that. Where we get fighting is how we're gonna get there and disagree and how we can get there and then what we see is we see people that put aside in the ground on their idea and don't

listen anyone else and in a team environment that's problematic boils down, the ego right, hey, I'm not unless new idea. I want to go with my idea and you, Let there be no compromise, they'll be compromise we're only gonna. Do it my way- and I would rather not execute the mission not accomplish the mission- did not do it my way and so when I see that that's that's that's problematic, how you solve it. Eventually, if you're gonna move forward, we have to solve it. You have to find out what compromises are going to be yeah. This is where I actually wonder whether that It's true, maybe it maybe I have more pessimistic view of the country than than you do actually at this point, because I do wonder whether we agree on the endpoint and we're just disagreeing about the means. I think that that a lot of folks nobody's going to come out and say I want a dictatorship. There are a lot of folks will say. I would like to restrict ex right for this group of people, because I think that right exercises hurting me, no due process rights for particular sets of prime need to shut down this particular sort of speech, because the sort of speech hurts me

in point I do wonder whether we lack even the common language of goals in order to in order to arrive at a common destination. Are you pessimistic or optimistic about the foreign country, I'm less pessimistic than you are with that and with those type of examples, because I don't see those as I see those as fringe and again I don't live in the same world is as you do. You know, you're Emily worsening of japan takes all these nearer to constant firefight with this stuff I in it in american. I work with businesses all over the country, and you know what I hate to break the news to you. Most people are watching news. Twenty four hours a day. Most people are split to those fringe people on either side, most people are out their work. Hard trying to make a living trying to take care of their family. That's what the I mean it's, it's beyond the vast majority. Is this the absolute ask majority of the people, that I work with every day. Are people that want to improve their station in life? They want to help their team when they want to do good work. They got pride

what they're doing that's what most people I mean construction manufacture sure. It's fine answer, that's what these people are doing, and so the french people better out screaming and yelling there there loud and the media focuses on. Why? Well you know it's because they that the media wants to get people to click and here without crazy person, ass to say most of america. We don't click on that stuff. We don't what do you think civilians don't understand about the military that you wish? They understood more. Very. Very few americans actually now know somebody who serves in the military or has served in the military used to be that huge percentage of american served. Now it's like two percent of americans serve in the military. What do you think civilians really ought to know about how the military operates and in what the military lifestyles like for number one, I think the most important thing to understand about people in the military is at their people is that their people- and these are people with with husbands and wives- were people with kids. These are people with gold

walls and their people with emotions, and I think, sometimes when you see a picture of a soldier of a sailor of an era of a marine you think of them. As that thing, as a soldier ass, a sailor as as near marine, and we often forget at soldier sailor airman marine, that service member? They they are a person and they have a life, and so. I think that's what happens when guys come home and they don't have a new mission to focus on. They get a little bit lost in people. Dont know how to freedom. So I I say it's real strict, simple and straightforward: there are people treat them like people and given him the respect that they deserve absolutely because the sacrifices that they make are not there not sack. Ices made by robot their sacrifices made by person and, unlike in my case and and the families as well in my case,

When I was on my last appointed to mario, I left my wife at home, with three young kids and I knew what I was doing. I knew what a day to day circumstances were my wife didn't know. My It was at home, raising kids and by the way, going my wounded guys in the hospital going to my guys, funerals. That is credible sacrifice on the home front as well, so I think it's important but that these are people both the various members and their families. As that's pretty amazing. How do you mean your wife? I met my wife I was overseas and she was overseas and we met in church replace me there. beer served at the matter back there I met the bark. She sounds like a pretty amazing person. So how did you deal with a with all of this with you being overseas and in the middle of a battle area? It was and I think my wife, Has is, is, I think, the key component of my wife that made her and we ve been married for twenty years something years, I would tell it seems like forever but

No, we been married for long time through multiple. Women's overseas and I think for fur What makes her able to cope with this is that she's Emotionally independent from me, doesn't need my phone call every to reassure her, that everything's, ok and and that you know, when back or whatever she she's emotionally. Of course, these independent and she could handle- open water heater and the flat tire and the whatever other problems they sit kid she could handle all that stuff, so she independent that way, but she's emotionally independent as well and didn't rely on me every day to give her the boost. She's, a confident you know, squared away woman, so sands- guy you're, obviously anti feminist minutes as a former member of the military regime is obviously Yes, that's what we all assume this lively. I have three daughters and, and then one son and waters are. I wrote it

what books about kids for kids books called warrior kid way, the warrior kid, and it's about it's about kids. Instead of accepting weakness, it's about kids trying to become stronger, which to me seems like a pretty fundamental flaw. But if you re a lot of kids books and you have kids, you probably see him- there's not a kid books that actually tell kids hey. What do you want to do? What you want to work hard on? You wanna be stronger and you wanna. You want to be the best you can be so I did with my kids and I wrote these kids books for them, but yeah. My my daughters are our absolute warrior, kids and now they're warrior adults, but so you bring a lot of lessons from the military to the civilian areas. Have you learned anything in sort of the business area that that you think would be a to the military. But what have you learned in civilian life that you think added to what already knew from here from your service for the biggest more shocking thing, and I learned about the civilian sector- was that leadership is leadership and and the same problems that up a company with employees would have are literally

the same problems that a simpleton with sixteen guys would have, and learning that beginning to understand. I didn't take me very long at all. As soon as I looked up sitting down with the first seal I work with and he started the problems they were having and I'd just live inside. I was just chuckling then you gotta be kidding me. I've seen this over and over again with a sealed doing. Here's what the issue is. Let's address it this way, so that thousand. Biggest lesson learned from his leadership is leadership is leadership you're pretty intend stewed you're the only person I've ever had on this is podcast cast. You probably speaks. quickly as I do serve. You have always been like that. Or is there something that's gotten into trouble? How What was the something that you cultivated you're? Always this intensive person? No, if you listen to my car park ass, you will find that I actually talk very slowly generally, but it depends on you know. Sometimes you gotta get your point across and you know it. I know you're audiences probably adequate pay said? I want to hear my my slow talking again. You know my podcast, I'm I'm usually dealing with with very heavy subjection. I talk about war and I,

talk about atrocities in your and really is about just about human nature, futile. Of leadership, and so The subjects are heavy. Sometimes that warrants a little bit more a little bit more nuanced. When I'm talking and buddy, I guess If I'm talking as fast as you, that's a scary thing. So what do you? What do you think it is about human nature? So, let's talk about that a little bit. What do you? What? What do you see human beings as what is our fundamental nature, because this is what all politics is about your again, but the one most interesting things about human nature is that all human beings are completely different and yet all human beings are our kind of the same and why One thing that you find is that through and through other atrocities. Is you see human nature be revealed, and what I do, the pot gas from perspective the better- you understand human nature, the better you can lead people because

you've got to understand where they're coming from you gotta understand how their ego is going to react to things. You've got to understand, like you said earlier, when people get defensive, how do you get around that? You gotta understand what what people don't like to expose. You gotta understand how they're good interact with other people. Have you gonna come across when you get aggressive or not aggressive enough, so the better? understand human nature,. the better you're going to be able to lead, and one of the things you always just adopt as just a west point. As a matter of fact, and I was talking to the the soldiers to be up there- and one of the things I was talking about- was the fact that I said: listen. You take up to an army of marine corps, contributing a simpleton inside I appeal to you, ve got person in there. That's a sadist therein them you ve got and people you ve got another person that is, is one of the most wholesome good people you could ever imagine you got both of em and you got every person in between and if you

don't understand that as a leader, if you don't understand what these individuals work for you are capable of. Then that's going to be problematic. When you're in a leadership position so understanding human nature, understanding that there is good and there's evil inside of everyone and everyone's capable of going in those russian oil. I covered the meal. I masker on my part gaston when I was up at west point. I was parking, and I got looks from the crowd from some of the actual current leaders. Macleod unlike wait? Wait? Would it mean we don't have we sadist, we'll have a murderer inopportune, and I said you know think about the meal. I masker Amelia masker was a company of normal people and its a horrific podcast, listen to because no what kids from all over america that you we think in a million years would commit atrocity once day. crossed over that line they were coming horrible rape mutilation and murder and what was really interesting about this, and when I did that pod gas,

I d bring home something good about it. What I brought home and in the way, the point that I took away without it what happened on their master, these guys we're in a complete malay of murder, rape, mutilation. It was, it was awful and Copper pilot came in Saul was happening, went back to base and he told man, hey these guys are out there committing an atrocity. A commander got on radioset, stop killing people right now, and you know what they all stopped. They all stop right there, and that was proof that, to me is proof of the power, were of leadership, because it was a bad leader? It took him in a bad direction and they went off them off completely off the rails and a good leader step. and was able straight them back up. That's the kind of but if you don't understand that that element of human nature as a leader, especially in in chaotic and com situations, but even in a business people understand those things, it's gonna be problematic

Obviously, we've seen this from civilized armies, Oliver, the world situations where things go wrong and suddenly people who are innately civilized, you thought, are suddenly acting uncivilized as a leader. By the worst off early or you can only stop at once its begun. I think the way you stop it early as you have to: u have to addressing early, you have to wayne to everyone has to understand where you stand as a leader. What where you stand as a leader and where you stand as a nation right. We can't do this kind of thing. This will hurt our strategic goals this will impact us in a negative way on this particular battlefield and most important? I will not let it happen so again, I mean in the battle of ramadi. Was it was it? It was a hard fight and you can see I mean I could see. You've got when when, when one of my guys gets killed and his friends have to go on a mission a day later These are three days later. This is awful and if you don't,

You don't understand what can take place. Nothing would take place. But if you understand what can take place, then it might- and so you do you have to be aware of it? And I that's. Why think awareness and understanding of human nature is what will prevent these things are happening because you don't know you don't you know what maybe you're good judge character. Maybe I'm a good judge character. Maybe I get eighty percent right, maybe, the judge a eighty percent pay. This guy looks like he might do something bad, and this guy looks like he'll. Never would maybe I'm eighty percent right the other twenty percent as the one that's gonna, is gonna, be a problem, the times that you're wrong, because we don't know you don't know what happens to people in distress, you know what happens when people see their friends get wounded or killed you don't you you're talkin early about you're an imminent death right It's like a job. Ok, we'll talk about a minute about your imminent death. You're in combat the this, that's a real thing and depending on your mindset. Your death can be completely imminent. In your mind,

and so what is that, due to a person psyche? What is that allow them to do that? They may never do in a normal circumstance. As a leader, you gotta understand those things. What do you do you're not a later. What are you just not natural leader, but your but you're, being led by what do you think is just not doing the job what did you do that then there They situations in certainly civilian life, where your boss, an idiot. What do you do? What you do is what what would you do if you have your boss in it, it will first of all those situations occur in the military all the times. What will be the military does not completely weed out everybody to know that there is a bell curve in the military. Just like any other any other organisation, there's some great guys at the top. There's ok people in the middle some people in the middle squared away people, the middle and there's some real bad meter at the bottom end, and you don't know who you're gonna get. So this is a question all the time. What do you do in your leader is not good? Well, it's really easy answer for me, my leaders and good. You know what I do. I need to step up elite. It depends on the situation. If I have a weak leader, I can literally step

meat because my leader doesn't want to make a decision. Hey boss, we're gonna do this. Is that? Ok, I'm not your step on it. It's cause. We gotta be very careful that I'm not stepping on my leader's toes cause. Then we might offend their ego that can be problematic, but I'm going to step up and and say: hey boss. We want to do this. Is this makes sense, yeah, ok, that makes sense to it. If I've weekly up of me, if I have an eagle maniacal leader. That is, crazy micromanaging. What I'm gonna do and the same thing I'm gonna do with every leader, I'm going to form a great relationship with them. in the former great relationship or if your micromanage me makes I'm going to say, hey boss. I know you wanted these twelve things reported to you. Well, it was good enough you're. Sixteen things you wanted in the report, so I want you to really understand and know what's going on boss here, you go, I'm going to give you more information than you could ever, possibly even hope for, and eventually recite: ok, jocker you what justice going? Do your fit if you're going to build, I'm going to build relationship with you, I'm going to build trust with you, whether another thing that shocks people I worked for on that

curve of great leaders, normal leaders, I work for all of us. I work for a credible, strategic tactical masters that were inspiring leaders and I work for Just ego maniacal, tactically horrible leaders and everyone in between and my relationship with, all those leaders was the same with all those eaters. I had the same wasted. They trusted me they gave me what I needed to get the job done and then they got out of my way. Let me do it, how did I while building those relationships. Well again, how could you ask you something? dump that doesn't make sense, and I know I would never do this and I think you're a bad leader for making me do it gets warmer. Do I'm going to do it if, if it's something. That's not going to put my men in jeopardy or the mission in jeopardy. I'm going to do what you want me to wear this certain thing a certain way, I'm going to do it you're going to do the mission a little bit different than the way I would have done it, but that's your guidance, I'm gonna. Do it I'm gonna make you trust me,

I'm, going to build up trust with you so eventually, when you tell me to do something that makes no sense whatsoever, that's going to put my men in jeopardy or the mission in jeopardy. I can look at you and say: hey. You know what ben. I see what you want to get done. How but we do it this way. I think it's gotta make a little bit more sensible. Keep everyone safer. You and I now have a relationship. We trust each other you trust me? You go! Oh, you know a jackal good call go ahead and do it that way so situations, what am I gonna? Do I'm rebuild relationship, okay, so what? What do you do as a going back parenting for a second yeah, we're talking about leadership, lessons that adults can learn? How do you Ok, leadership in children. You see some kids as you now get one. happens to be a real natural leader. People tend to follow her. And the other one is, is two and a half is wild How do you inculcate leadership in in kids daddy teach those lessons from time their young there?

I the same answer for what you do with your kids is the same answer. You do with a young seal that you want to step up and become a better leader. How do you do it? You put them in charge of things you put them in charge of things you'll. Let them step up and lead whether it's something big it's something small. You start them off small business. You start them off with something: that's not going to cost a bunch of money if they mess it up or something you can bring back on the rails. If they'd go off the rails, a little bit in combat. You give them a mission, that's not that dangerous or it's a training mission and you let them run it as a kid hey. You know I mean it's not something as silly as a lemonade stand right. That's that's a real thing when you're a kid, that's a real thing when you're a kid: that's api, That's google, when you run That way lemonade stand. So let em step up. Let him take leaders Let him take some heads. Maybe they lose money when you, when you ve charge, him you charge him the money that it costs for the lemonade mix, and you know it costs whatever four dollars: ninety nine cents for the lemonade mix and you take it from them, and then they don't make that money back on the street. Let him or not lessen, let him for on how to make it happen. So again you put out the guard rails, but most of all,

to try and develop leaders. You put people in leadership positions, you don't let em you don't let em I don't want him fall flat on their face, you don't in a business, you don't let em caused their company a giant amount of money, but you do brush up against failure as a leader when it's time to cut somebody loose. First of all the reason people feel bad, usually when they fire. Someone is because they know that they didn't do a good job as a leader, mentoring, coaching teaching and then finally- explaining the person explained to the person in no uncertain terms. Here's what I expect from you and here's: what's gonna happen, if you dont, do it you're gonna get fired so The way you know Well, you ve gone through those steps and second of all realise that they cannot meet the expectations. You ve gotten unfair treated, and now you say, listen you you nor capable this job and right now negatively, impacting the whole team and- I wanna take care you, but it's more and more

that I take care of the whole team so the right, your great resume call anyone back that everybody wants reference. Use me as reference I'll, take care you, but this this job just isn't you said you would ask you one final question: I want you to evaluate president trumps leadership, but if you wanna hear jack are willing to answer. You have to be a daily wire subscriber to subscribe to the daily wire dot com. Click subscribe. You can hear the end of our conversation. There will jock a willing thanks so much for stopping by check out the jocko podcast and go get his new book that I caught of leadership to pleasure to have you here. I really appreciate it. Thanks rob appreciate the Ben shapiro show sunday special is produced by Jonathan hay, executive producer, Jeremy, boren, associate producers, mathis glover and Austin Stevens edited by alex zingaro audio is mixed by dylan case aaron makeup is by just one other entitled graphics by cynthia and angola Ben shapiro show sunday special is a daily wire forward, publishing production copyright for publishing twenty eighteen

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