We teach that the story of america, the story of the west, the story of tyranny and pray and when, in reality, the story of the west is this amazing story of overcoming those things the are here with Jonah Goldberg, and I can't wait to jump into our conversation with Jonah about his brand new book. The suicide of the west, which is a fantastic, read and everybody should buy the first time to sell you something else. So we're never going to agree on everything, but I think we can all agree that we can use more sleep and getting a great night's sleep is easier and more affordable than you think you don't need expensive, mattress, sleeping pills, sleeping just need to change your sheets, which is why should check out bull and branch? Everything bullet branch makes the betting the blankets all made from pure one at percents, organic cotton, which means starts out super soft gets even softer over time. You buy directly from them, so you're, essentially paying wholesale prices wash your sheets can cost up to one thousand bucks in the store, but Bolin branch eats those

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I didn't say that I was great listening to you at at one and a half speed- was really good yeah. So what's it so, let's jump into. Let's start with your book, then we'll get the everyday politics or trump, and all of that which I'm sure the rank the trade that everyone will enjoy, but let it startled by talking about your bustling book of easier, you been under ten percent here for a while, and the book itself is an exploration into enlightening. Ideals why we got here and why we are falling off. So, let's start with the easy question: why are we falling off? Is the one they did? That seems to be the most puzzling to folks. Like you, you talk in the book about we are falling, From falling back into tribe was the enlightenment is, is is a miracle that happens. You called the miracle in the book, but why? people are disowning at. Why aren't we appreciating the stuff around us? so one caveat. I like you what has two thumbs unlikely likes this guy right, but I dont do it. Steven pinker does just say the enlightened. Was this one thing I sort of taking a page might myers, and so I married an ax murder when it

when light mints, if it's not scottish its crap, Ok, it's french enlargement! Does not my bag, withers and good guys in the french environment. But it's not my back. I think one of the reasons why we're falling off is essentially that we teach ingratitude right. So I closed the book with his big call for grabs. because this miracle, which is sort of liberal democratic capitalism, the rule of law, it's not just sort of the alignment. Remark at all it's this. Would you What cuba billinger would call in in germany The kwon right, if the whole package right, rather than be grateful this unbelievable miracle that pulled us out of the muck of human history for two hundred and fifty thousand three hundred thousand years man. National environment was grinding poverty punctuated by an early death, either from some bow. doing disease or violence right and then once and only once, because some weird crap that happens in england, we start coming out of it and that's like the goose italy's the golden right, it's street. We still don't really know why it happened. There are lots of good. There is, I guess, we're gonna argue that them,

at the end of the day, there is no consensus on why it happened and to me. I think that's a useful thing because, as as high or schumpeter would say I wasn't depends on values, cannot create once lost and cannot restore either so the The trick is, is the ceta save your comes just goose? comes into our lives. It lists a set apart. It extends our lives it for the first time in human read the average human being wilson. three dollars a day. You know If I had to go and goose, I built a fence around it. I give a good food and take care of it. What can I get you today? Mr goes right. Instead, we have a policy of a cultural policy, is suicidal policy from all the commanding heights of the culture to teach people to be ungrateful right, the opposite of attitude is entitlement and resentment, and the story, teach that the story of amerika the story of the west, the story of tyranny and oppression and crew.

de in bigotry when, in reality, the story of the west is this amazing story of overcoming those things, every civilization in all of human history? Since the agriculture revolution had slavery, slavery is not what defines western civilization. The fact that we ended it is is one of the things that defines western civilization, so I want to teach about things like slavery, I want to teach them. So we can tell people the good story about how we got rid of it, not that we have it and instead what you get from the sort of howard in crowds and identity, politics, ground are these arguments, the basically say that it's not used to be the are they are easily? The army was works. The critical rather we're not living up to our standard, I'm totally open to that right, that's that with the moral grandeur of martin Luther king is Martin washin speech was egg you, guys aren't living up to the best story. You talk about yourself, different ideas, right, no prom those kinds of indictment. Somebody might disagree, the specifics, but as a principle and now the argument but free speech on campus.

All sorts of once considered sort of ideals about individuality about merit? Those deals themselves are now being taught as being inherently suspect or oppressive or cruel or bigoted, and that is a suicidal choice. I think there are other things around capitalism. Capitalism doesn't just simply destroy bad customs. It also is relentlessly corrosive to good ones, and so it takes work and upkeep to maintain the family to maintain petitions to maintain on religious organisations and released commitments, because their real. was rationalism of the marketplace and less it is, is sort of temper and held at bay by other cultural norms, can have negative consequences as well, so that so that's your what is happening, but why? Why was it it from there? fifties and on. Basically, especially, the united states has decided that all of these old things

need to be put away and capitalism needs to be assaulted, where's that coming from their theories about the frankfurt school, their theories about the decline of religion. America, if you had a kind of credit description for what was the mindset that into this rejection of the golden goose right, where, where did that come from because the truth is that your book really should be called the rise of the west, not the suicide of the west. The vast majority of it is about how he got out of the muck in the first place. That's really only a very- and you start talking about. You know the the attitude, but I guess I'm asking a different question, which is where ingratitude springing from ok happen. I would make the argument which is controversial someplace. Is that so I've sort of had a reawakening or rethinking about my understanding. In my view, towards ideology. Generally, I still am electoral history. I still think I'd really like arguing about this subtle distinctions, the end of the day? I've come to believe that, basically, almost all forms of collectivism, socialist

you know the cult of unity, moral equivalent war, whatever whatever labeling fascism when put on these things, are basically different trade names for the same impulse which this sort of tribal desire to get all your from their group. This recently in general, will and answers bring up, or so as I think that, where there is the frankfurt, school or or so other sort of left wing, identity, politics ideology. I think the original cause of our problems stem from essentially romanticism. Romanticism Where is a subject that no one wants to revisit, because with bad memories of reading poets. We didn't understand or something like that, we're not understanding things, whatever that's fine My understanding romanticism, is that, basically, it is the argument that your own personal feelings, your emotions, member, actions and feelings are just synonyms for your instincts, basically right for your gut that these are the highest sources of truth. These are the highest sources above

sissy, and because part of my arguments that capitalism in democracy and the market are fundamentally unnatural phenomenon. This is that romanticism is really just your inner primitive screaming. In your ear saying the world shouldn't be like this and it on different forms in different places like snow centres as waste, presumably is sometimes it's brilliant editors wars. It means that it takes on its on all sorts of fascinating. Different voices is, but it is this whispering thing that says the inner land of your own feelings. What should eliminate the world and we hear so much the stuff about you know in from all over, culture mean animism, informs rock road from starwood movies informs all these kinds of things. You trust your feelings, luke right always kind of stuff, where any notions of external authority. Traditional authority are suspect, and that is a story that begins basic. with the second the enlightenment appear is basically there is this counter reaction to it all romanticism and

These two have been at war for all time they ve been at war, is an inherent tension. In western civilization within the enlightenment, based democracies. There is this conflict between self discipline and self russian. They can put it that thousand different labels on it, and, I think alike, of our problems stem from the fact that in this you know this eternal bad. Between lock and russo. Rousseau has been winning for a long time. Everybody controls the commanding heights of the culture from academia to hollywood. Music is basically one extent or another in on team rousseau, rather walk. So when it comes to conflict in lock in recent years, a third character, just historically speaking, whose very inform those voltaire researchers would half way between the two of them, One of the the critiques that I have a sort of binary distinction between lock in result is that the french revolution was tainted. ain't this as a mere division between french rival in politics and in british enlightenment, misses the fact

the french revolution, considered itself also basin on so wasn't a pure expression of romanticism alone. Voltaire. Considered himself be king of reason is ensured, and there was a cult of reason in revolutionary, France's one. My big problems with in the books that he goes for her fifty pages talking about the enlightenment and never mentions the french revolution or any of the philosopher. Basically he does this thing or if it didn't when philosopher the doesn't like it becomes a counter enlightenment, philosophy and august. The the question am asking: is our are you doing? Some of that with romanticism are we are we saying everyone I dont like is like rousseau in this romantic category or is there crossover there, because the truth is that marx has one foot in rationality and one foot and romanticism, and it seems like there's a a little bit more a blurring of lines. Then yeah so then went back to the great question. I'm glad to finally get a substantive question on this. Three weeks on the butter on so I am I It came out of working on this, but liking rousseau, a lot more horrible human being rather means mean horrible human being, but

much more interesting, much more thoughtful than I had so to give him credit, I'm, even though I had read a bunch, a result before part and part is again, I dont think intellectual history works. I use lock and rousseau, assembled stand in for two impulses right. These impulse were of em there's run straight through the human heart rollo Lothian. We all want to be recognizes. Individuals make our own unique contributions to the world that worth special we were gone. The world would miss ass right, that's a very lucky in kind of thing, but we only part of a group. We want to get some of our meaning from being part of coz, its larger than herself want to derive some meaning for our. tribulations to us some collective endeavour. Neither These things are evil right So part of my argument is that their that nature is not inherently evil or good humour. it. Human nature is the one eternal constant what

what is good or bad are the institutions and morals and customs that we create a channel human nature towards productive end, so something very were sewing about being a believing in orthodox jews, part of a larger community criticism, but I whatsoever what I have a problem with his when you take that soda rousseau in religious spirit that affiliation spirit and you. try to get out of politics. What would it we rightly reserve from religion right and that that would bring me to my my point about the french revolutionary. I agree with you that they they eve that they were invoking reason, but I think that the second you start talking about the cult of reason and you declare air that the cathedral of notre dom will now be the temple of raising awareness start over eight years euro or something going on, and so with it the the

remember all these guys were deeply influenced by russo m and they they they disinterred him and they marched his body through and rebury them. That's right! I mean they. Basically I mean they treated him the way the iranians treated the body of the I I told Khomeini. I mean they really were nuts about them, and, and so one of the key differences, I would argue between the sort of scottish british enlightenment and the french in layman- is that the the french enlightenment sought to make reason is a a replacement for religion and rubs beer very honest about how they were trying to call made the religious instinct, there wasn t v intense nationalists, and we want to create this sort of the idea that french with a new jews, new chosen nation and all that an, and so I think, part of the problem that I think is fascinating. That will show up on this better than almost anybody else. She I recognise that the french feel ISAF's were behaving like the priests path the catholic church had in the un's regime, they were

bidding the sin of what an english philosopher, hat harrington calls priest trapped so like. The ancient greek priests who claim to have special knowledge about the energy of birds and could tell you whether you are when a war whatever right, they were using their guild like power over the minds of men to manipulate people for their own benefit, and that's what we're so at the philosophical in the champions of reason, we're doing what other thing that the jack bins in those guys believed in which, as to borrow a phrase from social science, back one ok, they believe in the perfectibility of man, and that is big difference. I think, between the english between the two indictments right, an I talk about this open the book, one of rate sort of illustration sort of like this lock verses rousseau thing between the two different cultures is. and you ve olive and gets a lot of. This is book on thomas painted bert than the french of versailles right, the typical enlightenment, french gardens are always crazy courts

through carve. You know bushes, where linear angles that can't be found in nature, nor was gonna stop and the angle. got? An english conception of a garden was just simply This zone of freedom, where the inhabitants of the garden could either best cell? right so view. As is you you all like to point out in burke. Often metaphors and language are about space, giving people space to pursue happiness as they see it. People space to fulfil themselves, all of them language, from pain and or from the the french was towards was was a direction where adding towards the promised land we're heading towards a utopia and that's why I think that I think there is that tension that tension comes up. That story comes up over and over again in western civilization of the those who believe in the perfect billy of man is, we believe in the perfectibility man. You also believed the perfectibility of society, because you can't get one without the other and those who serve tee.

Like the founding fathers did human nature as a constant and the best, you can hope or is it good society, not a perfect society, and I can't remove how we got here. That's I think that'll do for now. Yes, I'm em. They ask you in just a second about the rule religion in all of this, because I know some of the criticism of your book, including some for me- has been about going back further than the enlightenment and when the roots of that, but before we get to that first, I want to say thanks to our sponsors over at Georgina every dude looks better in a suit and indo. China is the world's largest made to measure men's wear company. They been featured in major publications, including GQ, forbes, fast company that makes suits and shirts made to your exact measurements for a great fit Dudes love the wide selection of high quality fabrics, the options to personalize all the details, including your lapel lining monogram. So here's how it works. You visit a showroom or shop online at indo, chino, dot com. You can pick your fabric, you can choose your customizations, you can submit your measurements and then just wait for that customer suit to arrive in a few weeks. I did this over in beverly hills. It's really a great process, it's really enjoyable and you get a really nice suit. On the other end, this way

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Are there that the enlightenment revolution in britain was based on the idea of respect for a certain level of customers? The french revolution comes in and they just say everything is getting overturned. It was specifically designed to strangle the lasted the. What is it strangled lick? It will ass king what they got to the last priest, the other main fairyland voltaire line. So it's that means that We reject the hour too far in rising reason is the only value without enough respect accustomed, because I think that one of the things that may have happened in the world haven't twentieth centuries, exactly that that are, on the one hand, you have this wild romances in the you talk about it and on the other hand, you have the materialists atheists. Him that's arisen, as basically said we are sent, balls of me, wandering through the universe and will make our own will make our own purpose somehow, despite No free will will make our purpose and that this sort takes the heart out of human beings, that this makes you ungrateful for the society that that you have it's built on. Supposedly all these old awful institutions we have to do away with right. So you know later I am not an atheist for sentencing

well there's no got in this book is what I am and do is persuade people who disagree with me. An appealing to god is. It is a lot as as the as this dispositive authority, is a lot everybody up here. It's a logical fallacy. Unless you already stipulate the god did it right? So so am I atheist. I believe in god I I have enormous respect for religion, I'm a bad you, but I did, but I feel guilty about its. I think they're so, and so I am perfectly happy the polar german corbyn and say it all starts with the Jews right. but in a positive way, and so my take on It- would be that until You come along more or less gods. Are our servants, rather than our masters right, is about war fertility and give him a ball, you sacrificing pigeons whatever and they deliver

see for service with got right. Every city state has got its own god, and you know whatever that is done by machine exactly again and then I'm serve its got. Outta but forgot him now and then the Jews along and there's, is not a man, you guys got a completely wrong gods, don't work britain is only one of them and doesn't work for you, you work for him right and watching you all the time all of the time, which is a huge bomber right hand and A lot of things flow from this, including the sort of moral dignity of the individual, including for the first time. In ancient societies, women right but- Well, basically, this tribal thing is just for the Jews really cause that there in a in and an hostile territory. and then christianity comes on. Mrs those yachting argument, but christianity comes on. And universal eyes, as these jewish precepts and says not ever is worthy of dignity. Everybody is worthy of respect. The golden rules pretty important,

Christianity also comes along and creates this vitally important thing for the emergence of capitalism and democracy, which is a social space where religion isn't dispositive bothered every question right So it is an insidious god recipient right right. So if it starts with Jesus thing, render unto Caesar what has either right. And then you have seen a ghost in an alarming I don't seem to know that the city garden city, men, aren't places their states of mind right, and so there are some people who are just good christians, and but they're gonna live amongst people who aren't just simply for on almost pragmatic terms, saint Augustine argues gotta figure out a way for these people to live together without killing each other Ultimately, god is the only person who knows who saved and was not right, that creates social space fast forward, in other religious wars of europe. The treaty was failure was not a. no one was says no one said: oh, we fought these villages wars for a hundred years, because we

there's this wonderful principle of religious tolerance. There are like dammit, we just kill all the huguenot. I guess we're gonna have to figures on mountain and they come and it's sort of this this it's it's it's it's tolerance, of of martial exhaustion right and and that's where concepts like free speech come the right to be wrong comes out. of this social space, created where no one institution can control everything. So One of the arguments I would make coming at this from a more secular perspective on it is yet I entirely agree with you that we can even go way too far with the reason stuff. I would I I'm sort of a high again in my bones, which also makes me sort of a working in my bones I think that there is more what the heightened types we call embedded knowledge in social, sums and norms than we can get our heads around right. There are men, all that's all

it shares about how you know your grandmother was right about everything. While your grandmother is right about everything, because she inherited this vast amount of trial and error, wisdom that had accumulated over centuries or millennia, and you just about all the embedded knowledge that goes into virtually any cuisine you can eat. Write me, how many people died from eating this poisonous thing or this under cook. or the spoiled that I'm in they figured out how to put food- you don't say, It's like a price signal. You don't see all of the trial and error that goes into it. You get the end product and is very. Like Chesterton fence, you know we we the prom This is that we are raising people now that, we're raising generations be one, including among intellectuals, obama almost particularly among intellectuals who think that, just because they can't see the embedded wisdom trial and error that went into some customer norm. There must not be any in it man does not live by bread alone. Man is a as,

well the as will herbert one of my favorite intellectuals, who put it. Man should probably called homo religion, We were a religious where we are. We just beings you may have A strong case that it was an evolutionary adapted adaptation that allowed us to survive. Is it breathes out? Islam in cooperation and all of these kinds of harare, makes the case that allows you to expand beyond the one hundred and fifty person group, that's right, yeah and and and I'm open to all those arguments, I'm also open to the transcendent arguments. I I my only point is that thinking plato. You know he makes his point that something If something is true, it's true for a lot of reasons right. The number for equal is, for because what was one was one was one is for blossom this stupid donors for unknown all that kind of thing. You can come out from a lot of different places and one explanation, doesn't invalidate other explanations, could all be. Does god's plan it could be evolution or can be both? But I certainly think that you know a big argument about big part of my book is

on aren't like to say every generation western civilization is invaded by barbarians. We call them, children and It's basically a big chunk of the argument about right. There is this idea that you're not born into abstraction you're born into an actual family The family is what civilising what models behavior it. What teaches you right from wrong it teaches you how to use a knife and fork is you know it teaches you little stuff and all of the big stuff and it works on. I suppose that have nothing do nothing to do with the market. Right. I mean I am literally, I think I suspect you are to your far closer to a communist in your own family right it's because in your own family, it really is from each according their ability. Each going to their bank account the whole yeah. You don't you don't you don't charge your kids for food? Yet right you don't charge them rent, yet if they behave right

I give my kid rain or shine. When I asked leave town, I have covered the radiator and I give her a bowl. Kibble work has been a good or bad enacted, a damn right and that nobody, but what matters is that the values of what I call the microcosm are not based, on contracts and rationality, their based on deep powerful notions of solidarity and mutual obligations that are? much better expressed in represented. I religious concepts. Bites moral concept, not by rational concepts, and so big part meyer, either so high and the fatal concede thoughts, but microcosm macrocosm in the agriculture and let the world of kin, family friends where your values of reciprocity, trump market, no strikes the domain. Shaft versus the gazelles, and then the macrocosm. That's what s the way when you deal with strangers as and when

beautiful things by capitalism is, it turns strangers into existence from existential enemies, the customers right, and so you can't the values of the microcosm and impose them on the macrocosm without destroying liberty. You can, take the values of the macrocosm and apply them to microcosm, without destroying the The the the values and moral creating engine that is the family and civil society is the whole point, is to keep them separate. Keep you know, sort of like the the reese's peanut butter cut commercial, you gotta, keep the gamin shaft out of a gazelle anne, and if you don't do that, everything works, you know if you treat your family like its business enterprise unit, schwaiger family. If you treat the extended order of liberating like it's a family where president, is our father. Europe destroy liberty answer you, gotta, keep using separate and. capitalism is down on screen. Of the value creating engine that is the family. Mrs pack

my point of a. Why say all of the stuff that has ramesses an accident writing about one The common explanations for where capitalism comes from is max weber's, protestant ethic and the spirit of capitalism. Things are water, merit to it right, but what I One point out, as even with its true or not, and I think that the idea of it like protestants, invented savings so little if he for me, right now, venice, was, was engaged in a fair bit. Commerce white bread long time, but even you, take it on its merits, our its best case in the best way forward. It still lacks right, the the calvinists and the puritans they didn't say if you behave this whale we'll get rich this. If you behave sway odds are more likely that you might giving to Heaven. It turns out that when you change your internal habits of a heart near your beer, morals to things like thrift, delayed gratification, honest dealings, your ass, you gonna do better and business, but it wasn't it the prosperity gospel. And so this

Is that the that capitalism will fail, if we don't civilized, the barbarians are born into a family to be citizens in this civilization, and I argue one of the reasons why we have identity politics and all these other problems that are coming up is precisely because of family breakdown. Because civil society is is is eroding I'm in are retreating into their homes. To watch politics and stuff is an entertainment rather than money that's good, emily yeah there with these artificial tribes, suck again to borrow from social. And you know a facebook is fine for keeping up with your old man, that you met in the real world is horrible for, like actually creating a sense of real communities. Virtual commute is not community yeah. I noticed that on twitter, that was, that was one of the big lessons. I've learned twitter, it's not not natural community guys, it's actually more like a mob, but I let let's talk about, elysium for a second has and there's been. There

it's rich debate, you and I are actually on one side of the debate, and I know that rich lowry and some others have been on the other side of the debate. The nationalism vs patriotism debate, and I want to delve into that in just a second. But first I want to say thanks for sponsors over at man crates. So here is the problem with bob estate data is not going to tell you what to get him truth. Is he doesn't know what he wants, but this father's day you can give me a gift is guaranteed to love with man. Crates these are hand. Picked packaged gift for every type of dad, the knife they can get their hands on dad the axe, murder or the whisky appreciation. Great for fathers, white finer things most gifts. Have in a sealed wooden crate with a crowbar, so he actually gets to pry open the man crate with his own manly hands in front of everyone when's. The last time you gave your dad a gift. He needed a crowbar to open, probably never women, wait. You can, and it's awesome you're, giving your dad more than a gift you're, giving him a gift experience, unlike any other, I have gotten one from the people at the.

I was very grateful for his poker chips and came out with an ammo. Can it's really awesome? Was every man crate comes with a one hundred percents satisfaction guarantee get your special father's day discount today, at man, crates dot, com, slash ben guess, because I have a guest is a limited time offer only for father's day. Go that go there. Late man, crates, dot, com, slash Ben guest, one time, man, crates, dot, com, slash ben check it out. Ok, so you know if you study the ancient greek, you know of the correct pronunciation of those men cruelty, but I have to let me out of here: they ve been messing up now these years, so the nationalism, verse patrons and big gets to some of the aspects of travellers in there we ve talked about because there is, I think, it's fair to say, good travel is missing. The tribalism of ideas bad tribalism, isn t tribalism of race or the tribalism of class things that you can't change myself. That you're born into this would be bad tribalism and travellers of ideas where you are part of a group because you, I didn't part of this group-

These would be be a problem that is less likely to be a problem. Recently, I read a book by it's about going to come out in september, actually by a europe, has done over the herzl institute, and he he's very big proponents of nationalism and the reason that he's a proponent of nationalism and not just patriotism, as he says that there are these set of customs and histories that play into the the create of the tribe and simply can intellectualize tribalism to. Why agree with you on this list. Two propositions, therefore, we are not part of the same tribe, ignores the fact people have a natural inclination to identify with people who have a similar history is similar culture, a similar language. What are you that argument? Is there anyway to bridge that particular gap? So much standard analogy about all this is that every poison is determined by the dose ripe and so nationalism is a little bit like sought a pinch. things the meal together?

combines all the flavors well brings out the flavors really cells, the dish a little too much it ruins dish way too much is literally toxic, and so I'm with roger scruton. I haven't read this: you know I don't have the connections you do so. I haven't. I haven't gotten the bootleg copy of this book yet, but I have amps we no problem with the arguments from people like my colleague, rich lowry, or from from register, but a little nationalism is essential. You need some sort of sense of social solidarity and cultural filiation that binds together My problem is: is that if you listen to write Islam or our rich. This. This idea, a man of a politics of national unity to me as much more problematic, because You say that the highest ideal is not not patriotism. basically a creedle idea right. It is like there's a certain set of propositions that we agree on what is it step this sort of far more mystic idea. I mean

ryan and rich in Europe our prior, I would think in fairness, not asked no nationalist right there, not saying that only one in this your true americans, or through israelis or any of that kind of stuff right, but national comes very difficult to define really in a multi ethnic society, where there isn't an enormous amount of consensus, around customs and turns the consensus is around the creedle stuff, not the bear coat. The weird cultural stuff. and so manufacturing this sort of national this this kind. That of nationalism. I think very quickly, exclusionary to a lot of people. It was you seen as exclusionary by our people concerns me more is getting it sort of getting back to this microcosm versus macrocosm stuff Women in washington or the central government is the only institution that has they claim of speaking for the whole nation and oh almost invariably, when political parties control of government, take up the mantle of nationalism. It began.

say it becomes either socialism or some other form of statism, and one of them it's weird. Does this vestigial thing from marxism, but still teaches people that socialism and nationalism or opposite, which is a fight that the trotskyite lost. In the soviet union, but making twenty six they're not opposites their farmer off and the same thing read a speech by fidel castro. read a speech by Google Travis and replace every instance of the word socialist, with nationalist and ever We instance of the word nationalism with socialism. It doesn't she the meaning that any of the sentences Nationalizing industry, your socializing industry, nationally Health care is socialized, medicine, so part My problem with nationalism is that if you want to put teeth on the bones of people about that, you, wanna put flesh on the bones that the cold medicine kicking and if you want put flesh on the bones on a national programme, The only way to do it is by having some sort of large federal and

federal government endeavour, so that part of my problem with it. I also know it's also just worth pointing out that people think the nationalism is this ancient thing it's also a product of romanticism. If first comes more or less in germany as a response to the imposition first by. French revolutionary army in them by the napoleonic army of the enlightenment, which was seen as a foreign and french import and so these guys, like you, in fact anyone heard her creates mythical notions of german national identity as a response to all that. So s no nationalism is is, is fairly modern concepts have always been countries, This idea of national nationalism is fairly recent thing and it is in its origins inseparable from ass, no nationalism, I think now you have, a sort of you can have a civic nationalism actually were so is very good and civic national. While he also wanted to tell a darien statements with general eleven,

One thing at a time, and so I I just makes me nervous, I think the founding. I very much want to flip the pyramid. I think that I want to send as much power down was local level possible is when you do that. the issues that really do unite us all will become federal issues, national s right so abortion whereby rise a topic as it gets. the question of who is a human? Being slavery rose up get past. The question who is a human being but beyond a couple of those kinds of things, push everything else and was local level possible? The founding fathers argued you know in essentials, unity in everything else, liberty and the I don't understand. No one is able to explain to me how a programme of nationalism isn't also a programme of centralizing and federal government powers

and I'm opened arguments arguments, but at all any more measures made. One point to me that you know some trade stuff could be seen like getting out of paris accords with populist nationalist, but also not centralizing so there I am open to the possibility that there are more. I'm from centralisation outside the united states. That's right! It was a pull back from the globalists right, but in general I think, being colonel logic. They nationalist program that emphasise, Is that, rather than using it as sort of a background flavor with a pinch of salt invariably or the danger of turning of sliding into sort of top down So one of the things that that's really fun that we get to do is we get to sit around intellectualized about. Are that the state of the conservative movement there is one, an island ask about that, because there has been so much written in the past few years, particularly since the rise of president from about the deeds. Of the conservative movement. Both you and I were never trump in the sense that we did not vote for present trump. I believe that that we- both. Consider ourselves, then, because the lad, if I know

trump. It ended the day of the election, there's no more, there's no more, never trump after that, because now he's the president, and so it is good stuff and he does bad stuff and when he does good stuff, yea and whereas bad stuff, boo right, you have one president. At a time that was my eye, I wrote a column called, never trump nevermore. Where I said I wasn't going to start lying about the guy. I was going to call balls and strikes as I see it, but he won We have one present time, and so my you think I'm never. Tromp was always a personal one, which was amazement about warm. I wasn't gonna endorse. I didn't you one anyway. that's as if they were not so you're, sometimes from category right and then another that's what I so wouldn't want the pet beads. Obviously that I think both of us have experienced is this constant, and from some of the bigger trump fans that we must be her trunk. Every time we capper every time we we criticise him. How do you deal with with that criticism? And do you think it's even honest at this point? I I don't think that there's a lot of honesty to people who are labeling folks who Italy are not like. Never comes over the other.

Just use it as it is now being used as an epithet at a time when the epithet no longer applies, I would say. Maybe there are few people who are legit, never from persons when they brett Stevens general woman, the exact like David frum bed, but it's it's. We name the brightest, it's not like a movement there's. Doubtless this weird sort of notion: there's an central threat from never trump ers to take down, I don't see that at all. In fact, I'm on the horn with people at the white house on a not infrequent basis talking to them, because this exist anymore, like from the president. How do you? How do you deal with this? This drug? I drive. I share your frustration. I think there is a fundamental and its about because some of the people who are they very lazy shorthand right in people are doing in our friends of mine and I dont want like getting I've, I've, and our friends in the last two years you know, and so, but I think that What happens is to give some of them credit. One of the things that's going on is. They don't want to name names either right in

what they do is they just use, never trump. As this catch all thing, the home is when you use never trump as a catch. All very quickly becomes a strong man and so people and so people like you and me, you re, Would they saying you're like we'll wait? Are they accusing me of this bs in one was. Why did I haven't done this? But since there not naming names and since so many people on twitter, and elsewhere. Just sort of reform to me or you or anybody was ever criticise, drop, has never trump they leave. It so sufficiently ambiguous that feel, like maybe they're they're they're, taking a shot at you when maybe they don't have you in my room we be, they do have generally been in mine and so part of I, I think in a lot of ways, it's a lot like the way neo cons started to get used in the first part of of the bush administration, where it it distorted more than it reveal right turn into europe, either jew or iraq. War support right at the new definition or both biggest having warmonger things better and and and so we have no, I

it is a is a is a frustrating thing and what happens in it. Bothers me is sort of as a writer is the way people use it, as as a way to score cheap points with all our programme. People by speaking time the power while at that in reality there speaking truth to a level that they don't put any detail? two. So cinnamon asked a tough question: how much which is it even great president? From so far, I usually great him along a couple of a great amount executive policy agreement, legislative policy- and I great him on rhetoric, because it's very difficult to give him in overall great because he's all over the place, some places he's hammer heading and ale, places. He is a hammer hitting a baby you're, so I had a how would you great his his administration so far and then askew the brutal follow up, so I am glad to say that.

not a big fan of the moral equivalence between a hammer hitting a male inheriting a baby? Yet, but I mean it, I'm so sorry, I'm not gonna ways out of it, but I will say a front. There is a raging debate in washington about how much of the start of the good stuff trump is done, has happened because of him or in spite right, so one of the things that drove me crazy, but steve, Bannon and all that stuff? Was this constant drumbeat about how Mitch Mcconnell was the enemy of donald trump Mitch Mcconnell has been the single greatest guarantor guarantor of trump's legacy. Among conservatives he's the guy who's gotten all of these federal judges across the finish line and He I think you know I do. I agree with Mitch Mcconnell everything no, but I think he deserves enormous credit for that not to be sort of demonized and so a lot of the stuff like the stuff

was on with the e p a the regulatory stuff, the fcc stuff, that the fda stuff, I think, is great. I don't I. I think that, basically, what donald trump is done is basically says, do all the good stuff and then he just doesn't pay attention take that anyway, but there is this. There is this idea out there that he's actually managing and governing, and paying attention to the details when, in reality, one of the sort of accidental by products of the way trunk came into office? Is that lot of the regular party types we take jobs in administration and so the straight. Thank goodness, went and got a lot of including a lot of friends of mine, hard core movement. Think tank. True believers who went in there and who knows how long this thing's gonna last, let's get some stuff done right,

I am all in favour of that, so so going by the normal rating process, which is that whatever happens on a presence watch that president gets credit for domestic regulatory stuff I gave em, you know somewhere between a b plus and at a minus, ok and then on foreign policy. Had he had a great you. I think there are a couple of things. The only trump would have done, very few, but there are few that are important. Right me. Maybe take rules would move the embassy to Jerusalem, maybe maybe but almost none of the other guys ran right. So the Jerusalem move pulling out of paris, which I think was a was not not the big deal. People make it out to be, but symbolically was a big deal. Origin. The out and enshrined actually broker an alliance yeah. No, I think that's right, although again, I think you know, it- may be more byproduct of obama's horrible rear out with a lot of trumps victories are the product of obama's failures right Andy.

Obama so messed up the the the game board that created these awesome opportunities for trenches, so on the foreign policy stuff, again, with a caveat that I dont all that much of a disease intentional some of his biggest fans, don't stop when people say Ok, so that is so then did here's the brutal follow up. So I will ask the brutal follow up and one second first emanate in a I'm to have to pitch some life. So our friends over policy genius make sure we are covered in case you die now you're, not thinking you're going to die. I know you're sitting there and you're thinking. Listen, I'm just listening to this podcast. Why are you bothering me about death? Well, tough, These folks you're gonna die, and that means that one day your family will be left bereft. If you did not actually go out and get life insurance, almost a hunter Some people think buying life. Insurance is a pain in the neck. However- and they are largely right, which lie policy genius exists- is the easy way to ensure you can compare life insurance online. It just five minutes. You can compare, quotes It's happened chairs to find the best policy. You also genius geniuses help over four million people shop for insurance and place of origin.

a billion dollars in coverage. They don't just make one. insurance easy, also compared disability, insurance and renters insurance and health insurance. If you care about it, they can cover itself. If in thinking about getting life insurance go to policy genius, dot com, it's the easy way to compare the top insurers and find the best policy for you. You'll be saving time and money and hassle, and it's free. Our policy genius. Don't leave your family without money if a blot make sure that their protected life insurance not need to be a pain in the neck, go into it, policy, genius, dot, com so here is the brutal followup electricity debo for present interim, whose rohingya Joe Biden still probably not I don't have a job. I need an elephant washing dizzy. I could truly could give, You think so so wise also, why? What's the what's? The downside voting for president from these are basically say at this point. Here is my

going into the election and neither was voted for president president trump? They were talking about some weird, two thousand and eighteen special election right he's, acting as one or two thousand and eighteen special action. Nothing has changed between now and two thousand twenty he's got into a basement spread is frozen. It's it's did say. If I lived in ohio and twenty sixteen, I would have voted for Hillary Clinton. I wouldn't have one available and I probably would have voted for So is it so the things that I was worried about what president trumpet threefold. I was worried that he was going to sell, sacked the party, which seems too in somewhat among elected officials, but does not seem to happen among intelligentsia or even the people who are necessarily conservative voters. we're not going from young voters or people who deal with a frequent basis. I I was worried He was going to turn it did then that he was going to pursue policies that were not conservative, because he'd been all over the place, obviously, and then he's now governed as a pretty deeply conservative, didn't, even if he doesn't believe a lot of stuff and then

My third worry, which is still my worry, which that he would toxify the republican party brand for so long. That would actually do serious damage down the line for young people mail. in alleviating concern. There is that the damage may have already been done so as if the damage is already done, then, are you really making damage any worse? If, if he's president for eight years and so forth, so with that said, if the election were held today against Joe Biden, I wouldn't have much of a problem pulling lover for him. Even though I live in California, my vote doesn't matter so what? What? What exactly is the biggest holdup for you, and I don't mean to be a god, yeah I get it. You know, and I reserve the right to change my answer later. Frizzle. the part of my argument. My book is about the importance of rhetoric right that that, basically, this miracle that happens easily happened because the way we talk about ourselves to ourselves about ourselves changed profoundly, and I think, as a matter of statesmanship and rhetoric, the way Donald trump talks about this country. The way that

trump talks about politics. The way Donald trump talks about his opposition, I think, is more damaging both as a sort of just rank punditry brand question, but I also think it is deserved it is it is. damaging to art sort of political health in the long run? I also you know. I am not convinced yet, by any stretch of imagination that the trumpet presidency ends well. My position has been from the beginning that no character is destiny and I dont know that, and I think that at the end of the day, the fundamental thing about donald trump, as is the person of bad character, and if someone could come up with a definition of good character that was plausible, but donald trump could clear. I would love to hear it. I have not heard it yet. Most of its values are basically sort of me, jane values, winning strength, defeating your aunt em Is getting praise and that stuff really turns me off so as a potential question Maybe I will vote for trump in again

Joe Biden in a weird twenty eighteen sort of election, but my stance towards trump wouldn't change appreciably anyway, as it I mean this is right that I agree with how these your critique of trump, like the voting question, is, is one that we just have to get off the table, because so many people boil down your view to which vote for him or not, which is exactly what happened in two thousand and sixteen. It didn't matter that the people stopped if the criticism and whether it was valid or not it just turned into you- are either a member of the tribe or you are not a member to this part of my problem with what's going on and it sort of gets your never trump or question from before. I keep trying to make this point that that trumpism should not be looked at as as a ideological phenomenon. It is a psychological phenomenon and both in terms of trump's own brain which you know he admits, he's a guy works on instinct in one's be flexible. He doesn't really care about conservatives up his support for it, of judges is entirely trains actual, thank god. You know he basically someone I'm looking,

forcing now there s a lot we can. I got someone told him you just gotta give them. Well society and Leonard LEO our blush- to come up with names and will love you for great, that's fine, but this is the same guy who wanted to put a sister on the supreme court, and so What bothers me about the way the discourse works with tromp is that, for instance, anytime. I raised from its it just disappears like without a rebel right. No one cares. No one, no, no, always trump good for you joan I got, but I could I bear you, go again bob about right, so there is weird hyper tension about anything, critical of trump and trump encourages this, because when he cares about most is praise And so the best example, this back on banning was still in office because of the white house.

Kodi can only have three layers of, and he was hungry. primary mitch, Mcconnell and all the sounds. We were always going to stuff because they weren't supporting the trump agenda, basically pelted Jeff, flake and corker from public life right and tried to and it was ass- they wanted with Mcconnell Mcconnell, voted with trumps agenda in the senate. Like ninety eight percent, he was trump's agenda in the senate. Corker with ninety percent flake was like eighty percent But what offended people about those guys wasn't there support their lack of or for public policy agenda. Is there wasn't a lack of support. it was that every now and then when trump said something bad are worthy of criticism. They said something and that drove his borders crazy? Who only want to hear praise for him and meanwhile ran Paul, didn't or to undermine down

agenda in the senate in terms of repealing obamacare and a few other things than almost anybody else like this gina hassling but ran Paul, keeps praise and honour bond donald trump, and so no one gets mad at him so people say: look I just care if it's a transactional actual thing, I just care about trumps agenda. I just want to get things done and yet aim all their ire and anybody who criticised the strong and not the people who actually undermine his agenda. I think something this is going on and as it is psychologically the thing that borders on called the personality from people. I think the motivations are all over the map. Some people just don't want to They want everybody in the pool so that anything that comes out of the trunk presidency now can say, I told you so about some people. don't wanna be reminded of their own hypocrisy. You know there are hopeful the people who got very rich talking about the import of moral values and fidelity and marriage the character who I'll say all that stuff is prudery, they dont want to be reminded of it. I I get the

psychological phenomenon, I just haven't seen a lot of evidence that this is really about a policy agenda or or anything like that. So one of the things that I think has happened here is there's been a conflation between anti left and conservative people who have decided. These are both the same thing rush limbaugh the granddaddy of so many of us in the conservative movement who grubman for me. I grew up listening to rush the in the middle of last election cycle, he shifted the institute for advanced conservative studies and renamed the abbess institute of anti left studies. They actually rename it I and for president, it feels like. A lot of support from comes from. That is that from hits the right people and he's hit by the right people and their or whatever he does, is worthy of praise and honour. How do we establish. You know it, the category of conservative falls inside anti laughed, but not everything antella falls inside concerned with. How do we rest control of the anti left movement away for is being merely anti laughed and more toward the classical liberal might mean values. There is bound to side of last night. That's a good question, your request, your area.

I used to have a similar distinction. He used to say that you know that he was anti laughed, not anti state and when and by that was he had no problem with public schools, teaching good conservative moral values, but he had a huge problem with the public. Schools were going to teach absolutely crappy, left wing values, and so for him, an argument for school choice mean I don't want to distort his position, but at from that perspective an argument for school choice was a was because he needed a corrective to the bad values being taught not the evil status. the government funding public schools right and I think, there's something similar going on today. I I think that there's a in it. I think it's a fascinating dye marker to see who gets upset about this. When I say this because it's happening Two times now, I think one of the things that has been deeply corrosive corrupting on the right has and I'm partly to blame for it, because I was one of the first offers to really shine a light on solemn linsky in my first book,

I was shining a light on solid linsky, the point. What a bad duty was right when he literally dedicates his book. see that it's hell am I and so on, and what happened over the last ten fifteen years. Is a bunch of people said, look how effective owens he was in. It says what we gotta do. Is we gotta fight like them and and so what happens as it goes from being or of the conservative mindset, as you put it, the anti left mindset and the proper Ms, is that when, at some point, if you aren't now that we need to adopt? enemies means. for our own ends comes very easy as a fact of human nature to to to lose sight of what you're ends were in the first place and the means become self justify, and so that's why you note some, as I put in the book, some

However, politics this days these days on the left and the right is defined by what I call ecstatic schadenfreude just the things are worth doing solely because Women's here are delicious writing alike it. It is a joke and I look. I've made a most living for a long time eating it's full of liberal tears and all the rest. But that can't be the only justification right, even if it's like a you know, you've talked a lot more campuses than I do. but I ve been on a hundred campers last fifteen years in in one of these I was try to tell young college. Kids is just. because being a jack ass is politically incorrect is not an option. For being a jacket, yep and am, but that the kind of confusion you get when you mistake means France. Now and you want to collect Liberal tears ass, you win arguments, you dont want to collect one level he's just because europe, a cruel jackass and but if you if confuse the means and ends

all of a sudden everything becomes self justifying I'll get so before we take off. I want to ask Aside from your book, where you were talking about the creation of good citizens and the creation of people who believe in the alignment, what are the worthy three to five other books that you, have people read to educate themselves. good citizen to understand these values properly interesting question. little wherever put aside the entire shapiro move. Now you know you didn't fit into this matter of maybe banana not once every eye, so Tom saw conflict. The visions friedrich highlights the fatal concede not believing at its best book, but I do think is most accessible book that gets at all the stuff, I would not say the road to serfdom. Ah dash. What else I mean, I'm a big believer in history. I, like the you know, Deirdre Mccloskey was a big influence me on all these books and I liked her books, but I'm not sure they get to the core of raising good citizens, whatever the best

Atrophy of george Washington is, I think, would be pretty useful and then, as a follow up to that Ripper geysers book on George Washington's guide to manners and stability, as I think that that stuff is really really important and again you know this. This is more of a gotcha question than the trump stuff I think bootlaces raf yeah no, and it's just off the top of your head, and then you spend the next three weeks with that sweetest value. I think I should have said this sessions of that it's a fairly good radio. I say it with others. I said: there's a book. I really love that almost no one has ever heard of those just reminded of today cause his son thanked me for mentioning it on twitter. This morning, arthur eaker called the decline of american liberalism. It's pretty largely forgotten, but it's a great three about how charting sort of how liberalism went from meaning possible. Her bosom in america to meaning sort of collectivism, and I think it's kind of a useful thing and it's pretty digestible but I I reserve the right to come up with a whole new list of books when I think about it, but the good news is you're on twitter, so we can definitely find a baron and yellow tweeted out when you think of it. Okay,

question for his offer that that's for the people who listen to the shell improbably beauvoir fourteen and up, but will you apparent? Obviously, how do you bring up here, it's to appreciate these values They were, how do we have you actually convey these values to just markets when I grew up a lot of it was religiously based who was the idea of responsibility and your responsible for your own actions and values and have consequences, but how, what measures would you take in? Do you take in raising your own kids to believe in this way? Yeah? So you know this is a tough one for me, because you know I'm I'm fully cognizant of my own shortfalls, in my own, my own hypocrisy on some of these things and I think any parent one piece of advice I would give her parents all parents is hypocrisy, is for eliminating illuminating some of your shortcomings, or so your idea and how you are failing to live up to them, but if you're biggest concern is being a hypocrite as apparent you're, a crappy parent, because I shall be very clear about this, My decision tree went awry in my youth

I have. I have made mistakes. I've woken up in hotels, covered with blood that wasn't my own. There are all sorts of things that I would not. You know that I have no problem whatsoever being a hypocrite about saying, don't do as I did do, as I say, reich as a part of it, and is working some lessons about your life and trying to like our buildings, inhalation, yelling, as we just heard, while we have doing we'd better back in the stone age. That right embedded, knowledge is a hugely important thing right trial. Here. As you do important thing My general advice for parents, you know for the end of the book. You know, as we are talking about before this guy kind of snakes back in the book, and I think that I, whatever your views on, organise religion are an end or but then nation or faith you are. There is some. truly wonderful and important that comes with the concept of being god, fearing in the sense that, if you, if you truly believe in god, is watching you right, it's a sort of a hallmark, hard thing. But it's good character is what you do

no one else is watching and if, if you have it in your mind that you know, god is watching what you're doing it and when other people aren't. I think that is a great got check for four kids. It's something I did my daughter to act as if you know somebody, but there is one What you're doing and owners, as are people would say the rest is commentary, but also and you know just as a note, the. Portance of understanding that no conservatism rightly understood and liberalism rightly understood- should see politics as a very small slice of your life? if and so one of the things I struggle with, is you know my kid comes home, I'm sure this happens with you or it's gone at your kids are going to make it, but there's also some really dumb crap, you know about, and so like one day my daughter came back having just cover woodrow, Wilson and

In your house yeah, no, it was like he wrote an entire book about how the guy kind of a fascist I started. I started to turn green and the buttons started popping off my you know it was like and and I try not to sort of make my politics for burden at school, but at the same time I believe that just try to dinner, say: hey look is defined. I career my life, but it's the important stuff is stuff we do as a family and stuff we do with dogs stuff. You know that kind of stuff, and I think that is an important thing. oh much. So many of the problems we have in our life are that not only is wife's style being politicize, but our politics, lifestyle eyes it is simply a it is. It is, is almost a fashion choice deeply, meaningful fashion choice to people, but how you vote, how you think about politics, the words and I hate of

crap and I hated on the right and I hit on left. The important stuff in life is about faith, family friends, experiences. Know you should live a life. One of the things I try to impress on her is that, without going too deep in the weeds of death but that, at the end of your life, you wanna eulogy not resume and that's the stuff

I try to teacher or Jonah Goldberg. It really is an amazing pleasure to have you on the show stopping by and everybody should go out and purchase a copy of suicide of the west or five and give them to at least one gop. At least one copy. Don't just borrowed from a friend buy it the suicide last year to go by thanks much for stopping by the Ben Shapiro show sunday special is produced by Jonathan hay, executive producer, Jeremy, boring associate producers, mathis, glover and Austin Stevens edited by alex zingaro audio is mixed by mike carmina, hair and makeup is by just what all their title credits by cynthia and angola the Ben shapiro show sunday special is a daily wire forward. Publishing production copyright we're publishing twenty eighteen.