People's think that what I do is I read novels about children. Now I dont read novels what humans. Was begin as children and my model was: I want to write I was as if they were biographies under game is one of the biggest inspection stories of all time Hugo Nebula awards? Those are two of the most prestigious cipher literature award. It spawned a giant franchise of books, nineteen of them soon to be twenty. Well as graphic novels, even a Hollywood blockbuster to this day, it still red and cherished by millions of readers. Thirty, five years after its release this week, we're gonna change gears with Dick kind of gas. As many of you know, I'm a huge siphoned into bookworm, so we're talking with Orson Scott Car, one, the biggest names in the genre generous gain story starts. Humanity's attempt to prevent the next great or with foreign invaders. I have government agencies, retrial, geniuses and then train them as the ultimate soldiers aside from the foreign invaders being aliens it doesn't seem all that improbable Scots work is often set where he can imagine the technology and politics of the future. These days,

Cyprus has been invaded by radical left ideology, writers, focusing on Social Justice Street credit rather than stories about the human condition, but sky, continues to challenges, readers and himself for the massive body of work telling where is not just inside by magic, can see even religious section in Shakespeare annotations. In our conversation Gus. Why many cipher writers are entering new genres? What road Scots entire novel as a narrative response to Stephen Kings, pet cemetery, why the force is the worst part of star wars and attacks from critics on the themes of Ender's game. Thanks welcome Orson Scott Cards today's Sunday special. If you want to hear the bonus material behind the pay. Well, you need to go over to daily wire dot com. Slashed subscribe and become a member there's. Can we all sorts of good stuff over there go check it out right now, Orson Scott Card. Welcome to the bench approach us on a special, my pleasure, so

Why don't we start with the safest, Andre itself so most of the books that you ve written or in the survey genre? Why do you choose to write in that genre? So much you wanted, What version of the long version d You reason I started. Writing safe. I was the back when I was starting to try to write to make money to try to pay off the debts of the theatre company. I had started because I was a theatre guy. I thought the only thing I could write it might make money. Would besides, action, because with you not, I tried to sell mainstream fix you, the new Yorker or women's fiction, to read books, I was gonna run up against the top writers in those fields of science fiction. You can't make very much money writing short fixed So all the short fiction writers that get introduced through the magazines I knew that they quickly move to writing novels, for which they can actually from which they can make a living. So I figured the competence, It's always removing itself in the science,

field, I'd rather not science fiction than I thought. I could write it I was almost right Ah, I was closer with the first few things I rode, but then I wrote one than I thought. Sure fire winter I thought of the years before, and it was short story version and understanding and even then it still to a couple of years before it found its way into print but tat the ever since then, that's the place where my fiction has been welcome. I've written some things that are definitely not genre and no one cares, because what the bookstore wants is something that they can put in the same section with those books online that if I thought and so it works better. If I work with a natural it's not a science fiction fettered say are probably written were fantasy and science fiction, but that's where the field has gone most of the science fiction writers from my early years already fantasy. Now my George Martin, he was the

this new writer the year, I think right before me. The camel word for personal rights And so George is obviously moved over the fantasy in a big way and is still a great so so do supremacy, but that doesn't do as well as gave a thrones, but then nothing else does Actually I was going to ask how you distinguish science fiction from fancy. I know this is sort of a rich and I'm going to bed in the Sci Fi Fantasy world is where does admiration lies the disks? and I had read the midmost and to me is that in the world the fantasy I there is an element in serious that doesn't exist as much in the world of science fiction where everything is supposed to be explainable. Reason, but what what's your take on that? as closer that one than the usual languages that sign. Fiction, is stuff that has not happened but is possible and fast is stuff that doesn't happen and isn't actually possible. But we can imagine

I end up almost works, except for this, It is considered science fiction. If you do things like faster than I travel or tundra- and those can't happen time travel, especially because this you causality is unbreakable. Are you can't move back to cause which caused you search it, sir, arguable, either way practical definition right away. I have written sums, inspection stories I said, the master analogue under the new age or gender Campbell had passed away during the time that my manuscripts males and die And so the new editor red couple addressed the things it The stories it now or in my book the Worthing saga and I know they were fiction, but what I got back was a letter saying at all publishers, science fiction- and these are obviously fantasy, and I thought why why

and then I remembered looking at bookstore. I, though, the books in the book stroking it covers nebulous, here's the difference and it's the one that act, really functions in the real world. The covers a fantasy books have trees the covers? A science fiction books have sheet metal with rivets, and so its rivets versus trees and If your story is not astraddle with with rivets its sights and if it needs trees to to be effective, then its fantasy So when you are creating one of your books, did you start with the characters are to start with the platter? Do you start with what sort of the world what usually comes to you? First national usual anything, how do you it's not just the exercise I do with my writing students. I call it a thousand is it an hour? and I just sit there and ask them questions and they come up with random answers and answers will trigger something. It makes you got all now what about that? Their awakens are responsible.

So sometimes it's a world sometimes doodling the map and I start naming the countries, and then I started Why would it have that name? That's weird! That's done and as soon as I get too that's down, then I know I'm probably onto something because I thought- That doesn't make sense to me and if I thought a suddenly this makes sense. It means that came out of my unconscious. Does my conscious mind so Finally rational, I dont come up with nonsense. The nonsense, then, you find a way to explain it stops being nonsense and you start finding that you're in a world where a story can take but sometimes I start with a character. Sometimes I start with somebody who has a certain powers, sometimes a star. Just an idea like this and recent books are written, starting with the area Yon tired of superpowers, but about micro powers? What about powers? It barely do anything, but they do that

and the kind of power they could believe. Somebody might actually have some passing you on the street, not wearing spandex might have a power like this, The most absurd one is that there is a person who in the Senate fictional world. Who knows when someone approaches weather they haven't any or an Alley naval. And less is meaningless, absent emails until she realised that she can detect it with people that she didn't know where their so nobody can sneak up on it. Because she knows the belly button before they get get closer? having a somewhat practical use for her, but is absolute. Trivial, others. I have a girl who can people young yawn uncontrollably. And she uses it almost as a mercy killing for guy. Who are trying to ask her out on a date that she intends to refuse. Isn't she just

some years before they can get their proposition ouch and just gives and was awake as they can't stop yearning, and so it better our somebody's running away from the cops, it's really hard to run fast wavira. It really is, you know, think about and think about what happens to your vision when you ya strongly you kind of a blind for a minute, and so she ends up having no practical use in a crisis. Things like that, and those micro powers and respond to novel so far. I expect to do more because I have such fun with it now attend Now that my hero always has something it's maybe a little bit more major, then those deliberately trivial examples, but it's just fun. So I started thinking about what what micro power would be, would make for an interesting story, so I decided with one it was a person who finds things not really anything he finds

those who had originally belong to- and he can take it back to Them- he knows where they are, and so it's not that you can. You can say I lost my wherever he goes and finds it. Isn't he find something and he can bring it back, accept if it has any value people are going to assume that the reason he knows where it is going to take it too, is he stole it from him. And so he spent his trials in early childhood learning the hard way that returning things to people brands, he was a thief and get should be. Sometimes, and so is shy about it, story lost in town. It is about the idea How does it come to have a practical use to maybe help somebody save them life and you gotta have something like that. Somehow you protagonist has to be able to do something heroic I or you might as well be James Joyce.

Like I said on purpose said I you know they're. There are many rigours of change Joyce, most of them in graduate school, because you can't do that under graduates, they're, not ready, they haven't got a discipline added. Prove that their willing to put up with that amount of garbage and try to say smart things about it, and so were If you want to have no audience at all, then by all means I have a character. No one cares about because nothing, he does matters but in the case of science fiction and fantasy, you gotta have a hero. Doesn't always have to be nice theirs, that will writers who have made your career about writing. Not very nice people, and yet I mentioned George Martin and Gay with France. Is there a nice person and gave us wrongs, may be arguably one one and a half, but that's it it? Ah, everybody else does things that are just you just think. Are you insane? Are you evil? and the answer off it is both

and so but it but it still very powerful- is its very real that's the change that science fiction and fantasy of both made is you can't just throw magic on the page and make a fantasy you have to make it. Fantasy that would pass muster with a science fiction writer, because that's whose writing fantasy now is, firstly science fiction rooms and they their training in the discipline of always having to explain things, so they make sense, for there is a logic. So there are rules and saw a good fantasy will explain its magic system. In such a way that stories can arise out of it, because we know that not just anything can happen. I talked to judge and jury once poet who also information I just for many years and even in my novel, seven sandwiches, which the first of my automaker maker fantasy series- and he handed Mrs acid rain

fine, but when anything can happen, it doesn't matter what happens and that is a true statement, but what he didn't know as another fantasy reader was how carefully I had set up the rules of what can and cannot happen so that by the time you're a quarter. The book. The rules are there and there sat, I dont violate them through the next five volumes. Have that and so he didn't know how to refer, received us fool than that and how does he readers quickly school themselves, nobody gives a class and how to read fantasy you reed fantasies until you get it and the story satisfy you great and if they don't read something else nice liberty of reading and just Second, I would ask you about how detailed. You get into your outlining process in your pre writing process before even sit down to write. But first I want to go

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of magic how's the science work in this. If I need faster than light faster than light what what is my justification for it, because you know we have a grab baggage That's no science fiction, writers use back in the forties fifties in the candle era of science fiction. The writers were inventing all these things, but now we just shop from their shells and take what we need but that does involve a degree of outlining there when I have a character- and I have perhaps net I get a stern obstacle in is to overcome our goal. Then I'll think of obligatory seats, things that have to happen, and I have been set up those so they mean something so that the reader will care and so there's some planning, because it into it. I know writers who sings like screenwriters and they write up all the story. Not not actually writing the pros of the story, but no car with every important scene. The way screenwriters often do

and then they can shuffle these new cards around and placed them in different places on the wall, and you know in other say there thought is all the more. I can't do that because, if anything, I wrote for anything after chapter two- is going to be discarded. The citizens find out what's going on in chapter one, and I never know, The plan, I know, what's going to happen in chapter, wondered what of one of my little bit: characters: lights use as a little placeholder. Just to get some exposition going turns out to be really fun. One of my knots character is more interesting than my main character. I have known to elevate knots, characters and a major figure Sometimes the replace somebody who is already in the online do the same jobs. They did it to do but later Sometimes they just cause their own way, but the This is pretty flexible because

By the time, I'm nearing the end of any novel, the outcome, and is now a relic deserve to be covered with dust, it has almost nothing to do with what I ended up. Writing so ass to plan in order to get the confidence to proceed. But then I don't keep looking back at the outline. How this frustrating to editors who believe that they're supposed to receive the manuscript was promised in the outline I gave them, which is even more sketchy, and it's never happened yet that they got that nap chicken strain of seeing an example an early novel by beetroots, where it looked obvious to me that, after the vote being a cast of amazing, wonderful, characterised readers cared about. He caught up with the point of view, line where they all go into an alien spaceship together, and at that point here, just following the outline and it didn't.

Or who any of the characters representing Stephen King did understand is set of his great cast of characters and then because of his good calvinist upbringing, he felt right. Did him at the very end than after all they did. It amounted to nothing and the finger of God comes out of the sky and destroys the missile, just through the book across the room. I was sure he was a hard cover too. So that's an expensive at it, but it was just outrageous to me, because I am so not the Calvinist, and so are we Mormons ART Calvinistic, and so we believe that the human activity actually matters to God and therefore I he's not going to make it so that everything we sacrifice was Nicholas anyway, it was unsatisfying to be. I think it's unsatisfied to a lot of people that it just ends with God doing what it could have done in the first place and spared them an awful lot of trouble but

that's you know each other has to write from his own unconscious and from what feels right and true to him, and so I learned very early on that, while I receiving king and enjoy many of us so works especially irrelevance. I have no desire to write anything that he would right, because I dont like horror. And I'm not sympathetic to, and I don't read it I can avoid it and one of his best books. Pet cemetery As I was reading it, I realise how good heavens they keep pushing too busy road their little boys going to get hit by some vehicle and then daddy's going to be buried in the pet sematary. Still come back to life, it'll come back to life as a monster. So I to head the end and realise that, yes, I had nailed it. That was exactly what happened and by the way anybody who thinks. I'm committing spoilers. If you haven't read these things by Stephen King by now,

it's your own fault, and so it's not like Stephen King has secret that I was holding close to the vest, but but I decided to write my aunt Ipad Cemetery story. Words dies and horses on We, as a ghost bodies, we'll himself is still a good person that he was an that's my novelist boys, so it did so. I had cemetery. I just started mentioning I've. Sales is surely measure at cemeteries and much better book, but then again, pets. Jerry at the shelves marked as written by Stephen King and mine, hit the shelves as March marked as red Myerson, Scott Carts and without Andrew Wigan in it so diminished its chances greatly. But still there are people who told me that it's my best book, including self. But you know it's one of those things where you don't get to pick what the public wants most

you just glad to say want anything what's up for a second about them, Jane in your boss, you mentioned that it sometimes The in annual feel like there's a message, that's being put out there, that is by the way, have the exact in reaction to the stand for summer. At the first four hundred pages are pretty breathtaking, and by the time we had the end and everything just explodes, which has become a sort of de regard for role of kings, novels like glass, Tattersall novels, basically a bunch of stuff happens, and then just I really exploded. The added photo, maybe six of king, but putting aside, how do you like I've given up on it? yeah I ever every so often I go back to TAT Red another king novel, and maybe this time they won't exploded. I'm I'm wrong every single time. Every single time. Somebody everything explodes at the end is very, is very disquieting actually, but it when it comes to do so. The messages I in inner novels you sort of what the bee novel. The message forward, or do you start with the message in my and then you say, this is sort of what I want to establish Vienna novel, why don't you

any of my novels. Have anything you could call the message. There are people who think they know What it is in there always ridiculously wrong. I don't even know how they got their idea from my book and, I think know they just brought this idea with them and read what they wanted to but there are messages the sub messages that are unaware of free. Apple, ah, in science fiction. Iter require really of writing acceptable science fiction that you do not have, God be an actor in in they play. You can have people believe in God, you can actually have got be an actress long as you explain. God has a giant, computer or etc, etc. You in real satisfaction, you won't find anything as ridiculous says the force which, just strong star wars for me, because it so mystical and silly

and so while I really loved the first movie in the second movie, was pretty good, the more they get into the force, the less interested I am, and then it's like a a sort of a tableau. A milk soaked cracker other religions, and yet there are people who, for whom? become their religion, of their own baby food? And then that's good? It's better to be dissatisfied with something rather than nothing, but I realized that science fiction had character after character that have no upbringing, no family background, nothing. They came. Nothing it's just a hero is what the euro does. Not that's romantic story telling capital large. That's what you find when you're reading the middle English romances characters come out of nowhere the hero his Arthur you no later than that. If him with the stuff with the stuff

We are in Maryland and yet it was her pen. Dragon Merlin won't stop it, but now they were just contaminating stories from different different traditions in Brittany and then spreading about her see the travellers, but by and large they have no upbringing. And so I start my characters early people's think that what I do is read novels about children. Now I dont read novels what humans, but you must begin as children. And my model was? I want to read novels as if they were biographies and if their bowed, please I want to spend some time on the thing that biographies do worst, which is deal with the childhood other figure that their reporting on, because we- rare exceptions, like Winston Churchill's, letters saw home, begging his parents to come visit him or let him leave highs. Boarding school We don't have anything from children's children, famous people's childhood,

Ah, we get vague, vague information. Some remark that adulthood then said you know what a precocious brat will not distract half of it and it's hard to put together their child, but what I'm just making it up? I have a completely free hand. It says nice thing that happened when needed James Cameron arranged for me to write the normalization of the abyss. I asked for permission to do back story on later there's an he. I said: that's what I do as a novelist, so I need that in order. Not what they are. So he gave me the chance to add a couple of chapters before the beginning of the movie spread and he gave them to the actors to read. I think they never read the. Why would they all they had do we say the lines and spread and this was all wasted time stuff for them, For me, it was necessary in order to turn into a good now Jim without was the goal

He wanted. A good novel be made from his movie and there were a couple places were what I call a good novel surprised him. He was not always pay, seized ah along the way, but he eventually consented to what I did and I'm proud of the result. I think it is a good and- and in some ways better than the movie, because he didn't get to finish the movie. The way that he wanted to they ran out a budget for some of the final special, facts, and so we end up with is it looks like a fiberglass path to a rising out of the ocean, as a shimmering surface is supposed to have that there's no money! You can't do this special effects, and so you know abandoned some. Things were cut out of it than I thought were important, but he still he kept the things that were most important to me. He understood the store in the same way. I did and that's good because it was a great script that was Batman. Jim Cameron still cared about the characters in turn about store.

And so the abyss headed for me being true or film that some years later and bigger bought custard swear. You now come on it. If he cared about Titanic it would have had believable die on the Titanic as one of those two movies. It's better. If you turn the sound off, because they're gonna get to the sinking seen its magnificent. He did such a glorious tribe, of making a real? You just have to hear the things people say it. It just works better that way, the opposite movie, twister, which should show, was treated in Hollywood as if it were a practised devised by our studio executive. We need a tornado movie, but the writers made it better than it needed to be debated wonderful without when you can turn up. Asked the visual and listen to the audio and get a great movie because they die what is so good in the ensemble acting so good. So you know you can make

both movies succeeded, but the titanic was a monster hit and well maybe I just don't care about dialogue. Body out asked about need development, vendors, getting mention that a start off the short story had been in your head for a really long time, where the idea Therefore, under his game come from, and then how did you move from a short Rachel, a novel, because that's that's a pretty massive increase in size and scope to get to that in the answer that just one second, first, when you're at work, You don't think about your ip department that much, but they are protecting your online safety and security will now you're not at work no working from home. If you're working at all, this means you need to protect yourself. The best way to do this expressive Vps, it's the best online protection possible. I ve been talking about expressly p I show for a long time. You should understand why encrypting or network data is so important. Let me remind you, hackers are out there looking for your data plus there, is peace that actually sell your data to the highest bidder. You might be thinking security threats or affect you personally, but not using expressly beyond that. Be like leaving your front door unlocked every time you go out. Nothing might happen for years born

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oh brother and his son soon to be fiance, and now wife gave me two books with the word foundation on the cover by Isaac off. One was our foundation and the other one was second foundation. They logically assumed that that was the first and second volume of citizens trilogy. But now is the first and third volume because of reasons that are clear when you read, but I read foundation and was blown away. It was the best science fiction. I'd ever read, I've been reading, Andrea Norton and Robert headlines juveniles, and this one took me up another love as it did a lot of science fiction readers when it first him out of the magazines in the fifties, and after I was reading I want to be able to write something like that. I want to be right science fiction. I wanna try doing that, and so I thought what idea will my elder brother was on leave from the military and was about to be stationed at four tonnes and salt Lake very close to our home in autumn?

and he had come home from basic training and from on candid school. Full stop is about good things and bad things about the way that people were trained, and so I thought Would you train people for war in space. Then I remembered, but by Nord hasnt hall- and I wish I could remember the title, but it's about Americans who join D love Hiatus Cotonou in France during World WAR, one Ah and one of the things that really stood after he was there these new training pilots were warned the way that most pilots died was that they didn't know to look in three dimensions: only turn their heads like this and they wouldn't see cuz the enemy was going to kill. Me was going to come out of the sun, he's going to come from up above and behind you going to come from below. Ah, you have to have a three dimensional said: Psmith Otto Kitsch how'd. You

train people to think three dimensional, gentility. In my mind, the battle closed space. In which there is zero gravity, and you try to move against likewise war, gaping enemies Flash used so that we are here to record and there can be no arguing, and, of course, the walls around it were there. So you didn't people, in treaties as they drift off into space. Are you dont have to have anybody going out shagging flying means, and so what we do AIM idea was a great idea, but I didn't know how to turn it. How is that are now? What do you do with them off the diary? with a training ground us as the basis for an hour, or so I sat on that one for years. I have worked on it a bit inventing new staff. Thank you things about it all. I was on my mission in Brazil. I wanna came home

Maybe I'm still mentally working on it now and then But then, when I got that letter from Mars from Ben telling needed and long publishes, science John and I was sending fantasy as there were treason, and I thought, okay, I know us ice idea, it's this battle room and so I started writing it with no real plan on, except that I have decided that the soldiers who were being traded, children, because children are still young enough, that they can really absorb the re orientation, a three dimensional space in a way that adults just too many bad habits, and so starting with children? Ah, nine ten eleven prepare ready. I came up with a short story version and understand, but then, when it was time to write an all, but it is, as I have sought to tour books, new start up fantasy. Besides fiction line at that time,

There were no restarted. Everybody knew that it would sail them talk dirty. Who is the publishers? He knew how to make it work and wondered is he did. Was he got a book from me calls that that we, recalling speaker for the dead, but it dawned on me, the speaker for the dead wood work. Only if Andrew Wigan from that short story was the protagonist. But then I somehow explain how we got from one to the other. So I asked him: how was it may be? in and I in my time I need to do, Oliver should understand first hand. He said sure same terms as speaker for the dead. I said absolutely, on a handshake. We did it. I went home and

Here's the thing that I had already learned from taking a short story called Michael Songbird and turning it into a novel song master. You don't have the short story, be the first chapter of your book. In fact, you leave the book so that the climax of the short story is the climax of the book. You just go back earlier and you provide a better a different of Richard, deeper up to that time, acts which is what interests me is still leads to the same climax, except that after the climate there's a long chapter, to see what happens tender afterward and it's the reason why he becomes the speaker for the debt and on seems to work pretty well, both novels one he doesn't nebulous, so at least at the time certain people approved in at least slightly more than one fifth of each voting. And they will still work

an then and so that technique of taking a short story internally novel by starting earlier. It's now kind of my hallmark. I've done it with other. I'm Nobel as Novelette insured stories, and it's the only way to go. I've watched the results from other people take her prize winning shorts, we haven't be chapter one, and usually the stuff I think I'm after is just bit- has suffers for bad sequel eyes the story really ended where they ended. In the first place, there is you were right. That was the ending I leave it to the end and that's what I told myself so. But you know what the things you asked me earlier about my message: One of the most important ones for me was this There was no religion in science fiction. The characters put your God couldn't be a character, but lies. There is no such thing as a human being without a religion,

I've learned this with many atheists over the years. I've learned it. I learned that at that time Notre Dame with with Good Catholic, dried students along with me, who nevertheless didn't act as if their religion mattered, but I found that if you keep questioning pins and start casting doubt on things, that day did not believe could be doubted. You find people's religion because they get angry. You find the thing that they believe that they don't realize might not be believed by other people. By intelligent people, and so everybody has religion. Everybody has the believes that they don't realize they believe, because that is how things are. They think and assumes you question those things theirs. A panic, little, a little censored of assault on their basic core nature, so once I understood that every

He has a religion. I decided why don't I have my characters openly have religions that had to be mindset usually art and even when they are its necessarily the version of my religion that I believe it If I were jewish and I were, let's say, conservative and I made somebody hasidic where I meet somebody reform not necessarily be following my belief set yet I would know something about the culture, at least what it is that I do that makes them both and so you know, if you are going to create a calculated, who has an existing religion? You have responsibility to make a plausible, so speaker for the dead. I needed a Catholics hundred Ah brazilian, but in Brazil you find that only a certain not,

tiny, but a majority of the population is believing practicing Catholic. A lot of people who are normally catholic are following night now. Can I remember the name right but converse? What comes it comes to mind, but it's one were african gods, have been assigned the names of saints it's essentially the african religion in disguise, as Catholicism. The priests are aware of it, there's nothing I can do about it so they just let those people from taking the union with the district Catholics. But Brazil policy takes pride in being the world's largest catch. The country is not all that catholic accepted discarding is founded with the idea of Catholicism at its core. If you come to this, I want to live you care about Catholicism, you're, a believer in practice. So I had no one asked about Catholicism. Do not make idiotic mistakes are. Fortunately

Erica, we're to generic religions. If you need a hierarchical religion, do use Catholic. If you need need a congregation of religion. You use generic protestant, but really activist. And that is what works So you can have stories were somebody's a minister the same minister. You know not catholic hassle somebody's, a priest so the robes, IRAN or whatever. Then you know you got catholic every now, and then you not with the bishops, wife, you have the the Anglican, idea. So so it varies but those religions are available and we all have some experience in by watching movies, jewish, not so much. I would feel a great deal of trepidation, making a character of my jewish, especially orthodox, because, I've known enough Orthodox an to know how rigorous the demands are, what has to be kept in your head all the time, and I do that

as a woman. You know, I know all of our rules by hard. I don't even have to think about them anymore, but when I watched somebody's fictional treatment of warm it. Isn't I just? No one ever gets right. No one even comes close, very famous rock musicians work I join go to novel that have Mormons said he wanted wanna, be read it to maybe get a code for the coverage. I started reading my within the first two chapters. I thought none of this. Could possibly happen. This is the way Mormonism ever ever ever works, and so my best friend what was your silence because you couldn't revised? oh yeah, really now it was too late, but TAT getting somebody else's religion. Wrong is a terrible for Papa, but showing characters who have a religion that they take seriously is, I think, really good and useful thing

The degree and tighter has tried to do that. Saint, maybe and another books have people who believers in religion. The trouble is when she wants us to take a religion seriously? She makes it more of mere Christian, Kennedy, then of any particular denomination. Fine, I'm gonna see us lose its influence to bear. It also strikes, the relation of its demands. The relations that are prospering right now in America are the high demand, religions or Jews are not shrinking. Reform is the main line Chris, the churches, Lutheran Presbyterianism, We are on what can I say, losing member shedding members, but the high demand prowess religions, the ones that actually expected of them by rules, though are growing and so You know it's just one of those things that are when you believe to religious culture. That expects you to behave in sir,

ways in order to be a full such member. It changes your life, it focuses your life and at saw in I've. I've tried using more medicine. But then I know no matter what I do. It's gonna make Mormons mad and I need to be able to go home from time to time the family, so so it's just easier for me to use other people's religion, the one time did you see my own? Religion was not lost two times: LUG novelist voice and historic collection called vulgar. Two french and in both of those that are more He just hate them. I refuse to write about wondered. Why could be read about a good one that good, while all the things you hate or stuff, that I actually, It's me you hate, but everywhere that That's what my minor messages. People have religion and fish, writer who retreats for that is cheating himself in his readers? So what? Let's stop for a second about your, your experiences in the industry.

Because obviously you are religious. You are also politically conservative. You written before about how to present you, President Obama Was- exactly where you stand on President Trump per se, but in the the obviously has been a long time blacklist in Hollywood, for people who are a conservative, I am well aware of it. I wrote an entire book about the the blacklist in his heavy industry, the business partner, Jeremy Boring ran friends of aid, which was the underground Hollywood organization for conservative, so how it has your career been affected. Obviously, No that you're at one point I asked pretty we pretty publicly to do Some comic books for DC and then thanks to the outrage mob, that was cancelled. That was no big deal. Money was pathetic, but it was just fine and I was collaborating with a very good writer and we were gonna have good artist. So you know: that's fine blacklist only work when people are afraid, because the blacklist you, I am blacklisted or not

in Hollywood, but in fact, are theirs Einstein harping sniping. Ah, there's no forgiveness: ever Even when you already said a few issues mood I lost. Let's move on didn't want to move on I've once they have a stick to beat you with the beatings, continue but in Hollywood it makes the difference. I was never gonna make a career there anyway, I'm already too. I was already to all day. Young writers. And I didn't like the idea that I had other people who had the right to give me notes and make me follow them, because I only a couple of times but good notes from smart people. There are smart people in Hollywood, they're good people in Hollywood, they just don't have the power to green light of film because you get to that place in a Hollywood bureaucracy by avoiding trouble.

By not sticking your neck out and then you're, given authority in power Is there a running in terror? They are we'll all afraid that they'll be like MIKE over and find out when they leave their job there. Nobody they see to exist and that's the most frightening thing in the world today, so nobody's going to stick neck out for me and I don't care I make so much more money from books than anybody makes They would screenwriter. That sounds awful, but if you re out to make a living, screenwriters can make money just by getting hired for a job and understood never gets used so you can write your brains out for an entire career and never had a movie produced or if it is produced, the bears no resemblance to the script. You wrote why, when I want That is what I told my writing. Students, if you want to have to write a movie. Do what

I did with Rosemary baby what tire single did with with love story. I they sat around their spirits. Nothing. Happen, nobody was interested, so they Milton S short novels and they are short normal screenplays make really another. Not a novel and became monster, best sellers and then when they were, to Hollywood and Hollywood. Well, I shouldn't Hollywood gave them. They said. There's this script. If you shoot the script, then you have a chance of getting the rights, but if you don't shoot my script, you're not getting the rights And I said: that's how you sell screenplay is right: the novel make it haven't, sell a billion and then you are in the cap at sea, but most people can't do that. Don't do that. And do you not only Jackie rolling in living memory has had the power-

the nautilus to insist that she gets the final say on cast had scripts than etc, and even then her power is limited. Only she decides to know that ten, others everything she just could not affect because they were the requirements fulfil. But TAT S. I'm not troubled by what's happened in film them television land to my work. We do tv series put on by me why you television, but then add a management. Engine series was dropped. Even always getting really good responses. It's one of those Where is it didn't? Go? in their garden, they are not interested and so you know those things happen, but I once had tv series that was going through pilot the I who was the shall run or to me. Basically, he had made it a band, and this is what came back to me. My lawyer, parsimony says: well Ass, God, here's a good news there,

take your script to pilot, so it has a chance to. To go on air, but you're fired They don't want you to show up on said, and I just laughed at you. I was wasn't heartbroken because I didn't count on anything ah no matter how real looks it's not real until see it on the screen? and so they really can't hurt me by depriving me over the Hollywood career that I dont actually want Now somebody really wants to make something. It then sites for it and makes it happened, bread, but now in this climate, they don't sensor you for what is in the script. Sensor. You for your life and. I was already rubbing resistance before I ever made any political statements just because I am a member of the church of Jesus,

the latter day, saints and say so serve the mission for the morbid church. He gave me fluency and portuguese, which has been useful, but it is not a prudential. Did anybody is impressed within the world of literature either I run it people who assume even within the morbid church who assume that in order to become a writer I must have lost my faith, you know so I ve got letters. This your books saints gave me a pitcher of Joseph Smith. Believable. So real, so wonderful have increased. My belief in him well Did you leave the church going? What I haven't left the church but they assume that is just as it taken for granted in our culture that, if you're an intellectual and

if you make a living doing intellectual stuff, you can't possibly be a believer because, if you're an educated person, you must have left behind long ago, but that's not true. I am a very well educated person and die in all only brought me closer to my face by rational means, as well as I felt spirituality,. So the second I want to ask you about the man went inside away from outside interesting things and tour a very specific brand of politics, which is pretty obvious? Anybody who follows the suffice on reporting early? If you look at, did the books they actually end up with reviews in the New York Times and in the Wall Street Journal gets that in just one second, first, let's talk about how unpredictable life is. A great life is unbreakable bad, this happened like four months ago, Bernie Sanders was the presumptive nominee and the unemployment rate. Numerical is three point. Five percent because, like zebra

This is why you need insurance insurances. Why insurance exists policy genius is the insurance market place you need is a huge demand for life in. Right now, if you're looking to get life insurance, here's how they can help policy genius will compare quotes from the top life insurance companies all in one place. It take just a few minutes to compare quotes from the top yours and find the best price, but doesn't just save a lot of legwork. You could say fifteen hundred bucks or more a year by using power easiest, compare life insurance policies. Once you apply, the policy genius team will handle the paperwork and red tape for free there, in contact with life insurance companies, every step of the way, monitoring developments, helping customers navigate every step cross life insurance off here, too lest right now, if you're one of the many people looking to buy life insurance right now, but you're not sure where to start policy genius tat com is the place policy. Genius will find you. The best rate handle the process completely. Get your life insurance, auto insurance, disability entrance, get all the insurance you need to protect against the vicissitudes of life policy. Genius tat come so, let's stop for a second about.

What what feels increasingly like the decline of the Sci Fi Genre, as it has taken over by social justice warriors. So I'm a big fan. So, if I added ringside by literally all my life, the Good NEWS I find novel comes out and the first to get it I'm a fairly. I read in the January at this point having read maybe a thousand different books, but it seems like everything gets review now. I is something that is. Rooted. Fundamentally not an interesting plotter. Interesting premises are interesting world, but in a brand of politics that is radical, and so, if you write a character who is transgender? That is much more important than actually writing a story that is worth reading or if you write in entire book that is rooted in a specific type of gender, politics in which men are evil and women are good, then that is likely to receive review from the times, even if it does actually have anything particularly interesting to say what what do you make of the attempt to take over? This I find genre honor. I fancy by the political left is pretty obvious that that's happening

yeah? It is science fiction is more vulnerable to it, because science fiction is in some is culturally irrelevant now you can find solve any mainstream books that you size how things almost every thriller: Actually, science fiction: you dont, have to write in science fiction to write science fiction. You can write all kinds of things, not hurt Vonnegut, did the kind of semi already riding along with a plan safety in all of his work denying he was a science fiction. Writer and refusing to added labelled with the genre under cover of the books That was finally paved the way for a lot of people, but right now, if you want, right science fiction- you can just write a mainstream thriller, or sign up or pretty much anything you want to write and a lot of the people you David Foster Wallace definitely was writing a lot of stuff. It had to be classed as cypher, or would have been a ninety ninety justice? Also so,

and then look at my gratitude simply is bad bad bad Science fiction, but she use science fiction motifs in all the ignorance of her arrogance. I mean I've met her personally, therefore, my detestation far beyond what I would do for them very reasons. She's right back inspection, but it gets taken soon seriously by the literary mainstream because it's not published as science fiction. In a way you you know I watched this began. I watched him with people like who were simply writing a conscience, but their conscience was ill informed and when I complained about it and reviews I was pounced on, unbelievably so, usually reviewers gonna ass, their just riding their opinion. While I was savaged for right- the review that was negative about a hate all in all men are evil. All men want women to string with pain when they have sex with a story from

I think, in the eighties, might have been the night, and so I was prepared for the fact that those taking over I walked out of the science fiction, writers, America without a scene, usually you're supposed to write it flaming letter to one of the science fiction, writers, America, applications, that's? The tradition all I did was stopping. Do you know that works really well and it doesn't the scene, but I haven't been a member of that community for a long time, because When you look in science fiction in the bookstore, how the few bookstores we had left you'll find that most of the books in the science fiction fancy area, Fantasy and fantasy is not getting taken over because that's what, science fiction, writers who were set up, went and that's where George Who may very well be hold discussions. This- is where your beliefs, I have no idea. We ve, never had a discussion about that, but you won't find them. His very realistic, socially and even historically,

not a made up history I in his surname thrones books because he's writing about people who were not politically correct. They didn't have any idea like that. He's writing about barbarians, and so rights them ass barbarians, and does it honestly and nobody complains about it, and so I need You know J K rolling. Now she pretence the double doors gay, but that's crap, that came after the fact. There is not a single hint anywhere books that she had any such idea, it's just after the fact, trying to explain yourself to already friend and she should realise that her career would have been impossible if she'd been listening to them before She just wrote historian double doors, just a guy at his sexual. It does not matter in the books. She proved that buddy she wrote it. She wrote it wrote him. Well

and the aftermath stuff is just garbage. We just don't need it, but that's what happens? Is people try to justify themselves that they will be called this or that ugly name, but we're coming to a point, where those ugly names are losing power radically when every wiper from the American knows that their labelled as racist means why keep trying, because no matter what you do, you're gonna be labelled with white privilege and racism, So you know we we raised our kids east to the necessary. Precisely so explicitly we talk about. We had lived Utah we lived in parts of California and we want kids to grow up in a place where are they? actually meet black people at school. And we found out that south been in Vienna was not that place, because the segregation was almost total just by neighborhoods. But when we vote,

two Greensborough our first visit there when I was applying for job. It's time we went to a near downtown restaurant and two waiters approaches. One white one The high places high on your white waited for the evening in this is said his name your black waiter. For evening, then they both broke up last seen, because they Know- is ridiculous. We're both serving on his back server one. The waiter and but they just thought it was hilarious and we realized you going to be Donalds in Greensborough, North Carolina, black and white people. I'm in together sit down together, eat lunch together there on the job together and Eve no greensborough is famous, has a town were segregation was challenged at the wolverstone counter. Nevertheless, in the south, black people and white people talk to each other, sometimes they yelling, but they can get along. They know each other, they live cheek by jowl and so well there

he'll race prejudice here, let's not pretend that there is not we find it in Greensborough. Our kids grew up and having black friends and white friends and was all we could ask for was that they got that multiracial. View, but now blackens your being taught that all why people are privileged, which is just not true and that all white people, which is also not true, but I know now that all my people are getting more and more nervous that no matter what they say, it's going to be turned on and used to call him the ugly, nay, races, is pretty much the ugliest name that we have in our vocabulary. Right now, if you're looking for your turrets list of words that you should not speak worse, that will work.

And the effort is now way by law analysed compared, took as we hear all the time compared to racist wow. That's had said and so you know where we live in in Troublous times, but I you I'm not a concern and I'm really not. I am nineteen, seventy six, Daniel Patrick Moynihan, liberal and I have not had to change any of my fundamental ideas since then, but so how believing the same starts has turn me into a conservative So when I was writing my call him for a while get letters from people say. Why don't you come republican? Why are you still register? As a Democrat, I said Republicans don't neither with the thing I believe if I became a reply can it somehow ginger prominence, though I would just fine out on on Fox. That's. What's Hannity,

we label? These are right, our applicant in name only because I believe in very liberal immigration laws and I believe in gun, control and all kinds of other. I don't like the death penalty at all. As long as it's administer by humans, going to end up executing innocent people and so I had my beliefs adjust square with the right now rightly, Entrusted the shibboleth of conservatism. Now So those are not things that I would have thought of his conservative in the nineteen sixty two are. The conservative party is moved to some weird radical position. That includes issues that I think are just. Why should this be a barrier to become the republic- and why should you have to believe these mutually exclusive things that both parties have those and both parties are very mean to their people, who looked toward the middle of the road.

You know every time someone says says something bad about Mitt Romney. I think you had a Republican who ran We can one in Massachusetts and govern successfully. How did you do that by getting along with Democrats Massachusetts, that's the only way you can do it so far Are they surprised moderate policies and positions. Why did they treat as if you know where some horrible birth defect that disqualified him for high office because while Mitt Romney was never my candidate, mostly because he adopted the Euro be mean to immigrants, thing which is not, my feelings Nevertheless, ah he was a better candidate, the man who became president or was re elected as president, and so

You know, I just don't understand the Republican Party, the big tent position is available to them and they aren't taking it. There's their narrowing, predicting which just guarantees and eventual democratic victory. If nodded. Twenty twenty then, the next time around, because Other Democrats are even more rigidly savagely against anybody who take moderate line. For some reason they are the default party of an awful lot of people in America and Republicans art, and so, if they're, both being restrictive, Democrats win, but the Republicans could could become the big tat party. They none tromp instead, and that's that's where I am afraid that in twenty sixteen I felt

parties had nominated the worst candidate, they had ever nominated in the history of the party, but it turned out that I could live with tromp better than I could live with an obvious criminal and light and it said her, and so I voted for Trump. You know I had a friend who had asked hashtag on Twitter that hold no vote Trump and that's the category I was. I was certainly not and never trouble, and I have admired the fact that, even though I hate a lot of the promises, he may he's actually kept them than any other politician. I've ever seen in american history. Trump has kept promises and you have to give a guy credit for that, because Democrats elect candidates who make promises,

The Democrats are counting on them to keep Clinton run as a moderate, but his is voters his party assume that he wouldn't keep those promises that he governed from the left and what she did for the first few years until Newt Gingrich gave him a lovely wake up call. With his contract with America and Obama. Kirsty left most said, turn the: U S, Senate, who was elected but hope and change sounded open and all embracing instead of rigid left wing policies, which is where he went, and so you know, as long as the Democrats are willing to pretend to be middle of the road and Republicans are not willing to nominate a candidate who actually is middle of the road. We're in trouble. I want to ask you about your

book recommendations and will be in and tv? So obviously, your and hardly lovers in all of this for your favorite sigh fi authors in worrisome, your favorite syphon movies, tv series mill, here's used the problem. I I'm an old man that I've never had a memory for lists. I can't go through list like I could watch through my book shelves in point them out and say this. What this would? This one: but I also don't read science fiction now I know science fiction too. Well, in the seventies and eighties, I reviewed every short story published and I burned out so now, I'm three pages into a science fiction. Novel to doing one of these is doing that such a mistake. Has you get a carpet for it now. So you know I'd just not him but I dont understand how mysteries work yet I mean I do and superficial level. I can read good. Trees, so you know anew I've, Connally comes out or where a new radically, These are all.

There's a new writers whose names I will not be able to bring the vine that I'm really enjoying the new gray man novel comes out. It's fine. No, not the greatest riding in the world, I really want right now there s a horrible mistake. Her first person present tense whenever east, following the main character, the greener, and you say why. Why does he have to adopt that asinine thing from creative writing programmes, universities, but that's you know, he's free to do whatever wants, but its working, pretty wealth is most of its in third person, past tense, like a real american and so there you don't there. Wonderful writers in industry, Sir draft. Instead, I am deeply disappointed. I am also thrilled that she's not allowing it to continue her series. Now that was a good will. She wrote and- and I also read a few mainstream thanks, but I also read nonfiction right, I'm listening on an audible to were

one of the great book seriously. Fortunately, the great books, great courses, then the great courses people have made available on audible, So I'm listening to and it's pretty current with the science on now great moments, your great turning points in evolution, which is really well done and is actually taught me stuff that did with my constant reading in the field. I still didn't know about, and so you know good job then, but I'm also reading a book on walking, now what's on Kindle so not listening to it and etc, etc. My constantly listening to a naughty about this year, for that I haven't mightier for this discussion is my normal position in life, because have my ear little audible player. On a lanyard around my neck. It's also a full smartphone. It see you knew her. Adam Telephone, which is my argue with rigour, my animal

how reader- and I always have this left ear. Near founded it has so grossly. Shopping driving whatever I've got a book going. So I read so much more now because of that sort of more expensive. But I'm fine, you know they they offer a decent price, so you know you asked to recommend movies. I am I just before coming up here I was flipping around channels and do what I always do if there's a one of the great movies. My love, I stop on it and start recording it middle days whatever and watch it to the end, so I'm in the middle of die hard right now, one thousand nine hundred and eighty eight, I believe, and that still great movie, so many imitations, including its old, pathetic signals, but the original is fine. Just like right. The original rocky is a wonderful, independent chill. Ah, We like sequels came later and that's fine. It will enjoy them. I'm happy

They made a lot of money. You know I felt like stop. One of the producers of that was a friend of mine, I'm in the later years of his life and work, is beyond Andrews, came back before us you took over, and you know why I think it can be proud of his work on rocky sequels I'd, never watch one of them. So I have no opinion, except that I never watched, which is their choice, but greatest movie. My greatest my list of greatest movies. Are you got me a shop around the corner, the original date? You can watch them both back to back and are still wonderful, love actually he's just not that into you. What is it something? Love? Oh it's I am. I think the thing is called about time we didn't give whatever his name is done now. Then so you know again. If I, if I had a list of movies up, I haven't

my website at hatrack dot com, but its way out of date. There have been some good movies instead, darkest hour was the best film treatment of church live ever seen Usually they just have somebody do a voice, imitation and say a couple lines from the famous speeches, but we have to know the Churchill was a pompous, ass and a brilliant officer. Then, he had lots and lots of power, ideas and he made them happen and All of them were good, which meant that history, we should have good ideas compared to other people in any of the other governments during the war was ridiculously high. But of course he had all the failures and failures that weren't his failures that were blamed on in August, our they did a brilliant job of making it.

Seem like a real person to help soothe a cast one of our finest living actress in the part- and you know he is just he's an actor who could never do a part badly, even if it's in a dumb movie he's good. How is it called the one where they were extracted from the beach at don't hurt was called enter? I can't remember anyway, it was. It was so bad I just hated because what they did was they took any anecdote that fit description. Fiction of film teachers, film, rasping, writing teachers. Ah, what they were told makes a good movie and they put all those together with just a handful of characters and made, to my mind, an incredibly boring and sensitively unreal. The treatment of dunkard. It was as bad as saving private Ryan. Now, William Golden gave a brilliant critique of saving private Ryan.

Whites, even by the rules of of screen writing it was crap, but it was said about a and well made. There were great scenes in it. They cast Tom Hanks, which is like passing Tom Cruise, it's something that is never a mistake, and you know people complain about Tom Cruise cuz he's small and he keeps getting cast as big men. I'm sorry on the screen Tom Cruise is always ten feet tall and that's fact about the actor. Ah, he has is owed so many Oscars that went to other people because they had to quote led rule and port. I think of rain man. You know Dustin Hoffman found one thing to do just tat, doing it with every line, but the movie depended on Tom Cruise, paying a sympathetic character who stood in place of the audience and learned what he needed to learn. He was the character who transformed he,

was the character who changed and actors in the academy are just university at the voters are actors and they never understand what good acting. Is they always give sentimental responses, and so it went to Dustin Hoffman instead of going to Tom Cruise who carried that movie on his shoulders, and so that kind of thing happens as you can see, I'm kind of an opinionated guy. These are the kinds of opinions that we're getting in trouble if I'm mattered and Hollywood, but I dont, and so I have the freedom to say whenever a I like Other tv shows that my wife, my watch together, some recent ones were enjoying the rocky. I think it's the best work what's his name, the actor whose Nathan fully see, I'm so bad with names, and so you know we love. That's, got terrific ready and I'm just catching up now on me seriously

Chicago PD should now whatever travel fire and so on, because I didn't realize they were done by the same people who produced law and order. And so I'm getting the same fix. I used to get from them good writing, good, acting powerful stories, The episode is always about the episode not about the soap opera, between the characters that stuff goes on and it helps add to the interest, but it never takes over. That's what killed moonlighting years ago when it was the best thing on tv in by their third season. It was not good. Even the writers have lost their way completely and that you are from the tunein and there was no story to carry you except the soap opera, and I didn't care about the SOAP Opera party So you know, writers can kill their own series lost, was killed by its writers, but that's okay. They lost was begun by writers who had no idea except an executive. It said airplane get. The strap the silent where raw weird things happen,

was it you know it so they had moved things happen and work, and maybe in specified some of them, but they were never able to make it I'll come together and they ended with not even a whimper. They ended with a wine and and- and yet at least ended, and so will you know when we had our ear of about three We're lost was all he could talk about and then no one had anything to say about it because they stopped here. So when you look movies and he looked for television almost always the thing that makes something have lasting. That is the right and everybody in Hollywood knows that they know that if you dont have a script, you ve got nothing. No amount of directing can compensate for that script. I know it. They say it constantly, but they still treat writers like little bags of dirt there, and that's the only daughter put a seed in about five at once hopes grow,

as soon as they can get the fruit of the thing that grew, then they just kick that bag of dirt out away, because Somehow, directors, Scots Supreme Power start there on Broadway, it's not a wind theatre. The writer is everything the director serves at his pleasure, but even in Hollywood writers are treated like nothing and theirs What is writers lives? are filled with the agony and frustration of watching bad movies get made from their best work. Ah and solar, so many battles, people people say Arthur somebody bad movies, and the answer is because decision which may be to make are made by you have no idea what a good movie is. You have no idea what a movie be from reading the script plus they don't read the script. They hire some flunkey to do it and then the Flunkey tells them about it or rights coverage on it and they may

those decisions based on that plus the filmography of the people attached and they here. If you got the same guy who is involved the exorcist, then it's got to be a great hit, even though it's not doesn't have anything to do with anything that media justice to it. Nevertheless, they think that that magic will they work and it doesn't it never does so we're in a world where era no one knows what's good no one knows what will work when its published, but everybody thinks they now, including me, but I'm no better. Picking winners than anybody else. I'll, be movies that I absolutely adore missed. What's your name lives for a day pedigree dismissed his petty grimace, petty, grew, less ready. I adore That movie, I couldn't understand. Why was dumped in January the most

where will slot friendly to be released? And it was completely ignored and ask your time? The performances were absolutely right. Yet the writing was sharp and wonderful than ironic and sweet and yet disappeared. So I can call it I have no idea and other movies that I think well. This, like I could see this movie on the way into the seer. I didn't really I think, was coming from this particular theater in the in the complex but yep. This is the one that gave the order to the whole spice and it goes ahead, wins an Oscar. So what can I do? I'm a my opinion on things, I find it fascinating butter I can't think that anybody else would suggest. Whence gardener. Can we talking about western imperialism western cruelty? There's some folks unwept critics who suggested endurance game is rife with these sort of thematic humbly ask that coming up, if you want to hear his answers, had on opening daily wired icon and hit that subscribe, button become member, so be shorter

out Orson Scott Cards work. All that it really is great enters game, of course, is a classic should go check it out. Scott thanks so much for stopping by my pleasure, then Shapiro show Sunday. Special is directed by make joiner and produced by math. Is global executive producer, Jeremy Boring associate producer case Winterton. Our guests are book. I Caitlin made her host action is supervised by Alex's, Angora, editing, is by Jim nickel. Audio is by my comments here and make up, Nigger Geneva hydrographic somebody, Cynthia, Angola, Piero. Show something special is a daily wire production, copyright daily way or twenty twenty.