Hello, everybody. This is bert, chrysler and you're. Listening to my blog to build one today, the way I'm on tour. I dont know when this drops, but I am on tour just suffice to say I have added toward its well, in the two thousand and twenty two anna and I am hitting everywhere, go to burp or bert dot com, I'm sure hall is throwing up my toward its right now and their scrolling pagoda purport outcomes. make smells a here. I think mac piston here smells like piss, you just pissed. I smell piss worm sitting. I wouldn't be shocked if Matt fuckin max I smell piss in here that it might be my feet to check to see if you peddled little bit me, you know you don't smell your own piss? Well, if it's true depends on what you ve been eating this week, I have not made the worst fucking gut. Promo just add one of them, whitney's june. Shine we drink these on the podcast

prickly, pear margarita. It's actually really fuckin good. I don't have much Oh bullshit, I smell piss man, one of my feet it's this is Whitney's check these out the really enjoyable drink, I'm with my guest. Amanda knox Amanda knox is no. She was on rogan, but where's. That's obscure shoes. I thank you for not bringing up the highly publicized murder accusation. Against me first and mentioning that you might have seen her on rogan, you might have seen on rogan magazine or on whitney. Oh yeah, also there's a documentary on her netflix. I dunno what that's about? Look man is someone I followed she's wrongly accused murder in italy, and I think two thousand seven and And I followed the case nothin. Then I never thought of the opportunity to talk to her. I hope it's an ok interview,

you know I'm not the best at interviewing. So clearly I fucking I I shouldn't say that now you guys are going to like. I don't even want. Listen, it's a good interview. We both cried at at some at one point and we laughed which I am a big fear in this interview, was that I was like I'm not the fucking money serious guy in the world. An m not very serious. At times told some really riveting stories about that. I had never heard or tell about her conservation about her freedom about acquittal, about her trial that, and I'm someone who's listen to a lot of men and knocks oddly enough, but it's a great great rate interview. I really thoroughly enjoyed it and and like I said, if you haven't heard her on end Russia is also I witnessed by gas, and she was also ngos by guessed the progress, Debbie Joe, was fucking. Awesome really was also and it is a reason I subscribe to her podcast called labyrinth with her husband

with robinson check it out, I'm analysing the one with Cheryl, Heine, johannes from tallahassee and show on there and I think the pod gases, mostly about when people feel lost and then I feel like they're gonna, get out of being lost, but This was a great interview. There was a great interview and a very fascinating person to talk to them. and a very strong person. Leanne always talks about people Oprah jean and can you get get through adversity. and come out on the other side, and this is a woman who has done exactly that and she is blossoming on the other side right now and I'm very happy to see that so hope you enjoy. The podcast ladies lays down without further ado, my friend, I guess I can my friend now we just spent two and a half hours together my what, with my wife play with a baby, my friend Amanda knox

you can do it every one there's this progress is not very formal. We started off. we started already, and this is how informal this podcast thank you. not you not on camera, the other two letter by good call d. Get your kids on camera, I fucked up, oh yeah. Oh my god see I didn't I didn't know. I was gonna, get hey June shine cheers to whitney cummings This is what she said. A box of this new hard computer. It's gorgeous like whitney has a horse on it. Can I tell you what's critic cures? Territory was crazy. Is I'm having stomach problems today to like, like

just bloating issues, and I think this is gonna fix it. I love that taste. Nobody like that cases again. Well, when he says it tastes like her, so that makes boy had fantasised about that thank you for being here- thank you for having me follow jerk. I followed everything when, in real time whenever it started happening. Oh and it was ugly yeah, and then I saw your documentary rogan you were. We were on rogen and I saw the documentary I saw the documentary when it came out. Twenty sixteen I came up with twenty was like because also we just got a new documentary in which water is I've already seen this bomb. It's funny. I have a really bad sense of them, of retention of information of numb not really good at it,

What makes me a good story, teller, but I'm not really good at like like little like facts of things, Even like all I've known about that stuff. I still my it's mind to me that you are only in italy for like two months before they should happen. yeah. I was in peruse fur five or six weeks I do. I wasn't aware that it was perugia and perusers between florence and rome, yes and I've driven through perugia before you have. I did yeah a driving from florence or from rome to florence. What time of year travel so much I have, and this is once again I think it's it's why a hard time with details, there's another either. I shouldn't realist. or done with detail. I really I couldn t have been to ITALY a lot nor who still? How do you feel about ITALY?

ah complicated right. I mean I definitely like I understand the culture a lot better now, I'm in that was one of my downfall, of that at the beginning was not understanding gender dynamics, they're, not understanding yet there is there is so much I didn't understand about the culture gone there when I was fourteen with my family and I had gone and had the sort of romantic under the tuscan, sign experience of my family, where we just eight really good food and went to the colosseum, ended the tourist evenings later moment, stepfather with my whole entire, extended family. We all. I got into vans and drove from germany to ITALY. When I was fourteen and did like a tour numbers, your sisters were hold my son, stir. So I was fourteen, so Deanna was twelve or thirteen yeah yeah but I remember I went through like we went up.

pay and I had studied latin in middle school, and I was walking around and I learned about on pay, and so I felt like I was the tour guide and public anyway was like this beautiful romantic like tourists, the experience and I thought oh, my gosh, I want to go back. I learned the language. Didn't really learn language, but I tried to learn. Language went back and had a very, very different experience as a young woman and in the way that I his treated there, but that doesn't say that it is not a great place that I dont want. Like I When I go back and I met relationships, people have actually been back sense. Everything did you know that did not. I know new knew. I remember when you came over here and by the way, my memory of things noise, shady but remember when you came over here and you are still found guilty and then and and they were trying to extradite, you are do remember following that, and then you were found innocent and I was- and I remember there was a time where they're like the-

you go back you're like there's no way and go about back people. People said it was in in prison for four years, but there was that for years of, but you know potentially facing extradition. I was a really really difficult time for me as well, because I couldn't really exist in the world as a normal person, nice I wanted to plant routes, I wanted to go to school. I want to do that then get a job. Do the things that people do but I was also having tat had meetings with lawyers and talk to them about potential, turning myself in here in the u s and hoping that they would. Let me serve my sentence here if I had to serve a sentence, the thing that the thing that the regional connected with it me a very similar thing, and I, as someone said this on somewhere, but I am the poorest and then, if I got charged with murder I would behave in a way that would make me look very guilty to anyone. I've always felt guilty when I didn't do anything I this

guess. I'm crazy, but like my buddy Blair had had three hundred talks in his arm in here. His cab cat, like, software when we were in college and he came out in his came in union- through my software or have you know like no was acquired, I got some missing three hundred dollars and I was like and he wasn't a key, but we he was even really accusing me of it right. He was asking yeah like it I'll pay. By the way you enter my socks or other. That's a very specific. I ask I behaved guilty who have won You do not have a deadline, behave guilty, but I just I behave guilty, like I remember I've, member, like

one like one like. I wonder where soccer is like. I don't even know where soccer is looking at it one day and is like what you don't know. It's like a massage or like, of course like I, when, when all this happened to you, I went out immediately. I was like. I don't believe I don't. I didn't believe. Sex games gone wrong. I didn't believe that Did you and I was like I'm a complete, much assess people pretty easily like and also the thought that chick doesn't party like that someone that chick looks like an end. And by the way I was also I grandeur, time in my life. I knew that There are certain things they say where you go on, that doesn't. doesn't robbed me right. I'll. Give you another example, mrs horrible, that that these two things with the dew grape case oh yeah when they said that those guys raped her. I want that didn't happen and I told the I saw I was- and we had. please come over. The fire power dynamic is very different than what their suggesting entrance.

of the power dynamic. It always is the strippers control and control, and there are too many guys there are. Too many guys with level heads, I must end women- don't get raped at these things. I'm gonna get a shirt off and of living rooms where no one else is watching at a bears. A power power dynamic that And shady shit happens, but when I saw that I said that didn't happen, and I just I just know that doesn't didn't happen, the antique well, it seems like they're guilty. I go, I dunno, sudden seem like me, and the same thing happens with you when I saw that come down I was just like us. No man, chicks, don't kill her friends, they just don't That doesn't has not real and no guy can convince you. there's no such thing, I just everything seemed off for me and so on, but but I have that that, like us as you I'm sure you must have looked back and said. It was innocent. I didn't mean I've. Just I was in the arms of the guy was dating. I was nervous, I'm scared picturing like what

they shouldn't incriminate me yeah- and I like something- That's interesting. I remember Malcolm Gladwell wrote in his book about how that's right out- oh yeah, that's where you heard it so he brought up this interesting. Point, which is that you know. Maybe there are some people in the world who have the sort of beef had habit of acting guilty even when their innocent- and he also made the point that there are some people out there who are amazed, khan men because they are guilty, people who totally act innocent, no one would ever think of andrew. I did actually talked him, often gladwell after his like after he wrote a chapter, and I was like so I dont totally agree with your with what you have to say. In the end, the reason is yes, that, though the idea that he sir presented was there is a certain kind of person who can be wrongly convicted and that per kind of person is an innocent person who acts guilty. and the fact of the matter is that anyone

and be wrongly convicted, you don't have to be a kind of person who acts guilty and especially when it sitter that like if, if a detective or if a prosecutor has tunnel vision what that means, as they have motivated reasoning, in, what their seeing so they're, going to only notice things in a guilty light its likes. You know, seeing something too rosy glasses, because you're in love everything looks beautiful. Everything is wonderful. That person does well it's the same thing: with prosecutors are detectives who have just decided like. I have a gut feeling. About you and now everything that you do to me looks, guilty, no matter what it is that you're doing so you cry it's because you crocodile tears. If you don't cry it's because you have no emotions whatsoever, and so I think that's what the assertive keeping that the when we think about wrongful convictions, its port inter, like think well sure they save their acting weird. But first of all, who am I

to put myself that, like I'm, not actually put it myself in their shoes and to what does acting guilty. Even mean what does it mean at what point. At what point did you start thinking to yourself at what point you think things what wrong for you. it could have been in hindsight good. There been a different way to call known one one: Why didn't know how to call nine one one in italy, it's not nine one one. Right so I had to go. Get my boyfriend Raffaele at the time to help me deal with that, and I think I mean I feel like. I didn't, really have a chance at all, really from the gatt go I think, maybe, as soon as the the tv cameras started, rolling

which was immediately basically like we were out. We are still outside of our house. Like a new, crime scene and there are already cameras across the street rolling, and I feel like that was when the police felt like they were under pressure to prove. Warm and when they decided that they needed to find a guilty party immediately rule and from that point on that meant that they were no longer searching just pay on evidence. They were searching based on, got feelings and like ultimately, what happened is. The evidence did eventually led them. The real killer, someone who did act guilty by running away, like this one. This was the guy Rudy already get answers. Rudy. This is another thing I dont think I ever really read my had run route you guys met rudy. Let me start from the beginning. Suddenly Rudy had come down here,

hung out at your house a couple times right, so really good day was a local. Ah, he played basketball liked it sort of pick up basketball with em in the local, like basketball court, that was in front of the euro. City and that was really near by my house. So the guys that lived in the apart, went downstairs from us. Often would play basketball with him like pickup games, Those were like two law students right. So no though so the two last that you're thinking of all the other two roommates that I had besides merit at those are two italian women o o. but those reduce. I must account- oh yeah yeah. So we lived on the top floor of a house and then the bottom floor. There lived for guys and they were all just doing their thing. Ah me was a separate apartment situation, but we would occur I got to dinner together or like go out to a club together. I guess you know how sold dynamics, but they would go and play basketball have pickup games with whoever was there

including rudy giddy, and occasionally those people would come over to their house and one time rudy get a came to their house and they invited us downstairs and that's when we met rudy giddy but rooted quote obama mistaken yoga it's on you, that's what they say. I didn't. I didn't know that, apparently, after we went and like hung out with them for a few minutes, they were they serve. After while me and Meredith just went back upstairs was time to go to bed and afterwards it was when they were talking about us and joy, Come on. One of the guys downstairs had a crush on meredith, so I'm sure they brought back up and then maybe we could get a said something about me. LISA. Those said when I as on trial, but no one ever told me that at anyone actually I his name until I was already arrested, rule and and- and you in and you, but you you got there like september eight october september, so I got to europe in september and I spent time with my family in germany and then

and your family family in germany yeah I'm actually going to be going to germany in a few weeks to visit my aunt really, I love germany yeah. I love, even their four october massa loved. No, so my fifth if his next year, my wife said one wanted something big and are for our best friend is turning fifty a week before, she wants to do. She was to ride bikes through this without and yet we currently you right so funny. I talk to I talked to Kate, hudson overheads and thereby sons and daughters of Golly han and caresses, and I said what was one of the finest things you ever did his kids and they were like mountain biking through this was alps like it was the funniest thing, you'd go you'd mountain bike, you'd go, have sit down, drink, eat lunch and then you'd, combine for another hour and then go have dinner, eat and drink, and so

the thing that manassa go was. If I want to take my trip on to that, I will cut. take the girls, germany and my daughter, georgia, missis dent, talking about every year. your new born here. My daughter, georgia, was to go to italy It will probably take study abroad or just visit just she wants for graduation. She wanted me her and her sister and her mom to go to ITALY. on time. You, oh yeah. I started thinking to myself. You know its prey the vulnerability that happens when you have a child when, when you dont want them too, to fail ever you don't want them to have hardships. You clearly I want them to be wrongly accused for a martyr and spend. I was at ten years fighting for the here in this house. I don't want them to be murdered. want them to be murdered, but you but there is certain things that. I'm sure you must see that your life has changed

in a way they eat that you do hardships, make you a better person mean getting georgia's. find the colleges and I I I really wanted directly. I wanted her to go when we re, I took her there and and you're like out, you're afraid what if she doesn't get in, but that's not good in the college makes you a better person. You you need to fail, you need a hardships and in it socks to watch them have hardships its, Sucks so much is just mountaineer at the very beginning of this road and and I'm so curious, like I was wondering what's what One thing about all demanded that you did is kind of dead that you go, I that that didn't make it through the

like old amanda when in high school. She like like that, didn't make it through the prison stint yeah. Now that's a really good question. We didn't make it. One of the things I found interesting is that you said you had. It only had sex with you pick out the number of reported on one hand by the way, I can go to hands, but I'm really close to one and so but until I lost my virginity. I was going to be very sexually active, like I was on a path to be like I'm just gonna bag is many checks as possible and then status First experience was so vulnerable for me and so imprinting of like who Genuinely was that at that is changing. forever, and I I the next guerrilla dated, which is a long term girlfriend I didn't, have sex with in this sector I didn't I just was like I don't

I'm not ready to do it again, and I mean very few boys. so the I'm not ready to do it again and I've only been with ground. I would like six women, because, because of that first, I'm experience. Can I ask? Is that too much to pry into backs? I'm actually really curious about that. Irish. Was it was. It was someone that you were in love with what it was someone who knows she knows it's her, but it was someone that I was that was out of my leg I thought was out of my leg and I would say I was in love with. I don't if I knew was in love with, but I was definitely very, very very attractive to It's like if, member correctly, I think, she's in Hong kong, queen or some It's like okay, she's, a your order them to understand and dumb, and it it was

is that of the mass. It was a mess it not. It did not go off the way I thought I was gonna go off, I was very very clumsy. I did nothing about it and then what really affected me was the day after, in the proceedings, and, after was being afraid of she got pregnant or being afraid that I got it. Relays, you're, ok, so it wasn't. Like you had this deep emotional connection, it was just not the sort of I'm a go get, like I know what I'm doing kind of experience or form. Therefore I thought it could be very very franchising like you know, go in you. Do it with this person that was really cool, I'm going to go on to the next person, but what I realized is why I only won

It is the people that I absolutely love and I want- and I trust- and I Don'T- and I don't like I I need to be like this- is us from it. I mean I remember the like three days after I lost my virginity, maybe maybe a week I was going to go, dinner with her. I really hope she never hears us. Don't have the time, I'm an open book. I that's my life. My flaw but good. What have I don't mind to tell the truth about things I her her family to take me to have dinner and They can't she came the door to get me and I ran to the bath mr throwing up violently. Have I just I to this. That was just like all in your living like she was perfectly nice to you and everything else,

awesome. I just was ike as like. I was a mess. I was a mess. What is this one of the things I want to win No, I followed your story when I heard your stories that they painted was the sex deeming it. I wasn't I, but but you are at a point we were like hey, I'm gonna. So my out, while I'm here, I'm gonna make up another couple. Boyfriends on, I have fun and I, like that is, like that's gone, a that's gone Yeah! That's back again, that's gone! There's no telling language does seattle. I go right back in the saddle, lou ones it yeah now, not at all. You know that is actually a very true I've. I think that when I went there I have this feeling like even

and more so than going to college for the first time I was like I am on my own. I am an independent woman and I am taking care myself and do in my independent woman, virtual emotion, yeah, and it didn't work out. The fact that- and I didn't know that that's that's one of the things that may be would have turned it around is if I had known to ask for help. I didn't know that could or should ask for I didn't know that I needed help in those first few days after you know, we discovered that my room had been murdered and Prior to my arrest, like there are four days there where I was being interrogated for hours and hours and hours and hours, and I was being told that it was because I was an important witness that I was close to meredith that I lived in the house. I had discovered the crime scene, so I had to be there at the beck and call them

police for hours and hours and hours on end ass, answering like same questions over and over and over again, and I had this feeling of like I feel like their mad at me, or am I just like me, language, not good enough, and that's why they keep add skimming the same questions over again. What's going on here and my aunt, whose in germany was like. Maybe you should talk to the american embassy and my mom. Calling name was like. Maybe I should come over there and help you and I kept thinking, but do you know I'm I'm ok, I'm hanging out with Raffaele he's letting me stay at his apartment until we figure everything out I've I feel like I died. Like a little kidney more. I can find my a new apartment and in everything- and it did not occur to me that was actually like strapped to the train tracks, and I was just looking the other direction. While the train was hit me, and I just didn't know and other people around, like even people who were bows.

of miles away were like something's, not right, and indeed the day my mom arrived in. Italy was the day they arrested me. Everyone knows about my weight loss journey. Sometimes you build trapped and you don't know which are good food. which are bad foods and it just create unnecessary dilemmas. Numerous to change how we see food with the psychology of based approach that looks at what, we, but also how you eat. Instead of making you feel guilty regret noon. Powers you to keep going, runs chick, Is our bunch of iran. His chick lost fifty fuck in pounds on new. He swears by when we So we were betting, the door, a million dollars couldn't seventy five pounds, Enron was like. I got his answer its new. This is, That's great, you don't need you, dont need rules, lose weight, thus need the knowledge and wisdom to empower you to build smarter, more sustainable habits. That is exactly what I'm doing right now. Move cognitive debates, baby approach helps you

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how soon until the man or two you reach out. You're paranoid. You ve all the damned like us something bad happened while I call my mom before even knew something bad happened like Call my mom a so what I did. What happened that morning the morning of november second, actually today is the anniversary of her death. I came home to take a shower and get changed into new clothes, so I could go off for a week end with Raffaele to this town called gobio. and I came home and found the door wide open, which was odd and no one here and so I, like sort of called like as anyone home. Ok, no one locked the door behind he took a shower, but then note things were off. There was like hoop left in the other. Waylaid there is, they will just things were off, and so I went back to rough alien, house, and I told him that and then we when we came back together, I called my mom.

I was like mom utterly know. What's up like, I have a weird feeling at something's wrong, I dont know what it is and she was just like talked raffaele talked here, inmates, like figure out what's going on, I called her in the middle of the night. I didn't even think about it and leah. My first thought was talk to my mom talked to Raffaele and talked to my mom, because my roommates weren't answering their, alfonse, some cheese is now what about your other to remain the law student said they get did did get interrogated. They got class and but not as much as me and their law student, and they spoke language? Yes and you think today the day to you and go. Did they stand? for you, or so they did not point to me. And even the day I was arrested like right before that I was interrogated phenomena. One of my roommates called me up and was talking to me about getting another apartment together so like. We were all on on good terms, trying to figure out the situation,

together up until I was arrested, and then once I was arrested, they did not stand up. For me so on. This is actually something that is being studied by some students in new york at John jay university, others, student who's, calling it the filipino effect after my roommate. Which is that someone who you trust in europe during good terms with as as they're accused. Suddenly you change your opinion about them. so everything you say up to that point is like oh yeah, we're they're, totally cool not suspicious at all, and then they get accused, and then they changed their perspective, which, if you make, if you think about it, actually kind of makes a lot of sense. Like oh you're hanging out with people, things totally finer than someone tells you owe that person rape, someone you're like. Oh, maybe I have a whole new perspective who that and is even though I never would have thought about that about that person before

and say that then that rap rape accusation is wrong and then her, like, oh shit night, is thought all these horrible things about somebody who totally didn't deserve it, and also I never thought about that about that person before anyway, anyway, so It's the other, is very common and cancel culture. Yet as you I know you, you here's something horrible about someone. I know you re barbecue accusation, it's happened number times in the colony circles and you just see How many people just are flocking away just goin to distance themselves now and then and you know it was interesting- is that I think intercultural piles on and people start getting mad. If you don't, talk to them and if you do reach out to them, people get man. So it's just a weird fucking time, but that yeah and cancel. Culture is really bad because it's not like the criminal justice, some where there are rules, they are there there is no rules. There's no like there's no way to determine what counts,

Is this evidence, or not? It's all just sort of based on feeling and how one acts in the aftermath of being accused, which is really you're staying on my work disappears. I'm just going to say I killed her cause. I'm I'm going to behave so much like I killed her like I, I planned it goes missing, I'm just like digging I like what are you doing? I was like you, you want me to run at you. I know you want me to have done it and let you just just kill me I've. I I definitely I am. I couldn't Couldn't do it. You did, I think about it. A lot I couldn't do you did a good lenny you couldn't- I wouldn't be where you are today had up in me. Are you don't know that no embrasure. I'm pretty sure I got excellently locked into a sullen alcatraz and had an open, a guy I live. I would have a panic as well. I do not do well with being enclosed spaces, I mean I don't

elevators dont, like handcuffs alike, real problem with wrongful accusations. I it sends me when you can't stand up for yourself in someone accuse you something and you can't. and up for yourself and you just it spread like wildfire because it and sends me through the roof- and I I just a just learned to never to look at anything. You know a like one at one time, one guy this time, fucking, probably fifteen years ago now, by ten years ago, here you just an alcoholic that gets on stage tells the same stories over and over again and by the way I don't write down like other obviously have for fucking. Specials clearly I write about he's referring to the fact

I tell the machine story, which is fascinating, that I admit that I dont know any of the istanbul. Well, I am, I am imagine I don't know the right where I am it's for all. Like almost the same path you took, except I got away with it. If that makes sense, I didn't murder anybody, but I robbed a train. You, dear yeah, yeah, What's so robs a train, did I hear you think when you travel abroad in all crazy things, king, I was when I was in college, I went to russia. broad oak hand. At the time the russian mafia ran everything. Ok And an eye became friends, and so you thought oh I'll. I became friends of them and they were cool and saint petersburg. There very light and very. Your friendly and saint petersburg partied stories

ro club, and how did you know they were mafia, not just a fun times club They were because of the way that art the wood, the way that the russia ran back then. Is it in order to stay say if you had to pay off the mafia so these are like some guys who be like here. I want some of your money and you'd be like okay and then they were like alright cool. Let's go drink most of the big organization I'd be like, and then, if you want to stay safe- and you don't people robbing you left and right to you guys from a group of americans You need someone to just be around. So if something happens like don't know, The words and so obvious, and I mean this very respectfully. I hope together, not listening, but there were very low level. Entry we'll do that, we're not scary fuckin guys they were very. I would argue very sweet, dudes and I never saw them, do anything horrific. My guys, and in the movies they would just be the ones they would get capped immediately and you'd never heard their story probable

and then and then we went to retrain and a different when the train into from overran moscow- and I met by two new gangsters on the train and they were little different, less user friendly or aggressive and weep and drinking getting paid. drunk and then robbing the train and then in any and then it will ya to Moscow. Is there an over their grovelling, the train via Larry? Right now I know everyone militias. Bert chrysler bring a man and nuts on his podcast to tell her. The machines are losing their fucking mind they're, like what was actually going to bring up fucking yeah. I like the story, jokes in it, and so so we get to moscow and and

the police are there and they're like interrogating. My class has been robbed and my teachers and everyone's upset and I get off the train and the cop comes up to me and he's like so I understand you're the machine. As my nickname and I was again he's like twenty. Are thus- and I was like alright, and so it's like that thing is why I was intrigued by your story. Initially because I got in trouble studying abroad, and I got away with it and it gave me a career and so I told my story just like you did on Joe rogan, probably ten years ago, and it became viral, and now, when I start and it started, story. I tell every time I go on stage. I told them of the show. Ok, and so it is very fascinating to see. I often Thank god there is a very, very real. I mean. I know the story is bigger than what I am it was a real experience in my life minarets and potentially very scary

and I remember distinctly the the feeling of panic this is I would never talk about this stage. Althea serves a story but the genuine fit. feeling a panic that I got walking off the train. The cup hold me over more into the carbon going. Well, I've really fucked up like I've really far enough- and and I did it by the way. I did the thing and As I got closer, the copper just remember him. He was. Business upset, as I thought he was. He was talking to the gangster there's a little lighter, and I got up to him and he just looks at me, and he goes so. I understand you're the machine and I was like, oh my god, I'm not in trouble and he's like no you're, not in trouble fuck that bitch. This is russia. Music occur, and then it was like. Oh my god, what the fuck this happen. it was really what we want the druggist. Ever been. My life also bottom. Remember, hearing thinking

I remember identifying when you hearing your story, I'm about identifying with being being abroad an end and that feeling the feeling when I thought I was going rested in russia, whereas thinking and all ready for the gulags. That's all I kept thinking yeah. No. I I've heard horror stories about russian prisons from prisoners in italy who are russian, but what's I think, it's indoors, thing for me is that it took me a long time to realise how fucked I was like, it was not even clear to me when I was being arrested that I was fact rule. because, like they didn't tell me that I was being arrested for murder. They like put thank you- saw me, unlike strictly naked into a photo of my body and all of that they did all of that, but telling me

that it was again because I was a witness and they were taking me somewhere for my own protection and that I would get to see my mom and like all of this bullshit- and they took me to prison and then I just sat in a cell for a while, and I didn't know that I was even accused of murder until I was brought before a judge and a judge them You are no you're being investigated for the murder of merits kercher. How do you plea and that is like the first that I knew understood what was happening. and even then it like, took a really really long time for me to like realized noses and just like a terrible misunderstanding. I this is. This is real I I you know it took me two years right like I did really really fully realised how fucked I wasn't. I was actually wrongly convicted until I got the guilty verdict

because those two years leading up to that, I just kept thinking, there's no way does anyone know where I touch what I kept thinking for you. I kept going someone just go over there and tell them the wrong look out. I kept thinking that like whose busby, built in the room here like what is going on and yeah. I kept thinking that It is all just a big misunderstanding and they would figure it out like they do. The evidence would come back and I figure it out and then evidence kept coming forward that they either made up or was out of nowhere on that would eventually get you know taken down by independent experts who would be like no, it's bullshit, but like in the meantime, I'm hearing things like oh yard, your dna and meredith's dna is on a knife and, unlike what the fuck are you talking about? That's impossible? What are you talking about, and they are just like that, just the way it is, and so I'm sitting there going I'm I'm in I'm alice in wonderland right now and there's nothing I can do about it and meanwhile, like in

cell and everyone's talking about me but like in the news in the media, but Why- and I can't say anything to know- they were so fucking photogenic so they say. I dont think that I am particularly photo Johanna, I'm sure there's people had been roughly accuse that I was not interested in like clearly I was interested in you because I found you attractive. I saw that picture. I went, who is that than a minute its it it's. Excuse, I literally said ass. She is beautiful and another way what the fuck and then and I was like there's no, There is no way and at what Why, in your incarceration, did they find Rudy guilty of doing this right. So one can. I took off my shoes won't. Thank you. I just wanted to get like a little work. I was a senior and I'm a I'm, a big criss cross, applesauce guy. By the way I've been saying, criss cross apple sauce. Since I had kids the other night. I was on it in an on an indian reservation telling jokes and I just naturally said crisscross applesauce number last night, when the

I turned up saying something very offensive on a fucking indian reservation. I'm so glad that mike like, when we talk about progress that my kids got me to start saying, criss cross applesauce, did you ask them how they would say it who at the in reserve low. I wasn't gonna rollback. I think it is worth considering. So rudy good day, was discovered. They found his finger prints in her blood by the way at the crime scene after they had arrested me we already do, and so they ran his prints. They found him he's he's a guy who had already been in the system he had been arrested before for having done exactly the same thing broken and entered into people's homes. even wielding a knife. He has never had raped and murdered any one. Yet

they said they found out who he was. They found out that he had skipped town that he had skipped the country actually I got a friend of his to sort of get on skype with him. At the time till I talked to him and figure out where he was and then once they found out where he was, they had the german. Police go and arrest him and extradite him back to italy, so they found him actually very very soon like, if you think about it, two weeks. Isn't it isn't long time to go with not knowing like caught the murderer into leaks. That's a really good job, except they had already accidently or not. Accidently arrested other people too, and Oh, are you and rough ella Raffaele and my boss, Patrick the member and supported yes and when they found easily patrick? The member had an alibi from the gecko, like multiple people had said that he was with them that entire night, but they are

to them. Anyway, even I recanted and kept him prison until they re able to get Rudy a day and age, a sort of swapped them out, so patrick mama was allowed to be free. Reading a day was put into prison and then he was being invest. together, the alongside sighted Raphael and me then in ITALY? What they do is they have a sort of. I guess it's their version of a grand jury trial where it's not like a trial, try with, like you know, a jury and, and you know witnesses and- and all of that is just like a judge who hears what the prosecution, what evidence they have before them. then you can decide if you want to do a fast track trial to either get a verdict, then or you can decide. Ok, the judges gonna say whether or not this merits going to trial and so what mean Raffaele dead, we did not want to forego and actual trial, which would allow us to bring experts and into here wit says, and all of that view we absence We wanted that reading a day

attorneys, however, knew that he there is so much evidence against him that there is no point going to a big jury trial and that the thing that you, the benefit you get from doing a fast track trial by just? being judged right then, and there is you got a third of your sentence cut off. it- is basically a guilty plea: it's basically a guilty play, so he did the guilty play equivalent in ITALY, while maintaining his innocence was found guilty sent. for thirty years, and we refer and me were sent on to be tried in a big trial what no one you say we can't you did you give them a false confession. I gave them. I signed false statements that they wrote for me. I was tat, was never you saying This is what happened. It was that they wrote it down and you just signed it is it's complicated. The way that it happened was again. I was

interrogated for hours and hours and hours. They brought me in that final night. It was in the middle of the night and they told me that everything that I knew was wrong. Everything I was saying to them was wrong that I had actually wit, missed something horrible and that I just didn't. Remember it because of how traumatic it was and if I didn't remember what they told what they wanted me to remember than I was going to never see my family again and here. I am thinking I must be crazy, like. Why are these we'll yelling at me. Why are they hitting me? Why are they telling me? I'm never gonna see my family again. They must be right. I must have witnessed something now I dont remember who they weren't this I apologize. This is some I said before, but they weren't like copying you. They were just good cop, bad cop in you They were being. They were being aggressive to get the vast majority of them were being aggressive me. There was one cop who was telling me hey to see. You know like I've been in a car accident before and I forgot,

breathing, I have no memories of being in the car. Accidents is probably exactly like the car accident. You probably just witnessed some things a horrible that you don't even remember it and it's not your fault. meanwhile everyone else's time, you that I'm a fucking liar and their screaming at me. So why? an happening, is they were now looking? What would a shit language to be order into? I italian such a fucking, patrick language, everything's like rhymes everything, yeah, good god where they found a text message between me and my boss, patch of the number, and that said, like we had changed text messages, the night it happened, and so they were like. Oh look, you and you are making an appointment to meet with your boss so that he could rape and murder me And so that's how that all came about ants yeah

what's really frustrating- is that all of mine interrogations up to that point had been recorded, but then very very conveniently that one interrogation was not recorded, and so it's my word against them. What happened, but meanwhile they they got what they wanted, whose so fuckin closely feeling you sucks the most for in all. This is like merits. Parents, yes, and I got her brain when I first started following this. I empathize very closely with you Listen rogan If you are great on rogan, by the way you were fantastic on job. It was just such a great interview. He was just he chose the fucking greatest. He really is the greatest I know of, but I, as I very quickly is apparent for started

kind of feeling for meredith's family going the abbot there like there's a person that was lawson. It sounds like a fun person- yeah, I mean it's. I don't know you guys hung out for only for like two months, but it seems like you guys You know you know she was really really nice. She was a very nice person, very smart on, like she had her quiet moments when she would just go read on this. Those steps, but also she would love to go, get pizza and we would go and go grocery been together when dancing together like she was really nice person, and you write like the at italian justice system had a duty to her parents, most of all, and they just made what, should have been a very simple and straightforward case into an overly complicated mass so that they never feel like they can have have closure the then never it, and I hope I don't feel like I've. I can, and I know a great deal about to trot out, inflicted closure. I felt a fact of life Rudy guy, just color

getting got out and and was like? You know he's out of it There is already out of prison deluge What can do family at all? I have not spoken directly to them. I've I've attempted various times to send them a message conveying but my desire to talk to them, but I have not pushed on the issue because I understand how complicated it is. And, at the very least, know that her dad very much felt that I was guilty and that they didn't appreciate the fact that my family pushed so hard to change the the tide that was happening in the media. It's like and the fairy like in the first months of my arrest like I was so laundered in the media. Which is the biggest drug, addled horrible horror, monster of a person and my family was told by our lawyers like don't say anything in the media. We need to keep this to the court room blah blah an eventual

My family, like we can't take us any more, the things of they're saying about amanda all wrong. We need to counter this narrative. That's like the court of the public opinion is slaughtering her there, not just making her guilty their slaughtering her. We need to stand up for her so they started standing up for me in a big way and that changed what was at that point, a less complicated narrative, just evil woman, lambert, narrative yeah, and that was something that I I know frustrated the cursor family because they felt like in the process my family. Defending me, the focus of the trial was shifting. way from their daughter and onto me and I'm in a way aid. That is true, but in another way it's like this sort of blame was put. To me like how dare you know, Amanda defend herself, basically, but what was actually the problem, was that the prosecution and the media had decided to

focus on me in the first place and I never should have been focused upon like I was I had nothing to do with this and the they never actually focused as much as much attention on the actual murderer as they should have, and so my family and I have had it. Our way like I never would have to use. I never would have been put on trial is all would have been focused on meredith, and we could have all agreed, but the fact that, like the price, The commission decided to sell a insanely, sexist told We made up story and then the media, instead of holding them accountable to the truth into the. Thence- they just latched onto that story and ran with it and scandal mongering and got so much money out of it and then, like people come to me, and say: well how? How do you feel it the fact that meredith has been forgotten like don't you feel bad about that, and I quote shore

but it's not my fault like I was never the one who made this not about meredith. That was the italian justice system in the media, so the boys, It was really crazy that, could I do I think that you right they did focus meredith was a was. It was a sidebar in this whole fucking things about how you were guilty as opposed to take up the devil? sometimes about Nicole simpson enough and the kid it was with her. goldman run goldman. How we got here is one woman. You know here gotten. He was also a human being brutally moodily brutally murdered and he was also a guy that had dreams as heartbreaking,

but you when you say you've reached out to you, just send them messages on twitter. So, and so there are a few people who have acted, who has at least claimed to have been. able to be intermediaries to send a message to them for me and when england yeah but I honestly don't know if they ve never even received a message for me. It's owed idle at one of those things as apparent. I don't think I need and I'll be like now. I am not yet I might just be like I don't need to like it's funny a lot of people reach out to let my friends our colleagues in than they want to apologize for what they ve done. You may, one of the course things ever realises I'll need accept, anyone's party you'll have to, absolute poverty. You clauses, go, I'm good monsieur horrible, but I feel horrible too, yeah yeah, it's interesting

First time I had someone who's during the nine step No one of the steps, as you gotta go make of forgiveness, whatever yeah. I didn't realize it was happening. My wife's, like honey, stop he's trying to apologize. I was like, oh It was interesting and let us- and he was reaching out here and then we're just like I don't want to deal. I don't know who he was of was like, whatever, whatever I was baltimore I hate. This is part of this thing. What in hue, and I realize oh, he sang some asset. Right is a first I really got an apology and I went on the first time in your life, where I was I grows like them. I apologize very quickly yeah and I'm always find. built on my own actions. For anyone else's, so I kind of I've never really need the frigate people I just find what I did wrong. She would be slaughtered in an interrogation room. You have no idea like I

I actually also prone to this. Like you know, if some being bad is happening. I tend to feel like it's my fault and they called vulnerable narcissism. I just learned that recently got tracks Let me or use a sort of like feel we Thirdly, shame and that like that shame is because everything is everything bad as because of you, that's all vulnerable narcissus, I had an issue, an issue with with. to individuals and I kept saying to my friends. What did I do? no, nothing exists in a vacuum like I was there also? What did I do? Yeah a guy? I want to find my accountability yasser than I can get to the end of it quicker right exactly like it. I do. My part then, were all like everyone just has to do their part ice. I totally feel you, oh, my god, Let had something it's a big deal for me and I am I found.

Wonder, though, that a lot of the time- it's not you and it's of someone projecting whatever issue it that there is better than that they have on to you, your and it's a hard thing to wrap your mind around because europe. That means your helpless, like, I think the thing and I I think the reason why I'm like I'm Honourable narcissist, in your vote. Our largest is because we want me problem solvers. I basically we just one like see that people are unhappy and be like. Oh, let me fix it for you. Is it my fault great but like? If, if the thing isn't really your fault and the thing- there that europe being accused or whatever like is not something that happened like how do you fix? It you can't among your helpless and I couldn't fix one of the things And then I and then I found a way fix, one by

allowing that person to blame me what they thought about, that I did and I knew that it wasn't real unaware. My body I like This is real, but I'm cool with it like I just need to over ok, yeah, and so so in and try irony that first apology that first, like get a apology, and I got sit back and you get to actually decide to accept this body dwight or am I am a comfortable not for giving this person there's a is asking forgiveness. It's not getting either you don't get it do you just say cause you say, I'm sorry that doesn't mean anything yeah I've gotta go. I accept that yeah I had. I had a really good friend, your friend drug me, my house one time what man Amanda you go, you should

These stories are old hat to everyone. Listen to things like lots of these specials- I guess sorry, so he he drugged me and why I dunno I I was like a seventies thing like oh, it's funny to drug people saw me and Joe and tom in this guy or reduce they used to do think also brought over every year. I saw one of them on its lead us up. There and so on. We would not drink or do drugs, for it mother october, and we do this work our challenge and cleanse clans clans. I was not a fan of it. He did not like it at all. and so he didn't have to do it. We we we, we said to him like fuck fucking, so he had to maybe get Retribution on me I don't know, I'm not really certain. I couldn't here's. The thing is, I don't know why did it, but one hundred percent but he dragged me we're gonna podcasting, he slipped molly.

My drink, yeah and yeah, is he still your friends? So that's very interesting. So why didn't speak to him? like the entire month of october, we didn't drank it into drugs. We all did october, but I speak to him and at the very end of october,. He called, and he was like he was I come. Really sorry and eyed, and I don't want this to affect our friendship and he's. I did it fuck up our friendship and I had been so used to getting a pilot is about point and decide. I said to myself: I'm amount of figured out, Yeah does I gotta know? If I can forgive you, if I can still love you so fucking loved like before that incident, there was no wavering and how much I like a trust, already and like I have a thing I have a thing about that. Sets me off that if, if people think I'm weak do it cause

They mistake, kindness for weakness, some from a very kind person? Yes, and so some people will capitalist but kindness, and then just call you weak joan oriented noticed very much about me. You hanging out with No, no, I don't want. You know, that's a broad in regime, that's about stroke of mostly of a black people. I don't know I've all maybe a guy that runs a radio station or or like another comic or you know like jump and some in the business of an executive or and so on. Told them that they knew that they knew that. That was what one of the things that drove me nazis. When people assume because I'm such a generous guy or I'm such a nice guy, that I that I'm weak and I told her- I was like that fuck the weak thing cause it made me feel like you thought I was weak and he was like oh fuck, it's like I wish I could go back. I can take that back and then I got up mainly em. My wife did not accept this apology he's. No one welcome your house. My daughter's did not accept his apology and aid.

I could see them also because, like that's like a fuckin women thing to like you, don't fuck with people's drinks like you just don't do it what he my daughters and it just it fact. Everything up, but I was, I was able, in my opinion, to forgive him You know that I'm that his friendship was very valuable to me. I love confiding in him. I love talking to him about things I that never change just one silly. I could. I could see that that was once silly act that he thought wasn't gonna bother me but like a day hmm and the comedian he's a comedian he's very, very, very good comedian and but his he runs in circles where drug each other is not big deal, I'm like a lot of the garlic. Has he done it before the other people he's done? It he's done it he's there. I think so. yeah. They all do they all these two just you know, puts daphne there's drinks in ok, it's

It is kind of the seventies thing yeah. It still is just fucking with each other, and it's not. It was never frowned upon. In that group of what had happened to me, I will just was a little too. I was different from the obvious absolute more but on the other forgiveness, is a very interesting answer. A to couple people have not forgotten who have asked for. I bought now buddy signora tops girl, said to me one time. Sometimes, if you of people to get back in your life, and you want them in your life knows I know, Can you be careful to forgive that's an interesting point, and I'm gonna be curious, like what like for me- The thing that I want to know from some and who I would want to forgive. I do want to forgive people a lot, because I also don't like feeling angry at people, but I want to. Oh that they understand why I'm upset, though I want to know that one day they approve

shit that I am upset. My have a right to be upset and they understand why, so that I can feel so again in there in their space they be like. I don't want that to happen again. I dont want to have like a report, and I want to regain trust and like that trust is having that person acknowledge my feeling. And a big knowledge. What needs to be? when from now on, so that I can trust you again. Do you feel like the person that you did forgives, was appreciably doing that for you that the others were not I was very accurate boot. What one person I kind of woman I kind of wish I had forgived, earlier- and I saw him forgiven- I may have forgotten them- I've just forgotten them, then, occupy space in my head, one person I forgave one percent for good. if got sober restyle to me, and I think, gave him and his apology wasn't even accurate that

that's the worse when they're like trying in her like that's not even why I'm mad. but I'm such a what you would call a vulnerable narcissist. Whenever that I accepted that his recollection of events. The everyone's recollection of everything's different, no one asked in an if, if that's the way here. I recall it and he wants to get paid, accessible and be forgiven Then? I just have to accept, accept it. That's where he sat, I want to tell you all these people's names, a big summit where incidence in interesting this, gases sponsored by better help online therapy. We talk a lot about better help on the show. We talk a lot about therapy in this month, we're going sk us some of the stigmas around mental health care. Is it me that there are any statements- and I say that so that you should be rest assured that of your thinking about getting help. You don't have to wait, it's too late therapy isn't something people

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say much about that, but it is important to me to feel like I don't even a whites. that important to me? I guess I felt like I was so quickly judged before anyone ever even knew who I was, and so so horribly judged like just basically, people just made up a cartoon villain and then like cast me as that character, without me, I have been having ever audition for it: and am I have this sort of lake. Fixation on the idea of proving them wrong and like just just to see what would happen Like I'm genuinely curious to know, if, like if my prosecutor understood- who I really am and not the cartoon villain that he created in his mind like what would he do like, would he would he would he chain?

What would something change? Would somebody next time not get hurt, or where is everyone going? perpetually just justify themselves into oblivion, no matter who they ve, hurt and no matter what wrong they ve done. Like that's the sort of terrorism. This is a bizarre thought than you do not have to co sign on this thing. at all how? But I as you're saying that I thought the I bet I bet they believe themselves to be right. I bet they believe themselves to be right. How powerful, their eyes. You're, a fucking savage murderer. How power will be just a shop one other kids soccer games It's not like that, but a horrible I just be like you know: still, they believe it well. What's will be more interesting to me is if so

one found themselves in a position to say: oh, that person is not who I thought they were, but I'm still right. That's more interesting and you like. How do you do that cognitive dissonance? What how? How does that cognitive dissonance happen and I think that that honestly, as a more human experience than then people will acknowledge that, like you can even have someone prove you wrong right to your face like I am not the person that you thought I was and they can still justified themselves that they were right all along. How does that happen? How those happen, because I have. Funny it's hard to change your opinion on a person's wells but even more importantly, it's hard to change your opinion about yourself. If you're the kind of person who judge some one to be a murderer,

what does it mean about yourself? If that person turns out that they're not a murderer? What does that mean about yourself, So I think the bigger issue is not so much about changing your opinion about other people. It's got changing your opinion about yourself. What kind of person are you if you wrongfully convicted someone so have you had? No one, no one's ever apologize to mean when you when they say that it would you did for years, and then they sense they kept you guilty send you home for now in italy they do double jeopardy in a different way. I'm so I was found guilty. I was acquitted, I was sent home then I was tried again. I was found guilty and then I was tried again and I was found innocent, so feeble. and twice and guilty twice. Yes, shiva guilty than acquitted, yes, How does it happen

so I am. I am at the trial level. I was found guilty at the appeals level I was found. I was acquitted and then I was in essence that that first acquitted was that for years I was for years yeah so that day that you get found acquitted as release from prison. That tell me about that day. Like so The new deal suitable yoke so it was December, so it really cold age, it's in prison. I mean yes, there aren't uniforms, you get your family gives. You gives lose you, we can wear clothes, but there's are certain you can wear like. I don't think I could wear these genes are actually could wear these genes because you'll notice that the button here doesn't have a cap over it. If you have a cap over it, you can hide drugs in the button. So you can't where those kinds of, genes, but I could where this kind of genes, so you know cloud on

submit a small amount of drugs. So so you called out, isn't december its december. It's called you have any inkling that they're gonna. Finding you and also actually I'm sorry, I'm taking you to my can be when I was found guilty, I was acquitted in october, is still called, but not ass called two years later. Yes, please, She found guilty in december, yes that most bitter after that was a very bad day. my entire family had showed up, and I have a very close extended family and all of them came to ITALY to basically take me back home. We had all been like in what my mom was calling this like dark tunnel like trying to see the light at the end of the tunnel, and we were convinced that it was gonna, be when the verdict was handed down. Like

none of us were prepared for a guilty verdict. None of us, like my dad, like we're so prepared for them to take me home that my dad brought my two youngest sisters, who were much younger than me who were like cash. You know like eleven and thirteen at the time and brought them with the understanding. This is going to be a happy moment and then it was not and it was devastating and it s. So, like my mom brought meal, my mama me a special coat. That was a green for good luck and, like she had the like guards, bring it back to me so that I could put on his coat further verdicts and. I remember that the m every time I went into the

courtroom, it was always really loud because are always journalists who are like yelling and cameras clicking and bubble boy, and this that time I walked in and it was silent. It was it felt a little bit now. In retrospect I felt like I was walking into my own funeral, like everyone was just like it felt like everyone was there to see the axe fall and and and indeed, though, when the finally, the judge and jury came back in from chambers and I remember I couldn't really understand them, not because I hadn't learned italian by then, but because I sort of had this like. echoing in my ears, I sound a little bit like what what what what what one, but I did make out cold beverly guilty. Ah my Not make out how many years I had been sentenced, I just heard that- and I heard that

after some one behind me, yelled. No, I don't know who was someone who understood italian, who understood with the judge, was saying understood that I was being found guilty and they just hand pronounced it yet they are now I heard copy of, and then I heard my family crying. I think I've actually Ask and there's this really nice young woman who act as a translator for my family cause like they didn't, have a translator. It was italian courtroom. Everyone was speaking italians, my family, most of the time that they were there didn't know what the hell was going on. But there was a young woman who was around my age who volunteered to to translate for them and I wonder if she was the one who said no, I should ask her anyway and I never

I just know that my family started crying very quickly, which is to say that someone was live, translating for them, and I I like the feeling of collapse and there it's my my world collapsed like everything I thought to be true about the world was gone. I felt like there was no floor and I was I was like floating in space, not knowing which I was up and in fact, like the guards had to like sort of physically carry me out there like they held me on both the arms and like carried me out of this room, because I had just been told that, like the truth didn't matter, my innocence didn't matter

that I was not just like someone who was waiting to go home with my family. I was like don at this. Was my life like this? Wasn't just like this weird little interlude. It was my life and like I, it was over and my one of my lawyers chased me out of the court roman, he was like a man, we're gonna fix us, we're gonna fix us, and I was just like how like, if the truth doesn't matter like how do you fix this, so like. I was the one hand I like. I feel you in though, just being like whatever you. oh you see it your way. I see it my way.

You're, sorry for what you think happened, that's fine and that's good enough, and but sometimes it's not good enough and and granted like I was acquitted. Eventually I got to go home eventually, I got to start a family. Eventually I got to like have my life back, my life was not over and but I don't know if the people who did who are responsible for it like understand what they did, and it would mean a lot to me if they understood and and and what's crazy is like you can do something that wearable and not know that you're doing it, like you, don't happen to me like I am

ruining the life of an innocent girl right now, good for me, like you, can think you're doing the right thing, the entire time and still be doing the wrong thing, and so that is like that complicated and cognitive dissonance space that I'm talking about where it's like must it feel like. I almost feel bad for my prosecutor. I almost feel like. I should just leave him alone, because he would feel much better about himself if I just left him putting new blow well, that's kind of my feeling is it's like maybe, Maybe this is me being unkind by like reaching out to him and being like. I think we need to talk because, like ultimately, I'm actually potentially forcing him to see something about himself that he's not going to like it. It's the cute, the guy that the guy that rewarded, the duke rape, kids

now. I think about that guy. What was his name person? He was all Horrible, human being here's a horrible him being and an theirs and this must have happened. This must have happened this. What kills me tee with your case? Is there to be moments where someone was like him, just you know her dna. He's not in there, but that there are certain facts to your case, where they had they had to hopefully overlook them. Yeah, that's the hard thing like, and I keep wondering in their different people. I've talked to have different ideas about how white The mental process was for them like oh did they hear no, no dna linking amanda to this crime. today's here that and go. Oh, we maybe I'm wrong or did they think o amanda mustard?

be a criminal mastermind. She cleaned up all your dna and left does not him knife one, my think he's dead friend your google mike nightfall. This guy was a fucking garbage human being? Is he he railroaded? These guys hope he is a railroad these guys, and I saw a documentary about it and He was like he. It doesn't matter, doesn't matter this gonna get me reelected. I don't give a fuck it through their lives. This is getting to be sad that a bomb paraphrasing phrasing, rang argument, I told you I'm not going facts but is alive goes bankrupt, soup The players, yeah yeah later developments it. What did he say well said he, he actually wilfully said, I dont care I he knew they were innocent. He didn't care ere he just this was giving him momentum on a reelection correct. Is that what it is? You know that that definitely happens and I,

that that's actually really trusting, because it reminds me of like how the journalists treated my case where there are like. Oh, you know, guilty it doesn't really matter is not a good story as long as I'm getting paid, and it's like how you get like. How do we all get so stuck in our route? keen, like so jaded through our work, that we forget that there are human consequences. That's interesting. You say that much. actually say that, because it happens in every level I remember I made a very I wasn't decision on my biggest my mostly on too but to net the ever talk negative about anybody in an hour just talk shit out just touch it. just out of my ass? I just to full time- and you just be like- I can't really like fuckin mike kind of stout doesn't really bad. I would imagine you'd giggle out if you heard it at my intention

make you laugh, obviously, church. Oh no, you just get done we'd like to buy talks should have aris weathers like an like reached witherspoon a lot, but you just like you're just using an example when she got pulled over for dui and she should not have been speaking- and there were recording old thing and you just a ranting you're trying to find a joke and I never really had a line. I never really cared. If were what d? in line with what I just want to make sure it was funny. And then I started saying what I know, I want to have, like god forbid, I I talk positive about this guy. The guy was telling you to come on my podcast tomorrow, yeah the surfer yeah. I talked positively about him and then he reached out and then what's very interesting is I started The jet saying. I I want to be negative by there are negative comics and in there, but that's not who I am.

And when I went on jos pugnaciousness, just like us is a perfect example of meat, hawking shit and not realising what I'm saying I get drunk high. I dont remember any of it. Ass, a man and you just risking your life is just lying. Anything that keeps anything you can find humour in and I just made, it causes choice to not sending native an in return. I said pause, the things about a number of people who each resell me yourself, included, wanna, cafe for the kind words and fettes how much better than networking served from back shepherd like fucking going. Did I? What did I say about deck? Shepherd I, like dogs upward, but you gotta role, you like What the fuck I set about dax shepard brain. I got a shirt his podcast like just in the mail like almost like a dead horse's head, and I was like the fuck. Did I say about Doug shepherd? Well, you know what that's why weird AL is such a genius, because he's always positive he's, always funny he's a genius

This is the perfect time for mean not stocks it can achieve in the heavy work. I like we're alive separated, because I had a joke in my head and I just by my tunnel, the jokes I got was not worth it. I well. What is it because? It's easy, though, like maybe that's the track, like maybe name I don't know, I don't know whose bar I like weirdo. I like we're, not look like we're now. I like I've always liked him. I beg you very innovative, verb, brilliant, do very, very brilliant then I had sallies positive was positive or is positive. fuck him I think it is right, and I this unicorn smooth on my face, I make missus burgers tonight. How'd you celebrate birthdays in prison. You didn't tell me

Actually there was some another american it was locked up in their who, one time on my birthday, she worked in the kitchens. She was able to make me a chocolate cake. Excellent. She s young would wish Was she in prison for she had an italian boyfriend who bought her an whole new brand new set of luggage to go and visit him in italy, and he had laced her entire luggage with cocaine and on known to her, and so she showed up and italy to meet him and his family. He didn't actually exist fake name everything and she was arrested at the airport. Is she still in prison? No, no! No! She was got five years. Oh wow can keep in touch with her, really I actually saw her. She wants a day. She lives in EL. I know now am I was in seattle yesterday. I flew here this morning, where's universal organ eugene right. I yes

wait, so we need t, do she pretty I mean I've. pictures of her when she was young, she was. She was in her fiftys when I'm, and then and now she's inner sixties and she's, a beautiful woman. But you know I she was gorgeous when she was my age rule like red doc, long red, hair, yeah. so over the other prisoners likely and don't go back. I want to know about the new fund innocent romeo matter. well. No details to small. Ok said that time. All feed our wedded liquid. It first it's I'm stone jail cosette because in my book in my book, look at your peril. I understand the currency at very different. Can I see you are found guilty, then you're cool and you're allowed to go home glass and then get found guilty again and not to be disrespectful to how much that must, but I go there headache, stuff and fear, for stuff getting out of that fucking prison. For me. Yes, now getting out of that fucking prison is I go,

I want to know what that feels like. Yes, so that feeling is hard to describe to you today the end of the day so it was it like night time when I was finally called back Then they took many many hours to deliberate in chambers, ah, which was interesting because we didn't know what that meant. If that was a good sign or a bad sign. And but my lawyers, the longer it took for the chambers to come back and say we are we're ready to give a verdict. The more my attorneys were like. Maybe this is going to go well because they're not going to be taking this long to just agree with a guilty verdict like maybe there really really deliberating on with the facts that there were deliberating on was eight. Yeah. So in the appeals While there were key pieces of forensic evidence that word basically the basis of the conviction and the first trial that had been reevaluated by independent experts and called deeply into question.

Fact, totally obliterated as evidence, and so the court was then left with well. If these these pieces of evidence at the prosecutions case rested on. If those no longer there, then what is the case against her it like it. Is there any evidence against her and there wasn't no. I guess you exactly so they deliver It had for many many many hours and in those hours while they are deliberating, I wishes in prison and I was waiting. And I knew this was the day I did, not know. This was the day I mean I knew one day I was going to get a verdicts, okay, yea. I have been called in for them to say, like ok, we've heard finally The arguments from everybody were going into chambers, it's going to be several hours rate, and so you knew that today or you are you hopeful or you go you at this point going like it I can't get my hopes up so

I was got it from my first. Trial, when I felt like I have every hope in the world- and it turned out- I didn't know what an innocent verdict would rest on if the truth in matter anymore right. So I was Not theirs thinking, oh everything is going to be turning out all right. For me, I was Preparing myself for to hear the worst, because I had not prepared myself this time and it had been a very bad experience for me. So I was preparing myself to hear the worst. I went back to the prison actually was given like the choice. I can either weight in a prison cell in the court house, which was very cold and like a serve like dungeon. Sell that was very small or I could go back to the present. My roman and just like hang out-

And I decided to go back to the prison and there is a priest that worked the prison, I'm I'm an atheist, but ma am there. I was friends with the priest to work the prison we play music together and he invited me to think that those may be waived on the first. By soon except Jesus pricing yard- I mean do now. I didn't have a banana we'll play music gonna go A friend of mine and I went to his office and we, I stayed very, very long there and we just played music together and interestingly, and he was convinced that it was going to turn out ok and he was so convinced that he had had brought in against regulation a little voice recorder, I'm so that he could record me singing because he was like this is the last summer we're gonna, hear you sing and we use play music together and jam

I cried a lot and dumb and eventually he had to go. He had to go back to his. You know wherever he lives his seminary and and I had to go back up to my room and wait the final like hours into the evening, and it was on ten or eleven at night before I was finally called back into court and- and they brought me into Court- and it was so bizarre because again they they bring you into this like little dungeon cell and it's it's and it's brick, walls and like a really simple bench and that's it in the cell and then there's this like iron great, like you'd, see it like a dog kennel, and that was that

Was where I hung out while I was waiting to go into court and outside of that was like a sort of seating area for the guards and the guards at the time were all casting bets on what the verdict would be and and by the way as a storyteller? That's a fuckin. That's that's a fuckin at an oop. That is a foxy those when I those details, that's what I love! Oh, my god. The way they brought me an event, looking running their like your ghost I was a ghost or you know like they honestly were nice to me, like the guards when I was at court worry usually very I swear. I mean one guard at one point even came in to my cell and taught me how to salsa. one point that was like not that day

That day I was just sort of saying subdued, but he came into my cell and was like. Oh, this is how you salsa, I was like okay and they would like bring a little espressos or something like that like from machine anyway, they brought me up there and again like the court, comes in their very somber. The judge sure stands up there. He's reading from a piece of paper and I am- I can hear it this time- I'm not hearing that want what we want. Some I'm intently listening to what he sang my my lawyer is holding onto my hand and gripping. It really really firmly he's got like this.

I am sort of warm meaty hand and he like takes my hand and like just envelops it and am Ben. Like I hear just so. First of all, I heard called pave ole for slander. I was found guilty for slander and which is again like the for signing those statements. They found me guilty of slander and he says you're sentenced to three years for this guilty of slander thing, and so I'm thinking, oh, no, is happening. All over again is happening all over again, but then he says acquitted and will certainly do I'm a sofa. I saw them and and then and then and then the even more crazy thing was and a meat to be immediately released. So I'm just like I start ball,

like I lose it when I lose my vanity, is there I start bawling and lose it, and my family thinks that it went the wrong way because again, they can't understand italian, so they see me losing it, but thankfully bears that girl whose translating for them whose explaining to them? No, it's. Ok, it's ok, so there like hugging, each other, as I'm like whisked away very quickly, because the olives and light quiet courtroom explodes like everyone's talking like cameras, every like blah and swear whiskey the courtroom arouse passing by an I was crying and Raphael is a turn. Who is a woman failure there, Arafat we were there. We were always try at the same time rough ass? He was always there. He is on instagram, yes, yeah. You share this house's lemme salaries and he's on twitter to zero a year.

Anyway. So as in their eyes? So yes, I passing by- and she sees me like bawling- and she like says like she gives me a thumbs up, has I think, she's concerned that I didn't understand and we get taken out of the. Court room, and then we are brought back to that same room right where there's these two cells, but they don't put us back in the cells they set us in their room with them with the guard with me, we're gonna examined, or they are just like hell. We hopefully admitted. Indeed some of them were like. We want good job, mirth and men and over you. Well, they were out. They all seemed really happy for me but also they were like very, very keen on making sure that I understood what had happened because and it when they let they allowed Raffaele and me to hug.

We were not allowed to like touch each other. Much us law Give each other rules we were alike on trial, but as soon as we were acquitted, we are allowed to like hug each other. You that's me yeah. I follow you. now fallen, you and you follow Raphael, I'm guessing yes or a full quality. So so let you don't select you do here. I can find it for you. I got him. I got him see what he looks like. Wow that's on board. I thought it was very, very much more occasion that I thought, maybe you he's some yeah he's gotten me vibes, like he's, got like brown, hair and he's pale brother sister high. No, actually, I think we were more like other insisted on anything else, so sudden how quickly you let out of the jet like like. What's the what's, the time I need are you hit? New parents are born, make dinner reservations.

more like I'm. So again the france, like the shift, so I was brought to that court. Room in a prison van which is window less and bars, and I'm brought back in a police car with window and no bars and I'm brought back to the prison, and I am brought to my cell very quickly to just get my things. Like I'm out now like to be immediately released, so I go back to the prison just for enough time to get my stuff. They give me a few extra minutes to run up and down the. Thus el block to say goodbye to people, but meanwhile there, like you, have to get out you're not legally allowed to be here any more something happens. You fucking their big trouble tat. So, Meanwhile, everyone is screaming the entirely. I come back to the prison and already

Everyone has been. Watching it on tv and every on is screaming and pounding pots and pans. Against the bars happy for you. Yes, they're all swilling lee banba you better tell me or made me cry granted like we need. This is a tradition that we do for anyone who's getting out like we, we say libor the libor time we banged pots and pans, but this was the first time I had heard. Every single building he built. Like the men side. The women's lies the thing at the moment it was. It was really good. My and people like just like I've, never seen on never see them again. Likewise, many years of my life with I just I just have to say like by now and You, no good luck and meanwhile, You remember as your leaving to scrape your foot on the threshold of the of the door so that you I symbolically carry the next person out with you

So anyway, we they gave me my my passport and and and and they had arranged a car for me to drive me out and then from there I was driven out into a mad car race with paparazzi ramming our cars from behind to the darkness, to a safe house in rome that had been prepared for me with by supporters. So close price tag on all this. I do. I mean I eventually paid back my parents, what they said it all costs. I doubt that they told me everything, and I also know that a number of people gave their time for free or gave their whenever they have a free like, for instance, there is a person who worked for british airways, who gave my family all of his miles

It was a former f b. I agent who coordinated with and you know the local authorities my escape from prison. Basically, like that whole car thing situation was not unusual. What normally evans. Is they give you a garbage bag to put your stuff You walk out the door and I would have walked out into a throng of paparazzi, Instead, they organised a car for me. That was driven by a professional driver. With an f b, I like X, f b, I agent in the front seat and we booked it into the night like turned off the lights, and where is driving in pitch darkness and like the real fine, like the sling, no like sunflower fields by the prison so lightly find our way to rome while paparazzi or chasing us, and it was is a big deal. Mrs Saint wrought rough. I only got in the same things honestly, I have not asked raw how who him leaving prison was like, because

I dont know actually how he got out. He and I've seen him multiple times sense, which is ridiculous. I can't leave him. There asked him before sure they probably arrange something else for him, but he didn't. He wasn't leaving the country he was going back home to his family and that suck for him, because meanwhile, like I get at least go home to a world like to a place where there were people at the airport. With like welcome home amanda signs like but I didn't know who cared about me who showed up just to say like welcome home, like the local record store put up on their sign like welcome home amanda, like not you know and nirvana, for to nail than you can come to a country where everyone I figures on your team. Yeah, it's about like when I came home. Raffaele did not go home to that feeling room like granted ever like, basically,

his home town really rally behind him, but ITALY didn't and so he was living as a kind of unwanted individual for those years. While we were still on trial and a potentially wig, we were found guilty again and were potentially gonna, be going back to prison If you're looking for a present for some of this christmas or holiday season, it's no brainer skylight frames, I'm telling you this is the perfect give for any one, you love in your life, if it I have, you a times I have no, but no less than fifteen scarlet for epps the bribery one there easier helping to set up an under sixty seconds, it's a beautiful, then it's scream touch screen is gorgeous. They give your heart. Percent satisfaction guaranteed. So if you don't love it, they're gonna give you full refund. But more importantly, you see then the frame, then you can loaded up with photos or you can just get it to him like and then what you do,

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cases have to go through all three levels before their considered definitive and what happened in my case as I was found guilty of the trial level, I was acquitted at the apple at level, but my prosecutor appealed maya. Well, which you are allowed to do in ITALY and my acquittal was overturned by the supreme court and sent back for retrial at the apple at level. I was found guilty again and then the supreme court in italy overturned my conviction and definitively acquitted me. So if you go to italy nothing happens to you or you spend four years in prison for something you didn't do oh yeah. Well yeah, but what kind? What kind of crazy offers have you been given like they go? Hey we want your hosts Reality show Oh I'm sure you have to have gotten crazy offers. Well, had b b, frankly, quite in Seoul.

king offer of twenty grand do a porno twenty grand come on. no shoot. You shot right at someone offer me that what do you point my price, but what is your phrased went to start looking backwards. I would to do a porn. She I think I could probably still keep working. If I did a boy see, that's that's the difference between you and me. People were just see me doing a porn and be like. Oh, that means that she's guilty of murder. Like that's what- you better because, like I have friends who are in the sex business and like, I think, it's a perfectly fine business to be in I just I'm not allowed to be in it bottle my daughter's on lobbying at either just for the record. Ok, but what what else likes you ever get offered to host reality shower dancing? stars. I have been asked

you dancing with the stars, which is funny as I do actually like to dance and am actually pay, good, I'm not good at all kinds of dancing, but I do swing dance me and my husband swing danced together. and we love it. So I love today I love ballroom dancing. I can't like moon, walk or anything like it. my hands. But no, but I didn't do that because again, like my sort of problem is before anyone knew that I was a real person. They knew me to be a tabloid person. They knew me to be a person that you don't take seriously, that you ridicule that you use as a derogatory term, and I've been digging myself out of that grave for my entire adult life and it would it would it would seem weird for you to be under the stars and just in from my perspective, I be like.

I'm not a celebrity with its. It was, but you are, but I am an I'm a tory us like people I have infamy, but I'm not a celebrity what I known for is not something that I'm celebrated for right. It's a weird thing, because your your point in from being on podcast or promoting yourself is too since reclaim your name back and to show that I am actually putting out good work into the world. You progress is fantastic. Thank you, we're going all out over the name, don't under the name. I just I just subscribe today, not limitations, not hibernation insipid knives, salutation, damn it. What is the name? Your bike asked labyrinth, labyrinth, clo, emeralds, think David belly anyway, it's funny. I listen to you on rogan. I had notes I listen to you on rogan and I was like I could listen to her talk for fucking hours. You you're very, very well spoken, meaning.

You put intent behind every word, you say to come across and shall appoint an always do that and its and its makes listened to very easy, there's not a lot of bullshit between. I don't waste your time yeah, you're very direct, we are also very intelligent. You seem to have an angle on about everything Joe would bring up. You hadn't you you, you could go back and forth them on in a fucking universal income verses well, fair verses. Andrew Yang bird, like just and also to make it clear that also, I dont know, is a very legitimate stand to take. I think a few like there is the sort of feeling that, like saying I don't know, I don't know enough about. This is not good enough. I do not actually have to have an open in on everything. I happened to have an opinion on those things were yeah well black, but and then I was like, and then you will I get my podcast. Isn't it it's not necessarily like this. It's more scripted and immediately

that's? Not what I want to hear. I want to hear on her here. Her hang and then I listened to it today and I was like I was like. Oh, this is a pretty good podcast It's an embryo, podcast yeah! He has a point as an angle. That's not why wandering witches, maybe the That's what I do right wandering encircle, sometimes People could argue that sometimes they hear the same stories over and over. This is clearly a final note I am at when I was first started this. I guess I was very I was. I would listen to what people said and then some of the notes were like hey man, you're clearing. teeth. A lot like a goat, That's actually a legit, that's a legit response I went that kind of auditory stimulation can drive people not and sold I'll, stop doing that and then there I came in the big one, the big one.

You're, not letting anyone talk your interview, people but you're, not listening to them and you're talking over them and when they start a story, you like those on environmental, and so I have tried, my best to to to eliminate that part of that is the What I feel like the people that listen. I think they know me so well now that they go. Oh of course, he's going to tell her about the machine. Well, isn't there also a sort of comedian like improv part like the yes and that you're doing like you hear something somebody says and you're like? Oh, I can add that. I thought that was your, but I know what I can add to your story. Naturally, I don't know what you must get arrested, because you robbed a train sir. Yeah it's it's interesting, but at, but I I I I feel like a podcast issue, what I really wanted to be moved. My wife wants

He started hers. She was like very in very like I wanna get female. the females remarried comedians. Why if comedians owner bring amano and talk to them, and I was I I wouldn't yourself into one thing. That is very specifically and or or a the da, a good framework of mine duncan good friend, Jos, as well said to me one. I'm about letterman idolized, dead letter minute these, the greatest it ever. Did that genre my opinion and and I've done a bug I did like a bunch of late night shows, so I know I just think he's the greatest. but he said in a crazy david letterman never got to change like he started. One format, and then he had to do that same format. For twenty years he goes, podcasts can be whatever you want it to be. Yeah- and I remember in that podcast with Duncan I had a panic attack and I said I'm happy I'm having a panic attack. They suffer your guided meditation and he did a fifteen minute- diet, meditation

that's the level of august, because you could this will not happen. and ass. I was interesting so I asked progress. Not ok like this, as I like this and they're, not it's just a little more thoughtful. Yes, and I do that. The point that I wanted to make with the podcast is that We all have felt lost at a certain point and one of the challenges when you have felt lost is too knowing that story to yourself about what happened like that. processing of this thing that felt so overwhelming and that you had no control over is is a challenge not just to get through, but also on the other end of it to process like what is this sorry that you then tell to yourself about that experience so that you can. It doesn't feel like its overwhelming to you like especially trauma based ones like everyone has a different time. They felt lost, and sometimes there on, and sometimes it's traumatic and especially with the traumatic,

once I feel like those used, you lose your sense of self, in the in the process and to restore your sense of self. You need to find your voice, your perspective, about what happened, and so I tried like that's been sort of my ongoing struggle and something that I feel like, maybe I'm well equipped to do, and other people What are less well equipped to do, or I I just I guess, a lot of people reach out to me and said I am going through some shit right now and I don't know how to feel about it and what to do about it and I feel trapped by it and it's like well. You. You can also have this sort of meta perspective of your own experience, where you are looking down at the maize that you're stuck in, and you can tell yourself a store about your own journey, and that is how you get out. So if I can help people find their voice and find their perspective about their experience by drawing upon my own sort of intuitive understanding, based upon my experience than that's a good thing and is also a worthwhile pod castles

I had a I came out a boot one, but that travel channel show did my came out of it with pretty intense ptsd because I was doing events that were overwhelming for me, jumping out of planes and from our charging and broken just everything. Jumping off analysts clocking clock out sharks at a day in africa, where Don't offers stadium I'm a great white sharks and I repeat, of table mountain all within a day. I think you know it's like I'm fucked up about that, though, like doing over and over again, one might call those peak experiences right, peak experiences are not supposed to happen over and over and over again, like peak experiences are peak because they are like a moment in your life that maybe you only have one peak experience of your life that you then sort of like have your whole certain of microcosm of your work like this? Is you and your experience in this is like

definitive moment for you and it defines where you are and if you are having peak experiences over and over and over again. What is your brain doing that? I am not surprised that you have ptsd, because you have no time to process peak experiences which are peak for reason. There are links there having into your most based survival instincts and you're like yeah. You know another day at the office like what We have three day you're not supposed to do that. We would do three day out, I'd have them and they will be. It'll be for two weeks and I'll be off for a week, and then we go back for two weeks. I did that for four years and I and then- and I just I had a really hard time, processing things and everything, but the aim would be the better to tell you this, but everything was at a level tat. Everything was a little town. I couldn't, and I can I in all my experiences to be the level tat, I saw the problem with tat a little bit right now, I'm right now, I'm going through that I did

I had a really really really intense. Or weak run on the road. I am. I lived in a tour bus, but it was like I mean just yes just started: doing arenas and, so I didn't really I was doing arenas. I knew my body was doing arenas. He was telling me. I abstain going out, I'm doing arenas now as a fucking, bad ass. I go out gotta, be awesome and then, like a grain of and I was like await this- is an arena then again, yeah you're, doing a bunch of arenas. Now- and I was like- oh I didn't know- I really didn't know I was doing arenas. I don't really, much attention to this as the venue. I just look it I look at the numbers and then I go what needs to be sold and focus on that and I, but I don't. I don't think I don't think I was and then I the first rina like was just it was oh and overwhelming experience them here, and I want a fourth estate I mean I went to school for state.

Wrote right when I left us we're not launched amazed. Zenith number forty on country country and wasn't really. I wasn't ceremony like didn't, celebrate my leaving the the school kind of hated me and they want Get out so a kind of stunk, my leaving conniston like. I didn't, have a connection with the school anymore yeah, although I had the greatest time you could ever have in college, I felt like I felt like I owe it was soured by some tea. Failed me and some classes because they felt like I said so, the name of the school and do? What did you do? The work? yeah I did the work and then I went in and I was like I was like what can I make up the work this guy is like you can go fuck yourself. excuse me he's going to be Joe can't get away with that anymore. He was like he was like I'll. Tell you what man I spent my entire time getting my doctorate at the school and you've just trashed the name of the school. Is it

my wife, why did you use singularly trash? The name of the school year is a duty of whatever knows so. Pretty big articles before fame was a good thing. You know it was like ninety ninety seven, so I do not know what was famous like now, like everyone's famous like it was a big deal, and this guy little He told me to go for myself and then I'm sorry I told no, no, I think you have dealt with where stuff, and so I cannot these are in danger. I should be sorry I can accept that of all to thank you. No bill, I can feel that genuine. and so I didn't have a connection I felt, I was sour when I left also like the bugs me out like he restored, professor who had a duty to you as a student. I would like to get his name, but you know what I want me to like to get his name, but I don't need to. He also had one you're, really weird version of you in his head, didn't like me at all. He spent one class red

in my article out loud in the class wow? He sat at the window ass. I read the article and he picked apart. The article and he deacons. trotted the articles in my whole life is a journal of the writing class. So I guess he felt, but he, weirdly aggressive two due to a very aggressive. Any problem humiliated me throughout that entire class night. I ll, unaware. I was unaware. That would be something someone would do so I kind of was I could good sport about it. How can I think you to fight the attempt and remember much good in that that shares this kind of rolled within those like yeah. What's a you know, part in whatever I just kind of maybe played into the character. So then, when he, males very shocked that was like. I was a good guy that we are on the same page like an old eyes, humiliating ichor, humiliated we're on yeah, we're cool now and then and then, but then income.

Actually, I performed at florida state formed. I formed in the same place. I wonder if, on a play like I performed at the civic center as arena- and it was- I mean, like that- whole It was just processing, emotion that I went on one on campus and people will come up to me and they were walk about buddy boy, and I was just like I mean sobbing crying one world campus people posted something on instruments. Everyone knew as on campus. Yes, kids were come another dorm rooms and try to find me, and it was like that is ended with me. They gave me Spear that chief abiola does the same thing and it was fuckin birthday. I finish grows by convey my life. You put port killing me Let me just show me the greatest there. My life you're acquittal from prison might have been pretty good, but that's, it seems like they didn't

they saw you as a person saw me of your person. I wanted. I wanted them to see me as they were out of me. Yeah, the whole school was proud of me and I was like something where you forever you works. It sounds to me, like your teacher, was just completely miss the point of who you are Well, you were hoping what your dreams wrote. He didn t you didn't give a shit about any part of me. I think it's! What about I'm? curious in the middle of telling you this other. Why am I telling her this Think I realized it is same feeling. You must have about those prosecutors in the pit but did you wrong? We go I'm not. You thought I was gonna judging. I need you to know why I'm here, and that was what I look first at like I'm, not an idiot thread bad intentions for this college yeah because of good I'm a good person yeah and when I came back they treated me like they treated me like fucking forest state treated me like goddamn, old I've. Never I wool

I always have a place in my heart for that school for as long as I live just because of how they were just so kind to me, the students all the time when I saw me fuckin really fuckin magical may accepted you, for you are so maybe If you can perform an arena in ITALY, ok audits, that's what's mine maybe they figure. But when do you think you'll go back to italy, so I happened with italy already once rely on. Our did actually gave a talk. There how famous for you in ITALY. Well how famous? his oj simpson here in the? U s, while the pre crazy, that's what they call me over there. Do they? They don't call me juice, but they they basically are like you're, the o J simpson of ITALY. You should do a rental car, commercial. Oh god, where I'm right in italy a bill of rights. Now, thank you. Now. I'm actually went

the italy innocence project which did not exist while I was still in prison, invited me to go and speak there for them to speak about trial by media and so I went to a kind of did what you're talking about. I wasn't energy but it wasn't auditorium and it was full of italian people and an reception.

Well, I was terrified going into it. I did not know I like did not know. People were going to be throwing shit at me like. I had no idea, but I I went up there. I did my thing I told my bit and and saw standing applause the entire, the entire auditorium, and I was I I had special protection while I was there because there you know there are paparazzi crazy and also like I received death threats, so it was like a whole big thing. I had a personal guard sort of like take me off stage and down into the basement of this, like big bill,

the thing where I was basically hiding out the entire time. This conference is happening and when I got down to the bottom- and he like- I, I feel like- I was like sort of deer in headlights from like the people standing up and applauding, and I was whisked away and then as soon as we got down to the bottom of the stairs in the basement, he gave me like a little squeeze and just said perfecto and I just started bawling. I was just a lost my mind because I was like I didn't know. If people would listen to me and a lot of people after that reached out to me and said: I'm sorry, so not my prosecutor and not the police, but those people said they were sorry and I really appreciated that. So I kind of debt that what I haven't done. Yet it's a stand up comedy special.

Yeah, I can definitely help you. I can definitely help you with your story. When I was twenty two years old I got accused of murdering into the years. I would have been telling my story starts. When I was twenty years old, I got involved with the mafia. Here's. What happened? Okay, yeah yeah yeah that's what I did. I did. I'm curious how met, your husband and did he not cause he's here? He's a producer chris Robinson, yes, dear good and good awesome. What are the odds you thought I could pull that. I'm not aware- and I thought I knew it cause. I was like there's a that- your name stuck because I credit the other chris robinson black crowes. So I was like I've been getting Google alerts that tell you, but god, as to how you met him and did he know about your story beforehand and how? Because what

When I met my wife, she didn't know those written royal magazine and wonder we're she was like hate. Someone said you some party animal and also of shit, It's been so long since that article came out like not subject. Five years- and I was like oh there's- probably something let you read my gave her- the article and we're embedded issues, like? Oh, my god, look miss articles like I took a shovel. pizza box, when election, it just doesn't doesn't pay me as like could read it because I am but it is definitely. I am go, and so she was like. Oh, this change anything she was like. Now, I don't think those who make up almost no. You are here. I met air now, but how did not happen with you and your husband so I in writing, for a local newspaper are doing like first I was writing under a pseudo avenues. Doing arts correspondence I was I going to play- is plays room a meal monday on the monitor

a meal is low level, yet amuse the name of a character in a book that my grandma liked as a kid and Monti was like a can of del monte peace that were on the counter. At the time that I was trying to have more name, So I was writing under a pseudonym, but I had actually just start writing under my actual name right before I got an assignment to red and review a novel by a local like a davy novel by a local artist, which was him didn't know who he was. I had no idea. I was given a copy of his book and asked her of Europe where the paper, the name of this book is war of the encyclopedia suggests it is about it's about shoe best friends, one of whom gets deployed in Afghanistan or iraq, Iraq and the other is deployed to poetry school. and they stay in touch I writing this Wikipedia page to each other about each other? Meanwhile, they-

have weird throttle quadruple situations hilarity ensues the opening seen as some them going to like it? arts costume party, where one of them is dressed as he's gone, a date with someone who's dressed his sexy osama bin laden arise. Yeah, it's a funny back it's it's funny and it's moving ikea has a really cool there's a artist person who has like an abortion and her like depicting like she theirs is drawing that she does as she sort of feels this like thing inside of her unravelling amy, as I did book. I wrote a raver view about it. You and I I like to say that I wasn't sleeping with him until after I read his book, so I but yeah I didn't know he was. I wasn't ever planning on meeting him. I wrote and reviewed a book or reviewed his book and then the day after

Under the name of an unnatural, yes under the name of noxious like one of the first articles, I was writing under my actual name, and I reviewed it submitted it and the day after I submitted it I'll walk out of my rebuilding and I notice that there was a flyer up in like the diner window across the street, and it was for a book reading of his book, and I was like oh shit, I never go out. I never go see anybody. I never do anything. Maybe I should just go to my local book store and check out this book reading for this book that I just read sounds kind of fun. I'm just gonna like duck in and try to invisible and of course it was a ducked in and I was not invisible, but I got to see him do his reading and afterwards I asked him for an interview and it was him in his best friend they rode book together. That was really interesting. So I am, I went and hung With them we drank scotch watch star trek chatted at the end of the interim.

He just shook my hand is that we should be friends, and I was like oh, I can make friends with people I'm like this is very shortly after I was fully exonerated and I was no longer being hunted down by the italian justice system and I was like huh. I can grow rich. I can like be friends with people like a normal person wow, so he was one of the first friends that I made since being fully exonerated and we didn't start dating until, like nine months later, but It was great because he didn't know much about my case. He actually he had. He had heard about it like he knew that it was a case, but he thought it had something to do with defenestration like someone being pushed out of a window. I had no idea that it was. You know what it words verbal hookers on his foot, Jimmy I've, I've, that's a joke. I've been saying my entire life, this it's it's from meatballs peoples, a bill. Murray movie tells a story about the guy in and the whole

Time he's got a hook in his shirt and he just comes out niggers. He was, then, he had a hook and they go whoa and they all start walking when and expands. One of the guys goes. I heard the same story but the hookers on his foot so they had here, I heard your story, the daily newspaper window, the window yeah. A lot like my one of my best friends miles. Mostly. Is that a comedian nanos guy guy that just one of the best in the world the resolute stand up, but nowhere. It's, never really pursued it. Oh you're in seattle, seattle's got a great scene. Yeah we've got good time yeah. I like same a joke to them. So them was our breakdown night really out. We should go to dinner. We supply talk about this over honestly, no, he started

dating me before he even read my book. I mean was that like did people know about you, but you're. The best got the baby in the world. Though we realise that there is no georgia and she's the best. actually already taken her on one trip and she, like did not ever find. At all she's the best yeah yes, yeah the really important thing the crystal when he met me. If you didn't go gummy, he just wanted to meet me be around me as job we're bodies like broke? You know she is right and you're just like I on a mom. I like her yeah, exactly everyone's. I was like what did she do first question and I was like fuck that question. I don't want to look at her view that lines up this whole. Yeah? So he didn't and then eventually the tabloids,

out about him and started calling him my boy toy in, like horrible stuff people photoshopped knives and pictures of ham, men like people made comments, how he must be a free coups in love with like us, go path or whatever. He eventually read my book. I thought He read it. It was shortly before the netflix documentary came out and because the netflix documentary is coming out and it was going to be bringing that whole experience up of in my if again I'm so he wanted to be knowledgeable of it and then he's had like this whole journey of like accepted. Not accepting the fact that, like people irrationally hate me, he struggles with it way more than I do. At this point, I think, be tired and he's really like one of the main reasons why I am even sitting here in front of you today, because when he met me, I was

hiding? I was not. I was not of not in the world and dumb. He was one of the people who sort of convinced me that I not only deserves to be in the world like a normal person, but like the world didn't even deserve. Me is basically his perspective. His dingers over yeah yeah, no he's he's he's, say stuff, like you're selling. The cows come on, don't stay on the couch, it's like being in prison. Let's go do stuff and you go home He's us constantly saying things to me like. I wish that you believed in yourself and you didn't let all of the horrible stuff I happened to you like. Let me bring you down and like you, you deserve so much better and she herself seizures inspired by her.

I would just like probably a good thing, but yeah. I love myself way more than my wife would ever love me So much is gonna celebrated Who is your artist by the way I river rock it sir, Oh god, primrose so gonna be like the expressions are fabulous. I want to see filled. Do us a favour import trip for us. Yes, I can make that happen. The text him right now, he he probably doesn't know this- is my phone number I'd. Call him hey it's bert new phone period. Can you do a family portrait for amanda knox and draw up on it This is a really talented guy and he was

the fuckin home and for me this is this. This warm mebbe reminds me of what I took control of my career. I mean it's gorgeous love is rather some of these drawings. I so absolutely can I ask like how the vision for these drawings happened. Like did Joe have a vision, and he liked and brought it to life ordered you like to say. I have a vision, you're gonna, be in a school uniform wearing rollers gates, So awesome you're going to love it, so he would go. I wish we should get more of them cause you can see exactly and so. Okay ready yet so where's my philly one. see this one right here. Yes, so this is a story I told the story I told about ralph samson Ralph samson is a professional basketball player who hates me when I was a child.

I wonder how much time I forget pent up I mean: can you keep saying things that ensue? like I said, if I mean the arrow term, show just how loud he's great, but I said to him: hey. Can you send me. I want to do one for. do unfulfilling. So he sends me like these ross, oh yeah, and then and then I go yeah, but I wanted to kind of look like this away. The dissident mass is a motley. Has me stand like that bananas roused by me she's really fun. It was a lot of fun, so a texted him go. Hey sober october was the best my favorite poster, there and I said Adam, he was our first sober october, can you make me in tom, looked like the blues brothers, and here is that we should put our in Joe in it, and I was like oh yeah as a gap put on.

as as as one dame margot, whoever the fuck was. female mermaids, precisely again. I don't know famous people. I'm sorry, I'm just a movie with more camel should nor name per kilogram sesar and he's gonna, joe is James. Brown was like a great way to the facts, Life right or I'd, say, came, hey man I'm to be in hawaii, Can you me riding ghip just put me right, miss sharp or something ok, and this one. this is our family portrait. This is my favorite. That's me. Oh we georgian ilo, and I was like really fun of really really funds are just claiming My career, like I, was just taking control of it where, like it, I promote a little bit then. I can then I won't come home from his indian people when you gonna be in chicago, if just little bit of extra work. I'll pull honest ramble, I'll get the thing I said is a poster for chicago.

I'll be selling? These are the show and there is great now now, things are little pass this for me in that I have now have one or both prize over there somewhere of law tor poster for the whole torn and but these decisions really fun period of my life. I do they ve all reference, jokes. They you, some. This is tat by just one look like breached about mere ok. Some. There is a period of time or me in the sky. Thompson girl were fat, shaming each other. At any time, I could put talkative you'll make em, look fat or like us, on the cleveland and I had the quarterback from the time was was partying, and I had a picture of me out partying johnny men's, you have us what's up with their like red vito. Does this really word, as he does a lot of work? I see I am the closer links with a group of Florida there

I grew up in a wearing just vetoes up until I was like a fuckin legal. Little tiger up seattle ever birchen stocks problem, this was a big foot. Flogged become online, a flip blobs yeah, really fucking comparable and up. But do you have like a callous between year two friends now has I'm sure I do so. What but not now, not that I notice did you get any scars where you in prison, scars? Well, I have, let's see, I wasn't so. I never got like beaten up in prison just like little scars like just cut your foot, you're like oh shit, a guy, scar on my foot right here that I I remember where I was when I got every some ice, that scar remember. Night nobody's going his house and his mom was trying to get it stop, leading by been drink in all day and we couldn't get it to stop bleeding and then that one

Dr the extent of the first time I was told I had high blood pressure and I was like god's impossible. I don't have high blood pressure, but every time I see that scar, I think about. That at any scarlet now I'm a big score. My elbow and thy surgery. Do emotional scores, can't there they there just certain things, and I ll never forget like what something you run into and wrap this up. I owe you, babies been too perfect. What's something that creep up on you like, were you like a smell or something where it just takes you back to that. Actually, there's like I have a good story about this, and so I didn't spend that much time in ITALY and not in prison spent. The vast majority of my time in ITALY, in prison due to people you go going. Guess I don't recommend it. It was so I basically became fluent in italian in prison. I was not fluent in italian before

So there are certain things that I learned in present day. Yes, I do they say that, like it's worth it in person come to learn. English improves the rebuke so you will submit fuck yeah, we'll yes Absalom, so there. There were certain terms that I thought were. The normal terms that the priest had to continually tell me were not the correct terms like I kept referring like so This said yeah is this with the word for chair its. similar to the word, sit at a time which means to set or like yours said: addy is your, but but only ever learned the term coola, which is like that. The ass an

just likes, throwing out like. Oh, let me just sit my ass over here. My phrases like what are you saying, like you're, a good little girl like why using these terms anyway? So, but better one was when I finally got out of prison. I went on. I was invited of all things to the seattle international film festival by like the local person, and they were showing an italian film that was with napolitano dialect. And I had only only ever heard napolitano dialect in prison so immediately going into this fellow I was like oh this'll, be interesting, I'll, just watch the italian film sierra goes and it, though, the die at the way, the p or speaking to each other, immediately brought me back into prison, and I had There is one moment where someone went up to a window and called out a faculty which

in tie means did we don't really have a word for this in english but its bring your face to it. So I come to the window basically and I had only ever heard that term in reference to the prison bars people telling me come to the prison by. as I have to talk to you, like your in your cell, the guards outside of the cell there like or a faculty, and so that I did not have a good will Internship with the bars of my cell, like I, I almost always refused to ever, even look at them because they made me feel claustrophobic, and so I did not like the the experience of like having to come up to them and like look through the little slit and like ages, bothered me, and so as soon as I heard the person in this film say. Oh father DE I am, I started a hyper ventilating and I had a panic attack and I had to leave the movie theater

because I was just not. I was not ready for that. So that's one of those things. Jesus things Jesus that yeah that one things crete, when I always say the thing that makes me cries and the thing you think it'll be a psycho. I was trying to think of a right way to say this on stage, but when we put our dog priscilla down, I am telling us that on stage it was it it wasn't until, like she shit on the couch and the guy was like a dog show on the couch, and I went to defend her. I don't think it's ok that's the thing when I repeat what I said: it's ok baby and I realized oh she's, not here anymore, but all of the broad man, and so like others. This does weird side things, the falcon flip ya out, we're like I've, been there spike that happen, but ah, but I do, I feel, like I've covered everything correct, you think I haven't we in there.

The whole world's inside this person will tell you what I found. Would you from when this case started not started started, but when in the news. I remember first learning about you, and I followed it well enough to be monitored by when the dock faded and never document came out. I watch that and to see one rogan. You are great on rogan I didn't see already, but when I saw you on whitney, I went oh, I remember being so happy for you cause. I was like. Oh, this is she's getting out there like his reclaiming her life. She is not going to just disappeared. I think I think I followed. I heard you at times about what your life was like back in seattle and when I saw you on rogan, I just absolutely fucking form of yours like she is so fucking she's, yours, so good on that I think we ve isolated Joe yeah yeah offence, stick on that podcast you're. Very you just a great speech

an unknown number of overt privileged to have had only projects with. Thank you very much. Thank you for having me now. I appreciate it caused the august out all thank you. I would for this delicious june shine. I gotta. Do now see the machine story and then that's it yeah all. I need to learn how to do punch lines out of tragedy that something I would love to get back on board your right now. I'll tell you. Thank you thank you this happened