The year is one thousand nine hundred and seventy and the unthinkable has happened. Jack the in Kirby, the man most responsible for building the Marvel universe next to Stanley has suddenly and without warning defected to DC This is a bombshell. This is the equivalent of the Celtics Larry Bird leaving for the Lakers DC, wastes no time posting about its big acquisition, the company ads in its comics touting Kirby's arrival. Kirby is such a towering figure teasers, don't even mention him by name, they simply read the great one is coming and promised people places and things so powerful and concept. It's almost terrifying. What's really terrifying, however, to both Kirby and DC is what might happen if

artist. New series were leaked to Marvel DC is determined to keep this under wraps security hi. Even other DC employees aren't told what Kirby's working on businesses recalls visiting DC's offices in top editors swarming him begging for a hint about the king's new projects, Kirby is paranoid And rightfully so? He believes marvel in his old boss. Stanley aren't above stealing ideas from him. In one case, Kirby concocted a proposal for a day C comic about a race of warrior women. In outer space he called Galaxy Green. The series never saw print, but a few months later Marvel published. The story in one of its black and white magazines, featuring a similar premise. It's written by Stan Lee so Kirby's new DC work must

remain locked up safe in the DC offices. But then, one day, a few months before the new title is set to hit stands. Kirbys is it makes a friendly visit to marvels offices. And you'll. Never guess what he finds there wondering. From Wondery. This is, business wars, David Brown We charted the rise of marvel of the 1960s. The fantastic four black spider. Spiderman all work

characters unleashed by the fertile collaboration between Stan Lee and Jack Kirby. These two men redefined superhero storytelling and made Marvel a pop culture force, and they did it in just a handful of years, you're listening to me In our six part series schemes, scams and double crosses now jack. Kirby is gone, fled the DC. His relationship with Stanley Lee been strained for years. The final straw, a new contract Kirby, thinks there, a marvel lawyer called him at home, Mister Kirby, or what are we going to get your signed contract this? contract is completely unfair. Some changes have to be made. There will be no changes, Mister Kirby, you can take it or leave it signed the thing, Forget I don't speak to me that way, I'm far too important to marvel to be treated like this important everyone,

created everything in marble. Any can draw up his ideas. Goodbye, Mister Kirby, There comes a time when We've had a gut full of everything. Curb would later say I had a That's full of Marvel now it's one thousand nine hundred and seventy Kirby the DC in the world. Comic has been an upside down. The industry furbies legions of fans are holding their waiting to see what Kirby will do DC offers and its biggest title the responsible for putting DC on the map. We're talking Superman here Kirby, however, is hesitant to kick the current writer and artist off the book. So he, As for another title, without a permanent creative team, it's called Superman's PAL Jimmy Olsen. It's an odd choice, to say the least, he's now work

and often goofy Superman, spinoff starring, the freckle faced Daily Bugle photographer, but Kirby immediately sets out to completely revamp the in a single issue, bringing More of a marvel field to the previously kitty? Comic, it's move that makes his conservative Dc Superior's uneasy, but this is not Kirby's dream project remember that California meeting the artist had with Carmine Infantino in Kirby, showed the DC. Had some mock covers of a project he been working on the ones in Fantino was so enthusiastic about he offered Kirby a contract on the spot will Kirby calls this series the fourth world a family of three interconnected, fantasy titles, chronicling a conflict between powerful, be things on distant twin planets. In hindsight, pretty good metaphor for the Marvel Dc Battle, the idea

for the fourth world germinated when Kirby was working on Marvel's Thor Justin, for example, of the creative bleed between the two publishers. We conceived of a race of new gods that will replace the old ones of myth. The fourth world features loads of far out. Ideas and characters, perhaps most memorably, the introduction of cosmic villain dark, who can blast powerful energy beam from his eyes and who has a burning desire to conquer the universe, dark underling Steppenwolf, another Kirby creation served the antagonised in the twenty seventeen film justice long before I was born, he came as the spear head of an alien invasion. This will be for Kirby's fourth world, Thomas, is to not only generate a tsunami of publicity but to potentially turn around fading Dc Dc

He still leads marvel in overall sales, but the challenger is closing fast. So, DC is taking no chances that Kirby's new line could get out and that's when it does, one of Kirby's assistant stops by the Marvel offices and he his floored by what he finds tacked to the wall he finds photo copy page. From Kirby still unreleased. Fourth world comics. When Kirby hears about it, he flies into a rage. His work how vulnerable to copying. How could this possibly happen to could have possibly done this. The list of suspects is short because so few people had access to this work. Kirby as one name in mind. Any Coletta. The series anchor Vinnie's in charge of taking Kirby's, penciled, artwork and finishing it with permanent ink like Kirby,

many colletta, is a longtime fixture in comics he's? Also one of the more colorful characters to ever come through the industry Let letter was born in Sicily and grew up on the Brooklyn street. He comes across the person is a character straight out of central casting from the godfather. He has a head of thick white hair that he comes back, he's a flashy dresser. I showed up at a comic convention wearing a white suit in a black silk shirt unbuttoned nearly to his navel his book. He would often Go up at Dcs Office is so would a parade of active young women who would disappear into his personal office behind a closed door. Employees would met with a smirk that co lead must be sketching. The ladies he is also rumored to be dating. The latest bond girl whether he has actual underworld connections, he certainly likes to make others believe he does. It's all part of his habit of making himself seem important.

He once came to Dcs Infantino, curiously, offering to carry messages back and forth between Infante and Stan Lee. So when pages from Kirby's unreleased? Fourth world book, found hanging in the Marvel offices. Well, the evidence points to Coletta it's unclear. If his leaking of the work is malicious or just ham. Fisted attempt to build up his own importance either way DC is livid by the betrayal and Coletta is fire, does Kirby's anchor betrayal must have been in the air because another curious case happens around the same time, DC suspects. It has another spy in its midst. The company brass has a hunch that late at right. After most of going home, some employee production department is rifling through desks. Looking for

Intel to link to the fanzines or, worse, Marvel itself DC is determined to catch the spy and do so. The company launches a world war two style counter espionage operation, the of a novel. The mission, like all proper top secret rations even has a code name, it's called blockbuster DC's. Oh sure, Carmine Infantino draws up. Phony memo on Dc Letterhead claiming company is soon going to be putting out a new line of massive five hundred page comic books, publisher leaves the decoy memo in the out tray on an employee. Desk one night, and then he waits the trap works word of the new. Blockbuster books, mysteriously finds its way to various fanzines and, of course, over

Marvel's Manhattan offices located just a few blocks north from DC in Midtown Manhattan, next thing. Anyone knows Marvel Stan Lee is talking about doing his own five hundred page book for a dollar the spy is busted though he is ultimately dealt with mercifully. Instead of being tired. He is instead, no longer allowed to work nights where he might have the opportunity to rifle desks all activity makes for a paranoid? atmosphere at DC. Around the same time, a long time Marvel writer named Larry Lieber applies for work at DC, since his resume over to the company and wait to hear back DC, never tax in which is a bit strange, because Lieber is an accomplished veteran rider who and the first appearance of iron man. Among many other high profile comics, you think any comic book publisher would be lucky to have him. There's just one problem

Larry Lieber also happens to be the brother of Stanley a few months Libre is in a Manhattan watering hole when he runs into Carmine Infantino there. He confronts DC boss about the snuff carmine. So what gives Come I never heard back from you. In my resume, what You mean that was on the level we Stanley was sending you over to spy on us. It's a funny story part, because all this cloak and dagger, in the context of superhero comics, sounds absolutely ludicrous. But over the years there have been several incidents all the information mysteriously making its way from DC to marvel, or vice versa, and several other in Square. The coincidences we're so you can't help but wonder

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all the dubious similarities between Marvel and DC comic book characters involved Marvel's, the x men. You know them. Of course, even if it is hard to believe in the beginning, center which is targeting mutants, and they began targeting everyone. Got their own movie franchise in two thousand starring, Hugh Jackman as Wolverine Patrick Stewart. As professor x, the super team was introduced in nineteen sixty three and the first issue like so many of those early Marvel titles was written by Stan Lee and drawn by Jack Kirby. In a novel twist, the group's members are Al Que Schon, feared by society at large for their abilities, they're, led by a wheelchair, bound genius. That's professor x It's a neat idea and one that Dc C had just happened to do a few months earlier. Their comic my

venture number. Eighty introduced the doom patrol a team of super powered outcasts, led by a wheelchair, bound genius. While the cover of x men number one promise. The strangest superheroes of all the doom patrol were built: Their cover as the world's strangest heroes in another incredible coincidence, the doom patrol squared off again the group of villains called the brotherhood of EVIL in March, one thousand nine hundred and sixty four, and why Oh, the very same month, the x men fought the brotherhood of evil mutants the create Dcs. Doom patrol was Arnold Drake, with help from Bob Haney Yes, those are the very same writers who stumbled upon those first Marvel comics in nineteen, sixty two and tried to warn the DC brass about the coming revolution: probably surprise that they were responsible for one of the few comics in DC. That really felt like a Marvel comic. In fact, it felt so much like a marvel.

I that Marvel seem to copy it. Releasing the x men just three months after the doom patrol hit newsstands after saw the x men Drake smelled a rat he stormed into his editor's office. Look at this have you seen this: it's exactly like doom patrol the team leaders in a wheelchair and everything yeah yeah yeah drag, don't get your bowels in an uproar. You think the wheelchair things a new idea right. It's not it's not gives like Nero Wolfe of been solving crimes from arm chairs for years Drake, initially agreed in, didn't suspect foul play. At least he didn't push it. He reasoned three months between doom patrols, release in X, men, one hitting stands, was not enough time for Marvel to rip him off later in life. However, he would change his opinion. He suspected Someone could have leaked the script to Stanley, giving the Marvel editor enough time to copy his idea. Lee claims

who is unfamiliar with the doom patrol and had he known of their existence. He would not have done the x men and so the mystery remains coincidence or theft and uh equally suspicious case involves swamp thing, Dcs Popular monster introduced in nineteen. Seventy one swap thing: or a strong resemblance to a Marvel muck monster that debuted a few months earlier called man thing to further. As matters the co creators of swamp thing and man thing happen to be roommates. I don't think we CALL in Scotland Yard to figure this one out, you can see why Jack Kirby might have been a bit paranoid at DC. His suspicions about Stanley actually back decades. We back in one thousand nine hundred and forty one kirby and his then partner, Joe Simon, became convinced that

will was not paying their fair share of royalties for the creation of Captain America, and so they need She did a deal to jump to DC the pair. Don't quit all right away and decided to keep their DC dealer secret, The word somehow got back to Marvel's owner Martin Goodman and he did not take news! Well, he wasn't about to give them a counter or they couldn't refuse, but he was in about working a little fear into their lives either. One day Simon and Kirby were working at their Manhattan studio. When three of Goodman's relatives burst in. There was Goodman's brother Dave A would be photographer, who used his camera and the promise of contract to pick up girls. It was also Goodman's. Other brother Abe are usually quiet. Bookkeeper type rounding out. The trio is the man known as uncle Robbie Goodman's loudmouth brother in law, who worked for the publisher, but and when was quite sure what he did exactly. They want to talk

to Simon and Kirby, only there acting like extras from mob movie. Hey. What's this about? You is it working for DC. You haven't been true to us. You I've been loyal to us use should be ashamed of yourselves, okay, okay, okay, take it easy! better finish. This latest issue of Captain America, or else after you can consider yourselves fired, fired. Fine, fine get out of here It's unclear how Marvel found out that Caribbean Simon were planning to jump. Ship Kirby has a theory, Stanley, the next time I see that little son of a bitch I'm going to kill him Kirby promised of Lee according to Simon Kirby, for the of his life, until the day he died, hated Stanley and

one thousand nine hundred and seventy one. He is about to exact some revenge Kirby is busy working on his new DC titles. Then, in the x. The issue of one he introduced con man called Funky Flashman, the character is uh. Ringer for leave right down to the to pay beard and snappy banter in the comic flash. Man literally runs a slave plantation and gets paid for doing nothing in the shadow worlds between success and failure. Their lives, the dry. Even little man who dreams of having it all. My caption reads: the opportunistic spoiler without Richard Rohr values, phrase on all things like a cannibal, including you, the caricature in real life, wounds, Stanley and further sours Kirby's relationship with marble we wouldn't be laughing for long, though his dream project, the fourth world, is perhaps too ambitious, and the titles struggle there quickly, canceled

these hope. The Kirby's new line would be a Marvel killer goes up in smoke. Dc is out of options. It's lost no direction forward. It tried copying marvel which led only to embarrassment and now the gambit to steal its rivals. Top talent has fizzled sales are road through the 1960s, while Marvel surge in the night. Seventy two, the inevitable finally happens up, becomes down becomes white and the little underdog company that a little more than a decade ago had just one full time: employee, past The industry's giant David, kills Goliath. This being a rivalry story. The wave marvel takes. The naturally involves a shakespearean style double cross. It starts in nineteen, seventy one decides to raise its cover price from zero dollars and fifteen cents to twenty five rumor. Has it the movie

dust with Marvel and Marvel also agrees to raise its price nearly simultaneously price fixing This is potentially illegal, mind you but to mom and pop industry. No one is going to raise a stink DC raises its prices. First then marvel Marvel's, Martin Goodman has something else in mind: going to renege on this day, with DC after just one month at the higher price, suddenly going down zero dollars and twenty cents this is going to be stuck at the higher price point there really going to take a bath and take a bath DC. Does it five cents cheaper? Marvel Comics, are even more attractive to young readers, but Goodman isn't done toying with Dc. To celebrate. Finally besting his longtime rival. He treats his staff to dinner and drinks at a local Manhattan restaurant. He chooses a bar called the friar tuck in right across from Dcs Office is on Third Ave at 55Th street, where its staff likes hanging out

marvel crew enjoys a wild night chowing down on steaks and tossing back drinks, this victory cap an unbelievable run that started just eleven years earlier. Stanley was ordered to come up with a clone of DC's Justice League instead new. American mythology was born and Marvel remain on top for good outside of a few months here and there DC will never again lead in monthly comic book sales, but in the end, Periodical sales will turn out to be small potatoes, but cause in a few years both coming will discover where the real money lives. In Hollywood, the revelation was set off a frantic exploitation of the superhero characters and touch off a bitter new war between these old photos, one that will I'll be worth billions I hope enjoy this episode of business wars. Please

I have an apple podcast, Stitcher NPR one or wherever you're listening right now, you'll find a link. Episode, notes just tap or swipe. The cover, art and you'll see some offers from our sponsors to we hope, you'll support our show by supporting them and hey. If you like what you heard would love for you to give us a file. Star rating and tell your friends how to subscribe while you're at it. Like to share your thoughts about the show or suggest some future business words you'd like to hear answer a short survey at one dot com, slash survey, that's one dot, com, slash survey, I'm your host David Brown, read Tucker author of slug, inside the epic fifty year battle between Marvel and DC wrote this Karen Lowe is our senior producer and editor sound design bay area, sound our shows

thank you to producers, Marshall, Louis and it was created by or non low fat as four one, three hey, I'm Dan Rubenstein, the host of the wonder. You show sports wars. This week we start a new five episode series on the battle between two of the greatest players to ever. Catch a football or talk trash, Jerry, Rice versus Dion Sanders, one loved, only football, the other loved only himself. They were like in one way, though both men hated each other's guts to listen to Dionne versus Jerry and other great stories subscribe now to sports wars from one three