This season of the cold podcast includes descriptions of rape, sexual assault, murder and domestic violence. Please take care in listening. It's now november, twenty fifth nineteen, eighty five at eight p m. This is the of Sherry Warren. She disappeared from salt lake city october, second, nineteen, eighty five, approximately six, thirty p m from the tom ploys crediting near Two months have passed since the disappearance of sherry warn her boyfriend carry hartman, sat down with the tape recorder. This is all the information I can possibly remember. If I don't get it all today are put together piece by piece there's. So much that's happened for almost eight weeks now can't hard to remember, every better carry recorded. Tape for a guy named Michael new Meyer, a private investigator I've. Not

able to find the original, but new Meyer made a transcript of it. So your hearing, these words, read by a voice actor, might be frank with you. see anything short of a miracle other than turning up simply, there remains, if that's the case or her king in the door. Again, terry recorded this. For a p, I not Roy police, detective jack bell, not sure why Harry did that jack ever received. The tape. Like me, he's only ever seen the sixteen page spiral bound transcript jerry brought. It was ozone both for it was all tied up. One of those that you combined yourself, new Meyer terrible's, our Michael new Meyer had a lot in common with carry hartman new might served in the navy and after getting out, had taken a job with the ogden police department. After long me come out here to roy and last along here,

started his own private, detective business or whatever carry admit new mire at the nice corporation call center, where they were both moonlighting in the fall of eighty five, they became fast friends and the topic of sri came up in conversation. New Meyer told carry had worked a homicide case in the past. He volunteered to look into it His disappearance carry made handwritten notes about this conversation, and I have copies. They say quote new meyer, private, dick sort of wants to help all dead Those needed has some good leads one. to remain underground for now. So that's. Why carry recorded the tape to tell his version of the story to Michael new meyer, MIKE I've put together Everything that I can think of up to date- it's just opinion and is giving you what you asked for as much for me, as I could carry offered few solid details about his relationship with sri.

He didn't, say how they met or talk about any of her interests or aspirations. He described himself simply as her lover I took her into my folks home and down to my sister's place and solid pretty soon she was a member of the family for anyone knew it. She was carrying the conversation and doing the dishes and very exceptional young woman. A man falling in love with a woman after she cleans his dishes. Where have I heard that before A moment ago. I mentioned, carries notes about sharif disappearance. There's another page where he wrote down the titles of two songs. The first was cherished by cool and the game. It's chorus repeats the lines cherish the love we have. We should cherish life we live now. This is the kind of lady that would come home after work. lying here on the couch in my bathrobe with candles around the room

the gone and a drink waiting. She was a very affectionate, giving generous wonderful lady to die and he was madly in love. Supposedly she had wait for him to get home for more than half candles. Let wine or office who block vote but if she had some problems there with jerry, found anybody that shit share them with the second song. come back and stay by Paul young includes the lyrics since you ve been gone opened. My eyes, and I realize what we had together. Will you ever return? I know at the time that I was going machinery there No one else in her life she was varies. despite an extreme rehab, I say that

because of our relationship with the exception. This is cold season. Three episode, three cherished the love from chaos. Alpine casts, I'm dave kali. Carry hartman's statement to private investigator Michael new mire include, a new version of his account of them. surely Warren disappeared I was at home, which is at six. Ninety seventh ogden utah, the phone rang. It was bored thirty p m carry said: he'd stopped by his apartment after finishing work, and we state college for the day before heading two. second job. There was sure it. The conversation went something like this. She said what are you gonna do afterwards? I work time out at nice corporation. I said well, I'm going to me. A more carrion dave were

They had served together in the ogden police reserved her care. Called dave. His best friend, He said he told Sherry he indeed, to rendezvous at a bar called sebastian. Next to the sewing machine repair shop. Dave own at around nine pm they'd have to drinks, then call it what's because she was kind of joking high cats that'll be about four in the morning, and I said no, I said I'm going to have two drinks and it's coming right. Home at this one time that little lady meant everything in the entire world to me. working all night with the boys, just wasn't water was cracked up to be in. When I said to drinks- and I was coming home- that's what I meant she said- tat wonderful said: I'll be waiting for you at home. That's the last word I ever heard for her. Carry said he had run a little late, getting too sebastian that night arriving just after nine

said, Dave more was already there waiting for him. We talked out a couple of drinks I decided at that time it would be allowed lot nicer to how sheree down there. I called my home no answer. when the phone rang and she didn't answer. I knew at that moment something was wrong: trees, mother's house, the product We ten ten, thirty ass. She said she not here, isn't she. With you that and that I knew at that moment. Something was wrong and drastically roar How well I know the latest gave me told us in the last episode he remembered going to the bar with carry at six, not nine. So again, every story here is out of sync, and it's not just off from what dave said. It doesn't line up with what carry himself told detective jack bell. The day after sherry disappear. Back then, he had said he had found out. She was missing the next morning from sherry's mom

sure is mom Mary Sorenson told pulleys. She had received two calls from carried the night of so here in this statement, carry shifted his story to bring it into alignment with marries. I keep calling I called all night I came home approximately ten thirty eleven collar ma called girlfriends. Nothing. Sure you told her mom on the day of her disappearance. She had planned to pick up her son from her estranged huh and chalk after work. She had then in time to bring her son home and have dinner at her parents house, but in this work of carry story. He said sure it instead planned to meet up with him, leaving her son with chalk that night through the following day. What they do is checked privileges as far as the sun goes on wednesdays and thursdays works out real Well for her picked him up on stay and delivers on thursday night surely was suppose,

to be at work early the next morning, forty miles south of home in salt lake city. Even if our nation ship wasn't good and it was absolutely excellent. She had a brand new job, a big promotion. She would not leave her son and just take off ditching her to stay away. On a week night with carry potential blowing her new promotion would have been out of character for sri this The type of lady there were not show up if she was to be a minute late. She would call feuds going. half a minute. Let's you would call carries After calling fisheries mom, he had dialed Roy city police despatched to report. Her missing. Despatch demagoguery or do I believe, jack bell? Who now has kicks obviously Is it the circumstances? There was no incriminating evidence of foul play today I didn't for my finger on it right away later on. I fell like he had picked me to report it too, because he knew

Jack now believes in retrospect carried pushed him toward possible persons of interest pushed away from himself, whichever which way They included a credit union patron. There is a man who came into the credit union ass sure for a date she went and have a drink with them at Sebastian. he's a real weirdo. He butter a lot called her. Wouldn't leave her alone, as well as a I shall read briefly dated after separating from her husband before dating carry no. This guy was imbalance and drugs. To what extent I dont know No, it was strong enough and often enough that it turns reoffend, she told them they hit the road, but carry took a more pointed. In talking about the last man known to have seen sherry alive. I think we need to look at this richard moss you heard from richard moss in the last episode he was, the branch manager surely had been training on the credit unions, computer system

Well, MR richard moss, Richfield was working with sheree those today periods. She were close enough for this guy's. She went to lunch with them. They did go in to richard masses car the first day now. This is a point that I must bring up when asked richard ma said well he was driving a marine nineteen. Eighty four toyota boy being No one in that entire credit union knew what type of car she was driving. None I, but yet this richard moss knew all of a sudden. How did you know when they went to luncheon MR mosses car tat, a strange Carry was well aware. His old high school acquaintance jack bell had already interviewed richard moss over the phone. Richard MOSS told detective jack bell other people. sherry told him see you tomorrow, I'm going to whack staff pick up my husband who needs to get his car parents and give him a ride home now She say that of chalk got through to her with a phone call and cancel the appointment. Why? In

aid unless she was just drawn. The brush him off which is passed on. This is one of them, arrange things at all chocolate cold, but carry did everything he could do to promote. Chuck warrant has been the guilty party in earnest, even if the guy didn't do it pray to god. He didn't do it. Jack had seen chuck warren as his prime suspect since the beginning, thanks in part to information provided by carry carry you with innuendo. They were having some problems with agreeing on child support. Courteously, and I believe that it would be two hundred and fifty two dollars. That's based on track per year course image. You get money and carry used. Hearsay seems strange struck with DR and eighty four. Thirteen thousand dollars super to whack staff, toyota on the whim of getting it repaired and no one ever seen either of them seems very strange, so carry could paint a picture using palette of circumstantial

colors, oh, and by the way, as of this moment, that eighty four super is on a lot for sale, chucks, pleading, the poor boy Poor situation, I can't afford this. I can't afford that. I know for a fact: amanda stick out. Twenty two twenty three thousand dollars. Second mortgage on his home, he did pay off that super. We set a dispute over child support, had stalled cherries divorce for some reason, shot come up with a figure of one hundred and eighty one dollars then was paying matt fairly regularly to cherie at the point that she disappeared. He did our five hundred dollars. She hadn't began to try and straight now this money matter. The man is very very money. Hungry he's a money person. That's all he thinks about supposedly by carries account money served his motive for chuck to kill sheri according to sri, should I believe her. If she said the sun wasn't gonna come up by tat, bats chuck came into the

ready union, maybe a weaker, maybe two weeks before she disappeared, the credit and had members as well staff meeting In so many words, I believe, we're very pointed words I'm going to kill you. I will Even for you for this, we ve heard story. A couple of times now from carry from shore is friend pen bulk and from the last person known to have seen sherry alive, richard moss, but this retelling of carries version. included a new detail. He flashed a gun at least a tree. I blame it on her. She didn't reported to the police any of this. I tried to get her to. She would do it, she to keep things status quo again, carried pulled this story to detective jack bell about a week after she read it appeared, but there is no mention of a gun in jack's notes of that conversation down

and told me, ok, shock come in with a gun in his waistband Now it was told my new meyer and her stepmother jack's notes show salaries by confirmed. Chalk and jury had been in some sort of confrontation at the credit union, branching ogden a week or so before, surely disappear so carries. laurie contained at least a colonel of truth, but I've talked to Sharif former boss myself. She didn't amber, seeing or hearing about a gun. I was told by Ladys, a worker that credit union wish saree. They said that shock with very volatile. He is there pleasant to talk to, but yet he would explode upon getting irritated mad strange personality done a lot of strange things. truck war and flashing a gun in a crowded credit union would have been more than strange. Any teller who saw it likely hit the hold up alarm, but maybe

Sure is the only person who saw it and maybe carries the only person with whom she shared that detail, or maybe carry decided to embellish the story to push more suspicion onto chuck Warren. My own opinion, I think, chuck knows something about it involved to what degree I can't say I think you know something about it. Definitely. Carry statement was a master class in the not so subtle art of casting aspersions shock took off work for poland depressed in l a day after sherry was messing Supposedly went home, put always vehicles in his garage, walk to the in city mall back and is to be a sixty block round trip. That's why a heck of a walk. This man there's not a physical specimen. It's not It is not an athlete. It's not. An average steer. Runner he's not. This is completely out of character for him. This man knew

Positive thing carry had to say about shock involved, his signing the paperwork that it allowed police to surgeries car after it had turned up in las vegas the onward thanks It's done to date as to lend a hand whatsoever, did sign a consent, search we were hoping will find something incriminating in the car. That was not the case, carry summarised what las Vegas metro police had found in the car? He mentioned the fingerprints they lifted from the driver door window, They haven't confirmed whatsoever whose prince they are. Hopefully las vegas will send prince up to us we'll be able to make match up with those carry use. Words like us and we as if he was himself a police, detective working the case. He had clearly learned about the details of the car from detective jack bell, but jack was begun an interim agreement how open he had been in sharing information with carry

to me. It was more carries manipulations, more of the same thing about and pity me to take the regime record from it, because we know each other, I wish to carry said he had at first thought sharif car might surface in the mountains east of ogden. Why You were kind over the opinion, Jack Bela myself that the car was dumped in cardy pined, you last create some are deep. something you can get a car into quickly here, too reservoir sector up deep cauzee loss was on the other side, the name cause might sound familiar. It came up a couple of times in episode, one cauzee reservoirs, it's near the camera, Where carry hartman tried to lure heidi pausing at the start of our story, cause he's near, where carries friend, brent morgan, the taxidermy

his wedding a year before sherry disappeared, so carry knew the kazi area. Well, but where is causing in relation to lost creek reservoirs picture a percent sign like on a keyboard. small circle in the upper left, a diagonal, slash and another circle in the bottom right. The top left circle would be causing the bottom right circle lost. Creek. The slashed between them is a mountain in his statement to private investigator Michael myers harry harmon said he had checked both cauzee and lost creek for sure rewards car. There wasn't a sign of any vehicle. Going down, you know, dragging rocks, they would have to do some skating Nothing carry knew the area. Well, he had dear hunt in the hills, around lost creek for years, he'd even taken surety lost creek earlier that summer sure- and I my two boys, my fishing- had a picnic up at last. Regrets warp

croydon by the cement plant is past, devil, slide absolute, fantastic, wonderful, they couldn't even better sherry did everything to put together the lunch fried chicken she bought the beer pop put all the she had her dad running around town getting eyes for it. She wouldn't let we do a thing. This is a kind of numerous lady. She was. not lady, she is but lady. She was carry referred to share in the past tense. Throughout this meant, even though she had only been gone about a month and a half police still believed she might yet be alive. Carry said. He had again searched for Sharif. Car lost creek himself while up, therefore the dear hunt, My three we learn. I scoured that thing. There was an appeal

that reservoir that I could get to than a car could get to that. I didn't check and double check, obviously not there I felt all alarmed at the car was not in the state. The ring being we had two hundred thousand dear hunters. We had at least that many pheasant hunters there and no one saw thing well, it turned out the car was in vegas, carry had a thing about how sure is car made it to vegas armor they The lady has gotten real trouble and she's not with us anymore. She's been dumped she's in vegas and some made various their get away and use their car to do. It it had been there a long time might jack bells opinion. It had been or possibly right off the bat. It went straight from salt lake to vegas. Why someone didn't spot it I'll, never be able to answer. In the last. so we heard how carried told detective jack bell of a co worker of his who had had a dream about Sri carry repeated.

story here to private investigator, Michael new meyer. You can take that For what you want. My this man is extremely credible. This gentleman told me that three or four times in his life, he woke up in the middle of the night, with a startling sinking feeling dream some comes to him in the middle of the night. He told me and he was writing this down when he was telling me carry icy, see in the company of a big man, approximately six, two or three two hundred twenty pounds. Blonde wide set eyes around big rock candy mountain down here around beaver utah. beaver as a small town that sits on interstate fifteen, almost exactly half way between salt lake city. You talk and las vegas nevada, big rock candy. Mountain is about fifty miles away from beaver, near Richfield, where richard moss lived again. Richard was the tall broad credit union manager. She had been training the day she disappeared, carries retelling of his

workers dream continued, even describe another person being there as being taught them really care wearing a black jacket, Sharif tall fairly, then surely stood five foot. Five, that's not tall but pay attention to this bit about the jacket she star care, and she has my a jacket on hearing this This man, those stopping at a convenience, store buying a donor to buying some gas carried previously told detective jack bell. Sure we had left for work the morning of her disappearance wearing his black parka, and he used this coworkers dream to reinforce that idea why this entire case could boil down to a tale of two coats, because There are conflicting accounts of what code or jacket surely had on when she left for work. The morning of her disappearance we'll get into this in more depth later in our story, but keep in mind knowing

What she was wearing could help prove who killed her carries. Worker wasn't the only person having psychic experiences involving sure reward detective jack, but had also received an anonymous letter just days before carry made his recording for the private investors. The letter writer had claimed to have special abilities. I got some information from a site, supposedly withdrawing sign. Cassell new station. I work for had received a similar letter around the same time. yeah I knew there was one to jessica jack should know, because chaos gave its letter to him back in eighty five carry hartman knew that too. He described the cycle, letter to K, I sell in his statement to the private investigator jack bell

has in his possession of four page letter of a lady that recounts her dreams same thing in essence, the same thing as carries coworkers dream. said she was in the mountains by red rocks she saw partying musical laughing entertainment. She saw Sri coerced out to a truck sri. Realising what had happened tried to get away struggled her neck was either snapped, strangled very gruesome. I described the girl with two guys in it. She said this gentleman drove a light. Colored board four by four, have done two tires mounted in rear bed on either side at a truck stop in the mountain she saw this man stopping at a convenience store. Also, he knew the owner of that convenience store, or at least the person working there bought a can. Of course,

steel rammed mirrored glasses, there was a female body that true they got rid of it somewhere red rock area. This is really hard. For me, though, this lady saw, mutilated body talked underneath evergreen tree with some powerful way to children cannot be seen from the road by a bolder five four foot diameter, sure these body, before it was mutilated, was molested. Then this ladys letter the worst possible of all things that could happen. Elles. Basically, what I remember that It's funny that two people completely separate of each other would describe this guy guy's blonde. Two hundred twenty pats funny is not the word. I would use, I've been in contact with some astrologers who told me this says of this morning. The lady told me she deterred.

sharif body is twenty two miles south east of the last place she was seen, which would put it about little cottonwood. Can this was is third separate reference to some form of psychic. In this statement she sees two men slightly belt friendly type, not the rock. truck, stop cowboy type business type business paper, She said in her professional opinion. The lady is not alive. don't put any weight on these dreams or psychic stories as evidence, but I do find it interesting carry described a big guy who was a bit cowboy and a bit business man rolled into one richard moss, the credit union manager. Sherry was training on the day she disappeared is tall and broad, and because richard was the last person known to have seen sherry alive. He was an obvious person of interest for police,

We heard in the last episode richards dad owned a livestock auction, but richard had himself pursued a career in banking. He was a little bit country, a little bit. Business type jack bell started to or, if carry was using the dreams and psychics to try derail his investigation. I started looking at carey, bruce serious zones getting all this other stupid crap that I knew wasn't coming from truck like these psychics. These pictures Carey had provided his private investigator with three separate psychic stories, all involved too also aspects trauma to the neck or throat of a female victim and disposal location in the mountains. P possibly near red rock cliffs. The spot sherry was lasts

as far as anyone knew was at the credit union office in salt lake city, it was just a few blocks from the toy yoda dealership where she had planned to meet her estranged, husband, chuck warren. end of her work day. I'll briefly touch on the wax staff toyota situation. I've been there. There are three times myself with flyers that I printed up one salesman that I've talked to machinery at all that night carry said one of the first ass he had made after learning. Sherry was missing, had been to a close friend of his his his name is Stephen K, bartlett special investigator for the district attorney's office. When Kerry says the district attorney's office, he means the salt lake county district attorney, ogden and roy are in weber county, not salty. County roy police, detective jack bell was leading the search for sri and carry it leverage his high school acquaintance with jack.

it inside information about the case, but Sri disappeared from salt lake city. We gave salt lake police a role in the search and carry was blind to what salt lake police were doing. That, presumably, is why he reached out to another of his childhood chums Steve bartlett, I called stephen said Steve. We ve got a problem, I said, but get them got it immediately. I told the severity of the case of our relationship, new right off the bat. Something was wrong, carried fed, Steve bartlett with the story of sharif disappearance, emphasising she left Her work that night added to meet her estranged, husband at wag staff, toy yoda in salt lake city carried urged his old friend to investigate stephen went down there and approach these people on the night shift. Ask them the same question. They

team chuck, worn sri worn anywhere on the premises or the car or any appointment. Any time at evening by content. Steve bartlett, carried in. He would be among the first to hear if salt lake police turned up any leads just another example of carry using his friendship to know who investigators we're talking to what those people were saying and where officers were, Looking for sure reward, he had minette waited Steve bartlett, just as he had detective jack bell Hmm. Dreams can sometimes seem so vivid. We mistake them for reality. They linger as we wake in those moments between sleep and waking, the content of our subconscious can seem all too real

that's how a woman, while Danielle felt when she came awake around five, a m on the morning of march twenty third nineteen. Eighty six, then not her real name. I mused, the pseudonym to protect her privacy in the dream, and yet felt something rough running over her cheek. Her arms seem too heavy if weighted down by cinder blocks. She opened her eyes, unfocused without contact lenses to the familiar but darkened space of her bedroom. The dream should have ended in that moment, but it didn't because Daniele had not been dreaming, but dark figure leaned over pinning her arms to her sides stumbled face, pressed against hers kissing her. Danielle. The figure said danielle

it had a man's boys carried on breath, wreaked of alcohol and stale cola Are you sixteen daniel? He asked she didn't answer. Are you sixteen? He repeated I'm thirty. She said confused and terrifying. She squinted trying to make out his face. Don't look at me I'll kill you. He said she began to cry, don't make any noise. He said, I'm a mother plea don't hurt me. She said her young son was not at home, thankfully had fallen asleep. It is babysitter

and Daniel, had wanted to wake him when she had returned home that evening, after a night out with a friend or you scared, honey. The man asked Daniele thought she detected a note of excitement in his voice at the idea of her terror. Yes, she answered its normal for me to be here. I am not going to describe what happened next. It's enough. No Daniele had feared for her life. She had believed the man might injure or kill her if she had resisted just hurry up and get this over with she thought the entire encounter lasted just minutes. She remained frozen in fear on her bed, as the man left, she heard him walk through her kitchen, where he stopped just long enough to steal her purse. Daniel waited until

went quiet. She then grabbed her robe and ran from her home pounding on a neighbor's door in tears. The neighbour called again city police. This rape was the night in a string, similar unsolved sexual assault in ogden, dating back over two years. In each case, had entered a woman's home uninvited. Usually, while she slept this man, broken into Daniels home by crying out a window screen assumed life We check windows and doors. Shane minor was at that time. A detective for the ogden the police department window was locked pulled screen off the window pry the window open shameful, may. The rash of rapes and ogden had overwhelmed the loan detective assigned to handle sex crimes in the city. So then, I started going out to others in the detective division was work in those cases. Well, that's how shane minor was drawn into the search for a man. Some were calling the odd

city rapist. They were quite active at night out about in the city. The string of ten or so attacks had not gone unnoticed by press they would occur throughout the whole city of ogden. Wasn't a specific area ogden standard examiner an afternoon news preserving the city. Ended suburbs began reporting on the cases readers women, especially, were urged to lock their doors at night to not go out after dark alone. These would happen between Levin thirty midnight and four five o clock in the morning the idea of a serial rapist stocking the darkened streets. Put the entire community on edge people were calling ogden police with tips almost daily work, buddy would be spotted outside of a house. Wasn't the thoroughly a burglary or break in, but catching the rate. in the act had so far proved impossible. I remember it is time to where you get that the case in the morning for follow up and a guy.

Today we were getting hit regularly enough. We would work double shifts to go out of the city at night and stake the city out to see if they're going to hit again One of the ogden city rapist attacks had occurred just weeks after sherry, worn disappeared in october of eighty five, a cup more happens. Six months later, in march of eighty six, two more attacks came in may. followed by another in june. In one of those cases, a man the home of a woman whom all call caroline again. not her real name, line had fallen asleep on her couch. just an old war movie on tv, she'd, start Wait around three: thirty, a m to the sound of a click and the tv going dark. She had sat up. The shadowed figure of a man stood next to the tv

and he had darted across the room and grabbed her by the arms before she could get off the couch. I know you have two boys and what room they're in the man had said. Don't piss around, I do have a gun for a moment. Caroline She was being prank. She called a man by the name been telling him it wasn't for and to stop screwing around said his name wasn't. Then he had been watching her and knew she was alone. He asked how old she was caroline reacted in a jolt of panic, trying to twist herself free you'll, wake the kids he said, I'll blow their heads off, and so she stopped fighting. I'm not going to detail the further facts. This assault either, but they were largely similar in style and sequence. To what the other woman I mentioned, Daniele had experienced when it was over. The man instructed

line, not to tell anyone what he had done. said he knew her and her husband caroline had been separated for a few years and would return to kill them if she reported having been raped. She did it anyway calling police from neighbours home after the men exited. She told enough, sir, the rapist wanna thick coat like a ski park or military fatigue jacket. She hadn't heard a car, as he had left that morning, detectives found a boot print in a flower bed outside carolines front window, and so then we started checking out a lot of those areas where we had reported sexual assaults or break any type of rapes and seen the same shoe print so that kind of gave us one lead. Detective, believed the man had seen caroline asleep on her couch, while window peeping, he appeared to have entered her house through an unlocked back door.

caroline went through a medical exam that morning, what's often called a rape kit But a few days later she skip to follow up appointment with police. A detective called to ask why, according to a report, caroline said she no longer wanted to pursue the case. My experience was camp two men to it. you gotta, give them room Jane minor, told me. He encountered this kind of reluctance from victims of rape and sexual assault, often in his career yeah and just dislike you re victimize and then by Heaven. Him go through again as many times that keep one through, especially when a ghost court. I think a lot of people pick up on it. I see that they just don't want to go there. The ogden detectives did their best to build trust with the various women. They believe each might have important information that could help unmask the rapist's identity, but they could only get that information by

talking tough questions. They just been traumatized, so how do they know what's important? They can. I can give you the real basics, but sometimes you need more than that to find out what her evidence is. The detectives had to be direct, but also empathetic. The women had to show great courage rapists threats carried weight because the newspaper had recently told the story of a south ogden woman named Joyce Yost, who had been sexually assaulted, reported it to police and then disappeared. As the organ city, rapist investigation was ramping up in nineteen, eighty six police elsewhere in utah were beginning to hunt for a suspected. serial killer. There are a lot of missing girls,

of inside and outside a utah where it appears there might be foul play, suspect a string of unsolved and on the surface connected. Murders of young women had plagued the northern part of the state during the mid eighties. Evoking memories of serial killer too Bundy lundy still owes you tar. Ten years for kidnapping Bundy was this time in eighty six firmly in custody fighting to forestall his scheduled execution in the state of florida, Bundy has repeatedly claimed his innocence, and his trip to the drink chair. If it comes at all, maybe years away, so Bundy couldn't be responsible for these murders which all took place after his incarceration one of the most egregious had taken place on the streets of salt lake city, wherein If have eighty five, someone killed a fifty year. Old girl named Christine guy egos leah I goes does not get emotional when she tells of what happened to her daughter here that she was being badly

stabbed and tell the night broken. I couldn't stabber anymore and then shot twice in the head. Coroners recovered the bones we're thirty eight caliber round the type used in many police revolvers. just shy of a year later. Twenty year old woman starting a new job as a seven eleven clerk die, a similar death. It happened in the suburb of late in utah partway between salt lake and ogden Carla Maxwell body was discussed. by a regular customer. Looking for his morning cup of coffee around three forty five. He found the victim behind the sale. counter shot five times in the head and tat lightens police chiefs. Does the physical evidence I swim and won't speculate over a motive. He does say them. Weapon was probably a thirty eight caliber revolver the killer, didn't steal anything from the store, The only item missing was carla's purse, which police believed the killer had taken as a trophy,

communities are feeling the impact of this killing laden and ogden. Where Maxwell lived and went to school a few weeks later, people living in a residential neighbourhood of salt lake city heard a first gunfire late at night they came out. I do find a woman named LISA strong dead on the sidewalk We condemn it. cross the road and we see in the body of the lady augusta rode over there? soon as we went, sir, we said she was dead and weak back in the house and now than I meant to kind of place. Strong was it the five year old artist and model who had grown up in ogden. She had been walking home from work a bit after midnight. When a man had accosted her, she had tried to run, but the attacker had shot and killed her for no apparent reason. Police were covered, one of the slugs. It was a thirty eight, so the crime lab had bullets from all three killings. But listed analysis showed a single gun had fired them all the solid

Please now say the guy skilling is tied to two others: the murders of carla maxwell of layton and lisa strong in salt lake city salt lake police wondered if a ted Bundy style killer had once again found fertile hunting ground in their community. They formed a task force in june of eighty six in the hopes of capturing the killer. Christine guy ego says mom tv station care she felt frustrated Leah guy goes says it's unfortunate. It took the murders of two more women before a task force was born. Well, they haven't forgot her. I wouldn't allow that, because that guy needs to it's that he really needs to be stopped. How many more you know to ted Bundy's, but salt lake police? Captain o J peck didn't just limit his team to the three killings they had. by ballistics. He sent out a letter to police agencies in states all across the west, saying they were quote keenly interested in any all thomas sides involving female victims. They were looking for

smith and wesson or router thirty, eight or three fifty seven. Caliber handgun, because a three fifty seven can also fire thirty eight caliber rounds. Captain Peck told the press. They would examine any unsolved disappearances of and across the region. We're looking at those at great length. The task force put together a list of names they included. Samba should sound familiar to listeners of this podcast like Joyce, Yossi teresa grieves and Surely Warren too of the salt lake murders had taken place less than two miles from the credit union office. Where sheree had last benzene, which raised the question, could surely have died at the hands of a serial killer. The task force intended to find out The salt lake city police, invited Roy city detective jack bell, though eden

two gator on the shore. We warn case to contribute to their task force, but salt lake would run the show had no problem sitting on the sidelines. He didn't think. A serial killer had murdered sharing by that point. In the summer of eighty six jack's focus had shifted from series husband, chuck warren to her. Boyfriend, carry hartman juries seem to do everything he could make shocked me is sure, His disappearance very did a brilliant job for a while it banning jack's here since the day after sharif disappearance, repeating any rumour that seemed to cast chuck warren in a negative light, jack told Some of it had borne out like the claim chuck had nearly killed his first wife Alice when they split

I can allegedly beat als with a tire iron. I wish he hadn't looked so guilty to start with, but he did gradually. Though jack had come believe carry was manipulating him, leaning on the fact. had known each other in high school a bit earlier. Job mentioned. Having received a letter from an anonymous psychic, it had described woman being killed near a truck stop in the mountains. The writer had described red rock cliffs, like arsenals thinking. Was all these psychic stuff all of these pictures or coming from jerry. At that time I thought He for some reason. I like her to be found and not and pointed to him whether it was for her parents,

jack told me he had given the psychic letter to ogden police for forensic analysis, but never got it back leather to the fbi. and again news station ksl had also received a similar psychic letter ksl had and its letter over to jack who, in turn gave it to the salt lake city taskforce, along with a sample of carry hartman's handwriting for comparison have you been able to find that I tried to chase down both These letters by pestering sources and by filing a series of public records, requests. Ogden Sid. couldn't find anything related to jack bell psychic letter softly. City police, on the other hand, did find a copy The chaos l psychic letter. had been missing from the shore reborn case file for thirty five years. The letter includes hand drawn sketches. The first is of a war. From the shoulders up now to her out the words reddish hair

beautiful young mother, maroon import and apparent reference to sharif car, and Their page includes a drawing up a pine tree with the words through body over ledge, Body rolled well under a large evergreen body not able to be seen. I'm no handwriting expert, but I've seen a fair amount of carry hartman's writings. He tended to use block capitals or lower case cursive the psychic letter you Neither carry dots his eyes with circles, the psychic letter writer doesn't so. If the info nation in the psychic letter originated with carry its likely. Someone else did the actual writing my personal thanks to us city records officer, candy all read for digging deep and fine the missing letter. I cannot stress enough how important

records- are when looking into a case this old, because memories fade with time. Accidents along a girl you're, helping stir this all rain up below saw. So let me tell you about another paper record in the shrubbery worn case. to report private investigator Michael knew my rode up and gave to detective jack bell. new meyer listed chuck warren as his top suspect, along with one of chucks coworkers and a repo man who had worked at the same credit unions. Sri New mire did not include carry hartman as a suspect. in new myers eyes, carry with simply sharif boyfriend, Joe a like war, but here's what most interesting to me new. My road, sherry was last seen wearing a black john whites casual craft jacket size. Forty two. He went into detail describing

as waste linked with nylon, lining zip collar and snapped down front. That's amends coat the type of business attire cherie would have worn to the office. It would have absolutely swamped her. A two inch chest on a woman who stood just five foot five and weighed one hundred fifteen pounds would have looked ridiculous. Richard moss the last person known to have seen cherie alive, never mentioned sherry wearing a black man's coat, even if he had doubt he would have known the exact make and size know that detail could have only come from carry hartman private investigator, Michael new Meyer, was describing carries coat. yet another indication carry want even need people to think Sherry disappeared. While wearing his black parka for

detective jack bell told me, Michael new report. Skewed in carries favour, which isn't surprise in considering where new got god most of his information carry hired and carry guilty now pretty lines statement if you haven't picked up on it yet I'll just tell you, Jack didn't, have much respect were michael new meyer, probably because of what his report concluded hang with me here, because this is going to get complicated New my had seen a story in the salt lake tribute which quoted the mother of the first salt lake city, shooting victim christine guy egos, lay a guy. I go said she learned her daughter had told a convenience store clerk the night of her death. She going under cover to invest The murder of a friend of hers named philip kirby kirby, had in october of eighty four. His body surfaced in may of eighty five days before christine diagnosis, murder uncovered by the most. Equally of means a peg this morning escape

for much pan and an lds stake farm east of airplane character. Found her rooting in a pile of rocks, Johnny sheriffs deputies were called the scene. They found a body under the rocks. Detective berry suspects, murder. he said, is not likely. Someone would crawl under three feet of rock and die detectives quickly, pieced together what had happened they identified. The remains is turkey's and arrested the caretaker, brother, John Monson, on suspicion of murder sergeant burberry says the dead man and this aspect were formerly coworkers at assault salt lake dealership parts department. We believe that the two individuals were involved in some type of the theft ring and slowly kirby and monson had worked for wag staff. Toil oda the same dealership where she was supposed to meet her estranged husband on the afternoon of her disappearance official suspect. The two were using the church, farmers, a hiding place for stolen property, the parrot

billing otto parts to the dealership, selling them on the side and pocketing the profit. Kirby had developed cold feet and wanted out Monson would later admit killing kirby to keep him from squealing again. Christine diagnosis death had come just ten days after the discovery of philip corbies remains Her mom lay a guy. Ngos came to believe her daughter might have uncovered more about the wax staff. Toyota theft ring and gotten hers. Killed in the process. Hartman's private investigator Michael new mike adopted this theory as his own, replacing surely warren for christine diagonals. Maybe new mire suggested sure he had stumbled into a criminal conspiracy. She wasn't supposed to know about. I asked jack bell of the theory of registered with him at the time. No, I didn't know wired register. I mean

register, but he's a flake michael new Meyer is no longer alive. I'm unable confirm whether he was or was not a flake, but his report did little to assist in the search for sherry it was basically carry driver, governs traxler dick to give them to vote. There's a place on the campus of wieber state university on the east side of ogden, where, if you have the right set of key you can unlock the door that takes you into this. Ray underbelly of a building call the swenson gymnasia you ve done your head under run along the ceiling. You walk back to a space where gets of the gems swimming pool the pumps drains and pipes hiss and grumble

Endless work rarely witnessed by anyone. It's in unconventional place to record sound for a podcast, but I've I you down here to meet a woman named jamie schmaltz. I should they tell you how I realized, who. harry hartman was Jimmy, had spent her early twenties, working as a hostess and cocktail waitress at hotel bar in ogden called the electric alley. It was one of carry hartman's hans. I was standing there one night and he walked up to me and remember what he said, but I remembered looking at him and then him. I think he asked me my name and I kept looking at him and it was like, I know the sky from somewhere. He looks really familiar. and so finally it dawned on me. I was like you know my mom My mom was a hairdresser, so

come to find out. She cut his hair. Jimmy told me, Kerry had tried to flirt with her, but I didn't really pay attention to that stuff. I mean I was there doing my job, you know, some time later, she mentioned having run into carry to her mom. I remember her seen something like just careful with him- and I was like ok But I didn't really think much of it. He soon and I'll take. I a few years went by Jamie quit her job at the electric alley and went to school in rolling weaver state college. and one day I walk into my class in there here's terry hartman anyway nearly starts talking to me, and I don't remember has this been thirty. Shippers but he says: hey did you know, there's a. A window in the swimming pool, the aquatic centre and What do you mean site? Will there's a wind,

You can see people swimming- this was true, not there anymore, but the gym swimming what did once have a viewing window below the water level? I'm not sure what it was for. Whatever the reason access to the window was buried in the bowels of the building, not just any one could get down there. I have mentioned this before, but now its relevant repeat, carry worked for the college running the steam boilers and maintaining the pipes that snake through tunnels albany campus campus. He had the keys, carry asked jamie to come with him to see the swimming pool window site out. They headed over to the gym care. open that locked door and assured jamie inside. So we go in there and its underground in this basement and we clear and the very back to assist him- and I

we lack the way in the very back and then there's this window. And yes, I see Anybody can watch you at any time. And they could see what you're doing in the swimming slake. Ok, I didn't really like I don't know if I was supposed to a certain reaction, but I just thought it was kinda strange and I think I may have said like that's gonna creepy We can tell me why she'd agreed to go with carry alone to this secluded spot. She thought maybe he had said something about being a cop. She couldn't remember Jamie admits she had been naive, then, and hadn't questioned kerry's motives. The way she does now. What was the purpose of taking me like? What like did he get off and Jamie told me Kerry? Didn't try anything that day,

under the pool she thinks she knows why if he tried to do anything once I got away, I know him once I got away that presumes a lot. If Jamie had screamed, no one would have heard her over the noise, but clearly that It's not what happened. She walked back out into the sunlight perfectly safe. Looking back now, she's not sure how she got something out of it me agreeing to go there. While reading what Jamie told me. I came across an article from may of eighty six in the archives of wieber states student newspaper, the signpost it said, campus police received reports from several women who had come out. the shower the jim and found a man sitting in the women's locker room watching them. It went on to say, quote policeman This is the same man who watches swimmers in the swenson Jim pool from a win.

Below water level, police chief. We can did he said the man is thought to masturbate while watching the swimmers. I couldn't find any follow up stories about this swimming pool voyage, so I dont know if he was ever identified or arrested. I'm home one night and I get this phone call. This man says I I'm doing a survey on ladies lodger hand, women's apparel can help me out here in my mind. I know I had had some call before, and so I thought I find him before. Okay I'll, do it this time. So he just starts asking me questions and he said: okay, so we're going to talk about ladies' underwear. Do you like breaks farm, wear bikinis? What do you wear elsewhere? I was like well depends on what I'm wearing and he was like

what do you sleep there? when I'm nice. Ok, he's start asking questions like what kind of nylons did lie. Remember the other questions and tell he said why? Don't you tell me what you're breasts alike? Are they firm not affirm our zackie, an oversight that so little personal? Don't you think, and he just have this combat like quick and so it seemed rejects. I answered him and then he said well, what about your area? Allah is decisive, like a dime size of a nickel or size. quarter, and I said What does that have to do with ladies lingerie, and he was just like we'd like to find out what women like that that the third and then like, I said I got be quiet because I thought is he knows to reading like I never heard anything similar. Later. In the conversation I oughta sudden, I realise this

slight carry hartman, think I may have even said to him. Your voice sounds familiar, but I remember what he sat jamie and how to know she hung up on the man after it up the phone I felt like I just response. I was really a comfortable. I was scared. But also angry she picked up her phone book, look carry hartman's, name and dialed is number his line. Was busy Jamie forgot This detail when we spoke, but I asked her memory showing her a report written by an organ police detective named chris Zimmermann, Now that he's just I did that I think that that right, it's like you We get me like you know. Maybe we met zimmermann before he was the ogden data

who had issued a prank parking ticket to president ronald reagan. Limousine Jamie told me she first met Zimmermann after a man had groped her on campus. Some time before this whole encounter with carry hartman Zimmermann had walked her through filing a report. In that case, because creed had given me his card and he was a detective for often city. I felt comfortable So I call them- and I was like- I hope you don't I wish I said, but I swear to god. I just got an upswing phone call from carry hartman it. He was really. I said he how, like I'm. I'm The tariff zimmermann was among the detectives working the Ogden city rapist investigation. The rapist had struck again just days before. In that case a woman had described waking around three. I am to the sound of noise in her living room

if you done to investigate and found a strange man there. He had come in through a window. She'd tried to fight to push him out of the house, make it easy for me. He had said I have a gun. If you don't cooperate, I'll hurt you and your baby she had stopped fighting but warned the man her husband might come home soon. He had told her. That was a lie. He knew she was divorced or separated. I've been watching you for quite a while. He had said. I know where you shop. I know where you work. I know who your parents are. He had forced her back into her bedroom. She had no did an odour. He smelled greasy as if he had been working around a machine or engine of some time. She had asked the man who he was he replied, he was a cop would know if she called the police and would come back to kill her and her baby. If she did, he gave.

vice on how to better secure her windows and doors told her not to worry, because she wouldn't get pregnant, then ass. He was leaving offered to send her money in the mail Zimmermann, the detective, had gone on the news the next day and described this modus operandi. The only thing that we can come up with on that as there is a possibility that, the women around town gets to no one gets no information about them and then jimmy schmaltz. Had seen detective zimmermann on tv talking about the rape cases, she told him on the phone she felt afraid because she fit the profile of the rape victims single in her twenties, with the child so he's ok, Are you saying by lock your door in Obama? She asked if there was a connection between the rapists and carry her

as a lingerie survey phone call. Could the call be a prelude to an attack? He knew he claims. There's no doubt by MIKE Zimmerman assured her. There was no connection that he knew of that was about to change, the ogden city, rapist attacked. He had another woman on October twentieth, nineteen, eighty six, these We have many of the same hallmarks demand the women's home, as she slept, told hurry, a police officer claimed to have didn't show a gun and threatened to kill the one. and her children at she didn't cooperate, Ogden policed. Active, shane minor and his colleagues had been trying for months to find a common thread, the risk Nevertheless, we had gone half day time of currents and the location started, compile those men look

let them all on how the person got in kind of different thing. Happen once they were inside and trying to get some jest for dealing with the same person or for them with more than one person their lists included these commonalities, the victims all single or separated with small children. The attacker used a quote: minimum amount of force. He sometimes Smelled of greece often still purses and would occur Finally, mention police department connections tat gives also saw similarities in the specifics of the sex acts, the telephone, I came up here was around to those who did not. Those were the same that person played into the breakin rapes had been going on that changed quantity. Chris Zimmermann received a tape at the end of october. He wrote a report about but kept the woman anonymous and today I dont know her identity. woman, told Zimmermann she believed carry hartman could be the in city rapist. She

personal knowledge they carry had for you years made obscene lingerie survey phone calls. She also said, carry lived just up the street from where one of the rapes it occurred, Zimmermann's started digging. New, carry had been in the army and police reserve in speaking with officers, bout hartman? They stated he liked to show his badge and tell people he was a cop that comes from port Zimmermann later filed in the case Zimmermann declined my record for an interview. So your hearing his words, read by a voice actor due to the fact that harden was friend to some officers. This was kept is quite as possible and it was decided. No supplementary reports would be written until absolutely needed. All records were kept by me. in note for zimmermann learned of carries nineteen. Seventy one arrest for making harassing telephone calls to heidi pause knee it is high. I can't remember exactly hartman start

the call with a lingerie sir. He read of how you tried to lure heidi up the canyon, to a campground, mere cauzee reservoirs, using a threat of bodily harm to her husband. He would say: try to call anybody wouldn't be healthy for my husband, because he do seventeen mustang heidi it don't carry mercy after his arrest in the canyon. She just wanted him to get some help, but that hadn't happened. He was partly. Justice poppy zimmermann was aware of carries connection tertiary war, so he called role city police, detective, jack bell. They began to look at the whole arc of carries behaviour saw a clear escalation from that encounter with heidi in nineteen seventy one to where they then stood fifteen years later arising as toys

they talked about how the rapist had sometimes claimed to be a cop. Some reserves, gallo badge, happy thought they were real place. Zimmermann road carry had been booted from the reserve after flashing his badge to get out of a ticket that will death Where did you bone still? This differed from the official account that carry had resigned, He had taken a job out of state, it seems likely that had been a convenient excuse way of getting carry out of the reserve without unnecessary embarrassed. Zimmermann spent several days contacting each of the rape victims again asking it He had received lingerie survey phone calls before the attacks several had. one told him not only had she received the call she had. Also. At the weber state Jim, where she taught gymnastics hours before being attacked at her home Zimmermann found other links between carry some of the women. One recognised carries photo because he was friends with her husband,

another- was a family friend to the hartman's, Yet another lived in the same apartment complex as one of carries, former girlfriends zimmer, connected harp and two for victims. Former ogden police, detective shane minor, told me that represented only about a quarter of the rapes on the detectives lists, they needed stronger evidence. So Zimmermann took his findings to the we were county attorney. He asked the state court for permission to put what's known as a pen register on carries phone, it would record the number of every outgoing call. The pen register became active toward the end of november nineteen. Eighty six over the next five weeks. It logged more than nineteen hundred outcome

in calls from Kerry's phone. These were placed on a computer print out. The approximately two hundred of the calls were to friends or acquaintances. These are Zimmerman's words from a report read by a voice actor. The others were picked at random, going through the phone book and picking last names with girls, first names or first name listed as initials only I did. contact several of the people called and they had received the lingerie survey. Zimmermann noticed. One number appeared multiple times. He called it and a woman answered explain who he was and asked. If she had received a luxury survey call she said. No, she knew who made them Zimmermann had in. Certainly called carries second wife Becky. I shared a bit of her story with you. In episode, one zimmermann's say Becky recalled carry making obscene phone calls to random women while they were married. She mention carried out of a sector me discards

means attention because it potentially explained why the rapist had told one of the women not to worry about getting pregnant Becky said carried been infatuated with guns and owned. Both three fifty seven and thirty eight caliber revolvers guns. Cape of firing the rounds used in the three unsolved murders under investigation by the salt lake city taskforce and Becky's knew how but told Zimmermann, carry was infatuated with TED Bundy. Yeah I have one upon the strap and other that's Bundy's voice in a phone call. the rapporteur in nineteen. Seventy nine deny and he had ever killed. Anyone Becky's husband, told detectives and carry had even made his sons sit and watch tv special about Bundy, I can say for sure, based on the timeframe. It's possible show was made for tv movie called the deliberate stranger ted Bundy is being played by saint elsewhere, star our cars,

There's a whole lot of psychiatrist in this country who are still trying to figure out what makes them tick too, is a complex person. You know, ogden police began to suspect the ogden city. Rapist might also have studied the work of ted Indeed, and sometimes I don't really try to think things through. They are willing to convenient alternative and can be an alternative to me. Earlier in this episode, I told you about a woman, I'm calling Daniel She was among the many women whom the organ city rapist had attacked. Ogden police had closed her case without an arrest due to a lack of weeds but detective chris Zimmermann real. ablishn contact with Daniel again in november of eighty six about half,

you're following her assault. She told him she had put it out of her mind and tried to move on with her life Zimmermann told daniele. He needed her help. He showed her a spread of six pictures of men's faces, carry hartman's picture, sat among them, Daniele, couldn't pimps, her attacker from those photos it had been too dark. She had been able to see well without her contacts, and he had told her not to look at him. She just couldn't be certain what he like I've seen one of them before she had said bud midst. Nothing Zimmermann asked her to explain any little It could help. She stated that she was a barber and she had gone to bob's sewing machine a few weeks prior to her attack to have her scissors sharpened. This again comes.

A report detective chris Zimmermann wrote in the store. There was a white male working there and another white male standing there talking to him the person who is standing. There was the person in the picture she had picked. This was carry hartman Bob's sewing machine was the shop where carries friend and fellow former ogden police reserve officer Dave more worked. There is discussion about whether she was single were married, where she caught hair and other personal information. She gave her name and addressed to them for the scissors receipt hartman was standing right there when she gave the address and name the man who had broken into Daniels home at awoken her by whispering her name into her here. She couldn't identify the suspect by picture, but she was sure she heard his voice again. She would know him because his voice was very distinctive care

herman had started a new job in the summer of eighty six, a few months after the attack on Daniel, he still worked, for we were state college, during the day, but now tended bar at night at a place called the galleon and yell and a friend went to the galleon one night in march of eighty seven, just a year on from the night of her race as they sat and socialized sipping. Their drinks. A man came on the intercom. It was the bartender a jew shot through Danielle. She recognized the voice. It was the same as the man who had raped her carry hartman, on the next episode of cold I'd, never heard surely upset before she would see things like. How could you be with someone else?

recording your body. How come Nobody knows that boys. I don't understand. if you have information about the disappearance of sherry, worn. Now is the time to share it. You can Reach me by e mail, cold at chaos, albert com or contact the Roy city police department at eight zero one, seven, seven for one zero, six, three, I also want you to know. If you ve, experienced abuse sexual violence you're not alone. There are trained experts ready listen and help in the union, it states survivors of rape and sexual assault- can connect to free resources through the rape of you and incest national network at or a I n n dot org, if you, or someone you know is experiencing domestic abuse in any form you can reach the national domestic violence hotline at the hotline. Dot org cold is a production of chaos.

pod and wondering in association with workhouse media cold is researched, written and hosted by me dave kali. Audio production and sound designed by Ben tebrick, Aaron mason sing and mastering by Ben key Michael bond miller? imposed our main theme with additional at this season by Alison layton brown edition. The voices in this episode provided by John green and Kevin lurid my purse, thanks to our editorial team, Amy Donaldson, and race, Martin ryan, meeks, Becky, bruce cura, pheromone colleagues, however soon josh, Tilton and external for amazon, music and wondering manner producer canvas men, rica's, wren, producer clare chambers, senior producer, lizzie basket and executive. producer morgan jones, special thanks to kill bitter

and allison for mule and with workhouse media executive producers, Paul Anderson and nick panella, an forecastle, podcast executive producer. Cheryl wars for pictures and more go to our website. The cold, podcast, dot com and fall was on social at the cold podcast. Most of all, thank you for listening, hey, prime members you can binge every episode of cold ad free on amazon, music download amazon, music app today you can listen ad free with one replace in apple pod, casts before you go. Tell us about yourself by completing a short. They are wondering dotcom, slash survey,