Hey. Prime members. You can binge all ten episodes of cold ad free on amazon, music download the app today. This he's in of the cold podcast includes descriptions of rape, sexual assault, murder and domestic violence. Please take care and listening. The heidi. Poisoning rolled over in bed reaching through the dark for the telephone. I was getting a phone call, probably midnight. She lifted the receiver to her ear and set a tentative hello. There Changed by her distinct german accent voice, the phone said that he wanted to talk to me voice belonged to a man hindered used himself and said he was conducting a survey, he wanted to ask or a few questions like

what kind of luxury anywhere and are you a good and bad, as everyone says? Who are you I scored on? Would you like me, hang up? parties husband, John poisoning, stirred next to her in transit That message had almost some guy wants to meet me. I some idiot Because I used to get a lot of those phone calls, especially when you work in the bar. You know people calling you raising heavy heart. He may have had her share of creeps calling in the past, but she would soon learned this. Guy was diff, persistent dangerous, it was the spring of nineteen. Seventy one party was a thirty six year old mother of two. She by no means a pushover.

I have been in situations where I had to defend myself, pretty good, I'm sorry to be in that situation many times. Even when I was a child. How do you live story could fill an entire podcast on its own, but we'll do the abbreviated version she'd been born near the border of germany and poland in nineteen thirty five. he told me your mother had fled and abusive marriage when heidi was just a few years old, taking the berlin, but dogma carried them into the heart of nazi germany. During the second world war, russian Andrews its third year with soviet armies, pounding the knots he's from the older heidi told me hitler's their mocked had conscripted her father and sent him to the eastern front. Pay the price for this much price was more than I have been a nazi soldier. hi these father counted among those dead, heidi survived in the for years. Escaped soviet control, the east germany to the west, where she

met and married her first husband, a young, can soldier they had two children together in nineteen. Fifty eight chinese first husband brought his little family stateside to his native home of Provo utah about forty miles south of utah's capital, salt lake city. This a huge adjustment for heidi. At the time she spoke little English had no friends or family in america and belong to the church of Jesus Christ of latter day saints commonly known as the mormons she observe that bates prohibitions on coffee or alcohol, and joked about this when we sat to talk by taking steps from a little bottle, Wine by mrs Not this early in the day heidi marriage to the soldier fell apart. She soon found herself divorced in exile in an unfamiliar country. She moved City called Ogden about forty miles north of salt lake city ogden was a railroad town with a rush,

and tumble history. Gambling halls brothels and saloons used to line the street to its train station. The cassini, in cat houses are long gone but His bars remain heidi work is a waitress at one of those bars in the sixties. I had some vacations working in the bar. Where does made a pass and in fact use trying to fishermen. The cornered tried to kiss me there is knows, leading kiss me. If I don't want him to shame and befriended other german experts in ogden. One introduced heidi to a local business. Man named John Poznan, John was himself the son of german immigrants, he'd inherited his father's business. The Ogden optical company and worked as an optician He also inherited his father's nineteen. Fifty five ford. Under bird convertible cushy impressed me with his son.

John and heidi married. She, took his last name, the one she still keeps proudly today, pausing heidi showed me pictures This is not a good picture of me and laughing picture. Come look at us basing beauties johnny how'd. He paused mean moved to a little mountain town called huntsville a few years into their marriage. They would take frequent drives in their jeep, exploring the surrounding forest on one such trip. They encountered a litter of baby bob cats separated from their mother, Heidi decided to adopt one of little carnivores. I named Charlie they told me out eagle, equal job on top of the earth your reader and I would get some yarn unit notes, throw it up at it. Neat pod and I catch it. The bobcat group, Becoming so large, it would stretch out across the dashboard johns thunderbird when heidi took it out around town, that good, the drive in fire milkshake

ice cream or something he did, the liquid I'd get a. I tell you to give you a sense of who heidi poisoning was a no nonsense, survivor with a soft spot for those in need, when she received that odd phone call from a guy asking about her lingerie laid one in nineteen, seventy one. Now that you know my background a little bit better now. You understand why I could handle it like that. It's important! understand because of what happened next, the man called her again, you seem to know my kids. He seemed to know that I had a mustang in poznan had by that time, traded in his thunderbird for a sixty six mustang I told heidi the mustang's brakes might suddenly quit working she didn't agree to meet him. Sawdust I'll, try and I can remember what I said, because others pretty upset at that time- and this is Don't have this phone tray stop penetration because innocent

gonna be healthy for you for your kids. so I knew that he knew us really well in that rudy made me mad In fact, right now, my mouse is dry from thinking about that you now heidi put the collar off playing for time. He called yet again on Tuesday june first nineteen, seventy one and repeated his demand telling heidi he had had his eye on her for at least three years. He mentioned having seen heard the wieber club. A fancy social spot in ogden to go to the river club quite often for dinner cocktails, and things like that. Whenever there was a party, that's where everybody met how'd. He again managed to get off the phone without committing to anything, but it was cool. You're, the collar did not intend to leave her alone so heidi told her husband, John about the collar and his threats. John,

I talked to a neighbor of theirs, a sheriff's deputy named, however bailey who encouraged the pas needs to make a formal report. They did. I know, because by have a copy of it, another thing, John, even talk to the sheriff down an ogden. They had the plan, and the man called again. The sheriff wanted heidi to answer ass soon ass ever. You need to do is just go along with it and make an appointment with a date. I said: ok, the collar phone heidi again, a final time on Thursday june third, the phone was ringing like ten o clock in the morning. Nieces. who still gonna meet each other nice it near. Let's do it Well, how come you change your mind now trying be early com. When collected unanimous and well, you must hopefully interested in me, and I said now, I'm interested in you

Is it well I'll meet you someplace as it? You can't right now, because I'm on my way to lunch, with my girlfriends. This was a lie meant to buy time, john into sheriff. Bullshit. You know have some time to set up to catch him, the colors just saturday and I said Noah begun by, then I'm I'm leaving for europe. This was also alai, heidi said, would have to be friday. Me alright I'll see you tomorrow, The man told heidi where to go just out of huntsville following the south fork of the Ogden river to a campground called meadows below awaken the mountains, called cauzee reservoirs, easily gonna be driving

probably the jeep, and he said I was here a quarter to ten who should arrive. Heidi Poznan had a date. This is called season. Three episode, one every escalates. From chaos. L podcast, I'm dave, kali. Season, one of this pod cast told the story of susan Powell her marriage to hush powell and the abuse She suffered at the hands of her husband and father in law of me, covering all my basis, making sure that if something happens to me or my family are all of us that our assets are documented, we may never know all the details, but I feel they ve been saying. Susan died in an act of domestic violence

body- has never been found season. Two, focused on the disappearance of Joyce used, a man Joyce had never met, followed her home one night abducted, her and raped her Joyce reported the crime Please clarify the road he whispered so tell me if I screamed or said anything that germany open. Then the man who raped her, returned and killed her to keep her from testifying. Her body has also never been found. two stories, one about domestic abuse in all its subtle insidious forms the other bout, sexual violence and the ways the criminal justice system often fails to protect survivors who report to crimes with very different motives, but the same result. Women who were disappeared by men. This,

you're, going to see those two topics: wind together, as we examined a truly unsolved case the appearance of a woman named Sherry Warren. This is where you should hear a clip of sherry accepts no recordings of her exist. As far as I know, I asked her emily if they had any old home movies, they didn't no journals or letters either. This season, sherry warns voice will remain conspicuously absent It's the frustrating truth of so many missing persons cases the victims who we most want to hear from or by the very nature of what happened to them, unable to speak member of them fade overtime and tell even their closest friends can only provide impressions of the people they were. sure he was born at hill air force base, just south of ogden utah in nineteen sixty. She was the second

four kids in her family, her parents were ed and mary Sorenson ed served as a master sergeant in the air force during the these. That job took him to know us air force base in las vegas nevada and to vietnam. He was if the bronze star metal for meritorious conduct, ed's twenty years in the service, then nineteen seventy two. He became a civilian employee of the air force. He His family settled in the town of Roy just outside Utah's hilaire, for space ship ray attended school in Roy. She was a bright student continuously on the honourable, her name, appeared in the local newspaper when she placed in science, fair and foreign language competitions. strong work ethic probably came from watching her parents when she was in high school, her dad enrolled in college while still working full time, ed saved in associates degree. The same year, Sri graduated from high school, not to

done sharif. Mom Mary helped support the family by working at a drapery company. Sri grew up is part of an industrious, honest family. We'll get back to sharing a bit, but for the moment we need to turn our attention to heidi poisoning, the woman who had received that Lingerie survey phone call reigned result over the canyon of the south fork of the organ river. It pattern on it. and this top of heidi poisonings g, she drove up utah state highway. Thirty, nine on the more Friday june. Fourth, nineteen, seventy one she was norway to meet the strange man who had four weeks been calling her demanding they go on a date. I can't see it, but doing airports She turned right off the highway. The entrance to the meadows campground crossly your bridge over the river, barely more than a creek really and stopped next

camper trailer on the far side, a pair of sheriffs deputies dresses, fishermen stepped out to greet her So what should I do- and he said just pull across the street and then the jeep partner likes the sideways. You know what I mean as heidi is describing this to me decades later, she's using her hands to show the positions of her jeep in the trailer how the dip he's told her to park next. To them to reverse out after the collar arrived and passed by her position to block him from getting back across the bridge to the road. She was the cheese on the mouse trap. make sure when he comes up again, Five make sure that he's the right person. Miles down. The can back in the

erection of huntsville, her husband, John Poznan, waited at another campground called magpie. The sheriff was with him, along with the deputy, how verbally they all watched the highway as the clock ticked toward the time for heidi's date to arrive a little after ten am a red and white half ton, pickup truck passed magpie going up the canyon toward meadows. John poznan saw a logo printed on the truck's door and agenda. He was driving his dad's business truck and it said hartman plumbing and when digital past magpie Joseph hear me We knew it was hard. Plumbing and heating belonged to a man named bill, hartman John new bill. They had gone off to other at the ogden dolphin country club bill was also a fellow member of the wieber club. The call had told Heidi he had seen her at the weber

As for John, he recognized the man at the wheel of the pickup as bill Hartmann's oldest son carrie hardman, the sheriff tried to radio the two undercover deputies who were with heidi at meadows to let them know that the caller would soon reach them, but the radio didn't work in the narrow canyon. Heidi had no idea who the young man in the pickup truck was when he turned off the highway drove across the bridge and stopped next to her g, because I never paid any attention to him before. I didn't notice him before the young man rolled down his window, heidi saw he had brown hair green eyes and appeared clean tut like a cop or military man, kind of forget it is high. I can remember exactly in and then I said, you pick on an old lady like me, and he made some remarks. Sexier prettier, something you know.

you're, not an old lady. At this point the whole caution, but I was way older than he was. I already had kids, you know teenagers So yeah I was an old lady. Carry hartman was too me too. To hide is thirty. Six he had experienced the ravages of the second world war, as heidi had been many young american men of his generation carried served overseas during the vietnam war. I have a copy carries resume from years later in which he described being stationed at a fuel depot in the port city of denying in sixty nine care. wrote in the navy. He had become quote very efficient in the handling of small arms and explosives. Any kepler, at the trailer was getting a little nervous and he said I'm gonna just pull up there. Why don't you follow me up there? Buy up their countrymen farther into the campground behind a line of tat he's out of sight of the road he drove past her up around the bend

How'd he put her deepen, reverse pulled out in block the narrow road, just as the deputies had instructed. She didn't from the jeep and rushed into the safety of their trailer. The deputies told her to stay. Put then went to stand next to the jeep, heidi port herself, a cup of coffee with shaking hands She listened for the sound of the pick up. We had returned For a few minutes, heidi picked out the window is the deputies pulled? Carry the truck and placed him under arrest. They frisked him finding a small knife in his pocket. Then they tried to call their backup down at the magpie campground. Only today, over there. Radios didn't work in the canyon either, so the deputies piled into carries, truck and drove it and im down the canyon to meet with the sheriff I stated because I was a nervous had kids I'd had my coffee and then I got in the no drove down and they were already gone. Sir

Only later did heidi learn from her husband John. What had happened when Harriet arrived in handcuffs at magpie john, she told me had turned to the sheriff his black like the smack. Even the mouse thesis welcomes. Look the other way They have already out a job touched. You and He was embarrass. You look down and uses a region. the gun and shoot me really here. He said that because he was embarrassed. He was ashamed, on poznan. Had punched carry hartman in the face, while the sheriff his deputies. Looked the other way let's just say this- wasn't legal, the deputies then taken carried to the weber county jail in Ogden, where they had booked him on suspicion of making threatening phone calls a minor me demeanor charge that didn't quite match the gravity of the whole situation. Harry provided a hand, written statement admitting to what had happened.

I the lady and said. Would you meet me at a time place if not somehow, murmured come to your husband's car and possibly him That's not carries voice, but they are his words read by a voice actor even today, heidi down, place. The seriousness of what happened. because he really hadn't done anything other than met me, but here to tell you. There was something. much more ominous behind those phone calls thing that makes hyades mouse go dry and her hands fidget when she really stops to think about it. What do you think his intentions were that a product tat make a pass at me? my private after knock him on his back a private unable to, but when he had a knife- and it would not be too good Heidi told me, your husband, John went to confront, carries dad bill hartman following carries arrest, john right where to look at the gulf war,

and he didn't even come right away off the golf course they still finished his game really. So to have known things, but his I'm already them both on name and bill hartman or deceased, so ion have heidi account of what she says. John told her I went there and said he. We need to talk to you but your son- and he said to John the hell. Did he do now John explained, harry's lingerie survey phone call, how he pressured heidi into a meeting by using threats then showed up at the camp ground with a weapon. Are you gonna press charges and John told me? He said Well, she gave him some help no it's your son, you get some help, then I won't press charges because you know everybody deserves right heidi and John thought carry harmon, just a kid who had made a mistake, Johns had sent a message. They thought they wanted to back down message up with a show of mercy. He didn't know that he was

doing it with other people too. You have no idea, carry to court. A few days later, he had a I'm going for him in the eyes of the judge, his parents. For well known in the community and were church going. People harry, had no criminal history and was still in the naval reserve and the judge could only sentence carry for what he had done, not what he might have done had police out outsmarted him. What could have happened? That's depart That is a dangerous situation currently happening carry received a slap on the wrist six months, probation, heidi, didn't fall. What happened to carry after that? Shit moved on with her life. That doesn't mean that I was not nervous. Scared, I'm still right now. My mouth is dry. So it still must be hanging on somehow a trauma. That's lingered for more than fifty

here's this season isn't about heidi poisoning? As I said earlier, it's about the disappear of Sherry Warren but there's a reason we're starting with heidi. Instead of sherry, it's because carry hartman them anne who tried to lure heidi up that canyon. Would you, later meet befriend and will surely Warren carry Man isn't the only suspect, injuries, eventual disappearance, she hadn't estranged, and who will meet soon enough, but I want to keep your eye on carry so you can see how he gained inside access to this unsolved called case homicide investigation and steered it through its first days and weeks along the way, we're going to see how sherry Warren first crossed paths with carry hold because from here anything escalates carry hartman.

I spent the rest of nineteen. Seventy one on probation for making those threatening lingerie survey phone calls to heidi poznan, while on beijing, carry proposed to a young woman, her parents and so the engagement in the newspaper, but that was premature, wedding didn't happen because carries bride to be called it off. three weeks later. One of carries friends set him up with another young woman. I'll call her clare I'm not using her real name in order to protect her privacy. Carrion clare dated four a year. Clare. home life during that time was turbulent. She and her dad clashed physically. The gods so bad clare moved out of her parents home. She felt right And carries waiting arms moving in with him their relationship turned sexual and carry proposed marriage soon. After that three months into the engagement carried, kicked clear out of the apartment he had chain his mind he told her to leave the ring he had given her. She refused so

when she came back a few days later to get her stuff Harry, allegedly grabbed her by the arm, twisted it behind her back wrenched. The ring from her finger and tossed her to the ground clare had grown up a christian and was taught sex for marriage was a sin. She had violated those beliefs with carry so when he asked her off she'd felt, embarrassed and damaged, She would later tell a detective carried told her. No one would want her clarid felt she couldn't returned to her parents. a friend invited her to start over by moving to california. So that's what she did. no sooner had she left Ogden, then carry turned on the charm Claire would later say, carried somehow found her phone number in san francisco and started. barring her with flowery calls and messages He said he wanted her back. He told her returned to utah. She accept.

His apologies and in the summer of nineteen, seventy three carry and clare became man and wife Claire would later tell police she'd married carry out of quote pure guilt because he had gone against everything she had been taught by living with a man out of wedlock. She'd believed those untruths carried planted in her head, No one else would want her carry took clare to las vegas for their honeymoon, but blue, all their money. Gambling a week or claire, allegedly caught carry in bed with another woman, not long after carry hosted a dinner party at their apartment. Clare didn't know, by the party until she arrived home from work. She told an investigator. She had found her husband naked in the bathroom with some of his guests. Claire, sometimes overheard, her husband making phone calls. He'd say he was from some company doing a survey then star. asking the women he called about the types of underwear they liked

If the women remained on the line, carry would turn the questions. Sexual clare. claimed to have one's been on the line when carry a dial the twelve year old girl and made it split comments about his own body. The girl hung up on him. clear, told carrie. She wanted a divorce just ten months into their marriage, He'd allegedly responded by weeping over a banister and smacking her in the face clare later an investigator the blow landed with such force. It knocked out a tooth clare, carried, been dragged her to their bedroom and pull the three fifty seven magnum revolver from his dresser drawer, putting the gun to his own head, I'm a bad person, I'm no good Don't deserve to live Claire later described, carriers saying she said, carried for her finger under the trigger telling her he'd make it so she would spend the rest of her life in prison for killing him. She'd beg

him to stop promising to help him to talk out their problems. Carry at last relented. A few days later clear, had carry served with a restraining order. She, All the carries mom donna hartman to tell her All her son had done Donna reportedly replied o honey. I should have to you a long time ago the separation, did not go smoothly. Clare, when to carry at least once before, realising she needed a plan if she intended to escape, she had carry served with divorce papers. While he was at work, she then went to the police officers stood by his clare kicked, carry out of their place. She told him if he, ever returned she would kill him. carry bounced around a bit for the next year. He bought

for a while at the home of a friend, a guy named Alan Fred, John most everyone just called him fred johns. So that's how I shall refer to him too for it had a job working security for a vast cattle ranch called desert, land and livestock. With two Thousand acres does land and livestock is the states largest ranch desert occupies a giant stretch of the mountains between ogden, utah and Evanston wyoming, its home to some of the asked elk hunting ground in the western united states. Deserts Ocean has been to sell hunting permits, one hundred and twenty seven this year, ranging prize from two hundred to five thousand dollars. Freds job was to trespassers out of desert during the Elk season, preserving those animals for the ranches paying clients carry her men didn't remain roommates with Fred johns. Very long fred ended up having to kick carry out of his house. After carry proposition, freds wife put a little mental book,

mark here, because Fred Johns will play a major role later in our story. In the summer of seventy five carry met. A woman named Becky I'm not using her full name in order to protect our privacy, carry took Becky out one time and the date didn't go anywhere. Six months later, Becky receive an unsolicited obscene phone call. She thought the ways of the male collar sounded familiar and asked if he was carry hartman. He said yes and The dirty phone call was only a prank. I don't know how but carry segue that obscene phone call into another date with Becky. They met and he turned on the child care in Becky began dating more seriously at the start of seventy six and were met by that september, went to las vegas on their wedding night. Just carry had with his first wife, but this time carry surprise.

His new bride by allegedly inviting a sex work or to their hotel room. Becky felt more five to learn her new husband wanted to have a threesome on their honeymoon. Becky would later describe multiple instances of physical abuse during her years with carry She told an investigator carry would become so angry. He had knocked her unconscious it always seem apologetic afterward, sending her flowers She started seeing a psychologist thinking. Something was wrong with her. It took time, but Becky came to realize the problem wasn't with her. It was with her husband Carry hartman was a plumber by trade. I fit stainless pipe carbon steel, pipe plastic, pipe all pipe bidding under strict osha standards that again comes from, carries own resume. He had never finished college, but he possessed a quick mind and a capacity for meticulous

asks his time in the navy had provided valuable technical experience. He used that to land. jobs at major construction sites around the western you asked during the seventies national led fifty mb west of salt lake city, a high security traction plant working with extremely caustic acids. Becky gave birth to her first child with care. a boy in nineteen. Seventy seven. In may of. Seventy eight carry moved with his wife and their one year old son to send an over a california hitler the job of the company called back tell which was contracted to banned the sentinel re nuclear generating station, These jobs only ever lasted as long as the construction project carry return to ogden after each one. He and Becky had a second child another boy at the start of nineteen. Seventy nine becky convinced her. and to give a sector me soon after a fact that will prove critical later in our story of months later. Carry was on the road again to oceanside california, a city,

forty miles north of san, diego Becky joined him in june of nineteen eighty driver from you taught a southern california with her two children they were accompanied on. Trip by a woman who was then engaged to carries younger brother jack Hartman. Becky would later tell an investigator that on there second night, an ocean sighed she walked in on carry as he was sexually assaulting there soon to be sister in law, Becky intervened, but no one told carries brother jack. What carry had done? Becky said, carried, got her drunk one night in California, then left their apartment for awhile and returned with a young marine from one of the nearby navy bases he alleged They told the marine to do whatever he wanted to Becky, who impaired, unable to consent or resist Becky would later say she had broken down and cried when she realised what was happening. The marine had apologized and left carry Becky.

The kids returned to utah a short time later, The outside world carrion becky appeared like a happy couple I attended a fourth of July celebration together in the town of huntsville utah, where Becky bumped into heidi pas name. I think she had both kids chant in the stroller one walking alongside over heidi new becky, because Becky was friends. Heidi daughter issues with her mom endless carry but highly hadn't. Seen carrie years since he had tried to lure her up the canyon for that date, and she said- I want you to meet my husband, and I thought, oh god, heidi bit her tongue. By that time, I really did Who cared to talk about it that much anyway, you know it was done with she didn't Becky. What carry had done to her and you know that I felt like if I had told her- she wouldn't have believed it. The story of hades encounter with carry started with a lingerie survey phone call, Becky's relief.

Kinship, and eventual marriage to carry had also started with a similar call. I can't but wonder what might have happened had heidi in becky been able to speak candidly when they had met at this fourth of July celebration. They do. End up having that conversation, but now until years later it, didn't you know that he was doing all these things on the phone she says. Yes, he would lock him so in another room or bathroom someplace, and make phone calls, but she said I didn't know holy was calling a who is talking to. This show is sponsored by better help. I across a lot of grim. Unplug material when working on cold cases, it can feel heavy peering in dark corners of humanity, and learning how to cope with all that corrosive stuff. It's an honor

going process. For me, it's not fair to dump it on friends or family, but like difficult thought or feeling in life working it out does require talking about how it makes me feel with someone who, I trust, finding the right therapist can be a chore, but better help uses a brief questionnaire to simplify that process. It's convenient entirely online and you can switch them fists at any time for no additional charge. If you want to If a more empowered life therapy can get you their visit better help d Tom slash called today to get ten percent off your first month. That's better h, e lp, dot com, slash cold, carry hartman and its second wife Becky settled back into life in ogden during the summer of nineteen. Eighty after movie back to utah from California carry began flirt with the idea of a career change. He thought about, because com in interest.

shared with one of his friends, a guy named Dave more play them altogether held, went fishing together when a couple of times. My main, I always double date, David for, may carry years earlier through Becky. She had worked with Dave's wife. she was dead and carry a time when we want I'm not. I met him David Terry hit it off Well, he's classic. I really liked him extremely nice to back in the long run. Dave's Hamley had deep roots in ogden, his grandpa their started, a sewing machine repair shop therein, forty seven, just after the second, world war, the busy had passed down to Dave's dad than to david his brother. They still on it to day day was also friends with many in the ranks of the ogden police department. My uncle has done more the time it was sergeant and attacked him. Dave was a first name basis with the captain over the organ police, detective division,

officer named marlon balls, marlon, and I we would hunt deer Together every year, their favorite place to go? Was a mountain between two reservoirs cauzee and lost creek you paid to get in this girlishly canyon com. So yet we cannot therefore, pro the twelve fifteen years. good times we were taken, fifty gown beryl aghast and got them. Before said, I'm stupid all ten days without count dave told me Harry hartman came along on a couple of these hunts. He hunted up there, one maybe two years if her catch up, there is fairly small, so it was basically road honey on those outings Kerry had rubbed shoulders around the campfire, with Dave's friends in the ogden police department and Kerry realized. He wanted to be one the.

Carry hartman and his friend Dave more both filled out applications to join the reserve core of the organ city police department. During the summer of nineteen, eighty reserve officers, weren't paid eraser creep. Contoured your time. They gave you a uniform allowance which basically cleaned uniform reserve officers could only act as cops when called upon by the chief that finally meant doing menial work like traffic control during parades and rodeos Reserves worked under the direct supervision of full time officers, serving in the reserve could just be an expression of civic pride, but more often it It is a first step toward landing a paying job as an actual officer, the apple asian for the Ogden police reserve included a questionnaire one of the questions red. Why are you applying for this position carry wrote because I want learn police policies and most of all to try and help all the people that suffer from the bad guys here out of room so carry tee.

The page over and continued I've, always to be a policeman, maybe help right if ye wrongs, including some my team years. Didn't bother to say what those wrong. were the form asked about hobbies terry listed his as hunting handball and guns. How is carry ammo about like may were crummy another line on the form asked. Have you ever been quest? by police arrested, charged, tried or convicted of any crime carry checked. Yes, He didn't described the offence. His harassing phone calls heidi poznan, only noting it had happened. Ten years earlier, he had to having had his driver's license suspended, in fact he'd been driving on a suspended by the day he'd gone to meet heidi in the canyon, mid to having been fired from a job to having stolen pretty from an employer to having standing debts to having once

smoked marijuana. None of that apparently proved disqualifying. Ogden police contacted, carries references which included his father uncles and a friend's dad. They put carry through polygraph examination which revealed no indications of deception. We sat for interviews with some of the department brass. He received mostly middle of the road scores from the interviewers. The few negative marks highlighted a quote tendency to react, impulsively or a radically and a need for Training and stress situations clear to me how deeply ogden police looked into carries criminal history? What I do know on november sixth, nineteen. Eighty, the chiefs carry a letter welcoming him to the ranks after he comply, Thirty hours of training carry hartman would become a reserve officer. The chief

Also accepted Dave more into the reserve at the same time, to enjoy louder yeah, where there is no set schedule. You just went He felt like it carry them just training by the end of december, police issued him a badge utility belt, a set of handcuffs and a cold trooper revolver all of which he started wearing beginning in january of eighty one. It was hardly carries only gun, he already owned a three fifty seven magnum revolver, a thirty eight detective special adieu. Hunting rifle and a shotgun. But all was not well in carries life that summer Becky filed for divorce She had secretly made a recording of carry making one His lingerie survey phone calls by hiding a tape recorder under their mattress Becky gave that tape to her hurry to hold as leverage in case carry tried anything she then kicked carry out of the house,

their divorce finalized. By the end of eighty, one becky ended up with custody of their two sons. Carry hartman was once again single. They carry the day a lot of people in the time. You knew him quite a few now I've heard that he was pretty social but, unlike in the past, they hold me. He and his wife didn't double date with carry any more Why is it always called him? The devil, undisguised with me, why so how'd drink, embodies in hand. Because Dave's wife was friends with, carries now ex wife Becky and had heard about how carry had treated her. I ask dave if he had worked directly with carry when they were both in the police reserve core and not really when they pretty much put us with a right of troughs her, but wildly

carried, didn't serbs shoulder to shoulder. It was clear: carry took to the reserve role with vigour. He forged own friendships. With many of the organ officers, a police, port, would later no carry quote road with officers more than an average amount of ours and was streamline interested in police work, He underwent additional training and special weapons and tactics. Swat and learned about investigative techniques carry himself too grab his time in the reserve like this acted as back up for partners in all types of situations from traffic details to crowd control. And ogden did deal with some major crowds during carries time in the reserve. Notably when president Ronald Reagan visited a stage yogi picnic on september, tenth, nineteen. Eighty two in the ogden suburb of hooper, it's good debate in hubbard. You know this is almost as bigger crowd as an osmond family reunion. These

are courtesy. The ronald reagan presidential library now just out and back here before I came up. I was made a member of the waiver county. Sheriffs mounted posse greatly honoured. I'm also relieved because when they rode up, I thought maybe I had done something wrong and we gotta get wouldn't slammer an organ. officer filed a parking citation for the presidential, limo Ticket was issued to a ronny raygun with an address on pennsylvania avenue in Washington DC. I've heard from a few people officer responsible was a guy named chris Zimmermann summit put. It was zimmerman. He got chewed out pretty good for him, but everybody else thought it was funny, including reagan. Reagan got a kick out of it. Kerry art, wasn't involved in a prank. As far as I know, but did soon find himself in his own sort of trouble, with the chief, a deputy, came up on a warrant for failure to appear in court in january of eighty three, the booking record

doesn't say why he was supposed to be in court, but he paid a fine and was quickly released several months later in may ogden police brass called carrion for a meeting. They asked him to resign the reason They had learned. He had taken a plumbing job in the city of Evanston. Just over the a border and wyoming. They said he couldn't continue as a reserve while working in another state. This- probably wasn't the real reason, but it would I'll carry to save face. He turned in his gear his dream of coming a real police officer was over. He was were keen on the commissioner, or something that america first in the fall of eighty three a young woman named pan volt, headed for the brake room credit union where she worked. She passed the open door of a utility room and saw a man she didn't know. He said hello She said hello back

bumped into the man again a few times in the days that followed and the key word is not stop me and say hi and talk to me a little bit. We became friends If your hearing a bit of hesitation and pans voice, probably because of this man was carriers. Pam was in her early twenties carry was thirty five in working, odd jobs. As a plumber and h, vs, ie, technician, like a really nice guy here, Very yes, it was pretty masculine hammond, Here is hallway, encounters soon blossomed into a relationship they began seeing each other outside of work you are aware at the time of some of his extra curricular activity, not at all. Otherwise I would not have been with him whatsoever Pam would sometimes sheer tidbits about her time with carry with coworker another. Credit union employee named. Surely Warren

Sri, as I mentioned earlier, is the vote of our story in this season of cold. PAM and Sherri had first become friends after meeting through their work. I think for both loan officer, so we worked on them on site I am so we kind of hung out a lot talking about the loans that we were doing and helping each other and things like that They were in pans, words, kindred spirits. We have fun Like I said, we just would like to go shopping and stuff. She loved clothes. So today I mean you know, I'm a girl. Of course. I left polls Kerry, had even chatted up cherie once or twice while working on the credit union's air conditioner he's, unfortunately, pretty personable but it hadn't gone anywhere with fury at least not write them rees personal life was at the time complicated. She married a man named Charles Warren in february of eighty one just days after her twenty first birthday, Charles Or chalk, as he was better known, was eleven years older than cheery chuck had taken

sure to las vegas for their honeymoon. Sherry and our new husband, but it heads from the start she enjoyed. separated after just eight months of marriage, but while apart sure he had learned. She was pregnant. I dont know what went through sharif mind when she came to that realisation, but I do the pregnancy brought, sherry and chalk back together for a time, They had a son together in may of eighty two. boy. They named Adam in ocean. She loved him so much. This was around same time. Pam Sri at first met, surely told pam. She felt worn she was thinking about leaving in- and you know a few things like that. Suspending talk to me about that a little bit chalk, For the southern pacific railroad as a yard clerk, he made good money I spend a lot of buying and selling cars on the side. This had frost added who was left trying to five for herself and her son out of her own paycheck.

Pam told me. She didn't see much of chalk warren during the time she spent with sri during the early eighties only one instance stuck out in her memory. We to leave one day and her car had been stolen, shadow, toy odor celebrate like a really I swim in. It had been stolen, abbot parking lot, so I waited with her until chuck came to pick her up. I was so eared psych. I mean out of a parking lot. You know that's protein pretty busy, sherry and chuck Warren were still married and eighty three, when PAM first met, carry hardened. The credit union where she and worked. I told me her brief relationship with carry soon fizzled I don't remember why we quit seeing each other. It was this. You know it is fully wasn't right. Carry was through a rough patch. Whose, behind on child support an ode money around town february of eighty four. He wrote this in his journal. Bills are due things are really tight. I dont know if I can survive

Two days later carries own dad fired him from a plumbing job. my whole world came crashing down on me today at the extreme deep depression. Deliverance was coming for carry a couple of later, he at last landed a job with a prospect of permanence he hired on it. We state college in ogden to run the steam boilers that provided here for all the buildings around campus. working at. We state put carry hartman in contact with a cornucopia of coeds, but it was an older woman, a staff member the college who caught his eye at the start of the eighty four fall semester? Her name was jan Jan worked as a secretary in the college's sociology department sheet of a corvette one that september, she walked out to car and found a note tucked under the windshield wiper. It said she had nice legs

Jan started receiving phone calls soon after from a man who described himself, has her quote secret admirer jane was these six at the time and the widow her husband a few years prior. The attention frankly flattered her the collar soon revealed himself to be carry hartman a man, years, her junior they began dating and Jan discovered her new boyfriends moods were unpredictable two weeks into their relationship. Carry reportedly told John a story about how he was being dragged to court by a plumbing supplier overrun standing dead. She took pity and agreed to loan him. Sixteen hundred dollars only days later carry hit jan up for another. Sixteen hundred dollars saying he needed the money to put toward a four wheel, drive pickup truck. He needed a truck with good tyres he said to attend the way of a guy named brent morgan. Well, is a very good friend of mine. Brenton ten

I grew up in the same neighborhood, but more than that their parents had been friends going back to the nineteen thirty's if you go back to who? Can you remember, as your first friend your second prendre, your third friend, that's the way he would be brent owned his own business called aspen taxidermy. That is correct I started nineteen sixty eight. In fact my license is right here in seventy: nine branded purchased a lot and a new cabin subdivision, just south of cosy reservoir. A short. This then from the meadows campground. Where care tried to meet heidi poznan years earlier. The place was called cauzee estates and it's going play a major part in our story. The season for now all you need to know about it is the cabins of cosy estates were tucked into an isolated canyon, called skull crack I mean when we are building the cabin I could spend a month

And maybe not even hear anybody up close, they might be going up the top of scope but as far as over, where I'm had very few people, there's a place at the top of school crack canyon called box spring Yes, that's correct ride on the very top in the pines brand chose to tie the nodded box spring on october, seventh, nineteen eighty four he invited about fish if his closest friends and family to attend the wedding carry. men among them. I'll tell you later great view when you're right up there and right hand fork and you're lookin out nobody's up there, that's because getting to box spring isn't easy Brennan guests had to be waived through the gate at the entrance to cause the estates, then their way up the dirt road to the top of the mountain. I told rebecca S is when you com better LAO an hour to get up there you don't allow an hour. You're gonna, miss it well. The gentleman married me didn't pay attention. He was fifteen minutes. Late,

because he didn't believe and take an hour. This is why carried told his girlfriend jan hidden needed her money to pay for a truck capable Getting up the mountain to brands wedding, he ended up with a yellow nineteen. Seventy two chevy it was. What I'd call up pretty truck the key. winding somewhere between gold and mustard, but tk spend a little extra on custom wheels and a noisy exhaust to make the truck his own brent. me. He remembered the rumour going around back then was carry was just using jan for her money, but Time carries friends tried to set him straight. He waved them off he says you know I was gone for a while. the ices I was in vietnam or been in vietnam. It did this misamis this me. He me he used that kind of crutch or an excuse. Brandon. who have carries arrest in seventy one. He also knew It had resulted in no jail time. There's one:

I can tell you about carry he had two dispositions or to people the doktor jackal mister, He could be the nicest guy you everyone made and you'd do anything for you. But he also had that sinister side. So there was both sides tune How did you see the sinister side from her, Well, it's just I mean it. happen very often, but it was, it was just it wasn't this nice guy and he just point blank, it's like we had two personalities and if the bad guy did some, it's like the good guy did not happen. Brent's wedding on the mountain coincided with the opening weekend of the l cant in nineteen. Eighty four many of his guests were elk hunters who had had to make a difficult choice when asked to save the date, but my good friends gave up their having to come and spend the day was made, but this

hadn't been a conundrum for carry. Did you ever know? to be an open. Really really I know he had a rifle because he halted He came to me and wanted made loaning the money, so I could get it out a hawk, bringing me a copy of a photo from his wedding. It shows care and his girlfriend, jan among the pines at box spring. carries wearing a black shirt. Brown pay A leather belt stamped with his own name in an ivory colored cowboy had after christmas that year, Jen aid for the two of them to take accrues to mexico. She sped, twenty five hundred dollars on the vacation. Carry cover any of it. I dont know what happened on that traffic jams no longer lives. So I can't ask her, but I know it broke her. I dont mean financially wrote carry a letter in january of eighty five telling him they were through, she felt he had used her. She had made a mistake.

She never wanted to see him again jan would later tell a detective carried showed up in her office on the we restate campus a week later, acting like nothing was wrong they stepped out into the hallway. To talk that's when she said cary grant her from behind and dragged her into a closet. She told him no, but he didn't listen there. Carry allegedly forced himself on Jan ass. She fought back. Jen didn't report the assault at least not right. Then years later she would tell people she had feared. No one would believe her since she incur had been dating. She had felt too embarrassed shamed and humiliated. Carry hartman's ex girlfriend from the credit union pam vote

and her friend. Surely Warren had taken occasion of their own to hawaii around the same time as jan and carries mexico crews at the start of eighty five waste it was you and then we went over to maui at the time I was a her. We went to from bars every night and we To allow one night, but for the most pretty much just like laid on the beach, and you know, watch people we spent a full two weeks on the islands, sri at the time to burn, because she had just quit her position at the credit union where she'd worked with pam when she got back from vacation, sure was going to start a new position with a different credit union at a branch right next to the weber state college campus. She was really excited because she was going to like a manager, training program, twice. She went up to that credit union is for the upward mobility, so got the impression that she was pretty excited for that purpose.

And surely grew even closer as they spent time together in hawaii. We had a lot in common. She was still married to check at the time He hadn't invited her husband, chuck warren on this tropical getaway sure and chalk weren't seeing much of each other by this point and eighty five they had more or less separated again still living in the same house, but hardly talking to one another, but they made a deal would watch their son while Sheree was on vacation. Then she do the same for him when he took his own time off later that summer. It was really for her to leave her little boy. Adam Surely son is a grown man now I've had opportunity to talk to him, and he remember much about his mom he's. All I'm not interested in being in the spotlight, so you won't hear from him in this podcast surely siblings, weren't privy to a lot of her personal life during this time either worn would later say he ensuring had started seeing other people, but had it

read not to talk about it so, sure. We began to explore her independence she'd be raised as a latter day saints by parents who placed great importance on their faith. Latter day, saints are taught to abstain from alcohol sharif. To define her own boundaries, while in hawaii we got This barn, weaker, wait, you're drunk net we weren't driving. Now so we were just watching and what not and then the next morning we woke up, and it was private tenor. Ten thirty and were like we gotta get some food in us. So we walked to this cafe that had for breakfast and we ate- and cherry promptly threw herself because she said which still hurts topic Do we decided this was not the data to in the sun. do you know that tells me for a moment. She valued issues Drinking or she try to keep it

She kind of cap that on the download she didn't advertise it her anything, but I in all I think her parents were pretty. pretty understanding sharif. Was going to need her family support. She can fly, de pam she intended to divorce her husband, chuck warren soon after they returned to the mainland, and I Remember specifics. Now that she wasn't really very happy sherry had chuck served with divorce papers and may have eighty five, she pact her things and left the house they had shared. she had moved into an apartment in crystal revelation. I go up and we'd hang out at her apartment and talk and stuff like that. Something happened at the apart and not long after she filed for divorce. I'm not, clear on what it was. I'm not sure If she even told her friends or family, but something spooked sherry, so bad she band her lease and moved in with a cousin she,

tried to find another apartment, but by the summer of eighty five was forced to move back in with her parents. Some where, in the middle of all this Surely once again, bumped into carry hartman. They remembered having met before when carry was doing the h, vs ie work at the credit union where pam injury and worked in eighty three sharing. You carry and pam had dated, and I had moved on and stuff then he started dating sherry, but surely was still technically married, would be safe to assume, probably wasn't legs, yeah. I think that would be safe to assume that it wasn't serious thing. It was more just a kind of a flight I guess a summer, fling but the man she knew very very little about a few months later, Sherry Warren would vanish october. Second, is date of her disappearance and I'll. Never forget that not many.

people would think to look closely at the man she had dated. Only briefly carrie hartman. He appeared at least outwardly as an standing citizen, a veteran of and here policemen, a blue a tradesman with a strong work ethic suspicion fell more readily on fisheries, estranged, husband, chuck warren for good reason: chuck had skeletons of his own. I just thought in. I wonder if he like over across the desert in all. I hated to my mind to go to places like that, but yeah I kind of tat. He might have done something.

It would come to learn. Chuck Warren had a nickname tire iron chuck, rising from a brutal act of domestic violence in his past. I don't know if I heard it from her or if I heard it as kind of just talk, but my understanding is that he came to the branch and he told her if I can't have you nobody is going to, and that was shortly before she disappeared,

this the article, never hurt sheree upset before sean coming in with a gun works. She was saying things like: how could you be with someone else? Blake did he get off and now there are a lot of missing girls night and I get this phone call. There is a possibility that he follows the women around town gets to know this man says hi, I'm doing a survey on ladies' lingerie. There were phone records that showed that he had made literally thousands of those types of calls. I remember getting a call from an anonymous caller and he that he had found a body he described his decomposing body, the person. Next to it, I loved that place to wake a doctor or lawyer. You might walk by and not ever see, whoever help put anything in it. King rich people get into position. It is extremely tough. It didn't get a lot of attention lately, se cases too now you're the first person at the school reported. It is okay to be just as honest as you possibly can, because they've got a lot more on you than what you think.

If you have information about the disappearance of sherry, worn now is the time to share it. You can each me by emailing cold at chaos about com or contact the royal city police department at eight zero, one, seven, seven for one zero, six, three I also want you to know if you ve experienced use or sexual violence you're not alone, there are true the experts ready to listen and help in the EU. it states survivors of rape and sexual assault, can connect to free resources through the rape of and incest national network at r, a I n n dot org, If you are someone, you know, is experiencing domestic abuse in any form, you can read the national domestic violence hotline at the hotline, dot, org cold. The production of care so podcast and wondering in association with workhouse media, hey prime members, you can binge every up. Sort of cold ad free on amazon, music, download

amazon music app today, you can listen ad free with one replace in apple pod casts before you go. Tell us about yourself by completing a short. They are wondering dotcom, slash survey. Cold, is researched, written and hosted by me. Dave, kali audio action and sound designed by Ben cubic and aaron mason mix. And mastering by Ben key Michael bond Miller composed our main theme with additional at this season by Alison layton brown additional voices in this episode provided by John green, my purse No thanks to our editorial team, Amy, donaldson and race. Martin ryan meeks Gee bruce cure, pheromone, carry on how verse and Josh Tilton and felix banal for amazon, music and wondering manage producer, candice men, rica's, wren, produce Claire chambers see. producer, lizzie basket and exec producer morgan jones, special thanks to kill it

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bomb went off. It killed. One hundred sixty eight people in Over six hundred more at first, both the american A book and law enforcement believed internet No terrorists were behind the attack, but the other. lead investigators toward an unexpected and chilling conclusion: the Oklahoma, eddie bombing appeared to be the work of domestic criminals and applaud bounty. with political extremism, conspiracy theories and a goal to strike back against the united states government following can scandal. Wherever you get your podcast, you can listen ad free on the amazon, music or wonder. Yap