Welcome to the commentary magazine. Podcast today is Monday, the twenty fourth of February twenty twenty, I'm John put words the editor of commentary with me, as always senior editor agreement, hello Abe, I jump associate ever know Rossman. I know my John actually not always because you were not here on Thursday. We missed you and in Washington, see writer, Christine rose and high Christine I done so I suddenly, you know in about five seconds. Bernie Sanders is now you know the king of all of us,

Will he surveys and is now has a we basically. From tomorrow may run away with the democratic nomination and be Trump and we will become a socialist country and twenty twenty one. If I go do I have that right, solar, so I'm going I'm an awful one proviso that says that maybe people a job the gun, which is that when you come right down to it after all, the voting was tallied and in fact, Sanders got forty. Six percent of the delegates herb count whatever in Nevada on Saturday, The grand total of twenty six thousand votes. So we are

We are now ruling that he has completely you know, taken over the Democratic Party, with twenty six thousand votes after two arguably sub expectations, performances in Iowa, in New Hampshire. For some reason, people keep saying that he has now won the first three. He did not win Iowa, but a judge about more votes. It's a more delicate, so I don't really understand how people are still saying that he won. I love, but ok, so he, but this is a troop that people are now saying that he why I m he He certainly one New Hampshire, but he won by a point by one point, two points over but a jazz, but we are looking at the Nevada results were, but a judge you know, got about eleven percent,

didn't clear the stately threshold them and now the whole idea is that he's dead and Amy Club, which are as dead and Biden is, you know, even though he got twenty percent in the vat. Is you know choking on films and so that only weeds leaves Bernie Bloomberg. Bloomberg was so bad in the debate last week that everything is out just falling Barneys Way ape. It is time for you to take a victory. Lap beak since the spring I've been saying. I don't know why people aren't folks, Bernie Sanders so aim Take it away. Bernie Sanders fan boy. Yet, though, the worst victory lap ever of all the things did to you know Crow about haven't been right on the living I'll say about the be twenty five thousand votes? Is that that's the game

and it still many thousand more votes than anyone else, rather self right right. Well, of course, the joke of these carcasses are that the Caucasus, the old way that you try to expand out the presidential selection process in states without expanding it out to voters, thus say the Caucasus wherefore party people only for people who work, officials are workers and the party, and they then got to participate in how the state was going to send people to the convention. Now we have this bizarre thing where the carcasses are just a primary with a lot fewer voters in it, and a lot of their votes are cast in public. So that's bizarre, and this one particularly was bizarre because you could vote early

which meant that you, There was a secret there's, half of it is a secret ballot, your photos early and instead of doing the thing where you stand in one place for the first ballot and then you can move to another place in the second ballot. They did rank choice, voting where you could pick your favorites from first to Frank choice, voting as a thing that is happening in America there. It we're gonna, have rang choice, voting in New York City in the democratic primary in twenty twenty one- and I think so you know this is like a real. This is a real thing: it's not the Caucasus and the caucus. Basically, so you're basically make it hard for people to vote a secret ballot and now we're treating it like it's. You know the same as this. The big state, by the way you know, I mean it s, not a million.

People live in LAS Vegas now, and a hundred thousand people participated in the maybe in the Caucasus. I'm already forgetting when you mentioned I will before birth, didn't win the first round the right haven't. You got the most votes in the first Randy, not, but annoying. I know and open about what, when you aggregate when the votes were aggregated, the last thing I saw was the peak got two hundred Moyne up and he got more. Elegant, so he didn't win Iowa its tsar how there seems to be this confusion that he may have one. I was fine, so he didn't we I will one New Hampshire Nevadas. So no one denies that he one New Hampshire and that anyone know just been if it gets maybe explain. Some of the sense of the law such ass. It was such a chaos and rise ass, but one you to continue with the victory lap, because I think you need to say why

it was back a year. I will tell you why it said It is still a very unsophisticated reason. It's because I I looked at the lip left, as I know them and have you know, come to deal with them on occasion, some being my friends, others, you know being antagonists being that I can. A writer and my impression in totality was that They are really quite far left- and this is just not being reflected in the analysis that has Biden sort of cruising through to the nomination and and a and Wild Biden was up there. Being serve uninspired and bumbling. The rest the field with the exception of Aimee Closure, was trying be burning Christine,

I was going to say that that's exactly right and quite astute of aid, although he is not taking full credit for his astuteness here. He was very astute about this. If you notice buried in and one of the analysis pieces and in New York Times today was these spokesperson. For justice, democracies of the folks hoop and Bernie supporters from day one they're, the ones who got ABC and other Progressive elected to Congress. There spokesperson said welcome to the revolution and he is being serious. This wasn't every day. This is this has been their mantra from day one. It has been consistent and has been under where did by the mainstream media, because it's it's treated, is kind of a gentle french socialist. But I think it's it's now front and centre. It's been front in centre for a lot of us for a while in terms of the consumer. About socialism, but that the looming question that now the moderate Democrats are asking is: will Bernice socialism, b for voters what trumps kind of crazy

de reality, television personality was for republican voters, which is what we ve been hearing it and he's been showing it to us for so long that it's almost like it doesn't have any power anymore. Ok will so to go back and travel described. The conceptual perceptual failure of the chattering class in refusing to see that Bernie was simply kind of like a slow moving steamroller through this entire year. Long process in which candidates came up and candidates was happy, and suddenly there was a bad than there. Is it was more than there was club which are then there was Corey Booker? Then finally, Biden got in the race blah blah blah the debate started June. All of this, Bernie was just the same person that he was at the beginning as now, and he was the same. Pretty much. The same personally was with a couple of issues commendations as he was from twenty fifteen onward when he staged his insurgent revolt against Hilary Clay

now in conventional terms. What you would say is Bernie Sanders may end up as the nominee of the Democratic Party, because he came in second in twenty. Sixteen, like that, this is the way he came in that he did incredibly well. He got Twenty three states- it's like Gary Heart would have been the nominee in nineteen. Eighty eight as the guy who did extremely well- and I take four war it not for the monkey. This yard and down a rice and and his own weird way that he reacted handled that they can have knocked him sideways. Set the second place it Romney was second place in two thousand. Eight one in two thousand Steam Kane was second place in two thousand, was the nominee into that Bernie, is simply following a totally conventional pattern here. The question is: why weren't the cognition

t. Looking a burmese, solid fifteen to twenty percent. Throughout might turn twenty nineteen and saying keys formidable like this is for and they really want to see this thou. Where I mean I'd on everything that happens, looks inevitable in hindsight and frankly, I think there's a little bit of hindsight and display here that clairvoyance of aid is defensible. Everybody has jumping on board the the bandwagon here. I don't think is

Joe Biden was the politer well before he got into the race in April, two thousand and nineteen maiden pulling that for quite some time. You always pull dab of Bernie Sanders. Everybody who pulled the democratic electoral found that what Democrats wanted was to be Donald Trump. Above all else, they also found in the same poles that socialism is about as toxic as an idea that says you can get that you can drill into that conceptually and say that voters aren't nearly as ideological as people who are in the chattering classes like us and we'll discount that and not really fully internalized what socialism is or means but to look upon those factors and predict that Bernie Sanders would not be as formidable a candidate is perfectly defensible and logical and to say otherwise now is, is frightened looking back on those of an ok, ok,. Ok, here's where I disagree with you, I'm with you, because

other candidates in this race, primarily Elizabeth Warrant, but not only Elizabeth Warren who were not Biden, we're not the pole leave but were calmly Harris or Elizabeth Warren, though, for those two primarily got oceans of ink and and and and hours of time at the centre of all discussions for months and months and months, and there was burning, but we all know the answer to why that was well. Let's talk about it, so why was it wasn't? Prediction was, or rather observation, but an effort to manufacture events, but why did they want to factory was with warm and Kemal. Heresy comes because Hilary at LA right, ok, but get right, editing, reasons. Ok, so let's followed this train of thought.

So the idea was all these candidate should be formal. Kamel Harris should be formal, because she she was a black woman was with worn form, will cause. She was a populist sort of in the burning mould, but a woman and therefore an appealing to women and college graduates in a way that he that burning, wasn't M Corey Booker was appealing, as he was an african american barrel Rourke, and when the walking Castro were attractive because they were semi, latino right and all this and none of them happened. Basically, none of them happened why they didn't happen because they were identity, carrion candidates, basically and their identity wasn't enough Bernie, not an identity.

Candidate Biden, not an identity, carrying candidate dominated the Poles, and it's so doesn't this say that the aid that, having an overarching message, birdies message being I'm gonna, bring about this revolution of the left, bides message being I'm the person to it is crazy, guy out of the game and restore normal, see that those had purchased with people and trying to chop up the electorate into little tiny pieces. And leverage you're standing with minorities to somehow vault into a majority Marian position was an incredibly stupid electoral forest strategy. This is to become press the United States, not to win in a district in Brooklyn, Brooklyn and Queens or the Bronx

Bernie Selling, anger, anger cells over identity politics. Still, I mean right like burn it all down everyone's corrupt minutes. It's it's. Why? People compare him to tramp in terms of tone and temper but yeah. That message is always gonna, resonate with a broader range of people there, then I'm in angry warrants Tom. In the same way, you don't know shit, she's, miffed, she's, metal, Ernie's angry, I don't know, I just think I just think again Abe as the afghan birdie as the birdie whisper. What is it about him at last, it well worn faded. Well, I think Chris he's right about anger. I also think there is now a taste on among american voters for like not just anger but serve explosive nests

and revolution, not necessarily in the literal sense, but in this sort of theatrical sense, it's gotta, be since Obama. It's this debate. We will people seem to absolutely flocked to on a door people who promised massive change, including trump and including burning, and I think there is a sort of heightened political reality too to those types now that is very appealing to voters. Suddenly it's it's it's been Percent of less grounded, sadly, ok. Willoughby, though Olympics, where that with you so

The classic line about Obama is that he, you know his. He may have been very liberal left wing all this, but that his his temperament, his way of talking and doing things of handling things acted as a kind of filter screen smokescreen. Whenever you want to call it that he seemed to have the right temperament to be a leader. Even if, His views were actually far more far further out than anybody had ever been before. Now we have trumpet Bernie And what we have here is the that, if Marshall Mcluhan said the tv was a cool medium and that it rewarded cool knots or like performative hijacks, but but you know the surf person, you would invite into your living room to sit near living,

That was the Mclaren idea of a cool medium that we're now dad the cool medium is dad and that basically Trump is a hot personality. Bernie is a hot personality and that the cool personalities of this race book- or even, I would say, Biden in his demeanor in the debates and all that all these guys, all the governors who who worked in a who basically didn't get The watching pat ripe INS, Lee Bulwark in and taken loop, UR and Michael Bennett, the Senator and all that they were all coming added as the imo. I'm a competent serious person that you can invest your trust him like a. We know why

what you some kind of Assisi Emmy that we could have had that quality. Like I mean in the worst still really talking about thirty percent of the electorate and back to your original point. This is this. Is the result of a very fractured field? Now the difference between Bernie Sanders Donald Trump in twenties? Sixteen around this point, if you were to pit Donald Trump and had had race against marker river tat crews, he would lose both those contests. Every pulse suggested, which

I do, though, is an effort to combine those tickets according to Margaret spoke toolbars book, and this case Bernie Sanders beats tallest individual comers, hypothetical had death rate, so if they would all drop out tomorrow, the prospects of Bernie Sanders winning would still be pretty dramatic, but is that attributable to his personality or even his socialism? I don't necessarily think so. I feel like that. This is again bus back to the fundamentals of what happens when you run and winners and losers and last raising you'll have the mantle of progenitor. So you think that this is all just did that

what who sanders is and what he represents and all that are not central. I think there's thirty percent of Democrats who consider themselves socialists are attracted to socialism and want to be socialists and find no problem with that. I think is probably in vast majority, who are more uncomfortable at that and will get behind the ultimate nominee for the sake of unifying the party and beating Donald Trump Shore, and that will happen faster rather than slower on the part of, as it did with Republicans it'll happen fast, with Democrats causes more more profanity for what Bernie represents some with I'll drop representative in the GEO p, but I thought I would be hesitant to ascribe some sort of magic to Bernie Sanders, some other he hasn't this. This is, this is a really good point no is making because part of it is, I think you need to how Sanders lost last time to write. There was a lot of. There was a out of bitterness among his supporters about how Hillary Clinton got that nomination, which it kept them galvanizing, kept them organizing

and focused on a on a future goal which, as you know, the next election in order to Bernie alive, I'm sorry, no pun intended, but there was, but there really was an effort, and there were. There really was a lot of anger and bitterness and- and I think that is usual in these sorts of races. So there is a kind of its his turn feeling Bernice tendency, which there was in a way for Heller, is right. She's, like it's my turn. I've done otherwise we need a lady president, it's my turn and then she kind of you know What did right into the nomination, which really angered Bernie supporters? Hilary, didn't stop saying it also, as one reference centres has committed base where no other candidate really does right That levels usually win in the race when you don't have any sort of other committed, energetic base? Ok, I do not accept your argument. My will lay out why one piece of data from the Nevada cock

says, is that Bernie got the plurality of moderates, not not by much. You got like twenty five. Twenty six percent of of this right moderates, but it was enough to be in first place among the moderates right. So if people who described themselves as moderates. Around returned with the Democrats with in the democratic party we're not talking about America, we're talking about people who went and voted in this caucus. Not even the Democrats in the lot of Nevada who didn't show up if he wins, a plurality of people were striving. Cells is moderate. The word moderate doesn't have the meaning that we thought the word moderate meant in twenty nineteen now, where, where this has not proved tat, because we have gone through super tools that we have actually gone through, like major states voting, but

I would be hesitant to ascribe by national movement to one entrance. Poland, one state, I'm not saying I can still All. I'm saying that saying that there is a peace on earth and conservatives theirs. Other piece of data right, which was some time in March or April that we have. I did you cited. I've cited. Everybody was when running about the cited, which is the pull that said, that fifty three percent of Democrats did not described themselves as liberal or left Therefore, the Warren, now we were omelette, Harrison Booker end and better work and all those people by pipe by moving sharply to the left screwing themselves because they were moving into the minority of democratic voters and therefore we're gonna compete

I'm a smaller playing field against Biden. Who was the only person who was trying to run self consciously as somebody who was not a progressive, but this meant that the Democratic Party was not in the thrall of the left, even though you might think that it was and that this is one of the things that we learned about the victor at the house, victory in twenty eighteen, because in twenty eighteen, forty Democrats won We replaced Republicans by being you now running on local issues of all this and not on new now leftist views, but what that Paul was wrong or in other words, what, if the word moderate in twenty twenty two, a Democrat doesn't mean what moderate means

to us, voters are not everything. This maintains the voters are not as it illogical as us that doesn't describe necessarily their views on healthcare defence policy. It does describe affect how posture presentation in tone and if that was true, if twenty five percent of all democratic described missiles, moderate and conservatives across the country also courted Sanders there would be no primary right now we don't know a theory. Is there hasn't been a primary outside of outside of New Hampshire? Yet will see what happens? We have on Saturday there would, I know how, in tat, sir, there will be no there there the amount of competition, this ratio before minimal. We wouldn't be projecting out into Super Tuesday or beyond those regularly historic, but were Everything is distorted in this race by the speed of the Biden Collapse number one and this x factor in Bloomberg, now over half a billion dollars of spending style. Hundred

in dollars of spending in South Carolina alone. So what you? have there is if there had been a Bloomberg, Boomer, ever been in the race we might be in the. Harry position where there wasn't a race anymore because by might have come lapsed and there would have been no one to fill the Biden Whole mean just by definition, because voters gravitate towards a candidate who wins just because they win and that something that's observable. Critters press political science on its observable grows every election, no matter what radiological affiliation is. That's not ideology, play, but that didn't happen in Nevada, because Club, which are got seven percent of the vote, and she got twenty, almost twenty one percent in New Hampshire. She was surprise story of New Hampshire and she thought nothing. Nothing happened with her, but she was just I'm again. This is like place, we're not talking about the fiery, but but again I, if you

if you're, if your presumption is that Sanders did well the vat because he won in New Hampshire. I don't think a twenty five point VIC, three in the vat. I can be ascribed to the fact that he did well me. I think you divide laser thought ass. He didn't Nevada last time, yeah yeah, but the again it's I don't know what you're saying that then you're not saying that it because he's the winner and therefore people are voting form can see the winner. Now I think it's all part of the same picture, which is that were applying ideological lenses to non ideological factors. Ok, but let me, let's it. We may not be american voter not be as ideological as we are democratic, Mary voters are not the american voter, particularly in caucuses. They are not the american voter.

They are more engaged. They are more. You know they are the Republican Party. They are more ideological, that's who the idiot that's? Who idiot logs and american politics are. Our primary voters so to say that they are not, as video logical, I think, is getting. Something wrong because- and this is where I think we need to move this conversation to- is what does it mean? that moderates and will see if this happens in carolina and on Super Tuesday. If surprisingly, large number of moderate go with him out for Sanders as their first choice. What it means is that center gravity, the Democratic Party has moved so far to the left that moderates look Bernie Sanders and say I like em, I mean, I don't know. Maybe you can't win or maybe he's a little, but you know in

these favour ability, findings and Democrats among Democrats, and these poles he's popular as everybody uses populars by begets sooner seventy one. Seventy two percent people say they. They think favourably of him ok, but there is some of the sum of the island or about this. If he, if he does get the nomination, I think a lot of his favour. Ability comes from the fact that he comes across as often take great his he's been out there ranting and raving doing his Bernie thing for years and he's so consistently, so authentic ease the real Bernie. But of course, if he's really going to and he was the real burning on sixty minutes either night when he talked about Fidel Castro, excellent literacy programme, I mean he really. Maybe he really believes that he seemed to, but that's gonna be the problem. I think for a lot of swing. Voters I assume for those you know those those wonderful unicorn. Ex election, the college educated, suburban. Ladies,

They really gonna believe that that kind that level of authenticity, which translates to many years as dogmatism, is that appealing I'm I'm still on my I'm not sure we're ready to elect even a democratic, socialist soap box. So I think Nevada was interesting because of the way the hispanic vote turned. Four Bernie and the way the young voted was was predictable, but in South Carolina the real question is: will he take african american voters away from Biden? I'm not so sure we're ok You know, we don't know. All I'm saying is, I think, there's a lot to suggest that the way as we are watching these seven or eight debate. I came. I remember what the counters now. The story was that that the conservative position was to say that you were for Obama CARE that was like way out on the right that was like you now being Herman Kate was like being Gary Bower in two thousand. You know who

You know this is done. Was just so right wing to say you liked Obama care and an even Biden who said he let go by her said. We need to improve it by making it more leftist. So Obamacare was the greatest triumph of the left in a manner history, just Nine years ago, years ago. Some like that, and now it is unacceptable the police. You know, sir, like a sell out to the insurance industry. Party has moved far to the left, The centre of gravity them grow. Praise moved far the left being for Obama CARE puts you the right of the party think about what that think about what that means. While I talk to you about door dash, look, I'm gonna tell you guys something like my work. My wife works. You know when we get home, not that

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of the of the party, but I would argue that sort of everything about the Obama, creation or or most things about Obama. His presidency itself now seems somehow, strangely, Passe and ends too far to the right? For the Democrats, I mean even part of why Biden seems to be a sort of you. No time travelled from them. As of course has to do with I think he's old and he missed speaks, and he says things is as if his childhood was. You know like spent in the little rascals but part of he was, he was, he was a hurdle aroused got faking arrests, high, South Africa right, but but part of it. A different part of its strangely, I think, is his embracing Obama, which our seems absolutely of a separate piece from the rest of the party

Well, ok, I would say that they, they do all pay lip service to the Paris Climate agreement and to the iranian right. There's all So we need to go back into the IRAN deal. The raw deal was so wonderful, o the IRAN, the it's the greatest thing ever and we need to go back into the Paris accords. Yeah, but you can never be an affection for a bomb of the person is real and tangible, and if you were to come out and endorse, I think it would have a genuine effect, even if most of the voters who probably are casting ballots in this primary race, don't look back on his policies. Only they look back on the man. Wasn't that presume that his policies were retarded by the republican surgeon, twenty ten, which effectively did put a halt to all non executive policymaking by the administration. Writing. Yes, but there is also often this lament that you'd here from democratic sort of towards the end of and after Obama's presidency, which was like he does.

Do me a little ivory? I really thought he was going to do more was I say I think you need to look at how the past was discussed and how the present is discussed during the Craig debates to see where the people who are attempting to appeal to the most Democrats are the most places to Democrats, what it was that they said about the present the future and what they largely said was We want to go to single pair healthcare right. Two candidates basically said, no one, that more than two having John the lady said no, but in our whatever Michael Bennet said now, but I'm handed it said yes, three more than to write supporters of Medicare for all. Sanders Warren Castro, Booker Camilla, I mean they were there they they mostly paid lips and they certainly didn't attack it as being

I mean the only ones with taxes being bad were, but a judge, and by right, so budgets, You don't want to take a boat, but it wasn't even them, like budgets is borrowed something from John Delaney right. On the Lamy, the congressmen from Ireland who said you know you can't take away a hundred and sixty million people's health care. Private insurance- if they like it like you did. This is crazy. And then by the japanese potent set it in that tat actually did that important point because there are a lot of poles that show that American still don't understand the Medicare for all means they lose their private health insurance like they literally think that this is just a give away, more money and will improve everyone's health insurance. So they they see is a kind of ad on kind of like the free college tuition thing you don't think about the car, because they don Stand- or it hasn't been carefully explain that that means they will lose their health insurance. I mean that if they that's what killed Elizabeth warns campaign which

He began to advocate for this full throat, ITALY and put out white papers that actually would demonstrate what the policy would do. You have been a peacock pulling this thing over the course of court early, demonstrating that she killed it, not just among the regular voters, but among Democrats who no longer supported it in Manila Majority position, but among Democrats, but but I don't think it was specific to the problems with Medicare for all entirely it's that in her case, she had already spent that money, five different I'm right like she is not regulated and then the kind of vehicles that talk only about medical, from rice popular. So why doesn't that happened to burning? Is it because he won't give a specific outline of a policy that is in no way paper, no problem, nobody familiar that you take setting this variously, okay, so real love, so no a levy amend. Let me offer a possible amendments to Europe.

People are less ideological and and say again we're talking but democratic, primary vote, or so I think you that's it. That's a misunderstanding of Who does that? But what voters are, as they are, not programmatic? All of this stuff about how you need to issue five hundred page policy books. This all really started. Ninety. Ninety two with Clinton, because Clinton looked like a light. From nowhere who was full of crap, and so In the end, it literally in an effort to answer the claim that he was now full of hot air. They started putting out these policy papers. They had these boards put. No one had done this and campaigns before known put together. You know serve like proposals with

labels and how much they would spend when and where and how and all this that was an effort to address the specific problem that Jerry Brown of all people was was succeeding in making clear look like an empty suit so they went policy wonky. That was ninety two was not long. I mean it was like seven elections ago, but nonetheless this was a breath. Something relatively recent vintage trump, obviously didn't really do right and am bernie- is now taking its even more radical of streams of not doing which is like I'm not gonna. Do it we'll see how much it costs we get there, because the issue has nothing to do with what caused. This is a philosophical This is a fundamental human right according to him that every person have cradle to grave health care paid for by the government. That is a fundament. You don't put a price tag on a fundamental human right. That's that's! That's enough! That's obscene! It's obscene to put a price tag.

Nl, human right, that's the smart way took that's war. Did it the dumb way, which is he tried to combine Clinton ISM? pie in the sky, utopian leftist Argo bargain. About how she could give everybody everything for free, because she also believed press right has ever was saying they like you, because, you're that you're the policy purse you, you know how do you you? You have ideas that you know how to put the paper, and you can actually explain these things and then she went. Did it? What she love me? She did listen to repress. Are you gotta, say, listen to her right and they had a really wonderful, given together for a long time What do I still listening to a right? You would think that she as the risen Christ, from the fact that she, you know like through a soft, but she threw up in our fast pitch Michael Bloomer, who did not a hidden. She any struck out like

you know so she was the one who did it. Somebody else could have done it. I don't know it's. You know like this is the greatest thing that ever happened in debates. She got that too, by the way in the Pada now while they said they that she did in a final days but but Yeah, what did they say about eight thousand votes again? Like I don't know, the online is Bernie Sanders. Celso talks the same way about health housing policy. Do I think that voters would be super thrilled if he were to, analyze, museums and carve them up at a common altos. No, but they wouldn't. They would necessarily be opposed to housing. Is a human right? Do I think that voters are really all that thrilled about the prospect of now? analyzing nine hundred billion dollar industry than that healthcare. This health insurance industry no, but they like the idea of a human right. Do I think Democrats would turn into nationals. National social would turn into socialists tomorrow, absolutely are, they Socialists Do they want a national is the commanding heights of industry? Now, too, the idea right now I dont believe

goddammit today relate to analyze. Ok, the oil industry, the productive parts of the economy today do not want to, or would they it would be. Ok with them all is being equal. We Hollywood's emissions, the entertainment industry should currently the Democratic Party has no mission. State both by asking you Jeffrey question. If you are sitting in a room with a standard issue, liberal democrat- and you said- There would be some benefit stood nationalizing. The oil industry set prices. You can make sure that you know when there was a recession that prices. You know we didn't people weren't suffering, you could get out. You can give gas more cheaply to people who drive more. You could put levy high taxes, so that we could deal with, I haven't, I let me far more likely that let me finish from the intelligentsia. I'm asked

the squire. If you said to our standard issue, liberal Democrat, the intelligentsia or not, there could be some better. That's out of this. What do you think of nationalizing, the oil industry? Would they have a philosophical objection to nationalizing the oil industry at night? Twenty twenty liberal Democrat I have no idea what you're talking about so like gal it'll do shoot people, I'm telling you, I guess everybody on live in my bury body in this island, the I think they have over educated, affluent white, urbanized yeah sure I think that's not necessarily. I saying that the Democratic party doesn't people in the Contemporary Democratic Party do not have a philosophical objection to state control of things they did once there was once a big understanding that America that the Liberty of America was different from the state control of socialist countries. That is totally gone.

As far as I I think Chris, What's your where, where do you come out on this? Well, I think that state control of industry is is a much more amenable idea, especially to younger voters, but face understand that not as control of decision making at the micro level as you are discussing with the oil industry, they see it oh. Finally, someone can make sure those seals aren't paid so much and that you know they're all these incentives to save the climate. I think there would be a very different view of this if we start looking at different industries. For example, if we start look at regulating the entertainment industry would have Bernie Sanders residency, have say over what kinds of movies are made in Hollywood or what what studios can pay their actors and actresses. If you start hitting people in there, pleasures owned as it were, with some of these regulatory

pipe dreams and I think you'd get a different reaction, including even among young self described you know, sir, just curious voters. So I do think that much of what the debate is about should embrace this understanding that these particular the younger voters themselves have about what socialism is, because I think it's not what social, Some would be in practice in terms of nationalizing industries and what not we haven't gotten into. You know that the Bernie centres are about you, know, eliminating all fracturing and all these other things, although here still competitive with trumpet states like pencil Dana according to. I think there is a canopy act pull last week about that. So I there's a real disconnect. When we talk about socialism in it have any historical or political theory and your back

and you're talking about a particular kind of practice, I don't think that's how people, especially young people, this country, understand social. I think that the standard issue Republican of core sing about assertion Republican, is, if you say, should the government run acts they would say no, and if you say to a standard issue Democrat, should the republic should the should the government run health care which makes up a fifth of the american economy, some using that as a substitute for this they would say I guess they wouldn't say no got, they would say yes got but they might say: well, it's impractical. We can't really do it or were not set up to do it right or something like that, but they would not have a philosophical objection to it, and that is what Bernie I think report this is where a where I'm going with the Bernie surge.

I am, I think, we're a is a what what able was out last year was this. I totally agree with you, I think too. Get them to yes on the issue of government taking taking over industry requires very little work at all. If any anything its Obama since Obamacare. There has been this kind of dual argument on the on the left, about socialism, The idea is, first of all: is that Socialism is just a word that the right use to scare you away, a big deal. That's that's, you know this is scary thing, and that so then they think that has found purchase over the over the years and There is also this bad argument that Well, we already have socialism, don't you like the fire department, that's that social there would have been named nine thousand things and say that Social got right. It is just the war right, just the name. We give to the things that we do together right,

so. Why was little pull my are exactly by exactly so. I think you know so that the efforts to defend Obama Kara, something not radical. I think I think all of us has taken its toll on, I think they I think that already amazin, when Democrats objected Medicare for all they do so on the bed basis of the fact that people, including Democrats, like the private products that the private health insurance industry produces not because they are for us, can be impractical or politically unpopular, adds that this product is something people like. Ok now why ok, by that apply? Let's talk rob again about the Iliad brought ideological differences between the parties, because I'm get I'm not talking about like the intelligentsia of the Republican Party versus the intelligentsia. The democratic party, if you said too,

a Republican I, why do you like private insurance? A Republican, would probably get to the idea that well, it's something that's negotiated between a person and a company or an employer in a company and there's competition. Competition means that. Therefore, there are companies that are competing on price the way If I want to buy a car, one car cost more than the other car at there's this on it, and that is that on it, and I can pick and choose what kind of car that I want and that's what I get for from my deals with private industry and if you said to Adele rat, why do you like your private health care product? I'm not sure that he would have an answer? He wouldn't say. Well, I like it because because since there's Edna and there's Oxford

there's: U S, health care and there's United Health care and there's this one and that one they have to keep prices. They have the there. The prices are sort of captain check because their peanut, One another for my dollars and they offer different kinds of problems would not say that in this first this terrible industry, in order to make that case caused health insurance is not do you don't pay directly, free or products. This is it goes through now. I know I know, but if you're talking about in industry product is any industry product was go cars because it's not federally subsidizes another distorted marketplace. Then you don't think Democrats have an instinct fuel understanding how competition No, I think every human being has an stinks letting of how competition works. They just don't like it that much they like. I don't like the outcomes they like the ideas. Their eyes are even nationalized: orderly,

First of all, a petition in the worst of all have the auto industry was partially nationalized eleven years ago. So don't let's not forget that the government bought Renegotiated accord, expel forced forced partial nationals and then and then it was bought out of it again but like that actually happened, but not what I'm? What I'm saying is but they like his ideas. There is competition, but if I, if, if it hurts me at any point, I would like there to be a regular, later from the centralized part of America to punish a person who did something wrong to me, not not legally. That's Christine's point I gets back to, though the central animated ethos of the modern socialists, which has not fairness and equality, the worker retribution right puddle. Punishment for yeah four Wall Street, but I'm not even saying Wall Street I'm sending laziness, working right, you're, nothing just

literally anyone right for the well to do it. Rotten intolerance of of any inequality, no matter how it has shaken out, but off saying is, I think two thousand and seven. The Clinton Democrat was not did not believe that we made a huge mistake by deregulating the ought, the airline industry, which I think, a lot of Democrats now, people who understand regular, deregulation now think that this was a terrible mistake that we deregulated the airline industry if they think that we made a huge mistake, deregulating interstate trucking? I mean, there's all that there are all these things that happened by the way under Democrats. Like The airline deregulation was a Carter. Administration was was up

and moment in american postwar American Macro Economics, because Carter, the card migration, determined that it was ridiculous, that that the effort was determining where planes could fly and what roots air Airlines could taken that competition would solve this and lower prices, all of which was true right now. Democratic thing now that was fifty years ago or forty forty some years ago. So I'm not saying that the party hasn't changed over two generations. I'm saying that there was a crucible between if starve, financial meltdown, where the idea that government that private industry is bad has hurt. People has misery, people and that some centralized authority needs be placed to control, to punish to control too. You know manipulative each things and to make everybody better. That is a core democratic party value now, and it is the thing that

I, however, stay this trump. Maybe we're haversack weirdly non republican Trump has talked about certain types of things was instinctively the one thing he didn't go near right, which was I'm gonna come and I'm gonna deregulate about regulating, deregulating because cuz, if I deregulate, may I can loosen some of the animal spirits in the economy, which happened and so no again Trump, not an ideological republican. Nonetheless, He was on the other side of that divide. So that's. Why think, where I think This aspect is ideological, but institutional when his case its institutional. I don't think it's illegal, I don't think trump has an ideological bonuses body. Really I mean you know him

the surf slogan areas, a slogan, slogan, earring bone in his body- and he thinks in terms of slogans, are things that you know a lot of these social changes that happened here were crap and we need to stop a man. You know all that, but I don't think that's. You know that there is any illogical force behind some of that. But, anyway, so we're gonna find out this. We are basically in the next eight nine days. We're gonna find out where the damn our party is because seems more likely. Not that Sanders will be the nominee come a week from Wednesday right while the delicate later, ok with thirty eight percent of delicate. If he's the delegate leader after Super Tuesday he's the nominee who's gonna start blot Bloomberg is gonna. Stop him. I mean people

you're the one who's been making the argument. I did as telling it up or anything like that. I'm essays effective, we're all around rollin little touch, even though these effectively gonna be the nominee basically the debate. There is a debate tomorrow, night Eric. With style. An Bloomberg participates over the first idea, Ross Raw staff. It makes the point that this literally is the most important moment of Joe Biden, political life, that this is it Biden, has to win and win not by a point. South Carolina not drop out the day after South Carolina, and where does he when next. Well, if he, if he has a book, he could women tax She could women, you get there. He's, leaving in various poles on the super Tuesday states, and if you want there's one today are burning coal and now he's twenty four embrace it twenty two, whatever their tie their effectively there effectively in a hoarse race, together,

You know if he won if he won South Carolina by ten or something like that, he would be back in the race if he wins by one. You know, I'm always out of Turkey can drop at I've. It's weird: have you drop out the day before Super Tuesday, your name is still on every ballot. I don't know what that you know it's incredibly the store to the fact that we can't really do it, but. Basically, this is it for him. Tomorrow. Night is its if, if Biden does not does not go at parties, juggler and This is eight there there's only one person who can stop you, I'm the one who can stop? You you're a socialist, this country's ray to vote for a socialist, and you now view better vote for me. Here in South Carolina or the socialist is gonna, lose thirty five states to Donald Trump and that's the thing that they ve. To chicken to say if it's true. Remember centres down,

I was sitting there with hundreds of millions of dollars and hand. We know what that might what that. Money can do. We saw what it did to Rami and twenty twelve. The Obama campaign and and the Super bomber Supermax, but a hundred million dollars in Ohio alone to make to say Romney, Bain Capital, bank capital, Romney, killing people giving people cancer wrongly and am romilly lost Ohio by five points and Trump an Ohio by eight points. There was a thirteen point swing. Without the money being spent too, you know poison, the minds of Ohioans against Omni, so altered to do is go into a pencil. It's about a hundred million dollars on fracturing and spend. You now go into Florida, we spent a hundred million dollars on cam gun on Cute now on cue

go winter wherever and spend whatever you do, and socialism where that poles were that pulse particularly badly, and that's the case that Biden has to make. I mean these head to head things are nonsense: It's because Trump has got the most negative press coverage of any human being in the history of the planet and so he's at. You know forty three, forty four percent in all of these things. Without anybody against him, having been the recipient of torrents of computers. For the last three years old you out there there there there they'll be in negative territory. In five seconds, the minute that the races solidified, I think, Christy. Let's why we get a move on to the other big news.

The damages the which is the conviction of Harvey wine steam on two counts, are one yet out of of it's weird. It's there's one count of rape. But not of the worst would not have worse than rape. I was unaware that there there was anything worse than rape, witches. President hoary sexual something! Well, they re. So this if you ve been if, if all you know about this case, is that he was being tried, a new kind of haven't tuned into the details. This might seem both confusing and kind of like he escaped punishment. But if you ve been following the details of the trial, this seems about right, particularly given that it took the jury a long time to get to this. They were, they were obviously on. Most serious charge, which was the predatory sexual predatory actual assault that was the most serious charge. The jury seemed. Did they just couldn't find guilty on that

the ones it though he was found guilty of third degree, rape of Jessica man who was an aspiring actress and There is a number additional guilty verdict on account of criminal sexual act in the first degree against. The former project, one way assistant, whose name I think it's Hayley Mimi Hayley. So these charges, just just the one top charged, carries you know anywhere from five to twenty five years sentence in prison, so he certainly will have his. He will serve some time. I think the reason, though, that he didn't they didn't get him on the toughest charges is that throughout this trial at it That was the key challenges for prosecutors in dealing with someone who who used his powerful position in Hollywood in or to groom and then and then prey upon women. Women who then were were, who felt compelled to still maintain some sort of contact,

with him, because they wanted to maintain a job opportunity or or not be blacklisted in Hollywood. So there were, I think the jury did the best job they could given, given the the twisted birds of the testimony itself, the inability- sometimes to moderate statements with Dayton and in particular in specific. So I think this is it. This is certainly justice has been served, will see what the sentences I mean he's ever these. What sixty seven years old is evidently not in great health, although some of that was likely a kind of show for the trial furtive for sympathy, but I do think that that this is it. This is. Some justice has been served here, monsieur de sentences. Just think back just said,

years or something like that. Seven eight years- and you know he was winning Oscars the end. The artist was a mere max release, an early and am one best picture in twenty eleven it thirteen came remember when I think that was the last one in our heads Television programmes on the air and stuff like that, and he was dragged out of the courtroom. Literally, he was lifted to his feet by two court officers, who kind of dragged it apparently some form of dragging or he was limping or whatever handcuffs behind his back. He will be in jail until the sentencing, a March eleventh, if so, miracle should happen for him and that he is somehow released on his own were cognisance pending an appeal. Will you shut up aid, which I dont think will happen? He has another trial on other on other

violent sexual charges for different counts of violence, sexual behaviour, in LOS Angeles, That'S- was to come. Do later this year, more than more than eighty women have accused him of some form of sex. I mean I mean like like Bill Cosby that you know this is. It's only science, fictional Cosby was her science frictional, because people really didn't know anything about cause bees. Horrible personal behaviour, but, The staggering thing about team is that ever buddy new. Everybody in show business new. He was a monster and the gloom and that his personal behaviour was so appalling that there was was no way that it didn't. They didn't write, to this level like that it will, it would have been it would have been out of care.

Looked over him not to have been a rapist somehow Armenia. The open public stories about this from nineteen ninety seven, ninety eight onwards we're just unbelievable, and this this is an important point. I think, going forward in the post and then decide upon me. Who era is that we know we will see some further convictions of people like wine, seeing you know that, but what we are not yet seeing we need to still also see a reckoning of the people who allowed this happen on their watch fork or who procured people for people. Like one scene, I mean there's an entire layer of support staff and others who did the bidding of these predators, and nobody wants to talk about that. Nobody wants to mention that there really is no way for the justice system to legally press cute those people, but we need to have a cultural reckoning with that kind of behaviour in the same way that I think usefully we have had some

discussions of consent and the young men are being taught not to be bystanders in situations where they see other men, potentially taking advantage of women. These are the kinds of conversations that also need to happen in places like Hollywood and also around Jeffrey Epstein matter- I mean you know you talk about of support network right, well, procurement, and the other thing now is that is there. I think the seriousness with which this prosecution in the jury handle this. And the discrimination that it apparently showed in making sure that they convicted him on certain things and acquitted him on other things is also an inn.

Court. Reminder that the me too moment that really the hot at the hot moment, the hot moments of me to back in twenty seventeen, two thousand and eighteen people's careers were destroyed and damaged irreparably, who arguably did very little that was deserving of such you know it was a Irving of such public abuse. It now, I think, particularly of the comedian Aziz Ansari, but but I mean they're, there are other cases as well and who people who were not rapists and did not. You behaved an embarrassing ways are in ways at me, people uncomfortable and somehow it all got public and, and they found themselves in purgatory be in this way and that it's important to be able to maintain a distinction between

criminal, monstrous criminal behaviour or even having a public reckoning with what sorts of horrible or discomfitting personal behaviour was allowed by the common culture. That is now going to be much less now allowed much less, and these injustices done only the celebrities with Emmy. We. We know these in up that literally.

Hundreds now of cases on college campuses of false accusations that have been that had been tendered in these star chambers, that you know that that find these kids at fault, for things for which they are not at fault that have been reversed by courts once they can actually get themselves before actual justice. So that's another. I think a central point we made, but I mean this is the heart. These two things Cosby in and on wednesday- and these are the hardest falls. I think in recorded history practically no, I mean I don't know anything that that that that that compares to this army Wednesday was dragged out of a court room in shackles. That is a step

and elected to bring one thing up about Bertie centres and we'll talk about it on the next podcast, but you know, obviously there was a huge controversy that erupted yesterday when yesterday, when Sanders at a public appearance said that he wasn't gonna go to the APEC conference because basically was a nest of bigots, leaving them anything to say to them We need to talk about Sanderson the Jews and we ve done some of that over the course of the year. But this is a very important topic for us here. Commentary There is one tiny piece of information that needs to be taken very carefully and not taken as anything even remotely definitive, but it's out there. So it's

citing Sienna, which polls New York State is the is the leading poster in New York state. Did a poll today of you know, preferences and sanders is ahead. The Bloomberg by two points in New York State twenty five, twenty three, something like that. But the poles of six hundred fifty people of whom eleven percent self identified is jewish and in that Paul Sanders has a as an unfavourable rating of sixty one percent and percent favourably rating of thirty two percent. Head to head was Trump loses to trump among Jews, four thousand nine hundred and forty three now did. He not know that he lost family members in the Holocaust. How dare now here's the thing. I'm sorry you have to take this was grains assault it's eleven per

and of six hundred and fifty people that seventy two people- okay, so it says two people and The margin of error in such a pole is like eleven, some like that. But that's oh means that Santer says a net unfavourably raving among Jews. If the pole, if you take the margin of error into account, we need other bits of data to demonstrate that this is where things are. Maybe a couple of Florida. Maybe the sum: pricing organization will spend the enormous amount of money it takes to actually do a serious pole of Jews alone. What is the age breakdown of the jewish demographic? I dont you mean generally CN. Is it in America's this bank demographic for example, scheme his younger. I know what I don't. I actually don't don't know the the answer to that request.

What I do know is that the younger you skew the more religious you get. I made a relatively speaking, so there there is any way, but the planter I make as that is is it is a matter this is. This is up will be a time of choosing for American Jews. You have Sanderson was openly hostile to Israel, though he claims to sport. Israel's right to exist, which is really generous of him, has an open, Anti Semites, as his surrogates has has a horrible and his real people that particularly a guy named after us as his foreign policy chief foreign policy advisor he and is up against. Arguably the most pro Israel president in american history, Jews, don't like trump their liberal. They don't like the way you know they don't like his associations with the the the alright or

never so so you might have which of course, no one should like and all that, but this is this- is a real going to be a moment of crisis for American Jews. If Sanders is the nominee that it wouldn't be in almost any other case, even though I know one is particularly good on, Israel in the democratic feel that my view but Sanders takes it to a different level, and so it is if you can even begin to think that there is something to this to the Sea and Nepal. There is hope, add, the jewish community in the United States has completely lost its marbles and lost its soul and tell with that, We will reconvene after the South Carolina debate, method debate to discuss these questions

future of everything and no one. I will continue, and I was at Ford Noah and aid, and Christine I'm John, but words keep the camel.