The Democratic Party should be on a roll, but it doesn't seem to be benefiting from the government shutdown, some of its hot young stars are getting into trouble on anti-Semitism grounds, and the rollouts of its presidential contenders have been rocky. We talk about that and about Christine Rosen's important February COMMENTARY article, "The Psychological War on Masculinity." Give a listen.
This is an unofficial transcript meant for reference. Accuracy is not guaranteed.
Welcome to the commentary magazine, podcast today's Thursday, generally, seventeen, twenty nineteen. I'm still writing. Twenty. Seventeen only checks, not the by right of checks on jump on words. The other commentary magazine these seventy five year old monthly of intellectual analysis, political probity in cultural criticism. From a conservative perspective, we invite you to join us economic Theory magazine that calm. We give you a few free reads asking to subscribe. Ninety many five for a digital subscription and Twentyman any five for an all access subscription, including our beautiful much
magazine in your mailbox eleven times a year. We just closed. Our February issue will be talking about a very important issue: article in that issue. With its author, in a little bit that author is common social commentary columnist Christine Rosen back after a couple of shows away high, Christine Hygiene and with me in studio senior editor, a Ringwald high Abe Hygiene and associate better no Rossman high. Now I John so we thought maybe we die. Shift gears away from the the gorilla, the eight hundred pound, gorilla or elephant, or whatever the room or the eight hundred pound gorilla or something and I'll reflect on what is going on with the Democratic Party, the National Democratic Party, as
in the weeks after the shutdown started an Democrats to control of Congress, and, ah, I think, four or five candidates have now basically said they were running for president either explicitly officially or slightly unofficially. Those are, by my count, Elizabeth Warren, Joaquim Castro, ah Kristen Jill, a brand, whom I forget, Tulsa Gabert, Halsey, Gabert and John delayed.
You mean who was a congressmen from New Jersey. I believe Marilyn Maryland. Okay, so am, I think it is fair and of course, the pre launch campaign of better or work the that now former congressmen from Texas who made an incredibly close stab at winning the Texas Senate seed away from the Publican TED crews. It seems to me- and then you add, to that controversies erupting daily over our
dear friend, Alexandria, Cassio, Cortez and the two female muslim members of Congress, where she d to labor of Michigan and Johan Omar from Minnesota, and I think, if you, if you all, who are getting enormous amounts of media attention, that is maybe not that great for them and we can get to that, will live at sea. Like, while the Republican Party, is no great shape, as we know, who is not clear that, politically or in terms of public outrage or public opinion or behaviour, that the Democratic Party is in all that great condition either. No. What are you I mean gather that we were in the middle of this shut down almost a month long and it's not reflecting really well on anyone and trying to pull up this in Europe.
I spoke which came up today and I can't pull up right in front of me, but it's it's. It makes sense that it would reflect poorly upon everybody involved. Because Democrats had it been image problem even going into twenty eighteen, they had an image problem that has managed to turn out their voters and what we ve seen now from this new crop of candidates. Is you some very charismatic yeah, diverse interesting neophytes who, when they opened their mouths, started rude dispelled a lot of the mystic near the another them. Mrs Miranda me the aura random. Obviously cause you're Cortez has received perhaps a little bit more attention than she deserves, and she's, probably the poster child for the sort of thing. But then you have figures like Roque, Hannah and Representatives Rashid to leave an airline Omar who is generating a lot of attention today and
are indicative of some grass roots sentiment on the left. That Democrats would probably prefer to keep buried most notably among those sentiments, is support for Betty S, and I think I actually has a more thoughts on along those lines. Well, it's interesting because this red on the heels of the dance see taking itself off the partnership list of the women's March do, although not explicitly stated to the marches. Co president memories relationship in and support for, loose Farrakhan in it than the gent. Anti semitic, vibrant march, and so then suddenly you have
Johan Omar is, is now been picked for Thee b of the Foreign Relations Committee the formal relations committee, which is you know like that's so and in terms of the did the Democrats image as regards Semitism. That's like one small step forward in- and you know five june- leaps backward because now you have supporter of BS against Israel and someone who is Omar. Who is tweeted that Israel has hypnotize the world into guiding their evil. May olive wit awake the world today to the great evil there,
training. Now she is actually in a position to to influence policy. Foreign policy in the light of the women's March thing is: is this the most accurate Parker Standing Withdraw came up a week of outrage, justified outrage over Rep Representative, Steve King asking for a in education and why whites Privacy is bad. He certainly got one has been stripped of his committee positions and that the national conversation that was well what took so long, it's not like Remsen king, was, was really hiding his racial antagonism and an enlightenment and that's fair. It's perfectly fair, but at the same time- and we just came off this women's March scandal and the dance he has now acknowledging that it too scandal and at the same time you have- Linda source or who is in Congress in the capital building on January, a third as these represent for being sworn in representative silly been Omar met with her. She was
recommendations in low down and just introduced. Some some of the detail here for people may not be entirely up on it. So Linda sorcerers, one of the four organise for national organizers of the women's March one of the other national organizers of the women's March to make Mallory went on the view last week and our friend Mega Mccain did a remark we'll job of demanding, essentially asking her. How on earth she could associate herself in the women's March with Louis. Fair can, of course, is called Jews. Termites, who said some day soon we will punish with death. You know, is: is the most virulent anti semite unleash sort of African American Islamic left, whatever you want to call it and she said, and she refused to do it she refused to- and this came on the heels of a of a remarkable piece of reporting by tablet about how Anti Semitism has been
A feature of the was a feature of the organizing of the women's March at the beginning. Backin though you now the fall winter of twenty eighteen when it was being organised in the first place and, as is often the case with leftist org iser jewish leftist organizers. They were cowed into a kind of bad bending, their head toward the more intersection of victims of the horrors of our time and the more authentic victims of the horrors of our time me, you know, serve the african american women, who demanded to have a leading role and demanded that they stepped back and not yet not be not be to show we about what they wanted by way of demonstrating her contrition in an interview with any times to make a Mallory said. I I understand now then: Anti Semitism affects all Jews, boat, white, Jews, do perpetuate white supremacy, right,
and so Linda Sorcerer, who is and who, by the way by women's March, that their intersection reality compels them to defend some really disreputable people, not just Farrakhan, but also a scottish core, better known as joint Shazam ART, who was convicted of an execution of a New Jersey State Trooper, and they they they associate themselves with some We bad actors, because there are part of the same team right, so limits are serve on the day that the new Congress was sworn into session. Linda sorcerer was a guest in the Congress of I believe what it was, she? The terminology live and an economic eleanor. My revolver very gavest constituent she met with as a congresswoman was with a sort of okay, so so the democratic party. So now we should say that, because I know you frame this in the Steve King
context that, while a lot of us have been yelling about the the threat of female, how the women's with radicalism of the women's March has been overlooked and was being in us or so paddled. Nonetheless, it should be said that, in the wake of the tablet, Peace What lot has happened very fast and that the Democratic National committees- season. Two separate itself from the women's March was actually kind of a will happen pretty remarkably quickly in the wake of an individual piece of reportage that you now made it incontrovertible clear how rooted in the organization of the women's March Anti semitic views were the Steve King thing, you know I looked back and I've been going at Steve, king and on social media for five years, so steep kings, disgusting qualities have been very much
Matter of public record for a very long time, and as you say, no, it is perfectly fair game. Disable was so it's only now that there are in the minority, and so it doesn't matter where they have once more or less that it's ok to go after Steve can find so they did in its better. They did it, then they didn't do it, but nobody should be getting a metal of courage for foregoing after them, although I think the store The back room story is that Liz Cheney elevated into serious leadership position in the house- and I think this is her- this is her first big project is. The sense is the sort of the isolation of Steve King and the obvious effort to get stooping to try to resign so that someone else can can go into that seat. Somebody Mitch Mcconnell, who would otherwise say nothing over the last month to issue a statement against a house members speaking, it's kind of impress me: why would he that I'm just kind of aggression
The steel king is now the third member of the Republican Conference in the house without any committee silence there too. Under indictment right ten who better to stick around, and we everybody thinks they can begin whether these storms is really a disgrace, read one of the differences that would work and have left and right handle this that I think, even when the right handles poorly, which it it has for a long time. The case of Steve Kings, for now John. I think there's little question that when something racist is uttered by someone on the right, its it see, seen as racist, whether that's sort of taking care of or not when something racist or bigoted happens on the left. Oh it's something else- it's intersection. Anti Semitism in particular, has a weird place in that discussion because What is going on with
to make a Mallory and the women's March, and the stories of how was organized and the relationship with with Louis far can? Who is so by the way disgusting sexist, as well as a racist having stuff that he says about women would curly hair as well that their then we have to start getting into a whole semantic debate over whether Anti Zionism as Anti Semitism, and you know what it. What is just criticism of his real. Well I'll. Tell you what's just Grissom what you what's anti Semitism calling juice termites is anti Semitism, that's what fabric and does, and and the women's the leaders, the women's March, they he's their greatest influence, so crap but buddy ruin is right and haven't heard explaining what bs is that its mission is a little bit more less innocuous than not innocuous at all, I mean it said that you had to explain- and that's probably put it that I will now explain: boycott divestment, sanctions against jewish organization juice. Israel or businesses in Israel for because of the Palestinians, Guest
organize boycotts against jewish businesses in the nineteen thirties. In Germany that was the beginning first thing that the Nazis did when they took power in ninety was organized a boycott against jewish on businesses before they seized them. I mean the court political toxicity of this movement is evident in the fact that our President of Omar, come out from four it until after she was elected and caused quite a bit of a stir that she came out for it afterwards, but being kind of general and vague about it before, so Christine we ve, been sitting here. You know man splaining, maybe we'll what other things that's interesting to me about. A lot of this is the role that the social media use of a lot of these folks on the left has played into this is a huge amount of hypocrisy. Writer you have to make a man It praising Farrakhan on Twitter, but when she's confronted directly on air, she hedges, but doesn't quite back off you ve got to labour member after she said: Workin Impeach, the
mother. You know what her head. She inertia the hashtag she used when she was ass. If she was going to apologize, was hashtag unapologetically me, you know said: there's this reared performance of suppose it authenticity when they say something. You know anti semitic or something just you know rude and there must be. They must see a value in performing in this way on social media, even when confronted by you know, as you mentioned, Megan Mccain flying to make a Mallory on the view she doesn't. She still doesn't back off, but she's little more accommodating than she is on social media. I think that speaks to this broader challenge that the Democratic Party, especially the potential hopefuls are facing mean some of them like Alexandria, kiss your current Cortez is also having everyone says. She so brilliant, using Instagram and using twitter, but in fact I've noticed some. It she's become rather
testy in defensive in our use of twitter recently when she's challenge on facts, for example, and I think people have accurately point that she sent a lot like Donald Trump and in those moments right of her instagram stories. Are Cuba for dancing around what not, but but she's going to have to be very careful in her use of social media really have it both ways right, the kind of radical transparency that these platforms give the direct appeal to emotion that they provide it It can be a double edged sword for a lot of these folks can be, and so that the sideways into the question of the launching of these early presidential bids and what is striking about them, is how badly it seems to me a may accept that the little ones I mean Todd tells a gabert who is basically, the you know is basically be congressmen from Damascus. I think we can serve
but on one side has God only knows why she's running or what on earth she thinks she's doing and not only as she pro Syrian, but it turns out. She was very such a supporter of of of gay conversions charity. You know fifteen years ago, which is like in a democratic party, is like being firm you now we is like being firm. Euthanasia I bet banal. It's like would be for, like being for mandatory abortion in the Publican party right? So so I don't enough she matters, but so, if you take the big three and the big three being war, Angela Brand and better work who hasn't announced, but is clearly running and doing some as that good, I'm him overboard impotent. So work, though we forgot Kemal, O Hara Kemal Harris Right, complex, whose behind some Dumbarton Rashid to leave and Kamel a hare anyway. I suppose so
What is interesting is that work, who did something really unprecedented in the last month of his campaign? Better work raised more money per day in the last month of his campaign than any one has ever raised ever in politics, that's more Obama, did at his height, it's more than Bernie Sanders did at his height. He raised forty million dollars in hard money in twenty eight days, or something like that. It's be it in a single state and all in all it nothing like this ever happened. He really has inflamed democratic passions. Even though, is only a three terms, congressmen, so in an effort to to figure out what to do before he would run for office. He decided to go on this sum any there's a lot of Instagram he his campaign was, he was gonna, go every county in Texas and do over him. He was uninstall round the whole time and
driving doing monologues, while he was driving and stuff, and now he's her going to do this across America in some fashion. But he made this colossal mistake, which is that he instagrammed his teeth. Cleaning and the picture of him having his teeth. Cleaning is about as good a picture as anyone could have of their teeth clean, which is to say that like the scene and little shop of horrors when Steve Martin is pulling Guenaud bill, Murray's teeth out of his head. I mean it was disgusting uniformity, no nobody wants to see that and then then you start saying. Well, you know this thing is weird like you can destroy the problem with now. Matters any more and all that, but also an image like that is so but have indelible, and you could probably destroy your campaign a hundred times over this is one of the reasons that people prudently Ito, clear state,
and figure out what a carriage was to say in all this, because I didn't hit the unintended consequences of of Euro exposure of Europe. Behavior and your life You just don't know words gonna go well in its in it. There is a weird disadvantage if you're over the age of thirty- and you try to do this right, I mean live streaming- is no politicians friend, but they should stick to the follow up. Hugging baby, but member when Hilary was just Chillun Cedar, Rapids was not a thing that she she was using snapshot and she became this various mean because it really was like this old fogey attempt to you snapshot and it so it does give younger politicians even difference between and Alexandria Kayser Cortez is millennial and better, whose I think agenda acts are right, a majority so yeah. What a joke you had better by the way was all this. Like he's gone these dynamic young, so young Rachel, ACE worrisome,
these two years, older than TED crews. So there's something about how this is great. We're gonna get new young blood in the Senate, not like TED crews. A work is older than ten crow and one of the defences of him by people. Like him after the teeth cleaning incident was well he's young he's the young he's value is older than I am he's. Not young Clinton was younger when he became president, and so was the Obama, and this is why I was Teddy Roosevelt and so was. J F K, none of them to add a picture them to having their teeth. Queen Elizabeth warns, really hand, fisted beer drinking episode and her and her kitchen. I loathe to give Donald Trump credit for landing Zanger, but I think he really did when he. I think it was him who is reflecting on that.
When numb. When Elizabeth born invited her husband in TAT year, they would like fires, my house, my husband, thank you for being here in the present, was like he supposed to be there. It's her husband, he lived s house only an authentic and painful, and that's the but the head of the visual like that, like she took the beer and she had to be very careful to hide the neck of the beer so that the label, wouldn't show. So she was so. I think I'm going to have a beer and then she kind of had to adjust. She got one out of camera frame and then she brought They do then her back but she's like because she presented on MTV reality shows they don't have to your to on Instagram, no one sponsoring. Well, I don't know why, but she didn't want to clearly you know she's out, o yours. Oh I'm Heizer Bush that right. You know that analyzer Bush, you know buys guns. I mean you know, that's why so, but it was thank you for being here honey.
Was it a great moment, it's like. Why are you put you know it in an effort to theirs? There is a great moment there is a mini series in the nineteen seventies made a romantic clay about Watergate, called Washington behind closed doors, which was based on a novel by John Ehrlichman, who was one of Nixon's henchmen and after you, the prisoners are right. Novel, so Jason Robarts plays Nixon and there is a scene which is based offer of a famous internet where his me advisor wants to stage a bit where he looks Penzi, where he looks really glamorous or something like that, and they say they have the scene of him on the beach in California, with the Sunsetting, Jason, Robards and he's you know, and until we staying there and the waves are coming and he's in a suit and a tie.
Brown shoes and somebody says to the media consultant. I don't think you want us to his picture, because, who wears Brown Oxford shoes on a beach with the water lapping up on his at his feet, and it was once you saw it was really quite a brilliantly stage scene and all of it Does the same this kind of effort to create mythic authenticity, but she added It's like, on the one hand, is authentic right, it better or worse, give your teeth, leaders drive around the country or, or this one's having a beer and, on the other hand, it's a kind of myth making myths making of the regular Joe. You know it's George W George HIV Bore sing. He liked pork Rhine rights, were you know, but I think you know now brought up trumps responses and I think Trump relates in another way.
Trump's campaign and it whatever Pelee still has so much of that has to do with his herd of warts and all approach to this that you know he doesn't care he's just going to say was going to say, is going to be, apologetic is going to flood where he's going to flub is going to. The order of tuna, pedestrians, food in ways that people don't approve all that you know and theirs, if there's an attempt to orchestrate awards in all sort of amidst the selfsame Mithraism Susie. You look like this. Is me getting my teeth clean, you know, their missing the more, but I think they are trying to capture something of of of of the of trumps, I dont care. This is who I am
Appeal right, although a lot of this is goes back to you now that whole the whole thing about Elizabeth warrants, some weird education of that pole taken in two thousand, that famous pulled out whether you would like tat. Who would you like to wrap ear with more Al Gore? George Bush Nord Bush won me now by twenty five points, or something like that. So this is a lizard with warrant like em sixty eight year old white, pseudo Cherokee. But you know I liked I like to crack open a beer and my Cambridge House in out a Michelob Ultra. Oh, you can Then you don't want to talk to someone and Harvard law. School professors give a drink. Michelob, hang on we always become about the truth. Are you make me, go, have all trades there was a theatre, there is an ultra like the one. That's barely be earth, it's it's so low and near bear near bear my god anyway, so so there's. So there is the warm beer that
Yes, it was a nickel ope, ultra, ok she's, all the club, soda of beers, o gathering out just kind of self deprecating. You I'm trying to remember the Michelob Jingle, but I only have alone browsing when they go to problem. Ok, of course, the greatest beer slogan that we have totally off the what was for Schaefer, which was a beer in New York City. Here when, when beers are mostly regional and Schaefer sponsored sports gave sports broadcasts, and so the sheep safer jingle was Schaefer is the one bear to have when you're having more than one it's, not it's. The beer that you drink during the afternoon and you get total slashed and staggered, and then you go home and be your wife That was the message of Schaefer. This is
beer to get drunk on, and then God knows what happens then. Ok, anyway, so that would be authentic if she had a Schaefer I don't even know Schaefer exist anymore, but then we have. Kristen children so centre from New York. Has decided to run, apparently a radical woman centre campaign that is set at most vehement female, including Hilary right that that the danger Female candidate was a you would, you would seem only like. You were interested women's issues, so you had to be tat. You have tough. Guy right tough on foreign policy, tough on this stuff on that, and she is only gonna talk about women. Apparently his visitor and she's gonna try. Go to every female led house, in the United States and meet every she said. That's like she wants to be in every living room in every home in the United States. If jet
what she could do if that green new deal can do it so confused fair enough. It is totally unclear to me what possesses gingerbread too except for the fact that you know anyone can win anything why she is doing this and why she is running firm office she's, not a particularly able by a politician, and she has flip flopped on every single issue in her He ran as a right wing Democrat when she won her how seat in two thousand and six in upstate New York, she ran as a pro life pro gun anti financial regulation Anti. Via state and He is now you know: Miss Awoke, Yvonne, Wilkins Name, just as a matter of ants, but it must not be so easy for one of the people to her left to live
her to ribbons in the first debate. Yet if they have to like taking her down is about as easy as you know, are unfortunately, they're not going to do it as they should do it. They're gonna go after her, first throwing l, Frank and under the bus. That's the thing that gets under Democrat more than anything else more than her flops, but more than anything else, but she was effectively a creature of the Clinton's she was created by the Clinton. She was put an office by the Clinton's David Patterson and she turned on them in a pretty spectacular fashion and after that, the meat to moment made Bill Clinton Persona Non Grata. So I dont know what her her base of supporters in an institutional level, her her her power center ass. She used to have some sponsors and the party and they're gone now, will the oddity of her bid is that she is a senator from New York who one of whose calling card would be in a more conventional election year?
but she has access to a lot of big money really fast, that she can go to hedge funds and got Goldman Sachs doing. I would generate a lot of money quickly, cause the New York centres or cash machines like that, because they they work on financial services, as is the leading you economic driver of the state of New York and so in Washington. That's what they. And so they have a really incestuous relationship with financial services firms that is not going to be helpful to anybody running for office and twenty twenty, like you do not want to be the candidate who raised the most money from Goldman Sachs. I mean. Maybe you need money, but you know that money comes at an enormous price, now scarface little competition for their role.
Quite Booker as well yeah, but but not but less than you think, in other words, like gifts. If that I'm just saying that her calling card once would have been well, you know I can get twenty five million dollars. Really fast. I have to do, is have seven fun, razors and butlers at Goldman, and you know I can't even remember the names of the minute you know and hedge you no golden tree, black rock. You know dead long fold the money together and I am- and you know, like I say, like that's just giving somebody a giant target paste right on your for in a democratic primary. So so that's why I think she's doing that. I am here for women, I'm running to be a woman. I am a woman running as a woman to be
woman and then she called herself a young. She called said something about how she's the representative of young women and she's fifty two I mean, I'm not. I look I'm fifty seven. So I love the idea that a fifty two Others young, but that's not what I ll see about how to achieve better, could all like started youth together, but have how does? How does it s one Democrat indeed in this age old that issue right, because that that is too That is just. That is a broad issue on the left right now. Every every every democratic is is gonna, be running to some extent, a female centric campaign Am I a green? Yet it's I don't like it. It's also giving enough of yeah that I personally am autonomy as big as the law in twenty sixteen, but at the same time it gonna rehabilitate Africa. Will who's gonna rehabilitate frightened that if you, if you survey the base, opinion
come very close to the Democrat. I know you are you. Are you never think we're there? Yes, and one of their biggest gripes with cash Angela Brand is how she threw him under the bus, and it wasn't deserved. It was on just as they really are annoyed by that you know what it's true. Actually I mean the entirety of the the his political he what he did it to himself. Why does the idea was he had to resign because there was a photograph of him looking like he was grabbing a woman's breasts, which he wasn't doing, and the idea was that in order to hold to in order to rub the countries face in how republican supported sexual harassers and robots his Roy, or was gonna win the Senate seat now Burma Al Frank and had to go. He had to sacrifice
so for the greater good of the party being able to beat Republicans about the face and neck with Roy more and then Roy were lost so resign his second seat to take one for the team and then the team had no use had nothing to do didn't. You know they cleared the decks. People who he was out there, and so it was interesting. It was interesting that most interesting thing, I think was the Clinton was was how was that moment at which people turn on the Collins? I still don't know what to make of it, and I do note by the way, if you ve followed this data. Bilin Hilary have gone on it.
Joint world speaking tour, which is apparently a colossal financial disaster array, even group on tickets. Weren't selling. This thing has evidently I mean, so we really do it. How one of the reasons why I am pretty sure that that the Hammer Phelan Bill Clinton as he stopped being able to generate funds at fundraiser? Ah, that's interesting. What so, anyway, I think going back to the server that the general theme, The question is not a time in which institutions are all under institutions are bad older and there were people
in parts and bad odor, the White House in battle everything's and bad odor. It's not like the Democratic Party has somehow found some mystical ability to rise above the fray and look like it has the best interests of the country at heart, and I dont think really that first, these first couple of weeks suggests that they are anywhere near having their finger on the pulse of the country. I mean what in this. Might citizens were next segment? Is that when I, when I was going out saying you know that it's good for Steve King in a net Democrats me to tackle their? their anti Semitism. I would also add that there Casual Miss Andrey is also something a fee,
sure of this party that they need to need to address, and so I got all four pushed back from reporters, not Democrats, buttoning the guy's, a strong straddle the line between being democratic partisans. Reporters well aware Anti Semitism. I get right because, obviously the representatives made him a rare that was nice of mission, but aunt but messenger. I just don't answer today on this is what your talk. I write brilliantly Yes, sir, the casual derision of men in masculinity right and down they just they absolutely didn't, see it and little things like Senator Maggie Horatio are Maisie run, I'm sorry coming out and sang, and all men just should just shut up and get get behind that bad generality was Jesse common sense right, not to a gross generalization of an entire demographic. It's like a demographic as even the right term hours I mean you know it's fastened to half the world out, fifty believe forty nine percent of them. Let me
and so to say all medical shot up, but it's difficult to quantify because it has become such an accepted feature of modern disk. Ok, we're gonna get to that before we get to that. I want to talk to about our new client cop, Tara, ok, remember ninety. Ninety nine were officially twenty years pass that so, if you're, no one partying, like it's ninety, ninety nine, why does the software you use every day at work feel like it's not quite ready for why to Kay starts a year off on the right foot and find software? That's well a little more up to date on CAP Tara, dot com, captain Is the leading free online resource to help you find the best offer a solution for Europe? business, with over seven hundred thousand reviews of products. Real software users discover everything you need to make an informed decision search more than seven hundred specific categories of software, everything from project management to email,
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Common Terry for free today to find the right tools to make twenty nineteen the year for your business cap, terror, dot, com, slashed commentary, that's see a p, p e, r, R, a dot com, slashed commentary and thank of terror for sponsoring the Commentary magazine podcast now Christine in or February issue, which I an article. I think we will have often available on our website. By the time you listen to this year, licences podcasting go to our web I find the peace and read it you. Actually expounded at length on the degree to which the idea masculinity itself is TAT sick has gone shockingly mainstream? Do you? Can you survive laid out for us Shore think the first thing to notices that if any one has seen the Gillette Razor add that's been making the rounds than it would suggest that right now
but John and able no are sitting in the commentary: offices, barbecuing, men, splaining and harassing women, because this is what men do when they all get in one place, together. So there's this there's a backlash and appropriate backlash brewing against this Gillette. Add that's trying to kind of glum onto me to moment, values and and argue for kinder gentler masculinity. But the more disturbing thing that happened recently is a set of guidelines that was issued by the American Psychological Association, and these are guidelines that are supposed to help practitioners therapists suit to treat boys and men, and they basically did when that masculinity is toxic days, that their actual definition is that Mescal lazy, constellation of standards that have held sway over large segments of the population, including anti femininity, achievement, ashore The appearance of weakness, adventure, risk violence
and in the summary to the study that the APA posted on its website. That says that you know forty years of research show that traditional masculinity is psychologically harmful and socializing boys to suppress their emotions, causes damage that echoes both inwardly and outwardly. So it's it's a pretty firm statement against what they are describing is traditional masculinity. But there's not a lot of evidence. Here I mean one of the things that people have read the report over the four guidelines. If it does kind of red light, the women Studies Term Paper and that its sights lots of these vague radical forces at work in society. It does not mention things like say, testosterone and there is a psychologist interviewed in in a recent media reported over. We dont measure testosterone, we're psychologists, and yet, if you the evidence there marshalling for attacking masculinity. There's this than what science there there's a lot of theory. So what
sturbed me about it. Is it this? This isn't just you know it's a crazy woman studies, professor ranting, on a college campus, where you can shrugging say that one affect anyone. If you start thinking about how these guidelines might be implemented by actual therapists whose recommendations by the way are used in, for example, family courts. When custody issues are at stake there used, you know if you have a therapist whose working with the school system, for example, there might be disciplinary matters that that come up for a for a male student, where these guidelines would be embraced its disturbing, because a lot of the things that the guidelines overlook or the real challenges that that young men in particular are facing. So I think it's a kind of law get us we're we're going into a new era for masculinity, where you know the individual man doesn't have to be crushed by these burdensome stereotypes about how many
supposed to behave. They can be more emotional, unrevealing have of their feelings, and this is all for the good, but I dont think it as an I dont think that there is enough critical questioning of some of the water consider traditionally male values what they do that for society means stoicism is something weak and reticence is probably something we could use a little more ugly myself. We have an enormous amount of social science, literature that says, precisely that the quality of the qualities that is being attacked here, which is inadequate or saying that what's important, is to let your emotions out that repressing your motions, bad and when and how masculinity teaches men to express their emotions, and that leads to enhanced violence that, in fact, we have this- you know decades of social science, research that says that
at controlling your emotions being able to. You now contain yourself at moments of great stress to calm yourself down to you know, too, to push things down and an end show self control over your emotions is favourably connected to better health. Better ability to manage yourself in the workplace better outcomes when it comes to marriage and and and child rearing, and things like that, its veto, the marshmallow experiment Writ large in an exact, and so this. What strikes me as being so horrifying is that the American Psychological Association is not a particularly impressive group there. The group that every like five years comes out and says no one should ever watch television.
And they say no, no one, you know you're, not you should never do axe. You know you, you should never co sleep with a child, because that will give them bad that yet, Well, you know it's like who are you? People like me who you deserve? Lay down these markers on the basis by the with very little is often the case. That is on the basis of very little information. Some thousand here I like their these things are crafted just to get peace it up right, ok, but boats, but on the other hand, you know it is also totally conventional words. It's like This is the kind of this is the stuff of good morning. America, and you know morning shows and psychology today in its intended to feed pop psych ideas, and so therefore they are not the leading there at the cutting edge of research itself. I got there reflecting some kind of general consensus among in the world
the sort of good, good, good, solid, middle class, conventional opinion, and if we have gone so far down this route, oh that is acceptable for the American Psychological Association to say two parents that the mask Liberty of your sons is a problem that needs to be fixed. That is terrifying. Chris, no, and that I think that speaks to know as earlier point that this idea, this casual masonry, this the sort of gender shaming of men, has gone mainstream right. We see it in these cookie adds. We see it in these reports and that the problem. I mean we actually need. You know things like That leaves you were saying, John disciplined aggression and the ability to control ones, emotions and and and what not physical, compare Agnes. These are things we need an in many areas of life, not just not just as soldiers but but for people who work in number of areas, and I think that it is very good
concerning that we're seeing this embraced and in some ways that there was a very defensive reaction on the part of the EPA. When people started to criticise these guidelines, they they seemed kind of surprise, because I think, as you said, John, this is to become, functional wisdom and that that should disturb us Christine one of my favorite pieces of your, Your piece- and you you talked about an earlier- is how it it reads like a sort of a very academic piece of feminist literature. With these jargon, words and secret handshakes and done. It was evocative to me of these some now now infamous fake academic tat that were fed to these academic journals, and one of the most famous ones, was the rewriting of a section of my comp using feminist jargon and end sectional thy eyes, buzzwords at was real, published in and out in a very prominent journal scientific journal and that you can
actually pass on what happened? What happened to you? What happened to the authors of that Jape there factors at a universe, able even Canada and they ve been brought up and academic charges of having a quart of having misuse their academic position in some fashion. To you know probable gate, a an ant academic idea, right that eleven hours, these journalists to publish a peace that is out Emily S right in that dogs attacking each other in a park was evidence of rape culture right I mean the other thing that drives me totally crazy about. This is the fact that the very people who are who are were now being put the position like other defenders of masculinity right. You know we needed to marshal quality we now without it we're not going to be able to work. Be able to defend ourselves against attackers and all that is that simultaneously, nobody
I have a son. Noah has two sons Christine you have two sons like nobody here doesn't believe that males left their own devices and and and trained I society may exhibit qualities of behaviour and compartment that our anti social and injurious to themselves and to others so part of the whole point is that you, interweave these boys into society, you teach them self restraint, you teach them Joe, commonly manners, you teach them how to be a Mench mention. The Yiddish? Very you know, invective. Yiddish word word that refers to being a good man in hole in the largest possible sense. Having good manners having us
the man of sensitive, but is nice and female right, but it is. These are not female qualities which are which are themselves. You know how, incredibly virtuous, and but the process by which a boy becomes a civilized man is knowing conscious process, and that process too, has been under assault for decades and decades. It. It struck me just only now talking talking about this, that the b the guidelines are sort of like the anti Rudyard Kipling if they are like the ultimate refutation of Kipling's poem, if which is which is this sort of checklist on how to bear air. A series of burdens keep your head, and if you can do this almost impossible task, you will you will be a man
You didn't you, but what's more you'll be a man, my son, and none of it nothing. I guess I just looked at all, but it over not one bit of it. Is offensive. Is is it's actually it's about? If you can keep your get had about, you won all others are losing there's ladders and ultimate blaming it on aiming at annually. At tat I mean so so you getting it from both sides here, so Mass Yosemite is is, is toxic, but the very efforts that Society has made over the past centuries too weak to enhance the good qualities of masculinity. An too let's say how allow them to to hold sway over the more problematic aspects of masculinity, have also been under assault forever precise. Sleep by the culture that says it is more important for you to
Spress Europe, but you know, took two big voluble expression of your emotions. I mean Irving Chris so used to say that his Father who, as you know, at the working class guy very reticent in all of this Father never set. I love you. Other, never said I love you would know. No one ever said. I love you and no one would think to say that I love you, but his father worked you now fifteen hours days ago and was perfectly kind and perfectly nice and perfectly civil. But he was a reticent human being and he was a red, in human being, for all we know, because if he hadn't been reticent human being, he could not have contained his emotions. He could not have dealt with the rawness of his feelings, and so therefore, you know there's a great theirs of there's a Grady like every person, is different. Some people are more sensitive than others. Some people are more aggressive and another. Some people are more competitive than others. And among men and males and boys, and everything like that. These gradations,
After we deal with that, but the societal. The process of civilising people is about maybe the most important point in Christine's peace is that this is an effort to divert and a diversionary, ever from the real problems that are strong, that socializing and manners are struggling with, which is in schools and in popular culture and in toys stores. Were you. What fine and a male toy now in just no and aisles of female toys is that people are afraid of how young boys, socialize with one another by buying I mean, if you ever view of your raising young boys, they their physical with one another, their ran, bunches their aggressive and that something that they are born with its intuitive. It's not something that has as that's affected by socialization we're trying to impose socialization on those behaviors but something we can fix what we can't at and, ironically, we're doing it at a time where, as Steven Pinker and others have pointed out, rates of violence in
side of your way down compared to previous era is right were actually much less violent and much less aggressive than we used to be so further to further sort of feminism boys to get them to behave in a way that scene is less you know could include toxic is, is really not necessary and I think but John and our neighbour, all correct, and that there are definitely challenges for young men in particular, as they make their way to adulthood, but you actually want them as well as young women, but you really want them reading stoic philosophy, because it does teach them how to bear discomfort and and teach patients and being long suffering. These are not values that our culture is very good at transferring these days, but they are values that we need in a civilised republic. So I think that this this idea that that we just need to throw out this old, traditional masculinity and everybody Shovable group hug me they talk about,
gender empathy and communication skills, and all these things it that men are supposed to be trained to do, but Toby Young were in the spectator, noted that book this report uses the word transgender more than it uses. The word masculine mean there's something wrong: they're Ray. I would add that I don't know anybody who suffers silently and stoical more so than women What am I doing here is. My wife has struggled with some physical problem right now for all her life and only found out about six months ago. Ok, but you know You know one of the funny ASP This, of course, is that. If you had a report of this sort. Ok, let's go back. This is some version of a historical act of revenge because, of course, the first half of the psychological era in the United States as serve designed by Freud and Freudians.
Eight, an enormous sense of personal damage and injury to women for Qual these that we now know or totally mythological like penis envy, and you know the idea that over mothering cause, autism and stuff, like that's, a women were victims in the first half of this period, in which we believe that the unconscious govern the conscious and its more important to understand the unconscious innovations than to actually take account of what people to on a daily basis in their own activities, where the very massage monistic- and you know one of the one of the reasons. I think that feminism cod, on in the way that it did, I mean you know because of equal pay for equal work, but I mean because of what The general sense that the culture was tipped in the balance of men in an unfair fashion was passed, icily, because people started single, wait, wait a minute. You know- and even I ve been talking about this
in relation to the literature, the nineteen fifty licences is he's working on up on a piece about saw Bell and if you think about the great american writers of the nineteen, fifty sixtys and Seventys, that would be- low, mailer ah ha, then Mamma and and John Updike, one of the things that unite all of them is a loathing of women and in a way that that literally fate that that any writer today would be reviled. You now, or at least wildly controversial for expressing as just as a matter of course, the idea of kind, Frigidity you now observe how about cold woman is also sexually frigid and is therefore you know is therefore bad because she doesn't allow her her maid to express himself. Flexible will really. I mean really in Bellows case in this and is also relates to the point about the friends of the it goes back eminent and dead in the other Freudians have
in some senses, culturally and outgrowth of earlier mythologies about women is witches in and sort of you know mysteries evil forces generally, and the Madonna Whore and all that. But I just think in the end, you have an interesting aspect of this which, as you know, imagined somebody proposing ray of penis envy and twenty nineteen, but I mean this is in some sense a kind of river what kind of a river a bizarre, a world version of that in which all off all being female is is a is a Hungary is a is it is. It is about the damage of not being mail that has done to your psyche now, it's that, being mail is damage and you need to be more female. Pathology rising half the popular hey. I got one where the other does not suggest that its temporary than that However, what does it look at temporary anything, not
however, as anything I'm just saying, is anything temporary mob. One sense of these kind of cultural moments- and it is that, is that everything just gets folded into a kind of the people want to believe it will believe in the people, don't want to believe it won't believe it. But you know what who? What are the authorities gonna do? What are the bid as pristine? the people in schools gonna. Do why me, I just don't think what he may do. Let her great example in the peace is what, if what, if a dad takes a son out hunting and then the parents get the vote Instead, the wife says my you know says, judge. My my my husband took my son out hunting these, like all. He can have custody, because you know he's feeling illogical now classical male violence and depends on the stranger in them. Divorce quarters tilted against women dramatically in blue states right well,
whenever I mean I should I use I just came across the, for example, to came across a peace today that was lonely click baby pieces, like science says this- is the ideal diet for you. I know you. You know that in ten months, science is going to say something else, but in science doesn't say anything but this this thing this issue of what is the proper relationship. Societal relationship between men and women, in the deepest expression of who they are is, is the subject of western civilization in general forever, and so the question doesn't go away. My people now, that's. Where did less, I'm not eating gray prove you notes seventeen times a day, but like what you do when you want a court when, when you're a male- and you want to go court, a woman which has now been opened,
subject for courts as well as for you, no one's deepest psychic fears, and you know it spoke personal exposure, nothing myself when I was a young man to eat are starting to date, not with terror, scared? It was terrified. Enough as it is it. What is of what to do at the end of the data I wanted you know. If I wanted to make clear my romantic interests that I wanted to kiss her, it was already terrifying to have to serve cry. So this barrier, invisible barrier between you and between me and the woman answered, do something and now I'll be seeing their thinking. I might get to go to check all you know what what's gonna? U now know, am I doing something? That's gonna get me in turn later. What am I supposed to do? You know it's? It's already. A nightmare was already a nightmare before this you know, was rolling his eyes because it was not. I am I'm going out, get no added makes it makes me feel morally, some remembering that experienced. It makes me think of another really bad aspect of this, which is it so now like what happens when the
A young boys who are somehow affected by these guidelines in this and this whole dynamic like today, they are handled in the way that that the EPA suggests and they go forward into the world and they're not doing very well. Third, there there, at a great disadvantage to two too
The males who grew up sort of you know, what's with some more more traditional masculine understanding of, have had handled things, and then they are. There are better equipped while giving them the best example of this. In terms of the confuse the cultural confusion of the present moment, there is a piece in the Atlantic the other day about milk upper middle class parenting. The whole question of you now: do we upper middle class parents too? We are we overly involved than our children's lives and do our we helicopter India, we don't let them do anything on their own and it so terrible so we were wrecked. Things seem to suggest that there is less capable and therefore their their more snowflake III and all of that, and yet, on the other hand, what if it's good for them, safe, it's good for them, because they do better in school, now get better grades and go to bed.
Schools, then this is all in expression of economic inequality, because only only well to do. Parents have the resources that make it possible for them to be helicopter parents because less well to do. Parents have to work harder and maybe less well. The parents aren't into parent homes for the most part, so the two parents can divide the parenting responsible is so if its, if it's good for you and it helps They have involved parents who are paying close it Listen to you, that's unfair, because you, because the people, and so in this is the ultimate thing which is we're talking about whether masculine these toxic, the pro this country is that fathers are abandoning ennobled. Fifty percent fathers of new. They have no relation with their children. That's you know, that's the elephant in the room. You want to talk about the problem being being may elicits, it's that its
the one thing that males are supposed to do to perpetuate the species? Aside from the mechanical active, creating life there, doing in large measure- and this is a multi generational crisis, and it wasn't long ago, I feel like reading social science or psychological literature about how male socialization hinges on having and involved male role model in your life. Ass. A child right in theirs is the result of all these efforts to figure out who could do? right. If, if, if the father wasn't, there was sufficient to have somebody who was a big brother twice a week with that help, what was there is already recorded indication that that provides even that or a couple of afternoon or an uncle, you know, and what is there any record to suggest that this would prevent worse outcomes and I'm enough
The huge issue like ten years ago I dont know if it still, I don't know who studies any of this, and I am so now sceptical of all those who lost current social science studies that it's very hard to read, but it, but it might be what you bring up. Some is because it points to literally the problem being a sort of absence of mountainous, yet the prom we have. The problem is right that the civilised masculinity they talked about earlier, which is that which is a necessary component of any healthy society. We really don't have except you know, except it's culturally stratified fact that right, the upper middle classes tend to have the warrant families and more involve fathers and all that in the and the lower classes do not, and this is the poverty this causes. Poverty causes emotional instability and all that explain these boys police. These. These boys are already being raised, especially the ones who are most at risk. We don't have others in the home and who are lower lower income groups.
Already living in an almost all female universe, because their elementary school teachers are almost all female. The administrators at the schools are almost all female and they live in female headed household. So it's not as if not getting a pretty strong dose of female values right now, and yet they are still struggling. So I think it's absolutely crucial to to raise this issue of boys having male role, models and fathers. Having an active presence in the world, that's the real question, one of them. I don't know if it works, for it not to be fought and threats for Christy
I give you end on this point and I think it's a really valuable point is that did the backlash to this sort of thing is generating something that could be considered by everybody to be the toxic masculinity witches these people without role models who are appealing to those sort of them, the most caricatured versions of what a mail? This is sort of aggressive, male, Nelson, and on the right we see it. A lot is manifesting in massaging outright massaging right, exactly nine. They want. Why want to finish for just a minute and a half on a totally unrelated subject accept that this is someone who might actually come in category of toxic masculinity, Trump Ex Trump might Michael Cohen, because this I can't leave today without talking about the story in the Wall Street Journal about Michael Cohen and the fake pole. So the story is that Michael Cohen hired the eighteen
director of Jerry Fall Juniors Liberty University to try to manipulate the online. Poles at CNBC and Drudge twenty fifteen to show Trump winning stuff, and he was, he told him. He would pay him fifty thousand dollars, but he gave him cash him. Thirteen thousand dollars in cash and a glove from it. World from a martial arts serve one of those ultimate fighting championship champions instead, thirteenth dollars and a glove and he kept the other three. Seven thousand dollars for himself, and the guy in question never got the rest of the money and then it turns out that various other transactions story? Says Cohen, skimmed money or even in the in the Stormy Daniels Payment, which was a hundred and thirty five
dollars. He got a hundred navy, he got fifty said he, the heat, must have told it was a hundred and eighty and he then pocketed fifty, which may be the part. The tax evasion charges against him, but anyway, so the women for Cohen Right the Edward Right and setting up a women for college Twitter account about how sexy Michael Coneys. So this this week marks the twentieth anniversary of the premier of the sopranos by by many p lights, not my bob, I made the greatest tv shall ever made. I am watching arranged for the very first time. Ok never thought at the time. That is it is it does. It is, if you let me rest now, forget. Ok, it is stored merrily good nice. Ivory episode. Just don't think it's a baby but- and I think you're there- with this guy yet but Michael Cohen is happy is hash. The lawyer. He is he is here that is who he is and, and so I don't
But that means about who everybody else's in the story of death is who he is, and he is clearly going to be entertaining us for some time to come, because of course he is going to make this big public appearance at a house hearing in February and to defend him as a fall. As a masculine person. He is now expressed fear which I think is understandable, that family might be at risk from this p look appearance because you know people are crazy and who knows what, though you know who knows what to do anyway? So, with the hats that stuff hush the toxic MAX mascot lawyer, we will bring close, please go to Amazon dot com and order, you are pre ordered your copy of unjust, by nor Rossman coming out two weeks will talk more about that next week,
so for Christine Rosen harassment and a remote. I'm John Put words camel burning.
Transcript generated on 2019-12-12.