On the first podcast of the week, the COMMENTARY crew takes up the failed terrorist attack in the New York City subway station and points out just how blase it appears we have gotten in response to these events 16 years after 9/11. And then we ask: What are the media's obligations after they report falsely on highly sensitive events? Give a listen.
This is an unofficial transcript meant for reference. Accuracy is not guaranteed.
Some regions, Welcome to the commentary magazine. Podcast today is Monday December, eleven two thousand and seventeen. I am John POD words: the editor of commentary, seventy three you're old, monthly, a political analysis intellect probity and cultural criticism from a conservative perspective join us a commentary magazine dot com where we give you a few free, reeds and then ask you to subscribe. Ninety ninety five for a day they'll subscription twenty nine members for an all access subscription, including our beautiful month, Box in your magazine eleven times a year. I'm not sure if you can hear
but, as I was speaking, there were the sounds of a helicopter in the air behind me through the window we are about a block away from the epicenter of today's terror. Attempted terrorist attack on New York City in the port authority. Bus terminal at a tunnel on the way to the times where subway station, the most trafficked subway station in the New York City, subway system and we're gonna talk about that in the second, with me is always a Ringwald. Our senior editor high ape high John, nor Osman are associated or high Noah John Answerable, Are your senior writer high so rob I jacks has the show goes on you. Maybe when podcast, I guess, if we can call it a show, its podcast more fun, to call Ashok ever going to call the show cuz we're putting on a show here in our barn, you will hear view may here behind us sirens and helicopters and survey
because, as I said, fortieth in a forest faith Avenue is where the twenties seven year old, the Pakistani born bomber entered left the Port Authority bus terminal into a tunnel into the times where subway station, obviously with the intent of doing colossal, mayhem and somehow detonated early, injuring only himself and may be slightly a couple people around him and he is now in custody- and so we are, in the midst of a major incident that I think, by about five o clock tonight is going to be a minor incidents inconvenient to us. You know I could I get off at a subway station miles pay as opposed to a block away for work and walk and R R publisher, who comes in on a bus to port authority, had to get off thus a mile away and walk, and all of that so
so it's inconvenient, but obviously very little damage was done in biblical by biblically. Appropriate damage was done too, bomber himself, so there's even some rough justice, Ardley biblical. We were talking about this beforehand, so the images of the guy was doubled overstating get to see all damage, but apparently this device exploded prematurely and the image The guy's is like a cartoon bombing. He's kind of singed, unlike his hair, is back in his covered in sight. But that's about it. It's like this device was clearly amateur. Put together by nature this raises an interesting question. I think, which is there was a there was a serious terrorist attack here just months ago Witness guy drove down a bike path. Almost a mile and then slammed into a school bus down in lower Manhattan was arrested a year
ago. Fourteen so: go man left a pressure cooker bomb in a dumpster on twenty Threerd street scares me and was apt. After a shoot out with a cop a day later in Patterson New Jersey. I think that if you went out onto the street now in Manhattan and asked people they remembered the bike. Lane mowing down or the Chelsea bombing. They might not remember. We no law. We are now passed the door in which every possible conceivable terrorist attack seem to trigger. A sense of veto America going being very much seriously domestic threat Abe both because the
Attacks themselves are less spectacular, then say: nine eleven was. And because we seem to have sort of bizarre Liese for perversely, gotten used to these infrequent attached. To some degree. I think there's. There are a number of reasons that we not seeing the spectacular attacks we used to see where none of them by the way mean that we won't see them again in the future. But for one we, the United States, has made much higher much harder to to pull off these attacks here revamping our area are counter terrorism, infrastructure things like D. The Patriot ACT, which Chauvelin hated, homeland security. I went straight right which, which got every, which got departments and bureau speed to each other, all sorts of restrict,
and put on materials. And, of course, all the other serve fighting of of actual cells and and that you know, most of which we were were should have not even privy to abroad, and yeah, so so what you something's referring to are the fact that there is an effort to create a spectacular bomb in Times Square, with the truck that wired, fertilizer accelerant and the bomber in question could not secure a more reliable area because because the Homeless Patriot ACT or some some some act of Congress had basically made it legal to sell over the counter right. He got a lesser fertilizer that didn't run job.
Sport and those laws like that. We're things at civil libertarians hated. They services predict, we can't buy whatever nail polish move. We can't be. You know all these serve. Can then these constant infiltration of these small cells, the lock a lot of six there were held their bourbon about ten or fifteen of them. Some away a civil libertarians argued the cells, were created basically by the FBI to to trap, to attract people. Who wanted to be jihadist so and then the thick successes since nine eleven are some of them are served: oddities right, the we have the baby one being the Boston Marathon bombing, which were so that's that those dead at a terrible incident, but it's two brothers and you know two brothers who were american citizens, making it very hard to try to do anything.
Against them, because they have all of which they have every civil right than any other citizen ass. Yet no it's unlike the aims for multi nation coordination involved in around its attack on it. So it's all up and put part of. What's also going on is Miss Thorpe was touch him before he sat down. Was that their there, the nerves of allocation of jihadist resource, is over past years, devoted to building up the these pseudo caliphate. For ISIS, Do it right. So people were literally moving to Syria to fight the glorious war and mostly from Europe. So you had this. Basically, removal of potential jihadists from Europe into what what I referred to as like the spanish civil war for the jihad, like her Europeans, going to going to fight the glorious fight in the
land that would you know, or the Crusades might, even and and also, if you think about it. I serve just occurred to me now. What were sort of in an interregnum in terms of their lacking charismatic leadership. Among jihadists. I mean Bin Laden was the sort of guru of let's, let's attack the great Satan. Then I'll back daddy was you know what was the driving force behind? It Ices Isis building there, though the caliphate historic dimmed, because because they ve been comes significantly head, I'm so their sort of their there's this disease- sort of directionless ness slightly aside from the grand Coptic to Jihad. Ok, let me let me let me let me offer this is a proposition. Is we're talking that we had a weirdness during the Obama years of a press,
an administration that was your rationally almost incoherently resistant to the notion of saying when there was a terrorist attack that it was a terrorist attack right. We have major a doll at Fort Hood who we were told would sooner disturbed her this or that there was, of course, the famous refusal to name oh Mamma, to in the bomber of the pulse disco in Orlando. As a jihadist and the couple in San Bernardino and this kind of weird gas lighting affected, it seem to have whereby the decision seems to have been made now to say that these go, because that would help them or would be some or or was going to interfere with the Obama administration narrative. The terrorism have largely been extirpate now that we have an administration that accepts the danger of of jihad there, no counter narrative. There is no no one's gonna see, there's no one to stand up and say this is,
jihad or we shouldn't college hotter, its Islamophobia technology hot and so, odd way than the the I gone crazy, wise and the President's saying this is an act of terror on american soil, is over with so the snow too, of controversy where we're pulling our hair out of the notion that people in wash, Ten aren't you know our are deliberately resisting the truth. I would know a guy. I think that the it has changed a little bit were no longer talking about whether or not the president should collapse of islamic terror, terror, its weather, the president and the government should redouble on terrorism to extend beyond the traditional definition that the FBI uses as a metric by which these at these tactics are used in order to achieve a coherent political end, that is, the definition of the F b I uses in order to charge terrorism, and there is a sort of a grass roots political campaign to get acts of violence and beyond terrorism too.
Within that rubric. Mass shootings and other incidents of of terrorist violence, including the kind that is racist legitimately, racists, like the attack on Charleston, we had a big debate: the Asia, the dug the shooting a parishioners in Charleston Church Black church. We had a big, eight and public sphere about whether or not the f b. I should expand the definition to terror to include that and if we were really a varying in examining the psychology of self preservation, are becoming inured to this. It's not because that terrorism itself Islamic terrorism is receding, although you can make it arguable case, Is there at least that has been effectively neutralised up to now in the United States that these acts of mass violence are increasing, thickly they didn't while we're not begging. You know, while increasing crime way of these acts, mass violence are increasing and their factoring into order are a bit
need to compartmentalize these events, whether its is Mr Mann, shooting or a crazy guy doing a matter. Shooting I think it really enters into your decision making process as to whether you go outside it. Well, it should for policymakers, though, because not that the acts of the individual deranged person who shoots up a school or as workplace aren't horrific and and there are also two policy responses that one can think of and also national symbolic ways to to deal with it. All I mean it's a serious issue. But then there is a movement. That's an organised movement of of religiously motivated jihadism that is backed by certain states, indicate the really the largest messrs state sponsor of terror it flourishes in,
I'm govern spaces across middle in the Middle EAST and in Africa, and it is even though the individual actors, like this Bangladeshi fellow who did the pipe bombing today, may not be in touch directly with the these movements or with these groups. Nevertheless, he's inspired is certainly am. I would bet, as the information comes out, he's plugged into certain chat rooms and networks, and so the two are very distinct, and I think we should make the distinction, and I would go further and say that we shouldn't price in the fact that, maybe, if you go to work, you might get blown up because that's just become a part of the ambience of living in a modern society. Nowadays repeated calls to mind.
Maybe the then french Prime Minister Manuel vows, who, after that horrific niece, attack the truck attack that killed eighty people or some such he said, Anne and its surprising, because I've interviewed vows and he's a serious guy. But at the time in response to that attack, he's a terrorism is just something we have to learn. Live with. That's a serious position that was Barack Obama's to shout rightly body in the guy. I put it is explicitly, but it was his position. I think it's a huge mistake, you, but I'm not saying you price, then I'm saying they lose the real world experience of Americans to think that, after fifty that sixteen years after after nine eleven, and indeed also the quarter century after the first made terrorist attack in the United States. The the first World WAR Et Cetera, bombing and ninety ninety, three that Africans, having lived a quarter century of this, do not feel though their lives are threatened by July
this terrorism on a day to day basis. Now, maybe that's bad, maybe that's good. It just is, and the interesting thing about Noah's description of ever to re, categorize domestic acts of man. Ass or sustain violence directed either with institutions or it you know or email since, or something like that as the equal. Terrorism is largely a pr that is, it was like. Well, everybody hates terrorism and people are taking seriously enough, so the very bad thing should be called terrorism, so that it should get the attention that it deserves. And maybe the honest truth is that you can call a terrorism now and it's I'm gonna have that much effect him to sing. We live here in New York and in there was a guy ploughed his car into a dozen people. And the other eight and a half million people in New York City. So it's almost like Same thing happened by the way in Times Square and it was a drunk you murmured had last year again three or four blocks from here some
ploughed. His car into a bunch of people on forty Threerd Street was and confront a drug, ok, but he was high, he wasn't, he was whom an ideological. So it's like what It happened anyway, you could be in Queens Boulevard in car, could have five people and kill them so This is where you can see the genius of the spectacular attack as a pr move: right that you know the entire world changes as a result of nine eleven. I don't think to Bin Laden's in the It was a mistake and belongs part because it. It at least the forces of hell upon him and ultimately led him to his doom, but it's We focus the world's attention everything and, if you like, say ok do whatever you can and somebody goes off and drives car into a couple of people. It's that can. I have the effect that it should have now. I want to move on because I was thinking that, generally speaking, the countries seems to have.
Moved on from all kinds of emotional responses to mass attacks. The school shooting and ass, the California. On Friday I be approval. So, even though that had happened, We are eight weeks or something like that from the war, Mass shooting in american history outside the Mandalay Bay Hotel We there was a shooter who was dead. We don't know we what we don't really know. Why did we there? The allay the LAS Vegas Police Department? Clearly, screwed up the investigation, they don't Oh when it happened, they don't know who did what they don't know when this guy, art in the Mandalay Hotel wished a Bay hotel was shot. They don't know how the other guard, who was on the floor, disappear then ended up on Ellen Degenerous show they don't know anything and where he doing nothing- and you know there are all sorts of signs that he intended to survive the attack that he had a getaway plan that he destroyed
this computer to cover his tracks. And you know we don't know if you have accomplices, if there are large what the purpose of all this was and yet we moved on? As far as I can tell how many people are like and sickened and desperate won't go to LAS Vegas because their worry, the someone's gonna shoot them outside of a hotel. We haven't heard any of that. It's it's it's so astounding that this remains is huge, miss. We know no more today than we did the day after the show, We know last night we know less because it turns out that there are three different potential timelines for what happened in the hallway. On the thirty second floor, the Mandalay Bay Hotel and nobody, the hotel, says one thing, though, lesson This police departments as another- and there is that there are some other set of raised by a private security, firm that say a third and meanwhile Steve Win, who runs all these other hotels said that they had
A his hotels they put in place a very security protocols precisely to make attacks like this impossible. And that the Mandalay Bay and whatever chain it's part of, had deliberately not done this so This is actually a serious issue about like where you want to stay, what you're hotels, courteous and basically it's not that there's a cover up, but there's no public pressure national. His you know do driven public pressure on the LAS Vegas police or to clear up this mystery and that we now may the worst mass crime trade by an American ever it happened. We know like Remember it just happened and why just move on. We move on. Maybe it's a sign that we're an incredibly I'm serious country and we rather talk about Roy more than talk about. All of this will, because
The news, the and the impact of the shooting is the shooting itself and that's what people were sort of electrified horrified by it was almost as if the but whatever the story was behind, it was sort of less important than the fact that we are a violent country while our or how about this that You know, because the liberal and leftist response to these events is to go to an extreme too very extreme position almost immediately, which is that the problem is gun ownership in the United States and thirty three percent of households in the United States- have a gun in them and you know hundred- and there are two hundred million guns in private hands or three hundred million guns. Are some insane number like that in the notion that you, even if you think that the second member doesn't guarantee, were right up possess firearms that you know going to an abolitionist place,
is. It was a way of saying: there's nothing! That's going to happen, there's nothing that we can do so. There was a moment of let's get rid of these. What was it called that the thing the the bump stocks right, but like Where are the bun stocks, was made fun of bye, bye, abolitionists to think that its justice ridiculous stopgap measure that will have no positive effect. And then there's the enough. Then there are the the the gun rights groups who think that any effort to control guns is not
so. We have also talked about this on the pot cast before, but there is a social media effect in play as well, which is again, we have said it before, but that any event like LAS Vegas, shooting or whatever have have. You immediately becomes a sort of partisan football on Twitter, where you can expect the right, we'll say, thoughts and prayers with the victim. The left will say, but we have what? What good are your thoughts and prayers? If you don't you still, sport at individual rights, ownership or highly restrictive gun laws to are the same thing I mean did not that I haven't participated in these kind of football games, but you know a terrorist attack will happen. The right will say you know: there's pathologies within Islam, the left will say worry about the backlash, and that becomes the sorry at least for those whose
social media, maybe not for other people weren't in on twitter, but certainly not a lot of the conversation gets diffused or channeled into these kinds of essentially symbolic. I dunno football Games agenda, see only the only analogy I can think of and doesn't led to a serious policy response. Maybe there is ensured, policy response in some some of these cases, but worlds exerts like the three sisters to check off play where are they they sit around talking about what they should do next, how they should leave. They should go to Moscow. You know the conversations are all the same forever because and nothing ever advances or a boon. U else movie the exterminating angel words. Twelve people sitting round the dinner table having the same argument that they find they can't leave the room and then they argue about how they can't leave the room and that's their you now moving on to anything that actually matters. Subsumed in the interest of the combat
the meaningless combat. I don't think that's fair because of that at the beginning of this conversation demonstrated that we could leave the room wheeled in when it comes to a radical islamic terrorism. There was an ideology incentive an incentive creating an incentive for people to engage in this kind of violence still exist and it still being combated. But it is being combated effectively and abroad, there is no ideology, you can attack when it comes to crime, and so we have these performative. You know performance arts pieces where we go back and forth over whose more virtuous on the matter of guns, but it has no policy application because there are no policy implications rare, but when that argue, we did get out of the room after nine eleven, because the country, despite all sorts of controversies, involving the efforts made to to make it more to raise the cost of domestic terrorism or be Jihadist, doing terrorism, the United States in the Patriot ACT in the homeland, security ACT in warrantless, wiretapping, and all
These things that caused enormous controversy, including security, theatre which annoyed at the hell out of everybody. Every time you go to an airport nonetheless, at the airports, the cost of doing of trying to sneak through is obviously way too high You know it inconveniences ass and then every every time somebody get high. You see one person got through into the terminal without going through security. So what are they? Do they closed down the entire terminal? Thus, it even more difficult. So what that proves, along with some of these other efforts is the enormous success of the anti too anti terrorism efforts in the United States over the last sixteen years. Something for which nobody, are? We here is our politics broken everything's broken everything is terrible and in fact, even build a blog. You miss
there is Lama phobia. The mayor of New York City has had to say over the last two months to the two events were active. Terror against New York City, and we will. We will make sure that our people are safe. You now, let's see people say bill. Broaden the former police chief of New York said that far from its seeming like this, is all retrial. You know that there were theirs increase in terrorism in New York City there. Three incidents in the last year and two months. So that would suggest that the tar, It is getting more and more attractive for people to give em whether that's because was international seduction being practised on these Americans to get them to give it a shot inside New York City or not. But you so. He has a counter terrorism. Bureau with a thousand people working for it. That's a sign that this, what happened and what
happened here, was taken very seriously and that efforts were made to try to fix it and you make sure that it couldn't happen or you know there was few years after after the war on terrorism should well under way. There was there is talk among there was there was a jihadist Clare. Accoucheur came out with this big doctrine called the wilderness. Though the way that we need to now fight of west. By making short of their homelands uninhabitable by carrying out small opportunistic attacks when and where we can, I do I don't know to what degree that this is a result of their through following that directive, or this all that they can pull off but either way if it's you know, I don't idle unwanted attempt fate. But if that's the, if that's the plan, I think it's sort of not as effective for them.
For that reason there is, as I say, it is a really good book that Jamie courtship reviewed and in one of our recent issues, A french scholar of Islam names will compel who actually lives under he he's quite mild and he's no sort of problem provocateur like Michel, well back, but he still lives under police protection, but anyway, the book is called terror in France and talks about this strategy, which certainly works, I think, could work in european context and and jihadist groups are trying to do at, which is because there are discernible geographically discreet, ghettos in France or in Belgium and in similar place, where Muslims live and where there is a large chunk of unemployed disk. You know this fact
alienated muslim use, that you stage attacks and then the there's, u backlash, happens or a crack down from the from the governor central authorities, and that then turns into a kind of daily parent Ironmonger silent Excel they come down and observed to to encourage the disaffection into a general disaffection such that more jihadi are minted by the crackdown on. Then you have urban combat and race war arrange for that was that was the theory and and I guess I even in Europe still hasn't happened yet, but is enormous and security in Europe, and I can get all the attacks compared to hear accept, or and though I can only think of Orlando, where the mask the casualty count has gone close to some of these big attacks in here in Brussels and Paris will look you know, we are five days from Donald Trump announcement Recognition, american revision of Jerusalem as Israel's capital. We were told before this happened that there
a world wide spasm of violence, the Arabs route would rise, it would be a horror show at a nightmare and Israel would be in flames, and none of it happened, which I think I predicted and others predicted, because of the chain I'll show a lesser degree, way lesser do I mean- when the intifada was going on? There were five million errors in the streets of the capitals of Europe wide it's important to make that point, because people don't remember what the intifada is where like and what they see some. You know very tight shot of some clashes in Bethlehem and one listen, killed security check point, and I think this is therefore the opera. But I want to make this point about terror, the terrorists, as a as a tool of war and a method of waging ideological and practical war, one of them we don't have it here, and one of the reasons that it was extirpate was extirpated Israel, as a result of a on
popular, worldwide unpopular but necessary decision, which is that that country- end of terrorism that we terrorism that we saw in the second intifada that broke out in two thousand and one and through two thousand and three wasn't spy tame. Yes, it was designed, it was a deliberate. The Palestinian Authority was the effect of government in the West Bank, and they created bomb factories, they they protected them, troops and tanks. They they recruited people they taught them: how to use these suicide belts they pay them full of ecstasy, and they said aunt em into the streets of Jerusalem in various places in Israel, and for seven hundred and fifty different bomb attacks in sight, Israel from two thousand one to two thousand three, we We don't have this in the United States, because there
snow, centralized authority. There was no place, no bomb factories. There are no structures. There are no organized and deliberate organizations that are attempting to foment this. That can give the training that people need to do this and we should further back pat on when it comes to the Jerusalem decision, because what we predicted would happen. The muslim world did not Iraq because the wasn't world cannot afford to have the muslim world erupt. The arab spring governments are very afraid of their own, their own population, they don't allow these spontaneous demonstrations on the street where they did occur. There were no it by no more spontaneous. There was tremendous dreamer flyer right in Gaza between Gaza and is israeli air forces that was very limited and where we did see an uprising that was spontaneous was in Europe where you radicalized muslim populations that really don't have the fear of their government and can exact prevent available. But even there even their. These were small scale
Maybe maybe it'll get worse, maybe just maybe a plan, but I think a definition of selection contained it's like a supermarket afghan in Amsterdam. It was theirs, does a synagogue in in Gothenburg and Sweden. My point is that even turkey, even air, to one who said that this was you know not as amended, they ve enemies, and this is Hitler and all of that everyone who is now essentially the dictator of Turkey, cannot have word to allow there to be demonstrations in the streets because he still worried about a coup. He had fifteen thousand people arrested six months ago fifty more than a hundred thousand seriously thousand people arrested, so all of their families are sitting there with their family people in jail under no charge. You know potentially as possible. You know people involved in a coup. He can't let there be
considerations in history he doesn't know. What's gonna happen, there was a demonstration asset of the American Embassy in Ankara right about how much yet, but was like twenty people work for the government. I mean that's what I'm saying: it's not you know let loose the passions of the people loose. There were a million people in Tahrir Square in two thousand and to supporting the intifada, you figure you're, gonna, wow anyway, Ever again to gather into use twitter, its giving happen. That's exactly the point that we made on the last podcast. So my point is that a terror for terrorism to work it actually needs and infrastructure. This is, of course, why this is the radical opposite of risk of of these horrible individual psychopathic events like school shootings with work precisely because there is no infrastructure, because random nature of it, makes it impossible to you now introduced beforehand, it's one crazy person following along
his own internal plot and are civil liberties, make it impossible, sort has just drawn on a piece of paper, the most remarkable. It's like a global map, and it's actually. Pretty good. It's very its I was left due to their yet, but the doodling my doodling is like I draw boxes and hearts and he's just drawn a global map of the world on a piece of paper. So maybe having seen this, we should move. I just educational S, just put a cap on what you think as it is. Currently it's a fascinating idea that, because muslim polities responded to authoritarianism and ridden Goodwin tried to throw it off, that actually ended up hurting the terrorist infrastructure. Yeah, I mean that's. That was a sort of it only the right. These governments that we're supportive said ok or directly of this kind of event. Worse laughter,
they did so in a weird wage, justifies this freedom agenda to toss us left, Argo or there's a gun to their had at length, rather like the kingdom, Saudi Arabia, which made a lot of uncomfortable decisions at the basically barrel point kings, I reveals was announced today would allow the opening a movie theatres for the first time in thirty five years, along with driving and limited civil rights for women, one could argue. That the liberalization of that society following hard to pay, some harm had been Solomons international job, local activities where we're seeing here, as I think we will set out a couple months ago- is a potential building of a populist base to support them, changes in Saudi Arabia if he is actually liberalizing giving The visual size are right to say, go to move. He drive a car, get a job. All of that stuff. We can have a real. You know he he he is. That would be the first Saudi liberated leader to try to build a base of support.
The people, I think that's the future of reform in the muslim world, and it's not democracy, its authoritarian liberalism, and what browser authoritarian liberalism in the Far EAST. That was how you know in the in the late fifties early sixties was was what happened in Taiwan Habit in South Korea? What happened? poor was this notion that there is no political freedom, but there was a kind the freedom of personal action that Hong Kong alike, that were people, could actually do things and go out and make him we now early being, and you just gotta hold it together, though, in the short run tried that model and if I may need less than seven years, which is in the policy dynasty, so it said wait, no not seventy years, fifty years or so, but nevertheless that's it. That's a long time in the middle
So if you can hold it together, but them, but then you raise loaded limited. You just have to look at how we can no longer say that these sacrifices are worth it for a low interest loans. Her when I just how you just have to be willing to crack down below router they from time to time lags easy. Well policy. Did that and you didn't write well yet again at the end. At the end, he didn't. I see one last get hurt you inside he whence often- and it sounds terrible to say, went off because we're talking about terrible things that are done to crack down. But let me add that in Ireland on people's backs and now awful torture and all that about, but in the end the iranian people then fell pray for now, with far more years, our work here, thirty nine years to the to the horrors of the Rule of the mullahs always always take the autocrat over the ideological to help ok. Well, here we go so now. That's the big question: should we
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Roy more and dug Jones. We have pulls out in the last twelve hours, one with Roy more up nine one this morning from Fox NEWS with with Doug Jones, the Democratic up ten from Fox NEWS, which will people say, foxes, independent polling argument has a pulse, has appalling arm, and you know I'll go Fox news. Even Fox NEWS has Jones up. This is a very big news. Well I mean if their independent pollsters may follow the rules appalling there may find results that don't agree with the Fox news. Editorial Husky, nays at democratic and republican pulsar together right this is a very so basically, I think it's fair to say that though conventional wisdom has had it now for a couple of days, if not longer
that more has it in the bag. Work should not. It should not be viewed that bore has its election in the back Noah. We were discussing the question of what outside forces are what effect outside we are having in this race and particularly whether or not the behaviour. The mainstream media is recounting to help me or whether it is simply trying to tell people the truth His best might be on that, then the cod In other words, the tempest, I suppose the shore has to do with some mainstream media reporting that is overly zealous and and irrespective of the facts, goes out
promotes and a narrative, or this new development that is usually unfavourable towards more people who make. This point say that all these mistakes cut one direction, which is valid point, but they are doing so with in suggesting that this is the result of mainstream media being he trump Anti, more and reflexively so and answers as a result are getting things wrong and therefore of more wins. They need only have the mainstream media to blame. That something that is active narrative to people who were tackling the media and attacking the Trump forces well before any of these It's happened. We go through them individually, but I honestly don't think it's relevant, because this is a narrative that has been supported long before any of these accusations ever came out and in the Washington Post about remorse penchant for allegedly dating team. It was when he was a thirty year old district attorney. We were talking about run, whereas a unfit candidate for high office,
Before these allegations came out and those who supported him said that, well, you know his antipathy towards Muslims in Congress and his refusal to abide by it the constitution when he was an hour constitutional officer in Alabama, has everything to do with the culture he's fighting culture. Wars in theirs A pervasive bias and on the coasts that suggests that we have to bear down to the to the to the mores that are universal in the coasts, among liberal Republicans, Democrats alike in these bastions of cultural Don. And so the narrative keeps changing as to why we should support were Roy more, but the bottom line is we're going to support rural more. It doesn't really matter what the events are. So we can talk about Gloria already. Having ruined yet another thing that she touches. She has a tendency to destroy all that she comes near. See and ends. Mistake today were yesterday, which had to do with the the rush investigation, the aid,
see news report that was erroneous, these our media flaws and they should be a more penitent when these sorts of things happened, they sort of bristle with The nation, when they're called to the you know out for for making mistakes, which a bad way to go about things. But I honestly gets irrelevant when it has to do with supporting role more. The people who support re more would support room support. Roy more in the absence of these media mistakes. They just don't allow them a convenient way to justify their support. Okay, so I'm gonna totally fire back at you here, because part of the point here is that much clearly is pulling badly for a Republican in Alabama right. First of all, he has a history of under performing in Alabama. Elections. He got fifty two percent and twenty twelve when Romney got sixty three percent when winning an election but very narrowly. So he wildly under performed he's already controversial with Republicans that's and republican leaning. Voters that's what's indicator
by day data like that. Similarly, even if he is leaving in this race, he is pulling in the forties, not in the fifties, and that itself is a mark, if you think of him as the incumbent, because he is the republic in the generic Republican, should be the generic Democrat in now. By fifteen points. He is so wildly and performing that he is a weak candidate for a Republican. So here's the issue with him being weak and his opponent, winning it isn't. There are not enough Democrats and democratic cleaners in Alabama four Doug Jones to win, which, if there's a hundred percent turnout among those people, he still loses, or
if there's honour percent, but if even others of extremely high turnout, he still loses its not enough Republicans who don't like more have to stay home. That is, and the idea here is, if you throw give them ten thousand different reasons not to stay home. Maybe they'll go out and vote for more anyway, and those ten thousand reasons can be all kinds of reasons. It can be glory all red doctoring the yearbook. Talk during the year Booker, while the right and the negative, but that didn't happen, Somebody wrote. The other day down late ass. She wrote it ok, well worm, maybe under glory already instructions who knows. Ok, we're always and it was all Brady. So she lied about it, doesn't matter so common glory, all read, it can be that I think
you just said it doesn't matter now, our absolutely rambling involved in the story release this. Aha, you know gotcha moment having details of it doesn't matter Europe, stake in no other point, is that the story comes out. You yourself said glory already ruins everything that it that she touches socially is that. So that's one data point that can be thrown at people who might otherwise stay home. Who will say well, I'm being manipulated by this feminist lawyer from LOS Angeles, I'm not going Let that happen. You know what for more anyway or stories in the media that the media have to apologize for and the more Pain line is that every thing about him was being invented by the mainstream media, and if there are three back mistakes in the last four days by the mainstream media and worse You can't believe anything there saying about me if enough people who would
have stayed home here that and say you know what the vote for more anyway, because the other team is really bad. Look that's wrong! That's wrong. I said I'm not saying you're wrong. They're. Logically, I'm also saying you're wrong. They're morally are utterly annihilation of moral home. I think it's utterly objectionable for that even be a justification for putting somebody's vote at their wallets, understandable. It's also abhorrent together to be it may or may not be abhorrent. I'm not talking about what is important, but we are now too, talking about and elect a moment in time, when P, Billina given place go to the polls, and the sole point of an election is for one person in the election to get fifty point, o o o o o one percent of the vote and the other guy its forty nine point, nine, nine, nine, nine, nine nine percent of the vote and he loose then the other guy winds and the classic way that you do that one of the classical so you do that in a race like this is by the press,
seeing the turn out of the guy who ends up with the lesser vote, and that was the fact was supposed to be the effect of the whip, that more molested story, it was having that effect and certain dances change? I'm not I'm not talking about this is a moral frame. I'm talking this about Trump decide to get involved? You know the conservative media that we're trying to keep their hands clean of this and various people in conservative circles, I Kelleam Conway and Vanka tromp, and all this saying, if he did it, should never. You know, there's no excuse for this kind of behaviour and triumphant We have some Ngos there, whatever you know a trumpet have a position on whether or not more did it. By the way, he's just saying I need his vote because who was- two moralized anybody right now. You know
this morning there are women that Trump who make credible allegations of Trump Molly. Still the him who are you know like giving press conferences this morning, so he's in no position to make a moral case he's just sing Doug. It'll be a puppet of Schuman Pelosi. I need is vote. I need and worse vote vote for him and all this is a way of trying to get justice. Four publicans and repair leaders who might I have said, I can't drive half an hour and then park and then stem online to push the button for this guy I it's too sick aiming to I'm gonna. Do it because better for my country. If I do it, then if I don't know it's better for my state or I'm gonna send a message to those bastards or something like that ain't. I think it's tremendously important and I think that, to the extent that populists and the anti establishment figures can turn every election presidential election
special actions into some sort of referendum on the media. On the culture and on the on the establishment. In the end it sort of Vienna largest sense it it it benefits. And and theirs and there's a dozen does a cumulative effect here. Where that this rule that things will get point where this rolling through every new cycle and crediting media that that that will work whenever they can lose a lot of other ways and they are losing the lot of large ways, but I think that's real. I hate it I don't know a bit, I agree and- and I think it's setting aside it immediate raised. I would also say that there is a moral and professional responsibility as far as the media is concerned, always and I'm an enemy people like us, world opinion journalists, but people who put themselves forward a straight news. Reporters there is always responsibility, but especially when you're dealing with the character like tromp, who is so loose whose loose with
the truth and will say anything and the champion like characters whom I have denounced them in a week, but nevertheless has a responsibility to to slow down, and What I see sometimes onto especially and behaviour of straight news, reporters and I've been on the other side of the kind of the news editorial the violent newspaper rising straight news. Reporters who behave on Twitter, it's on you just can see you feel their emotion that they think they have a sense of mission. I don't know what that, the mission is to to defeat Trump, maybe they wouldn't go so far, but they think, as soon as you know, has something as contradicts me. None of it contradicts me you're saying that. Ok, though the media did bad things and they should be responsible for it. I agree, but then in the next breath they use it. Just as I also agree that any time they can use this populist narrative and anti leaders narrative too, to justify it,
of campaign, they will do so of course, and they did so in the absence of these allegations in the world before these allegations came out in the Washington Post you, at the same effort by the same people, making the same arguments against the girl both Roy more as a vote against the elite, is establishment who hate the ten commandments and love gay marriage. It would be anything in the absence of these attacks on room more as a feeble file. He would tat would be running the exact same campaign against the the establishment in Washington in the small right I'd hate him. It change it doesn't matter what the allegations are. They would justify use justification to support Roy more. In the absence of all this, the ugly they won't matter, they would accept the allegations and yet, although in yes, the pressure be more responsible but its and it's all utterly beside the point to make this about the press, people want to make it about the press because they have a pre existing bias against the press, which is not entirely unjustified, and I shared it for quite some time. The notion
a bias against oppression support you in becoming a bad human being is where I get off. The boat will, of course, but by this is that I'm being diagnostic and Europe being hortatory, so that's, fine words or we're not really arguing. Now we're talking to different levels. Do I agree with you that a vote for Roy more by the way Roy more as a senator on Wednesday morning. This will be a very bad day for America and it will say very bad. Things about the Republican Party will say very bad things about Donald Trump effect on the pole, It will say very bad things about where we're going. I will be extremely depressed. I want to make that very clear. This is a horrible thing happening and it will be, it would have been a horrible thing happening absent any of these allegations. This is a man who thinks That you now
Sharia LAW is being practised in Illinois. That Muslim shouldn't be allowed to run for office, that homosexuals shouldn't be allowed to run. All legal means an annex, birthing ride, fights with people who are more supporters about the nature of out of judicial supremacy and why we should be supporting a guy who's, judicial supremacist on the conservative side, red okay, so I so I'm saying that, on the grounds it here is the problem Abe. Where I disagree with you is, I don't think it's working towards the attack, on the media that described them, is not working in general, its working very specifically on a third of the population who are being trained, who have who and a ready made pretty opposition to believing that what they were being told by the media was by and large false who are now being rigorously trained in the notion that there is nothing that can be said and nothing that can be reported that isn't false, ok, that so at its not everybody trumpet
still in the MID thirties and approval, and that is most disliked apology in the history of the presidency at this point this presidency, but for the poor bull who are, but we thought of as the backbone of here society in some way shapes and forms, we are in a we are finding ourselves in a position in which, if they, if they said it, was day in terms that it was night, they might be think that maybe it wasn't really day and therefore Though that is trumps responsibility and his alt on the truth and fact is trumps responsibility. It is there possibility of the media not to hand him ammunition. Hand him the ability to make that case easier for their own sake and for the sake of the country that some of them seem to profess to be well to save and when they are called on it,
I see them, was called on in this case of whether or not Donald Trump Junior had been handed information. Wikileaks a week earlier than it was released publicly for it. It turned out that if he had been handed information the day after it was released publicly, four CNN them. On Sunday morning on its own press, criticism show to feature to press witness, include my friend David from arguing that the has done a great job so far and that, in fact, at the errors that the press makes against Trump are a sign of how you, The press is willing to learn from its own mistakes and, as they should be viewed as a strength, not a weakness, Brian Spelter, the host of the show saying you know this was really a teachable moment both for the press and for viewers and readers. We assign teachable moments to our readers, and our view, like teachable moment, is what you are,
only person who needs a teachable moment for making a mistake is CNN for not like. Temporizing and making excuses for its own horrific blunder. A blunder by the way that this is the point like they get all hysterical excited and they think they ve got the thing that maybe we'll get Trump. Finally right, they have a week, they get there Wikileaks Duffel, we girly his Sunday. That means that they have knowledge, knowledge or thought they were engaged the conspiracy with Wikileaks. They had reasons this stuff was stolen, impeach peach removed from office everybody gets arrested and gets thrown out of office will know what, if a story is too good to be true, it p globally is if something like that was was down and was Mueller would have indicted Donald Trump Junior. He would have leaked out. Falsely two of all, the tortures of the trunk thereof. Forcing me to defend the press is perhaps the worst
because it is being conflated with some sort of systemic problem in media win, as those CNN never punishes its own, when it makes mistakes and yes it does it neutral neutralised, an entire unit for months that's all, I know a couple of people on their who were on the bench for quite a long time, because they made a mistake. They do self police and when we're talking about good reporting, you all you have to do is look around you. In the era of the quantum quote me to campaign, and we have seen some extraordinarily thorough, very close, reporting very well sword supported reporting from mainstream media outlets and it goes across the gamma than any of the attacks liberals as much as it does conservative, probably more so. This is absolutely true. That is- and I am not saying this because I love to defend the press- him saying this, because the people who are making these accusations in order to discredit the press do so for the political purpose, of defending Donald Trump and defending growing more, and it is all entirely and
lately a political motive and not about good report. Ok, also true, so I wanted. I want to set up a divide here. Ok, we talked about this before the show when the press is working on what are often called enterprise stories. That means they are not deadline base stories. They are stories with that our research, and sword and multiply sourced, unlike nailed down hard, because it is their authoritative and definitive nature that makes them important in this case for the purpose of this case were wearing it? We would you say both the road and Pharaoh story in the New Yorker about Harvey Weinstein's and the story about Roy more in the Washington Post about the seven women accusing him of interested them before they attain their majority right. So these are two stories that the organizations that sponsor them and the reporters who did them were incredibly responsible of nails.
Down that dates times. Fact every fact that could be demonstrated sore sings, double sourcing. All of that those are her prize stories, and it was its understood in this era that those stories have to be air tight, imperfect because of this assault that waged against them by these enemies of fact and truth right, Then you have deadline based stories that, where there is a highly competitive atms that's the russian investigation, that's Roy more that some other things Roy more after Washington Post stories and there it is clear that the hunger to be first and the hunger to get yourself out on Twitter at with the big story or to get yourself a special report on the news, is dry, seducing people into outright error on increase.
Doubly delicate and sensitive subjects like matters involving the potential impeachment of the president, where they should be circumspect and careful in the old days, the old days before social media, the old days before the internet, as I think I've talked about here before when a new story broke at ten o clock in the morning, you ten hours until the paper closed or twelve hours. Until the paper closed to get all the facts and the details right, because it wasn't gonna, be issued in any other venue or forum and you even waited there too. If it was your own story, because no one was gonna jump on it and, if a people, the bulletin, it moved said nineteen corrections of the bullet and over the course of the day as it build facts and correct. Things. We all know if you follow social media, that when there is a breaking event, have to things that were going to read on it are going to turn out to be false, but where
fashionables. We understand that we have now taken that in our stride. That is clearly not the case with the with with most people who are going to believe the first thing they see and they're, not watching social media every day, and so the problem here. Is that this atmosphere makes it in notably incumbent upon fanciful media organisations not to do what Prime Rostov ABC did and released false information about how, Michael Flynn was prepared to testify that Donald Trump had ordered him to conspire with the Russians during the presidential campaign again a detail which would have led to an immediate indictment em up special port from color and the potential impeachment of the president. If a story looks too good, it is it's yours alone and
you have it alone. You are not going to impeach the president based on one story: slow down, don't be an idiot, don't hand ammunition to the people who are to discredit you it's like strategy, one a one for a business that is in wild. Decline. The news, businesses and terrible decline newspapers are going under news channels and television, news divisions are indeed add, shape not in good shape. This is this is simply the truth of it. Ok, end of my rant and we it's the hour, so I think we are we better out, we better call a halt here. I apologise for my. I am getting under way it's a sandbox, sandbox soap box so box, so
poor absorb is now getting ill from from my pompous and so forth, Arbour married no harassment and Amory Wild. I'm John passwords keep the camel burning.
Transcript generated on 2019-12-12.