Welcome to the commentary magazine podcast today is Monday January eighth, twenty eighteen, I've jump, nor is the editor of commentary, amazing, the seventy three old monthly of intellectual analysis, political probity and cultural criticism from a conservative perspective I invite you to join us Terry magazine, dot com, where we give you a few free reason and asking to subscribe. One thousand nine hundred and ninety five for digital subscription, two thousand nine hundred and ninety five front all access subscription, including our beautiful, three magazine in your mailbox eleven times a year with me is always a green. While their senior editor hello, Abe, high John, no,

when our associated or high. Now I gone and Senor Writer Sore Amari High Sorra hijacked so we're. Gonna talk talk about Michael Wolf in his book and the book about how Trump is a baby and he's crazy and uneasy these senile and that's the ban and blew the whistle on everybody and said that the Donald Trump Junior would be cracked open, like an good, bye, Mahler and he must have brought Russians to meet Trump and the entire administration is now over with, except for the fact that Michael Wolf is a slippery disreputable character of the book to which I have read features wild assertions alongside obviously, first person reporting you're gonna, which is which What is what you can't tell what's true from what Sir You know a rumour and their bunch of facts wrong. Nonetheless, the book is gonna, sell three million copies and has now hardened and cemented

portrait of the at least the first eight months of the Trump administration as being a. Chaos, storm of Michael. A bomb Cyclops of that of of of horror, centering around and politic the amateurish staff dealing with political amateur as President whom they did not know. I didn't know please and didn't know how to deal with the fact that he has no real interest in the truth or in fact, and is more interested in assertions and personal pride and personal dignity and slavishness, and all that ok, so a green wild. I don't think you ve read the book. I have not, but you have seen some of the blow back, including of course presidential aid.

Stephen Miller's rather jawdropping performance and Jake TAT merci and then show yesterday. Where do you were? What do you make of all this was as jesting report. We started in watching the Miller Tapir segment. It struck me that we're we're getting very close to those clips that sometimes around social media. Were you see likes her Middle eastern talk shows or or eastern european talk shows with. Politicians in their critics on where things are rubbed into sort of overturned tables and veto foot thrown coffee bugs, and all that where this was it with this wasn't quite there, but it was, but it was even somewhere in it in a similar neighbourhood. It it's all very bizarre in fighting and if any of you think the way, to refute the the portrait a slavish white house to have is go on,

onto it CNN and then so to speak. It's from in imperfect, trompe in dial act trompe in defence of Trump as a genius, clearly Miller's perform. Its intended to please trump Europe your sorting mistaken it in his going out there and and defending the book exactly the serbian and desk during the book in exactly way. Trump would want him to secure the book and defend Trump he sort of makes, the portrait port that that that Wolf rendered see all the more accurate it. What was striking in the in the Miller? interview was the answer.

That he may that were clearly pre planned, said the assertions? Were it not only the he's, a genius which is fine, so Trump himself said he was a genius Saturday morning. This was taken with life Sunday morning, but that what he was aside from the fact that he was a person, who won the presidential election on thought, he would win, which is the assertion of a certain kind of genius, for that seems to me to be arguable. I mean that it's a point you can make that somebody who scores the most unlikely political victory in two hundred. You know thirty years of american elections, you know deserves some credit for at least some kind of savagery. But then he was also. His genius was proved by the fact that he was ACE self made billionaire. Who revolutionized reality, television now we ourselves, as a matter of course, started

it came into existence, as we understand answer like one thousand nine hundred and ninety four one thousand nine hundred and eighty three with the show the real world on MTV? Then it took off on network television in the year two thousand with survivor Trump came on the year. Two thousand for with the apprentice now, really means that I'm network television, it has been around for four years, and so I don't really think revolutionizing reality tv as a form constitutes thee transformational? It only to only a only serve something clay cloudlike to assert This is some kind of transformational event marking genius. This is sort of the price of admission for, being in trumps orbit. Is you got to do the work? You are doing in government, but you have to engage in a sequence displays of sycophantic and some people are but more willing

to subject themselves to that than others, and it's always pre planned because you're never off the top of your head. Thinking about how we can you know how we have to thank God above Fur, Donald Trump presence, which is what I believe like pens did in These recent also upheld sounds like like a phony. Hence our enjoying an early and John Kelly gives him. There should resign bright, let Kwame killer to be fair, sounds like he means it, and he look. Insane as he says it. I don't know house to describe his parents on the show he looked like a crazy person, so yo. He may be the best such person, It is here that just talking the talk like he's drunk the Kool aid M is the road. You know it is the robot I'll pick up where, where I left off Yes, MA am maybe I'll get into trouble further for saying that careful stop with the heat

Yet there was that there was an article will settings in the new Yorker or Harper, where a in nineteen forties, legendary. I say I've. I've read about Norma, who wrote it where you know that it is the either goes around the room at the social gathering and trying to figure out like who, among these various accomplished, men would become a nazi if there was a sort of knots take over in the? U S wish with pillar and again, unless I am of his ideology, but just his temperament is the temperament have a sort of authoritarian, crazy fanatic I mean just his it. You just watch it. The weird body, language, the bulging eyes, and we discuss it he's central casting for a kind of authoritarian propagandist and it's it's really terrifying, but

But I guess I don't know I'm asking them sensing a federalist pieces coming down come and I guess a federalist missile, I'm no one right down your throat sore. I guess I'm not saying about his their policies. I dont believe, and I really don't. I think I think much The illiberal aspects of the trumpet nutrition has so far just been bluster and not much more but just in the manner of some of the more fanatical aids. The way they carry themselves is well. What I will say is aside whether its there is it's weird wait up, this. But there is something on American, I don't you mean anti American Mean Unrepealed, not american, about this kind of obeisance to

leader not believe me, I have written to books about white houses. White houses are all culture personality, there's no doubt about it. People in them come to worship the guy that they work, for. That is simply what weird about the trumpet ministration actually put, particularly if you believe half of what's in the Michael Wolf Book is how little of that has happened in the Trump White House. How much the people who work for him do not have not come to an almost worship, in view of Heaven that Miller, you now is a little odd differently. Not perhaps that's why you're aware of it has itself with such a contrive about? What's not american about it. Is that you, of course, support and say you make the case for the guy that you work for, but you do it in an understated way, with the the system that we are all citizens and that we are all. You know that you're talking about somebody who live a building that is not called the presidential palace but is called the White House.

There is a reason that we call the presidents residents in his in his office, building the White House we claim that we only call the president, Mr President, is to erection erosion, restaurant effect. There's there's one small sort of morsel of of Semi NEWS, though that came out of the Miller appearance, which is that regarding Steve abandons assertion that there is no way that dog. Junior didn't march. The rub. The those Russians who met with the campaign because they at dirt on Hilary is banned, said: there's no way that they did, that that that they work marched up to meet drums himself right, exactly two meters himself, Jake Tapir asked Miller about that. And Miller Miller merely said. I have no information about that meeting which, factually I guess

would be the case, but it was not until now he did not say absolutely not they. They did not heed. They did not dare to the present never met with them and so on. I think that's interesting. I think that's talent where I mean he did say that ban and wasn't there and that he wasn't there. So the simple fact that matter resume. No, then nobody was talking about and he was serving something that, but it was also talking about the way that the that the Trump kids interact with Trump when in fact ban and had even been there until August, but put it but it. But it's it's bull, it's possible Is it that that this could have been discussed? Smelt NATO? If, if it is the case that that happened, then a lot than a bunch of people are going to jail because because Donald Trump Junior said he stopped paying attention in the course of the meeting man afford said that he will do me. Remember the meeting stuff like that. If, if their, if there was an actual, you know marching up

shake hands with the big guy. You know on that date. Then. Then their people were lemon lying to tell its committees and primarily lying to Mahler, and they will they will go to jail for perjury if, if it can be proved, which is why I served on area here, is that they took a meeting with the Kremlin cut out seeking information on Hillary Clinton in the trunk tower in the conference room feet. From Donald Trump and said nothing at all to Donald Trump, about this meeting. That's what the story we're supposed to believe I know, but No, honestly, if that story is false, if it's not true and the alarming right. Well, people are gonna go to jail. I mean you know, that's why I sort of believe that its, I don't think people people do not lie unreservedly, undergrowth without

hence a real terror about it like they could have said yeah well, we took that things are moving around the world would lighter under oath without observing tramp. Well, you rumbled tongue. That's the news today is that there are seeking. There is attorneys, are seeking Nbc news are seeking ways to make sure there clay it doesn't have to sit down and any standard setting in which he is under oath and speak with the rub Miller. He doesn't have to sit down and speak of robbery or There is no, there is no understanding of the U S constitution and which Trump would be obliged to could not assert executive authority to refuse to sit down and speak to Mueller or to Congress or Ebay like that, that's a simple fact: Clinton did it with can a star on his own by an brilliantly since he,

figured out how to say how to speak, to get a star in a way that would do that with escaped the perjury trapped in canister restrained set with it, which is the reason that he spoke. The incredible sends Bill Clinton did that depends on what the meaning of is is because assertion the question that was being asked of him. If he answered in the affirmative or in the negative, he would be perch himself and when he said well, it depends on what the meaning of the word has had escaped the perjury trap. It was in totally arbitrary what it was impeached as a result of welcome. It was impeached and he was not convicted. Was he really was aged well. It wasn't commit anyone saying that that anyway,

My point is that it was because he did not ignore. Forget it so just to go on. I think the point about Wolf's book is this, which is, I want to propose, to you guys, a tripartite theory, the Wolf book, but offers the portrait of Trump that has been peddled or laser, like laid out quite systematically have to say by damned reserve the wash imposed now for a year which, as you know, that his his staff believes and treat them like he's a toddler, Writin Dresdner now has two hundred examples. I think of quotes from articles that essentially assert this over and over and over and over again. So trumps a child. That's wall sees a child, he's got the impulses which has had no filter he's got. No, you know we can do here

both marshmallows, never anything you can say right, that's one! So he's a toddler portrait number two is that he's crazy either crazy, because he's a lunatic scollops as to who is crazy or because he has early onset dementia and then Portrait three is that he is a monstrous tyrannical kleptocratic. Who wants to use the presidency to enrich himself and his family? Why I'll eliminating civil liberties for Americans and destroying the Americas position the world something that's it. You ve got childish Craig the an evil. Now my view is, if you are somebody who,

on stomach a serious case against trump that you are working across purposes to argue all three, you gotta pick one or two. Each one is incredibly debt. Any one of the three is incredibly damaging all three at once contradict each other in some sense and and make it hard to make a unified field case for why? If this is what you want trump, could be removed early from off see. I should think that it is as a matter of describing reality. I think all three ones are actually possible, but I agree that making the case for four seasoning all three once dilutes, as you said earlier, dilutes the b b overall case against tromp, because your yours you're you're, you're, spreading your energy or among all three narratives. I think the absurd that the idea that he's an infant

he's an absurd figure, I think, is the sort of the easiest to demonstrate, but in some is the least damaging the least dangerous to lease frightful, the idea that he is a lunatic or were a fog and an autocratic thug. Those are or damaging, but I think harder to to pull off. Ok. So the big talk that this all raises is of the twenty fifth amendment right to the choice of men, which was passed in the mid nineties. Sixties is really viewed as the amendment that dealt with what might have happened had John F Kennedy been incapacitated rather than assassinated, and going back to things that we learn about Woodrow Wilson,

stroke and the fact that basically, his wife was the president for the last nine months of his administration. So, as always talk about how the twenty fourth amendment needs to be invoked as a possibility, I think this is insane because I think it would represent a coup. Let there is intellectually made states. We elect presidents for four years if he can be impeached, have removed from office as a political practice as a political matter that is seen in the constitution is a way in which to deal with the high crimes and misdemeanours are the President Twitter. The member is asserts that, in the case of the presence incapacitation there is a way to temporarily were moved him from the presidency. I'm just want to read this, because I think people are hearing this in its present can do it himself voluntarily can can resign or, like temporarily resigned. It was paralysed present

But here is here's the relevant clause whenever the president, wherever the vice president and a majority of either the principal offers of these active departments or or of other such body, is Congress may by law, provide transmit to the President Protein Party of the Senate and the speaker of the House there written declaration that the President is unable to discharge the powers and duties of his office. The vice presidential immediately assume the powers and duties of the office is acting president meaning. So the principal officers of the executive apartments would be the cabinet or of such other body, as Congress made by law. Provide com

worst can somehow appoint a panel in some fashion. That can do this by passing a law that the president would have to sign, obviously for it to go into law. So that's a weird part. Okay, then, but here's the key thing there. After, when the president, transmits to the president, pro tempore of the Senate and the speaker of the House of Representatives, is written declaration that no inability exists, he shall resume the powers and duties of his office unless the vice president and a majority of either the principal officers of the executive. Such are. The body is Congress Mobile, provide transmit within four days to the present programme of the sun and the speaker of the house. There written declaration, the president is unable to discharge the powers and duties of his office. So president, right,

the Congress and says I'm raider take my powers back at any time and then the vice president and a majority of the cat cabinet has to tell Congress that in their opinion he cannot resume his of his powers in four days after the president's endless thereupon, Congress shall decide the issue assembling, in forty eight hours for that purpose, if not in session, if the Congress within twenty one days or if congresses ancestral within twenty one days after congresses parts were assembled, determines by two thirds vote that the present is unable to discharge the powers news of office. The vice presidential become president so effectively. The twenty Fifth amendment Dodge people are insane to want to pursue this. That the procedure here is

somebody says the President's not ready to take off it can't take office in the vice president. Majority of the officers of the cabinet say he's unfit He write a letter that says I'm fed. They then have Say it again and then Congo Cast a vote, two thirds majority, both how and Senate for him not to We assert reassume assume his powers again. So this is a coup followed by a coup followed by a coup. The process was made deliberately unbelievably difficult, if not impossible, and if it should happen. The fracturing of this of the republic would, I think, be complete our third of Americans who believe that their that the president

removed from office legitimately, who will never not believe Donald Trump had a actual stroke and with actual incapacitated that same one third would believe that has nothing to do with facts on the ground Let's is nothing to do with the capacity of president has identities, that's affair. I have you alluded now. If you know that the presently writes that if the present United States is like lying, you know unable to speak of phasing out and Oh and like a condition, you would never see that and as because you would never see that there will be considered as the vice president, then, under those circumstances, I add that I think is up as I'm talking about the notion of and he is unfit and should be removed from office, but by then say that it has to be for health reasons rise. Just as is he cannot perform. The duties of the presidency the only scenario talking about here is, is comas and so forth. I dont see I see the child

that that were highly airbus or someone could have a complete nervous breakdown should cushy could be like you know, and then the vice presidents is look. We have to do this and you know he'll will he'll get better and then he'll take the we'll take they'll. Take a shovel the fact that he is, he forget someone's name or hee hee. It's a bunch of weird stuff daily than an and rights instead of Gibraltar, syntax on various error there are. There are weird escape fantasies that are being indulged in by serious people who think that, at you now there's some procedure by which this election, whose results they Stan can somehow be undone undone, for twenty twenty, when we a process says yeah. You can undo the results of an election by voting the guy out. So stop with this delusion and vote the guy out. You know

or stop with this delusion and elect enough Democrats to the house in the Senate to impeach him and victim. That's the other, because because, under those conditions we don't know, the constitution. Doesnt define what the high crimes and misdemeanours are, that a president can be impatient. Removed from office were therefore they can be almost anything including jaywalking. Resist this. This ties into the your your three narratives about trumpet mean if, if they want to go with the twenty fifth amendment than they have to go with the crazy narrative from in that's that's, that's that's the only one that that that gets in their body, bread, but and that's it such an inquiry. Longshot that's. What I'm saying that like this is very very serious business going on in the in the United States. There is a person in the presidency. A lot of people think shouldn't we in the presidency. That's nothing new right people, lotta people thought that broccoli Emma was a Muslim. A lot of people thought that George W Bush shouldn't have been president because of big. It was illegitimate because of Florida and all that we have a procedure, it's called him

or can politics he got. Forty six percent of the vote. Democrats of Democrats can get a candidate who can get those hundred thus foods act from those three states that he won in the MID west. Then they get the president's. It's I'm terribly undemocratic. That did it absolutely is, but it's designed to be undemocratic and the constitution. I would like to note that, while I don't think any, this has ever gonna happen, and these are precisely fantasies that people are indulging because they feel good The president is an inspiring quite a bit of confidence when he takes to twitter and tweets out how state same and stable? He is paradoxically, it just as a matter of course, just really sane and stable person and who managed to win the presidency in the first. Try imagine that the guy does project instability, maybe not mental and faint eyes he debility he does. The problem is, as as I've said on here repeatedly. Anything is no

see who voted for him on November eighth, two thousand and sixteen could have been under any illusions about who he was in the person he ran the most in terms of character and personality. He ran the most unfiltered campaign. Anyone has ever run. Donald Trump has done, from after the access Hollywood tape. He brought the Clinton women to the debate. He called Hillary Clinton, a nasty woman said she should go to jail. Oh right, to her face all that. You know he is who he is, and people voted a man end as each on me instead, the american people will get they what they want and they'll get a good and hard. They voted for somebody unstable and they got em and you're not going to remove them from office, because he is the person that he was the day that he was elected? But you know what you can do is you could take a nice nap when you get to, agitated. You can lie down, take a lab, maybe life will be better and my advice, if you want to do that, is to use a Casper Mass

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So here is a special offer. Your listeners of commentary get fifty dollars toward select mattresses by visiting Casper Dotcom, Slash commentary and using promo code commentary check out. That's Casper Dotcom, Slash commentary and use promo code commentary for fifty dollars off. Select mattresses terms and conditions apply. Noah let's talk about the meanwhile, all this nonsense was going on about Michael Wolves book The land and the leaders of the House and Senate, probably a thousand Senate and many members of his cabinet, though not his attorney general, who is not who, with them apparently were not present at Camp David this weekend to discuss the twenty eighteen legislative agenda Do you have some thoughts on this? Ok, so this is the latter to packs a bear with me. We have a retreat over the weekend about immigration and infrastructure will bet Dhaka. Is

As you know, it was a sort of set on the sunset course last year at a six month, He sets coming up I'm very quickly. Dockers is the is the it actually ready for action are children. I came here between eighteen, eighty, one in two thousand and children of of of undocumented the illegal immigrants who were brought here through no fault of their own, who do not have legal status and whose legal status was revoked. By Jeff sessions in September, with the idea that you gotta say you're looking impatient, also an impatient for giving me the wine that scientists, you gotta, say what's going on to people who don't know what it is. So if, if some isn't done by March to grant them some sort of status there. Eight hundred thousand people in America who been living here, since they were children who are going to lose their legal status so Jonah's of mine that they can't simply executive order. This thing back into existence, because the attorney general is explicitly called this unconstitutional, but Donald Trump himself came out

then a couple of days of that announcement and said that this needs to happen and nobody wants a report, these people- and if I have to do something about it, cryptic crypto cryptic. I will do something about it. Now, there's a lot of appetite for getting something big diamond doc on the hill, among Republicans, not just Democrats, so I'm pretty bullish on the prospects for doc. But the president once and ask and eight issued that ask on Friday morning and it consisted of a request for about eighteen billion dollars- funds. For a wall, this is a cave. There will be no wall. Eighteen billion dollars doesn't fund a wall. It would take hundreds of billions of dollars to even get close to what Donald Trump campaigned on. This amounts to refurbishing existing struck there is more border security. Maybe a couple of immigration judges, it's a big for border security and nowhere near the like one point: six billion that was requested in the Bush administration. Huge ask for border security, but a cave on the wall and of Democrats decide

We want a Balkan S because down keep saying what wall then they will be seen. To deprive him of a political victory and not a policy went and that's exactly what's going to happen. This is a great compromise, so it is doomed. Ok. Well, I was u unpacked at beauty. De, I would say- and I suspect that you are right- that there is no way the Democrats will provide a penny or will agree to a pennies worth of. Funding for them all the problems of good governance, raising the problem of trumpets negotiated against himself on Dhaka, because by saying I'm not gonna, let this happen. He has telegraphed to church, Homer and Nancy Policy that they don't have to deal with him. He can go out to the american people and say: look I want to make a deal and they're not letting we make a deal fine there. Say, well, we're not we're not giving you eat a ridiculous amounts made build a border wall that we don't believe in and you get

have to do something and then he'll do something, and then Jeff sessions will resign and then they'll laugh that he is doing an unconscious executive order and relies on violently thing holding us for an absolute chaos in the dissolution of the Mueller Private, whatever who knows anyway, that's so so I think that's a pretty democratic could get a win here if they could prevent themselves from saying down from caved in the law, but it would be malpractice not to say damage done from caved on the wall, but but why is it a cave? If, in fact, really care about the wall? He doesn't care about. Anything in my right will represent that its antics. It's been granted is he's unique figure in that respect. Then it's did it's not really a cave, ok. So this goes back to the whole question of oddly enough of Steve Miller's performance and the wall and the message that he trends minute during the election that got him the forty five percent of the republican electorate that he needed to win the nomination witches.

Everything that Trump does. He is now assured of having thirty five percent of the american people support wherever it is. Ok, that's not enough Thirty, five percent is not enough. Steve Miller's performance will be wildly pleasing to people who are Steve Miller and and bright Bart readers and Trump, and that's all right, but to no one. Else. Similarly, a lot of these policies, the trump you know wishes it will be wildly popular with. His base, including this latest thing, which is the announcement by the Department of Homeland Security, that they are going to revoke the legal staff. Of two hundred thousand salvadorans, most of whom have been in this country for seventeen years following an earthquake in two thousand and one

rather than saying that the policy that allowed these temporary residence to serve stay forever is now going to be a hardened so that henceforth no one coming in can stay from more than twelve months or some other them till there. Some reconstruction but saying that the people who are here will stay, which would seem to be it totally logical that you don't from Ex post facto bill of attainder people who have been here already. You know this has been kicked. The ball has been kicked, you know down, the middle of twenty nineteen on this we're gonna actually watch. Two hundred thousand people serve like trudging spit trudging to airports to get em planes to go too. You know, go to San Salvador. I mean I, oh, I'm sure they'll be some sort of camp it'll, be a nice can Right anyway, I'm just saying like when you think that

through its I get people so talk rail will go. This is great. Fantastic girl sees stick to them. Are these more people who are not particularly ideological are going to see this if it happens or as it happens and feel sorry the people who are being deported trumpeting, to get more supporters. He doesn't need to harden the zone support right now. He should be doing the opposite like he. This is the whole point about having a base of support, which is that you can rely on it and then you can. You can pivot office because they're gonna support you, no matter what you do so there that you know this is where his possible hope with infrastructure lies right, which is infrastructure what he, what their tongue met with infrastructure is such a betrayal of the current day Republican Party, the Tea Party, the dutch government shouldn't spend party that we should sequester money party. The you know, every government programme is bad party, so he's gonna spend a trillion dollars and new spending on infrastructure

you know his because his does IRAN right so that something Democrats like and Republicans don't his base will let him pivot. That way. Banks will allow him to betray the tea party theory of the Republican Party. That's what he can do. That's what his strength with his base would allow. Giving his base what it wants all the time all the time all the time is actually not particularly can do. That is you did he does that's it the base all the time he feeds the base some and then he takes some capital from the bank that he has created with them. If you don't do that, he will not reelected. I mean it's crazy. He the he genuinely. Thinks that being at thirty seven thirty, eight percent approval is ok. I don't know who he is talking to. I don't know what political mines are state now carry more Michael of using talk, database and listen.

Anybody, but it still bonkers from a political perspective, yeah The apparently that the public private partnership thing that they were discussing was with advanced after state of the union speech the foes, the union speech that the president delivered last year, it is not going to work out, so this would be a debt financed proposal and as such, it's dead in the water, but because it something that the president campaigned on. We all have to pretend, like it's gonna happen and that sort of like how present operates and how his supporters operate. We were talking about this before I'm not sure how serious to take this, this order, which echoes in order that was involved, Haitians who came to the United States after the twenty ten earthquake It's it's sort of it burns white hot, when you when it first is is offered in up on the table, and then it's sort of retracted are pushed off and

It wasn't as big a deal as it was initially like. There are some elements of it that are going to be so as not to be implemented as harshly as you initially thought, and then your blamed for reading the story literally and in taking all its details, and repeating them verbatim, as opposed to giving the president some benefit of the doubt, which retroactively he apparently deserted. Who who blame? Who is the one who's blaming you here? According to her, you're the one who's Blizzard Gerard administration. This is administration. Defenders approach to arguing is that you can't you are to be blamed for initially reading the details out of the White House, not reporting, not inaccurate reporting, which occasionally happens, but the details at the White House literally and verbatim and not imposing on them some sort of exculpatory context, but as they are later scaled back, that's been my experts It says that the administration is sort of lives in, like this vague,

ether, which you need any it's only clear in retrospect than if you didn't have that kind of clarity at the time and then you ever to adjust it ill serves them. This is my point, which is that you know if you want trump to succeed. You want him to get a second term, and you want Democrats and liberals to lose. You do not harden along with him in this base and nobody else thing where all the policies that are put in place to please the base are a mathematical or repulsive to the fifteen percent or so people in the middle who might be persuadable on the grounds that, in a look he's present economy is doing well that I don't like that its. But I don't like this by the email. In the end, I guess we his better than the other guy, but if you repelled them constantly with social warfare policy with a culture war policies, you are

have a problem building a coalition that will get you re elected and will save your party from the buzz saw of the mid term elections lemon. I think the trump and the true believers closer to him, don't believe than those numbers on support. I think that they think that these are being bent his it is under- reported its inaccurate. It's it's a rich replay of the election numbers of the campaign numbers that'll I believe I agree with you so so so they don't, they don't see themselves as doing this, you know there's doing damage to their to their prospects, but but that said, I think it in line with what, with what no is saying, this won't come to pass regarding

they also do you can imagine it would just it's not like there will be two hundred thousand may then thou art down the street, and then that was actually my first thought. When I saw the headline in the times I said I'd this, isn't it I don't think it's gonna know could happen, but I don't think it's gonna have. I should. I share Noah's frustration, though, with this mode of trompe an argument, Asia, where the White House puts out something which looks repellent and on american or just kind of crazy, an end of the trumped offenders will say a Don't you know, what is it don't take him? Take him seriously would not literally- or they will defended, F, F, initially drops and noble, defended at first as being necessary policy, then becomes obvious that its toxic and the White House, the back, and then they, those

Well, who defended it as necessary policy? Pivot too, will have our. Why did you even think this is going to happen in the first place? You got trumped arrangements interim also. I think that Trump underestimate and those concerns underestimate the green which Democrats are willing to be cold. Blooded about this, that is to say, Democrats are willing, might be conceivably willing to shoulder a dhaka, ending and end the Dhaka people going into torments of suffering in order to hand them selves, an issue in twenty eight team on the heartlessness and monstrous this of the Trump administration. Similarly, they might want. You know sort of like a boat people, refugee crisis, out of the United States, in the middle of twenty nineteen, to help them in Twenty slash twenty. This is what frustrates me very much about the press corps in the in the Trump era, Donald Trump himself. We didn't take questions very often, but you never hear the the the press secretary asked what this president intends to veto and why

you ve never heard anybody asked about the veto. Panic as Donald Trump is never held to his policy. Prescriptions is policy reference preferences. Nobody believes him when he says he only to raise taxes on The rich and within this tax bill comes. If it doesnt raise taxes on the rich he's, not gonna sign it, nobody believes that nobody knows what Donald Trump would read, how if it was a count, if there was a dark, it's a little, I gotta I got a blow back, serve pushed back and you a little bit because this was set at Vienna. Balmy never vetoed anything, but one of the reasons you never vetoed anything in its first two years offices We had a real democratic Congress now Donald Trump, absolutely Brok. Obama was very clear in the parameters that he would vetoes. I know basically, the president run in the present. It is the most important person in policy. They are not going to send him a bill that he'll veto Republicans Iraq in a sin trumpet building. He will veto that almost never has never almost

what happens in the case of a prize? I would suggest that they wouldn't do that, because there's nothing don't redwood veto. Ok, so we we need to close by talking about last night's golden lobe awards, not because we want to discuss whether through

oh billboards outside ebbing Missouri should, when the Asker over Lady Bird or not, but because, of course of the moment in which over Winfrey accepted the necessity de Mille Ward and gave a thicket, twelve or fourteen minute speech of uncommon power, end and eloquence that ignited yet again the idea that she might be a democratic candidate for president. Now I I don't wanna take victory lap, but I have to I am obliged to buy by the dictates of the fact that there's a guy on Twitter who, who can remember ones, tweets, that's the thing I've written like a hundred and seventy three

some tweets, which is incredibly embarrassing to mention, but there was a guy and he dug up ok tweets on Oprah to find that. I think the first tweet, which I said Oprah should run for president, was in January of twenty sixteen January of twenty. Sixteen, that, if Trump, that Trump indicated that this was a new reality and and that, as a result, you know the Democrats should field Oprah Arrow piece about this in a last September,

an opera retweeted it. So people were like she's, but now her boyfriend's deadened Graham told the valet times that she was thinking about it to people have told brand Celtic CNN that they were thinking about it, that she was thing absolutely thinking about it and guys. What do you think Oprah? Twenty twenty four, the Democrat, I think she would wipe the floor if you have a situation in which loss of demagogy, Democrats, but further heads into the proverbial ring, like I can't imagine in a war in an or even sanders or any of these kind of ultra progressives arising through the sentence Senate, democratic caucus is good to be able to compete with her on the other. The other thought that I have is, if we go from president trumped President Obama I mean Just-

given the seriousness of the American Republic, is dead, we ve become such a celebrity culture. Someone was at resurface the book amusing ourselves to death on on twitter recently any old postman, the air nitrate for book, but after there's some something to the has ever. That was prophetic. That fact why we're going from celebrity to celebrity, I think, Oprah, Unique in in the following way, unlike any other liberal spokesperson someone who speaks out about social justice, the sea issues in an inequality and things of that nature and who does so so forcefully She is also an unapologetic capitalist and the two who, in insurance in her persona, are married, seamlessly. No one false her for that exact. In fact, she celebrated Fort for her

or her success and for her for her to the ideals by the same people. It's it's it the one one one works its way into the other in an absolutely seamless way: she's not faulted at all. That's a really interesting unique place for her to be in that. I think gives her a leg up on any one else in a pre trump world. This would be a dismissal play for headlines, and we wouldn't be taking a very seriously. Regrettably, it is about, from world and we do have to take this relatively seriously and I am still not convinced that we should discuss. This seems like some. Murphy glaring lived enters into it, the eyes, We just prudence demands that we would, but I would say that if Miss Winfrey is the is the guardian of civic decency that she and her so defenders present themselves. To be than she would not run

for the presidency, because she would probably win the presidency, and it is incumbent on somebody like her who allegedly fancies herself to be this. You know steward of American Dixon, morality to abstain and say as from ourselves. Ok! Well, that's an interesting theory, but I will but I will blow I will. I will push back on this as well, which is to say here's the field and twenty twenty there's Joe Biden. A guy ran for president twice getting three percent of the vote. Each time, senator from a tiny state known as aid as a logarithmic lunatic but becomes vice president, is a good guy, decent guy. You know care and he was about his vice president than theirs. Bernie Sanders. Seventy five year old, socialist.

From Vermont, very strange providence, there's Elizabeth WAR and there's Corey Booker, there's Kemal Harris, there's Martineau Mally, there's John Hidden Loop or the governor of Colorado. Okay, so kissed Jill Abram S children. Okay. So what do we have here? We have a field very similar to the republican field and twenty sixteen except less impressive way.

Es impressive than they republican field. Twenty. Sixteen, where a has been celebrity somewhat, has been second rank. American celebrity comes up, you know from nowhere and eats everybody's luncheon becomes the nominee as opposed to the as opposed to over Winfrey, who is the most successful female person in the history of show business, the most successful individual person, probably next to Steven Spielberg and George Lucas, the most successful enterprise entertainment entrepreneurs in the history of the planet, somebody came from nowhere has made three billion dollars triumphed in television started a magazine started a publishing house revived the sale of literary fiction and has and had her own tv network and is now a sort of

Grand E without portfolio the thing. I think that I was thinking last night having been one of the creators of this Oprah boom, let that makes this different from Trump and that I don't think there's a real answer to is Trump benefited from the fact that the republican base hates politicians have decided that it hated all politicians, including its own, that it didn't like the Congress. It didn't like John Baynard, didn't like much Mcconnell didn't like anybody, it doesn't like politicians, politicians are garbage and their comes Trump who says I hate politicians do I dont know frizzle operating, wouldn't, say she hates partisanship.

Like Obama. She helped get Obama lected. All that I dont know that the Democratic Party will be as thrilled by a message by by an anti politician that they are, of course, the Party of government. I don't think they feel as got disgusted by democratic policy. Since, as republican voters seem to feel about republican politicians, it strikes me that the Democrats, too late, or there are more prone to sort of anoint than to slug out among competitors. You know Obama, this make room for I voted for the person they choose Obama. Certainly Hilary even though, was those if there was a huge portion of of left descended from from from Hilary. Are people gonna make way for Oprah

one of the they need to buy the again. Who knows where words were beers away, but if, if if, if we have ten people contesting- and you know, Biden and Sanders are splitting twenty two percent of the vote and theirs report you know and why the banks in thirty percent, yet we ve seen as valuable delay and Albert presence in the race, will be valuable to certain candidate slave it. This is exactly what we have will people say you know you have to do it? No one. You have to set a tv star to catch a tv start. You have to set a celebrity catches lever. That's why? think that you're, the message doesn't matter at all because but they were for all their for all the opposition in their vitriol Republicans only wanted the Roan Obama and Democrats only want their own trump and that's what Oberlin through will being so there we go it may happen, may not happen. All sorts of things can happen. I'm just saying that I did not when I first

this in January twenty six. In that I was not joking. I mean I was joking joking and a sort of in the way that no, I says like what the hell has happened to our country, that this is even thinkable and yet because its thinkable, it's not a joke. The country may be the joke, not the idea, and sadly I have now called America joke and sorrow is called Stephen Miller Nazi and I you know not only knows what's: gonna come out and pike lamps. Just remember that we are a conservative. Publication, unlike some folk conservative publications, that promote Nazism them and that is all Brite car and have guys who wear three shirts hanging onto their jobs by their fingernails. That, for a Ringwald, no Rossman saw Maria John passwords. Keep the candle burning.