« Commentary Magazine Podcast

Conclusion: No Collusion

2019-03-25 | 🔗
Noah Rothman was out for this episode, but the rest of the gang talked about the Mueller probe's findings, whether or not the Democrats will keep probing, and what it all means for 2020.
This is an unofficial transcript meant for reference. Accuracy is not guaranteed.
Welcome to the commentary magazine. Podcast today is Monday March, twenty fifth, nineteen. I am John Paul towards the editor of Commentary magazine the seventy five year old, publication of intellectual analysis, political probity in cultural criticism. From a conservative perspective, we invite you to join us a common Magazine dot com, where we give you a few free reads and then asked you to subscribe: one thousand nine hundred and ninety five for a digital subscription, two thousand nine hundred and ninety five for an all access. Ask
including a beautiful monthly magazine in your mailbox eleven times a year. Harassment is not with us today, but back from his vacation in the wilds of do by a Greenwell senior editor high aim, a giant there are no wilds into by right. Actually, there are no wild, it's just one big city with indoor ski slopes and end up and then there's desert, which is not far away because the whole thing was built on desert. So once if you get away from the construction you're you're in desert, so it's like a LAS Vegas, somewhat black can't catch. Another black camels exist as a black eye. I did not know the black camels exists, them, I'm excited to hear it and Christine Rosen Senior
writer high Christine Hygiene Christine, is in Washington, as am I I'm here in Washington for the APEC policy Conference, where I'll be speaking in a couple of hours and if you're lucky, you won't hear this in time and won't bother to come, see me cause. I don't think it's gonna be a particularly interesting panel, a big cause. Among other things were not. Can we talking about the only news that we have to talk about today, which is the signs that the release of the Mulder report, but the but the idea that the release of the central finding of the Mauro Report, which is that there was no, lucian between there was no collusion that could be proved or that appeared to take place between the Trump Twenty sixteen campaign and Russia
notwithstanding Russia's efforts to influence and have an impact on the twenty sixteen election. So I will say this: Noah Rossman, not not with us today was by sitting by the last couple of months, was the only one of us who still had the we don't really know yet whether Mahler is gonna lower the boom on tromp, I think gum- and you know that was prudent of him and true, but I think a ban. I Ann Arbor departed colleague a sort of Marie. I have spent a lot of the last year and a half, let's say,
or maybe year, feeling extremely sceptical- that thee that Mahler was gonna, get Trump personally that that that was actually gonna happen. Ah and Christine, I think you are serve- were around there too. Now will you join us silently? I only say this because I think you know Noah's caution was understandable and tat. I think it's probably a here that I ve been doing this and he's not mad. Here it's either defend himself or oryx or explain larger position, but I just wanted to go through what it has been over the last year and a half that has led that led me to this
escape. This is Amanda, and maybe a bank received and talk of basically was that if it, if it was, if, if it happened, it would have been much clearer, it would have been clear a couple of months into the investigation letter, that the longer it went on and the more these indictments came down. That seem not to involve the campaign but largely questions of how people interacted with the Mahler probe and then Paul man afford, obviously the biggest fish to be caught in the Mahler probe all of his major crimes that he's gonna go to jail for about an hour. Now. Eleven twelve years involve things that had nothing to do
campaign, money laundering, rugs, Miss behaviour with Ukraine and that and that even the biggest part of the story, which was the the were there in the smoke potential smoke
gun, which was this one meeting in June. Twenty sixteen a trump tower between senior officials of the term campaign and this layer vessel net skier that we would have known if that meeting had featured actual offers of assistance in exchange a quid pro quo stuff. So that was always my scepticism about this and we obviously haven't seen the full report. We could talk about that in a minute, but I I just did the logic has always been that when people it I'll collude, they collude and when they dont collude. They dont collude, and I think it's clear that in theory, I guess the Trump campaign would have been happy to collude if there was something
collude over, but they couldn t, and that was the campaign in that trunk himself. Yeah. You know at so every story for over the past two years that every headline front page story about some recent development in the probe. Some sexy new thing that that that with that was covered somewhere buried deep down in the story. The twenty seventh paragraph, four, the thirtieth paragraph, whatever it was. There would always be this cap. That said, there is so far so far, no evidence that the trunk AMOS colluded with Russia and, in fact most of the developments, to my mind, was worth it was always a bat. There were always about not homing in on collusion about expanding
the search for potential wrongdoing among Trump and his associates beyond up apart from collusion, you know that the focus seem to sort of broadening drift. Well, which is true of all of all, you know, fishing expeditions in the sense that you're going after one thing, and then you come across other crimes on the way right and then there was always this question among the people who said that probably a witch hunt- and it was also terrible witches, so they're going along and somebody comes and testifies under of- may catch him in a lie sore. They switched to ignore that because the brief is
only to find out whether there's collusion right. That was how were you no conspiracy between Trump and Russia, so that always seem to be an unfair gibe against mauler. In my view and the proud, because you know that's what happens when you're doing a criminal investigation well in that speaks to what I think there was so much energetic wishful thinking, particularly on the part of Democrats, about about mothers investigation because clearly, as as you mentioned earlier, John Trumpets surrounded himself with people who are more than willing to it if they have a moral compass to check out the window, it an opportunity. So these were not people who who I think most Americans would want to see having the ear of of the most powerful man and the nation, but I do think there's it. I was trying to
to get my head around after reading of the stuff over the weekend, and you know some of us talked about it either. It's it's more like catharsis averted right. Some people crisis averted, you know trumped says he's one, but actually the there's there's a lack of catharsis for both sides right. The Democrats are now pivoting to obstruct the obstruction issue, demanding release the full report. They were mother to come testify. They clearly are frustrated, that's the obvious one, but I think for trump supporters. You note there. This shouldn't be the moment of catharsis that there that there are many of them are playing. It ought to be there still much trouble ahead, certainly in the south, this sort of New York or some of the campaign finance of which all of us have been talking about for four months now so it this is it's a weird and ITALY frustrating moment for both sides or should be so I mean I, I guess we gotta give trump his. You know celebratory tweets over the weekend, but they still got trouble ahead or look there
the latter released by attorney general BAR quote smaller. As saying that, they could not clear essentially could not cleared trump of obstruction charges Emmy that he was not exonerated, he was, he is cleared on the charge of the campaign and he am colluding with Russia or be no conspiring to change results of the twenty six who election in his favour with the use of of Russia, but that, but how the hell Trump and his administration, let's say, are really trump himself dealt with the probe and whether or not that constituted obstruction. That's I think why that's why you're seeing Democrats make this? You know pivot till we need to see the report bar needs to testify. Mullay needs to testify
whether that is politically wise. I think we should get too in a minute, but I I think before we go to the catharsis part. What has always puzzled me about, and I think pretty much was saying this from the beginning. So what puzzled me about? The police, co decision of Anti trump resistance people to put most of their eggs in the Mahler basket rather than and said you know, reporters and do what we're investigative possibilities they had toward the other stuff. That Trump does and has done. That is discomfitting right, I mean the service, we know what what could largely be
described as the emoluments issue, you know, is he profiting or is his business profiting from. You know where foreign to bees staying at the Trump Hotel in DC, that sounds petty, but it really is an petty. You know our work was the cushions Emily attempting to trade on its relation to tramp in getting business in Malaysia. You know playing moral law go for these days. You know this stuff that again in the ass, a thing of the situation will reverse. Then it were a democratic doing. This Republicans would be screaming the way. Democrats, a lot of Democrats scream and it's a much more under damned the bull line of inquiry, if you're
to score political victory against your opponent to go at personal corruption, particularly when somebody has a reputation of being somewhat sleazy then to go with a conspiracy theory involving the idea that this man is a cats paw of the of a russian dictator. But I agree with you once, but the going after him on the emoluments stuff doesn't do what going after him on the on the collusion question does, which is explained great trauma in their lives if it making but collusion, they have an answer for four why their world was unjustly, turned up so down what conclusions slam dark Grey exactly for Americans to right. I mean it's much harder for Americans to get
their minds around the the kind of details of the emoluments issue and and a lot of the campaign finance. Some people are far more likely to be non political class. People are gonna tune out of those discussions in a way that hey, you know, he's a mentoring candidate for Russia World, so how about that, but that just follow me for a second trump owns hotels, Ford dignitaries come to Washington and stay in India in your and stay at his hotels in order to curry favour with him and his company profits as a result. Now it's not a lot of profit, but it's you know it's enough. He has golf courses ended a club, you know, and this building in in and he goes there and a hunt. Billions of dollars are spent there now by the federal government supporting his stays there. That's you don't think. That's understandable, I think that's
easily understandable, then or more easily. Believable, then Putin, you know, has been running trump because there was a type of trap of prostitutes. Your remaining on Trump, I mean I mean, let's let it out. It's like one is a real thing right. It's like it's like a chance. He you now chancy cons at me like Trump stay. The guy did from stakes. Also, does you I'll pay me for my hotel or prostitutes were set up with Trump and twenty thirteen wildly with no, because maybe he would run for president later and they would have him. You know they would have him in this massive conspiracy blackmailing him,
a man would seem, it would be impossible to blackmail right because he hasn't shit. So what are you blackmailing him? For you know, I don't know. So I'm not sure I agree with you. I think you know that he's a crock line is better than that he's you know he's a robot do yeah, maybe I'm wrong, maybe but you pal seat, but I'm not sure that people, wouldn't I mean I I look. I don't know with any other ways is using his businesses as well as presentation, by enriching himself at all and in a private capacity, so we're on the same page there, but in terms of the story he can tell that he ran on his success as a businessman as a deal maker there.
There is certainly a way. I assume that you could see him saying they're coming after me, because I'm such a success, because I have these hotels- are not doing anything wrong. They just hate me because I'm such a success, I mean I disagree that that's euro appropriate, but I'm just trying to think about ways. He can. He can argue or talk his way out, an argument about amendments, for example right. Ok, so basically you know where we started this by my going to you know they could have it out with a democratic. He could have gotten him better in another way, and maybe that is the wrong. Maybe that's the wrong way to go about. This is obvious.
The red letter story here is that you know this probe took two years almost two years and you know did indeed thirty. Four people and you know, got fourteen convictions and a lot of those people are Russians who were fighting or with our with our electoral system, and they were, you know, convicted in absentia, but the thing that it was intended to to determine, which is whether or not russian interfere whether or not there was knowing Colino Noah in collaboration with Russia to have an effect on the results of the twenty sixteen election. That's pretty much Mueller says that didn't happen, and the question now is what happens to people who refuse to accept people who spent two years saying we have to wait for our mother
how's. Everything Mahler sees all mothers of bowlers, enable warrior bureau. Mahler is the greatest things and sliced bread are they. Are they gonna keep on with this narrative? When you know, nineteen lawyers and forty, the FBI, agents and five hundred hours of interviews and all these indictments in every possible and inappropriate part, a lot of hardball being played with with people who is you know who faced the total ruination of their lives? And they say it didn't happen, they don't say: there's not enough evidence that it didn't happen. They say that that happen well evidence if they don't drop. It wants this famous social psychology study by some some unable Leah Fasting, her
so psychologist about what happens when prophecy fails and he studied a UFO Ufo called that thought you have always gonna common, take to lift them off the planet just in time, save them from the at the end of the war right and answer will obviously that there you have the aliens, never came. What did the what'd the the members of the court? They also some left, but most of them double down on their faith and explained this away explained the the aliens not coming explained it away by saying, because they were so faithful. The aliens gave him but gave the world a pass, didn't blow up the world and the world who stayed also then resorted
two proselytizing and tried and end doubling their efforts to get more members, because the idea is that when you have this car I'd have dissidents when dissonance when you believe something's gonna happen, and then reality doesn't comport with it. In order to over the evidence of your senses, you have to buckle down and invest that much more emotionally in Europe. Version of events, so is that what's going to happen? Perhaps it is, it's already read me, look look at how the framing of even the stories and like today's New York Times they're coming there pivoting to the obstruction issue, their pay to focusing on bar who was described in they are times. Today they looked at the attorney general who, by the way, is a political pointy. Only an office, a few months forces global, pointy attorney general's out the political point, and I mean it's, but that the couch in the kind of the massaging of the narrative to start focusing on testifying embark, as if I get in another going after bar its
investing in Adam White, has a wonderful piece on our website. Today. That notes several of the major ironies of this pivot, not least of which is that you know it, is now the critics of the President's who were the president's, who are demanding that the Justice Department now kind of compromise, their own institutional norms and rules, and because they didn't like what the reports. Whereas solution explain that we should hear the ideas. What they want is the full release of a report that presumable it contains going jury testimony which is a conflict which has not for public release and various things that might have gone through some kind of an Pino intelligence, foreign intelligence process, and that you know it is not acceptable that these things be released and fall. And- and it would,
if you say, violate all these Justice Department norms that we are told must be followed in every possible way in order to protect the integrity of the probe. So now that the probe is over the integrity of the probe in terms of securing of the rights of the in right, I mean that's what a lot of grand jury secrecy it off so beheaded, because you're doing investigation if nothing comes of it, no one supposed to know that you are investigating them because their they didn't do anything wrong so that, in an effort to go in this fishing, it in addition, they will, as Adam says, Adamite, says on arm our blog. They will do you, no there there now willing to search through RO this. You know this kind of finger, wagging caution that they can.
Yelling at spread through the earth felt. How dare anybody question that the FBI does things this way or that just Sparkman does things that way so terrible its it's pretty startling. However, I will say this, which is that the the pivot to obstruction isn't in and of itself, I'm thinking more about them, the Russia angle. So we don't know what right does the thing that their clinging to write is that we don't know what the report says about obstruction, which I think, if I, if I understand correctly, really does involve how trumped dealt with the probe itself right like with criminal or not. He sought
it's right. He saw to obstruct homies investigation of Slim and then weather in the course of the investigation, some of the stuff that he did. You know floating, pardons on twitter and and serve saying nice things about. You know Manafort and Flynn and and and various other people in order to is, he rightly keep them on. You know he's good cited for them not to testify massively about him or something whether that constitute an obstruction. So they want to see what that is. But you know if, if, if, as you know, the joy, Sir Joyce Van somebody them on MSNBC with said last night, something like You know obstruction can be, there was no obstruction or could be there.
Some evidence of obstruction, but in our opinion, meaning bar and rod, Rosen Stein, it didn't rise, the doesn't rise to the level of indictment or you know, or or or you know, obstruction and that it out again in a kind of clinging to a last hope that you know he'll be gotten by this. But I mean that's true. You know I mean if they say there there were. You know these data points that suggested obstruction, but no smoking gun right. Well them in different people can have different opinions of that. I suppose, depending on what the report actually says,. So in that sense it's not exactly the same, I'm more interested in whether or not at the twenty twenty democratic convention. People are gonna, be saying: Trump was a cats paw Russia at my heart they can't say they really can't say that any more
I liked, unless any, unless some new evidence emerges theirs, they can't say that, without without being the same sort of extremists do no conspiratorial types that they are constantly claiming that term supporters are yeah. I know so I'm not just a Democrat, but now I'm wondering so you know what happens when the media are generally now to have talks about our policy mean theirs. Is there's been this point that people like us have been making past two years, which is that, while Trump personally does praise Vladimir Putin, repeatedly and disgustingly to us, the fact remains that the his administrations policies towards Putin's Russia have been pretty shawl and there an unwilling has to acknowledge that media in in that's been direct
related to this idea that that he and the Trump Putin have this some sort of quid pro quo going on that was born of pollutants, helping tromp, Emily twenty six June elections. There way I always, but that there would be something mildly exculpatory in fact, it morally exculpatory if it turned out that Putin Trump were in Cahoots together right, because that would explain, more understandable explanation of this, you know take of saying my stuff about. You know one of the world's worst people like why. Why do you too?
I hope that he doesn't have it everything if they were like business friends that would you know that at least need say: ok, well, you know right well, you know he's like keeping is powder dry with his with his buddy suddenly and I'll be up in a more more inexplicable you know there's a side point here that someone made on Twitter on which it which is important, although it's not people think about it among which is that now, after after this Putin, can sort of do what he wants during the twenty twenty election, because the last thing, because we're gonna want our going to want to hear about his royal Russia Raw, yes, that that scary, Russia, there there
there there there hijacking the election again right quota unclothed it it sort of gives him it gives Putin a scary opening a double jeopardy re. That's that's that! That's where I you know. I think it's worth exploring the question of whether whether the. The approach now continued investigations and stuff like that, whether Democrats are opening up a pandora's box and making a big mistake, but before we do that, let me talk to you about what I just did before the podcast, which has brush my teeth with equip toothbrush. That's what I did right before the part I seriously just before I sat down
here in my hotel room. I brush my teeth with equip toothbrush cause. You know I'd, do it every day, my one of us important things to do for our health, but most of us don't do it properly and quip is the better elixir toothbrush created by dentists and designers to help you do it. The right, way with sensitive sonic vibrations are gentle and your gums most people brush to heart and some electric toothbrushes or to abrasive built into built into maritime repulses everything? seconds, to remind you and switch sides helping out a full and even clean and up to ninety percent of us, don't press for a full two minutes it on clean evenly. But I do with a multi use, cover amounts to your Marin amounts to slight over Europe Those were on the go, brushing just stick that aids pull it off. My merit home, put it my toilet kit, take it out, put it on the matter in the in the hotel room. It's right. There declares you're, Sinker Cabinet mix travelling with elected, refresh, easier. Obviously, brush heads automatically delivered on a dentist recommended schedule. Every three months are just five. Bucks got my new one on Friday,
Do you know the three or four of us use, bristles that are old, worn out, ineffective quip, as are the first Lecter toothbrushes accepted by the American Out Association, has thousand verified five servies. That's why I love quip and by their back they were twenty thousand they'll professionals. Quit starts it just twenty five bucks and if you gotta get quick dotcom, Slash commentary right now you get your first refill pack for free with equip electorate toothbrush. Let your first refill pack free at G, T kill you IP dotcom, slash commentary. So here's the thing. So it had two years of a probe, its injured trump, where I think are unquestionably while it is also solidified his support to some extent Republicans thinking that others that he's being unfairly targeted. I think it's fair to say that he remains you know in the out right now in arrange range and which will be difficult for him to if it, if it doesnt improve to secure real action, because there is
this thing hang over him that people supported mostly even though most a lotta republicans are most relegates thought by and that the more problems unfair or you know that Mahler was a was biased or something like that. But the question now is Democrats. Have all of this investigative power in the US and they have the ability to impeach Trump in the house, because they have a significant the significant enough majority that they could do so. The failure of the Mahler Probert, let's say, failure the finding of the Mahler probe that trumped did not Klute. Does this
What is this due to Jerry, meddler and Adam Schiff, and you know all the investigative committees that might want to go after him for other stuff at what point do people who were not simply totally partisan Democrats and are not in a totally parson Republican, say you know what this is really unfair. I mean you now I may not like tromp wherever this is crazy they're, just they just won't let up- and this is not right well after after maybe praying quietly in front of their Robert Mahler vote of candles, which they no longer need to own. They really ought to think about what the public is. At once for the next two years. If you make this, if you, if you double down on the investigations, if you continue But with this you know what they call a witch hunt report. I think it was a pole. Just last month that said you don't half of the respondents in a poll said they thought that the Mueller probe is a witch hunt, mean people
our kind of sick of it. If you started new suppose a witch hunt that that hands try very easy reelection issue to just hammer home along with his wall. If, instead, you say, let's the people will have to decide. You have to here's make make those two years about what the Democrats stand for, that that is distinct from what Trump stands for you might have a chance. I just think that they are that partisan demands on even the democratic leadership in the house. It you know as tough as Nancy Policy is she you know, there's a lot of pressure on them now, if you read the comments on their twitter accounts that in the last year of twelve hours, she'll see, there's a lot of pressure on them to impeach and that's not gonna that might not. That might continue from the activists class among the left, but they need to talk to democratic voters more brought cause. I'm not sure that outside of that activists pursuing these investigations is a good idea. Ok, so I think
general feeling now is that the the number of persuadable voters who you now is very small right at, but it's not so small, the election and twelve sixteen didn't seem to turn to some extent on people who, or what to vote for Obama, twenty twelve and willing to vote for Trump and twenty sixteen. So there are people who are not necessarily a fixed ideological or parties views, and they don't need that right. The famous thing is eighty thousand votes in three states, so those eighty thousand voters who do hoo hoo haven't become. You know Trump gains today, look at Adam chef.
In you know, February. Twenty twenty and say: ah, this is just nonsense like this is just this is just harassment cause. That's the issue like ok, fine, granted partisan, Democrats hate trump the way you know they ve hated, hey they hated again, they hated Bush, they hated they and the employees and the Parson Publicans it so funny to think about how much they hated Clinton. We need only look at Clinton's record and you think, my god, you know, if only we could have a democrat like that out, but I mean they hated like poison so everybody needs a renowned the position where everybody hates everybody else, but there's a small. People who don't necessarily hate everybody else or don't think in those terms and aren't those the ones or give decide the election.
I guess it's very I mean look, I'm I remit iced. I continue to be more on trumps. Reelections hopes, then not because, as I think that there are more people there, I have yet to see evidence of the people who who supported him even reluctantly or given a wishy washy said I d see remorse on their site. I see more movement on the beside, despite all the efforts to not quote normalized Trump on the left. The fact is when you are president for years, you are normalized and I think every effort that too too Sort of treat him as something abnormal and that that that means all that means pursuing
all sorts of probes in investigations and should the explanations that are outside of this outside of the sort of tradition, traditional politics, explanation for four, how he got there, I think those are going to back fire to the extent that he has to be dealt with as a normal outgrowth of our politics. At this point in its that failure on the part of the democrats- and I think it is turn off a lot of Americans yeah. Ok, however, however, I think one thing that we do not from all the data and everything we see is that the stuff that is not normal hid stuff. That is not normal right, which is like the tweeting, and you know the nasty Nelson in all that people we're hooligans don't like that, and so there is a part of him that will remain a kind of revolutionary cultural figure in that he
produces here, introduce what we expect of the behaviour not only of presidents but of sort of american public figures in general, and I still think that is a useful card for his opponents to pay against him. Like is exhausting, haven't you had enough? This is all about from the probes of everything. This is just. Is this what you want and president, like? I can't take it anymore. No, that's, I think that's really important point and I think a smart democratic nominee for president will push that message over and over again, because they're not going to be able to meet the economies now, not not not booming, but it's not tanking. We aren't in the midst of the any major foreign policy crisis at this moment, I that the kinds of things that that traditionally these elections focus on, they don't have it's gonna, be about his
personality and, and that would be the smart tat to take. I doubt they're gonna. Do it, though I just I just don't I mean Biden, could that I think I could do that very well for the Democrats, if you wanted to write well, I mean we get now back to this question that we ve been asking mail for weeks are met, and that is reinforced by a report. I got from from someone Who is actor? Who is at the rally yesterday christened Jailbirds rally in New York City, which I think I read to you Christine yet yesterday pretty funny, but I'd just what it's a series of tweets.
My nephews, father in law photographer, went to photograph the went to photograph the the event, and here is what here's his report- ok, tweet number one in the pledge of allegiance. They left out under God to remember to first speaker and attractive latina, Dreamer, second, talker, illegal woman, immigrant third speaker and anti sexual harassment activist, queer woman, Fort speaker of a black gun control activist, also female next to speakers, algae BT, Q and a black trans woman, followed by another anti sexual harassment, latina activist, who was also queer, followed by Jellyband. Finally, gingerbread one single pair healthcare for all education and child care, to which I think is something we're gonna start hearing as they keep the outbidding each other, which is we don't only need single pair healthcare. We need single pay
education, higher education and single pair childcare right to form Union's fifteen dollar minimum wage legalised marijuana and endorses the new green deal. Okay, so this is Christen Jill brand up and go giving way to run for president apparently a single male speaker, which is Europe into interesting, and this sort of come like it parade of veto, single issue, identity, politics, people and then you look at this and you say, as I cuz I keep saying so did that is she? What are they? Are these democratic candidates? Reading the democratic electorate right? Are they reading it right? Is this the democratic electorate? Is it this left wing? Has it gone this left wing or have they been
knowed? Are they is the noise that is being made by you know steady where at a pack s rays, there aren't just three new democratic congressmen? There are sixty three new democratic congressmen but, as I said Mc Com last week, we don't know the names of Eddie was up any of those. Sixty aside from ok, ok, Cortez that to leave an Omar right, we don't know who Eddie the with. So that's that's the situation we find ourselves in. If they are reading their own electorate right than they are dancing into, you know really choppy waters or they're, making a big mistake like they. They are now imagining. It is as though
Republicans now bully- and maybe it's true, but I mean that Republicans thought that the bright barred comments section was the entirety of the republican Party. This is in reverse, so now the daily coasts Comp comments section from two thousand and four as the entirety of the Democratic Party, and this is what the temptation of spending the next year still talking about, what the Mahler probe seems to have concluded in the conversation witches he didn't collude with. Russia might might lead them to. I mean so, what's more of a deviation from our normal politics, trumps, tweets and terms personality or the parade of activists that you just described, leading up to Jill Brands speech an ad in the eyes of most Americans we ve, been, we ve, been true
to get used to the former. I think the there is still arresting and shocking will the call out culture, exacerbated social media is, is still largely confined emanate from the public. Yours are behaving this way in, and Japan have all those people come speak because she doesn't that that's a preventative measure right so that she's not called as being a white lady. You know who is woman splaining to people because she's, not queer or latino, or any of the other things she had out there. That's that's how you do that these days, if you're a Democrat, the difference is that I think we haven't got to the point where this now this is our version of eating poor crimes as though exaggerated grass she began work, while the my idea exactly like look, I wanted you, even though I was this moderate, you know look first, she threw the Clinton's under the boss than she drew a Franco, the bus she's. Like look, I it's really me: it's the new improved. You know it
sectional elaborate, and but the problem is that I dont think voters care that much about it, but there are also not being called out for it until we reach a point which we will in the near future, where ordinary citizens are regularly becoming victims of this. This kind of intersection, Call our culture, we see it here and there you know your young adult fiction writer, you feel you're in the crosshairs, but until it becomes a more Geller, consistent thing anywhere outside of politics or on campus people. Dont, really understand why she's doing that, I don't think ordinary voters I mean. Is she going to take that show on the road in Iowa? Is that going to work there? It's it doesn't seem like it will. Ok, so I'm looking right here at the at the at the Emerson Pull of Iowa and it shows Biden at twenty five and seven, the twenty four, which seems to be the story of democratic pulling altogether, which is that you have. You have sanders
eating like dominating with space in the left and all of these people seeming to want a crowd in two where he is and by elsewhere, here radically, not part of any of this right near radically. Some other thing. Ok! So what does this tell you like? What space d want to crowd into is legally are? Is no one gonna go for the non identity politics, you know we need to fix health care and you know and have good environmental policies that don't destroy cat and capitalism is ok and in a manner it's ok and all that there's a piece
by bill. Sure unreal killed clear politics. He says he has seen a pole from the Watson Centre, public policy that has not been fully released yet, but the numbers show the contrary to claims that the political centre of Amerika, shrinking slightly more than half of american vote herself identifies moderate. Now this is not monolithic. The group is almost either They divided between those only liberal in those lean conservative. Moreover, there's no clearly defined set of consensus issue positions for these folks, but if this is true, the pole- and he says the political homer most moderate, currently feel more comfortable. Is the democratic party this mad rush to dominate to get out get yourself right with the left if you're right Christine? This is about avoiding the trap of being
by call out culture. Then fine, then that's like this is like an oculist is an early inoculation and maybe they can move to the centre later. But where is the sit like there's one centrist, I- but this is what you are saying about earlier- about those voters that were willing to vote for Obama's second term but then switch to tromp right, I mean there are plenty of people on the left and the right these moderates you're talking about who could leave tromp for someone who was in their view running on a more moderate platform, even if the rhetoric alone is more moderate, I mean the policies could probably even be a little more left of centre than right of centre for some of these. Urban republican women, for example, but if the, if its, if it's a grown up, who behaved
like an adult and isn't you no kind of on having raged rage tweets on a regular basis? That alone looks appealing to a certain kind of voter. Why so we're looking at a wheel, injury that has been done by the conclusion of the smaller probe, the democratic narrative for two thousand and twenty right, which is that Trump has a unique threat to our democracy because of his because of taking help from Yale from Russia? So they don't have that anymore, so they can do it unique threat to our democracy. For other reasons, I suppose meaning Aldo policy wise. It's the only case you can really make there is like about children in cages, or you know the Muslim Ban, a behaviour towards Charlottesville, but at Charles, not policy right, that's more! Like vision, nerve, sense of citizenship, or something like that,
so real injuries been done them by the fact that you know he they dont have this argument successfully replay against them, but they are also Democrats right after their their liberals that need to run against them, so they opened the so they need to, I think, be able to say you know what he is is not what we want in a press. What you know he proved himself not to be the kind of person we want as a president and his policies have enriched the rich in favour, the poor, any screwed up health, air and all that that's a pretty normal message. You know I mean that say: that's and the warm all had enough have you had enough message, but there they they seem to be had in a direction that is gonna, make it impossible for them not to say if you vote for this guy, you were
drawing America forever. Will you kept the promptly can't you can't make the credible case that he is distorting America from a position of where were you are advocating for the complete distortion of our understanding of America? I mean the epidemic. You're gonna, be this radical in this far off the reservation. The day really lose. The ability to say what's happening with tromp is crazy. Because they are sponsoring and monitoring and promoting their own brand of that is just exacerbating that was just getting
more intense and and and harder to ignore right. So so this is so basically, this is a wake up. Call these last six weeks, including with the Mueller probe, function as a potential wake up call for Democrats and before we get to what they what they might do and then also what Republicans are going to do here on just talk to about common comfort. The common comfort waited blanket, there's no need to suffer through another sleepless night. Try common comfort by sharper image luxurious, waited blanket that helps you relax, so you can fall asleep and stay asleep. Naturally, common comfort, design, with high density comfort fail to provide exactly the right amount away. Tell relax your body mimics the soothing feeling of being hugged.
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Into twenty twenty in a pretty good possession write them trump still in the low fortys, and generic Democrats are still beating. The economy may be going into the you know when to serve like a somewhat rough patch and all that, so the wake up call is you can win this thing, but maybe not the way you were hoping to win it. Can they adjust? So I think you're saying they can't adjust I say political parties don't commit suicide, so you know if the pat enough the path ahead is clear. Then it's not that they're, not gonna get elected. You know screaming about resistance, they're, not a scream about resistance. The problem is, I think, there's still a large portion of. Certainly the activists left believes they did take back the house screaming resistance,
look at those mid term elections and they say look. This is how it's done. We get angry people to the poles by screaming about you know how trumpets is providing democracy. I mean that message. I think for that, for the loudest voices in the room that still up an appealing message and they think it worked and in some ways it might have. I I agree with you that I dont think that that's the way should move going forward, and this is where the real split between the kind of Joe Biden, Nancy Pelosi types in Denmark at a party and the new young angry loud activists are gonna. It's really gonna be a struggle. I think ok, so there's the wake up call for the Republican Party, and I would put it like this if probes things like that, are you know what we should do is move beyond them. The key the term mauler narrative you know, which is that
we need to probe the FBI. I am Hilary and reopen probes into Hilary, whether she colluded in whether there was great out whether the steel dossier form of collusion with other people and rush all that stuff, whether they need to drop this too, because will interfere with the merit of that. We need to move beyond these in our tit for tat conversations, yet they they have you need to shut down Don Junior and Mark meadows and all these guys and Rudy Giuliani, I mean, if you ve, spent the last two years claiming it unfair, which you cannot in turn around and conduct a witch hunt up here you can, even if you want to even if you think, there's something better that politically that's just foolishness. We I mean, I think, there's this fatigue
you go around this whole issue. It's like scandal, fatigue or probe fatigue or something you know that I forget it could definitely by both sides. Sorry, so if it bites post, eyes. Then I mean then. Basically, what we have is the political class bowing to get to them I was voices in the room rather than obvious will realities. The weirdness here is the Trump is given a chance to do the Clinton thing. The Clinton said, maybe eight, which is I just want to help the american people and people want to distract me they're, just through their own naked political reasons and leave me alone, because I just want to do my job right, but that having that, ironically, because it was Clinton making the argument that differ.
It was very undisciplined as private. That takes a lot of political discipline. To do that ray I mean you, don't write trumped up as that yeah. That's right, Clayton had unbelievable political discipline and really terrible Percival discipline. I don't know it's interesting moment because I've been thinking Christine. We began by your saying the right ass to be careful, not despite the football here, because the long range benefit to tramp and the Republicans and prospects for re election. All of that, the long range benefit is long range, that is to say, if you want us to persist, if you want the Democrats really over reached it out their resistance overreached do you live
simmer like if you bring it to a boil now, and you now have three months. If I or you know as they do this as they you know, they have debate over whether amount to subpoena you know mauler to testify. That's when this question is whether from can go. This is just really sad. The sad like how we move on, I didn't interfere with the probe. Everybody said I was getting into I didn't, I didn't interfere, I let it go. People said I could have fired him. I didn't fire him now. We now were now it's over and you know they just can't let it go. They live in their living in the past there delusional at its terrible at it sad how that seems to me to be, I think, not just something that Republicans or again this question of whether or not something can resonate can break through this. You know
buddy's in their corner and affect other people and affect the people who either they're going to change their vote. So they're not going to change their votes and- and you know, that's the that's. The challenge for Trump and his people going forward is to take the you know, take the chip off their shoulder and act bigger and sadder and less you know defiant and like there, you know by their being mistreated cause. That's what a winner would do in a certain sense like this. I think, anyway, an apology to issue an apology to know Rossman for my characterisation of his views on the next podcast. He will. We should give him
full chance, the air out whatever it is, he once they are. I will not be present for the next by gases going on vacation, so he will have a lot of time to attack me. Injustice, which was unintentional but for every wild and Christine rose, and I've John passwords keep the camel burning.
Transcript generated on 2019-12-09.