The COMMENTARY podcast discusses how online arguments create incentives to make disproportionately high investments in the outcome of those engagements. Whether the stakes are low or high, the level of tension remains static. A dissection of recent controversies and how they take on a more intense dimension when they are rendered abstractions in the arena of the internet.
This is an unofficial transcript meant for reference. Accuracy is not guaranteed.
Welcome to the Commentary Magazine Daily podcast today is Wednesday. May twenty seventh, twenty twenty, I'm John Pub Words the ETA, commentary magazine, the seventy eight year old, monthly of intellectual analysis, political probity and cultural criticism from a conservative respect. We invite you to join us. A commentary magazine dot com would give you you free raids. We ask it to subscribe with me always senior editor, a green Waldheim hygiene, Senora Christine Rosen, hello, Christine I can
associate editor nor Rossman high Noah, and so we have a couple of desperate phenomena that I think dovetail together. We can maybe considered try to take a thirty thousand foot, look at. We have them this, incident on camera, on up on an Iphone of the of police in Minneapolis. Why of them, putting his knee honest subdued, suspect on his throat and basically killing him Four cops having almost immediately fired once the video was released, the mayor of Minneapolis, Essentially calling this a murder we're gonna see We know where all all that goes that happen, of course, at the same they're, just right after the
Viral video of Amy Cooper in the ramble in central park, with her dog offer, leash being confronted by Christian Cooper and unrelated Africa Eric and Male asked her dog on the lesion. She in turn calling the cops on him while he videotaped her there YO taping of her being, I think the the inciting incident that got her. So rattled. She claimed that she was threatened and frightened, because this man had approached her in this relatively remote areas. Central park, but her main concern seem to me that she was on a camera and that he was in putting the camera down. She calls cops as an african american man is threatening me and now her life is basically over. As far as we can tell, she's been fired from Franklin Templeton, where she worked City Human Rights Commission is investigating her. She is now you know one of the most infamous people America
that's also with captured on on tape. Thing of these are obviously connected, because race is very much involved in both incidents, but I think also there's something about the. There is eight potentially larger question about. The revolution in a man african and maybe world life that has been cut aided by the omnipresence of not official security cameras like the Cctv in London in places like that, or you know whatever surveillance cameras at banks- and things like that, you know one of the district attorney's and people like that use the way in Britain, cops shows that you cctv cameras to help develop the plot lines. But then everybody in the world has a phone that can take video and we keep get having these incidents in which we see,
something incomplete often shot on on video that creates a national sensation, then over time the story gets more complicated and more flavoured but of course, the initial, the initial impact isn't quite isn't ever quite. I raised by the development of more more news and. And so. I wonder whether the more than anything else, the revolution in consciousness that has been created by the Iphone or by having this personal computer communications vice him in everyone's pocket that we basically now all have to assume that everyone, we do everything. We say everything that we are about is being filmed by someone and that any incident in which we are involved any any moment. Of conflict with another human being met
understood or misunderstood could be, could like be a life changing event, with consequences that we can't even begin to understand. Christine this as one of your major issues of concern right is the is the the danger of the internet age to Social. Good and social order. What are you? What do you make of all this? I think it needs a huge it's a huge subject. I do think that one of the things that concerns me given the events this past week. On the one hand, I think it's really good that we can now film things as they are happening, In the case of law enforcement, where you know someone has you can't, can show a video and say look they. This cop has his knee on this guy's windpipe and people are telling him to get off him and he's out saying I can't breathe and they don't move. So, like that's a pretty clear cut thing.
Right? But what we know from other situations where there been body can footage from police officers or or bystanders it's very easy to selectively edit university that you then pour some line because viral that so I think we need to be cautious not only about the rush to judgment, but about the integrity of what we are seeing in the first place. We live in an era of constant surveillance in the eight did. This would have simply dick. I d is it will? If everybody has a camera, then everybody safer, because we can all film what's happening to us in film each other in rolls were of basically, you know becoming a kind of reluctance, work.
We're Stasi, basically right we're all spying on each other, all the time, and so there you know this is it. This is generally a good. I don't think it is a good. I think people's behaviour changes. I think people perform for cameras in a way that they didn't used to or live their actual public lives in a way that assumes cameras are watching them in that's on always good. So I think the question should be. What is the integrity of the footage were seeing and its contacts so in this central park case that happened this past week, we know from a facebook posts that that Christian Cooper made himself, which we can assume was fairly self serving because he's describing its own actions He basically admits that he was the Karen and situation right. He approached this woman intending to scold her telling her and what I m sorry as a what, if I was a woman alone in the dog park, I would
This as a threat, he made his ruddy seven. If you dont forget, do you want to do so, a mind you're, not gonna. Like it, I mean that's threatening language. She completely overreacted and she did so with an overly of horribly races assumptions about what they call the cops would behave when they arrived and saw a white woman and african american man. I mean I actually on that. We We were all texting, bought it for four days, but I felt like Henry Kissinger when he was asked about the IRAN Iraq wars like I just wish they could both lose them, and I think they're kind of both behaved horribly and in different ways, but I dont think his foot it. His footage is a perfect example of what bothers me about this constant self surveillance and and and the watching we do of each other, because it was extremely. It was one tiny slice of an interaction for which we have no other contexts and every it was posted online by his sister and immediately everyone who was bad right, she's bad he's, gotta, be it it. There is no way to actually have any new ones or good judgment about what we're seeing and deciding about how to shame to publication
or non shame is a powerful. It's a necessary part of a functioning culture, and I think it's technology has given us far more power than judgment in practising it recently, so Our christian Coopers Facebook Post provided the beginning of the footage that otherwise we would never have right, so that with that's, what's interesting as those this kind of blending his MR put this up as a kind of her you, look here's a Karen. You know Karen being classically, I think, classic description of a Karen is a white woman who gives a who pond to a cashier that is, already out of date,
where'd you get up out at twenty percent off and the cashier says I can't honour this is out of date, and then she says: how dare you, we talk to your manage, tries and added intimidated Oh, it's Ivan clear that that coopers that Christian, her sister melody wanted, it was more like. Oh look at this. You know like the notion that this, spiral into a national the event. The tone of her tweet does not did not justify what happened to the tweet. That's the other thing about it. Stuff where things will go out into the ether is You just have no idea what how how it's going to explode on you, and it appears that Chris Jim Cooper himself got
not intend for this to become what it became and he did, I should say he did make an a decent statement like a day or so later saying. While I really don't, you know what the calm down we don't need to ruin. That's what I would like to welcome you to oblivion. Coarser languages are ruined, that's that statement from young should have come about five hours after that tweet went out. Nissan happening, she'd already been fired by the time. He said that I think there's this again, he looks great and in her, life is still ruin so I may we don't know anything about her. We don't know whether you know she was fired by Franklin Templeton, because the
of personality that she evinced on the tape was something which you have instead work off. Oh basically was like ok, that's the last straw, ugo so can I just got an abundant in her own thing that would have helped both of them actually, and I think every single person who owns a smartphone and uses it to videotape other should have this lesson kind of like you learn basic stuff in school. We should all learn verbal de escalation techniques. If you ve ever taken any sort of self defence and actually police are taught these regularly. They don't all practices, but verbal de escalation of the tense situation is a hugely important skill to have and if either Christian Cooper or Minsk Hooper had had at attempted to use one of those none of this would have happened. I really do think he was aggressive verbally. She was aggressive verbally response and then it just spiral to verbal d.
Escalation techniques or something I think we should teach in every elementary in middle school and High Scotland's country will say. I think that's actually very interesting. Example of the cap of changes that we are going to have to discuss, nationally in relation to these social revolution. That is being wrought by these devices that we they come in a revolutionise our lives. We don't know what on earth to do about it. Then we have to deal with the consequences of it and what de escalation votes there? That's verbal right, I mean a social media. Rewards escalation. Personal confrontations have about them for the most part, and in here current de escalate Tory a fact, which is that not
The body is confrontational, like a lot of people, shy away from confrontation. Somebody advances somebody retreats the retreat for is the form of de escalation that, unless the at the press and who was aggressive is hyper. As of warlike, you know his mind or something like that responds to the retreat with an appropriate. End of the advance right. That's that's how the dance of social, that's why people don't get into fistfight, five minutes on the subway or something like that, but there the m. The moralistic aspect of of this exchange between them when that's involved escalation is also the name of the game right. If youth, if you think you're out yours you're the one standing on firm moral ground, it isn't pump upon you to to keep going to keep fighting not to back down would be it would be immoral would be you know, cowardice so, and an
there is very little de escalate. And generally today in our public life right. It's not it's just the media, others, there is The thing is Herbert is amplified Ashley any argument about right or wrong or cat someone in the act of these dessert. These are things that are so antithetical to de escalation at the moment that goods I'm surprised, you not see much more of this. What do you know? I'm interested this in terms of say, social media, because I Had the experience over the here is on twitter of having a kind of emotion come over me. When I was in some kind of a confrontational exchange, with somebody there. I don't really recognize in my social behaviour, but that view much existed in my twitter B
Saviour and is one of the reasons that I ended. My role on Twitter, which is that I would say something in that someone say something back and then, because of it nature of twitters on seriousness or whatever. I would make a joke, and then someone wouldn't get the jokes I bite by the seventh and eighth moment, the desire to win the exchange to somehow silence the other person or leave them in a kind of or of the public somehow best thing. Somebody else serve wet right into my. I don't even know what to call it like its or bypassed my moral frame or my super ego- and it was just my id at work- I know, because I have five young young people that I have mentioned. Will better relatives of sunlight like that who have been in the same circumstance?
I can see it in them and I have to. I have like emailed them and said, delete those tweets like don't get out it s, because you don't know what this is going on. You know, unemployed or you will never get hired again. If you go on like that seal that kind of thing, and then the EU I will come back with somebody will say: I'm going to let them you know, talk that way to me. I'm gonna call them out, and it's like that's not just to like what are you gonna win money? There's? No job there's no victory it'll be had here the periods it is just so you as somebody who who so times gets into an on twitter, but very Annette, I would say not emotionally often just polemics early or factually. I dont think you get that rage or Don't get that thing happening where you can't stop,
It's almost like. You cannot stop until the other person is silenced. I guess I used to, though I mean just increasingly became less rewarding of inactivity but there is reward associated with it. You describe it as performance, and that is what it is. It's the reward of audience adulation men as a farmer I like that, I get it, but that the pay office, he's only in your mind. It doesnt really actually exists once you rationalize your way into figuring out that there is no pay off than all the sender just becomes a really wasted activity, the internet. Aspects of it make it in time. Is that temptation to over invest in really piddling low stakes? the conditions and the stakes are inherently lower. Wanting because you're never gonna get punished in the face right I mean that is the condition that prevails in and interpersonal confrontation, there's always the threat that they can go to the next level and
Others, this personalities that respond to that sort of thing, our president, is probably the essential aspect of one somebody who is hyper aggressive when the stakes are really low and who as by all accounts and by all reports, very little interest, engaging in actual confrontation in person of his his cat phrases in Europe. I, who hates to fire people who hates to be in that kind of really high stakes. National engagement with it with people, so The internet aspect of this exacerbates those conditions and creates more incentive to over invest in low stakes in my room, see minutes The stakes could not be lower in an internet argument. There's nothing to win, there's almost nothing ever to lose when you're when you have these publicly shaming moment, certainly been some great real, actual social science. On these public shame engagements and some of them
most compelling arguments boil down to really essential evolutionary traits thee. It had the intense the effort rather to work, for example, what we now call on on hyper, woke circle, slut, shaming efforts to car to police activity a tribal experience because promise you ready within the tribe, created socialist divisions and this union that was otherwise harmful to the social aggregate and so forth? We kind of have that baked into our dna. This kind of really first principles and essential aspects of human nature. I think really are
fascinating and drive a lot of this and there's a really interesting social, so the science around it well, and it should be noted that the tech companies that run these platforms have on their staff, people who study exactly that and figure out how to how to use a platform to exploit those emotions, because that obviously is good for their platform. They ve been exactly what they're doing when they treat their their platform to get more engagement and engagement for them is neutral, doesn't matter if its positive or negative its engagement, and that is the incentive there for them. What that does to us as human beings. What that does to democracy is a totally different question in their minds, but it in my bed, and so on Saturday or Sunday, my daughters were teenagers started. Talking about a girl, a teenage girl on Tik Tok who at they referred to her as though she were. You know
Sylvester alone and nineteen, seventy seven like that she was like incredibly famous and they end, and we would just eat out of nowhere famous, and we would all I would know what they were talking about. My didn't her name is Charlie, something or other, and the happened. There was big piece about her in the Washington Post three for four hours later profile of this sixteen year old girl from Connecticut who, in the last summer, put up a couple of videos on Tik, Tok, dancing, videos and then one of them just went insanely viral and made her. Instantly famous and she got an agent, she got a manager bike. The wine of Ohio asked her to do some kind of a tick tock dance to convince people, stay home during the corona virus, and you know that all happened, she seems like a nice kid and thence. The apparent
one of the things about this is that there are comments next to her, video that are just Scots thing like vicious me horrible and insulting. Her looks, and you know we're talking about her weight, and stuff like that and of course, and then she said she couldn't resist reading them and they made her feel. Horrible about herself in all this, and you have the end. That's the other interesting aspect of this is. There was a kind of culture of anonymous cruelty that not sure that we ever really, I mean, I think we all knew it cause of you, no worries About the mob, I believe, can read: cheeks those Julius Caesar to get a sense of what happens when people too, into a mob, and he has the main fear of democracy as a form before
The american revolution was that it was mob rule and that it would involve PETE. You know the mobbed being insane and doing crazy things, but this thing where people can directly here the most just things or read the most vicious things set about them and often pay. Who are the least prepared to deal with it emotionally, meaning teenagers. That again that strikes me as something socially new and terrifying? I mean so I don't actually know about that. Tell you the honest truth, because when I was growing up in the eighties, bully culture, was celebrated. Was not something that was stigmatized. This was behaviour that was so very much encouraged in. Media platforms and was my daily experience, has a very young child. What now? What are you referring to specifically as
aggressive behaviour is that were like that us attacking physically in your physical trade, Cindy very hostile and where we are at one in schools is it where's encouraged mean right. In german television run on same popular culture there we watch a lot of eighties films, especially the one strict attention There's always a bully, and there are there not always brought retribution like in the crowd, had her terror, actually figures of some in a celebration will like fat enough. There's always that that the fat there is the fat kid right. There is a lot of fat, shaming and eightys culture. You now the Now that, once you once, you are aware of it, go back and soon some of these products, annual, we'll be shocked at this boy always seems nominally like a villain. Am I am I wrong
nominally, learn advertising and rather, whether ubiquity of the of the bully that the fact that, like others, always gonna, be one the acceptance of it right by all thirty seconds of the physical abuse sexual abuse, mental verbal abuse. Are more ambiguous than they are presented today in american culture And today the stigmatization of bullying, behaviour among children is so pervasive and so ubiquitous and so powerful that it rarely encountered in the wild and when it is encountered in, the wildest is from well, who are immune to this kind of a social stigmatization which narrows the amount of people who own so well, it's more of that online, it is. Much more illusory, because it doesn't actually.
Just in the real world, but I don't know that a sixteen year old can necessarily tell the difference. I won a number two. There is also the possibility that this public. Creation of the of the zone in which all This kind of behaviour is unacceptable. Derives the id to the social media, much more aggressively millwards. If you can express it in person of their culture herb suppresses, it comes out somewhere else, that that would be my Jackson, to the notion that you know we're nicer than we used to be. I mean yes, I actually think that kid culture is nicer than it used to be Social media culture in which children are involved is a horror. Show I mean it is
what are we have those stories about, not just social media but email. Whatever I mean those social communications over devices right, encouraging other people to commit suicide, as teenagers there are ten such stories in America they're, not Zactly social media Rikers. It's it's texting. That's not. You know public in the same way, but you know or were were a message boards to count it talk people into being effective anorexic it. You know, I don't have it. Describe. All I'm saying is like the ocean of creating a public culture in which the human behaviour that is bad is excoriated and suppressed is what but it will come out somewhere because people are we are prone to set in the sparks fly upward and were all you know where you believe in original sin and
the ugliness of social media is a very interesting is a new thing, in other words like Charlie, that Tik Tok star is rewarded with ignore Samantha, money and and worldwide famed for almost nothing who knows what the long term consequences of reading this stuff about her will be. Wouldn't it that would have been better off, never haven't gotten famous in the first place, we're probably there is also a way in which the quantitative amount of this stuff, which is completely new, is, is also a problem in the same way that the qualitative issues you raised. Her are important quantitatively, if you're seeing a lot more of you know this kind of terrible verbal bullying or the keyboard warriors having their crazy fights. Are I mean? Look or even like the normalization of of violence. He then you tube is filled with these. You know people filming other people fighting like this
the very popular sub, John right, where you basically stand there and watch other people pummel each other, not the kind of fight club way, but just in light of this fight broke out, I'm gonna throw them into posted and get a lot of legs for it. So there's there's a lot of that continent. That's why we know Facebook has just paid a large settlement to some of its content moderators, because what they see as actually traumatized them to the volume of this stuff has, in effect to because it's difficult to escape it right. I mean it's, it pops up everywhere. So if you, if you have a teenager who who is getting bullied on one social media platform- oh they think I gotta Instagram, that's nice are no, they start getting. You know, remarks made them, then our goal and snatch had opened. Actually snapshot doesn't despair cause this guy took a screen. Cap of my embarrassing photo. I sent to meet it doesn't end and that the quantity of this is is also very new, and I think especially for young people. It's it's hard for them to get. There had a rounded and kind of extra
as the self discipline that we all like to tell them to have its very difficult to do that when it is just part of the air they breathe. So moving back to the specifics of of some of these stories the case of its void in in Minneapolis dead after this crop. The old on his throat, it appears, while said. I can't breathe. I can't breathe again it strikes me that its interesting to me that the cop. Wasn't aware enough to relent the minute that the complaining started. This. To me is where it gets interesting. Is this gap between the reality that we now live in and p well, who have not yet understood the name.
Or of the reality that we live in, because that cop is likely gonna end up going to pay I believe right he's likely to go, prison and maybe for the rest of his life and had he it's our clear how he got so triggered Have he wouldn't? If it wasn't one on video, that's what I'm talking about. He will go to Paris for the rest of his life. It's twenty twenty there, body. Can stories for five years? There was a terrible incident in the twin cities involving The killing of an unarmed black man, Philander Pastilles, that I assume the police department in Minneapolis went through some extensive sensitivity, training after that incident and yet somehow he could not restrain himself by the thought by some just inherent,
instinct for self preservation. That said, if I don't stop this, you know Somebody there might be some of the cross, the street with a camera like you know, there's theirs their body can whatever. Well it's not entirely impossible. He thought he wasn't doing anything wrong. We ve all seen that technique applied, unless lethal ways and its power, the overbearing and something that makes your pretty uncomfortable to watch. But it's not as though that's not practice. Well, I don't know. I see again, this seems to have been some talk about like the triggering of some id, the the notion that you know starting with not being done dispassionately in this place, for that noise, an emotional investment, yeah and, and of course it matter in moral terms that
there are a couple of moral things are attached to these. Whence now we're up where police office hers in oak go too far or appear to go too far, which is that we we we are they date. On the one hand, we understand that they have been given the power to use lethal force to protect the rest of us and that they, potentially in danger in every confrontation they have with some but he who is committing a crime and we and they are given very largely way and the law gives them largely way and juries give them leeway and all of that because they understand that this is a? U the role that we assign to police Susan are in this country. At the same time we are living in a low crime time. This is not nineteen. Seventy four, and by the way Seventy four cops hid in their cars like a didn't, write and subdue people.
That's one of the reasons that it was a high crime moment is that is that the policing style was to see of crimes after they happen, not try to stop them or interest. You know it were, like you know, get all aggressive in the middle of them, but that you know, is it worth it like theirs: there's a cost, benefit analysis time. There is some kind of moment like this, that you think they haven't, practised and and It's even more, it's even more startling to me because of Fernando Castillo this guy. What that they were, looking for, somebody who had passed a counter for twenty dollars go. This is a non violent offender there that the use of force to such an extent, even if he was mildly resistant, mean its instincts you'll to resist being right
to the ground. It doesn't really you know it's just not. This is not so I would again I would I didn't. I would like to know and understand what came just before that, and I think it's really important in each of these situations, because they take on a narrative and life of their own, on line absent context and in detail that each case has to be looked at a thoroughly. So we can say what happened to era garner. That was terrible was happened to this guy that these are all obvious, Miss uses of of force by police officers. There been other cases, though we're even where we have things on tape would get a stupid of it, but the police officer is only taped, responding to a previous provocation or a knife or a gun draw to each of these cases needs to be put in, tax and I just to go back to the central park thing. For me, one of the things that struck me was the very quick assumption in the logical leap that was made on line to the idea that, just because this woman called the police that Mr Cooper would die as a result which was really
that to me was also a notable moment because it shows that we ve become so. Adversarial in the stories we tell about law enforcement, depending on our own experience in background that there were I watch. I read all these people on twitter thing. She signing his death warrant by calling nine one one because she's, a black man- and I absolutely coming in you- see what happens in Minnesota. You can understand that logic, but again this week making this so manichaean in each case. We need to be much more nuanced when you bring up the her calling the the cops in central park situation, one of the darkest things about that exchange, I think, is her sort of utility, hurry approach to the idea that cop that that I'm gonna say it's an african american man. It doesnt it's not even sure There may not be racist. I have no idea, but it's not even really racist in the way she was asserting it. It was it was I
I'm you know, I'm I'm going to manipulate the racism. That's out there and it's going to cost you a chilling unanimous yeah. We talked about my favorite without which no one introduce of these viral videos and the retroactive policing of behaviors that were otherwise perceived to be normal until their introduced into the online environment. When they're all of a sudden discovered to be very problematic. There was a a man on the street interview with very young woman, her dog and delivering into camera this interview, which was probably nonsense, because I remember what you said, but what What happened later was the event is that she was in the middle of this interview and a young man comes up. We're out of nowhere and gives her there. Nice romantic, kiss and she's, positively entranced she's just beaming ear to ear and is like text me about this guy, and I interviewed the guy- and I was like address, came over me and it was a fine time and it was that it was a human moment
and then it was introduced into the online environment as this human moment, and it was discovered to be essentially sexual assault in broad daylight and the institution. A broadcast. This had to apologize for broadcasting it and probably The mob is now out for this guy's head and were working feverish It's a convinced, this woman, that the pleasurable experience she thought she had was actually post traumatic so God, you there's one of those or another and in which If that had never been introduced, the online environment, these people would have had a very different experience than they are now being condition you have again, which is one of criminal, which is a criminal hon task is important in this one. No is actually right because they were it. Wasn't it weren't they all being filmed like hanging out apart, like they were kind of relaxing in the ocean, was our whose, where mass, how do you feel about this etc etc? Is kind of like it, I can tell you if a man on the street walked up and kissed me. He would end up on the ground, and so it is time to get
You have a black Adele's really to stay because it has a black belt so that this is nobody said it I'm serious, that's a job. It is therefore contacts. You can absolutely see that what it, but that's, not the point. It is really important because everyone it through one lens, only right there not like if you're, that at a big concert in outdoor concert and someone, you know, and you get groped it still groping it. If he didn't wanna you, you know she shut the guy on the way offer whatever consecrated, but but it was not that context like her reaction is now being suggests, even though it wasn't invite it right. It was on a level consensual but we are being told now to condition everyone who, in the partook in this experience, remotely to believe but to be non consensual in all animal all the associated penalties. The society impose
does on that kind of behaviour should be applied here said and even with airlines experience, and this moment respond to that- I'm not here as if she would now tell a different story will so were so we're a couple of years Ask that notorious moment at which the radio station announced that it was no longer gonna play baby. It's called outside. Remember because baby, it's hell, that's how a song in which the wolf you know sort of like verbally Euro is is, is, is a seduction game with up with a woman in the house, he's trying to get her not to leave and is playing with alcohol and all of that, and he is resisting him in a way. It is clearly not resist She is not really resisting him at its it. It's a dance in a game and it's one of the widow songs ever written about it take it out of the with the context, the meaning, the actual met, a meeting of the song, of course-
sounds like assault. What's in this drink, you know My father's gonna worry. You know I gotta go. You know you got it you're, not letting me out the door, you know, and so anything pulled from its own meaning answered transcribed without its like. It's like the problem of email right in in governments over email again getting back to the cut of the weirdness of law, if an phones or whatever that. Tone, is impossible to judge and email, or there are people who are bad or good at tone right so again, twitter for the relevant example of this, where, if you were an iron nest or you know, were inclined to say a thing. Scoffing, Lena scoffing. We ironic way about something, as are as I as I was there well, who doubt
Stan irony. There are a great many people who don't understand irony in who don't get it and therefore breed something that is. The opposite, the it's totally intended to express the opposite of what it is expressing, and they don't know that they can't see. They can't understand the queue in the sentence. That makes it clear that its ironic, the excellent some points, the italic, whatever it is, and therefore a gigantic misunderstanding. Erupt that is irresistible, and there is something about all of this that we're talking about that. But that leaves thing bereft of context, of course, the worst possible story of this It wasn't, even a video, was a photograph that came from a video was both a video and a photograph which was the key rotation between the kids from Covington, high school and being dropped. The guy playing the drum in them me. I guess it was,
near the washing memorial and memorial, I think was like a memorial was somewhere them all, and and how it looked like these kids were being assaultive or whatever of this native american man. It turned out that it was almost exactly the opposite, but everybody judged it because it remove from context, and there are some about our moment. That removes everything from context, and so we were all watching. This show upload on Amazon which, as you have said about twenty years in the future and there is a fantastic brilliant little moment where woman reaches contacts, a guy and tender, and he comes to your house and they decide that there, gotta be intimate and they both take off their shirts and they each have a camera on their chests.
And they each look into somebody are the others. Cameron say I consent and then once they ve done, that they can they now they then feel free to, because that the dance, the social dance. That is the story of civilization can no longer be. It's for you are free to misunderstand now, and so that is incredibly dangerous, the fact, by the way- and this is the thing about them- that idea that Amy, Coopers, writing, christen, Coopers death warrant or that, as the mayor of Minneapolis said, you know being black country shouldn't be shouldn't, get you killed. That is, of course, true that being black shouldn't get you killed, and it does get you killed like we can number. The incidents in which there are the you know
on our on our hands over the last five years? And there are you know, forty million. African Americans, the United States and when you could number The number of incidents in which police officers do something really horrible, involving black person on on and two hands or or in Antwerp hands and toes you can say These are not representative incidents, and yet they because of the way they are covered, they feel very representative to people who are not, I think, they're not being. Not genuine or or being you know, hyper by like or something when they say that the sort of thing means that you know it's just dangerous to go around. I'm your daily life being an african american mail
There is something annoying about people who introduced statistics. In this moment, I get it statistically arrest related deaths. We actually have data on this. Now, for a long time, we didn't But now we have pretty good aggregate data from local police forces and arrests, related deaths and whites are more likely to be caught up in that because they're just more of them, but that doesn't rendered this particular event. Any less important. Or the outcry related to it, any less relevant and heart wrenching and but now, and I can really important NEA important for society to address and societal terms, but but part of the outcry attempts to extra away from the one event to to do these to the larger and
and does so without reference to this, the two and giving them to help. It would be helpful if a particular, the activists who are trying to draw attention to these incidents took again contacts when these moments happening the outrage about them, isn't about merely that man, it's it's a history of, perhaps you know being new, followed in stores. If you walk in because you're not wait, and you know being being, you know that the low level harassment that I think a lot of african american people feel or have experience from law enforcement predictive. They grow up in a high crime area where law enforcement has more of a regular presence in their lives, and it does. If you dont, live in a high criteria that level of frustration and the kinds
ways they? U have to navigate the world with that in mind, boil over in these moments because they ve had nowhere else to go right, I mean you, can you can complain among among your friends and family about the sooner this cop was kind of being a jerk to me today when he pulled the work. My light was out or something but that adds up at accumulates, and I think that there is a legitimate amount of forestry and anger. That boils over these moments that that I think, if your white American, you should really listen to with respect and and think about ways to try to understand that, because that hasn't been used. Periods for certainly for middle and upper middle class White Americans. If you're, not Europe apart American, you have more interaction with with law enforcement, but I think its useful bright, but I've been out your breath. I think that is an important caviar. That the interactions with people who interact with police officers? That will that
bound to be most of their interactions are not unless they are like old fashioned, beat cops, who you now stop at every, business and say walk him and say hello or whatever to wander around the the official interactions are all you know at best Neutral and mostly negative, and so, if you don't have them. You would be inclined to feel positively about police officers and if you do have them you do, whoever you are. If you, if someone stops you for speeding, if or something got your hackles go up. Slick I mean I didn't do anything that bad. I was just going fifty miles over the speed limit you're. Just all, We're doing is just try to make your quota now you'd be stupid to get confrontational with a cop about that, because again, prudence would dictate you don't.
I ask that situation and get you know like create more trouble than his words? Just pay them to it out, just pay. Two dollars and and and move on. But it is the case. I think that this all involves p who who are who are more likely to yeah to have some kind of interaction with authority. But I would say also that the that the yeah this question of, like going through life being looked at an I'd suspiciously. That's up! That's ay! I don't know that is our third that is almost irresistible because its twenty five years now, Sir The crime wave broke twenty five years. Crime is down in aggregate about eight percent from its high I in nineteen. Ninety ninety one: that's us not that's us as murder, that's robbery,
red, larceny, mugging, reform of crime is down. Between sixteen eighty percent nationwide and yet. It's not clear to me that people storekeeper shopkeeper people like that still are still have this ancillary sense of unease and lack of safety. That may be a kind of atavism you know Anne and not really reflective of the moment, and I think police officers also can sometimes be from a culture that basically views the public that they are intending to serve as a hostile population or even an enemy population, and that the real problem and that it in So you like New York, for example, the training stored, merriment amount of trading that has been done to change that aspect of policing.
In the souls of policemen is. Is decades old and has been believable, successful, ok. So we should just examined sort of a case study a psychological case study about twos driving. This conversation now primarily on the left so enclosure who is seer senator representing, Minneapolis the statement, pretty measured statement about this thing, calling a horrifying and got wrenching instance of an american men dying at the hands of law enforcement. It's a tragic loss of life cycles. Immediate action. There must be a complete and thorough investigation of what occurred. I must be served for community, etc, so forth, is being raked over the coals by the left for failing to display the appropriate level of emotion. What is this Here is not what this wasn't Laszlo. She said anything wrong. What she said It was not emotion.
Currently high dudgeon enough comments. With the moment that the left wants to from their elected officials in it. It's hard to, I don't think that's entirely disingenuous in an effort to throw brush back budget the button campaign which is getting her for VP, and they don't want to be VP, although that certainly part of it I think it's genuinely a desire among people who, engage in this online environment to see respond to the award reward structure that, demands of you, emotional engagement with topics, not logical engagement with topics. You have to express some level of. Some are some level emotional attachment to the to the social investment rather. The situation in IRAN that's nine tenths of the criticism that you will get online, not that what you said was wrong, but how you said it wasn't
and sir. It with the moment at least that's my experience, and I goes back to the other, General topic of this conversation wishes the the way in which you engage with these controversies. You behave really totally. Is most as important or more, then the substance of your engagement, I disagree with you by the way, because I really do think this is entirely about the Biden that the attacks on naming club, which are in the last like twelve hours, I think gently part of it. It's all about get Stacy Abraham globally with his eyes for not you. I grew civilising her criticism due notice, like she's, very right to civic and kept right didn't say all cops are racist, which is kind of what the emotional response on line has been again, understandably, but also wrong like by the way just work, include without rank politics. We
talk a little about polling, days ago and about where Donald Trump is and the numbers remain terrible. If you are a trump fan, you should be writing. The White House makes kids should get off twitter because the last five or six days, a bad for him. He is now down to. Basically an aggregate about six points to Biden. Fighting is approaching. Fifty percent In Pennsylvania, binds up six in Michigan binds up five in Arizona binds up Ford for where to up three in Wisconsin, binds up three and the Senate races in, for example, there's a there's, a high grant, Arizona Paul that has more Kelly. The Democrat ten per it's over Martha Mc Sally or yet TED. Fifty one, forty one
The joke here is that you know I mean we keep talking the three states. If you know Biden, wins Arizona and in Florida he can lose measure given Pennsylvania. So this is this not not good and the universal condemnation of trumps tweeting about just garb people should start taking that pretty seriously because He is He is retreating into some comfort zone. That is not good for him at the notion that one I presume that he knows what he's doing is belied by the fact that he doesn't know what he's doing, talking about this before you got on as there is a sort of a pandemic related aspect to this political content, the president faces himself, and so the White House has begun talking a lot about the plight of the elderly
and there I for their efforts to maintain in other their standards of living and comfort, and how and they used up. You know some the voices on the right which were otherwise more lackadaisical about this thing have now, to really pound the table. In defence of the condition is that the elderly are facing and how their not being cared seem to or cared for further by the younger generation, which votes disproportionately democratic and political outlines of that are pretty clear and obvious in the incentive structures, clear and obvious, and the effort on the part of some two. Perhaps give it away from saying it's ok to go back outside too Now that you cannot go back outside for fear of these dangerous democratic voting, young people, will restore the conditions that prevailed in a couple of months ago, where everybody was on the same page about the threat of this virus and where there is no longer enough
follow along the illogical wines, anymore. I have to Ireland guess was yesterday's podcast. Where eyes, I said I don't I think that is use has Support Trop up to this point you have baked in his behaviour and that this Isn't there are no more thresholds for forward in terms of conduct for four years sure finally write him off I might have been wrong. I think I think this this last one by one. Actually newly turned off some people. This it is well this action nations and insinuations regarding just Scarborough. I think this when I They turned off some people who were up to that point, had sort of thought they bait everything into Emmy cake. Even if it's just throw clearing to hear it from national review in the Wall Street Journal Editorial Board its it's
it's a shot of crossing, nothing, look, I've United Citizen, you could be sued for defamation for what he is doing right. I mean that their there that the accusations he's making in in a non political, none president making them context, would lead to real world consequences. For most people, and this not just saying I, if he's been, you ve, been doing this for the last couple of weeks being relatively unstable online and behaving in ways that that you would say. Ok, this person needs institutionalization. The kind of comments that he's making really offensive stuff talking about another. What was the nineteen fifty stereotyped than he folks. In an interview with, I think it was the new post where he was talking about the two female reporters Oliver. What for a name, is at the sea and then all right all right. Thank you any other rewarder, some nineteen fifties model of female compartment that he said they were. They had not met with
everything that has just grotesque. It's a horrible thing to say: why would you even so? I would you think that much less say it out loud. Well, you know. So the real question is: does he have magic power Worse, I can say now: ok good arousing got up, but you know, but not with it but the, but that the Trump fan I genuinely believes. The trump has some kind of mystical understanding of the american luck required that libraries, Hillary Clinton, that's what he had in the electoral college. I know, but, as you know right so, he had loved him here then the electoral college, and he may have luck with binding them, and who knows you know we, there are all kinds of things, but what not gonna, get from Biden, I dont believe unless something changes is the sense. That Biden is hateful, which is, I think, people
Hillary Clinton hateful, and you can think that Biden is a fool as I do, and that is allowed mouth as I do and that you can have had experiences with Biden where he started talk you and student and didn't stop for forty five minutes as I have. Dread. The idea of him being president, as I do, and still not think that he's hateful, He trump may need the hate, on the other side, simply to generate that thing that we talked about, which is that people who don't like both of them, don't like her more Didn't like her more and so he got the benefit of those people, and I just don't see how he's gonna get that would benefit, Count me as someone who thinks Trump might have magical powers in the way you d find him in it. You know in terms of a sort of, The understanding something about the american
and somehow being able to transform that, in political terms, I'm so I dont know what he he is going to need something and that's where that magic, the dipper, the preset perceived magic comes in, is that he serve. He create the unforeseeable something in in a way that allows him that it allows in the leg up that you couldn't have seen beforehand and he asked. In all his fire on the press. Every White house breathing Every single response to the questions from Kelly Makin earning is turning the question back on the media. On the media. Every single day in the media is not gonna beyond the ballot in November, back to nineteen ninety to go back over a boat another Maria Raillery right, that's what they don't care can a prepared for matter what Nobel in January, twenty twenty one, the press will still be. The press and the President might not be the president anymore
Eventually, you have to train your fire on the actual person is gonna, be on the ballot box. Conversation briefly back for accommodation a couple weeks ago, if these are conditions what prevail in November. The president lose is a pretty significant margin in the electoral college. Mrs three hundred fifty electoral college votes, he, u resurrects his political career in twenty one, twenty twenty two who knows he will be humiliate, but here's the thing there is there are two possibilities, one of which is that this is an, and this is not testable as a proposition except by the election right over its trump believe it was that he has this mystical understanding and that that's what got him elected. I believe that's what he believes and therefore he will not be talked out of it. So
and nobody knows anything and hit an egg aisy. His political advisors are a bunch of amateurs anyway, like he's got Jared on this side. Is that this one here he's got Brad par scale. Who was a website designer he's got no reason to believe that they know any more about politics or have a lot to tell him about. Politics may be that he doesn't know, even if he inclined to listen to such people right. So it's not what he is doing can only be proved to have been a bad strategy by the election cause. There's no and the polls that the poles Bad doesn't count and nothing counts in that in that regard. There is one interesting thing which I I think I allude to the other day. But there was an interesting piece by Rhine Lizzie in political about this, which is. If the recovery is view shaped, if thee,
Virus really does have go away in the summer and basically, every everything comes back. Businesses start rehiring and all that we're seeing these unbelievably horrible numbers of the sort that we ve never seen before. Right, like unemployment, thirty, eight million unemployment claims and all that that are just grotesque. But the recovery. We'll show numbers that we ve never seen before either as Jason Furman. The Obama the cat had of Albums Council decommissioning advisers said in some private meeting with Democrats, which is like you're, going to see a growth rate of thirty percent in the quarter in which the recovery cut. If there is a view shared recovery, if, if everything just sort of Russia's back to normality and true could be running on the basis of those numbers and not the virus, and I made it the case in peace that went up on the website yesterday that I don't I don't know if this matters, Donald Trump
job approval ratings. His head to head polling has been virtually unchanged over the course of this, paradigm shaping event a parallel public health crisis we haven't seen in a hundred. Here is an unprecedented economic crisis. Have also Stan nothing do his job approval ratings and his head general election pulling, because the can that prevail only in the economy and they didn't before this. The press Clint, had a pretty static job approval rating of a fluctuate a little bit, but I had a hard ceiling on a hard floor and it didn't budge past those and a lot of it has to do with his personal conduct and compartment and how the guy behaves and then a lot of people find that pretty distasteful, more people find it distasteful. Then don't but remember he only needs to win those three states except, of course, if you
loses Arizona and Florida. Where I doubted not if these numbers prevail. Today, you won't get the forty six percent of the General election boat that he got last time and can afford to lose a single vote right, we're Louis thirty thousand, but indeed, yeah, but I'm just saying, though, had so so all sorts of unprecedented things happen and no one's ever run on a thirty percent growth quarter. You know that's and if at all, needs is to get everybody to vote for him who voted for me, ass time. Maybe for a thirty percent growth in that you know in the third quarter, will be sufficient to to have that happen, yet rehired they, they beg their unemployment insurance they get their jobs back. The disruption. Wasn't that terrible, except for the horrible unplug? this of living through the virus experience, and so there we are
but I know the weird thing: if, if national Review in Wall Street Journal- and everybody wanted the president to stop talking about this, yet the joke Barbara thing they should have not talked about it, or been like, and I somebody has an answer, some questions on behalf of those Garber, because when you criticise him his impulses to double people quadruple down as he is doing right now on twitter, talk about the need for a cold case file to reopen. He can't let go of these engagements and I got everything. I've and everybody knows that about him, which suggests that the ground, is being laid for the post trump era nobody gets gets, back to where we started witches, he can't let go for same reason that I got off twitter. Greater twitter makes it more difficult, rather less to let go in one of these fights you, you It engages a part of your feet
I don't want. You have naturally grass about the dopamine it before you don't also we weren't you, it's a reward mechanism yeah and he can't stop. Because the medium is is medium because yak as he gets, the dopamine heads from it But if you were under the impression that the the Trump era was going to last beyond January, twenty twenty one, you probably wouldn't want to plant a flag on this one, just to preserve human once but you are, is establishing conditions that you can go back to when you need to say I was on this side of the issue in him out. It's gonna be chaos if doesn't win if you loses big, that's one thing. If we lose a small, it's another Nobody understands american power, six right now, no one in the Republican Party understands american politics right now too.
Doesn't really understand it and then and what you're gonna get is a kind of free for all like testing of populism, of pop list arguments and lines and approaches that is given they're gonna, be it's just gonna be facets. It be a kind of what The call those things when at agencies go at the take their they. They company says it's a bake off right when a company said that remove its it's the firing dvd now and it's gonna hi, it's it's gonna go go and have every one come to them, and Ford is gonna, look for a new ad agency and there's a bake off, and every agency in the Congo, the comes up with a new product in a new line of pr for them, that's the Republican Party after Trump you're gonna have Josh Holly, saying that you're gonna have Tom cotton, saying that you're gonna have Larry Hogan being this year, We have this one being that this one
her Karlsson Sean Hannity, who, as you know, Ben Shapiro deal hotel. I don't even know who the hell we're talking about, and there's gotta be its maybe a fascinating thing- to see bridges, people just gonna, throw stuff out long Mozilla lies in the way you described. It needs to be more like crabs in a bucket and then likely. You know these. The civilised presentation of you. I see this for the first six months after he loses, but its a bit that there are that that back candy and multi process for a party that has been unable to keep all the poles of its big tent and the Republican Party is, is in disarray, so maybe it's a mean. You could see the silver lining this. It has to regroup at us to figure out what it believes in and going forward demographically. It has been needing to do that for ten years, so it could be, could have a happy ending,
Also also the dopamine had problem. Is there too? I guess we should. We should probably bring this to a close, but I mean the double mean. Quality is true supplies negative dopamine to Democrats and everybody liked that includes positive dopamine. Whatever, like Trump has been this Zenos the saga Colossus in our public life, and if were to lose. This is where no is saying the theory that I've retailed myself that you know he doesn't go away: he'll one and twenty twenty four he'll never stop running, but also, you know you think, think the media aren't gonna, wanna float him constantly to remind people How terrible he was you think. Joe Scarborough going to talk about from for an hour every morning in two twenty one, if trump tweets and does all that stuff like that, the country is addicted to drop in,
its addicted to its like carry nation was an alcoholic know that theory the coronation was every, but the alcoholic that now Pollack was she was addicted to trying to get alcohol out of public life and couldn't get over it. Just like a drunk can't stop drinking and the entire pope. Local culture. The I'd revolves around this one guy and few losers in November. He doesn't just disappear right. You have you been this thing, but you know, unfortunately, for him exactly the we can say, is five addiction without having an office there you go. So that's it. That's an interesting, we will never get beyond anything. So that we bring this extraordinarily long, rambling podcast to occur. Through close, I apologize for the ramble
were Noah Christine Napalm jump outwards, keep the candle burning.
Transcript generated on 2020-08-03.