Welcome to the Commentary magazine daily. Podcast today is Wednesday July fifteenth when slash twenty the new tax day, the Pandemic Tax Day so get yet Europe taxes in, if you haven't already not that I need to tell the listeners of this podcast when tax is but It just popped into my head: I'm jump on words. The outer commentary with me, as always, executive editor, a green while I am I Senora Christine Rosen High, Christine Icon and associate editor nor Rossman High Noah, so

I would order only consider the sort of thing a gigantic explosion of interest, enthusiasm in a tiny little world in which show that in which we live. But I think the resignation of New York Times, opinion editor M columnist, very wise yesterday and the incendiary letter of resignation that she sent to age Salzburg worthy of the head of the New York Times is the sort of thing that has broken out into into general discussion outside of the realm of Aarhus. Been hired in who's been fired at you know, inside journalism terms is the question of whether or not the world of the cancel culture and the world of this sum, the greater

ravelling as as as ape, has has dubbed it the effects that it is now having on on people and on institutions that which is really the subject of Barry's a resignation letter Barry, I should say, is a friend of mine. In someone that, dumb to my, I offered a job the eleven years ago, when she was getting our college friends of aims? and some unknown to all of us, so we are not gonna, be empowered, in our conversation about this. But I stipulated that I say that the beginning, because I don't really think that the question of whether or not you like better I love bury or whether you dont like very, is material to this, the subject of what what it was. She was discussing whether or not there is a.

Real phenomenon going on that that she has diagnosed in this resignation letter so who wants to go there? First. There is some first of all think anyone contemplating getting involved. Not just in journalism, but in any sort of political or civil society related origin recent profession in the next five to ten years should read her letter and they should see fishes it's kind of a it, an innocent Jeremiah and way it's not just an explanation of why she felt she needed to leave the time but it really is a warning about us, a broader, an insidious, cultural decay. That's going on in some of our most vital and important cultural institutions, and it's certainly not limited to the New York Times that the times has has unfortunately, given us the extremely clear example of it. I'll know this. What struck

about the letter in part was her, and I am quite sure that she didn't even give us all of the examples of harassment that she has as experienced working at the New York Times. But if you would Take us take very out of it and put any minority in the position of someone who, on a slack channel, is being sent. Acts emerges by her colleagues or his colleagues, you at the New York Times and then writes a lead. Saying I felt you know harassed, I needed to resign say say, for example, is Nicole Hannah jobs who had resigned and she's one of the things she cited for. The reason for leaving was because she feeling this threat with an ax emerging said to her on his lap channel just that singular episode would have been enough to raise a hue and cry about races. About any sexes about any other things. When bury did that when she went when she sort of gave that, just as a kind of passing example people laughed. I mean people at our own institution right. Well, we shouldn't even believe this cynical Hannah Jones said

everyone's assuming that everything she put in this letter is true, the the collective group. Think that's going on right now among the people who had driven her away from her job and the weird and tortured ways there to justify her resignation as not being part of the council culture. It tells you a lot because the camp a part of it. Doesnt require that should be fired. It is the culture part of it. We should focus on in a culture that that was as toxic as the one she was ended. The times does force good people out. Smart people will walk away from that because life's too short and she's too talented too, to be harass it. That way, and in that institution, very didn't have to justify the with examples. The episodes of her internal harassment and mockery and the conditions that drove out of business to show they freely offer it themselves. They leak there.

Slack traps which are by the way discoverable if anybody's interested in the legal profession now there are there other on Twitter proudly proclaiming the links they went to make her views anathematised in her presence anathematised, and they did a very effective job of driving her business. Solutions, not cancel culture. They say because she's free to go anywhere else where we can ignore her failing to understand that that is the definition of what they're talking about the cooling of the liberal mine is an ongoing process and its one that they don't seem to want to recognize, but they were freely able to diagnose it when it was the conservative right that was engaging in this kind of activity there seems to be to related aspects to what berries letter was was covering one is the narrowing of opinion,

and the massaging out of anything potentially controversial that was, would be slated to run in the time and the second is the personal harassment. And they and they are linked in in exactly the worst way, which is to say that if you even propose being open to unorthodox a liberal opinion, then you are, are due for harassment. It is in some ways I think it was. It was the letter that the Harpers letter should have been right because it with their was there was no it didn't. There is no throat clearing about how good yes, we know Republicans and the right

crackdown on free speech, and we know Donald Trump as a threat to democracy, but hey, we should do little better. It was. It was a much much more on scathing, account and immediate account of a very dire emergency situation where it will, I think we can. We can also we can separate out the sea from stance is that she found herself in into different stream. So there is on the one kind of workplace, unpleasantness and being attacked in her own workplace for Being someone who held views were not with him, you know that narrow band. That is acceptable among a lot of her colleagues and many people goes through that sort of unpleasantness right. But this thanks

also the wine into actual actionable behaviour in which she is not was not being protected by her employer from harassment that is clearly illegal, ok, hostile work environment set up Unlawful discrimination, people saying to her things like Oh you're, writing about the Jews again or being demeaned in an official slack channel of the paper, demeaned am defamed and libelled, and no apparently was discipline for this behaviour. She has grounds. According to this letter for a gigantic lawsuit without Quest

and we know that that loss it would probably be resolved in her favour. Simply because As we know what people have said at the times on twitter about her confirming the date, the details that she put in her resignation letter. She is making it very clear that that is not an approach she wishes to take, as she says, I'm no legal expert, but I know that this is wrong. Their terms role, this unlawful discrimination, husk work, environment, constructive discharge, right, you're not allowed to do this to someone that you work with, and certainly if it becomes known to your employers that this behaviour is going on you, the employer, is obliged by workplace regulations to intervene.

In to make it stop. But this is where I think, the shamelessness of the cop. This is the culture point again, because what she said in her letter was that she did. You know that the privately to her her bosses were saying you're, some brave to put up with this. This is so great, but publicly an end to the actual people who were behaving in this unlawful way. They did nothing, but I think that it's the shamelessness of it that especially on social media by her colleagues that struck me as new, because it to be, if you were going to be harassed and work for your ideological views, are your background or your raise your sex or any number of things, people kind? I did it quietly you know it was done behind the scenes you certain experienced it, but it wasn't a publicly endorsement. Wasn't publicly praise

These people are getting euro. Thousands of re tweets for saying hateful things about their own colleague and they do it because they know they won't get fired for it. They know that their position is secure and that a part of it that, I think, is that the tone and the culture part of it- that's really important now to emphasise that is different because it didn't used to be quite that blatantly obvious right now. I mean what she says in the letter. So so we have the we have the workplace. Discrimination with her bosses are not dealing with which it which is, as I say, is actually a matter that should she choose to, she would have the x in it in a real box. Which I, which he apparently has decided to go in a different direction, which I think is is is admirable because while you could get a payday out of it, it would be distracting. It would be time consuming and she is making her brief for herself in a in in a better

and more serious way in the very fact that that her letter has been responded to on twitter by people at the times like Nicole Hannah, Joe behaving as though everything she said, and the latter is true. The promise you just whining Jesus whining and in complaining out of her position, a privilege that that just like enhances and strengthens the case. So then the question is: what does it mean that she is sitting there? Having people say to her in private, oh you're, so brave now berry is not married. She doesn't have children, so she is not the sort of person who is looking at it where to go into opposition inside the times or quit. You know like Jane: she is in a better fire, position than other people would be, who can't simply quit their jobs or in I'll, make a huge stand, because they would get themselves until a kind of trouble that financial trouble

generally at this moment that is zero impossible to to face said as she says, it should not take courage to go into my office should not she. She does bribes yourself as a centrist, which I think is a pretty fair description of where she is politically. And she says it should not take courage for a centrist go into work in the morning and then she describes what is going on at the paper. It takes two days and two days into jobs to say that the Tom caught not bad, fell short of our standards right, but there we attached and editors note on a travel story about, Darfur, though the city of Israel, shortly after was published because it failed to touch on important aspects of job, is make up in its history, meaning stuff about Arabs living there

then she points out that there are still not appended to Cheryl Straits. Fawning interview with the writer Alice Walker, a proud anti semite who believes in lizard Illuminati the paper of record is more and more the record of those living in a distant galaxy. One whose concerns are profoundly were from the lives of most people, this is a galaxy which to choose just a few recent examples: the Soviets This programme is lauded for its diversity. The dioxin of teenagers in the name of justice is condoned and the worst assistance in human history includes the United States alongside Nazi Germany got, of course, referring to Isabel Wilkinson, PETE Wilkerson piece of the New York Times, saying that Erica, has a caste system like Nazi Germany, so What we have here is an ideological of a place that is any illogically out of control

and the idiot logical, effective, it's out of control is too is to say that it is acceptable and will not and an unanswerable that, person who does not hold with the ideological line, be tortured by her work by her fellow workers and abused and a based until she can take it no longer, and that is where we get into the interesting aspect of the council culture, because the purpose of cancel culture is not to cancel any individual person. It is to make sure that everybody else falls in line, not the people who have transgressed, who are now getting attacked and cancelled. It's not about them and get their scalp in its fine. It's not about Joshua.

Hats at Princeton saying that he doesn't like you know. He doesn't like this letter put out by the prince the faculty demanding you know wholesale, you know, sort of racial ism at the university gets awful for him and it's awful that they attack him. That everybody else and academia, not this very eminent scholar of you know the classics and Christianity makes every body else and anybody else. It is a warning shot, two to silence everybody else from creating the impression the real impression that the views that are held by the counsellors do not represent the majority views of people in any given profession and also touch. I did something very particular about bear

his case, because it and it's worth delving into a little bit, because you have to consider the completely she is. She became such an outsize lightning rod for this stuff over her tender at times, and you have to wonder why and, as we have said and written the council, culture is all about destroying the liberals, sort of who don't fall into line right. It's not. She bat bury, has not said things. You know it's a review now extreme right wing trompe and things that is not at all her transgression. She has in recent years, in fact, considered herself and and self described as as a liberal and her massive offence, then, is to push the the boundaries of what it means to be a liberal today into insufficiently radical

territory. Vanity fair is Joe punk error. The pretty revealing line she said he said that the oasis, Conventionally liberal commentary quite often appeals to conservatives, perhaps her greatest Precisely if you really think about Greece, a brief digression wanting it just occurred to me is that very slender, very subversive really puts the lie to the effort on the part of New York Times staffers to claim that the continent that meeting. Open, safe at work. They said this in mass. It was language that was apparently crafted by the union, designed to pressure the editorial staff to attack this Ipad and say that didn't meet their standards, and I do nothing about it. Cuz I. Then she actually did so. As she has evidence to suggest this is unsafe and work work environment. She resigned as a result of something that none of these staffers

would ever do no one would sacrifice much less in this environment. Cushy opportunity is like the world's leading the job of the world's leading paper, so really does expose the extent to which that was laughter, a political, political effort to to manufacture the ideal since an unsafe work environment when it really wasn't for them. It is for her. So there's a Devils bargain that happened here. As I see it, which is that the New York Times facing long term decline in about twenty fourteen, twenty fifteen, all kinds of things at a dead were working at all of that.

DE. The coming of tromp proved to be an extraordinary lifeline for the times, even though a lot of left us think that the times was responsible for trumps election because story that the paper did in October of twenty. Sixteen, the turn out to be entirely right, which is that there is no evidence that tromp was a russian agent We then read about for three years, but how you see the times were right at the moment that it was needed. You know they gave Trump cover and then, of course, Mueller spent forty billion dollars and found the drum there was no evidence that tramples agent Russia, okay, so but the times afterwards positions itself as the speaker of truth in a time of lies and deception in the sea. And succeeds beyond its wildest expectations. It is now with question the most successful publication american terms of circulation that I think it's up to around.

Six million paid subscribers between all in all its more successful many magazines, more successful them cooking, and all that than numbers. No newspapers ever held its more successful many magazines more successful than you know, then that than anything and by positioning itself as the liberals, Saviour of Amerika, it had made a promise not only to its readers but even to its staffers and to the world of general opinion that it was going to be- and I put it this way Has anybody really thinks of it this way? But it was going to be the commentary of the left, that is to say it was going to reflect the valley, snooze and ideas and beliefs of its editors and its staff as a consensus view represented by them of its readership and and of a proper anyone in America this is actually a new spin furnace

papers over the last hundred years. Never said it s specifically, and there was an so any time the times has deviated from presenting the kind of orthodox view that, in effect, it has promised its readers and the people who follow it. It gets it gets a tat handed to it, people scream enrage. They hire Conservative calmness, Brett Stevens, he writes a column skeptical of global warming and the entire place goes insane as though there aren't twenty two other columns that week, that say the opposite: ok, this is this. Is it an import another important thing about? What would the sort of law in the sand. That very leaving shows us as well. Sort of a sub taxes is no was saying earlier about some of the other points if it was just thought her leaving the opinion page. That would be one thing, but the trends

nation in the sort of revolution in Times style journalism that you're describing John had it. It has that wall between opinion and reporting is now basically gone, and I think, This is why this is what the demand of its of it's sort of more activists, leaning, staff members and its more general progressed Audience one they want to see reporting that actually reflects their view. They dont they're, not happy just reading. You know a very progressive in peace or editorial like that used to satisfy them. Now they want to see all of that influence in the reporting this in this It is not just at the time to see people like Wesley Lowry have been arguing, they call it moral, morally, focused journalism, but it's just ideology and then They now want that in the actual reporting- and this is why we're seeing wish fruitless thing it with regard to the civil unrest posts, George Floyd, in terms of how things are reported,

how looting is reported or how violence is reported, and I think we're gonna progressively see more of that. As the years go on will see it. I'm right. On foreign policy we haven't seen a point is much, but I think that to me is what's really worrisome down the line? I mean it's well. What lowries advocating is an impossible enterprise where he advocates is for journalists to pursue, not objectivity which something you can actually pursue, but moral truth is moral truth as though mankind has engaged in the pursuit of Moral truth for his easel hasn't done a very good job of figuring out yet cause that's cause. He's lying lie. The moral Clara The thing is a why it's bullshit about power. It is bullshit, it is about power and and you call it moral clarity as a way of some of us undercutting the fact that what you are saying is that I want to be

control and my view should be dominant, and I therefore have moral clarity and you don't and your standard, which was something else supposedly is not only misbegotten but is immoral and my Standard is moral. This is the ultimate. This is the ultimate power of cancel culture is that it empowers those who wish to silence and shut down and get rid of other people to do so, not by saying. I don't like you, you make me sick, go away, but you're, not only you not only shouldn't have your voice heard, but your evil you're wrong. Your bad and I am good and it turns out that is incredibly doctor right. I mean that we know this throughout history. That's part of how the mob that's part of how a mom works. Is it the mob believes it is doing so

righteous and it no longer is interested in niceties work. You know or or work, or you know some form of understanding that life is complicated and so What Wesley lowries doing is bullshit and what this Man, this is bullshit, it's not gonna, fail it succeeding. Succeeding because it puts a smiley face on a totalitarian face. That is the meaning of it. As far as as, as I said, when we started The point here is not to silence, bury it is to make where there are no more berries. That's the point. The point is: what comes after, not what is going on Oh right and bury says here's what you need. What you're learning from this your mind, your own peril, never risk commissioning a story that goes against the narrow.

It never believe an editor publisher who urges you to go against the grain. Eventually, the publisher will came to the mob. The editor will get ardor reassign and you'll be hung out to dry. Therefore this is an effort to extirpate from american journalism and indeed from institutions, because we can now talk about the San Francisco musing of art, for five minutes to extirpate from the world of liberal institutions, views that do I represent this new revolutionary consensus and, and this one one more beat on that, because the people who are responding in instead of gleeful joy that that she left the times are actually proving her point, because there was that one of the tweets that came out recently was a womanhood pitched a piece to bury the times and then publish their email correspondence had sea ice when at basically I want to add to the conflagration of all of us that all of us are dancing around the was her career

and in it you see, bury being very thoughtful. Editor she's obviously been pitched a kind of stand a progressive boring, not at all. Take on some issue and she very politely is like hey. You know thanks. You know if you could maybe think about reworking this with ass. You angle, because, basically, obviously this pit, something that, like sir, steam columnist at the New York Times right about all the time and very nice for all of us who ve pitch pieces and either been ignored or had kind of current responses. I was like what, if it's a nice thoughtful editors, returned to someone who put something with a dumb idea: merger and it was a rework. The IRS yes even gave her an opportunity like try something else, and there you she's use it. That's exactly what bury was told she was brought into the times to do. Fine different perspectives are different. Take because post tromp they felt that that

missing and now that's gone yet another aspect of people were defending the attacks on very saying, oh well, why? Why is it that buried generated this kind of antagonism and people like Rostov that do not d? The obvious explanation is the distinction between harrassing passed to see the doubted. Ever describes himself as liberal Asbury has Andrew Celibate, who lived in New York magazine whose identity should should put him within the liberal cap on these people. Are they reject the ideology to which the identity should consign them and therefore they must be destroyed? While I think that's part of it, but I also bury, was an editor more than she was a writer. That's the important aspect of this and as an editor as Christine you note, she had

pieces pitch to her, and she responded to the negatively or positively and the- act that she was somebody who was in a position to make judgments at the New York Times and was not simply singing from exactly the same hymnal mark tourists somebody who needed to be destroyed. I mean that there is not just that ROS Ros death, it isn't an editor right, he works on and he was there before. He was there You know he was there before James Bennett, hired Baron and and brat, and he was there before tromp and an Ross whom I have immense respect for rights about things always in an extremely interesting and unorthodox way. But he doesn't

punch direct. That is not his. That's not who he is. That's not how he wants to say things that are tricky and on conventional and come at them at a different angle, and so is yours. He doesn't go right at it. Right, Barry and Brett. Both of them go right at it right. If I'm going to write about climate change, I'm going to describe the reasons to be skeptical. If I'm going to talk about Anti Semitism, I'm going to talk about Antisemita, of the left time. I'm going to talk about free speech, I'm gonna write about these guys in the intellectual dark web. Or a challenging orthodoxy and developing some very large sort of underground audience and remember that peace-

came out three years ago, which is about Jordan, Peterson, Bret, Weinstein and Joe Rogan Joe Rogan, since the time that she wrote that piece just to show what it. What a visionary piece of writing it was as a piece of cultural, social writing. Joe Rogan now has two hundred million people downloading his podcast. Months or their two underbelly downloads a month and Jordan Petersen became the best selling writer in America at some point and she was they are catching lightning in a bottle. That is,

what somebody at a newspaper those trying to describe reality in the United States should be doing, and she was enthusiastically and kindly viewed at the paper by her superiors until things started to go south for them, in which case they went and hid in a corner like little sissies Adrian Sulzberger, powerful man from a powerful family who could have fired fifteen people for trashing bury runs into us off, I'm cowards like a five year old, it's repugnant, it is just unmanly and worthy, and I hope that he chokes on it for the rest of his life. I hope they come at him if he says anything. I hope that they make his sleep difficult,

because the simple fact of the matter is that when you give in to this, it never stops it's like blackmail to pay the blackmail and the blackmail Costco's up and up, and he will never satisfy them. Cuz, he has given them what they want, and that is an unsatisfying hunger. Speaking repugnant, we shouldn't you, you touched upon Anti Semitism before we should mention at another, huge part of libraries, which was such a lightning rod, there's because she's in unapologetic supporter of Israel and has been added called out Anti Semitism and left, and this has caused no end of Greece on Twitter among her colleagues generally. This is this is a huge part of of the left's brief against her right now, let's say pull back for a SEC.

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Harry Garrals, the senior career of painting and sculpture, has resigned because in place circulated position petition that, as a swathes of a reason, says, accused him of racism. The man is. Media ouster dares removal is none. The Kosovo read the petition, can settings lending lengthy tenure? This institution we ask just along? Has toxic white supremacist police were running race inequity directed his position, draining the content at a museum? So here's what he said. He said that it would be, James holdings by saying don't worry, we'll definitely still continue to collect white artists said that this is actually. This is a crucial moment where one of those like crossover, effects of sort of the crazy that's been going on. The aims holdings by saying, don't worry, we'll definitely still continue to collect. White artists said that this is actually. This is

a crucial moment where one of those like crossover, effects of sort of the crazy that's been going on in college campuses, that leaps into their the rest of the world. To call that white, supremacist thinking and to not have just that that, right there is it's ridiculous to call him saying. You know we might still have a few white guys here. It's because he is a key issue the guy into go back to your age. Sulzberger point he's also like I. So anyone who thinks that kind of immediately resigning or pretending not to see what's going on is gonna be safe. If they're, a white guy is not safe and his that that particular animosity he towards any sort of diversity of art or literature or in the attacks on the western cannon, which have been going on for a very long time. That's at the root of that right. This has been going on a very long time. Among you know, the sort of radical scholarly fringe, but now it's trickling down

to the public into the spaces where people actually go to understand their culture and away. That's that's quite pernicious because of call that man, a white supremacist. How does he respond? He shall we have resolved. We should call it what it is. It is exclusionary. It is racially essential list is genetic determinism, it is supremacy definition that is racial supremacy. Just not white, supremacy and supremacy. You are exactly what you are fighting against, and it's very important because we keep noting this in this fight, that this is a fight, overpower and literally jobs right. So just as the other week, we talked about how this law Tina President of the Florida that young Democrats had to quit. For unclear reasons, because a

Can american guy said that she, but you know, was doing things he didn't like and then, of course he got her job. He got her position right. So when you go at the senior curator for painting at a museum, what happens that job opens up and guess who's going to get it? You think it's going to go out, then some you, no job posting to somebody outside no. The institution is going to hire somebody from within proper the person who arranged the petition in the first place in order to shut them up, and you know what since then, the director Museum has that person will have director, the museum in in in his or her crosshairs, because that's the point, and that's why age sulzberger? Who cannot be good? I guess family on business aid. You sulzberger can't be ousted by Nicole Hannah Jones, but she can make

life, a misery for the rest, and I hope she doesn't like that. I hope she guy. I don't think that's true- that he cannot be ousted by the mob. The mob can reach beyond the other, normal scope of their of the parameters in which, on a normal situation like that, would operate they they can act. They can actually asked him from his position. Just creating the kind of Europe that has resulted in very wisest defend a strange while rather removal from seldom opposition happened on a handful of occasions that I can think about the top of my head, where public pressure forces you out of your position that just because it's a family run, businesses may be safe. Well, you safe until his you know his eleven year old kid. You know gets to be eighteen, nineteen and then can be in Vienna Bay, or maybe that there could be a regency or something like that. I'm just saying hike,

oh, they own the star they and Carlo Slim on the stock. So I you know yeah of course. Of course I can be. Of course he can be run out of town on rail, and maybe somebody will dig up. You know something that he said in his eye school newspaper but that that doesn't matter either right I mean I'm sorry joy reads: recent you know coronation on Msnbc- and I know you guys- renounce embassies are not like. This is not a swipe at the whole network. I'm just saying I want you basically got the entire country involved in her weird conspiracy, theory about how her accounts have been hacked all try to to wish away ways. Hateful say is achieved tweeted, look, I'm not a huge fan, huge fan of digging up people's pass in throwing out, but that's the game s that mean we don't that that doesnt tend to be the game that we ve all played in that its now being brought up again and in the very context to because

the justification for her foot for crawling about her leaving. Work was activity that she under took as a college student and that's being brought up again, and I think that that everything shows that doesnt really as long as your arm in bright ideological side. It really doesn't. Our how racist or or anti Semitic are awful. You ve been in your past because Europe on the right side now, and that is not- that is not something that they grant to their victims, wrote about Europe, it contains. No I'm gonna say is that you know the thing. The real the real precedent for what's happened to the berry and James ballot. I suppose, in some ways, although I think James Bennet was himself showed a kind of a desperate hunger to veto. Save his job, Any cost that the very nobly I think refused to refuse to submit to us a pub

Can dignity of defending and then running away from the fact that he published an object I a United States senator arguing that we should allow ramp and criminality in the streets of America, which apparently was illegitimate in every possible way, but he he he did what he could to save his own and then it turned out just wasn't enough, but the real precedent is Kevin. Williamson Reich Heaven Williamson required by the Atlantic and the staff revolted, and somebody up something he said, and you know Kevin, there's a provocative and he was hired to be provocateur and then Jeff Goldberg, presumably at the direction of Loreen jobs said not allow you to you, you can't be here. Having had him, you know quit his job. Do it. You know, like basically, fires and before he starts for being Kevin, William. That's the point. It's not like. Oh my god, this Kevin Willie

since said something incendiary. That's how I can't possibly allow a person like that to work. For me, you know, that's why he was hired and bury and Brett were hired to provide a counterpoint and then too doubt that there is no counterpoint, but so that as a counterpart so then, and then Jeff Goldberg had the gall to retweet berries, resignation letter yesterday, you know, but I think I think we need somebody who hasn't slept? Well, never sleep. Well, I think I'm glad you're, I don't sleep very well either by the wayside. Just want to say that you know condemning other people too, sleep well, is simply to say that I wish them to be in Europe. Have of some of my own you out nightly.

The agonies. That's all not not that I'm wishing on them a disease that I do not possess, I think fee. The massive important take away from from the berry situation here is that she is the first person to say the aid in that type of position to publicly say no to the mob. She is, I don't look at this at all as her being I'm sort of tortured out of the job she she she could halves stay there and been less effective for the cause of broadening debate. Then she has been now I mean she, she has said no to the mob and it will showered down blessings on her in the future. She she she is if she is becoming a very important contributor in this fight. Right

in bringing her on and bring Williamson was of smart business decision. If you're in the business of discourse, I mean that's what you wanted to pursue their thwarted by these in a millennial, red guards in the mid level, positions of graphic arguments were happy, but the right has been doing that same thing to and has been doing it effectively, and this something I went through the law today is kind of an esoteric point, but I think it's really valuable is that on on the right and an enlightened publications, the disk Worse is alive and well, and the debates that are ongoing are Billy, foundational and elemental me if there really are basic notions of it Rachel Justice and whether they can be pursued in the private sphere, the pilots very high verses kings and at the essential notions of them. Patriotism. Creedle

tribalism, the enlightenment, which has been raging on the left, and this is a debate in which classical liberals, even those in the centre left, are frequent. Participants so all of a sudden, even in the age of trump, bizarrely enough, the right has been the venue in which these that the free flowing discussion and debate has been flourishing, I think that's a very interesting point and I it what's what's telling is the separation on the right in a way that is? Our true on the left between politics and intellectual, let's just say, because in political terms, Trump has been wildly successful at suppressing diversity. Within the political coalition on the right that might represent a threat to him, or you know him personally right, so he went after. Worker last night he just managed to define a straight Jeff sessions by opposing

Jeff sessions is effort to get himself reelected to the Senate position that he resigned from in order to be trumps attorney, general was insufficiently loyal to Trump, because he properly were accused himself in the Russia probe and therefore was deserving. Apparently in trumps view of of of of being destroyed and trumpeted. This Jeff lay Corker are, you know various people and scared the Jesus out of everybody on in our actually on the on the right and everybody who might want to hold a certain her position of influence and that was wildly successful. He has not been successful. I think, with the possible exception of that, this was his doing because it wasn't. It was a revolting, This decision, but you know, with the exception of the of the folding of the weekly standard, the right not only has been a ferment with

with ideas- and some of them, I think are very you know- are our highly problematic. You mentioned the serve the war on the enlightenment that Adrian renewal and Patrick denying them the eurozone and even the last our own sore memorial. You know our markets are playing around in blessing Mary unsafe. Roma Tax or another nothing's gods have been cancelled by anyone else either due notice like they did meet at the battle that raised between Soroban David French, we all kind of watch didn't you know, lots of people participated in and their sole where they began. That battle right in and sorrows writing a book about this and David, you know, is able to debate. The army a wise discussions with one another area serving exchanges on twitter do not manifest, and I want to disrupt where you personal right now, let's move to the other, So now I mean this: is you know the idea that the that that the right, as is some

patience, let's say in part, because it's not organised you now the view, whose of conservatives are are not organise. They have many different brain out of fundamental right there. There is theirs religious conservatism, there's libertarian conservatism theirs he'll conservatism is Zeno. There there's isolation, conservatism. There is at interventions, cuz they're, all this and it's not organised because it doesn't spring it's not designed in some sense or other for firm. You know the maintenance, hands and seizure of power it's about something else. So, let's move to the left in the age of trump. So at a moment when the left could legitimately have said what the hell happened, we were running things. We don't we sixty seven, since we had this Obama cratered, the party we nominated Hilary, the most school erotic choice we could have made. She lost to this very bizarre person made

We need to figure out where we should go forward from here and instead what did they do? They said the Russians stole the election and the whole point of the russian stealing the election fantasy was tooth was to make sure that there was no reckoning on the left and the liberal left for how it had systematically and brilliantly taken. Ass, the Senate and the presidency in massive numbers and then had just frittered it all away in it. You know in eight years and they have not done any kind of reckoning, because they convince themselves that they only lost at all because of a trick therefore, the kind of thinking that they should have been doing they haven't done

and will see what happens if Biden wins what kind of what kind of chaos they are going to be in, because every He is going to think that they are response that that this is some restoration or or ray installation of liberal left, liberal ideology in its proper place and it won't be, and they are going to have they're gonna- have their heads cut off by not only by their own Jacobin means, but by the public, which was like again if by wins, Nor are we just didn't want tromp anymore? We don't want a green new deal which is sort of what Biden announced yesterday we didn't want. You know we didn't want cops to disappear. We did what we we just didn't want tromp anymore pushed back and then just a little bit, because I do think there was any country at him Christine no

little after him ass a busy on a broken. We infer MSNBC cause. They did you a noble effort at bringing this many anti trump, but conservative forces as possible not to be too self referential bitter present company included. In order to it to understand the right in the age of Trump and in the post, Trump Ashur Natsir, and the Vienna there's something to be said about sort of the four, your cycles that that we ve been nation since twenty twelve roughly, in which I feel acres thirst, sort about a cognitive thing. That happens where you become possessed of this notion that you don't act

I understand your opponents. You can destroy them and once that doesn't happen, because you don't actually destroy your opponents forever, you just simply to feed them in their back another. In next year, then everybody sort of grits their teeth and says: okay now we actually have to communicate again compromise and work together, and then you understand each other again said there might be an element of the presidential election year. That is infecting the the political mood and in creating this absolutist maximum last attempt to to remove dissenting views from. Polite opinion venues like the New York Times that won't be there and twenty twenty. Why oh it'll be there, so I need not let not in the way that it might be. Re is not in the way that its manifesting today I can make all the saddle Although the government they'll be calmer, but everything is feeding the beast here. While I think that that there's a distinction to be made between

that's what of political cyclical stuff that you're talking about Noah, which I think did it was. It was kept best buy the resistance label that was given in the immediate aftermath of trunk. Getting relies re elected in the women's Marge all this kind of mass protests, which was very much focused on. How did we left I get a win that is going on, and that's a cyclical thing and we're going to. I think, you're right over there, that they don't calm down a little bit when, when is fine, is elected but the more dangerous theme- and I think it's one that has been now writing on the coattails of the anti Trump resistance is the broader cultural, progressive, less effort to dismantle institute since that they see is inherently racist and corrupt. They started in academia there. There certainly is You know, there's been some fascinating discussions about how education departments are actually educating teachers and what their educating them to being, which is, in many cases, activists on educators unless been going on for decades. That there's just

Oh cultural war, that's been on low simmer. If your conservative, you been watching it for decades, but that seems to have become involved, in a new way, and that, I think is, is that's what I think, John your pointing to one's binds elected. That's not going away. In fact, they might become even more important, because now they actually have the White House and possibly the Senate. I mean the black clothes were movement, began under Obama. Didn't begin under tromp, I mean first, and was underwear happened during the during the reign of Barack Obama, will reject what Obama's Justice Department investigate around that's right about that. That's right so so there is obviously Trump Trump and the counter trump, and everything like that. I turned up the boil in this country to a you know, we are now we are now like you'd have frogs in in boiling water everybody and

that will not end when, if trumpets reelected, quite the opposite, and it will cool down a little bit. If Biden has elected, I'm not sure, but there are too many people, but there are too many people who are able to out just gonna say there: twenty people who benefit from the boil for it to turn off and you're, not short, well being also because I'm why so Biden comes in as the democratic President who who doesn't embrace the thin radical cultural movement that only enrages and further activates the activists left against him. I mean, like I hated, you know he bring up the Chinese cultural revenue.

But like that. This is a resolution on the revolution. This is this is about getting to what the left means. What liberals mean, and there is no greater offence to them. Then having on the White House in terms of party only to see their dreams clashed and Poohpooh, and not lized. Let me let me let me finish on this law. Look, let's finish on this because it occurred to me. Looking and all the polling data and the fact that you know there is some reason to think that taxes and play in Georgia's and play in which case we really are looking This is serious and it doesn't. There isn't just a conversion to the mean and Trump wins Florida, George in taxes and doesn't have to worry about that lets say but may still lose the three states in the upper

West. But let's say that you know the day to really looks good riding bynes now going to spend a little money in Texas to see if they can soften the field, in which case really the elections over right I mean if, if they, if people start reliably thinking the Texas can go republican that I don't. I don't know, if Republican, we'll just the heart will sink out of them. The more confident that the Biden campaign is that it it has this in the bag, Here's the question: are they less or more likely to try to create a broad, any illogical consensus with the campaign by choosing a candidate of the left, or will Biden double down as Clinton dead as as bushed it in some way by picking somebody who reinforced is the message that he is trying to send that he

is not a warrior that he is the conciliator that he is gonna, try to calm everything down and make everything easy that not going to be Elizabeth, Warren or Stacy or whatever you now that he's going for something else. What are you guys think? I think vitamins temper mentally Soulier, but programmatic Lee is deferential to whatever integration the Democratic Party takes at any particular moment. Its current adoration is very progressive, very hostile, very woke, he will refer to that and, as you said the couple minutes ago, the Democratic Party will later over interpret the results of a race, particularly a landslide race, pursue as much as aggressively as they can in the two years that they control these levers of government, and so these seeds for a

backlash of the kind that we have seen in just about every two year cycle in this century. Now I dont think Biden has the kind of independence of mind and that in a weird way, Obama lifted by choosing Biden as is running made, I dont think Biden has that same courage right now. Something? I don't think ever has as a politician, but but particularly now, and If you look at your runs its campaign yeah. That's it's not gonna happen. You have enough its courage, more conviction, I don't. I don't think he hasn't he's any anti woke. I don't know He has mentioned an opinion on it. I think he'll just preferred to engage in that kind of introducing Warfare, fair with his own coalition, doesn't pay. These never demonstrated any any real desire to

ideological battles with his own coalition to the extent that is hostile towards the progressive ideal. Today he's just you just kind of sidesteps the fight right and that will be sufficient I for one am as president or I the answer. I'm talking about what decision he makes in August. Nine will not compete yeah yeah, I'm not really talking about the presidency here, cause what he does in the presidency as a very vague. Well, I I agree with with with knows taken terms of his VP pic I mean I I don't think he's going to. He's gonna go more work than one would think. If, for no other reason, I think he thinks it's case covering the other basis. They think that they think I'm conciliator, but then I've got I've got I've satisfied this other contingent with with might be people just like pensive of selections just went ashore

not that that sort of sceptical, in other words written but yeah right, as for years today that he picked Panzer announced pence. Wasn't it was like right around this time was, I think, so desolate visit. This early ass, well ass, a fairly early out of it, doesn't radiology matter more because identity, we're all pretty much agree that it's gonna be in african american woman right many, it's almost no chance that it will be so it just depends on what, But if you loved we're on the ideological spectrum that particular identity sets, so does he said the identity is sufficient or does it have to be of a really was summoned? His video committed to the cause? I don't know. I think that I think that that, despite the fact that we all have the same questions about binds cognitive air condition as everybody else that this has been a brilliantly run campaign. I think it Peter

will our wildly under rating the fact that he got into this race in April of twenty nineteen, and with the exception of two weeks of trouble around the first elections, never didn't lead and never hasn't led Trump and the no one here. I've made seventy five million mistakes and hasn't, and I think they know what they're doing and that this isn't just you know a kind of them. Momentum for the sake of momentum. That day, they they have sidestepped, potholes and shooting themselves in the foot and stuff, like that, every other one of those twenty two campaigns that was facing him couldn't avoid and the whole thing has been don't be com, be

b b, the sort of person that people can projected onto be a grand fatherly com presence, the notion that I just think that there is. There are grounds, particularly if they don't feel that he is in a lot of trouble. You know, or that he's got you gonna have trouble, you know consolidate his base because he's not eight or nine or ten points ahead that he wouldn't want to just keep reinforcing that one message that has proved to be so brilliantly successful and that Trump cannot den Tino Trump when before the like yesterday afternoon, in this sad. Seventy meant a press conference and an end.

Was so trying to hit Biden on this economic speech you made yesterday, which we should you know. Maybe tomorrow we can serve like go into the practical details, because there alone the more kind of crazy. But his way of saying it is binds plan means we're, not gonna have windows, there can be any windows, I think, but why would he met was that it can be impossible to open windows in a building, because, although it is in fact that is not how the green building initiative would work, but quite the opposite, but you know you know you're not to get enough air conditioning in the windows won't open, and you know that's what you want. Also, I think, a bizarre message to descend when were at a moment at which we think that air conditioning may be causing Calvin spread. Maybe we less air conditioning you know- maybe that's the stew. Germany and all that is, if you ever gave you ever go to Europe in the summer, it's like boiling hot no one ever Asthma air conditioning on at, like I once went to a conference in Switzerland, the middle of the Summer

and I was about. I was gonna pass out because not all Show me air conditioning. They have no ice suddenly like go to a thing, and they would give you a glass of water like four ounces and one ice cube, and it was like room aperture, said so you're dying anyway and wasn't total extemporaneous, let alone, while we're added, wasn't air conditioning deemed racist a couple years ago. Oh yeah was acting in, access, because you know then men like it called him like a colder. That's rare, ok! So anyway, shirts anti realist anyway, so trumpet you now wanted to go at Biden as a kind of rapid response to this big. By making a mixed. It's any, then let her glove on em, because because he would he wasn't he wasn't coherent, he didn't make any sense. He didn't offer an argument, so I don't know, I think, maybe there's that's why I brought this up. Is I understand the temptation to think that they're, the party is woke and he's going to go, walk

but I'm not that I know who the on unwell everybody's woke, he's woke so Since then, he has a pickup representation of wilderness. You'll still get plenty awoken. In what ways, and he was so that we will means Morrow for DOT Christina. No, I'm John passwords keep the candle.