Welcome to the Commentary magazine Daily, podcast, today's Monday February, twenty seconds ones when one I'm John by boards, the editor commentary with me. As always, second about it or a green while high hydra. Associate editor nor Rossman high. Now, John and Senior Christine rose high, Christine Hijack guys, we we do have our March store about to go up at commentary magazine that come I will let you know in short order when it will go up. We have we're. Gonna have basically to

who shirts foresail t shirt. Sweatshirts one says crushing veracity in the other says, keep the camel burning And that Europeans, through the nose for it, because we got highquality march and we all want- lose money on it. So if you want it, you're going to have to pay for it, but you're gonna want it. There are tracked there, really nice him we'll have a page up for you to order pretty soon. So I want to be a dead horse, but I'm gonna be the dead horse. It's the dead were soon beating for a year the news out of Israel, which is basically functioning as a gigantic, wouldn't call to focus group, because it's like a fool global. Would you call it like an experiment like a global

clinical, trial, clinical trial. Thank you on the efficacy of the corona virus, back singing vaccines. I guess they have one, maybe too much which the news is unbelievably great, such ass? They got facile, it's great for them in all of that, is that the evidence because they have they have not have inoculated of three million people by now the evidence is that not only is the vaccine nontoxic, which has said they have shown no deaths, and no secondary illnesses as a result of of getting the vaccine, but that it is astonishingly, effective it not only alleviate symptoms and prevents you from getting the virus to a level of close to a hundred percent like

behind ninety presents, but the evidence is that it interferes with transmission, which is, I think, that's the missing critical piece of the puzzle that has Let's hear people to say, even if you get them vaccine you're gonna have to conceive a socially distance and mascot that, because the one thing we don't really know, because it's a different kind of modality this vaccine because of its so I am RNA. was whether or not you could you give yourself could be immune to the disease, but that you could still in your membrane, somehow transmitted and shed virus if we have three million people and then says that that is not going to happen. That should be, either. Fine all. What would you call it? The final I was gonna call brick in the wall that serve like the

the break in the walls. The final thing that says, if we get people vaccinated, you can take off your mask, you can go hug. Anybody want a hog you're, not given them the corona virus. It's over. It is to move on if we can get and that the that you as an individual vaccinated person are not only free from fear of the disease. You should be consider yourself, free from the fear that you will transmit disease and, as I say why we know this- is this individual country with a very good healthcare reporting system? This is what it is boarding with a government by the way that is not merely a it is not. You know, it is not, corona virus skeptical

even that Yahoo has kept. That place, has long gone into lockdown four times and they have just, and he is he's a hardliner and they just lifted the last blocked down in part B, this data, so that's where we are in, and that is what we are understanding and at the saint of the corona virus. Mr Corona virus Doktor Corona virus The eighty year old Sage of Bethesda Anthony found she has now and warned us that we well, we may well be wearing masks into twenty twenty two and that we might have a semblance of normous normalcy by twenty twenty two and are now approaching a degree of normal sake is his construction, which even worse than that, because approaching implies were not there yet and a degree

is the most nearest of fractions right, any just really enjoyed. So we should be careful little bit about. This was also another study that came out. That's I'm looking at you. His report on this visor researchers, in conjunction with the researchers at the University of Texas, studied the Pfizer Vocs on the variants, the scary variance the UK and south african varieties and found that it did essentially protected them. The messenger protein protected against. those variants too. It's a little less for Madeira, but still very similar and in that report in U S. News is a big political parties, and all political cartoons are horrific. Of course, but this one it is even better. So we made this article, which sang in other everything's gonna, go away. Pretty much of you get this by some axing you're good. But the cartoon features to people saying we can relax the back things- are working and behind them is a giant soon. Army labelled fourth wave. So There's, no there's, no relaxation, even oracles discussing how you can improve, have some psychological,

release here, there's no desire to to have that release. They are their actively lobbying against it in the political, messaging, even as the studies on the reports I'm getting better and better and better see, guidance hasn't caught up with these studies. Yet that's what I thought you said over the weekend, he said that we don't really know yet. So we haven't been maximally cautious, but caution. It makes him less interested in listening while the public messaging is, is deliberately at this point deliberately alighting what we know: the science Governance shows us about limiting transmission and protecting individuals from the virus. Verses. eliminating the virus. The viruses with us, it's with us, just like Sars, is still with us there. These viruses will continue to remain in circulation. Every flew season for and

We know who knows when, but I think they d messaging uncovered in particular, for the past year has been. We have to eradicate the virus number even binds like I'm gonna shut down the virus. You can't do that. That's not up, vibrates is work, but the, but again they d at the beginning of this, as we often said, The idea was to scare people straight like make him say: Lockdown Mass, on being cautious. We are passed that point now and this constant messaging of negative you'll never returned to normal is now having a counter productive effect on exactly the populations that we should be eagerly trying to get a vaccinated, back to work and which, as you know, anyone who's been locked down. Anyone who's not been able to send their kids school. This is this is a very crucial moment and I think we're going to have an interesting a few months as we watch how the bind ministration particular keeps up with this message

more. Doesn't because, as we're seeing with Cuomo the autopsy report on how this communication is working is going to come. Eventually, it might not come as soon as some of us would like, but if he it, but if this messages, having a counterproductive effect on Vaccination Bergen to see it in a few months and that's bad. We need him. I think there needs to be a lot more push from those of us who have been you know thoughtful sick, of the evidence now to really push forward on the vaccination message, we're seeing it now. We ve Republic reports about members into binding administration, saying on background or off the record, that their terrified of the fact that so many people are scared of this thing. And many of them are democratic constituents. But at this time. Their messaging is the vaccine, maybe not might not help you. We introduce one Why am I not dumping very monopolizing of this conversation uber one more thing: that has been causing the rounds this morning, this report, NBC New York, local report, and the headline is what safe, after Covin nineteen

station dont shed masks yet, and it goes on to describe what we ve been describing. However, if it is really the cautious we'll have a data, we don't really know with axes are affected, even though we do not back scenes are effective, but they still one You can get the vaccine rights or the final two graphs same basically that the benefits of this vaccine are entirely psychological that you will feel quote less anxiety? Will you go run errands? For example, earth is see your friends and family. You still have to do ass master. Of course you can really get too close to them, but you can have full less anxiety about having contacts of these people. Why? Why would you less anxiety if it's not at all effective, so ably, let's talk, a little about despair, because one hearing from people now year into the into the pandemic regime, which is, I think, where we are This week is a kind of what is the term in income

we ve therapy learned hopelessness, it's like you. I ve been bitten, so my events are bitten by so many dogs are longer. You see a dog and you run away right or something like that. That term congruent. With the the facts of the moment, which are that there's a vaccine they're going to get it and then you're not going to be able to you're not going to get sick anymore and life is going to start trying to normal and people. Just don't seem to be. Events and they and they d them projector anxiety on two other things like how come I can't get a vaccine appointment fast enough in the air and you don't can. We do

Baxter can we were not to be able to do why nothing's gonna be open and look at listen to fetch in all of that. How significant psychologically do you think this despair is? As you know, just like anecdotal earlier with friends or anything like that, I am, I think it. I think it's an enormous problem think. It's it's being contribute to buy a kind. I mean when we talk about the mixed messages and envy and that they, the counselled business and actually what they're, really council. When we talk about, you know these articles and the Eu

continue to wear, masks and and after being vaccinate and all the rest of their sort of saying? Look we want you to be superstitious. This is the way to approach this crisis is, is with superstition than that of that will cover all the basis and the and the problem is not just the despair in itself which that produces, also contributes to the car, paranoid and conspiracy conspiracy, theorizing that we see everywhere right, because the question is why why why do they want to keep us? in masks indoor inside our homes, without going at will. If the vaccine is supposed to work, why can't we go out after the vaccine It feeds this kind of other. If you do online? And this is our even know what to call this kind of fringy conspiracy theories circle?

active out there, but there are other all these is it's not lessons, not right. It's it's something! It's a bit of unholy alliance between the two and There is all this time what they want to do this, because they want to shifting you. This is the larger crazy stuff. They want to shift in governance between debate; they don't they don't want the government to work for you. They want you to become dependent on the government and as long as they can keep you dependent. The government. Then they can control you about and that no, I don't think that's why I mean. I think I think the. Why is is said why they're getting these terrible mixed messages and wider continue two council despair and superstition in the face of this excellent scientific data about about our being able to get out of this. I think their joy, because there has been a cowardice and the port of leadership to say anything declarative about where were headed, and they are so up there

such a fear of saying by next day. We will be here and if you do, that, she will be fine it just in case they will be called out on anything and exposed as as not having been perfect, I think that's right, but there is also an element of this that I am very sympathetic to, because I share the concern, and that is a deep concern over the prospect of social stratification. Go back to Israel, for example, their their public health messaging is basically the opposite of ours is we're gonna reopen people get, the vaccine are getting a vaccine passports and if you don't you're going to be left out and that's a direct quote quote, anyone who does not get this vaccine will be left behind at Israel's health minister said that over the weekend and TEL Aviv, for example, you have you can get your shot at a bar. You get a job at a bar, and this is like yours you're.

go, get another shot it the messaging there's two for one. There is obviously an incentive there, but the second which is brilliant, is that it communicates. Public that, on the other side of vaccination, is normal life, and that's that does that What about the site, but Israel's also offering these passports are also giving you email from the actual physical proof that your party this new situation, and I find that to be very concerning in a lot of theoretical ways, I'm not sure how to reconcile that concern with the necessity that we have to produce a vaccine in population and promote vaccination. I am create, incentives on the other side of vaccination is that this is something I struggle with, but Democrats are much more concerned about the prospects of economic, racial, social stratification than either Yet most conservatives are in its ability to be concerned about, but I think that those concerns might be affecting how they approach the sultan, their will and then

I've seen it and that isn't it did there's another incentive here and if we're going to be deeply cynical, which I think at this point, we must be to be responsible. There's the political incentive that that the binding penetration in them rats in Congress now have which, which we ve talked about often on for the past few weeks. But to get this big huge relief package past, you can't be giving people a lot of optimistic, positive news, particularly about the economy, reopening and and getting back to work. Getting back to school, because the alarmist message has to be priorities. right now, so that there is this sense of urgency right the sense of urgency. Married to this idea of fear and anxiety about the virus. If you remove them, you're an anxiety and say: look it's great life's gonna get back to normal. You lose some of that urgency, so we'll see if they get this past, what happens with the messaging looked at as a vital point: the bought the Biden administers

It wants to be able to say that help is on the way we delivered the help to up to that end. They created this fictitious and really come gross narrative that they were left with no a plan and they were left with no vaccine and they were left with nothing. It's fast thinkers. We spent four years talking about the lies, the trumpet ministration, that's fine, the trumpet ministration lights, with teeth, Trump didn't know how to tell the truth and that's true. This was a cynical developed. Why, in order to claim victory over the viruses, that was the thing that bind and said that he was going to do. That was his number one promise as pressure, he would be straight with us. He would be so word. He would do this and then he would manage it and get us out of it. So, having been handed a vaccine worth vaccines.

And a distribution system and a and a programme to make sure that there were freezers that good old, both the Montana and Pfizer vaccines and this and that and state by stay. All of that, all of that was in place and a million people are they were getting vaccinated and they said. Oh, my god, we came, and you know that the pantries were empty and there was noticed russian plan. That's a lie right I mean it's naked bold, faint, bald faced lie and people promulgated it, because they were because, while liberals resort relieved have trouble about the day, they want people to believe that there is one thing that they did. Ok, they did badly right. So that's that's number.

under the number two is they want to be able to say help is on the way we delivered its first help us on the way, because we're fixing it so that you can get the vaccine and if we haven't come in that wouldn't be the case and the second Here comes the money. We are now bringing you the money, we're bringing you the relief we are. doing this for you if it takes till March for that bill to be signed. At the White House when Biden will use the phrase. Help is on the way you for some variant of it. We will have had two months of them destroying the national spirit in order to create the conditions for their version of the mission accomplished banner, and I think, that's really really really grows, and I can say that you, I got three kids, it is. There

it is wearing on them like a leaf blower, whereas on your last nerve a year of this, my kids are in school and stuff like they are not they're not in like they're good condition. That's in a Christine's kids remember they're barely into their into it, but it is a year and it could have been but it could have been ten months in this sense emotionally, where they said here comes up. Iris help is on the way were really excited, were reopening schools and we're doing this and we're doing then and and- and you will. We back, you know it by June. Everything will be back to normal, even if it's not true, even if it's not effing, true, Why is it better not to think that somebody-

better, to think that you're gonna be a mask for another year, then to think that you're not gonna, be in a mask in six months, accurate than they will give it a dime decided, while in other research, is pretty clear when we was that we were being. prudent in deferential, and now we have all the evidence and we're gonna we're gonna recommend. You know basically returned to status quo ante, with some exceptions and some precautions in place, because you know if you're right, they have. We have the the Can I make a packing now we have the backstop. Their that'll help us in the back. Scenes are super effective and so here at it, but the job. The problem is there for this period, world just gonna memory wholly but see it. I think I think I hope that's true just for everyone's sake, but I think there is a danger in which they are not an end date. These battle with the teachers

hence the canary in the coal mine for this broader problem you have, they have created a habit of mind and a pattern of behaviour among the people that is gonna, make it much harder for them to bind that message in your seeing this, even with like kids to the parents, are like their fearful of their kids returning to or because they actually absorb the message exit. The message was heard, but it's the wrong message said a pivot meeting, Lee. I wonder how many people are going to then say well, but wait a minute. You just telling us that we shouldn't be that it's not safe. That has to be how to proceed. So if we have to write it get all the virus, everyone has to be back soon. My kids are vexed India. You can see where the habits of mine that I've been formed over the past year for a lot of miracle. Understandable as they are, will actually work against that messaging? If they try, it wrote would so you have a bicycle kid and circumstance: witches people are getting the wrong message, but their game. The wrong message, because

as it is the determined view of the american lead and that the leading part, national politicians and media to speak in dark terms about something that took a turn for the poor, positive unambiguously in December, notwithstanding the the surge of of cases and the tragic search, a death, you, I think, it's it's much easier to get a large group of people to be scared for their lives than it is to get them to be optimistic right. So if, if they needed, if they needed the same population, to do both at different times, they're gonna happen there's going to be a large hold over of the scared for their lives? Focuses that aren't that aren't gone back right, but I mean you know

seriously. How many people in America, if you, if you it's like one of those things like the J walking on J Land or something you didn't, pull three people off the street and you say you know compared to a month ago or six weeks ago. How many are are the same number of people in the hospital with corona virus, as was the case a month ago. how many of them know that that caseload has dropped by half? How many is that, what's leading the news is the fact that we hit the spike in January and that we are on this vertiginous, drop and collapse in the number of cases in the number of, and then number das, and all that is that women

oh no. I really doubt that they know that ordinary people, because the message is not being told because there is this bizarre- not only is kind of emotional focus on on the bad news, but this determined decision that is being run by people, and we can never say this enough coding people like us who are perfectly capable of doing their jobs, not at their offices and living their lives now in their own homes. They can do that. Imagine that they couldn't. I shall be interesting, here is a good point, because actually we have reached a really grim milestone this week, which is half a million american debts from covert and tonight President Biden is, is scheduled to speak about that and have a sort of Mamma.

Oh I'll, be listening very carefully to the choice of his message this evening, because On the one hand, absolutely we should we should grieved those lives lost On the other hand, it is, it is a unique opportunity he has to talk about where we are going forward and if he doesn't take that opportunity than that the cynical political push that's happening will be made transparent. an aim. I think this is a very. This is yours. This has been your long term point about the the elusive aspect of the virus that is so maddening, which is that we ve had the Serbs, who had a hundred and fifty thousand deaths in the last two months, or something like that Our group does not seem to be following any kind of observable: are understandable pattern

so much so that every time you get one of those sir social media outbreak hysteria is over with a whether or not x. Or why thing? is a super spreader event. Then it's not a super spreader of that it's not happening from them. It's not that that's not what I'm doing it like these Superbowl Party, yeah. The Super bowl party, that most everything the Biden Party, he Hauser went to an end and wilmington at the other aspects of it that that really makes you think that you know as well as you say, serve like colloquially the virus gonna, do what it's gonna do. Is that because there's no connects there's no observable pattern that connects our behaviour to its trajectory, but there is a pattern when you look at what happens global

with the virus? It seems to go up and down in tandem everywhere, virtually everywhere regardless of what each location has been doing, to mitigate the spread or to open up the pattern stays the same, Now that is not to say- and I think this is an important qualification after all, this is not to say that reckless behaviour in relation so the virus would not have made these numbers far worse. That's that's an import because you can look at this and say is an NGO fatal? Listen. And say: there's nothing. You can do so. What the hell you know just do, whatever you can do. Let live your life and whatever, if you get it, you get it you'll die or you ll die, that's wrong because having viruses to transmit, if you can do anything to to, the dangerous before yourself for your family's removed the people in your immediate vicinity.

you wouldn't. You should do that right. It's an but. Well, we know I'm just another fact easier: yeah, I'm in town, India has now lapped every other state in terms of you know transmission, and they had these pray severe locked out now again it could have been too. Maybe it would have been twice. If they haven't, I wonder how you run earlier is absent from people who do you think that the virus behaves unpredictable ways and primarily you're republican voting affiliation is one of the primary vectors of transmission. The president's of covert Tsar Andy's lab it has spent the last year on Twitter. posturing from a position of authority to turn the saying exactly how the virus- because it behaves in this way in this way in this way in these republicans- are doing next Wednesday in their being terrible about it, that's why it's gonna be bad there and not bad here yeah. He went so far as to it

he's got around the centres of misleading the public, uncovered numbers crisis and called the accusations. Anthropomorphic white rightwing name use very confident in his position Finally, on site, I need to sign an important factoid and then move into discussing our first stop. Sponsors we cannot say what areas live at sandwich made him made the intrinsic value of all. Is that not only is it in making this attack on run. The sands is pretty clear and trying to absolve. And while he was asked directly about what you just said, John about at the California numbers are roughly have rough parity with Florida and one sailors untold locked on any other one hasn't been for months and months and months, and it was asked about this direct as you know this so much about this virus that we think we understand that we think we can predict that just a little bit beyond the exponent explanation. This virus continues to surprise us, which is well

Do contrition and obvious to everybody has been observing this for a year with this politically unpalatable to say there are different from those in the oval office, ok So here's what I need to say to you. Ok, the increase in per capita mortality from twenty nineteen to twenty twenty. So this is the end of twenty twenty. This is the this. Is this number of access? That's right. you know how many des do you have any year that seem outside the about where you have that that exceed the previous years or the average, or something like that? So here I'm gonna say: three states and the national Average New York total increase in per capita mortality went up thirty percent California. Eighteen. point six percent, the national average. Sixteen point: nine percent Florida fourteen.

Point eight percent, so not only is Florida below California and Bologna York ended half of New York Tunnel, increasing per capita mortality, It is below the national average right where I get this little factually. I got it from my friend, David Bonds and the head of the bonds and group. That's why I wanted to talk to you about David. David runs a bike management firm with two and a half ago, more than to have truly a billion dollars trillion. That would be good for him. two and a half billion dollars under management. Larry cod low, the former head of the council, you have a virus, has now joined the firm to help him, which is exciting news for him David has been something that I have relied on: very heavily because of his knowledge and handling of compound ex macro data about the United States, something he learned from his own hissed

an experience of doing financial analysis and and then he has applied a lot of these lessons. to understanding the data that come out of covered and he will Inform you of all of this in his to internet products, the DC today dot com, a daily examination of market trends, market forces. In the end, lay politics and policy and his weekly dividend CAFE: dot com which takes broader macro, look at the condition of the United States and what is going on both but equally and in the market. So if you need to understand how your financial situation will change, adapt, thrive or were or go through rough seas. These two newsletters, the DC to data com,

dividend cafe that come are vital and they will also provide you. here and there with completely useful and very helpful graphs and charts and numbers understanding. The circumstances that we now find ourselves with cover so take a look at the bonds and group for your finance told management and financial understanding means as the antidote to the intellectual spaghetti that dominates the financial advice and management industry. That's the bonds and group- and we thank them for sponsoring the commentary Maxie podcast. So we have what it. Here's to be the first confirmation scalp in the and that's the point, that we thought was gonna, be the confirmation scalp when all the first Biden appointments were announced. That is

Your attendance at the head of the centre for american Progress and the anomaly to be the director of the Office of Management and budget. Joe Mansion, though centre from West Virginia Democrats at over said, he didn't like her and Assuming that all fifty republican centres. Vote against her mansion makes fifty one and she goes down. Does it have any larger meaning cause? I mean, if you know every Obama I believe, went through two or three was a calmer secretary camera. There were set Every administration, gluing ones that women landslides and up with problematic nominees for confirmation. So if Biden has one, that's a low, that's a low number right there. I think I didn't try

the losers first. Labour secretary nominee Minos like its is the thing that happens of late. When you have the controls. margins in any pleasure trump last Obama lost geographic. If you remember ass, he was he had this weird little public. There was a young ever greater republican senator from New Hampshire yeah. I mean a large, a lot of it was was varied, theatrical and posturing, but he did to try to maintain some continuity with this defence secretary and yes Gregg unlikely making some offers to republican nominees, but the Democrats controlled the process and they weren't, you swelled with him. Right anyway. So so we actually thought when near at hand and was announced that she was put up in order lose. It would be helpful to her if she lost should go back to cap and raise money off having

then in up monstrously treated, and that this was almost car comic and cynical, and then they got control the senator, then it's like gash, maybe she'll get through and she's not going to get through. This reminds me of my one of my favorite jokes or are bets on my favorites calmly, I'd couple when Oscar who was again, are you now is in dad and Felix lend them a lot of money and he then pays Felix back and Felix is where you get the money so well. I I hopped my saxophone and feel itself. I didn't know you play the saxophone ask who says I don't. I just keep it for Hockin, so it's like near at hand

the facts of one that you hawk? You know not not anyone who they actually thought was given to keep. It seems she was. She was a porch who, as we said at the time when she was a poor choice to begin with it binds message. Was you know the coup by our let's all get beyond the horrible trump here she was the version of Trump on the left, like really horrible, toxic tweets. She docks whenever own employees who had come forward with a sexual harassment allegation in front Other employs me. She's raised a lot of questionable money from a lot of questionable entities and me she wasn't an obvious picked for this job as a manager, even of her own empire, she's proven to be ill suited to that open and to scale up to two open. These seem to be a big mistake, so I am happy to see or go down in flames, and maybe you know should not returned to twitter, but I'm you're, probably right essential used as judges.

raise even more money, but at least you won't be running Allenby. She was the definition of uncontrollable. She was never gonna get the Republican Senate, and now she can't get through democratic controls that, by definition she is unconfirmed able to this position. It shouldn't be that difficult to admit that at that stage, but I know you see the usual suspects things like guys just because she's south asian she yeah. I never understood such deep, deep, deep reset racial resentment against South Asians running If you can do about it. Others claimed it was sexiness. I mean there were there: they trotted out all the usual suspects. Every has not yet arrived at the apple. This is great for everyone, nobody thinks all be Republicans, get the glamour scalp them.

Let's get to say our we demonstrated our moderation were so moderate are going to approve the thing and in a little bit in the Gatt cover for that cat gets to raise a ton of money. The usual suspects get racial bias in other, as isms confirmed, everybody wins Celtics blue. Do we think, that the near attendant nomination was a conspiracy that it was. understood that she was probably gonna lose and shining from one, I'm on record, saying that she was offered up as a sacrificial land. Right, but the Englishman Galeano had she was the sacrificial and I'm thinking that maybe she were maybe she I didn't leave others tweet, so I use This one? I would say this one thing, which is that the irony here is, that of all cabinet positions The one the president, arguably it would probably shouldn't or knock I can from positions the wonted. Arguably

really shouldn't be a confirmed. Our position is Allenby the ombudsman There is basically a staff of the executive branch working in the executive office of the president. There is a weird kind of separation of powers issue that Allenby comes under congressional scrutiny in the way. It would be almost as though the president could have the right to fire the head of the congressional Budget Office. It's kind of odd I've been an m. You know if it's almost like whether since we're, if the present really wants this person on bees probably had get to have the personally want to know and beat is that's enough Basically the system to him, but whatever so so she's the one who goes down she's the one who goes down there's an interesting as Have you ever Sarah? Who was the nominee for health in humans? MRS goes up before the Senate. Today,

that, arguably, should be the biggest fight in the Senate, Christine wanna we buy out why that is one of the most controversial It's, u staked out publicly is wanting to provide federal health coverage to undocumented immigrants on this is, I think, not gonna fly well with. Even some moderates is because, both because of the cost and the objects right now in the middle of a pandemic, so hopefully he'll begins in tough questions about that, and also you know he will. His agency will be in charge of a large. It is in charge of a large part of the pandemic response and vaccination response from the federal government. So there's just a lot of Jessica questions that he's gonna have to answer and I'll be curious to see. If the equity overlay that we ve seen the bite administration try to place over every single agency in every nominee will all they'll be play out here,

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poverty and various other aspects of american life, about hard hard hardships that people with limited means and limited social capital go through and he said flatly in this peace- that basically There is no dignity in work that there is a horrible misunderstanding that welfare reform, as it was laid out in the nineties, signed the opera sign into law by Bill Clinton that welfare reform positive, that there was a extraordinarily positive aspect to compelling people to work rather than rather live welfare em and get benefits from the government that it was empowering. It was soul, enhancing that it meant that you're you're taking personal responsive

for yourself and the fate of you and your family was something that would make you a better person, basically make you a better citizen. Make you a better parent, make you a better and and put you on the path to a better life, because all of these things would- create the conditions under which you became a more reliable, employ more valuable employee. Somebody who understood your value in the market and could demonstrate it to an employer and become somebody in the and thus increasing your financial value, your financial worth and add your earning power and Increasingly, it seems a liberal and left US economist. Finding this line, particularly in relation to women and, though, and and and mothers of young child, I find this line and persuasive and theirs

you're forcing mothers to choose between work and their children were not you're, not providing them with enough help for health care, so their children are being neglected. They are making this horrible Hobson's choice where they have to work for very limited amounts of money. Their children are going and unprotected, or you know not not getting. The kind of raising that they deserve, and so you have this kind of odd a conference of leftist economic views, which are that you know, and and and Very conservative opinions about mothers and children and how it will be more valuable, all things considered for a mother to be the primary caregiver for her children than anybody else, and that

this was something that was a mathematic among liberals for many years, because the idea was, you didn't want to act like childcare. Keep people who sought childcare were worse, pay, parents and that in fact, maybe it's better socializing to be daycare socializing to me, somebody, you know you know what social situation prior entire, very, very young age, and that your more isolated, if your home alone, with your parents, all this, but the flat declaration that work There is no dignity and work. I think takes this to a very interesting new level that is either self defeating or suggests that kind of discontinuity between

classic conservative ideas about personal responsibility and the end and the work ethic that under goods it and ah and the I would say, liberal two socialist view that works solely to provide you with the FAO financial wherewithal to do other things that are better at Life Christine where Am I summarizing this writer? What am I? What am I missing justice? There are a lot of contradictions that that, actually, as recline peace, throw The high relief, if you'd been following this debate, were new, pointed to a really important and which I think we want to spend just a second lining, and that's that I think, is still the case that if you are a member of the ill elite, educated class and your female, there is still this argument that is better be in the workplace and the different

is it then, if you're, a progressive or liberal, you want to argue that people who aren't at Europe status and delete, plays and and don't have careers they just have wage jobs should not have to go to work and they should be paid for their domestic labour in a way that you yourself, outsource to others. Often those same women who you're now claiming should be paid for their homework and I do think it's interesting- that the character in his call on the person he chose to centre alot of arguing Rome was a woman named lavender. thirty. Nine years old, she has six children, she's a single mother there is no mention of the fathers in this where's. The dad there's no mention child support, which actually fathers are legally obligated to pay. If they have children

with a woman, and its also noted that a thirty nine she's already a grandmother which means one of those six children has hurt herself or himself already had a child at the age of say. Nineteen, twenty, so that whole discussion, which actually is a lot of what started discussions about welfare reform, whether the government paying people to be home. Actually had this reared effective, undermining family stability, because in you actually had more like You could have having money coming through the door if you didn't have a father and a household that was, there was a beginning point for talk of welfare reform, then it became about work and dignity. Now I think what s reclined is arguing is that if you can not educated or are at a point in a society where you can get work that isn't just wage labour than its inherently undignified. You should be paid to stay home and he is married to someone who wrote a whole book about the universal basic income. It should be noted how Referring to Lee. You should be able to have a whole bunch of government support for your choices to be in the

forest, whether your male or female, and actually men should be forced to stay home more because that's you, no more equal, there's a whole lot of contradictory arguments being made here, even apart from the economic voices, but this argument of paying people for their domestic labour that is a tenant of socialism. This idea that you should absolute. The government should be paying people to do There are two wash dishes and do their laundry, because that is labour that contributes to the economy, the idea of paying them, there's always a radical feminist argument for this. That we're seeing revive now makes it gonna write opposed about this, because the New York Times over the weekend also interviewed a radical feminist. scholar who art has been arguing distance, the nineteen sixty six are really interesting about myself, a lot of a contradictory at no time did you say at no time in history in any place on the planet did paying people not to work in still dignity. I mean,

so exactly that should be a bumper sticker pheromones, that's a very deep point: go on get! No! So if, if, if war, if there's no dignity in work, what their dignity en route saving money not work, certainly not meet those dignity and child rearing. I think one part of the argument that I find persuasive this idea that, even though the economy doesnt reward. the page at raising your children is. Is this dignified, important labor? It is labour, it's not all fund, as a lot of it is work, but is it worth that the market should be commodities and rewarding that's a different questions? The government be paid you to do it. I just want to absorb prejudge right, were purchased perquisite. Just remember data point you didn't Sweden. There is that there is a huge chunk of the population that was on disability because they had just their disability.

laws were such a. U can anyone can sort of get on it and what happened? Was they get this baby? It became clear to them. They had this huge problem that they couldn't that this population who had been on disability for so long, was on catastrophic depressed and, and they were capable of working, but but just receiving disability claims that big, So there was this whole national effort to try to figure out how to get them back into you humans in the real world? That is what happens when you pay people Network of China are just not adjust to briefly pivot of White, Christina sang Is that a genuinely dont think anybody who is a real real Debo tee the notion of a universal basic and income really wants to answer

My family life in fact made some very conspiratorial, but I think it is their desire to reduce the The conditions in society that promote a nuclear family because, nothing- is so valuable to disaggregate the fact nothing so effective at that as a universal basic income, it's been tried and Finland has been tried in Ontario. and then I was tried in the United States in New Jersey, with a negative income tax, and only nineteen sixties and effects have been pretty plainly observed that the inducements to maintain nuclear family, the inducement, sir, the Father to go to work in a mother to housework that needed it Roll gender roles that were traditionally associated with nuclear family broke a part in that If you really scratch a radical socialist, whose beholden to economic values, that's not something, they don't

valuable. The dissolution of the nuclear family, the reduction of those kind of ties, and yet this is Russell Kirk in its it is the most compelling unit of economic and social organisation to promote values. if article to the kind of collectivism that a socialist desires so breaking apart, the nuclear family is an absurd, if not when you say out loud, but it is an objective. remit remember over the summer active way to do that over the summer. This, when, when Rapporteur is certainly conservative, reporters were pushing on the black lives matters in a sort of statements of principles, one of the things they initially had in their statement of principles. Was undermining, not undermining the. You said that you were like a more disruptive silicon, disrupting the new,

clear family was in there and they actually removed that because they were getting a lot of either a sort of mainstream. Liberal supporters were saying this looks kind about that doesn't mean they don't believe it like. The radical marxist organizations have long had that as they take a couple of minutes today to survey the opinion landscape in the left, the nation mother Jones. You know that your usual suspects- you won't take long before you dig deep enough to find in a lynx, did kinda Communists, MUS, look with They very also rest notions about how we should disrupt the nuclear family in order to facilitate the kind of educational regime that we want to create I mean selfish- it was selfish to Bolshevist anchored in the end. What we have here, socially Is the single most on the sending an end up parochial

you of human life that you could possibly imagine, which is that. unless you are a thought worker, what you do conveys no value to you unless you aren't somebody who, does something that comes out of reading books or comes out of manipulating data or comes out whatever that rather than the idea that people who have to do things with their had that doing things with your hands, how everyone I haven't I categorize it from a cleaning restaurant too many artists, working on an assembly wine to change it. tire

driving a vehicle whatever it is that it that this is inherently less emotionally, spiritually or personally valuable than the work that is done by people who get good grades and go through school graduate and go to college a college and do what they do. This is a huge issue. This is the corruption of the merits of this is what people talk about when they talk about the corruption of the meritocracy that doesnt distances inability to understand that all kinds of people live all kinds of different lives with all kinds of different structures. and as long as they are as long as what they do conveys to them. The sense that what they do is a value it is a value value, is inherent In the way you deal with what you do, and that is for anyone everywhere

notion that I can't imagine doing what you do. Therefore, what you do must not be of any spiritual personal, emotional, intellectual or legacy benefit to you suggests the nature of the corruption of the american elite, particularly you know from our columnist in the New York Times before we ve. I ask you to respond to this in a very serious and profound act of sliding of some people. I do needs two about our final advertiser today equip but you gotta get me second, because we we had disappeared from my screen If you just give me a second here, we go here, we go. Yes, ok, look. Brush why brush flaws but dig out you gum

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Unionized job and you might actually made dignity, one of his particularly during the private He was talking about the dignity of work all the time we had to hear about his lunch pale and his dad it like. I did. This was a constant theme that granted cynically. This was a great political ploy from reaching out to particular white working class voters, but again need the car. Predictions in play here on. The left are interesting because they have long trying to see themselves as they kind of kinder gentler opposition to the conservative arguments, about personal responsibility and about the true dignity of work, which is, as it was talking when it's taken away or its made much more comfortable, not work can lead. What kind of soulless moment I think there are ways to Brigida meet. My friend, my Crawford years ago wrote a wonderful book shop plus the sole craft which actually explore, and they d irony that you are talking about Germany's the technocratic folks thought workers think that what they do is particularly dignified and worthwhile, but looked down on those who work with their hands, he's Dunbar

He was mechanic and a philosopher, and he brings a really interesting perspective on this. That, I think sides could draw something from. But when we're talking about what s recline is discussing, there there's a clear political purpose here which is say there is you know that the kind of work that you would do, an Amazon warehouse, for example, isn't meaningful to you. That's a very at the conservative response. To that can only be doesn't individual choice. The government and technocratic Lee doesn't get to tell you what is what what is dignified or necessary for you to do, and the government shouldn't be the one who's? holding the bag. If someone decides to have six children out of wedlock and then can't make a living like? We will support the kids. You want to make sure that their fed and clothed in house but the idea that there is some social problem here- that's absent of individual and personal responsibility, isn't the case and in knock and addressed that and I think, we're getting further away from those sorts of arguments even, right than we used to be

and here we also been through a year in which who, whom have we celebrated frontline workers from my workers, their delivery people and nurses granted. Nurses are slightly different category, but you know healthcare workers crush The worsening of the grocery store workers. Amazon, warehouse employees who are fulfilling the orders that we are making, since we don't go into stores to buy things anymore, so they Given this, we talk about this in part, so that they will understand that we value what they do and there where we believe that is something that has dignity, and this year of notion that the Union of nurse the neck. You know pseudo intellectuals walk around a talking about what it's like for people and the how they need to live on the dole, because that will be better for them.

Is, is is morally unspeakable. I mean, as you know, a babe says like well, when in history, has one been granted dignity by by by not taking care of themselves. You know they're good the great russian literature the nineteenth century. If I'm gone trouser blown off and the and the place of Anton check off our about the depression, that hits the upper classes when they are cursed with enough income to have nothing to do all, and how they go crazy with indolence. And I'm not saying that people are indolent, particularly now. If they have six children at home, no one is in the wind. Under those circumstances, but they certainly are living Nessus enough, but certainly if they- we are living in a condition in which they were waiting every two weeks for you now for a handout. And were totally bereft of agency.

Otherwise, that is the fear that, as that is the opposite of did there is a profound political realism. Under way. That Joe Biden does not reflect above has caught up with matters that migration working class voters into the republican coalition and the suburban it intellectual of better educated, more affluent voters who, traditionally, though, the Republican into the democratic column and Joe Biden, is behind that tradition that shift, and it's like you know you. This is evident in the way they talk about. The minimum wage, for example. Where is eliminating poverty is great, but killing one point four million jobs. Is it go that big deal because the jobs that great to begin with, but there's a right one way to do this to its the Milton Friedman Prescription, which Republicans I wouldn't be shocked. If they didn't grace more fully as a working class party, which would be to provide a base level minimum income unit,

firstly in exchange for the elimination of a whole lot of welfare programmes, most of them, in fact, the added value that Democrats would be too favourable towards such a prospect will. That is that. That is the question that that that debate has not begun yet, and that is it when a year debate. That is not a five year debate over to your debate. That is a twenty year debate about how best That is the debate of western civilization, as since the enlightenment, which is how best to deal with the populations that have the least capacity to thrive and what what to do to help them figure out how to dr- and that is an ongoing conversation, but certainly our answer to it we can see has not been the greatest. Lancers just like there. Mate

maybe unanswerable, but the debate is never ending and with that we ve helped. We ve kept you for too long. If you reach this point, thanks very much for thank you very much for tolerating r r r loquacious ness, and we will be back see you tomorrow with similar similar loquacious. This I fear for no EVA Christine. I'm John ports keep the camera here that I was let's say: keep the cat. more burning because I'm looking had a knowing Christine and on our honoured, The zoom chat here so keep the candle burning.