When a mother of three walks out her front door and into the New York morning, she leaves a trail of heartbreak, suspicion, and unanswered questions in her wake. It takes almost 15 years for investigators to finally untangle the truth about her disappearance –and the unimaginable reason behind it all.
For resources on child sexual abuse, including what to look for and how to file a report, visit www.d2l.org.
Source materials for this episode cannot be listed here due to character limitations. For a full list of sources, please visit https://crimejunkiepodcast.com/murdered-peggy-reome/
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This is an unofficial transcript meant for reference. Accuracy is not guaranteed.
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hi crime, junkies, I'm your host, Ashley flowers and I'm bread, and today's
So it is one that is really important to us here at audio check, because April is child abuse.
Prevention month here in the United States. Over the past few months, we ve been working with
organization called darkness to light, which is doing really difficult, but really important work to address childhood sexual
use. I know this is a hard thing to think about it even harder to talk about, but that is why
We need to be talking about it and, if you have children of your own or plan to some day or even if they're, just children in your life that you want to learn,
and what a helper tat then please stay tuned until the end of his episode, because we also included some really helpful information.
From our partners at darkness to lie about what you should look for in terms
spotting childhood sexual abuse. What to do if you suspect it's happening and how to protect the kids, you love
but first I want to tell you a story.
About a mother of three who walked out her front door into the New York morning and never came home, leaving a mess of heart
suspicion and unanswered questions in her weight. It took office
fifteen years for investigators to finally untangle the horrifying truth about what happened and why this is the story of Peggy real.
It's a cold
in February, in nineteen, ninety in Syracuse, New York and fourteen.
World Jerry Lynn, real, can't stop thinking about her mom Peggy Peggy
who is thirty. One years old was a no show at Jerry Linz, fourteen birthday party, a few days ago, and while Jerry Linen her brothers, Scott and Bill live with their GAD, whose name is Jerry full time. These still see their mom at least once every couple of weeks and genuine was definitely expecting some thing.
On her birthday, selective, none in person visit, I mean at least
a telephone call right, it's her birthday, but it's been over a month since Jerry.
And her brothers saw their mom. It was actually Scots birth,
on January seventeenth when they last saw her and at the time Peggy Sue.
Totally find she brought cake. She bought ice cream sheep and got him a watch as a gift. So how
was abandoned, say, saw her or talk on the phone then. So at this point it's like been about six weeks since
seen her, but you, I think it's important point
like. I know six weeks sounds ago, a really long time. I'll give you didn't see your kids for six weeks. We would like think you're dead right because you see them every single day. But
Peggy didn't have her kids that she didn't have custody of them. She did not see them every day and a lot of media coverage from the time suggests, or even in some cases our says that Peggy
was known to disappear from time to time. John Gordon
in the Syracuse Post standard that it wasn't entirely out of character for Peggy to take off for a couple of days, even honestly, like a couple of weeks at a time like apparently
was one time that Peggy dropped her kids off at our moms for dinner and then just like,
come back over three weeks, so it was normal, not see her for a while, but even knowing all of that six weeks is a really long stretch. Peggy was never gone. This law
and even when she was gone for a couple of weeks. She always came home me. She loved her kid. She would never just Lee Cry, and this is a birthday till eggs.
Thankfully again tonight, even get a phone call is, is very of setting for them and you can see why no Jerry
Dad agrees that this is totally off, and so they call the Syracuse City police to report Peggy missing. This is now,
February twenty six, and when investigators
digging into the case this portrait of Peggy
starts to emerge, Peggy kid
say that their mom worked a lot like all
the time based on Want Jerry? One says now: I'm not aim. Kids are great
assessing how much their parents actually were. Yeah I mean
My son was always confused about what we did like all day every day until we went into lock down last year, and we were just always home together, but I mean my husband, I still kept working from home
and I want to be a kid. I was like really tough to conceptualize what working even looked like until I actually was old enough to be in.
The workforce well and even more than that, it's not on a switch like what it looks like, but just like how much time they actually spend like. I can see a young kid being like my dad works all the time but, like you know, dad goes to work eight to five and it's a very normal schedule, for what we adults would say is normal and I think what can,
this kid's even more, is like again, if it the schedules any different, maybe than there like school schedule where you know
they get home and then appear is working a second or third, and there like going off to work. It might seem like their working even more, and I think that was the situation in Peggy case, because she actually did work the night ship as a taxi driver and or a waitress, sometimes and Jeff stage reported for this year,
Harold Journal that because of her work hours, you know
peggy rarely was able to wake up before noon, and that was her time to sleep. So what I'm thinking
that she might have either been like working or sleeping during the hours that her kids would normally be around or normally see their parents, which might
you seem like she worked even more anyway. Ever
When police talk to says, Peggy has a bit of a tough edge like she's, not the easiest
person to get along with and she's tough she's, never going to be one to back down from a fight. But all that being said, like everyone actually really likes her and the people who know her love her. I
even though she might be rough around the edges for sure she doesn't have any enemies that her friends and family no
and no one can think of anyone who would want to do her any harm
would they also learn from S. Friends and family. Is that the last time anyone saw her was on Valentine's day when two of her friends say Peggy stopped by a local restaurant, where they worked too
turn some money to one of them that you like borrowed, and then she grabbed a cup of coffee totalling
we'll interaction and before
were that the last physical prove that they have a peggy is from January twenty. Third, when she renewed her driver's license. Ok, but she has a history of kind of disappearing here and there is no kind of logical
think that she may have just left on our own. Yes, but again, I think it comes back to how long she's been gone. It is never lasted six weeks, so Peggy whole family, even including her Ex husband and kids. They like listen, that this is out of character even for her, because, unlike other in
instances in the past like if she did leave on her own. She would take her things.
With her, and this is one of the biggest things when she laughed apparently
she left without any of her things like we're. Talking: no extra clothes, no car, no idee, no money, nothing! Ok
also kind of
swimming that she had her wits about her when she laughed like true
it could have been a mental health incident doing all she has any history of mental illness. So there's no.
History of mental illness, that I could find nothing publicly.
Way, though it was not
teen. Ninety at the time, which is you don't complete-
different in terms of how people
many in how they talk about it, which is the fact that back than they really didn't
mental health issues right, but the one thing I
see is that police do ask Peggy's relatives what she was like the last
time that they saw her like do. They noticed any changes in her demeanour or mood, or anything like that and everyone says,
you seem fine, she didn't seem depressed. She wasn't upset about anything like when we saw her. She was totally normal and the one thing that they keep stressing
to police and meet me no more than all of this is abnormal is that Peggy would never walk out on her family that she cared about her kids. According to an episode of coal case files called where's Peggy. She was too,
protective of them too, and not only that she wasn't much.
The traveller either: according to her sister, Karen Peggy had never even left New York state like of her in her life, like
her life. So where is she going to go without he's hopping on a plane and going somewhere with no car? No money? No clothes, no nothing! So at this point, no one
investigators have spoken, too, is sure exactly where Peggy disappeared to, but there
one more person police. When I talk to an that's Peggy Sue boyfriend, George get us pay,
had been living with George at the time of her disappearance and actually do
Berlin had been living with them to up until, like MID January, when she moved in with her garden brothers and
we know that George has at least one child you. He has its eight year old son and its possible that the sun lived with them to, or at least like he had some kind of visitation, but I wasn't able to confirm that the police don't need to
so far to find George. In fact, he has been right under their knows all along, because he has been locked up in county jail since February twelve. What for what
George is facing some pretty serious charges actually, second degree re secondary
sexual abuse and endangering the welfare of the child. He was also
probation at the time something. This is like a bad look for him across the board,
No one investigators confront him, George Health Police, that he has no idea where Peggy is, but chiefly,
like to know because he said
is that the last time he spoke to or saw her was the day before he.
have been the morning of February eleven. He says that
Peggy sent him out to pick up cigarettes alike,
in the morning and when he got back, she was just gone.
Now. According to George, there was just one set of footprints in the snow leading out to the road, and that was it as far as he could
how the only thing she took with her was a couple of bags of clothes. No one there
scan like. Would there be any reason that pay
you would want to leave George tells police that thing
between and Peggy had been a little stormy lately. So he says that he thought
had he was actually having an affair with another man and he had confronted her about it and they had just been fighting a lot. So you know she
What's out, she doesn't come back. He thinks that it's just because their fighting like she's gone. Maybe this use other man in like. Maybe that's why you didn't call police right away and obviously like police were Lou.
The US about Georgia story, I mean it's time to take the word of a man whose literally
sitting behind bars on some pretty serious charges, but when police go talk
the other ten in the apartment. Building that Peggy and George had been living in. One of them actually
corroborate at least one part of Georgia's story and says that they heard a pretty loud argument coming from Peggy in Georgia Department on the night of February Tent, but wait.
He said the last time you saw her was the eleven yes
This one is saying the ten he said. The eleven thing I don't know is, you know, are we talking like the very early morning hours of the ten them at the idea of what the source are saying? Is that the part.
Corroborated was that they had some kind of argument around the tenth or eleven, but that's like that
least interesting thing? Police learn from the people who live in that building bow and I'm not talking.
You know when I see their apartment building. This isn't some like big molten unit building. This is a small complex, like literally for apartments in total, so
for when they are seas and hears pretty much everything and one of the neighbour
Is this guy named Butch
does he have a story to tell tale is absurd has been possible with caliber I
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he's Bronco crime, Turkey, for twenty percent of your first order. According to the cold cruelties files episode I mentioned, Butch says that he was at home one night kind of minding his own business when he starts
hearing. All these noise is coming from the buildings stairwell, so he goes out to see what's going on and he finds George
loving this like big.
Rectangular flat top wrong can actually called a steamer trunk and he's
loveliness down the stairs. I say lugging not holding like some from thump as he's Goin, dragging it down me with a suitcase anytime going rated with airport. So butchers like you know him
can I help you with that? Because you clearly struggling over there and George
pushes the mafias and no, no I'm fine, and entitling rush away
which even asks him like. Ok, what's in the trunk that so heavy and George tells him that it's full of tools and saw blade stuff like that, which isn't that outrageous.
Since George, is a contractor by trade so
Georgia's you're trying to get him to go away. He said: listen, I'm in a hurry. Man ends of you just like loads, the steamer trunk into the back of his truck and drives off when police ask George,
this whole encounter. He says, yes, everything Bush said is true and
The reason that he was logging, this trunk full of tools down the stairs is because he was selling those tools to someone like he had someone lined up to buy them already and he was taking them to this local bar to drop them off with this other person or whatever
when police him for more details like ok. What's the bar who's, the person like this, we super easy to check out George
I don't know like super drunk that night, I can't remember who I sold them to, or even what bar at what
he gives them no.
Details that they can be verified. The story with vague.
So that feel super shady
do you know when is actually explicitly happened? I believe
tonight I was unable to find an exact date listed anywhere, but
based on everything I pieced together. That Bush was alleging that it was either February ten or allow
it's the same time frame we're talking about. You know this argument, the last whom he saw her and the reason I think that you couldn't have been after that because remember, George gets locked up in
county jail for some time,
starting on the twelfth and so he's locked up from February, twelve all the way through March. Sixteen so do the police certain
the trunk at all. Will they can't right because, like they couldn't verify any part of his story, so
they don't know where it is, they don't know what,
tools are that are supposed to have been in there? They ve got nothing to go on, but here's the thing
Butch wasn't the only person that they talk to from the apartment, building, another
the Georgian Peggy Neighbours tells police George hold several times after his arrest from the county jail to ask if Peggy had been backed the apartment or reach
to anyone who lived there but surprise, surprise she hadn't, and if she
had come back. She would have been in for a shock but
the landlord for that building, actually evicted, Peggy and George for not paying rent? What, when will according to
winning by might make Andrew and Rick Moriarty in the Syracuse Posts standard. It was just after George was arrested in February
the landlord tells detectives that, although Peggy stuff was still in the apartment when he evicted them, but
neither George nor Peggy were anywhere it be found, so what he did, which
it makes you like clench my face- is he actually got rid of? Everything
they got all their possessions out of the apartment himself, so there's nothing left in the apartment for policed. Even look at
what did he do with all the stuff believes that he too,
now to the curb initially, and
I have no idea where ended up from there, but I mean a landfill
Maybe someone came by and picked up some stuff, I mean they got again. The guy was,
doing his job he's getting survive the apartments who could be clean, fronted new tenants. He had. No,
idea that Peggy was a missing person just that George's in jail, and you know she's nowhere to be found and no one's going to pay rent. But you know now thinking bad. He says there is one thing that you dragged out to the curb that day. That might be of interest to detectives. He said
dragged out a mattress and the
tress had a blood stain on it. Oh I know and get this
according to the landlord, this bloodstain was like six to eight inches or rounds. We're not talking like oh a nose, bleed drop or something like that
Ok, but you come across as matters of the blood stain on it like why not
Oh please, right away, so this guy. What
says at the time, is that he assumed it was period blood or let me give you two:
in ninety ninety. He said it was a lady's time of the month, but
yeah but again get. I dont, think its anything sinister. I think that he has made a bow
some Shan and he just assumed it was an old stain through them
address to the curb, along with the rest, the stuff and everything's gone.
So if there was any physical evidence to point to a crime having been committed, its long gone now
The landlord says that he hasn't seen or heard from either George WAR Peggy, since he evicted them so right now
these are stuck in this place that we so often hear about when it comes to missing persons. Investigation, there's no evidence of foul play
but also no evidence to rule it out
I mean not even the mattress
don't worry wrong. It's shady but, like
blood stain on matters that we don't even have in our possession. Any more can't prove that something happened
It's time, any police. If something bad happened, they only really have one good suspect in the case and that George
but he was in prison when Peggy disappeared. So if there is more of a rock solid alibi than prison, I dont know what that is. So they kind of this. We have no choice but to just like move him off. The suspect, west and that's kind of we're Peggy case hits a dead end
her kids, her siblings, her family, they just kind of like wait and hope months passed a whole year,
passes all of it with no sign of Peggy? No sightings, no calls to children. No activity on her bank account nothing and
for a while there there was no sign of George either you see he's been real
east on March, sixteenth and was scheduled to stand trial on those child abuse charges in October of ninety, but he just didn't show up
so do we know anything more about those charges honestly
No one knew much at the time because of the age of the victim, the only report
we're from around this era was in one article from January of nineteen ninety one that said he was alleged to have rate a thirteen year old girl multiple times, but here's the thing
but his whole case I mean honestly, our research only turned up three
articles total during the first year, Peggy was missing when the first one was even public,
until April of nineteen? Ninety the next in January, ninety one and the last one isn't
about Peggy Disappearances, about George who police
were finally able to track down. In February,
of ninety one so that he could stand trial on his previous charges, but even though her case
and moving forward. Peggy disappearances never far from anyone's mind at one point
year after she went missing. Police actually get a tip that Peggy had been murdered, and this TED said that her by
he was in the trunk of a junk car on the Onondaga nation reservation. But they searched extensively either.
With cadaver dogs and found nothing, and the thing is.
Even if they were to have found some thing I mean all of this.
Later trying to identify remains and work plucky? It'd be skeletal remains at this point, so it's gonna be
a harder than just like. Can you come Idee this body when EMU,
king at maybe DNA or dental records, like that kind of thing, vote
in twenty twenty one? We be looking at DNA for sure, but again back
in the early nineties, like real
all they would have worked dental records. But this is what I think would make this case so difficult and like the challenge that they were going into apparently detectives. Don't even have dental records for Peggy, so even
They had found something. There wasn't much to compare only photo that they have of her is one that she had taken when she renewed her driver's license shortly before she went missing, which I know those
It used a lot for, like MRS Cresson, Fire
stuff like that, especially now, but actually, if I ever go missing, please not that one.
Their drivers, licence, Herefordshire yeah, does not like me at all Toto
but unfortunately for Peggy, that's pretty much all day.
Have they have a drivers,
since photo of her along with a few x rays and some fingerprints, Emily Coke S report,
for the Syracuse Post Standard that the detective leading the case
the ninety nine. These would kind of put out these
sure. Why tell a tight messages, sometimes which is basically like Europe, nineties version.
Like an email kind of giving her
Description asking other law enforcement agencies,
do you have any unidentified remains matching this description, anything that sounds similar. You note she would share
what ever records he had with them and fingerprints just in case, but isn't
six years before there
any other movement in Peggy case. That's when-
in November nineteen, ninety seven a hunter and Manly, which is about twenty minutes from Syracuse, discovers
skeletal remains of a woman. Now the forensic
are able to determine that the woman was either white or indigenous and likely died between five and fifteen years prior,
this is seeming like it could be good right, maybe one these teletype work. Maybe they find
found Peggy, but there's just one problem. Please, observers that you buy
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According to Jeff stages, reporting for the post standard, the remains are estimated to be from a woman who was five feet: five inches Tom Peggy sue
Ported high is more like five, seven, five eight.
And remember, they don't have access to Peggy Dental Records to do a quick comparison, so to figure
this woman that they found is Peggy, it takes too
eighteen, ninety nine, before their able to use familial dna to definitively rule out this person, s being Peggy
in the spring of two thousand to a new detective, takes over Peggy File and he goes through everything all the notes, all the reports, every
being his predecessors found out during their previous investigations, and we now it's been twelve years since Peggy disappeared and by this time everyone
I presume that she's deceased, I think everyone have you no longer
the idea that she just ran off or potential
There were some kind of like in a mental break. Everyone thinks a foul play was involved in,
in the twelve years of investigating. There has only ever really been one suspect and that's her boyfriend George Weak, but was
in jail, yes, so that's the thing
He was in jail from February, twelve until March sixteenth, right, yeah,
but there was also a citing of her on Valentine's day right supposedly bud.
All these years later, police are thinking.
It's more likely that the tent was the last time
she was alive that date that they had the fight in the apartment. The fight that people heard
and I mean George- was never a super trustworthy guy. To begin with, like me, but we can only take
the count. So far, and the people who did think that these
her on the fourteenth. I mean the thing is
people's memories even from well intended people can be really faulty. So at that
I kind of had to write him off. There was a much they can do, but, like again, all these years later, when you look at everything, combined police are like it's more likely than not that
someone, some of these witnesses have their dates wrong, rather than anything else. So when this new detective looks at the first,
What he sees right at the centre of it is George. He sees this convicted fell in with a history of domestic violence,
and no plausible explanation for where his living girlfriend might have gone quite like one of those like when you hear
hoofbeats! Don't look for a zebra israeli yard.
For cats. This time, instead of reaching out to George, the officer reaches out to his ex wife. This woman named Alisha according to the whole case files
the sole Alisha says that her marriage to George had been a violent one. She says that he had a bad time
and he hit her more than once so the
best: Eater Ass Alisha. If George ever mention anything about a woman named Peggy Rio- and she says- oh yes, he told her
She took off to Arizona with another cab driver which ok, like that's. The first were hearing of this twelve years later, so they talked for a bit.
Before he wrapped up the conversation. The officer ass Alicia. Is there anything that
ever made. You sort of scratch your head about George,
and Alicia says I've always wondered about that storage shared! I'm! Sorry! What storage? That's the officers question exactly Alisha
health be officer that George had been renting this storage unit in Cicero for the whole time that they were together? It wasn't a big deal, I'm like lots,
will have extra stuff in storage and he
there's that its where he kept all his tools. By any time she tried to ask him any more about it. He would get super an
and he refused to miss a payment.
That unit, even when money was tight, which was often during the
but he was in prison, especially, but he was still
adamant that that bill get paid in full on time. Never,
this one never be late. I think this is such a good
example of why there's nothing is insignificant.
Ask about or to question Ardle again do in cases like this order. Even like.
Yeah tell please you're being questioned. I think I've heard it said before that a good investigator doesn't asked. Did you
see anything suspicious, they ask what,
you see, because
open, ended question, because I know what might be relevant right at me,
This is a perfect example of that, because if he hadn't asked her any
else on your mind, would they now?
Have known about this storage shed because, wouldn't you
it when police look into it. They find out that Georgia has been renting
storage shed since nineteen. Ninety, it feel
like things, are finally starting to come together. Finally, after twelve years, but
they try and get a warrant to search the storage unit. The prosecutor says that he doesn't have enough probable cause.
I'm sorry how in the world does he not have enough probable cards girl, no idea? I
not a judge, but thankfully the investigators aren't giving up just yet you see it turns out
George had gone back to prison in two thousand one for a fire arms charge and was released in the summer of two thousand to which means
He was now on probation and one of the terms of his probation
here's to file dislike very specific report every month with his probation officer, and I know this
boring, but I promise it's relevant Brit, I'm going to send you look a little snippet of this form. If you can read need the top right column in section d, sure it says: do you rent or have access to a storage space chuck? Yes or no, a post office box? Yes or no, a safe deposit box, yes or no
and then it says the name and address of location.
Box number or space number and has room for you
to list all of that there right. So this is the form he's been filling out, and do you want to guess how George has been answering the question about the storage unit? Can I go out on a limb and say he's been saying: no yep nose right across the board,
so now they have a convicted fell in with a secret storage shed that
been lying about unofficial forms a and a missing acts, so that all together is all the probable caused that they need to get
their search warrant now my timing is a little fuzzy here, because my only source with information on the tip from Alisha about distorted shed, is just that one episode of cold case files, but that whole process takes
eyes longer than I would have expected, because it's not until April first, two thousand for that data,
is finally pack up their bull cutters and had out to see what George has been hiding in Cicero for the last fourteen years. The first thing- detector,
see when they open the door to the storage shed is the bottom of a green metal. Steamer style try
when they open the lead. They see two decomposed feats
taking out at the end of a dirty blanket it takes police a couple of days.
The request for help from the public, specifically from any dentist
who may have had Peggy Dental records on file?
eventually their able to confirm what everybody already knows. What everybody already assumes that the body in the steamer trunk is peggy. Real
she didn't storm off after a heated argument with nothing but a couple of changes of clothes. She didn't move to Arizona with another man. She died
the hands of this man. George get ass.
All those years ago, what
once they have her police waste, no time arresting George and bringing him into custody and when they tell him what they found the storage unit, the trunk, the body. He says it's totally, not what it looks.
Looks like it's a body in a trunk in a secret storage shed. What else could it be
right well. He says that the whole thing was this terrible accident
that he never meant to kill Peggy, but that he did it in self Defense, Georgia, that they were
fighting presumably the night, a February ten when all of their neighbors heard the fighting- and he says
things just got out of hand. He says Peggy was threat
bring him and his eight year old son, which you know
We don't know a lot about him if he was actually living there. He was visiting if he was there at all, but
does that she was threatening them with a knife and George either pushed her or punch
her like the story is little fuzzy bare and when he did, she fell hitting her head on this, like wooden buff,
as she fell to the ground, Georgia, babbling
he didn't know what to do so. He just grab the trunk stopped her body.
Inside and took it to the storage unit.
So the good old. I don't know what happened she just died. My panic so did something that makes me totally look like a murderer thing right I mean, and as usual, nobody is buying it and when the
autopsy results. Come back. They tell a very different
worry about what happened to Peggy Peggy S. Cause of death was blunt force trauma to the head, but now
the kind that you'd expect to see if someone just fell and hit their head on a piece of furniture, the blow to Peggy S head was so severe it nearly
baroque, her skull in all my high growth goals, interest rate in half,
is something that I don't think I've uttered on the show before Jim
o Hara rights in a story for the post standard, that the damage to Peggy School is quote consistent with the force of a blow from
Baseball, bat or a multiple story form and not consistent with a
all from a standing position. End quote
Okay, so I don't think either of us believe George's story about the knife and not at all. No, I have to believe that neither did the police, but I guess then what is the motive?
like it it an escalation of
relationship gone even worse.
Or is there some other reason there
some other reason and police do think. They know why George killed Peggy Pages
sharing that information and they don't share it, actually someone else shares it for them. This episode is made possible by
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Remember back in nineteen. Ninety, how George was arrested right around the time Peggy disappeared and later convicted on those child sex abuse charges go well. What the public learns
on the day that George is formally charged with Peggy murder. Fourteen years later, is that that child was Peggy, Sue
teenage daughter, Jerry Lynn. She was the one who live with them until like me January, it was her birthday that Peggy Nest Jerry
Identity was protected back in nineteen, ninety, of course, but in two thousand for
when Georgia's, finally locked up that's when Jerry Lent goes public to tell her story. She was only thirty
years old at the time, and she says that George was sexually abusing her repeatedly during
time that she was living with him in her mind. She tells me
media and the public that in January nineteen ninety George got caught cold
by another adult, and that's when genuine finally felt like she could get out of this situation like she finally had this other grown up to back her up and say that they saw what happened when,
left to go, live with her dad that year in MID January that
is why she lacks. You want to be in that house anymore, and airlines says that she and her dad reported the abuse to police right away and
they say, listen we're toto
on it, but they said, don't let Peggy
George know that you called us is not complete,
clear and the research materials like
This information makes his way to George and Peggy, because im assuming they didn't want them to know, because they don't want to give them like a heads up
Jerry Lynn thinks that they end up finding out that they went to police and
when Peggy found out. Let me
she went into full mode because I because I know,
say, an alleys ideal. I never
can get into the minds of how people operate so she's people we talk about on the show
But I have no idea how I could,
not just when a rip, someone limb from limb, finding out something like that. I kill him, I don't
and I have to imagine that,
I'm sure Peggy had some similar feelings when she found out what was happening and to find out there,
not only. Has it been happening in your home where your child supposed to be saved, but that it had been happening at the hands of some.
You thought you loved and trusted who you invited hinted at home and I think for
so many people and eat. I I dont know what have you seen either time waiting for so many people? They think, like a cat, happened
or this doesn't happen very often, but this happens more often than you think. According to our partners darkness to light there aren't often any
outward are obvious signs. A child is being abused, but there,
or some other things that you can look for like what like young
kids might start to get nightmares or what the bed, or might even start to display more disturbing behaviour like bullying, others or being cruelty to animals, as some kind of like how let another big thing to look for is despite
sexual behaviour and using language that is an age appropriate and as they get older,
victims can show signs of distress or trauma or
in ways that might look a lot like anxiety or depression. So, like you know they may
to withdraw or lose interest in friends or sports or activities like that kind of thing, and some even respond by acting super perfect and compliance, and some of the complete opposite, like they'll, become really difficult or rebellious, even aggressive. So I'm going
as I officially have a teenager, now he's thirteen so Sawyer and I'm kind of wonderingly what makes any of those behaviors different from like the
its teenage experience. That's the thing when
we're talking of darkness delay. I'm like okay, so, like kids, that I
could be showing signs of being victimized kids that virtually inward could be showing signs of that. Also, like I'm free started both of those things- and I was his or completely compliant and perfect- could organise this sums and that's the thing like these behaviors
aren't necessarily different from normal behaviors. But it's more like keeping an eye,
I to notice a change right like what did they go from an too, and this is why it is so important for caregivers to keep the lines of conversation open between them
kids to make sure that they
No, that no matter what that they will always be support in that they will always be believed, and I know I said that there are typically physical science, but there are a few that you can watch for like
redness, rashes, swelling in genital areas, also
sudden urinary track infection? So if you notice any of these things, checking with your child's doktor is agreed
place to start- and I have to say, since I spent a lot of my adult life in realms, addressing abuse of minors kind of across the board as a foster parents- and I am so thankful that I know that they are
are so many child advocacy resources out there, but
That's why I am saying this because not everybody dies digging literally just be a simple as googling child safety advocacy and your city and find resources near you
weaving connected to kids peace, which is a semi regional organisation as well.
The national youth Advocate program that
so many resources for people wishing to learn more and help minor
who's in unsafe situations. But let me I guess my question is out
of knowing what to do. If you find your,
in a situation that you believe needs intervention. What can people do right now like? How do they know if they should report anything
something well, I think that's the thing is: there's no
you must do this or there's no point
you know a hundred percent. If you know a hundred percent like I don't I'll think people are questioning that. I think what people question is like one should. I am what I would say, and this is
for me and not darkness alike. Is this
Second, you suspect something is when you should do something if you think there's any reason. Just don't hesitate. Yes, because
We have these got feelings
like six senses for a reason and the thing
you need to know is that you don't need proof of sexual
used to make a report to police
Then we will have to explain what making you suspicious so keep that in mind, but you don't need to like go to them. Seeing eye caught some one in the act. You can go to them with what is making you feel uncomfortable and if you ve, seen an adult violating a personal boundary with a child or suspect abuse because of those physical signs that I mentioned you can reported by calling
local child protection agency or nine one one and darkness to life
again. The organization who provide this information for us is a great resource. Their website is d
To EL dot Org just the letter d number,
to let her l, dot, org and I wanna hit on again from the kids perspective,
one of the things I mentioned in the story was that jury Lynn didn't feel like she could say anything about what happened to her until someone else caught them until you have that back up of an adult, because she didn't
any one would believe her, and this is again so import
it especially for those of you who listen to our interview with Elizabeth Smart, your member, her comments on this issue
a child discloses abuse to you. The most important thing that you can do is
in them start by the
leaving them. So they are not afraid to tell you even when
their feeling uncomfortable because I mean these grooming things. Most of this doesn't happen by a stranger abducting someone in the middle of the night to abuse them. It does
then, but most often is people that they know, and so there comfortable enough to tell you when their uncomfortable, then let's get used to preventing this stuff
There are tons of great resources out there about what exactly you can do, or what exactly you should say, and in particular how to ask questions when a child discloses abuse to you, but you can also simply thing
them for telling you an offer, support and help and as difficult as it is, especially when it's you,
were child or someone you love, it is important to stay, calm,
because the one thing you don't want to do is to trigger any kind of shut down reaction.
Child or any kind of like knee jerk feeling for
them that they might be getting someone else in trouble or that you're upset with them or that they did anything wrong. I mean remember so often their abuser is a person that they know and care about and might not want to hurt and you're there as their support. They are reaching out as a trusted person and the best way.
position and their life is to be that support person and you
I just said something just now that the idea
prevention, and I think that that is so important to parents, especially how do I prevent this from happening in the first?
one thousand percent- and we always talk about the lesson
we can learn or actions we can take after these episodes- and I dont know about-
you're, not among beard and anti iron.
All my mode right now like what we do right now to prevent this from happening to one any other children, but especially the kids in our lives. So there's a lot you can do
It really starts at the very beginning by having open and honest conversations with kids about our bodies about sex
one really straightforward intangible thing- that darkness to light recommends, is to always use the proper names for private parts when talking about children, which I would have never thought of, but they said you know, none of this, like
you'd see words that we sometimes when I used to feel less awkward. Kids need that boat.
Larry and having it can actually help, keep them safer.
And when you're having these conversations making sure that kid know that no one can touch them without their permission, including adults that is so important and it
So it is important to minimize the opportunities for abuse to happen so darkness to light
What is that more than eighty percent of sexual abuse happens in isolated one on one situation, so if you reduce or even eliminate those situations period, you will dramatically reduce the risk blend for me, understand the process of grooming and what to look for is he absolutely and for
anyone who doesn't know grooming refers to the process perpetrators used to gradually but very system.
Thirdly, I once a calculated to break down a child's boundary and our families boundaries before any thing of physical.
Sexual contact. Re happens right
What that looks like on the surface is pretty much just like a close relationship between a child and adult, and often with pay.
Are caregivers too, like people who do this, are you said Kaliko
They can be incredibly manipulative, so, like they're, not gonna like be a jerk to you, the mom or the dad or the guardian of this child they're gonna be fine.
With you to get really close and make you a comfortable as possible in the city
just when were alone with your child and, frankly, there really good at it
there are actually some red flags that you can look for. Someone pangs,
your attention to a child or giving them special preference. Sympathetic, listen
so. Basically, adults you go out of their way to be fully engaged in there for them when a man,
old is excited or upset, and they get don't get me wrong.
There are kind, loving adults, but this is above and beyond its stuff. It makes you piccolo about and say, like listen
they're gonna, be fine. I feel that doesn't feel right, yes, predators. Will
offered to help the family, especially with things that give them one on one access to
child who like driving, then to and from
practices or school or baby sitting, while the parents are out and be
really aware of adult hugging and touching a child in a way that seems too familiar knowing what
doing is and how it looks and understanding that parents are often targets too, is important. You guys one of things that the darkness to live
team suggested that I really love in terms of a defence against grooming is having
and we ve rules that every one knows, and not just the people in your family, but all the adults in your child's life have followed not just mom and dad not just grim and grandpa, like every adult in your child's life, so
Some of them are no especial gifts from adults outside the family and making sure that all the adults in your life
and respect those boundaries so for us and make my son is a typical thirteen where he doesn't like enjoy
family, fun time at all, which is just like having dinner, he hath bud,
in the past. When we go into situations where there are family, friends or family, who would usually
we are entire family with hugs. He doesn't like that. He doesn't like to be hope. He's never been hugger, so
When I would go into those situations, I was shoot a quick reminders.
I've? Already hey just signal? Eli feels more comfortable being greeted with a high five. Not a hugger! Please
respect that, and so he goes in those situations- and
feels like he has some autonomy over his body because he dies and that incredibly important
for not only knew my husband to respect. But
every member of our family and every adult that we come in contact with
Well, I think it's great, because I think that empowers him to say this makes me feel uncomfortable. You guys have his back and say if you're uncomfortable, no one should be doing that to you. So I think what that does. It gives him the power where, if someone were to force something on him, I think that opens the door perfectly.
How you guys like hey? We set these rules and someone is an abiding by then someone broke the rules that we all follow her.
Your trust that yeah like it's it's annoying
for us and it's something that we're going to teach our daughter growing up as well, like she's, still young enough, that she doesn't really get it and just want to hug everything like even trees, but it's something
we want to make sure that we can still that, like your body, is your body and no one has a right to it, except for you just because there, in a doll just because their position of authority absolutely not, and the thing that I can't like two real in
not bad stuff that we drilling Ethel. I can ever
junkie upset usually about personal safety, but it applies here more than ever. Trust
or got. I cannot tell you how many stories we
old or heard or looked into about child sexual.
We use where some someone in the child's life said. I got. I got a funny feeling like I didn't like it, but I just told myself I was being silly. This is
your child's life. This
is your child safety and happiness? Trust your gut? Is your
times? Kids? This is your niece enough, you, MRS every child, that you care about our life,
feel free to be weird and feel free to be rude. There is so
much more out there on this subject, and I just wanna say a big thank you to our partners at darkness, delight for providing this information for working with us to
we can make sure were giving you the appropriate tool,
and every neighbouring wonderful. Now we
say for sure. If, knowing this information could have saved Peggy Real George get us.
Never wavered from his story that he acted in self defense, even in the face of all the physical prove. Otherwise, so
Whatever happened with the whole, like Valentine,
deciding Peggy Verses charges, arrest state. You know! I wonder that too. I'm surprised. It wasn't mentioned specifically in the media coverage during Georgia's arrest, but the friends who put her at the restaurant on the fourteen, the
Leaving, I can think is that they must have gotten their deeds wrong
yet there there's no question. She was found in his trunk in his storage unit that he lied about for years and years and years Joe.
You get us, was convicted of murder in two thousand five and sends to twenty five years to life in prison. The judge
who presided over his murder trial, said that he wished he could make him serve the first fourteen years of his sentence in a steamer trunk, which I can get behind. Oh my god,
but even in plain old federal prison, where George will stay until at least twenty thirty, and hopefully for as long as he lives. At least we know he can never hurt another child. The way he hurt Jerry
when and he can never do to another woman what he did to Peggy
if you want,
more information on darkness, to light just go to d, to El Dot, Org and
can also, finally to them, along with all of our source material on our website, crime, junkie, podcast dot com and be
Your followers on Instagram at crime, tricky broadcast we'll be back next week with a brand new,
crime junkie is an audio chuck production
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Transcript generated on 2021-04-09.