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Newport Cast getting better stories of mental health. On my heart, apple pie casts ants bonafide. As you see titans clash with the championship we match with the time build upon the legacy of dogs. Five five rejects the college football players. National share picture presented by Easy Georgia versus Alabama Monday Eastern Spear streaming line on the Eu S, Piana less so and I'm Katy Perry be sure to check out the explosive mere of our nuclear full. But I'm gone during only yesterday in my guest If a senior editor at National review an Alley Times columnist, American Enterprise Institute, scholar and best selling off of whose latest book is called suicide of the West are the real of travellers and populism, nationalism and identity politics is destroying american democracy. Please welcome

Mulder, I thought about calling you up server, mccrone versus Trump kind of thing didn't answer, but I decided that we should have done that. We have done able handshake into a kiss into like a little moment into a thing. I could it like whispered. I like your mosque, which is why I think he was saying to about one put felt like it felt like a tree trunks really interim, which is something that is good for America. Yes,. Yeah. Maybe you know if it's good for married for us to get along with, our two hundred year old allies. That's right, but if he's only doing it, because somebody sucking up to him less good right miniature be big. Along because we have mutual interests? We have mutual evaluation and they reflect that. It shouldn't be because

Neither France is not only are you a handsome man, you're, a powerful man right emitted shouldn't just be sucking up. It should do something more. I feel like. It should just be that welcomes the show great to be here, and I thank you for coming through, and you have written quite a book here- suicide of the West, if there's a title that would catch you is that well why the title of the book well in in part, because I didn't see the death of the west or the decline of the west as grim as the title sounds and actually does an end, is grim as it sounds suicides a choice I choose to do to make these decisions that you're, making an eye I think that one of the things that people don't appreciate is that, if you you can, you can choose not to do them as well, and that a lot of the things that are our are playing. This country are within our own power to stick right. It's interesting: could you talk about nationalism, tribalism, populism, all of these things that you, you believe, are leading to the decline of America. Wait. When you talk about

The kind of work are you specifically referring to capitalism and the way it's made America thrive over the past three hundred years in parliament. I call this thing. The miracle right and the miracle isn't just capitalism, it's also natural rights, civil rights free speech, all of the things that we associate with the bill of rights. The idea that the individual sovereign that we're captains of ourselves that we are citizens, not subjects that the government works for us. We don't work for govern. These are all unbelievably new ideas in the house humanity, humanity split, often the neanderthals like three hundred thousand years ago and for most of humanity's existence we were poor, ignorant, bloody, violent creatures right in and our human nature hasn't changed. We are still the same creatures. We were ten thousand years I'll. What has changed our

I use our norms are institutions and if you don't have gratitude for them and if you don't try to protect them, though go away, it has its entering that. You say that the way you go if we could have gratitude fuller, if we don't try, protect them, because that seems like an argument. Many people in Amerika we used for one group or another. What's interesting in this book is You refer to both sides of the political spectrum, doing similar damage or an idea that that may cause damage to that idea in the same way. So for you right for national review as a conservative writer, but at the same time you are not a fan of trouble, I think that's their right, so you are saying that populism, both on Trump side and on the left, are up it will allow a disadvantage of that hurting America's better. Have a lot with there's nothing wrong with a little populism right does not. with a little. Nationalism is like a pinch of salt brings flavour and me right too much ruins the meal and waited

Much is literally poisonous right, and so all poisons are determined by the dosage. My favorite New Yorker cartoon. Which my wife got blown up for me a few years ago and framed has two dogs drinking martinis at a bar one dog says to the other. You know it's not good enough that dog succeed. Cats must also fail right and that sort of where we are as a culture right now or aware. It's not, no at this drive me crazy about my own side. These days were I talk to young conservative activists, college students and I say, look by all means fight political correctness. If that's what you want to do right, but just because being rude is politically incorrect, doesn't mean being rude is good and so much and what's happening. I think, on both sides of the political I'll. Is this this idea that you, Do almost any horrible thing.

a noise, the right people write and that's a huge part of the defence of Donald Trump, which I just fine, intellectually bankrupt, which is what he's got the right enemies or he's making the right people upset what you have to look at. What what is actually upsetting that right in some of the things that upset liberals and left. As I can agree with, and I you know I would support, but some of the other things are just sort of crossness rudeness for its own sake, and I don't see why I should defend that. Just because he's on my team, as it were, it's interesting that you bring up teams, because it does feel like America's drifting into a space where politics is solely about teams, you pick a team, but one of your team: does you defend so the other team? Whatever they do? You pick the opposite, you know in the roof is biased. This is against those are not facts because they don't work in our favour. Does this, in your opinion, led to a place where the experiment of America begins to decline? Is? Is that we think that kept moving or has just been an illusion that lasted for three hundred years, because there were people who were previously oppressed- and that was

something that America was no look at me. Look the other bad things in american history, we need to atone for the need to fix are that we have problems today. That we need to still work on. Absolutely by point is: is that again, human nature has no history. Human nature is a constant rainy at this. If you took a kid, new, Rochelle and you sent them back to a Viking village to be raised by vikings a thousand years ago? He would end up going pill. Jim, the english countryside, right you take a Viking baby and you bring its newer. Shell is gonna grow up to be an orthodox and a very big, and so These challenges exist in every generation. It is human nature to want to be part of your tribe. We are hard wired to be part of a group. That's how we evolve is to say I will do everything to help in Darwin. Writes about this we're out. Do everything to help me

team, my friends, my kid, my family, my allies, MIKE Origin and the strange is the enemy rights and what you know. It's a people in others. If common cliche that says people have to be taught to hate, no, they actually have to be taught not to hate. That's what civilizations do is tee. people to see, and it starts with Christianity or Judy running away back in the religion by our apartment? But the fundamental one side is that you'd need to teach people that strangers have human dignity, but strangers are decent people and just because you dont know them doesn't mean or or don't agree with them, It doesn't make them the enemy and I think we're falling down on that in our politics and our education and instead were telling people just go with your feelings your rage is more important than facts or argument right and that's where you get populism that we get a lot of nationalism to. But if you, if you have somebody who is trying to end you, how do you then work on responding

because that's something that I that I'm always trying to figure out in my head is it's it's one thing for people to say: let's keep politics civil, let's not have an argument, let's not point each other out as enemies etc, but there are times when Let's say Charlottesville is a good example. Here there are people who are literally saying we are nazis. These people are wishing for the end of other human beings is a bit difficult at that point to say: yes, yes, but let us sit with them and engage as they drive over it's a very difficult space to be, and I agree with you and looked and looked my last names Goldberg, I'm not really a turn. The other cheek. I am more of a smiling in wrath guys I don't know what you're talking about, but right, but my point is- and I agree with you entirely about the art- is one thing that infuriates me about what Steve Ban and in some of the people around Trump did was claimed that somehow a bunch of friggin Nazis right we're part of our coalition, and I would keep trying to explain that

people know yours and they literally say that they want to get rid of people. Like me, like you, why? Why should I think, a common in a group with them just to get this guy elected or just for political purposes? Whatever some things are this initial questions, and I'm not saying that we should go into Charlottesville and shot a bunch of nazis right, but the idea that somehow they have something important say that I need to find common ground with em. I I think, is ridiculous right. I also think it's ridiculous. The call people who aren't Nazis nazis way to demonize them and I think there's a lot of that. That's going on to it so to prevention, question and you have a sort of figure it out. As you go doesn't mean you can't have big arguments. I have always believed that democracy is about disagreement, not about agreements about having arguments, but I dont like about our power. it's right now is how people dont think arguments matter at all that facts. Don't matter that, you know the whole point of the light,

It was this idea that you could persuade people write and part of the reason I wrote this book is as much Mary tailed, my allies on the right is that a lot of people just giving up on persuasion and instead it's just hammer and tongs cats, must feel it's all about power, but arguments in defence of Donald Trump and the in twenty. Sixteen were all about winning and strength. Winning in strength are not their absolutely a moral cons. winning, for what strength for what unity for what it has to be the ideas that underlines and were in a moment where a lot of people just don't care about ideas anymore. One of the big ideas that you share in the book is that America needs to focus on less dense politics on both sides

more on merits, because merits is how capitalism thrives. Marriages, what moves US society forward when you say that, though, do you think sometimes a statement like that ignores the fact that some people's merits is overlooked actually because of identity politics. Yet look at what you know it's funny like most liberals. I talk to. They lay like the words pop. They agree with me on the populism and nationalism and they don't like the and the tribal they don't like the energy policy right right. I am not saying that you can't drizzle, I'm not that there isn't discrimination other. Obviously, there is what I'm saying is that one of the great inglorious things and Obama was very eloquent about this. About this country is, is not that America were that the founding fathers were hypocrites. Minister in this country they were in all slavery. Was a big kill the big wait? What about that right right description? What

they have been you don't ever getting. So what happens is the neighbour him Lincoln comes along with the Gettysburg address and he redefines what these countries about about? You know, equality and in Martin Luther King, says, wait a second a hundred years later, as wait a second, the founding fathers were to promissory note, to american people, that all men, including black men, are committed equal. It's the unfolding of that story writes that that is what matters, and so one of the core values. The all of civilization is, is the story we tell ourselves or ourselves and one of the reasons why Martin Luther king was so persuasive is he was appealing to the best. ideals of White America and saying you should take people as you find them one of the great about the american founding, which doesn't get taught anymore, is that we got rid of titles of nobility. We got rid of of the notion that, simply by an accident of birth, one person is better

another person and so a little identity politics, just like a little nationals in terms of ethnic pride and solitary? All of that is fine when you start reducing whole categories of people to an abstraction. and say it all. I need to know about. You is the color of your skin. Why that's? When you get into a problem- and this idea that all white people are racist is? Is it possible not true in our intermarriage rates, between white and black We through the roof. They can all be racists right, but I, but I think the argument is less or why people are racist and the system has been created by white people to oppress people of color. So I think when when people say why people races, I think that's disingenuous, but most of the time the argument people are saying is hate. We can admit that this system from the founding fathers through to read lining through disintegration, was written in such a way that it would benefit one race over another. Would it would hamper the cats

and allow the dogs look, and I think, there's obviously a lot of truth, but that at the same time the definition of accounts as well changed over time? You write the Benjamin Franklin changed for everyone except black people, so that natural- and that's my as part of my point- is that It is an outrage that this country took so long to include everybody in this idea of universally quality. That is now an argument for getting rich? the value of universal equality right right it is, it is to say that We need to be more consistent in applying these ideals rather than saying these ideals themselves are bankrupt, because it is these ideals that for all of human history. The average human being everywhere on earth lived on average three dollars a day: Africa, Asia, Europe. Ever where right and then once it only once and all of human history, it starts to go like this and its because these ideas, start getting put into action? Think we should be released

in this moment the greatest alleviation of material poverty in all of human history, a hundred millions of people in Asia and Africa coming out of poverty, and it's not because of you in programmes they help it's because of these ideas, starting to germinate lifting people up. Maybe I'm just a little gratitude for them. Maybe have a little room to say. Maybe we entire store of this three hundred year. Miracle isn't a story shortly of oppression and tyranny where we bad bad things happen in the past yes have things been getting better yet right, you can say both things. You can say both things new on the way I like to think of it. As this I go. Capitalism in many ways should be like software on a phone. It constantly needs to be updated and at some point it feels like the updating, a stopped and people allow its to you know stagnate in the way that it is

and cheer point of of gratitude before I let you go, I think the one thing I am. I wonder if you can maybe understand this is when people say you should be grateful for for what you have. Do you not think that gratitude is always relative to the bottom versus the top where you are because to say to somebody- and you hear this old terminal, nothing use anchors for politicians will say all black people. You complain about America. Go live in Afghanistan, see what that's like so, but you're not living in. Data. If I'm in a Michelin, star, restaurant and the food is not great, you can't tell me to go to Arby's, because I complain right. I'm saying to you. The food is not what it was promised rare in this restaurant. So is it not difficult to say to pee who have gratitude when they are not living in the promise of what the countries meant to be there, and I think that that's fair. I think at the same time, through

I dont say that two people right in our own- I now have a regularly honestly amazing, oh, and so I one of them. You agree one of the good ones, one of the things I for one in the work I've I've taken slings and arrows from lots and directions, including from a lot of friends and former friends right of that agenda? Taking one of things we say to people who make that argument is stop making that argument right. Try that. not how you should frame this kind of thing. What I would say is that you know the the pursuit of happiness is: is it's not a guarantee of the right to pursue it and one of the great things about Freedom, the miracle liberal, democratic capital- and you want to call it is it gives more people the opportunity to pursue it. Could that get better yeah, but you can't

Can any the systems we had prior to three hundred years ago and I'm not sure you can look to most of the sort of nationalist or socialist systems and say they are better at right, and so when people say we fall short of ideals, I simple, of course that's why they call them idea you're not supposed to be able to live out yet this was to be a Northstar. You know they're the thing that your your true north at you March, towards right and always get better at them. Michael, does it we shouldn't throw them away, because this is only game in town in terms of of what has actually taken humanity out of the mark its natural environment. Capitalism is unnatural. Democracy is unnaturally if they were natural, you would think they would show up a little earlier in the evolutionary record than about two hundred and ninety nine thousand years into our existence here, and so maybe these are that we should be a little more protective of a goose. The golden

whose came into your house at a nowhere and started when eggs, don't sound, modern anymore started. Squeeze now winning lottery tickets. This is a right analogy, but yeah, but you what your response to it should be gratitude not like give me more in a more lottery tickets. Then you can produce, but that's what the stories about is it's not really so much by greed. It's about in gratitude sentencing. I think, fundamentally, I understand what you say and I that's what I proceed about the book is, it makes me think back gauges and ideas and fundamentally what the book is saying is don't throw the baby out with the bath better it we. We can disagree about the size of carbon all kinds of things, but there's some fundamental things that we should I'll be able to agree, have merit our worth keeping you stopped conversation. Thank you so much for being here I can very much of the work daily

the criminal ears it wants. The daily show reignited spent eleven, ten central and Tommy Central and calmly several watch full episodes. Videos at the daily showed I was on Facebook, Twitter and Instagram answer to the daily show on Youtube or exclusive competence in these podcast sponsored by better help online therapy. I Michelin in media, Jesse, licence, therapies and host of getting better stories of mental health, join us for discussions with Megan trainer Chris Barge Rebel Wilson and more from discussing motherhood to emigrating to general mental health. Our guests are inspiring, we all struggle with the same things. So let's talk about it and these stigmatized them find our new podcast getting better. ways of mental health on Iheart Apple pie casts Spotify. This has been a comedy central podcast.