You listening to Carmody central everybody entrepreneur. Welcome to another episode of the daily social distancing show on some nice episode. We wanted to talk, bout, the only conversation every American, is having right now. What do we want to do about the police do abolish them? Do you defend them? them smoke the whole cotton of tear gas from it. They learn their lesson while tonight's, instead of guessing or using some random account on Twitter to try to figure it out. We can be speaking to actual organizes and some of the actual people who have been behind the defined the police and abolish the police movements, and these people have from the very beginning. So, if you're, confused or if you don't agree or if you just want traffic What the hell is going on well tonight, episode is for you specifically you yeah, you Brian, I see so, let's do it. Welcome to the data

social distancing, show from troubles couch in New York City to yours out somewhere in the world. This is the daily didn't ensure withdrawal years before we get into the conversation, that's happening among activists and everyone in America. Let's catch up, with the ongoing conversation in Washington, because, while the movements in the streets have been building up steam, Democrats in Washington have been scrambling for away to respond and yesterday, I think they figured it out. Democratic law makers are receiving criticism ever asylum tribute to George Floyd and the? U S Congress yesterday, some we're not a fan of the colorful can't say: cloth scarf draped around their necks, saying they turned the traditional african textile into a political prop. Ok, I understand the symbolic

Shove kneeling. Remember, George Floyd. What I don't understand is why they had to dress like extra from coming to America. To effect a long people were confused about why the Democrats WAR african cloth to talk about George Floyd and police brutality, it felt like they were trying to heart. But I'm gonna be honest. I was glad that they managed to talk Nancy Pelosi down from the original Alfred. Sheer plant was a step too far and look, however much you blame Nancy closely on the Democrats for doing this. We also have to assign some of the blame to the african store owner who knew full well, but no good can come from one person by fifty can t cloths nor Nancy, and you have to trust me the more critical of the way the less offensive it becomes. Ok bye, bye now to be fair. The Democrats weren't just kneeling and wearing cancer cloth. They also unveiled police reform legislation that would make some pretty big changes,

It would ban no knock warrants in drug cases to try and avoid situate like the one that got Brianna Taylor killed while she was sleeping in her own bed, it would make choke, holds a civil rights violation to try and prevent police from taking another Aragon as life, and one of the biggest measures in this legislation would make it easier to prosecute police who use excessive force, as opposed to now, where it's almost impossible to convict police office if they ve done something wrong like now. You you need a catch them on video then have a day. That's willing to prosecute them, then have a jury that actually wants to hold cops accountable, and even if you get all that, you still need to find the cops whole crux and destroy it. Otherwise they just get to go back out on the force, but well democratic, proposing legislation to reform the police. Unsurprisingly, most Republicans in Congress, don't seem to be on board and ass will present trump.

He's doubling down hard on his support for the police. President tramp held a meeting with police union officials and local in state law enforcement officials. Yesterday at the White House he vowed there will be no dismantling of american policing. There will be two funding. There will be judged. Handling of our police, the European Union. Banding of our police are police have been letting us live in peace, so we want to make sure we don't have any better actors in there and sometimes you'll see some honourable things like we would destroy recently. But ninety nine, I say ninety nine point nine, but let's go with ninety nine percent of them, a great great people. Yes, ninety nine percent of all police, a great people- and I guess it's just unlucky- that protest as happened to keep meeting with the bad one percent over and over and over again just those guys work a lot of overtime, and you know.

I always find it amazing how trump manages to always see the good in the groups that he likes. He says that the police, a ninety nine percent, great people Charlottesville said there were people little good on both sides. He said the armed protesters, admission same people who stormed the state House were very good people who just frustrated, but clearly, if you're on trumps, good side

He will find a way to interpret anything. You do in the best way possible like if Trump likes you he could walk in on you in bed, with his wife and he'd, probably be like my wife and my best friend, taking a nap together. Good people now. Look, let's be clear. I am not saying that all cops are bad, but the problems with the police are much more widespread than Trump is acknowledging, because every single time, every single time, a police departments gets audited or investigated the results that come back time and time again show

He brought and systemic issues, often from the top, is like turning on a black light in a hotel room. There's no way you only gonna find one stain and unlike Mitt Romney, who was marching in Washington over the weekend saying black lives matter. Trump has never expressed support for the Black Lars Madame Movement, and yesterday his press secretary claimed that Trump doesn't need to say black lives matter, because this support with black people is overwhelming. Killing does in general, with Mitt Romney still does with the core message of black lives matter, never on, can say three words outside on Pennsylvania Avenue. But I would note this that present tromp line, a per cent of the block vote, Miriam

one two percent of the block vote. Ok. Firstly, that's bullshit, Rami, didn't get two percent of the black boat. He got six percent while running against the only black President Obama, but either way this is just sat iconic. We believe this is a thing you gonna brag about getting eight percent of the black votes. Really, President out of a hundred bragging about getting eight percent of the black hole is like some lose a bragging to his friend, like Susie said she just sees you as a friend or she told me she sees me as an older brother, so crumbs position on the protesters around defending the police around black large matter, it seems pretty clear, but just in case you are willing to give him the benefit of the doubt, This morning the president of the United States, tweeted, this president,

is questioning the motives of the seventy five year old activists shoved to the ground by Buffalo Police officers during a protest last Friday, the president tweeted good. Gino could be an anti for provocative door and said I watched harder than was pushed could be set up. Could you remains in serious but stable condition at the hospital. This is one of the more alarming tweets we have ever seen from. President tromp appears to be based on a news clip from they want America NEWS Network, which is a network for conspiracy, theory, cooks, Dino is a long time, peace activists and volunteer for catholic worker, which is a movement dedicated to justice and peace, yeah trumpets so desperate to defend the police. But instead of admitting that maybe they used excessive force and that none of them helped a person who was bleeding out on the ground. He turns around

and blames the old man from that video for being an anti felt provocative cheer who busted his head open on purpose, and I mean a company that actually say but like that of some bet- she's crazy theory. Let me tell you something. If someone came up to me with a plan that involved me busting my head open on the sidewalk, I would ask them to come up with a better plan. I mean. How do you look at that video see that old man and think that he's an anti fa provocative? You think that old man is causing chaos? Who sees that I feel a trump is the kind of person who watch the movie up and he thinks is a story about an elderly terrorists to hijack the balloon house, but guess what this tweets and everything else the trumpets said- and

and over the past couple of weeks. Trump has clearly picked which side he is on in this debate, and I mean forget about eight percent of the black vote. If this is trumps, attitude towards reforming the police, all there's no can take off in the world. Big enough to make up for its coming up will be having a discussion with leading experts and activist by fixing America's police problem. So, stick around my back. Looking back to the daily social distancing show you know so much discussion out there right now about how to address America's problem

of police brutality do reform, the police do defend the police, do you abolish the police and to help myself and everyone whose watch and get a better handle on its? I wanted to talk to some of America's experts and activists about how to reform America's police departments. So earlier today I spoke some Patrice colours: a co founder of black lives matter, Josie, Duffy, Rice, a journalist and lawyer Samson young. We co founder of campaign, zero Michael Denzil Smith, who is a type media center, fellow and author, and Alex Vitaly Brooklyn professor and author of the end of policing, and very welcome to the daily social distancing, show that most people we have spoken to add one point, but thank you so much for joining us thinks we're having a sad eggs Patrice. I'm gonna jump Sweden with you as a co founder of black lives matter. Did you ever think you would see the day. When everyone from Amazon too

Germany would have been proudly proclaiming black lives matter. No, no. I did not see that day coming. I know I know that when we sort of black eyes merrily seal of one eye that it will resolve and deeply with folks across the country, especially black people and black people across the globe think that some of the largest corporations would have it stirred on their screens now not at all do you feel like lives matter, has achieved its purpose now or or do you think that a lot of people are using black lives matter as a as a cover to say We're we're good? Like some people say? Yes, it's good. The people are saying it other say it's not enough. As a co found, I feel, like you better placed than most people to speak to it, sure I think, seven years ago saying black lives matter was incredibly radical. I think that Any of us would have used that

Her as a marker on where our elected official stood- and where pointed at me, instead you know, these are blocked wise matter. We knew that ok, we were getting. We were getting them to them, but if they said all lives matter, we knew there, alas, cause and seven years later. I think it's not just about black lives matter is about what does that actually mean what we mean when we say black lives matter, which is why do you find the police has become such a huge and resounding call? I'm really. Proud of the conversation that were having has not just a movement but as american people and people living inside this country. Right now, I think more than ever before in America in and around the world, people are asking questions about policing. All the different ways to police can policing be improved. Is releasing even essential in the way that we see it every single day and the

I've gathered. All of you in this panel is because you know you some of the voices who have been most vocal in talking about policing. As we see it, you know everything from the reforms that could be done today to long term notions that could change the way we see enforcement of laws in the future, and so you know, maybe I'll start with you, SAM as part of a can't wait the organisers. Got a shot out from you know, former President Barack Obama, and I can't wake- was was initially you know, and I think it still is organised. If, where you went for police reforms, that can be done like immediately what they explained a little bit about what the thinking behind that was so We looked at the academic literature. There were forty years of literature that shows that more restricted use of force policies can reduce killings by police and police shootings overall of fatal and fatal. We recognise that you know the things that cities can do right now immediately American can do at least you can do it as a whole.

Reduction strategy, but I think ultimately, I think when a country is right now is striving for a lot more, it's not just to do harm reduction is about how do we actually move towards transformational change? That goes beyond changing you support policies but includes building alternatives to the point Andy funding the police that ought to be supported and centre, This moment, because that's what you said yet it feels like, because this movement has been amplify. What's going on online? A lot of people, including myself, have been drawing resources from you know little snippets here and their little snippets here and there and they ve been organized and activists hosting zoom calls in, and you know, showing people in presentations, what what they want to do, but it does feel like right now. Everyone is left to their own devices to try. Figure out. What any of these things mean, which

invariably means that everybody gets too. You know, I guess, make up what the thing mean, so you Talkin about reform sandwich. I think a lot of people understand if we're talking about de funding. We will go back to you and the most will start moving around, but what is defended the policemen, because for some people, what they hear you're saying is take money away from the police as like a judgment for what they ve been doing wrong. Sure I mean I really think about it, pretty simply, which is what things the police are doing right now that can actually be given over to other groups of people. Other workers have been. To do that particular thing, so we can start off with homelessness. Police are at that. Home of criminalizing. The homeless and we don't need them. To be at the helm of criminalizing the homeless. We didn't mayors and county govern. It actually show up dollars and money towards people who are homeless

and getting them housing and shelter. What about people have mental health crisis? Why of the police the first responders this is not actually a job for a police officer suggests for a social worker a psychiatrist. All this infrastructure is essentially gutted. Communities that I live in, and communities around country. So why, in the happening, though, is replaced with over bloated police budgets and so you look at LOS Angeles, where I'm from which are LAPD Department, actually receives fifty four percent of the city's budget, meaning that everything is that a community needs there are not receiving. But they are receiving a gun and a badge, and that is deeply unfortunate, Alex. Let's switch over to the abolish conversation. As the author of the end of policing and ass. A professor. You looked into the ways that people can live in a police free world. Now I won't let my mind struggles to understand the concept and that's me,

because I've never seen it, you know. Sometimes you can't imagine what you you never come across. What exactly does the end, policing mean what it. What does it mean to abolish the police? Will it really more about a process driven by a set of principles? It is some pre determined outcome. I think what we are seeing on the streets today when people say defined the police. Yes, it's about these immediate changes that Patrice is talking about, but is also about a generation of young people. You know crying out for a walk That is a driven by racial and class inequalities that are enforced by policing and the sad truth is that there has been a while, the police, are played an american society enforcers of systems that produce these inequalities and in every time we turn a problem over to them it. It makes those inequalities worse. In the long run, and so police abolition is about trying to reduce the burden of policing today, while we

or to build something better for the future. So so, let's talk a little bit about that, Michael, maybe you can help me if, if there are no police, I like what are you proposing Do you see a world with no police, or is it just a different kind of people who enforce laws one? What does that mean? We say: abolish the police cars we mean abolished police right now, there's no mincing of language. There, there's no there's nothing! There were trying to trick you on a bright the thing I think that We have come down it's just like whose making the positive argument for the police four, and I that, because Tell me something right now that the police are good at other than weapon ass, like other than doing that? What are they good at?

they don't prevent murders they come in and they tried to figure out who did the murder after and they don't do any of the things that were sent out to do like Patrice is telling us it's like. We want them to solve homelessness, but it would that needs just get the homeless people out of the street. We want them to solve these mental health crises without just means kill the people that are having mental health breakdown, then other things that we will be asked them to do their good at and so been keep giving them lots and lots of money to do those things. I think one of the things that people always say when you start talking about abortion The police are defining the place. Is what about murder right? What about murder? What about rape? People say to me what what, if your kid got, kidnapped as if that's not something I'm worried about everything. Oh, there's a parent. My since the day he was born right. The reality is that the police are doing a very good job of handling those situations right and that

We picture. Accountability in this country were lying on a violent system to reduce violence. Right were lying on a cruel system to reduce cruelty, and we are funding the back end of of of of social ills. Instead of the front end of addressing them, so what we see is that, like right now, it's very hard to imagine a world without police and very hard to imagine a world different

the police, because that's all we have to rely on, we are dreaming of a new world and the ability to imagine a new world is exciting. This is exciting right. I mean it's hard to step out of what we know, but it's an opportunity to think about. If we were to designing this from scratch. Is this? What we would have designed is this what the police would decide? I don't think it is around when we come back I'll, be back with our panel discussing more on how to reform America's police departments dongle, which welcome back to the daily social distancing show earlier today. I spoke with several activists and exports about reforming America's police departments, he has more of that discussion. I think a lot of the conversation that I've heard from everybody on this panel and and from every author that

red or everyone whose written a study on its says the same thing. You cannot talk about crime without talking about lack of opportunities without talking lack of rights sources about talking communities that are oppressed or not or underserved underserved communities. So my question then becomes what is the process goes out? I'll tell you from a personal standpoint, I go what have in the interim we ve seen repeatedly in America, police departments that go on go slows all go on like basically many strikes, even if they don't call it a strike. What process to use the unfolding on the way there, because you're saying to these people, we were getting rid of the police. As you know it, and I mean police departments higher thousands and thousands of people who earn.

From this, I can see many people who don't have a vested interest in allowing a smooth transition, so is, you know, have have any of you seen any thought. That's been put into how that transition would happen. You know there's two ways to think about it: it's manufacturing the political, consent for this and part of that stories about neutralizing the power of police unions who become a locust for a kind of ideology that says the only way we can solve our problems with people with guns and in New York. In the last week, over fifteen elected officials rejected police, endorsements and winning a police contributions and gave them away to bail funds. They said we're not gonna work with these. Please the union's anymore, not because of their pensions, but because of their toxic politics. But the other thing is that we have very concrete interventions in mind and deal with very specific things that police do, including shootings and homicide

we have evidence that shows that well, founded a well run. Community based anti violence initiatives, credible messenger programmes can reduce the violence out driving young people in the mass incarceration or labeling than gang barriers are super predators, but let's talk about the racial element than which is: how do you convince large swathes of America's population who are wealthier and whites by into a policy where they go. We do like the police. Why would they buy into Europe? We. How do you try and move that needle because it, the needle will need to be moved at some point to get to the shipping is an interesting question, because in many of those communities they barely have the police right. We are asking them to imagine a world like the one that they live in and many of these communities police are not driving down their streets. There are not seeing the police at every at every juncture. Every night sinks performing stop impressed on their sidewalks right.

When their kid gets caught smoking weed they deal with it home the idea of them, making the police, who is largely theoretical, I think, and not tangible. In its. Resting because I think in many communities where the police are the most president are the communities that are calling for less believe. At the same time, respectfully Josie, I find like what, when you read the statute, if you, if you, if you just read through America's history, a lot of the time black leaders- and you know black community leaders, then the ones who are asking for more police. You know when people talk about that I'm bulls back in the day in American being tough on crime. I, seeing the videos of black community needs saying we need you to send in more police, sending new polices, but we need more police. Is there a disconnect in the black community? Where is it like all the black conservative people? You know what it is like. Not conservativism, like Republican Democrat,

ravages older black people signal. We need more police an end and the different generation thing different thing. I think what would change Foreman wrote an incredible book about this a couple of years ago and I think one of the things that he concluded, that I think is it worth keeping in mind the starch and historically and, as you know, you think about the late. Eighty is early nineties in particular, when black leaders were calling for more police, they were also calling for a lot of other resources we'd like more pleasing, also like better schools. We, like our kids to having to go to the park we like are after school

program we'd like jobs right and what they got was more police with the other stuff, and so what we're seeing now is that only investing in in law enforcement does not create the kind of change and does not create the better community. But we want to see- and I worked in the South bronx- they can get their trash picked up for weeks, but you could find a police officer if you washed five steps in either direction is not the kind of world anybody wants to live in. I don't. I truly don't think anybody white, wealthy, poor, black immigrant and non immigrant wants to live in that world I also think to just point into your question Trevor there is part of this process is also culture, people, people the change in culture changing and that often takes time I think we're in a moment where we can call for more, because when show up to a march, in LOS Angeles, where fifty thousand people come out. It's not all black people

Multi racial movement led by black people, but I see all types of books are holding up black eyes matter. Signs define signs are largely a younger generation saying we are tied. The ways in which police have related to black people. We stand on their side, Natalie Portman, who is not less You know I had a long talk with her about defend the police to enforce the movement for black lies, put out a letter or we had celebrities design onto other defend the police and Natalie. Have we had a real hard heart? She said to me. I really feel safer for police and saying this to you makes me deeply the ball, but it's true while I dont know how to I don't want to deal with this kind. Dixon she's, like I'm gonna, go study, send me ever you have I'll? Do my own research and a couple days she wrote on our answer post, I'm with a defined the police movement and hears the process. I was deeply uncomfortable with this because other

women they actually have kept me say: I have called the police on people, they ve kept me save I understand that my safety has everything to do with black peoples and safety, that to me as where we're going people, are re imagining taking the time studying the trying to figure this thing out, because there's no, easy fix, yeah, and I think we have to take note of how long that process can be right. So, like formal protest against police Violence in this country by black folks been happening since the early nineteen hundred right, and then why affluent liberal sort of another stand back concept around making. Sixty seven with the current commission beings. I'd know, put together by our president the Johnson and then there being like. Oh, this is gonna keep happening unless we fund these

grants, and then we have the building of mass incarceration in the investment in policing of further policing the ninety four crime bill, and then you have black lives matter and twenty thirteen and now we're getting to be funding the police like at that's a long art and its understanding. There There's a lot happening like some some, we, so years, and so it is a lot of rich opportunity right now for that kind of consciousness. Shifting it's interesting say it is a new movement because it does feel completely different, not just in the physical movement of people, but in. Movement of ideas. The way the overturn window has shifted completely. You know I I I think what's was what's interesting to me is, is even too to SAM, for instance, you know is part of the organization. I can't wait. You guys came out and very quickly to respond to what was happening. You know you received a little bit of criticism within the community, but what I find interesting was you didn't your heels in. Instead, you should of shifted your resources towards defending you said yes,

The movement is here now and we are moving towards that and we support this, which always have from the beginning. But you you worked to clarify that mess message. That's not an easy, for people to do, and I want to know why you guys decided to do that. Look We recognise that this moment is unique. This is the combination of so much work from so many people across the country and the to meet demand that we are hearing is that people want to re, imagine and transform the current system. They want to defend the police. They want to build alternatives. So, yes, it's true that new having a uniform policy, the bands things like chokehold stranglehold were mixed. Debbie force a last resort rather than a first resort. Yes, they can reduce police killings, but ultimately them all should be ending police ask in its entirety I recognise that I think the best strategy to do that is to be supporting the work. It's happening on the ground and cheaply.

Those resources away from police and into community based alternatives, or I will that's part, two of our panel discussion on how black lives matter and the defined movement and the abolish movement are looking to reshape America's policing, as we note after the break will be wrapping things up and figuring out how to get where people are trying to go. We'll come back to the daily social distancing show today episode, we ve been talking to activists and experts on how to reform America's policing system. This clearly a problem, but how do you fix? It will have the final part about discussion, Let me let me ask you this before we wrap up the panel, which can people go because you know Patrice, not everyone is naturally Portman. Some, not everybody will get to talk to you, one and one, which I think everyone would benefit from, but but wait wait, and people go. You know. One of the things I struggled with in America is its very strange

Passionate during these years, because there are many, almost needle, Miss movements, I would call them- and I come from a country where your full traveller leader full, yet nobody I'm saying leader listen terms of, like you know, in solemn, for example in South Africa, you know who to talk to about the thing in America feels like everyone talks and then The message to get the message gets money do know everyone gets to own abolish. Everyone gets to own defined and longest on and in my my will opinion. It then becomes difficult to know what is or isn't policy or one idea, because people don't know who to talk too? So? Where can people go? where can people learn? Waken people actually find a centralized source of information for like no. This is defined. This is abolished because otherwise it it feels

it becomes very easy for bad actors and other people to just be like. Oh, no abolish means that you shelving your own crimes so sorely genuinely four people were watching and war completely open. They not blocking the like Patrice. I want to learn, I wanna be naturally Portman as well Where do I go and who do? I looked all ok, so I hear you, and that makes total sense, and this is like a deep. I think this is really generational, our generation is not interested in a single person being the messenger for by recent number, when it's not safe, many of the things were talking about were calling at the police that that safety have essential leader. Its much safer, haven't decentralized system, and so I think what happens- and I really appreciate your samper- I'm just naming what you just, namely probably talk as though my my folks as organizers. I think what have to do is sort of beyond message

the team, and sometimes that takes a little bit of time, but once we get there, you kids, the conversation rate. We first and the conversation what fifteen days go a bit about defined. The media was looking at us like we were crazy, their labor at Q. Let's keep talking up likewise matter, but what you see now is also every single call I get from media outlets as about defined, or this conversation so were injured in the right place. Of our organizations and I think all the work We're doing is is on the same pathway, tor. Where we want to go so black eyes matter. Black eyes met You can find us there or the movement for black lives, which is in for beheld dot org. Both those organizations are having a robust conversation about De Fund and their having it. Not just as communication strategies

also thinking about what are the real policies. So those are the two organisations, but I don't wanna say those are the organizations. I think it's really important that people feel like they have other places to go, because this country's huge there are millions. People here we do need many groups and people to have the right understanding at this moment and how to move forward all I I can't. Thank you enough. Honestly. I think right now, what's been spot in Minneapolis has has its ripple effect felt around the world and you are some of the people who, I think many people are looking, should not just for answers but guidance but, as you said, even just a shake up to think of the wool differently. So thank you for TAT. The time. Thank you for joining us on the daily social distancing, show and who knows, maybe in a few years, will be having a conversation seeing men not only do black lives matter, but now we sold our own crimes. So thank you. So

for joining everybody? I appreciate a time Patrice, Michael Josie, SAM. And Alex. Thank you very much everybody. I love you I don T think so much wrong. What do you have a lot of food for thought and thank you so much to Patrice Josie, SAM, Michael and Alex for joining us on the show. I hope this some clarity toward beneath one movement is about and what the abolish women is about and asked what we said. Goin read: there are some websites, are making an informative, and I hope they can help. You too will thus actual for tonight's, but before we go the data when comedy central have been donating. Two three groups who are fighting against police brutality and systemic racism, the intimately cp legal defence fund, but equal justice initiative and the bail project, not if you'd like to help- and you can donates- then all you have to do- is go to the following link and give whatever you can

until tomorrow, Stacy up their daily shoulder criminal ears. Addition wants unavailing show recognised that eleven ten central one dummy central and calmly central, watchful episodes- videos at the daily showed I was on Facebook, Twitter and Instagram answer to the daily show on Youtube or exclusive caused in him. All this has been a many central podcast,