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To go for many people. Your name did not exist in their minds at all. In any way, and now you are A especially for many young Well, because of your views in and around tax and the Super healthy around the world. How did you come to this from from from what you do, because you are you're a historian? Yeah effect, you are a dutch historian, I'm a dutch historic, that's I've run. The dutch historian, I think you know I'm really part of a much wider movement. You know a whole new generation that things that we need to move on to new ideas Lee that realise that we need a massive transformation of our economy, and I was just in a blaze of the World Economic Forum where it usually, no, not many people get to go there, and this is one of the few people, their rights talking common sense when we actually have a clip that wins viral? If we can play that right now, almost no rais d really issue of tax avoidance right and of the rich, just not paying their fair share. I mean it's not like. I met a fire fighters, Vitus COM,

and no one is allowed to speak about water. This is not rocket science, I mean we can talk for a very long time about all these stupid philanthropy schemes. can divide bona once more. How come on? It's me are we talking about Texas? That's it taxes, taxes, taxes, all the rest, bullshit admiring. So this was given contact. This was you sitting with the rich people in the world, you- and you are you- are you actually supposed to be there to talk about? Just like the other aspects of your book like universal basic, etc, and you surprised everyone with that. They were not happy. They didn't. Like that. Now I was I mean I was supposed to go there and promote my book, took about universal basic and yes to become a really popular idea, but during the com,

Since I became more and more uncomfortable because you can talk about all sorts of issues, there, feminism participation, equality, but then no one raises a t. Word right: you're, not don't people dont, really talk about taxes and yes avoided. So I just went to my hotel room and prepared short speech- and I got the question from from the moderator- basically ignored discretion in that Wendy. since that, since that little moment endeavours have you noticed a few private jets following you now have you, because it seems like something that that would put a lot of really really wealthy people off that yeah idea of them paying more tax and avoiding it? Why do you think that's more important or should be

like one of the main conversations apart from transparency and equality and philanthropy. Well, you know I'm historian right. So if I see someone like say President Trump talk about, we should make Amerika great again. He wants to go back to the fifties or something like that, and I can't won't maybe that that's a good idea, because in the fifties we have much higher tax rates for the rich. In fact, a billion are like trumpet pay like ninety percent of marginal tax rate right. Yes, the estate tax was over. Seventy percent for people like TAT, so yeah mean make Amerika great again bring back those higher tax rates. That would be my slacken. There are many people would argue against you and say to you, you mean you you, you say you want to raise taxes on on the wealthy, but the wealthy already.

The definition of taxes people are paying almost fifty percent of what they earn. Isn't that fair? How do you respond to them? You know this is who boring debate in this country about? You know capitalism versus socialism. For my perspective, it sends bit ridiculous like we're. Talkin bout ideas like Medicare for all Seventy percent of all Americans is in favour of that higher taxes on their sit. Seventy five percent is in favour of that. Right is utterly mainstream and another set of the standard response here with his hands. I communism that sounds like Venezuela, but it's not communism, its common sense It's what most people support for this one at one of the things I know get that gets thrown at me. All the time is people all you you you raise the taxes and everyone's gonna leave, because I mean you know if you, if you raise the text for the region in the richer gonna go live in countries where they don't have to pay as much Texan. You lost all of those incomes and you ve lost all those people in your country. Well, America's the most powerful country in the world. You know it can easily crackdown on tax. Paradises like

where I'm from right or one of the main text paradises for american corporate corporations. So. You know, that's really a matter of political will. I guess just there. being willing to say, hey, we're, gonna tax. You know right away. You go out of what you do. It's interesting that you you you fight for these ideas. When you come from Europe, people would say to you, but Russia, you you come from a country where things are great. You do have all of us services. People are not struggling as much as they are and other parts of the world. Why is it so important to you that, Well I mean they. American debate is incredibly influential back home and so were, and we ve got I think an equality in Europe is what brand and the welfare state that is under pressure, but I mean it's also true that I felt look at a debate right, RAP Medicare for all, for example, America is the only country in the world, the rich world that doesn't have it, and still it has the most expensive healthcare system in and life expectancy is going down so yeah that

pretty ridiculous. You have a bunch of ideas that many people would consider ridiculous, depending on their aid, and I find a lot of young people genuinely love, as genius. Utopia for realists is the book that you wrote and its come back: prominence again because you is just like a fun read you talk about these ideas and how they could actually be implemented, which is interesting, is not just the ideas. Universal basic income, open borders. Fifteen our work week really just I mean this is like a book. This is like freely we'll for a GNP is like nightmare stories. That's what this is. Indeed, the mixture of rapid mortar reading my death. I just say that we have the picture Rupert Murdoch like how do you feel about that there is. There is one people you speaking about. I framed it. Obviously, its rights like what we talk about these issues, like universal basic income, for instance, seems like a

crazy idea. Users pay people to not work, then why would anyone work or one not many people now actually, is that if you go back to the sixties, everyone believe all the experts believe that some form of basic income was going to be implemented in the United States, and it was actually Richard Nixon of all people who had a bill for a modest basic income that got through that has a representative slice and was only killed in the Senate by Democrats, not because they did not like the idea of completely eradicate for eradicating poverty, but because they wanted to hire basic income. So it's it it's a pretty busy I am sorry that I cannot describe into book and other another. Is our thing is: actually there were major trials with basic income in the? U S back, then the thousands of families received a basic income today, its asked. What would happen turns out. It was really effective. You know healthcare costs when down crime went down kissed it much better in school, but there was one problematic finding is that they also found that the divorce rates went up. You know why the law, because a lot of women were like a game.

I believe that that asshole, but then, but then only preservatives city, obviously said. Okay, we go on basic Chicken anymore. This is gonna, make women much too independent. It was only years later, bad they found out that they have made a statistical mistakes. In reality, the divorce rate did not go up, falls It is our history. Fellow would let me let me ask you this than as a historian, who is basing your arguments on things that have actually happened. For street you, when you see politicians like Trump, I guess miss stating that plans based on a history that they did. They don't seem to understand themselves because, like you said trumps as women, do it the way it was, but then we proposed? The weight was he's like. No, I don't like that. Do you think that as people in general, we just don't know

about our histories. While what frustrates me the most, are these people, the socalled moderates, the centrist who say? Oh, that's, never gonna happen. You know that is too radical right. If you zoom out a letter back, you see that so many times in history, utopia fantasies have become reality, that's important to keep him. I know that democracy was once a crazy idea. Right I into slavery, was once a total fantasy. It all happened, but it never starts in the center. It always happened, starts on the fringes, with people first dismissed as radical as crazy as lunatics right. So I guess we gotta be the unreasonable. Sometimes you have to be unreasonable to move the conversation forward. The in our work week is probably my favorite part of your book. How? How does that even begin to work? It goes back to a very old idea. Actually, the economist John Maynard Keynes. He wrote this s aim. Ninety thirty, that use that are made to predictions. The first prediction was we're: gonna, be a lot rich

in the future right? If we don't make stupid mistakes like start another war or her eye syrupy during times of crisis, we did that anyone will be a lot richer and then we'll use wealth to work a little bit less each year, and then he just extrapolating set will have a fifteen. Our work week in two thousand thirty The fascinating thing again from the historical perspective is that up until the 70s you know we were on track to to make it another work week. Walsh ranking is drinking as ranking and the experts were predicting that the biggest challenge of the future was going to be boredom. It's only around one thousand nine hundred and eighty that you know throughout the developed. What we starting to working more and more and we ve been keeping on and then these jobs that don't really need to exist rights. Rights of people sitting in office is sending Cindy Also they two people they don't really like in writing before somebody once over energy. So that's what they that that the academic term, his bullshit jobs,

Yes, it's just like. Basically, you just sit there and then use like to whom it may concern reply all, as per my lost email, etc, etc. As that's for having my day within a the fascinating thing is, is that most of the Egypt? These jobs are people who have wonderful, resin. You know where the great universities and have wonderful job titles, but then still at the end of the day, this they're, like me,. I could go on strike and no one would notice. So in the book, I've got this story of two strikes that happened in. Yes, in the sixtys, the first strike was of garbage collectors New York. Next, ninety sixty eight losses for six days, state of emergency aid to be declared turns out. We can do without garbage collective rights. So at that point I wondered. Has it ever happened in history that the bankers my nostrils? So I started looking back to the past five thousand years. Basically, since the invention of money- and I found only-

an example, and this was in Ireland. Ninety seventy, the bankers, were, greed that their wages, we're not keeping up with inflation said is that you know what you have it: we're gonna go up, right and then you'll see just how important we are and all the experts are like this is gonna, be a desire, there's gonna, be heart attack for the economy and then, from one day to the other day. Eighty five send the money. Supply was not accessible anymore and nothing. Which happened? Actually, the strike lost for six months, indian and also six months, the bankers back and said all right or or I will get back to work, and I think this is another example Three just makes you re think who are there, wealth is right in this country. Is: does wealth really? You know it really created at the top and then there's a trickle down or maybe, the other way around and regard a teacher in the garbage collected in the nurses. Are they the real wealth creators, while ass, powerful men? Let me ask you this as a historian

if we don't take these concepts seriously, if we don't think about how we protect workers and not the jobs themselves, if we don't think about how to get people their fish of taxes, how we stop people avoiding tax which the huge issue: what who then worry, would happen based on history? Well, what I worry about the most is is about the moment. Some people just don't have hope anymore for for a better future right. So my frustration a couple of years ago, I started writing this book was that I see so many people in our young people people columns of progressive who only knew what there they were against rise against austerity against racism against homophobia against all these things, and yes, I'm against them as well. But you also have to know what you're actually for right and that's why I'm so excited that you see this whole movement now of indeed younger people who come up with all these fastened

any new idea, sometimes old ideas. Sometimes new ideas like that new deal? That's what excites me the most, because we need hope why thank you for being honest, Roma really haven't really fascinating rate is available. Now Russia, brilliant everybody, the deletion, with Trevor no ears additional subscribed to the daily show on Youtube for exclusive content and stream. Full episodes anytime. Paramount was now

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