I ram see solutions which the rams work that is done, cages gang in the pay of mortgage taking the place of the Bmw. Thus, now we are people build while they weren't they love and create an amazing relationships. George camel ramsay personality host of the fine print and the honorary leadership pod cash on remedy networks is miko approach. Today, open phones, a triple eight eight to five five to two.

Eric is with us in lansing, michigan, eirik. Eric welcome to the ramsey, show hello old, mr empty. It is an absolute sir. So thank you. Thank you. Everyone you speak with you and I thank you, or your backwoods hillbilly wisdom, because you changed. My family we've been debt free now for a little while now, so thank you very much, sir no man, so you own a house debt free white ago? Yes, I have a real estate question: I'm curious what thirty seven they would say so my in laws currently have two houses, one one in florida, winter in florida, so there's no birds, they know You want the maintenance and upkeep of the house, your in michigan, so they're selling it my wife and I ve been looking at purchasing a late house. So am I came to the proposition of gifting us fifty percent cast down payment! On a lake house,

the understanding is that they would live with us or live at the lake house during the summer months for three to four months, and The house would then be in our name solely. Do we in saving for a house. We don't obviously don't have. You know the other fifty per cent remaining, but I'm curious what your thoughts are around us wow, very generous of them. yes we we have a very good relationship, you're they're, going to give you how much money fifty per turn on. What is how much money is now well I I don't want to go over. Four hundred thousand total for the purchase. Okay, so they're gonna give you two hundred thousand dollars in return. They get to live in the lakehouse in the summer which, by the way Damn only time you can use it can you visit there? Can you visit your lake out in the summer? Get absolutely while they're there we're looking at you got, go up and put the boat in the water and all of you play in all of you. While they are living there in the summer, you'll be able to use it yes,

would be big enough for both of us to be there in the summer, and we would utilize it in the winter too, and you've got kids. A yes, sir, is there grandkids yeah and it's weed. I was right, I people, okay, show you but you don't have the other two hundred underground. No, not yet. Okay how how long before you have that It would probably take us he afforded I've years before, we got that, while practical before we like houses toy and I'm not goin in debt for a toy show and about my like else. Many many many many years ago. I didn't go in debt for it to torture, and so no no you don't you got that. Yeah, I I get it it's, it's wearing I guess so, my wife, I wake up one hundred and forty thousand a year. Any payments, so I'm gone. What does it look like

looking once we have one hundred grand and they can put in you know, but in one hundred and we start looking at more affordable options for like susan. If it's not the right one, then we keep waiting until we have the cash to do it and we can pony up. Fifty and fifty yeah, it's just really tough as far as getting something that we want in that price range at this point in time, but no, I I get where you're coming from. Is there any urgency around this? Now he just wants a lake, of course course? I went away who doesn't want to lay a grade? I agree I'm worthy uttering early on the three years of delaying this dream. We'll be you'll live right. Well, are our do it some other way, but here's the thing, because it because it's innocence they're putting the money on the table now and that's pushing the urgency to do it now and that and the fact that it's a cows and you're, getting half of the equity covered for you. It it seems low. not to borrow the money to do it, but I still am not going to borrow the money to do a toy Dude, I wouldn't do it.

ok. If I were you ask what I would do and on and I can bear I that I would not do that, because I did not do that. I said because you know again you're in Michigan. Your summers are short, the file. You got three four months to use a year and you and you can pay payments on it. Twelve months. Now I am I wouldn't do that now. What is these folks net worth? I have no clue well. If you are going to gash ten million a million, over a million, but I I don't know beyond that. Okay, so basic this money will be coming from the sale of their michigan house. Yeah, probably. Maybe they go by the lake house when they shall it

the one that you all agree that you want and delay you any you say. Okay, I'd like to lock in that I can buy it for half of that. I can save up the money in a few years. Meantime you know we'll all use it together. Right As you know, we were just looking at this is an option it was proposed and you know them down or if you want to hear in the summer it's a wonderful gift and a lot of things, but listen if you add up the payments on two thousand dollars for them, we have you're there hear their expense, if you go on some really nice vacations expensive. and so on. I, I want you to be able to figure out what to do it, but if it, if it involves you going to the dead I'm, I would not personally do that and I would not recommend it and I love the idea of you having a lakehouse. I love that I'm paying for half of it, of all these ideas, but am not ever going to tell someone going in for a toy and this is

so on. The real estate side, dave, if the inlaws by the lake house and he wants. To buy them out of it. What is the right way to do that later? They could just eat it over to lk hands on the truck for two okay gave four thousand or like out and agree. That when he hands him two the hand remedied deed you start seven, a steward gay about amount in a few years on the same the old, unplanned just gives me a lot of peace. when he I'm thinking papa, granny here have some money, but I could be wrong that they might be able to afford in cash. I dunno I dunno if they can or not if they're sitting on two or three four million dollar net worth four hundred, not going to kill him. They wouldn't plan on getting this anyway and so on, but it's now I know I would not tired of our money thanks, open phones at eight hundred and eighty eight, eight hundred and twenty five five thousand two hundred and twenty five.

She'll you get out of that once I got out of that, and I felt the freedom there wasn't anything like anybody but I had some temptations like he is at over the years. You know we are a bill. the first office, building that we had? We leased it for five years and I in the purchase it for five million dollars. When I did the deal, I didn't have any money, hardly I mean I had net worth by the nfl and I'm leasing it for five years or during at the time the building becomes worth about fourteen million wow and you still have the option to buy it for five million and for five years. I am at four years and some change and I'm scratching Nichols out of the corner of the couch, trying to get the five million together cause. I don't want to miss this. I was tempted to not walk away from

and I would say there was built into this option- deal to go borrow money. That's all euro area, borrowing money, I'm not borrow money. If it's a sign from god most was the habit of not only have the money to simple thing. For me, this is the rams. You share september, made sold out? pimento november, first sold out

that leaves minneapolis with a few tickets november, the tenth san antonio with a few tickets november fifteenth and we open an extra night for phoenix. We cannot extra nights in the other city. So when they're gone, they're gone but will be there September twelve for phoenix, and I we launched it a couple days ago. It's already half sold out so these things are going very very quickly. Ga these are while love of me and george and rachel cruze and rachel crews, and dr John doktor John. I will talk to you about what's going on in the economy, what you've got to do to build wealth, we'll have a pen- discussion will be signing books, taking pictures hanging out and These are all like three thousand person of ants type size or not trooper large or not like a rina events. Theater events, and but they do sell out very, very quickly and tickets rolling twenty five dollars and get a four pack starting at sixty bucks at ramsey solutions, dot, com, slash events

georgia is exciting. These are selling out. So fast, I now in the crowds have been amazing. My favorite part is just getting to meet people after the event and hear their stories, and I think it's a Some of the event is great. Yes, but people are also desperate to get out of the house and go to events again now, and it's been amazing to see the response to these. It's interesting, though, from our attendees perspective to be in audience of three thousand or four thousand people whatever it is all will there with the same goal, which is actually not taking it, for own destiny, building wealth so that you can. Generous and just a shared dream there, and so it's now like a mix of people who don't want to win who are victims or whatever it's all is like a pep rally for the stuff we do. firms and are upstream because culture, media they're telling people hey you can't win in this economy. You can't beat in full. Can you can't build wealth, you'll, never retire, and we're over here on our street corner just and going it's possible. You can do

stuff, ramsey solutions, dot, com, flash events get your tickets to these live events. We're also doing dallas the smart conference It is, I think, sixty five percent sold out for october twenty and already so. If you want gets to that as well. That's a day, long event with all of us, plus craig Amy groeschel speaking on marriage, this year, hello, miss weathers in Chicago high Helen welcomed. The ram show Where are you thank you so much for taking my call, I'm sure. What's I know and my question and we're ready to start the defense work. I didn't think I'm looking My retirement actions, I'm a teacher and what my this should provide are for three bees and forecast keep adding another wife options for bovine animals.

Sure which one to take for the roth option better than a traditional rate for four, oh yeah roth, is best and four o three b. People lama, something you ve got some good mutual fond options in the form of three be. If you looked at those wild They are a little webinar last night and then I got some information than that. They have a vanguard index. Five hundred, you have a lot of Did you have a lot of them that I hurt you? you got my mind, I'm on the package, and I do want to look into those as well good on they do have like purgative ones as well. I wouldn't do that. Okay, so We do have mutual funds right to straight up mutual funds, and we always tell you to put a fourth in each growth, growth and income, aggression, growth and international european be five hundred falls in the growth category. Show it's fine! That's!

one of your forward. Picky out a good international it'll be the worst performing of the four categories. Probably, when you look at the track record on it and aggression, growth or emerging markets, it also something like that and that will be the highest performing, but them volatile and the boring one will be the growth in income It's also sometimes called blue chip fund, or a large cap fund if you're aggressive growth is called a small cap fund? Oh okay, you Thank you. Congratulations! Tinashe to be yeah, it's a great place. If you go across those four types, george and and- and you pick ones that have good long track records, you will followed what we ve been teaching for thirty years and what the baby steps millionaires. The follow that caused them to become baby steps, millionaires and the third. Ranking career teacher dutch furs, daddy, that's exactly right

good point the salary girl she's on her way when we did the study of millionaires, we one of the things we found as we studied ten thousand millionaires, was that the young number one career most likely to be other showed up the most all. Among millionaires was engineer. Number two is accountant. Number three was teacher for was manager and five was lawyer. Doctors empties didn't make the top five. There were number six Are they busy doing spending money present people while docks obviously they make a lot of money. So a lot of er become millionaires but they're notorious for stupid financial decisions. I mean there are there like, like music artists or something just like teachers have get heads on. China fell players, I mean you know it's like our stuff, not quite that bad but yeah, but there there. Some doctor I thus has with it an arrogance that, because you're a medical doctor, you know something about everything.

and so they tend to make bad financial decisions instead of conservative tradition. The giant more adi, they can figure out some kind of risky investment now, so not all of them. But some do are down is whether in phoenix I down what's up oh now much day. Thank you for taking my call. I appreciate it sure. How can we help so you were just talking about doctors and and things. I am I page right now to get into dental school here in couple years and I'm trying to find out best ways to board and pay for dental school. We don't have enough saved. Obviously, to pay for that cash and number families are going to help us financially my wife and I

And I know the military is a great option if we can get into the military and do it through the branches at the great option, but I was wondering if have you had any idea. Are places where I could start looking to get some support there So how much is this going to cost based on your research? based on my research here in arizona, we don't have any public dental schools. So if I leave stay. I have to pay out of state tuition, so that raises tuition up. So the cheapest that I found, out of date, is about eighty thousand a year or dennis so you're. Looking at three hundred twenty, three hundred and fifty at a minimum for just tuition alone, much money. Do you have saved. right now we have led round fifty thousand in the bank. Ok, and what do you do for a living curly.

We were college jobs. I work at a amana, during early in the mornings and my wife life easier and undergrad, so you're, twenty three or twenty two. Yeah, I'm twenty three years old, they're cool! Well, here here's the problem. for some reason, and I really don't Oh, what the reason is someone closer to the subject. Probably could explain it to me dental school is more expensive than med school, which baffles the mind actually, but because dentist don't make more than mds make you know by and large. So, I cannot tell you in good conscience, having work with dentists for years in entree leadership, helping them with their practices, helping them with their business practices. Looking at these things,

I can't in good conscience, tell you to go for one thousand dollars or three thousand dollars in debt. To do this. I don't I wouldn't personally okay Is there a way to get at it? While you, like, you, said military's one another? is that there's a huge movement and dental in the dental world too, for corporate dentistry a lot of big companies, corporate conglomerates are buying up practices and some of those might have scholarship programmes they might have if you promise to work there or work for them for so many years. When you come out type of the thing I would trade out a few years after I get out for free dental school. If I could find a company that would do that. I don't know one to send you too, but there's a lot of movement in that direction. Be very, very careful with this is very dangerous.

The ram. She personally is my knowledge today in the lobby of ramsay solutions that can restage john enjoy or whether they guys now are you rate? hello dave. How are you better than I deserved to have you guys? Where do y'all live welcome to nashville how much we have paid off seventy six thousand dollars all right. How long did that take about three years

we have three years very cool and your range of income during that time, but why one hundred thousand dollars to about one hundred and ten cool we all do for a living. I was nineteen recently switched careers. to vocational instructor, I'll call for you, and I reckon cardiac rehab, oh god, Okay, great! What kind of debt was? Seventy six thousand everything you name it! turns mowers, trucks the whole snowman, so you were like Well, people normal normal in debt and got a good mower, you weren't. Even that we're out the homework and kept the payments. Bulgaria. The moment had ok! So what happened three years ago that was the wake up, call and how'd you get connected to this ramsay stuff yeah. We and Can the la hot water tank was the big one? It was a emergency unit wasn't planned for

I took a dive on us and we didn't have any means to pay for it, and it was you know just a hot water tank, but it was huge. You know. For us, an inquiry frankly, when you can provide hot water for your family kind, us a little something to your man card, you know and in your dignity. So set us off She said you were done with the credit cards. At that point you went, we don't have the money for life samaritan sees we gotta get on a plane round. The credit cards wouldn't even limit on us. that point cell house, you max out the cards so how'd you connected to us. At that point we had some friends there had mentioned an the system and not having credit cards, and when we got to that point of hitting rock bottom, we said: hey, let's, let's find out who that I was and see what we did and we got your book and we it together and

Instead of a thousand dollar margins, he found we were shooting for an eighteen hundred dollar murders. He found because we had no hot water taken some cold shower, so gotta put some purpose that plant some hard first virtual order of business does get hot water area. That's crazy! It's amazing so total money makeover book- I yes, yes and I got you started on the whole thing. and in three years you slog through it yeah yeah We do, though, no dash- and we did a little nearer- you know- grab sell me? You name it I mean kind of our date night. Sometimes darnassian. You make an extra three, an bucks, but At the end of the day, here we are- and it goes here so what was the hardest thing to get rid of that to sell or I mean for me: I'm spinner she's a nerd I sold a nineteen sixty seven,

guitar, acoustic, electric, the one that cool like a gifts or anything, but it was cool to me. You know a vintage get to see that gets me. I thought you're going to say it was a car and usually I go. I can get rid of that, but a guitar. That's that's tough for a musician, but it was worth the sacrifice, oh absolutely, yup. So what do you tell people? The key to getting out of debt is real bring the why and for me the. Why was that as the time of my life, where I was so afraid and nervous and anxious and like I was drowning in debt and ever want to go back there again and others the other that feel that way right now and I just want to reach our hand out to them and let him know you can do it we let our first f p fpu class this year, we even sponsored a couple we rebel to do that me. They were in the middle of an emergency when they started so It feels so good to be able to give back, that's the whole reason

goal and actually the more important than that we met god on the way climbing out of our it's very cool, getting and Without a? U very. How were proud of you? That's all the best part of the story. Right man, excellent excellent stuff. Amazing, so you're a good church. Now we are, what's your name, the church, fair when certain routes down a highly neat originate. Good job, good job, well because of a hot water, heater, yeah, hot water, god works in mysterious ways. I like it, that's great: did the kids get involved? Absolutely they each have their good saves, spent envelopes. Joey owns his own lawn care business and was able to buy his first car all by himself. What kind of car and the lexus I s

two fifty slow its own inuits, but we got that car. You gotta call a factor that that's a good car, very cool That does not provide free, long care for you that your question is not our mars has come last. Where final cassio awesome. You guys are heroes, wait again, excellent job, excellent job, ok, so the thing! want to make sure others tell people they can do it that there is hope and talk about the toughest moment in this whole process. Where was the toughest moment, at this moment for me was before we started was at the beginning of like not even knowing that your everywhere got a little better after one, I'm sure she's took control of once we sat down into a budget together. It was just relief like we had a plan

and we enjoyed our budget meetings. We did at weekly every friday night was a win for us and every every time that we had a victory. Every we paid off a loan. It was a celebration and that motivated us. It kept us motivated burger in india, you talking about I like, he gave himself a raise. Really do it's amazing when you start, putting your money to work for you! new being boss, rather than you know it being the boss of you how you can develop this or gain distraction around You know trying to get out of it. That's very cool alright now you're leading a financial peace class people here you paid off seventy six thousand box and they say how'd. You do that. What do you? The main couple things we need to do is: well, will know why she said for for me at

think the biggest single. Remembering your. Why remember? The hot water tank that took her crap on you, tryin to you know, make it right. for not only the moment, you're in, but also the long term out. for you and your family and and and it's self denial or denying yourself, you know, discipline discipline discipline is the perfect word for everyone around us has brand new cars. Ours are fifteen years old, so you know just this but free are free, beautiful, wonderful, unwilling, or proud of you, you guys are amazing and very very well done good words good words, a lot of a lot of people inspired by your story. He rose absolute heroes. Very well done, got a copy We stopped millionaires for you, that's the next chapter in your story, you're on your way out ordinary people. Extraordinary wealth how you can to and

a copy, total money makeover for you to give away to somebody you're going to run into somebody this week, probably problem. I go ahead and give you a one year subscription to our membership to financial peace, university and you'll be able to give worship somebody in the next class that way, if you learn as fun, yeah good stuff. Thanks for leading the class, we appreciate that very, very good yeah you'll be changing people's lives by doing that. It's important, important stuff you guys are impressive very well done- are at show Joseph and lexi are how old sixteen and twelve all very cool very well done. You guys are at john and joy, Joseph and c akron ohio. six thousand dollars in three years, making one hundred and hundred and sixty and the journey county down, missouri debt free three, two one,

what about gun canada down like a ban later, I was raised in practice and stop change. I am we train kids buying a car with god. He started his own business he's catch on this thing, rock stars, man. This is the ramsay show,

the our scripture of the day, psalm, one thirty nine. Sixteen you saw me before I was born every day of my life was recorded in your book. Every moment was laid out before a single day had patched mark twain said the two most important days in your life are the day you were born and the day you find out why goods George Campbell ramsey personality is my co host today bills in green bay. I bill. How are you thank you so why janeiro airlines looking for the most worthwhile places to donate money. Currently donate to our church and a couple of other organizations, but we

looking to make a bigger impact for a family, and we decided we'd like to donate money to a couple that we know to help them pay for college. Further fourteen year old, she goes to college in a few years and now we're friends with this couple, but not extremely close, and we feel This is an excellent place to donate money and have a big impact that child is as extreme potential, and my question is number one: what is a good way to sell this idea to them that I know that with no strings attached and aren't looking for any recognition, but I realized this: has the potential to seem off putting if we approach getting the long way. number two. If we do go through with this, what is the best way to go about it? just give him that much sex like an open, a five twenty nine plan were opened one ourselves. Are there any tax implications associated with this? What a big heart

way to go man. That's awesome! Thank you! So much money. Are we talking about donating to this child's college? Ten thousand good for you? Okay, all What I would do is contact a smart, vester pro and Get everything all set up, but don't open it, get it ready to go. Select the mutual fund out the five twenty nine plan get it. Shut up, you will, I wearing your shoes? I would list the parents as the custodian of the money, which means in charge of the money? Okay, and then I would take them to dinner. And just sit down and go okay. This is a little weird. This is just you know the best to keep something. That's awkward from being super awkward is just say it's awkward and that

takes the awkward power away right and this Strange I've never done anything like this. If I do this wrong, it could be off putting and just the exact same things you just said to me and, and Please people are psychotic, they are not be put off. There's gonna go why we are so grateful. Thank you so much for that The do that I mean. Do you know about their financial situation slightly arm. I think it is. This would be very grateful. I think, because for the child and for college. It feels different than hey you guys Well, some money to be less broke. This feels Do you care about this child in their future in Europe still mean into that china is apparent that it's hard to like someone, that's doing something nice for your kid, mad a generosity, especially for further child. That's it it's over

but I mean you you'd think I would just couch it. So listen, there's no strings attached, I've got it all set up. You will be in charge of the account as the custodian. I have not made that Posit and on the final stroke on the paperwork, but it's all set up with smart retro pro from rant that you know one of the people ramsey recommends. And I'd ten thousand dollars in a mutual fund, and then you're in charge of it and we're going to hand the paperwork over to you and we're walk away? And it's going to be under your control and got lots of suggestions and lots, ideas, but none of those are part of this deal. Ok, that sounds good. I I appreciate that I've had a great deal of anxiety about to approach this just say that out loud what now yeah kind understand cause it's not like, best friends. It's not like we're family members,

it's a little weird, but it's wonderful, weird well. Thank you, that's good, to hear down and that's that I think when you say that out loud, then everybody's not sitting around going. Ok. Why does this feel strange to me and no one's acting like a strange? You know. it is strange- but it's a wonderful strange show, but it takes them. The all the backwardness, coordination, the anxiety and all stuff goes away as soon as you say it out loud I said that sounds right. I hadn't thought of it that way, but that does make sense. Yeah, hey thanks for the comment. We appreciate one of these, the baby steps and thanks for being kind of generosity, everybody ought to be bill. I mean there there you go live like no one else. So later you can, I was in dollars and account for a kid. It's got big potential that you shorter no loud it that's called generosity right, dear boys and girls. That's a big time move at that

that's a pro hack right, that's inspiring! It makes me want to do that one day, yeah, it's very, very cool, very, very good stuff. Yeah anytime you're having many conversations or any other conversation that matter the chalkboard. When my kids were teenagers a thing they would do like awkward turtle, remember them, but that yeah and in they would just go ok, awkward turtle in this. This is we're conversation skating, intermission, blocker, turtles, applauded. I can't get over, I don't know how they did their hands, but it was like something like that and yeah and it was ghastly while, but I mean it does it's just like hey. This is always the ten or sometimes you know we're taking leaders to do, sit with someone where there's going to be a diff. Oh conversation: how to have difficult conversations and mobile things you can do when you have difficult conversation with a team member and you're saying as their leader you gonna hate. This is, difficult conversation get ready here we go and all I'll sudden it's a little bit

it's difficult, there's still some hard truth. There are still some things at the change for you to get to the h they work in here are still, you know, we're still going to have to be have some clarity and how to change and behaviors or whatever it is, but you're gonna know and you're not getting fired today, and but this is going to be tough, so you know. lemme buttercup. Here we go again All of a sudden, it takes some of the weirdness out of the air on those types of things Brian is weathers. Brian is in certain areas high. Oh, I Brian. How are you hey guys. How are you better than I How can we help wife and I are in the process of looking for a new house to buy I'm trying to figure out how much house you can afford. We make forty year be clear about seven thousand five hundred a month the owner house currently that we owe the keystone in thousand on the problem, So in round one eighty, how sweet the one nine in, but just a

I'm going outside with the other dead god. I wouldn't want your payment, we teach ok, you can qualify for more than we're going to tell you to do we have some conservative guidelines. George yeah we're. Looking at fifteen year, fixed rate mortgage a no more than a quarter of your take home pay, and then you can decide how much down payment that is obvious way to put down as much as possible and get a real Oh, how so once you start whatever the number is this a loan qualifies for based on that and the rates are probably but four and three slash four There are fifteen out of fifteen year fixture, look and probably close to five at this point and show you know please: She got one hundred twenty thousand bucks coming out this house right. Yes,

What can I ask you looking to get? Have you done the research in your area of what you will yeah we've done a little bit on the houses are going around like three fifty at holly, I'm thinking the top of our budget or too much, but that's means we're looking at just for an upgrade we're looking to I want to make lateral move to a nice. Neighborhoods changed sides ass. When you send your take our seventy five hundred. we look at it ain T. Seventy five would be kind of your top limit saunders crunch numbers here and I'm going. Ok will attain seventy five. You primate put down one hundred eighty grand on three and thousand dollar home. In order to do this and I haven't done too much: you're, probably buying a three hundred and twenty thousand dollar house. Instead of a what the numbers were got her. Something like this way, just our expectations or we save longer now give or take a little bit. Did you got it? wanting to put down on your house. Unless you got some other monies to boot with it, you might have, but again a fourth of your take home pay in payment on a

fifteen fixed- and that keeps you from having bit off

how much house that you can't fool around, get it paid off. We want the margin in your budget, so you can get it done. Good. Our george! Well thanks dave, Weldon Kelly, Andrew zach ben Austin, all the team in the booth. I am dave ramsey. Your host will be back with you before you know it in the meantime. Remember, there's ultimately only one way to financial peace and that is to walk daily with the prince of peace Christ. Jesus the do you love a good day. Brands want to see the latest ramsey show videos going viral check out your favorite moments from the ramsey show on youtube, go watch and subscribe to the ramsey show channel and the. If you enjoy this podcast, you should check out other great podcasts from the ramsay network like borrowed future, not so fun fact. America has a one point: six trillion dollar student loan crisis and it's out of control. I'm george camel host of the borrowed future podcast, where we uncover the underbelly of the student loan industry and show you what you can do about it. It'll inspire you to see that it is possible to avoid student loans and graduate college debt free, listen to borrowed future wherever you listen to podcasts, hey, it's james producer of the ramsey show. This episode is over but check the episode notes for links to products and services you heard about during this episode, thanks for listening