I've, been getting more and more emails from from you some people in the audience where folks are increasingly confused about Is Russia making progress? Is Russia going to be taking over Ukraine or Russia losing because anecdotally. We have, for example, what we're going to start with today. The story of Russia seizing the first major ukrainian city, which would suggest, while you it does seem as though Russia's ultimately going to take Ukraine, but at the same I'm. There are widespread reports of russian soldiers breaking down crying surrendering in Ukraine calling mommy. Quite literally, I mean soldiers just calling their moms and how could both be true in the way that both can be true

is that, on the one hand, rush His military is so dramatically larger and more powerful than that of Ukraine. That there's some feeling of almost inevitable it is to the ability of shouldn't make progress into Ukraine, but at the same time individually, there are soldiers, groups of soldiers that dont want to be there that dont want to do what they have been sent to do an arduous baling and both can be true, because the conflict is becoming so widespread and more than one thing can happen at the same time, so bear them. In mind, as we talk about this first headline, the BBC boarding, russian troops have taken control of the key city of. care son and this is considered. The first quote: major city taken control of by Russia close to three hundred thousand people. So I got a massive

propolis, but certainly not a small town BBC, reporting russian forces have seized control of a key port city in southern Ukraine. Kaerusson is the fur major city taken by Russia after heavy fighting. Now one week into the invasion. Its mayor, Igor colleagues, have colleagues have said russian troops forced their way into the City council building and have now imposed a curfew on residence so that the city appears to truly been taken in the literal sense of the word, several cities are under intense shelling, Wednesday, was one of the most destructive days of the fighting an investigation into power. Civil war crimes and crimes against humanity has been launched in the icy see. We talked about that request. to earlier this week, Russia has, for the first time, admitted taking heavy military casualties four hundred, ninety eight troops killed sixteen hundred injured. Now this this number is not a small detail for us,

Worse, as overwhelming as that of of Russia's is relative to Ukraine's the fact that in a week five hundred there admitted five hundred of died and remember what they admit and the full scope of it. Maybe two different things: there admitting to almost one hundred dead a day now dispute and care about that. Probably not, but that is not an insignificant number based on the military analyses that I've seen now. One other thing I want to point to hear that is important in a facebook posts, MR colleague who's. The mayor of her son said russian forces were in control of the city. He urged russian soldiers not to shoot at civilians, saying there no ukrainian forces in the city and increasingly, and, as I have said to you guys before we are when things are moving so quickly. It can be difficult to know what's true and what's not true

There are now regularly claims of russian aggression against just random civilians, in multiple, Sensors- and here the mayor is coming out and saying with their just. There are no soldiers hear anybody you see is a civilian. Please don't shoot anybody now. The counter that right, has already started is well, there have been numerous call. for a week now for any able, bodied individual to take up arms, and so the fact that they civilians doesn't mean they are a guard or that they dont present a threat to russian troops that the counter? But the mayor, of course on saying. There's no troops here, please don't shoot severely. since, and the belief is that indeed, civilians have been killed, that, as we told you earlier this week, a kindergarten was bombed, an orphanage was bombed, etc. That's the delay,

is there there is this. You know when we imagine the sort of prototypical these state kind of military rule. Some of these elements are in place. The Conditions set by russian forces include a curfew from eight p m to six a m We going out and groups of two and allowing only cars food medicine and supplies to enter the city driving slowly. So this is quickly quickly taking the ambulance at that time. That term does not seem strong enough, but the ambience of a military police state and but tomorrow on the programme. For those saying how long could this go on? Could this be over in five days? Could this be and the the answers are both yes, but there are now reports from who s in America? U S in british intelligence and forty four,

ministries that this could be a ten to twenty year conflict. Now that doesn't mean it would be like this for twenty years, but that it could be one of these protracted conflict, and I will talk about that on tomorrow's programme. so we talked about some elements of this seem like Russia is pushing to take Ukraine and that ultimately will be able to in its a matter of when. Not, if that that's the earlier story, we did about Russia seizing its first major ukrainian city, her son. We now have to do about the numerous stories that have been published and videos that have been published, so we know that this is happening of crying russian soldiers surrendering, all over Ukraine, and these are legitimate, believable stories, business insider some russian troops surrendering to ukrainian forces without a fight. Is morale? Drops? U S. Defence official says somewhere in troops have been surrendering to ukrainian forces with no fight the senior

fischler said the russian military appears to be risk, averse the official, said among Russia's military. Are young draft ease who have never faced combat? You ve seen it on that were units are surrendering sometimes without a fight, and they ve got a lot. These soldiers are conscripts, never been in combat before some of whom we we weren't, even told they were going to be in combat so words. seeing evidence of a bit of risk aversion, Russia's troops also struggling with fuel and sustain meant issues, and we ve. We talked about that on yesterday's bonus. Show this convoy of tanks, which we will talk about again on today's bonus, show real heartedly moving, is as slowly as three miles per day partially, because the I have a lack of food and the tanks have a lack of gas and, if that's the cat Obviously. We would welcome that. That being said, this official says they will regroup, they will adjust, they will change their tactics. Another report captured russian soldier breaks down,

tears after being humiliated by Ukrainians, russian soldier was filmed crying while being here led by Ukrainians as the war following Russia's invasion rages on during the vote oh, the soldier is seen sitting some steps on some steps, sobbing, with space in his palms. At the same time, a few people standing in front of him ass, a herd swearing in ukrainian picture and videos showing russian soldiers captured by Ukraine have been posted all over the place. So how could both of these things be true how good? On the one hand, Russia's forces be oh well, being and taking cities, and by by some indications, almost inevitably ultimately to take over Ukraine, and yet there are soldiers crying well it's because at the end of to a level. Many of these soldiers are completely demoralized and, as the article says, some weren't told that they would be facing combat. Many have never to combat and all of a sudden they are there and they are just baling at the same time, the forces

are so large russian military forces that, even if you ve got hunter of demoralized troops, saying what the hell am I doing here I want to go home. Let me call my mom. There are enough, still continue overwhelming ukrainian cities. There's one. video here of and this eat, there's example of everything. This is a surrendered russian soldier being did well being given food being given drinks and allowed to quite litter. We call mommy and I'm not saying that in a pejorative way. Ebby. Does it we'll talk about almost kids here who are just being sent in to fight about all many of them. Don't want to fight in that. Very few people actually understand. Take a look at this again, Are you going Why is it like? It is,

ok- and I understand that the audio alone, unless you speak Ukrainian and or Russian, is not super relevant. But there is an individual here believe to be a russian soldier who is drinking, what appears to be t being handed food and skyping skyping with his mom and being helped to do so by Ukrainians, and of course this doesn't mean that there are examples of anything you can imagine taking place. But a very interesting moment, and the question increasingly is like who really wants to be doing? This are even our are even the the russian forces who were not surrendering thrilled about this mission, and A lot of these videos kind of tell us a lot about

not only what is going on and lighted it. They say a lot about the ukrainian people and many when russian soldiers say hey. You know what I give up. I don't want to be here, and I want to do this. They are treated well, but just about the dynamics on the ground and its it, which is heartbreaking, quite frankly, at the same time that such horrible things are being done, but at the top level by Putin and others. A lot of soldiers, and this is not different than in the United States, and you could say that the predatory nature military recruiting in the U S also makes victims out of a lot of these young people, those who got sucked into the war in Iraq and of having listened it. It's not used to most people at our audience. There is a lot of a victim hood a real victimhood, an damn. It is disturbing to see an down when these, when these things take place like this, where the very bodies has hey. You know what none of us want, this, let's

sort of relate to each other as humans. Nice moments, although, unfortunately they don't change russian policy and Putin seems determined to keep going at least for the time being we have so much more on today's show. You can find me on Twitter, it department, and let me know how long do you think this is going to continue. We have so much more discuss right after the short break, one of our sponsors is called privacy. Privacy is a totally free service that I've been using for years. Privacy lets me create virtual payment cards with one click, and when I use the virtual card the money is taken out of my bank account. You can create multiple cards, delete them freeze them set of spending limit on them. Let's say I'm signing up for a free trial and it requires a credit card privacy, will Otto fill a virtual card amber and then after signing up, I can delete that virtual

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I believe the normal? A membership rates are very reasonable, but if you'd like a discount, you can use that code wow, twenty two to safe, major breaking news. Last night, and that is that the January Sixth committee invest The gaining the Trump riots has now laid out in clear terms: the possible an old charges against Donald Trump? Now remember? They can't bring an old charges? These are members of the house. They have invest the gate of powers. It is up to the Justice Department COM, Lee guided by attorney general merit Garland to decide, are we bringing Rental charges or not. But there was this open question for a very long time. Would the astrogation point to criminal charges against him, tromp and the answer now is yes and of course the million dollar question is. Is there a prosecutor willing

to bring charges against a former president. So will start with a New York Times. Article January six committee lays out potential criminal charges against Trump a court filing. The panel said there was enough evidence to suggest TAT might have engaged in a criminal conspiracy as he fell, to remain in office. These are such strange times, where outrage These things are normalized things that would have been unfair the bullet times past five of them happen in a week and we just I dont react. This is not normal This is a really big deal. Not only is there a committee investigating right. its incited by a former president desperate to keep his grip on power on January six, twenty twenty one, but they leave that he may have engaged in criminal conspiracy, the House Committee investigating the riots.

Said there is enough evidence to conclude former President Donald and some of his allies might have conspired to commit fraud and obstruction. By misleading Americans, about the outcome of the election and attempting to returned the result. This is a big big deal in Port filing in a civil case in California. the committee's lawyers for the first time laid out their theory of a petition. Show criminal case against Donald Trump. They said had accumulated evidence demonstrating that trump. The can. Servitor lawyer, John Eastman and other allies could potentially be charged with criminal violations, including obstructing, and she'll proceeding of Congress and can spirits see to defraud the american people. The fight He also said the men might have broken a common law statute against fraud through Trump

repeated lies that the election had been stolen, still had been stolen. The island disclosed only limited new evidence. The committee asked the judge in the civil case, to review the material behind closed doors. This is insane. in asserting the potential for criminality. The committee largely relied on the extensive and detailed accounts already made public of the actions. Prompt and his allies took to keep him in office after defeat. CBS reporting house January six committee says it has evidence trumpet allies engaged in quote criminal conspiracy, the House Select Committee investigating the riots said in a court file it has evidence trumpet allies engaged in a criminal conspiracy by trying to block Congress from Sir, find the election. This is the first time the committee, has laid out a potential criminal case against Donald Trump. This significant moment in the investigation, because it includes rare disk, you're. A findings excerpts from depositions in interviews with witnesses, including

pens top adviser former justice too, I'm leaders and those close to Trump Newsweek donald- could face criminal charges after explosive John Eastman emails revealed. Member Johnny spends this lawyer, who laid out what you're radical framework for trying to flip the results of the election. This is not normal, but and I know I'm getting now. Dozens of emails and boy smells from viewers and listeners every day David. Do you still think Trump won't go to prison? Yes, yes, I do and people who say David when you say that it makes it less likely he will go to present now, I'm a random guy with a microphone I know, but no potential prosecutor cares what I am saying it doesn't make any difference. We have a situation here were think of the steps. First, There has to be some prosecutor willing to be the first to charge. Donald Trump, a former president already takes a lot and

it doesn't seem. Merrick. Ireland is going to be that guy we ve talked about southern district of New York. We ve talked about Manhattan District attorney. We ve talked about Georgia are any of these prosecutors willing to be the first. I dont deny that if one prosecutor filed charges more would fall, I believe there would. I believe that there are many products. Is willing to be the second prosecutor or the third prosecutor to file charges against him, I'm not seeing any evidence. Anyone is willing to be the first. If you did see that in almost Ninety nine percent of these types of cases you dont get trial you get Some kind of a plea you get charges being dropped me things got complicated, etc. If you a trial, necessarily get a guilty verdict. If you get a guilty verdict, you almost certainly don't prison time so think about the number of steps here. So yes, if you want my opinion and that's all it is, I dont think trumped as a day in prison,

will we see charges at some point- maybe that's far more likely than prison time, but that is still my belief at this point in time. If you disagree with me Let me now I've been on believable clip free today done from was interviewed yesterday by Fox NEWS propaganda, Maria Part, a who has gone from being applied, good and respectable finance and economic journalist fifteen years twenty years ago to being a Brown knows or on Fox news. The ultimate Trump Brown knows, or allowing unhinge spirits, he theories to be spread on her programmes over the last year, more a border, Romo Interview, Donald Trump, and it might not shock you to hear Donald Trump now says the ukrainians are only even putting up a fight thanks to weapons. I gave them now. You might ve here that in Safeway, David, Sir, aren't those the weapons he d laid giving to Ukraine, because you,

endured on Biden and the answer is yes hit- is exactly those weapons but Donald Trump in the period of eight days has gone from Putin is savvy genius and smart for what he's doing with Ukraine taking great property in Ukraine to actually Putin's not good. This wouldn't have happened under above the hidden stapletons, not good. We said this would have happened under my watch. To now saying Ukraine should be thanking me that their even putting up because they're using the weapons I gave them. Listen to this delusional one. Eighty by the the translation here. The five second version of this clip is me me me me me me me: that's the that that's the summary good. Now Russia is gotten in deeper than they ever thought possible. So they would Frankly, I think they probably would be right now in a good position did something, was, I think, they're in much deeper than they thought to a certain extent, because it, though the weapons that I gave and that the Ukrainians used so well,

I mean do you so well. Amazing in I think right here is something to be and with them right now, because in that way what does it look? You showed they are looking at what they have to be asked. Work out a deal. They have to stop killing these people that killing all these people, and that is that they have to stop it now, but that our respect the United States and the United States is like. I don't know that doing anything about it, so these are really inspirational for policy assessments from Donald Trump, so, yes, I'm saying thanks to the weapons I initially withheld, while I attempted to extort Zalewski, that's that's what, if That's the translation here thanks to them, weapons originally withheld for the extortion I attempted, but was also we sort of pressured into giving Ukraine because things but up and Alexander Vehement testified in all that stuff.

Thanks to those weapons, Ukraine now is to some degree resisting russian aggression aid. It is out of this world guys completely out of this world. He withheld military aid because you wanted to Lansky to get him debt dirt on Joe Biden Open an investigation and the. whistle was blown it wasn't, a perfect phone call release the aid he got impeached on on and on and had it now blown up in his face. I mean real understated understand the scope of that when we go How can we remember? Ok, he withheld the aid, but then he if it to them, but why did you give it to them? He gave it to them because things exploded and people found about what he was doing here. Then men not blow the whistle had everything that happened not happened. Ukraine, would not likely have gotten those weapons or or certain, certainly not in any kind of reasonable amount of time, and so, thanks to the p who blew the whistle over what tromp was doing to extort Ukraine, Ukraine got some of those weapons, and, of course you couldn't it. It's all

extraordinarily self centered, because the truth is Ukraine now has received weapons and military aid from countries all over the world. And additionally from the Biden administration, so even even taken at its face. What trumpets saying is absurd, but ever things somehow is about him too? was so scared of them that he didn't do this while Tromp was president the Weapons Ukraine is fighting, whether thanks to Trump everything is Trump. It's me me me, and unfortunately, you look at interviews with trumpets. Many of them have fallen for this stuff. Ok, one other quick story here, we now have an actual Paul. What people think of Joe Biden. First, official state of the union address on Tuesday. Remember I gave it to be, and I thought there were some good parts and some not so good parts, almost eighty percent of those who watched it, believed that Joe Biden, was on point and approve of his remarks that this is uprising even to me, quite frankly, nearly eight

in ten of state of the union, watchers approve of Joe Biden remarks. seventy eight percent. In a new Cbs yoga Paul said that they approve of Abiden remarks. Twenty two percent disapproved, though surveys surveyed were also asked to check all of the feelings that applied to them and many they came away with positive feeling. Sixty seven percent said they were optimistic. Fifty percent said they felt proud only they percent said they were pessimistic and thirteen percent angry. Now you have to consider that it is. This is of people who watched and quite certainly because its democratic president, more of those who watched may indeed be Democrats but there is also a CNN pole conducted by assess our ass, which said seventy one percent had a positive reaction. Although again, friendlier audiences, more Democrats and Republicans tend to be attracted to these speeches. A couple of different notes: your number one, some of these in

the poles online here, the water right Wingers was a wow. Look at this Eddie. Only forty eight percent liked the speech under stand that those in the poles are worth the gum. The butler pre, pre chewed gum on the bottom of your shoe, the really worth nothing. anybody, whether you saw the speech or not, can weigh in and even people who might have thought the speech was ok, we'll just lie on those those are notoriously not accurate. We really should be looking at actual polling couple different thoughts, one there, maybe a little bit of a rally around the fly going on the ukrainian flock, and we in general approval for President's and approval for speeches, These tend to be higher when there is such a conflict, in this case its conflict elsewhere. But it's one that most of the world is united in terms of who should we be supporting here, and that was the strongest of Biden Speech the part about Ukraine, so that may certainly be a factor. The other thing is its eye.

always liked to be reminded that my interpretation, of these things is very different than people who don't follow the stuff as closely I think it's a good reminder for all of us. Cuz even people who listen to shows like mine are probably not like the average and that most people don't listen to political stuff or follow politics, Yes, you do who, if you're, watching this clipper listening today, you are not likely the sort of average person and although I gave it to be and thought it had on a week, moments Clearly, those who watched it had a much better impression. I think that that's interesting for us to keep in mind particularly interesting, I mean listen. I gave it a b and that it had some good parts. People eventually, Oh said this is essentially the worst speech ever it is pathetic. It was out of touch it was filled with lies and rambling and Biden was confused. Didn't know what was going on very few people who watched it came away with that impression

a lot of the focus on line has been oh Biden meant to say Ukrainian and he said a, but the average person who watched it is not even thinking about that and that's an important reminder. Forests as well, so a well received speech. The core to now will be and Monday will look at. This does Joe by The UN's approval rating recover, because its essentially at his presidency low will. Will this speech help him recover? We will see we'll have clips These segments on our instagram, which you can find at David Pachmann, show. One of our sponsors is blink. Who's been supporting the David Pachmann show longer than any other sponsor blink, as does the apt that lets you listen to or reed an entire nonfiction book, and just fifteen minutes blinking

That is the way to absorb those books. You can't make time for blinkers, takes top none action. Titles pulls out the books key, take a ways and insights and give it to you in the form of a text or audio, explain or that you can consume in fifteen minutes with blinking. Now you actually do have time to learn about all the things you ve been wanting to tackle on the blinkers app. I just listened to this. Is your mind on plants by the great Michael Pollen soup were interesting. The history of caffeine, and so many other things blink is too. As you covered on podcast to link is takes long. Episodes of popular pod casts and destroyed. Them into audio. You can listen to and fifteen minutes with blinkers and become knowledgeable about so many different things you can conversations with people about more topics. Blinkers makes you more well rounded, try blink IST for free and get

twenty five percent off a subscription go to blinkers stock. Slash pachmann. The link is in the podcast notes. Today, we're gonna be speak with Kelly, while whose journalists that the daily beast, where she covers extremism, disinformation and the internet. Also, author of off the edge flat Earthenwares conspiracy, culture, why people will believe anything, a Kelly really good Have you on today, thanks for having me so I want to get a little bit too the resurgence of flatter, specifically, because I think it's an interesting kind of window into a lot of the stuff that you cover. But if we assume out a little bit, you know what I've seen gone to both extremists in those who cover extremists? Often they say that the folks most likely to fall into these types of beliefs and generally are folks with. On the one hand, certain personality characteristics, but, on the other hand, with backgrounds that are often about not having.

Something that they feel a sense of belonging towards, and sometimes this relates to parenting. Sometimes this relates to communities or bullying in school or the these sort of types of things What's your sense covering this? and researching it about what makes folks more law. We too, as you say the title but believe anything I mean there are a few factors in one thing that I have to flag is there were all susceptible to conspiratorial. Thinking, to some degree, is not some weird thing that can, via hat people, do it really emerges when we feel like we don't have enough information or the information we have is a comforting process. It doesnt reaffirm our priors but you're right and bring up that sort of sense of isolation, be as one of the things that people go looking for when they seek out flat earth or another conspiracy. Theory is a sense of belonging as a sense of community

Conspiracy theories often work in his weirdly team based way it become servant, ups, verses them mentality, where your either on the inside of this small community. That says it has all. The answers in the world is out to get us or you're on the other side in by definition, evil, undone, scheming, So I think those communities are very alluring for people who both want community and what answers suddenly repackaging them in a way that, I think, is it's it's very appealing for certain people. The comfort thing is interesting because one of the one of the characteristics not not flatter specifically, but of some other conspiracy theories, including that random and were actually planned. What seems to underlie it is that it's really stressful to think or to believe that right random bad things happen that you couldn't possibly protect yourself.

And that sort of a matter of chance whether you personally are affected by something or not. It seems that some people get comfort from believing it was planned, and at least some people knew exactly when and how this was going to happen. Yeah and it's weird thing? What's comforting for certain people, because if you told me that you have, there is a whole bunch of evil doers in a dark room scheming. All these events is actually the opposite of comforting to heed the little distressing, but for some people, that's than the idea of pure care lower, and they often make it very theological. You know they don't like the idea that there's nobody looking out for them in detail is back to flat earth one of the best reasonings I've heard for someone. Getting into flatter theory, is they believed the earth is like the university Small, this little Flattereth contained under a snow glow, basically, and she said that she didn't like the idea that the universe was so big and so

random and issues is little point in it and when she compressed all beat I'm no no one's into this again, really small snow globe that you realise that she was special and she had a place in me, ever since I know that explains a well, but I bet you you write about how there was actually a flutter of movement in the eighteen thirties and I think many people might. Say. Well, yeah. We just knew a lot less than, but but actually eighteen thirty one was not the start of when we started to realize that that the spherical earth is actually what it is. Can you talk a little bit about kind of what lead that movement and what the police were based on?

totally so you're right. I mean we ve known for more than two thousand years now that earth is rounded it's because is actually pretty easy to prove old. Tommy mathematicians agrees in Egypt were doing this. For ages, what happened in the eating thirtieth eighteen forties was, it was a time of upheaval was a time technological and scientific revolution. That is when people go looking for alternative answers and adds new ideas on science and evolution were forcing religion to take the back seat and a lot of people's minds. People started looking for reasons to discount science and fled

Earth emerged from this really wacky character is a failed communist leader. He sold on fake medical cures for a while. He had this theory bed because breath looks flat and must be flat, and not only that, but it's that scientists are actively colluding to hide the reality from you. So for people who ends up out of new fields, science. This was the golden ticket right and when we think about the resurgence of fluttered like over the last six to ten years, it's interesting We have so many more technological means available to us now in so many different ways to too easily prove that the earth is not flat and yet it it has still research. But on a sort of different basis, right

Absolutely you know it's funny for about two hundred years now we ve been watching flatter. There's come up with new reasons to discard new scientific evidence in the during the space phrase, flatter there's had to contend with ok wire, the pictures of earth from outside earth. If we're all, underneath this snow blood and increasingly unseen people not really try to contend with the evidence at all, but say that any new conflicting evidence is actually proof of a scheme against limits its fabric hey did its are there to deceive them. So one thing is that this theory and many other conspiracy theories are not really about the prove ability, you're, the believe ability, thereabout people's willingness to believe against all odds. And when you get that kind of motivated reasoning, it becomes really easy to just check out of it.

It's that you don't like. You know in the past, when, when I've interviewed experts on conspiracy, ism and conspiratorial thinking, often we've kind of start from the point of flat earth being one of the benign non empirically based sort. Conspiratorial beliefs and that it might eggs in a sort of isolated, benign space. But many of these folks, who study. This say well, rarely do people just have one of these beliefs, and so there is really more than random overlap between Like Flattereth beliefs, Illuminati one world government he semitic, beliefs, attitude or that that all these different things are linked more than you would expect by random chance, and so, while flatters specifically might sort of, benign. It's often the same types of folks that go to the letter of conferences that that are doing some of the other stuff. Do you

I agree with, that assessment disagree with it partially agree. I absolutely agree- and I think it's getting worse to- I started following clatter of around twenty seventeen, and even at that time I thought it was a little bit more silos. I didn't see so much interchange with other conspiracy theories, whereas now I see a lot more active networking What would have been a purely flattereth facebook page? Twenty seventeen is now sharing a lot of covert disempower I've been he veiled q and on- and you know it does make sense in a way because if you believe in I think so literally world, encompassing as flat earth you're, not gonna, believe that every other established reality holds true out flattered lets. You just knocked down on the facts and build your own, and so it's very easy for people to draw on preexisting conspiracy theories in your right to note that a lot

anti semitic or equal and nature. One of the interesting things about flutter earth is theirs. There's this kind of common belief, which I think is borne out by the studies witches. You can't just give facts to folks who believe certain things at an and sometimes the more facts you give them the more they actually resist changing their perspective and the interesting thing in that context about flat earth is that the they have rebuttals to just about every input

reported rebuttals. I think I should say to just about every empirical claim that you can present to them with data and with facts and and with observation, and so it's sort of like the perfect experiment as to what does get folks to revise their beliefs when it comes to people who were flatter authors, but were disabused of those believes what has worked effectively. What has worked with the Ex flatter affairs that I've spoken to, if not exactly, debate, because I can keep on debates, they digging took our own arm a week's they'll double down. They don't want to be proven wrong. What I've found has helped in the limited cases and DE conversions, because I think people makes me Wellington thinking. There is then had compassionate discussions with Round Arthur its people, who aren't here to believe

them or approve them wrong, or have one of these awful I'll Youtube, wives, stream debates but say ok? Why did you come to this belief and know what emotionally is motivating you to do this? And what can we do? This observable to you, you know: can we go watch the sunset over the HORIZON mother help in that kind of compassionate exchange, one that takes into account the humanity of the person that you're trying to talk to him. The emotional needs, the dragons conspiracy theories. Often, I think, is a lot more fruitful. Then the sun, this belittling or keep using the term team based, but its conspiracy theories, are very team basin. If we turn it into an auspicious them debated, it follows that that's not gonna hurt somebody watered VM motives that flatter throws believe,

splain. Why the powers that be so to speak would want folks believing that the earth is actually spherical when its flat. That's really tough one as one that Ask a lot of flatterers and I get a range of answers and quite a lot of people say I don't really know I mean be upsetting answers. A lot of people will say something pretty good symmetric for use until, even though like why would the Jews benefit from the earth really being flat? But people thinking, it's spiritual. I gotta know an hour right right. I mean you know I in none of these theories. is there a goes back and building on centuries of kings? territorial frameworks. None of them actually hold up is no reason and religious group want to disguise the earth's shape, but you know that don't make those callback pseudo use and made it more veil, the Illuminati, the new world order, notes

that maybe we are that the powers that be want to downplay the role of religion in the world who want to keep people confused or the best answer ever got was this guy, so platter has generally don't leave in outer space and the skies like well. What I think is going on is they wanted. The raven stakes Sunday want us to believe an alien and so that, when Jesus comes down again, Well think he's an area or kill him. So the does a hearty trusted talk, someone out of a mean, that's the creative out it. Oh, that was really Roscoe's. Immediate clearly thought about this for much longer than I was ever going, but belonging, Short of it? Is people are really willing to believe this theory, and sometimes these specifics, or even the motivation, come secondary can you talk a little bit about social media platforms? algorithms like on Facebook and Youtube, and specifically like with flat I Many in my audience generally understand content

Merci does better Al Gore rhythmically. So then in general platforms will share articles that are negative device. If etc, with no regard for whether they are accurate or not. But what what are we seeing about these algorithms, specifically with flatter? Why on earth has formed really really well historically and social media algorithms, especially on Youtube. There's a carry from about twenty four team. Did twenty nineteen one Flattereth videos got this massive artificial, boosting the reason is I mean you to visit company, they want to make money and they make money from you. Staying on the site watching videos, and so because the latter through something that I am guilty of, the two everybody clicks on two in the morning on those videos performed very well growth, Mc Lean and people will get recommended them, even if they weren't seeking them out. So you did changes algorithm after tons of criticism by twenty nineteen, but the facts,

stands for five years is, was are really just like open fire hose flatter info into unsuspecting people speak a lush thing I wanted to talk about. Can you talk a little bit about in the in the culture in the landscape right now of conspiracy? theories and sort of extremists, beliefs, water maybe some less known things that are may be coming up, I mean I think, Q and, on my audience, knows about flatter earth. Election stolen vaccines killing millions, but nobody today that some of the obvious ones- I think my audiences is aware, but is there anything kind of like up and coming that your tracking and the question is always like whether to talk about it. If its up and coming right, you know, I think to put it in a different way. I mean there are always fringe theories on the up. What I think is different now is the their embrace in broad mainstream.

public in politics, so whereas Q NOME with something that was now on its face completely absurd and arranged? And now we're seeing, is much more a wholesale embrace, a things like election concerned, the various by the republican Party- and you know it's much as I will criticise things for like social media, for the wrong promoting conspiracy theories. This, I think, is uncharted or recently chartered territory, human rights, which the Republican Party has participated, exactly me and their role in promoting it and their role in normal. I said, and I think that is pretty dangerous in as much as you know we can Rwanda Youtube's in facebooks for promoting the simple. This is an integral part of american politics and it is just diving all the way a conspiracy varies. Do you have an opinion as to for how long will they continue with the?

Evidence is just about to come out at me because it we're we're at fifteen months now Rudy Giuliani and try- and I mean they continue to say- we were about to get the stuff from georgia- were about to get the stuff. American What does this have a long life ahead of it? You think I think it does, but not because they're gonna keep claiming the evidence is coming out. It's like for earth, where the evidence doesn't really matter, is an emotional appeal right. So after they see this narrative for so long. It doesn't really matter that they keep getting this prudent because people believe it there's enough of this saturation of a story that people want to believe in. By that point of already, you know taken down love voting sites and predominantly black neighborhoods aria pass legislation that makes difficult, descended, absentee bells, and that, I think, is like the real, tangible risk of this conspiracy. Theorizing enables things that are very real.

the at this point, it's almost like their signalling their membership in a team by repeating that, rather than we literally or waiting around for the evidence, totally if only their awaiting around his mean they'll be doing that My dying for a very long time, Kelly, while is a journalist at the daily beast. The book is off the edge flatter thirst. spirits he culture and why people will believe anything Kelly. I really appreciate your time, thanks for having me. Science has shown us that lowering your body temperature at night helps you sleep. I can't sleep hot room, that's why I love our sponsor Chile. Sleep, which makes customizable climate controlled sleep solutions to sleep better, their flagship products are the Uller sleep system and a cue Sleep system, which is what I have been their hydro powered temperature controlled luxury, mattress pads, you can make them as cold as fifty five degrees Fahrenheit

if you wanted you could go, is hot, is a hundred and fifty degrees. I like the cooler option. I keep mine at sixty degrees and it gives me a great cool night of sleep, no feeling how no more sweating, I'm falling asleep, faster and at Paris perfectly with Chile, sleep I waited a chilly blanket which keeps you called on top to end for a limited time. Chile, sleep has a special offer. Just for my audience. Go to Chile, sleep, dot, com, Slash Pachmann, to learn about the exclusive discount. The link is in the podcast notes all right. Let's do a little bit of follow up about what is the most disgusting moment during any state of the union. Address that I can remember, and at this point this is unimportant story, because it wasn't just that Lauren Buber heckled Joe Biden during the state of the union and at work

in just that: Lauren Buber, radical republican congresswoman heckled Joe Biden when Biden was taught about his son who died and served in the military during the state of the union. But it's the fact that so many Republicans are refusing to condemn it, and it's about the fact that many, and right wing media are celebrating what Lorn Bobo Dead and it's absolutely incompletely disgusting. So, let's start with our first eggs, but this is a republican congressmen, James Comber, who was given the opportunity to condemn what Lauren Bobo did remember: Marjorie, Taylor, Green, also yelling out and turning her back. to Joe Biden and he doesn't do it. He doesn't do it and It wouldn't be that difficult to do it. could do it in a where? Were you stick? You still say me. Listen at this point You could say I completely condemn what they did, but I,

also. I am worried about X Y Z thing that Biden debt write like that. It's pretty straightforward to put together a statement like that. That's not what he does look look at this disgusting response. Congressmen before we let go. I do want to ask you about what we all saw and heard frankly, last night from the chamber to your calling for over a margin. Tell agree were shouting at the present round his future one moment that I think a lot of people heard she shouted out. Thirteen of them when the president was talking about soldiers in a flag, drink coffins. Do you think that type of behaviour is appropriate? Certainly, whether you agree or disagree with president, I believed in the state of the union. We should also respect the president, but obviously but honestly, but honestly, This is the same and we'll get there. This is like those tweets Putin shouldn't invade Ukraine

but and then something horrible follows, share their frustration point when you look at the crises that we're facing in this country is trying to restore the navy. Should they be localizing that in the middle of his state of the union address, does that not undercut your party and its message in one those critical issues? It certainly not my style. I've heard that type of behaviour from democratic too, and we had republican president. So no actually know. That's not true. That's not true. There have two main heckling incidents are Joe Wilson, heckling, Barack Obama and Bogart and green heckling. You're Joe by those are the incidents.

I just think that the best price, yellow, grassy, amateur, evolving and present in the chamber when about yet well when Donald Trump was was president. So the thing that you that's Hunter Congress should do is use, listen and then we have an opportunity, like I do now to speak to the America and speak to the press, about our disagreements in and move on. I Congress hinges. So what are you going to think? I mean it's, it's not like Bobo and green are so prominent in the party leadership that these are people that you can't be, adversarial with or whatever the case may be like. Is it? Is this guy a coward? Is he merely a bad person like? What do you guys think is the explanation? Cuz, it's not exactly a profile in courage and it's even less likely.

To be condemned when right wing media is sort of cheerleading the entire thing, and that's what I want to talk about next so after heckling, Joe Biden during Tuesday night state of the union address yelling out when Joe Biden was literally talking about his son that died, Lauren, Bobo yelling out in the aftermath of that she sort of like gotta heroes. Welcome in a lot of different places. And she was interviewed by turning point USA, Charlie Kirk. Now, if you dont know Charlie Kirk and you dont know turning point, I envy you, but in all seriousness it's a very well funded organisation that is pulling in young people too radical right ideology and they do it very very effectively. Chow Kirk interviewed Lorn Bogor, and she defended her action. Saying listen. I was very caught up in the emotion because I am so worried about the troops that died under Joe Biden. Take a look, and so you are a drill, baby drill, shirt as well.

today, in a lot of the state of the union, is theatre. So now I got ass. You Congress and because we ve been receiving a lotta emails and somewhere listeners are divided. I think the probably see part of wider divided, because we really ever Nancy closer when she tore the speech. We still have some respect for the president or what are you up to safer? What I say: hey look, I'm with you congresswoman maybe you shouldn't interrupt the presence of the city and in what's your thought on that. First of all really caught up in the emotions of edge he offers so right off the bat. She basically is basing its like a moral get out of jail free card. It was It was a moment of passion it sort of like you killed someone will it took. It was a crime of passion. I wasn't thinking she was so up in the emotion that that's supposed to be like a blanket exculpation for what she did mentioning Afghanistan, but didn't not to mention the thirteen soldiers he went on to something totally different and- download every year his dead son, totally different, really just overwhelmed.

and I couldn't help it speak out and look. I would love to have a conversation in better setting with him and the way to get such a conversation is by heckling him when he talks about his son who died and that's you know how written house the other day, he said on some show, we're gonna work. We might sue Joe Biden, he might get a letter inside outwardly. Why will is again? Will I asked him to meet with me five times and he didn't and it's the aim type of of idea here, she would like to meet with Joe Biden but jobs has it met with her, so she heckled and while he was talking about dead soldiers and his son, who died and and now he's going to meet with you. I would love to be able to talk to him and maybe I'll get the chance to do dash win when Republican these are in the majority in twenty twenty three and we can actually put borne by articles impeachment for Joe by then and have a real conversation, you're, not gonna you are also not gonna. Have a conversation with Joe Biden. If you put forward

silly articles of impeachment, which she and Marjorie Taylor Green, have been talking about now for months and as far as the age, romanian drill, God, like Joe Biden, he would aged on war on american Energy and left us in a very dangerous place? We rely on russian energy importing nearly six hundred thousand barrels of energy per day. I want to talk about this a little bit. A very popular. talking, point has become. We were energy independence under Joe Biden and now we are not. The data is why ITALY available! We cited in our story about energy independence. A couple weeks ago for the latter, several years, the? U S, production of oil has matched who s consumption of oil. Now you have to understand that under widened and under Trump, even though that's the case, there is still trading going on and

we send some oil abroad and also bring some oil in, but in time, of the numbers. First, several years now we have produced much oil as we consume. So the idea that Joe Biden has done any draft big thing were now. We are not at that same equivalent level of production and so end use is just the lie and she keeps repeat No one challenges it, it's not true. When we should be energy and it certainly look. Energy dominant should be able to or energy to our allies, which is literally exporting freedom and So I wore drill, maybe drill on my shots. I remind the Democrats of exactly what we should. we joined yet. No one cares about that and how we should stop funding Russia's war. That's a lot of the state of the union is kind of like making alternative points, and I think people are under

and then I'll be honest like if I was in the eyes of I would have been able to contain myself. So I think that there is a fair answer. If I had a listener, Joe Biden go on and Charlie Kirk would have done the same thing. So there's this soft defence of the completely indefensible they're they're not going to stop there to continue doing it and where it, unless these four are just removed or forced to behave differently. They will continue escalating and it's not going to change and that shouldn't surprise anybody Hale. Why do people call me have me defend communism. I'm not a communist Why would you call me to have me defend that? Here's a voicemail! our voice. Mail number is too one nine to David P, and I just get. Why does anyone care to have me different communism, I'm not a communist, is very this guy calls in all the time asking me to do and things that just have nothing to do with me? It is once again a very concise question. Please, like these.

If communism is so great a queen to people that support communism, but talk to them, I'm not one of those people. Then why do they prohibit their people from living. Leaving the country communism maiden It is true that is very good. They wouldn't need to restrict people from they were just leaving open. Naturally, the people just there because the greatest I'm sure. So if it's a great system. Why are they prohibited from meeting? I screwed up, because I was a very concise, but you go wrong on right. I'd like to hear that you ask a communist one. Don't ask me I dont defend communism on this show. This is a great opportunity for me dimension. Later this month? I am, Would you be in Florida

and I M going to appear on the Patrick bet. David podcast he's got a huge Youtube channel. Three four million subscribers he's got a podcast, so long form, podcast, Patrick Bet, David is not on the left and he asked for a progressive to come on and explain and defend progressive, isn't it I said I'll, do it and he said: let's do it. We're gonna have you on now what other things I'm not going to do on that show is defend stuff that I dont believe in so one of the difficult things about these. These types of areas is its very plausible that I'll go down there and who go were how can you defeated like it. Just is just an example: how can you do and the women's March not allowing Jew, women on their leadership, because jewish women aren't intersection humble enough. I'd go narrow, I dont. Have you got ask someone who did who supports that? I do not support that. This is like one silly example, but the point is: I am not going to defend positions that are not mine. I will tell him you gotta,

someone who believes that, and I will say if it's something that some kind of fringe thing, not very many. People in left actually believe that and it sort of like saying well just do it do we need Mitt Romney. Or would we have asked the late John Mccain too, friend, certain Spencer, some white nationals, but now we would, it does make any sense. So have me too and things I believe- and I am not a communist- I'm not here- to do Apollonia for communism all right. My friend, thank you very much. on the bonus show today The russian convoy appear stalled because the tanks don't much gas and a lot of these things are happening. We're going to talk about that on the phone So today, the governor of ice. has signed a flat tax into law many. states actually have a flapjacks, so it's not as unusual, as you might think, but we'll talk about flat taxes more generally and yes, oil.

Prices are surging, as there are reports which we will talk about tomorrow, that the rush. Ukraine. War could last could last ten to twenty years, but hopefully it won't They did it wouldn't be like the current situation, but we'll talk about all of that Today's bonus show producer Pat will join me. Don't The bonus show sign up a joint path without and get instant ass