--On the Show:
--Tim Jackson, ecological economist, professor, and author of the book "Post Growth: Life After Capitalism," joins David to discuss consumption, growth, macroeconomics, the modern economy, and more. Get the book: https://amzn.to/3ll6rgJ
--Democrats are proposing higher taxes on top earners and corporations to pay for their proposed stimulus bill
--Most Americans support vaccine requirements for many activities, including at workplaces, for in-person classes, and at sporting events and concerts
--Republican Florida Governor Ron DeSantis announces that Florida will fine businesses requiring the COVID vaccine $5,000
--Fox News host Chris Wallace confronts Republican Governor Pete Ricketts about his opposition to a COVID vaccine requirement despite having no issue with a chickenpox or polio vaccine requirement
--Anti-vaccine pastor and radio host Bob Enyart has died of COVID
--Complete and total chaos at a Gavin Newsom / Joe Biden rally in California on the eve of the California recall election
--Republican California Gubernatorial recall candidate Larry Elder appears to be conceding defeat and claiming fraud even before the results of the Californai Gubernatorial recall election are known
--Voicemail caller asks whether more Americans would currently be vaccinated if Donald Trump were still President of the United States
--On the Bonus Show: Capitol police upping security before September 18 rally, turning the tables on the plastic crisis, Salesforce offering relocations out of Texas over abortion law, much more...
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This is an unofficial transcript meant for reference. Accuracy is not guaranteed.
Alright, let's jump right in today with some media policy. We have so much to tell
about today. California recall us tonight will be streaming results live. We have a new tax proposal. We have new.
anti backs mania. We have all sorts of different things, but let's start with some: a policy of material from the Democratic Party Democrats are seeking to increase the corporate
acts, as well as income tax on the wealthy to pay for this three points
five trillion dollar plan about which Joe Mansion is talking, etc, etc. So, let's start with a report from the Associated Press about the proposed
We will then look at it item by item and then we
then look at some of the. I guess I would call it hyperbolic panicked reporting about
if you make five million and live in N Y, see you'll pay, sixty percent total vocational. It will go through it piece by piece. That's the way we like to do it house Democrats unveiled a sweeping,
Postal yesterday for tax hikes on big corporations in the wealthy to fund Joe Biden, three point: five trillion dollar plan, the proposed top tax rate would revert to thirty nine
zero point. Six percent on individuals earning more than four hundred thousand to four hundred and fifty four couples. There would be a three percent tax on wealthy Americans with a j.
income beyond five million a year for big business is the proposal would lift the corporate tax rate from twenty one to twenty six point
five percent on incomes beyond five million, slightly less than the twenty eight percent rate the president had sought in all the tax hikes are in line with Biden Zone proposals and would bring about the most substantive changes in the tax code. Since Republicans with then President Donald Trump slashed taxes in twenty seventeen business and anti tax groups are sure to object. But Democrats are pressing
forward, all right. So where do we start? Well? What are the main provisions of the bill and how do they change
from what we currently have. So, let's look at it. The top tax bracket would indecision individuals. The tops tat top tax bracket would increase from thirty seven percent to thirty nine point. Six percent. This is that infamous tube
six percent difference that Democrats and Republicans have been arguing about for a long time remember going from
the seven to thirty nine point: six, that's back to the pre Bush top bracket before Bush. The top tax rate was thirty. Nine point: six percent under Clinton, Bush lowered it to thirty seven Obama. Let it go back up to thirty nine point: six trump went back down to thirty seven, that's the scope here. Ok, it's a two point: six percentage point gap that is
the subject of the argument and the debate? Now this, though the wording has been muddy and it's already been changed, the bracket would start
lower right now that top tax bracket doesn't kick in until a couple makes six hunter
twenty, eight thousand a year together under it, appears as though, under the Biden Plan under the democratic plants. Are the House Democrats plan that bracket?
start lower at four hundred and fifty thousand dollars in joint income per year no kind. There would be a three percent tax on in
comes over five million dollars a year. Okay, now it it's! You know with all of these things, there is always a question of how much are you capturing? By doing this,
There is an argument to be made that a lot of people whom
A ton of money are not taking a salary above five million dollars a year that a lot of that would be in stock options or another types of deferred compensation, and it would avoid that three percent tax, but ok, will deal with that. Eventually, three percent tax on incomes over five million a year and a corporate tax increase
from twenty one percent to twenty six and a half per cent only on incomes beyond five million dollars. Now remember this doesn't apply to
though many corporations, L, L, seas, ass corporations etc, because those are what are called pass through entities and the income is taxed by the individual stakeholders,
on their personal income taxes. So this would apply to a small portion of corporate.
Science and remember, if your currently avoiding a twenty one percent tax rate, you would then just go to avoiding a twenty six and a half percent tax rate. Unless we put in place a corporate minimum tax,
or some other mechanisms. Another issue that we ve talked about many times. The estimates are, this would raise about two point: nine
trillion dollars of the three point. Five trillion dollars that the legislation that is being discussed would cost my right now.
now. There are some headlines that have been floating about. You know in some states in some cities, with this proposal
individuals who make a lot of money could end up paying around sixty percent. For example, there is a CNBC, our CNBC article, which says TAT
earning new Yorkers that New York City could face a sixty one point: two percent combined tax rate under the House plan Californians, could be paying a fifty nine percent rate. How could this be? Well, let's go through it. First of all, Youtube
have to be at the top level. Nokia you'd have to be at that five million a year level and by the way, if you
at five million a year, you actually don't pay the three percent sir Charge, but let because it starts at five million, but you could be in New York City right. You pay thirty, nine point: six percent on income to marginal tax rate, three percent sir Charge three point: eight percent net invest
income tax. That would get you to forty six point four and then, if you're in New York City, you could have a combined state income, tax and city income tax of fourteen point: eight, you combine the forty six and fourteen and sixty one point two. Now: that's not Europe
active tax rate because remember these are marginal tax rate, it doesn't account for the standard deduction, other ways to reduce tax liability. But that's where they're getting sixty one point. Two is an exaggerated, yes or no
but who make that met much, probably going to pay a lot more. If this passes yeah, they probably will but remember the unless you're really bad with me
When you make more and more money, your spent
in a smaller and smaller share of your income. I've said before I'm very conservative: financially I save the
ass majority of my income. I dont spend it. I live well below my means. So if
I, income tax went up to three four points.
I'm saving less it's not actually affecting
data, day budget and its important understanding at these superhighway
you're making twenty million a year unless your
doing really bad financial things. You're not even feel this. Now you can still argue that it's too high or to let the different argument, but the argument that the vast majority of me
They're going to be affected by this should not be spending anywhere near what they make still can debate whether this is quite right, ok, California,
similar example. You could have that forty six point, four total federal and then thirteen point three state that would get you
to fifty nine point, seven in New Jersey, you could end up at fifty seven point to Hawaii. Fifty seven point, four one other.
Issue is weak,
no, whether the a limit on salt state and local tax deductions is going to be removed. This is just a proposal
and for people saying this is too high
we're going to move out in your city, they're gonna move out a California. The market will tell us, you know if it passes and people start leaving York City in California, at higher rates than people Jeff
really move in and out, then it will be a sign that
it's too high and remember that even if people move out the state, but I'm sorry, the federal government or even the state depending on you know, what's going
they could end up with more money, because there is a taxation, a sort of on a curve, and you could raise taxes and push out taxpayers, but still taken more money in total. Ah, that's that's just a abroad
you, know macroeconomic taxation concept. Huber talk about federal, though, and important that this does nothing about them.
The nationals of that can use different accounting tricks to book revenue and profit. Indifferent country
these to end up losing money on paper in the United States. This won't change that you
need a total revamp and, of course, this is only a proposal
we're going to follow where it goes not shockingly much of the kind
to oversee around vaccine requirements is dramatic,
adequately exaggerated by people looking to get attention. People looking to fund raise people looking to fear
longer people looking to put play the victim card, most Americans support vaccine requirements for workplaces, classrooms and sporting events.
period. They just a majority. When I say most, I mean a majority now I dont say this because I think that, just because something is popular, it should be the law.
I dont there was a point where a lot of people thought gay marriage shouldn't be legal. That didn't mean that that's what it should be. You don't put everything to a vote, but I say this because there is not near
the controversy over vaccine requirements that some want you to
believe there is so the numbers from
new CNN Pole,
overall for everyday activities. Only fifty one percent favour versus forty nine percent oppose vaccine requirements that
very very small, is basically within the margin of error. Fifty fifty, but when you say what about vaccine requirements for places of work, fifty four percent earn favour the other. Forty six percent are split between against and being on shore. Fifty four percent say vaccine should be required for places of work. Fifty five percent say vaccines should be required for in person classes. Fifty five,
percent, say vaccine should be required for sporting events or concerts comparatively only forty one percent say, vaccines should be required for the grocery store. That's predictable that that's, though, that that's not shocking to me also every month that this pole is done. Support for these vaccine requirements goes up and I anticipate that the numbers will be even higher in terms of support for this
Maxine requirements in another month? So this is not overwhelming support. It's not like, after sandy hook with universal background checks. Eighty eight ninety percent of the country said we need universal background checks. We still couldn't get it done by the way, but it's a slight mature
Eddie, whereas rightwing media would have you believe this is tyranny over which the entire country is outraged. That's just not the case part of the reason why support continues to increase for these requirements,
Is that the virus spreading and things are really really bad in much of the country? If everyone,
were vaccinated. It would effectively reduce the total public health burden of covert down to
bout, the level of the flu we don't have that the UN vaccinated are burdening the healthcare system to such a degree that there is very little choice left, but for Joe Biden tried these ideas, this sort of spreading Anti backs terrorism that is infected. So many is a virus of itself its own.
infection- and- let's be honest, when we say more than half the country supports most of these requirements, it's mostly Democrats
a fair number of independence and a very small number of Republicans public health has become partisan. Science has become partisan. You dont, like the science, pretend that science is just an opinion and come up with a different one. That's a real tool
Judy that were experiencing and unfortunately, although we are dealing with it to a far greater degree degree than most other countries, it's actually starting to infect some other countries as well.
And we're going to talk more about that a little bit later on in the programme. Let me know if you favour vaccine requirements for work concerts, grocery stores. You can find me on Twitter at De Pachmann, and let me know your thoughts.
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others off. When you use the promo code pachmann at check out, we have so much to cover today that I will
only the minimum amount of time to remind you that we are funded by memberships and you
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you'd know recall no recall in California. That's what we're talking about the California
gubernatorial recalls today, you'll get a seventy percent discount at joint
Edmund outcome, no recall! That's the guy,
all one word all lowercase. Ok, I have video of death called republican Governor Rhonda Santas. He
defiantly and courageously has announced no matter what Joe Biden says about vaccine requirements and what employers should do
If you as an employer, require vaccination, you will be fined five thousand dollars. This guy is going backwards
on just about everything, the crowd cheering we have clips, we have conspiracies. We have everything, let's get right into it. This is wrong dissent. As yesterday saying vaccine requirement fines, not vaccine requirements, fines
vaccine requirements. Eureka- and so they were government agency in the state of Florida Force- is a vaccine as a condition to employment that violates Florida law, and you now you know sycophantic cheering aside,
This is really muddled because the Biden requirement is for employers over
hundred employees, the sand. This is talking about state government agent.
CS requiring it to work. Now. The Biden version has an opt out which just requires a weekly tests. So
even really clear that this is a direct response to the Biden requirements. It's just the descend to some
ass. You will face a five thousand dollar fine for every single violation. Okay, so this is either that the party that says
never regulate business business should be allowed.
They are now starting to say no, let's act.
We regulate business in this case talking about state government agencies rather than businesses, but he's been pulling a lot of the very same stuff
then, going on to talk about booster shots, so called booster shot. Some
calling them third doses and again just so high
parabolic so sycophantic Eureka
Can you imagine if tromp had unilaterally set a date for after yea without there? Having underlying data, I mean the corporate press would have a meltdown, I mean it would be a wall. The wall hysteria remember Joe Biden talking about September twentieth is the date at which people will be able to go and get third doses be able to go,
and the idea that there is anything tyrannical about that is just a silly as the idea that there's anything tyrannical, but any of the things that have been done so
our aim for learning science and not following experts or whatever and look. I have no knowledge, as I have not seen any data, but these Boucher shut, but it could be in a situation where one six months from now, if found she says, get one you just have to do it or thing in a fire. You then, at that point or thing in a fire you a year from now, ok drawn descent.
continuing on and then give
some scenario about forcing
eighty year old to be vaccinated, pinning down an eighty year old,
there were some day just did not want to take it. They did not think that it was something that was right for them, and so what are you gonna? Do you get a pin down some eighty year old, nursing home resident force them to take it? They had put ever reason. I dont know what what the reasons were, whether doktor recommended whether they had had covered before? What have you, and so it just shows that, and I also think that what they're doing is very harmful disguised completely
of his mind, I mean it is: it is a death cult of sorts. I dont even know quite frankly, that dissenters believes this stuff. I think he knows he's playing to a call in Florida and he'll be punished if he doesn't do this stuff. Here is a clip. I actually can't tell if this was the
same event or not, let's see, look he's wearing the same suit, although it might be.
like guess it is the same room, the lighting is different here. An anti back, Sir, was invited to speak.
Stood behind the seal of Florida and said the vaccine
it is your rna, it doesn't and dissent is just stands there. The vaccine changes your rna. So for me that's a problem, so I I'm here with you folks. We don't want to how the vaccine it's it's about our freedom and liberty, its.
About the vaccine, so I mean ok, dissent is looked a little bit uncomfortable with that, but when he spoke, he just thank the guy and did not mention anything about the fact that the vaccine does not change your are in a does not show
your rna. I don't even think the guy speaking knows what that means. So a complete death.
Continuing to control Florida. Unfortunately, let's make sure that a similar death cult doesn't
the control of California by voting no on that recall tonight. Ok, this is really great stuff. A question I've been asking for weeks now is: if you are opposed to the approved.
Of covert nineteen vaccine being required anywhere. Why,
You are opposed to a requirement for the chicken pox vaccine,
or the polio,
M M are or Hepatitis
is or whatever the case may be. Fox news host Chris Wallace confronted the Republican Nevah Nebraska Governor PETE Rickets about exactly that question now. Rickets is again
ah loudly, coming out against everything. Joe Biden is trying to do on corona virus requirements, including most recently the vaccine Mandy
and requirements for employers and others, but the very same PETE Rickets is fine with tons of other vaccines. This is fascinating. Stuff. That's why
search and listen to the multiple things that Rickets says, because we're gonna break them down one by one in a moment to attend
school in euros? Data Nebraska children must be
accelerated against a number of diseases. Let me put him up on the screen: they must be vaccinated against a terrier tat tetanus in protest. That's the deity p shot that kids get polio, measles, moms and Rebecca Hepatitis B and Chicken pox why
Are those mandates that parents and your estate must comply with and do comply with routinely? Why is it that they're not US
objectionable in such a violation, beautiful personal freedom, but Biden. This vaccine mandates are well for all those that you just listen. There's a long history
that errors have had the opportunity to see how those things have been implemented. So
there is a long. History is not actually an argument, it might say
like an argument, but it's not actually an argument he's not explaining why that should matter. Maybe if he tried to explain he could give
something substantive and we might be convinced or not, but alone. That's not an argument, and there are still a lot of people out there who
no, what atrocity? In fact, this is really an outcome of what the CDC is down because they flip lap and so on.
Issues, whether its mass or what they have to mask. Have you been
say and so forth. Okay, so then he says lots of people don't know who to trust them.
Also not an argument, because the question is in either case with all the vaccines, their approved by the same body, and then the CDC has flip flopped this one, I'm very sick of they act.
like when the CDC changes their view based on me,
or data they act like it's just changing
your mind about a movie, you, like I mean less and one day you like the movie or in a different mood the next day you don't like it. The CDC
uses science, which is a process with with a self correcting mechanism built in it
comes, ideally more accurate overtime,
and it's not an argument against one vaccine, but not another remember. The question was wise: this vaccine recur
I'm not okay, and that one is so. It is in particular,
not an not an argument against that, just a lot of people, while their job
know who to trust right now and so by having a garment
force it on your, not building Untruss, where we have a trust with those
vaccines. Now remember it's also.
Not being forced. Your employer can choose to let people test out each week instead of being vaccinated or not if your employer doesn't want to. As Republicans like PETE Rickets want employers to be able to do
This is a process voting time to bring people along and that's why it should be a personal choice, and now
having mandated by the government
Forgive me, sir, on older, not that I remember when the polio vaccine first came out a lot of
and certainly our parents muted is a blessing and immediately I lived in New York state at that
time, the state mandated that,
I'll, get the polio vaccine right. So you know we're in the middle of a pandemic, there is
new vaccine Donald Trump was largely responsible for its been approved full approval by the FDA. Again, if, if polio vaccine is ok for
parents, and I have to comply with it to send their kids school. Why not? Chris walls is doing a good job here for a lot of people, not just kids, the vaccine for for this
I think this is very different from polio that has very devastating effects and something we know if you're older, sixty five.
There's an old, less we're eighty three percent of deaths and irrational gunning. So then he drops in well. Polio is devastating. Well then talk about another
This should mean that the death rate of chicken pox is really low. It's one per one hundred thousand. If you look at slightly older kids, it's six per.
One hundred thousand, it's very contagious, but it's not very deadly. So the point here is
He has no good answer, and this is a question we ve been asking for. Awhile. Look at all these other requirements for vaccination. There only talking
most ninety nine point: nine percent of them are only talking about the covert vaccine requirement. They are pathetic. They dont have an answer that there are to to articulate if they can come up with an actual substantive,
explanation. I would gladly review it and think about it, and maybe they will convince me
before we go to break. I do want to squeeze in just one other one of these stories. It really appears as though,
being a right wing, radio, host and or a right wing pastor.
Can be very, very dangerous. Bob any art, conservative fire, Brandon, pastor, big anti, backs dies of covert nineteen. The Denver
does reporting that the pastor of the timber Bible, church and indelible talk show host has died from Cove it Bob
and yet it was one of the smartest and without question wisest person. I've known said Fred Williams, his co host on the real science radio show real science. Can you imagine any art and his wife refused to get the vaccine due to abortion concerns in October, and your success
We see the state over mass mandates and capacity limits and churches of rare legal victory against public health mandates instituted during the pandemic. You might be saying abortion. What what are you? What are you talking about? I checked out the website and they have a section covert vaccines aware they say this is from last month, guys guys dead, now
Bob and Cheryl have sworn off, taking the Pfizer, Madonna and Johnson Vaccines, because, as those firms admit, they tested the three products on the cells of a
Where did babies? There are, however, vaccines being developed. Morally, though, none are scheduled to be
available until the end of this year, our friends over at cog for life,
dot. Org list, these coming ethical vaccines, Merk, Sanofi and from Nova backs the Charlotte lows your instance
reports in Ohio and Bio when Tech are also producing vaccines, develop without fetal tissue. So why
it is not inherently sinful to taken a morally developed, a vaccine. We urge every
to boycott Pfizer, Madonna and Johnson to further increase social tension while and put pressure on the child.
pillars, remember many institutions and celebrities who have been pro choice all along our now call
to legalise infanticide, which they call after birth abortion, so there's no bottom to their abyss. Sanofi pastor has discontinued using fit fetal tissue for
polio vaccine. Well, so maybe pseudo allow people to get the polio vaccine at this church. These people are causing death. He died
he died now another one of these guys who died, but they are also causing death elsewhere by convincing people of this stuff. So another Anti backs radio host, who is also a pastor
just last week saying no Pfizer, no modern, oh, no, no Johnson, as they call it, he has now died. Ah, what can you say
What can you say will have more on that on our instagram at David Pachmann Show.
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Imagine all you do is pay
five dollars for shipping today we're going to be speaking with TIM Jackson, whose in
the logical economists, professor and also author of the book post growth life after capitalism,
so great to have you on I appreciate it is up, is a pleasure to be here David. So, let's start with something that to a social Democrat like me,
is still something that is in the back of my mind, which is that we are on a planet that has some
maximum capacity in terms of resources in terms of population carrying capacity etc?
economies are based on
A little bit of inflation is good and where that inflation comes from is the expectation
there will be more productivity in the future than there is today, and GDP has to
continue going up or we considered that were in a recession structurally. At some point that becomes a problem right. Is that a sound place to start the conversation, yet he I think it is a sound basis for negotiation, David and especially where I start as well and end is surprising, is surprising, easy to kind of aid. That argument unites its ordinary people in the streets in way were living on a finite planet. The economies based expand forever with all by economists. Surely at some point in a expanding economy into finite planet doesn't go say so what on earth is going on? And what surprising, I think is that that such difficult proposition for politicians of any color, I would say to really take Syria
they ought to know what to do anything about and and economists typically, I would have to say, tend to think that the economies is about money. It's not necessarily about stuff,
And so, if we clever enough without technology, we can sort of get ourselves off the hook and work our way round. All of these resource limits- and I urge you know- that's an argument
right, and so one of the arguments that frequently made is while what you're saying is true at this point,
basically theoretical in the sense that its very far out- and you know a hundred years ago- nobody could have predicted exactly the way things are today if we're talking thousands or tens of thousands of years from now. Things will be so structurally different that this
at minimum, going to add at in the best case it will resolve itself in the worst case, will have the tools with which to deal with it by the time it's really a problem, but that doesn't really seem satisfying, as as an ecological answer were. I think I think where it falls down to is that might
retrieve some kinds of resources that we might run out of that actually were already running out of what we could call ecological space in a we're running out of climate instability, we're running out of the other species on the planet that are being decimated because of human activity, we're running out
clean water and clean air and clean oceans and, and that running out is actually something is happening right now I mean the evidence on that is alarming, just to simply the climate change evidence what was faced in the West Coast in terms of heat and the EAST coast in terms of of flooding and Europe in terms of flooding and Australia in terms of heat, almost everywhere you look on the planet. You nervous,
these extreme weather conditions, which suggest that it has somehow that far out scenario that expanding economy meets the limits of the planet, actually isn't that far out. After all, this kind of right here on outdoors
one of the issues. I guess that economists are confronted with within this kind of conversation within this paradigm is there are
certain aspects of how we think about an economy that are kind of taken for granted. I mentioned already if GDP is growing. This is a country that is
stagnating or in a recession in a decline. That's one aspect of this debt and deficit and how that relates to how a country is doing is is
big piece of this. How would those metrics have to be completely rethought?
under the umbrella and framework that you propose what I think I think
way GDP was never a very good metric in one of the things I do in the book is go back to the words of of of Robert Kennedy. Speaking in nineteen. Sixty eight fifty three years ago were actually was a prominent politician prepared to acknowledge the limits of this measure of the GDP and say, look images in everything,
except that which makes life worth while he said, but also it misses out the damage it goes into the planet. It doesn't include the positive things that people do
for free in their own homes is just not a very good measure of our well being and- and so so in a sense, you know the answer to a question will of stars and better measures. What really matters and some of those measures
You know like our sense of well being in a sense of purpose, and so on could be, could be measures which are very unfamiliar to politicians and that's a little bit of a challenge, but others of them are really quite simple, like you know, not measuring, for example, how much we are,
grading our capital assets in the economy itself is something that the GDP is is notorious for for failing to do an and not putting any sort of sense of cost on on the damage that, because in two to the environment, and not putting any sort of value on the work that people do in their own homes. All of these things actually- and there are very, very good attempt to improve that matter-
the GDP, but you could almost at this point in time. Almost any distance towards measuring something more meaningful than the GDP would be a step forward, because it's just not a very good measure of of progress is not very good measure of human progress.
society. So, in terms of some of those things,
The universal basic income movement, which has different names, proposes itself as a way to put value to that which has done in the home, for example, or that which an economy may not currently value car
the way in which we might put, but monetary value on the degradation or b, b of the environment or the pollution that that's released, etc. It is that thinking to small still or those good ideas could shut.
No. They are very good ideas and some in some ways, Sunday night universal basic income is, and I think, one
in one of the architects of the universal basic income, Andre goals, talking about it first or which will
but seriously in the nineteen sixty. He wasn't the first person to talk about it, but
What he saw the said was it's a sort of stealth concept, because, by changing our relationship to the way that we earn money and by changing our relationship to the way that we work, it enables us to think in massively creative ways about all the valuable things that are happening in society. Light in a kind of volunteering in our community and.
work that happens in the home and looking after our elderly and looking after our kids, and it allows us to put a value on those things which, in purely capitalist system and the system of the markets, if you like, just don't have that value on them. So I you know I am in favour of those, but I still think me to answer your question. I would say they are tools in the two books and the the
difficulties, sometimes in implementing those tools. Using those tools. Is that the architects of the system don't allow them to be used, so they re couple of ecological taxation, for example. We talked about for decades, and yet it's really hard to implement because of the politics of gross based economy.
That that's where I was going to go next, which is when we talk about Reno, convincing people getting people on board, etc. It seems that two four and six year, political,
terms in in a variety of different countries, are completely mismatched with the toy,
Online and priorities that are required to deal with these issues where a lot of these things
our longer term projects and if you're next election is in two years or for or six it just seems to be fundamentally at odds with the timescales that we're talking about to actually make some of these structural change
It's it's is adults in many ways and nothing. You know. That's not the only thing, that's wrong with a political settlement system, because the other thing that's wrong, as it becomes in some sense because of the way in which political parties become funded. They end up being a sort of apologists for the status quo in defending invested interests and that sometimes stands in the way of them, representing the interests of the poorest in society, the most vulnerable in society, including, of course, the other species. We share the planet with say. Yes, we do have to think much more seriously. I think about the role of governance and the role of power within government, an unthinkable
that as you're suggesting in with a much longer term view and again there are some interesting initiatives there that in Hungary, that something called the ombudsman for
you two generations, a kind of representative of people who are coming way down the line from the future and not represented by the democracy of that
and that's been taken up in Wales in the UK, but with a future generations act,
and does so this initiative, in fact, to change the way the government works to bring the future in
decision making in the present is a really important parts of of thinking about how we address those long term issues. Certainly part of this would also be more
citizens demanding these things of elected officials and
There are a lot of sort of bullet points that are often repeated by those who don't want to take these issues more seriously about how
Such structural change would impact our day to day lives things about
you know, you might only be able to have small car,
as in the United States or gas might be twenty dollars.
gallon or you might not be able to use
air conditioning we're whenever you want a real, a lotta this day to day stuff at the personal level,
What would a paradigm shift, the likes of which you propose really mean for individuals,
Yes, a really good question: I'm not my work over over three more than three decades now has been really working in policy on it's been about. You know suggesting the kinds of economic policies that would that would address some of these issues. In effect, just over ten years, twelve years ago, the previous books that I wrote to school prosper,
without great, it was written for policy makers, it had all these wonderful ideas in a like ecological tax reform, universal basic income, different ways of valuing the environment, different ways of measuring well being at all last stuff in it almost like a kind of shopping. This, though, what politicians could do on Monday, if they really cared about this issue right and has been fascinating to see that not happen, and it doesnt have a vital source of reasons. Vested interests show political timescales that we talked about, but also that fear within politics.
that the electorate will not stand for this kind of change. You know that it's a bit a hard task place to be in which our lives will become less comfortable more on
this and so on and so forth? These are the kind of language of fear that populate this debate and in a way what I was trying to do in post grace was to say that a mistake. You know the fear that we should have actually is of an economy that doesn't respect the environment. That doesnt respond
the value of human labour in our lives that doesnt value these things properly at all, and then
driving us towards you never divided well
in which environmental resources are being degraded at a rate become. We cannot cope with anymore thats where they stop your lies, and so the post crisis really about looking for where an escape route from this type, your might exist, and I in I think that that's led me across philosophy is led me across psychology is led me across politics and and and indeed in our moral thinking, thinking about about the ethics of our world and the thing that leaks out at me. I think most clearly from that is this: the potential for four Schuman developments, a human progress outside of this very materialistic consumer based gross driven economy
that we ve inherited is huge its massive because at the end of the day, in the kind of world in which I think we thrive is one in which our relationships are strong in which our community feel secure.
world, in which work is not just in a good in terms of income and keeping us going but is meaningful as it has purpose voice and that an that's
and sexually of living in a world in which there is hope for the future, because we're taking those
our mental limit seriously
tremendously- creates his place, and I've been fascinated, in particular by ideas from within psychology which sought to suggest that actually, somehow materialism and the comforts of goods
immersion stand in the way of us making real human progress. They stand in the way of us developing skills because it because we come to become too lazy. They stand in the way of us developing active active lives because big become become too comfortable and sit around eating too much and being comfortable being out was wonderful, don't get me wrong, I'm not knocking being comfortable but there's a sense in which
being outside. Of that comfort zone takes us to our true potential as human beings, where we learn their skills, where we engage in activities that give us satisfaction where we feel
ass. They were embodied in a world in which we have meaning and purpose Andy.
Which there is hope for the future and to me, therefore, you know where I came out of that exploration is really that this post gross world his eye. He said
richer placed the not necessarily in terms of money, definitely not necessarily in terms of material possessions but in terms of our capabilities to
fulfilling lives as human beings and to return to ourselves that sense of hope in the future. Europe and, of course, the challenges in the midst of consumer culture that bombards people it's getting
people to even be open to the idea that that may actually be be richer and more fulfilling, certainly an uphill battle, the boy
is, I think, anybody I got this year, not just on that point David. I mean, I think, that's true, and yet there are a million places to start with the right. You know how we judge, how we educate our kids, how we think about our own programme
go through life. Yet what decisions we make about where we invest their money in our time, all of those places to start, although you know,
there are law. As you say, there are lots of obstacles to the two making those kinds of choice. Is there also
there's a myriad of opportunities for making them as well. Well. Well, well said: the book is: post growth, life after capitalism, we ve, been speaking with TIM jacks
I saw appreciate your time today has been a pleasure David. One of our sponsor
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in the podcast notes for this episode. Ok, let's talk about
California Gubernatorial recall the California gubernatorial recall is today. There are basically two possibilities: either the don't recall the keep Gavin Newsome Side Win,
and gave a new some remains, the democratic governor of California and overwhelmingly democratic state or or or
The remove Gavin knew some side winds and almost certainly an outrageous right wing,
Premised named Larry Elder becomes the pro trump Anti backs. Anti mask governor of California really
horrible stuff will get the how it's looking in a moment. Last night Joe Biden actually was in California, and he did an event in support of Gavin knew some RON, Philip Cow Ski doing.
great job with his team, covering the riffraff outside the event he has tee.
Aims at all of these different events. Filming check out that this is just to give you like the flavour of. What's going on this
is just another argument between, in others, anti back sirs there. There's all sorts of wacky people showing up and check list
to the arguments that are taking place here? If you can,
my man and Raw read a lot like noticed. What's going on here, there's two different:
arguments going on in front of an F Joe Biden sign it's it's just complete and total chaos guys following the disagreement here right now,.
now the audio glitch, but I think airforce mom unmasked, airforce mom, is yelling that there
been hundreds of thousands of deaths from the vaccine.
is that what she sang, many people die from your bank s, lap.
I promise you listening. More people died from the vaccine than the flu Agus am. I,
where you been nominated, got your brain and why not everybody dies? I come here: honey I've been ninety nine survival rate wide when I knew about. Why do I love them so that the AIR Force mom screaming there? The proud boys also
a presence. At this event. This is a short clip. If you're not watching this debate
Boys there are walking with a huge banners, just all its
That's the banners is real political prisoners now, which is a reference. Basically, they re all providers who were arrested on January. They want those did they want the insurrectionists relayed saluting now. What are you doing is a police line, someone just the old communist there, and these are the last places I would be caught it's just it's crazy. Then they went back to air force. Ma
like a while later, and the argument was still going on with anti backs
Forest mom now going through your reason, why? Why are you wearing Eleanor yet more if they did? This is like, oh, my god would say sociological experiment. So if you ve just been listening to this, did these people arguing on the left, slash kind of like in the background you ve got unmasked on vaccinated air force, mom telling a woman that more people died from the vaccine then
from the flu in the last year and that, of course, not true, then in the foreground. You have another woman saying that the Gavin knew some tat if Gavin knew some stays in the town
taxes will break California now remember
California has one of the most dynamic economies in the world. If California, where a country, it would be growing almost as quickly
as many really quickly growing developing nations. There's a homelessness
problem. Without a doubt, it's not afford
well for everyone, but one of the things that makes places expensive is demand. People want to be there and it drives the prices of things up so too,
wacky arguments happening at the exact same
I'm all right! Then we will be illegal. Immigrants have more rights than was so. The xenophobia gets thrown into.
I hope you will, but how much do you make? What percentages that ok? So the important thing is the Rico
is today today today today, if you
haven't voted yet you ve got it
male in that ballad, the Good NEWS is that
you're in early August it was basically tied. Ok was basic.
Tied in early August, Gavin
you some has built a lead that is now sixteen points. Now does that
mean we dont vote. Of course not. It means you ve gotta, go vote. You ve, gotta, go vote. Results are expected around eight p m
California time tonight tonight, eleven pm eastern time I will be streaming
we'll be streaming up until we get those first results, and I hope that
will join me unfold
gently unfortunately or may be predictably Larry.
there, the Republican, can't the leading republican candidate is not committed to accepting the results. If he loses. Let's talk about that next
This should really come as absolutely no surprise to any of us, but the leading
Publican govern gubernatorial recall candidate in the California,
material recall is not saying he will accept them
salts and in fact, seems to have already conceded defeat and has launched an initiative to say that we need to recount or something like that
the daily beast is reporting Larry Elder preemptively concedes defeat and launches a voter fraud site before the results of today's cow
Foreign gubernatorial recall have even come in top polling report.
Looking candidate, Larry Elder appeared to be already conceding defeat on Monday, and preparing to blame is loss on baseless claims of widespread voter fraud, as first reported by the sack
no be elders. Campaign launched a website calling for his supporters to report incidence of voter fraud and sign a petition to investigate the results. Wait hold on your calling for an investigator
and before the results around the site which is paid for by the campaign includes land
That assumes governor knew some is already one, although no
boats have yet been released and elder is campaigning. The site says quote: we implore you to join us in
spite, as you are able, primarily by signing our petition demanding a special session of the California legislature,
to investigate and ameliorate the twisted results of this recall. Wait. We don't have the results yet you're calling for an effort for some kind of
investigation of the results that we
yet have? It goes on to say a dish?
finally, the website states statistical analyses used to detect fraud in elections held in third world nation, such as Russia.
Venezuela and IRAN have detected fraud in California.
Resulting in governor knew some being reinstated as governor would, by the way Ryan
They did, he was never removed, it's all crazy and it really shouldn't surprise.
Here was Larry Elder yesterday being asked multiple times. Will you commit to accepting the results and he won't say that he well, because he obviously will not
Larry elder leading republican candidates would not commit to accepting the results of the election
and whether or not you win or lose will you accept the result of the election tomorrow? No, I think we all ought to be looking at election integrity, no matter whether you're, a democrat and independent or republican, with all make sure that the election is a fair election to this all work together in a measure. Do you have any reason to believe that it is not fair as of right now to have any evidence with the result
to make sure that the results are valid and legitimate, and everybody who voted should avoid this all do that together is a commitment to accept this. As far as all do that together, that's all we, together on both sides of the elder, make sure that the election is a fair election year. I would like to see the actual question. Is there
thing right now that you can point to that makes you doubt the integrity of this election Donald Trump
I mean it shouldn't surprises. Larry elder is doing this. I played for you this clip last week, Donald Trump,
use MAX is already saying it's rigged in California, as the pole
has gone more and more in favour of Gavin knew some. The claims of reach,
king have increased,
the recall election coming up in less than a week action.
Having as we speak, the poles
appear to show. Newsome looks safer at this point: Larry Elders, the man they could take
from him. What do you think happens in California? Well, it's probably rig dish any out. All balance judge all delete the ballad, sir. You know male out malian valid. In fact, I guess you even have occasionally you can make your own valid when that happens in crayon, you can make your own bell. Nobody's gonna win accept these Democrats, so I looked at the very good. The one thing they good at is rigged elections, so I predicted a rigged elections. Let's see how it turns out, so there is, of course, no evidence of that whatsoever, but they are already claiming fraud already claiming fraud. Let's hope that Larry Elder does not become the gun
of California it would be a real tragedy. I see it as a partial referendum on Trump ISM elder a big pro trump guy, big big programme guy
and keeping knew some would not only be better for California than putting in Larry Elder, who says there should be no minimum wage
he got me. Listen, I get. We went through the whole list on a stream yesterday, an has said he would end any kind of mass requirements, any kind of vaccine requirements and everything and trumps great. Let's hope that that doesn't happen too
you can join me live on Youtube, twitch and Facebook for results from California. Tonight. Ok,
We have a voice mail number. That number is too one nine to David PETE. Here's a very good question
and I'm gonna be honest with you about the answer. Ok, listen to the question then I'll give you my answer. I live in. This is David from Ohio
I was just wondering if tromp was still president? Would more people be taken?
Maxine. Would everyone be taking the vaccine? Would we be better off as a country? I was just wondering your thoughts on that. Thanks, listen! Yes, it is undeniable that, if Donald Trump or President right now more Americans would be vaccinated. There is no question because the people who follow science, who are vaccine
did today would still be vaccinated if proper president, but there would be millions of trumpets who have not gotten the vaccine because it has been Joe Biden overseeing its rollout who would have gotten vaccinated if tramper president. Now the second question is tougher: would we be better off as a country that
harder to say because tromp was such an unmitigated unmitigated disaster. I think long term we're
better off with Joe Biden rather than Trump either
though, you would have more trumpets vaccinated if proper president, but I fully admit the people that care about red
Rick rather than science. They would
likely be vaccinated at a much higher rate. If Trump were present
today. If you disagree with me, let me know, but I dont think I think I would be lying to you if I denied that we have a great bonus show for you today, September eighteenth Saturday might be Trump riots.
Two, we will talk about the measures security measures that police are taking in DC in advance of that corporations tried to blame individual
for the plastic crisis. Oh you, gotta, recycle, that bottle now states are starting to turn. The tables on corporations and sales force is offering to wreak locate Texas based employees on the basis of the
Texas Abortion law very interesting. What sales force is doing. We will talk about all of those stories and more on today's bonus, Joe sign up a joint action
Transcript generated on 2021-09-15.