BBC sounds music radio, podcasts, hello, I'm Lauren Laverne, and this is the desert island discs podcast. Every week I ask my guests to choose the eight tracks book and luxury they'd want to take with them if they were cast away to a desert island for rights reasons, the music is shorter than the original broadcast. I hope you enjoy listening, the my castaway this week is dame Helena morrissey one of the city of london, leading lights, she's globally, renowned as a leader and change maker

the sea, oh, she oversaw thirty billion pound increase at her investment management company, while building a reputation as someone who worked differently. One of her first decisions was to offer everyone working there a four day week later she founded the thirty percent club, which recently achieved its titular target. Boosting the rapporteur station of women on uk bots, alongside her korea and campaigning. Her aptitude for figures comes in hungary at home. She recently calculated that have family had gone through at least one hundred and forty eight birthday cakes. Since the eldest of her nine children was born. She says if any one had said to me when I was a sham,

I and Gorky teenager that one day I would have nothing children and be the chief executive of an investment company and work on initiatives to drive gender equality. I would have laughed nervously dame helena, Morrissey welcomed. Does island disk. Thank you learn, thank you for having me to pleasure. So you ve written that leaders today need to earn the right to lead to inspire not to force you regarded as one of the world's top leaders were. the key to inspiring people. What I think, starting with listening and understanding, what's important to them, and then lots of us aspirations. We want to achieve whatever we can in life, but I think in firing people to tonnes cheesy be the best version. That themselves was visible understanding what that is- and I love the fact that nowadays, leadership is not just about telling people what to do is not just about hunting and controlling, but it is really understanding what will make them the best version. I mean that's even more difficult in extra,

Circumstances isn't it, and at the moment there are challenges philetus, all across the board, in every line of work, the corona virus crisis at the moment, in a way, speaking on the eleventh of march this the bricks, it negotiations, the impact of climate change on our communities. What qualities do you think led? His knee now, what do you need empathy and a failure to understand that if everybody's anxious than nigger need reassurance, even if sometimes that means honest and sang at she- wouldn't have a crystal ball. We don't know exactly what will happen, but I Actually we can all take one step in front of the other. We can get there and think sometimes just reassuring people by being there by being available for talking, them, and not just assuming that, because you put out some massive emails everybody in the company that they understand that everything has been looked after. People need the human touch. No, that the tanks superwoman is often applied to you. Do you think super women are made all born? I realize it's. I look back on you.

as we choose to be the way you are, but I recognize that I have always been quite driven. Just sort of wanted to cheap things on the numbers is manic brownie, even seven eight nine and I want to break the record for the moose badges and now I I said a half laugh or cry at that thought that dead I'm already enjoy doing that, but I think people can do a lot more than they imagine they can do. Sometimes we can stretch more and sometimes just again. In my own life, I haven't had nine children orleans one go. You know I've. I've had single pregnancy, and everything in my career has been. I spent almost living every day in a certain way, and then it gradually bills, and I try to encourage more people to do that, it's time to I've been to music Helena once the first disc is chosen force. I've chosen, george, harrison's my sweet lord. This is it song that I love and for me, when it's played, I just immediately picture. entire family. At my eldest daughter, florence, his wedding to Benjamin clementine,

eldest son was paying the qatar and all of the other children besides flow with singing fits well, with us and we had him recorded on his guitar blank and you know they really put a lot of work and just to make it a special and at the my youngest picked up the tambourine and skips down the aisle and the happy couple George Harrison my sweet, lord, taking you back to a very special family moments, Helena morrissey you and I

Talking today on the morning when the bank of england cut interest rates to help mitigate the possible impact of the corona virus on business, you were in the running to become the first female governor to succeed. Mark Conny, how do you feel about not getting that position? I odyssey feel slightly disappointed, but on the other hand, I certainly did not presume that I was going to get it. I entered the race at hartley because I encourage other women to go for things, and I felt that perhaps at this juncture, because I'm not a central banker, I've worked in the city for a long time. I felt that maybe someone with a bit more lateral thinking from different perspectives was needed, and so is no good me saying that, theoretically, if I'm not possible person- and actually I was- I think it was good that I was interviewed in the sense that my Application was taken seriously and people bring different qualities to lay of sea

decide to go in a certain way. The chosen someone whose very much steeped in regulatory background, so you received your deem hood for services to diversity in financial services and for you'd diversity. I think it's important to say, isn't just diversity among people but includes diversity of opinion. Why is out and well overseer? camelot about equal opportunities, but I also want businesses to be well run. I want them to serve their customers and clients. Well- and I love see the british when we do prudently and all of that any gonna happen if we have the most creative, most and spied ideas and people around the table- and I think the financial crisis of a decade ago showed us that ship you just have one type of person around the table and not just because they were all men or all white or all a certain age, but often by similarly educated, hang out with each other in the same social circles, and it's really difficult to get that creative spark and to have the challenge

and I really see the point of dynasty as being yes about equal opportunity, but also just as importantly, about having better thinking better companies and a better economy for everybody's bad. It's time to go to the music you set, in disk today Helena wisely chosen it. This is shook, hands, rowing polonaise in a flat major as a child. I learnt the piano, and I did this it's very seriously for awhile and at one stage my parents are thinking of sending me to music school. I'm rather glad they didn't, because I'm very happy with my life, but I worked very hard at the piano, and this was a fetch with the hardest piece that I ever learned. I compliant nowadays, it's very frustrating. If you are once half proficient to not to play something quite so well that every everytime I hear it I think of that time of my life, my dad spent so long. Listening to me practice I mean he was a saint with hindsight and I I hope it didn't take you for granted. But it reminds me of those happy times when will happy for me when I was playing and he would listen, and

the the the The the

part of chopin, heroic polonaise in a flat played by author Rubinstein and in earlier years by you deem penance Yes, no quite the same way as he place anyway, seen goods welfare, I was an essay by practice several hours a day, but you need to keep that often, I'm afraid I don't these days suit help me a little bit more about yourself at a young age. You described yourself earlier as a manic brownie Very then, all Israel is a strange skills like met working. Well, not that strange. But for me in my current life it is done simmer for, and Roma sunday. At the end, we had a long, thin garden, and so the summer for flags were used, and I had to

translate it and then do it back to him. So he had to learn it too. But up until this point I haven't had any need for it, but I enjoyed learning the technique at the time, so he was very driven, very competitive about collecting these badges in these skills. What did it feel like? What were you after? Was it the skill that you wanted to learn, or was it the accolade that you would chasing you. I didn't know that they would be an accolade. Actually, the local newspaper pictured meet with all my badges on my arm, but I dont aunties bait that, but I think somebody I got thirty one badges, and so I just thought the logical thing was to try to get thirty two, and I I dont know why. Really it's a mystery to me to this day well say was as it is. We ve had a less well, prepared, castaways off to this desert island. So we will come and be my opportunity for. Finally easing all of those strange skills. I've picked up an interesting to see. You know your drive,

in so early. Your your mother and father, Jackie and tony, were teachers and and very supportive by the sounds of it. Yes- and I mentioned my dad listening to me- practice the piano, my mother, an avid reader, always loved poetry, novels and always with discussing the topics of the day with me and stalwart, what members of our village church they gave me a lot of freedom. We moved when I about ten to hence village and my sister, my kingdom mumps the day we moved so, we're quarantined basically for the summer holidays, and we just went off on our bicycles. I was ten. She was sex, obviously way before the days of mobile phones. We took a picnic and my mom would say: come back at six for supper. Apparently, you also showed leadership in your play as a child, because you on a school soil, is my sister a little sister. She was my only pupil and I was very solemn about the whole thing and I shall turn those bicycle rights into

part of the school in a week when a nature trail hunt and set forth. But with hindsight I was a bit strict stung to hear your third disk today. What can it be said? The carpenter we ve only just begun, and this resonates with me on so many levels. My parents always pay lots of music and one day my mom board the carpenters, it was them, the singer. was. I think, nineteen sixty nine seventy three and the opening track on that is. We ve only just begun and when I first heard just could not believe how beautiful com, carpenter's voice was, and very Sadly, of course, she died at the age of thirty. Two of anorexia will complications around that and I achieve. from that in my teenage years. I think she died about a year two years after I had recovered, so that too, unfortunately, is appointed connection it's so tragic that she lost her life and dumb yeah just makes me feel both happy and sad to listen to this

to speak, It is wrong. Yes the carpenters and we ve only just begun helena, morrissey a poignant track for you. As you said, you suffered from anorexia and your teens and use of it for about a year, and they were covered quite quickly it was very scared from my parents, and I wasn't much shorter than I am now says about five, five or six and anyway fight stone, and so now I looked back and the pictures and utterly hideous

but of course, in my mind, I had this very warped image. I thought I was fat and me I can remember getting on the scales and thinking. Oh I'm going to get down fausto near whatever it was and is almost completely irrational. And very worrying for parents, and as many my parents can revise stable back guiding. This is probably mean being that worried about growing up things. Get of grain. Opening grieve felt him too rigid I think anorexia is now known to be a lot to do with wanting to have control over an aspect of your life. and you know we know we don't have control of lots of and controlling what you can team and completely control the night. If he can do that, but obviously it's not a healthy thing and that I had. She do recall that sense, recognizing suddenly the self destruction part of it and that it was something I couldn't do wrong or something? And I just I suddenly the scales from my eyes and its

switched off and I wanted to get better and I want to em in nepal the wealth and grow up and in a do what I could, but it was it did, it's for a little while and dumb enough to get quite serious by sixth form as a teenager, you were the only girl, doing maths and further maths at your comprehensive secondary school. How did your fellow students react to you? Well, I put it that I was teased, but I probably would be describing bullet these days. My problem was: I wasn't that great at math, which people might say. Why did I study double mass, but I venus I have already intimated. I like a challenge anyway, what As might after that was I I could have I to given up or aim. I could have worked out a way through it, and I tried the latter and there were twelve subjects on the syllabus and six was supposedly easy and then six were regarded as very difficult

So I realise that if I learned the hard sakes, I could predict the questions so very slowly. Over six times I most at six topics and I notice that the dynamic changed a bit the boys with compete with each other a lot, but because I then caught them not like how much the tortoise in the tortoise and the hare race. They sunny looked me differently and they would also ask me when you got stock, where I would ask them and everybody started chairing. So I like to think that was the first example of a bit of diversity. classroom and em. I feel that it was important lesson for me that actually things on equally impossible, but you do have to be calm about it and work out a strategy. Let's go to the music at your fourth disk, why we chose it. So this one is a dance track: pet shop, boys being boring

and in my younger years I said they love, don't think he reminds me of my time at cambridge university. I was lucky enough to go to that and I met richard my husband and we both like pet shop boys. This track was actually really. After we left, but to me the words in particular summary. if so much about young people and so there's a line in it where it talks about listen to people who open closed doors, and I try to do them.

Finally patch up boys and being boring. Taking you back to your days at cambridge steam, Helen, immoral. say so at eighteen. There. You are reading philosophy, while the than mathematics and you describe university life ass, a liberating in what way will not happen the sheltered upbringing, and suddenly there was people who were much more worldly to me and I was exposed to cambridge it's amazing debates- and I just was I

winning to me on graduating. You joined Schroders asset management company in nineteen. Eighty seven. What was the appeal of a career in wealth management? I honestly do not What I want to do, and friends of mine were applied to the city. and they encourage merely mostly men, their encouraging me- and I said, look you like writing you like talking you like numbers, you, you would enjoy So I was a bit of a leap into the unknown and I've really loved the people I met it showed is in fact my first interview with a man and a woman at the time. I thought that was completely normal: and now I realize it. The woman was very unusual to be working in a senior around the city and I came across the other, actually said: oh you, the reason why I enjoyed the city in issues so inspiring to me and then sent me me to to new york for two years. So are an an apprentice in new new york office. The company culture is something something is very important to you today tell me about what life was like there, then, so this was the time of wall street. The first movie greatest good everyone

the including myself wool pinstripe trouser, suits I'm, and I'm saying that embarrassed now that I went out and bought a trouser suit that had chalky stripe. and the women in the office some in the work quite a few, and they really call the shots? They were highly regarded. When I came back to london aim, I was a bit taken aback because I was the only woman in a team of sixteen and the corporate culture. Pretty would be very different too. I mean it seems funny now, but we had a morning meeting in london that started as eleven forty five a m. It would a role in and it was all very club ie and in a hierarchical. new york have on what every hour that they had. So yes, culturally, it was quite different and they were very, very few women, so it was quite difficult appeal So he came back to london. You wretched married, and you had your first child fits in ninety ninety one and then, once you are back at work, he didn't receive the promotion that you'd expected to what happened. I was eligible for this first permission.

I didn't get it and my two male colleagues joined the same time as me. They did, and I asked my boss, what did I need to do differently and he said: oh there's, nothing wrong with your performance, but there is a bit of doubt of your commitment with a baby. Now I just truly walked back. In that all I had made a way forward along five months, so I wasn't expecting that at all of its quite bewildered, maybe naively, I thought My gender would have absolutely nothing to do with how far can progress that really was the first taste of the inequality as it was in the city at the time and pour it gave me a bit of firing my belly about gem in trying to do something about that time for more music. Let's have your feet, disk, if you wouldn't mind so, my fifth disc is moon river and I've chosen the audrey hepburn version as she sang this in the movie breakfast at tiffany and she's

ways been an icon for me and a huge inspirational, not just because she so elegant, but did huge amount of humanitarian work and her later he is and just seem to be a very giving person, and this makes me think of the movies and what a wonderful person she seems to have been then I'm saying you in style you, rank were, yeah I'm your way. Audrey then performing noon river

dame Helena morrissey. You joined newton investment management as a fixed income fund manager in nineteen. Ninety four in two thousand and one we're offered the role of chief investment officer, but you are quickly made aware that your colleagues didn't support you. They didn't believe he had the requisite experience in the field, but they did see you as a leader they wanted you. It becomes seo. Instead, how did you react at the time? That is what I said yes and but then I called my husband and said: well, I'm not going to be the ceo was stopped, but the ceo instead and he said to me what does that job entail? And I honestly answered, while I'm not quite sure, but I did know that I really wanted to lead my colleagues which has been taken over by an american firms, which is why there had been some vacancies.

and I said yes when a lot of people would have said no and it wasn't that easy. I didn't have any training, I'd, never run a business and I also had five children, the youngest I just turned one two and three So this was a full on time in my life and there's no two ways about that. I'm probably a sensible person would have said no, but I don't regret it. How quickly did you become aware of the scale of the challenge we face

but almost immediately. Actually it was. I mean it was a real baptism of fire and I made loads of mistakes. I'll be the first to admit that, including on I think day, two are taking a call from a tabloid newspaper who had heard about my appointment and asked me lots of questions, and I freely gave lots of information and then, of course, the next day. My colleagues were hardly speaking to me and I hadn't even seen the newspaper and it was. It did rather diminish me a bed, you can learn from mistakes and if we are afraid of making those mistakes feel will never try anything and one of your favorite things is leap before you look. Why is that yeah? Because again, I think we're taught told so often the other way round. You know look and then- make your mind up, mr bit more leaping unless looking and and then be ourselves along the way be authentic. I went from being you know, a team members in doing ok, my career to being invited to become the chief executive.

Because I had learned my own style of delivery, my own style of dress. You know I had grown into that style. I hadn't had stopped looking over at what everybody else is doing, and I which branched out a bit in her book lean in sheryl, sandberg ceo of facebook says that women hold themselves back by their fear of not being liked and that our own discomfort with women as leaders can be a hindrance as well. To what extent has that been your experience in your career? So I think we often do hold us back for all sorts of reasons, and I'd be quite open about the fact that I know I liked to be light. I dont, like aggressive confrontation, at all- and I think that's been something that said we have had to work on and recognize it sometimes have to make unpopular decisions as a leader. I think that we also need to try to change the nature of what it means to be powerful and to be ineffective in denmark

yeah. I think this is where I met. I applaud what shows handbags almost seventy levels in terms of using her power to create a conversation about all of this, but I do feel that leaning into the status quo is not the answer that actually we should be contributing as women feminine characteristics took the empathy, dick listening, particularly collaboration and building consensus, and not having that's it abroad. The stereotype go macho, I'm telling you what to do approach to leadership, and how would you like to see workplace coaches change meaner to adapt to include women more easily? Well, I think the listening part. Very important. For example, if a chairing a meeting is not a question of just repeating things that we knew going into the meeting listening to the guy or woman who shouting loudest but actually skilfully drawing out the opinions about the internet, a person of me

You show that you start the media by saying that this is what we already know. Let's not just repeat that, I'm in so many meetings a complete waste of time they just showcases form people who already powerful and accompany was that she I'm interested in getting the right. de the right answers, and then people feeling very involved in wanting to execute them make them happen, tend to take a break for some music. Your sixth, this today, What are we gonna hear so now we're coming right up to the present, and I have chosen the clementines first single calm down now, the clementines on my eldest daughter, florence and her husband, Benjamin and both of them have occurred in the past as solo artists. This was released before, just as the current of ours was done,

if cause more widespread anxiety, said the title calm down. It seems to be particularly apt, but I just have, as he has resonance for me, because this is my one daughter and son in law, but also I love the the the the intent of the song and the talking about calming down within a couple, but I think it can apply in so much of our lives. Miss apply in full,

the clementines and calm down your daughter and son in law, his band helena morrissey by the time you were ceo, as you mentioned, utah to five of your children, including flow who we just heard from you were working full time. You've said that you and richard had a walton esque fantasy about having a large family at what what was the fantasy and and tell me a little bit about the reality. So both of us, from quite nuclear families eyes. I have one sister average that has two sisters. Both of us had friends had large happy chaotic families around us, so we had this shared romantic vision, just as we already, but we had intended to stop at five and then clearly we did not progress to leave it at that as a weapon for further children after viceroy. Yes, it's coming later overshot. Spite

one considerable amount, so I feel we should. We should explore a little as six was a happy accident, and then we had four girls and two boys and my husband one day said: oh that'd be great, have another son, so we gambled on that and we did have a boy. So I think that satisfactorily explains seven or at least logically explained seven. Then I became im pregnant and accidentally. Obviously, a slightly chaotic theme is running through this and and I had a miscarriage- and I was forty I think- and I decided I had to have another baby, an amazon, that's quite common doesn't mean an excuse, and so we had our aid and then nine? This is ultra embarrassing out, but she she was just meant to be. She snuck her way through all the defenses and we had some interesting conversations, but when I, when I announced earlier that I was betting another one to richard, because he was emphatic that day, he said well, no more babies and I had I knew I was

pregnant, and I was thinking how it's all quit I'm going to have to anyway. I wouldn't have it any other way. She is a wonderful large, slightly larger than life character and, as I say, smashed away through fences and obviously you know you had this kind of good natured boy, goodnight, momma or no proper fantasy yeah. Tell me about the reality there. Tell him. I'm not happy chaos, so will it has been chaotic and mostly its happy and we love it when we all gathered together in its bit more like a banquet than just a meal, but in over the time account the two grandchildren and now- and you know, three eldest son got partners, so that means of out she gonna have to quickly up there was sixteen sixteen of us so yeah that is quite a full table, but we wouldn't have any other way.

And an I've always prioritizes well getting home for family meal times, because that's been a very important part of our family life in people's mindsets. We want. How can you do that when you ve got your now is, but it's important to know what's important in your own life, a think tank for some moments like? What's next so we're now onto another song from benjamin clementine called condolence and in it he talks about giving condolence to fear and insecurity, and when I first heard this I thought wow. This is almost I feel now that there is a moment when you're on top of all of that- and I'm not saying I never suffer from it, but my main focus in life is on positive things, and this song just seems to me to capture in credit, is credit, as I was angry with you, but it's a really defiant way, and I want to give my condolences to fear and insecurity.

I'm sorry guys down at my party's condolence buffoons Are your son in law dame Helena morrissey the mercury prize winning benjamin clementine? So, of course you are hugely successful professionally. I wonder how your personal notions of what success means of changed over the years. Oh, I think it very much about doing more than in a job you I am proud is

I'm gonna is that word. I am proud of what thirty percent cups achieved, because I think it has made a difference and it has changed They not the conversation but change actions, but success of us, if you have a family, is very much about seeing them and healthy and thriving as well, but richard may he has done such a huge, mountains of bringing up nine happy people and devoting himself to that, and if something like that is not important, I know this year's important. Never must say it's important. So why do we not consider that when we are assessing people's value, I do feel got to be more honest about the fact that success has many many facets. And real success is much more than a big job title. And how long do you expect to be able to maintain that drive? That was first evident when you were a brownie back in the day. One of the wonderful thing

about life. Today is today's competence into properly retired, I'm already as opposed to what could a portfolio career and I'm? very much involved in work on diversity as well, and I can't really see I mean it be wonderful, it didn't need doing anymore, wouldn't it, but I already see myself ever complete retiring, at least as long as I have my help, will you be retiring to the island shortly, but before you do that we have one more track to hear it's your last disc today. What's it going to be dame Helena, morrissey so this is kenya, west's god is an I really admire. What can? U S has done talking about his religious conversion. I think he's he's. Obviously, a very controversial figure in some terms of some of his views, but this is what diverse thinking is I'm a religious person, and you know the song is played in our house most nights. We have little tiny little chapel and ah

and children son this at our car service, a christmas tree, the wow the The way this space there can, u s and God is sampling, James Cleveland and the southern california community. Quite so it's time to stu away on your desert island team helena morrissey. What do you think? The first thing that you do when you get there is.

I think, of some reflection, a minimalist, I'm gonna have a lot of time to reflect on it high time to time. That would be quite a luxury of fast. I'm sure I get bored my company at seven point, but reflection will will give you the books were company. Luckily, the bible, the complete works of shakes, we are in a book of your choice. What would you like, I think, I'll need some laughter and here Well, I been on the island by myself, so I'm at she, assuming I can't take the holes of compendium. I chosen pg wodehouse's much obliged jeeves. It would make it off, which would be important. I can also give you a luxury, to make island life more enjoyable. What would you like I'm going for a grand piano, because I would definitely not have any excuses for not learning can again would I and finally, if you had to save just one of your eight discs, which would it be, is gonna be my first one, George Harrison's,

my sweet lord because of the image it conjures up in my mind, of my entire family, seeing on a very very happy day dame Helena morrissey. Thank you very much for letting us here your desert island discs. Thank you. The I'm sure helena, will very quickly fine tune her skills as a pianist on the island, and I hope you enjoy our conversation. There are many castaways from the world of business and ff announcing the desert island discs back catalogue, including so Mervyn king former governor of the bank of england, nicholas lick diminution seek an marianna motto: carter you can find all of those edition on BBC sands and, of course, a whole host of programmes from musicians to comedians scientists to novelists to keep you going in these most difficult times next week I am delighted to say my guest will be the actor and stuff

of the? U S, series succession, Brian Cox do join us than previously sounds Music, radio broadcasts from the one village behind the mounting. Imagine your living a very different life. On the other side, The world, your fear, I cannot do anything, if silently in the shadows stay home bring can make, for. And then someone take your child disappears. in the night and the little girl. And you can stay silent, any longer and you'll do whatever it takes, travel thousands of miles across the globe to find your missing daughter. This is my time I look at it

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