BBC sounds music radio podcasts hello, the- and this is the desert island discs. Podcast. Every week I ask my guest to choose the eight tracks book and luxury they want to take with them. If they were castaway to a desert island and for right reasons the me It is shorter than the original broadcast. I hope you enjoy listening. I my castaway this week is the painter peter toy. one of britain's most successful living artists. He was born in edinburgh, grow and trinidad in canada and trained in london. His itinerant backstory once led him to death,

I've himself as a nowhere. Painter and his creative path stands at odds with many of his contemporaries, while back in the night, nineties works like damien hearst shock, Tracy, amazon, unmade bed and steed mcqueen short films captured headlines and prizes. His devotion to the paintbrush set him apart and I paid off his atmospheric mysterious and often huge paintings blend the scene, the remembered and they imagined with influences from everywhere. His life has taken him. His work is revealed by critics and has been likened to the greatest artists of the past, including bruegel and matisse is also prized by collective setting records and fetching tens of millions at auction. He, though, is more interested in something harder to quantify. He says I am trying to create something that is questionable, something that is difficult, if not impossible, to put into words peter doing welcome to design a discs, regular, more trouble, so you're trying to capture something intangible

I mean that's a tricky place to start peter. How do you know when you are on the right track? Is it about a feeling? Isn't it instinctive? sue, the making really not really like. I have a vision and then I seek out that vision through painting and drawing a what. Maybe, if I was a musician, I be one of those musicians who spent years between albums gesture twiddling knobs, and I know that you often we and say works that you ve worked on for a while and then put to one side but average painting how painting how long would you say spend on it. I don't know, I think you ve compressed the time. Sometimes it could be ten years between starn finnish bolivia compressed the time of actual so brush two camps

It might only be a couple of weeks. None of your recent paintings at the alpinists features. A ischia dress still at like a harlequin, is carrying his skis on his back, and it is a it's a huge piece that I think about three meters tall. Something either have to deal with the practicalities of working on such large pieces because that's that's pretty usual, for you turn them upside down. Lay them on the floor. Use a ladder they re long brush. They just all those sorts of things ready, and I know that your great collector of a farmer that can often go into that the works of art that you create postcards photographs is your stewed

are full of all of that kind of thing bric, a brac. You know, music ideas is full of quite a lot of records, quite a lot of as you describe postcards and cuttings and things, but I'm always drawn back to relatively few the alpinists, for instance. I mean, I suppose, could I bought chamonix. I think when I was nineteen vail picture of a man hiking above the mountains, and I've used that image. Quite a quite a number times, but this is the first time I've used it instead of like a large former, and I have always listened to music yeah have never really been able to paint without music. The painter can be boring. It can be also very, very frustrating, hence maybe listening to music while stomping. So speaking, of which I think we'd better get to your first desk, if you don't mind Peter, what's it going to be while the first escaped chosen is by a turn it out in our. Called the mighty sparrow real name- slinger, francisco

and as a child, moving to travel at the age of two through the ages of seven, his music was extremely present. The household. I grew up in my mom and dad they were. They were not trinidad and they were they were scots, but nevertheless, all the records in their collection at the time were absorbers cause. That's what everyone was eaten. I'm a particular foreigners sparrow in them. This is a song. I remember, because my father used to sing it quite a lot and it's his sort of critique of the colonial education system, Rudy, add new again

small with memories labour legitimate, showed me a lot more ministers were long and mighty. Sparrow down as the man in the van so PETE, it's arguable in edinburgh to Marian David, but when you add to your family moved to trinidad, it was your doubts job. I think that had taken the family there. What did he do for living? My father, is an accountant, his first jobs in a nylon factory in wales, and I don't think he was perfectly happy there. He was constantly moving yellows added, she feed more to move and he saw job advertised in the newspaper and trinidad and he took the train to london.

the interview not thinking he was going to get it anyway. The next thing you know we on the on the boat, the columbine, to turn it off. He had quite a kind of steady day job, but I think he was quite creative, pass it on the side, lots and lots of creative hobbies. He made his own paintings is much lower than I am even, but he was good, but he just didn't realize it himself. I don't think really. When I show people images of his paintings are kind of quite astounded. Actually, why did he paint? What would we see if he showed his kind of abstractions, based on things that he'd seen quite sir tender images of like a war like quite unusual things, to paint for someone who who painted just for themselves really. He was very, very interested in what I did and I think that maybe he, and by proxy learned from seeing what I didn't from the journey that my my work led me on. He also got me out of that you're, the eldest of four, I think peter

tell me about your mom Mary, which she creative to know. My mother was extremely slow and still is summoned she's in her eighties now, but she working She went to drama school in edinburgh in the late fifties and worked consider all life. It's fair decided to introduce a lot of young people in the world of theatre. And what about you as a little boy? Would we have pegged you as a future artist? I think I drew a lot as a child and I was always interested in being in the art class. I was never particularly good, but I was keen I thought I would do something more practical, like maybe working in theatre sat sore that everything Tom you bite and spending your early years in trinidad, because I'm imagining that must have been a very kind of you lee stimulating environment. All at incredible vivid wildlife obviously got to see boats, big part of ireland, life and, and both of those things are recurring. Themes in your word did those

wings capture your imagination. It's funny cause. I left trinidad in sixty six to move to canada. It never really left me. I mean the house that I grew up in was was full of paintings by trinidadian artists. My dad was an avid amateur collector and he he bought paintings local artists and my father was also an amateur photographer and he took lots and lots of photographs slides actually, and they are always in carousel, so they're easy to put on projector sorry. I had a mixture of my own memory and what I was reminded by by by what was around when I was I went to trinidad in two thousand so much but came back to me. I realized it wasn't just my memory. It was like the smells it was. I just felt very, very familiar. Even though hadn't been there thirty three years, I felt comfortable there stunned phoenix piece of music peter. This is your second choice today. Why couldn't take it to your island

those in many many many dylan songs, but I love this song because it's it's. I come the opening to a body of work, it's kind of quite haunting. It's sad puts me in a in a mood with china, which I like, and it kind of all, citing tells you not to be bothered about, while the noise noises going on around you, at some, the first track from Babylon self portrait, again hmm well I suppose again the all retired horses written by Bob.

And some by hilda harris albertini, robinson and marie first, you, it so Peter if the family moved again, when you were seven at to canada, quite a contrast to life in the caribbean of imagining. How did you all settling was a little bit different from your first being this new person at school and, having probably like a strange accent, you know we had the most awful close like these british breaches with loops underneath the feet? I mean we soon adopted it after sort of being having your face rubbed in the sand and the playground many times, and I definitely felt like a foreigner when I arrived there and it took me awhile assimilate, and you had to learn how to do things like skate lever means getting. Since there are three. What did you make? It climate did you embrace it always? It must have been pretty intense. Coming from where you ve been living, while a member sing. It happened to me with some my first winter in canada and I was we were led out

recess it was an unusual went to us. It was early december. It was still adding snowed and was freezing freezing cold. And start to snow during the recess and these big flakes her coming down. I was watching this snowflake was once post is happening and landed on the metal railing. So went down liquid off, because I thought and then my tongue, star, mainly I did pull myself off like that and remove a big chunk of skin. I never did that again. No, is that you became became so interested in snow seems have reached in assigning traumatic, first introduction when you twelve bit even you younger brother was sent to boarding school in school. And how do you remember your time now? It was like being sent into another century.

hair down below my shoulders. I'd never gone to an all boys school before I'd, never worn a uniform before it was a real shock to the system, the discipline, the maleness of it, and I wanted to leave. As you know, as soon as I could I mean I gave me a taste for music, in some ways a member one when the first rocks music single pajama came out. I was ascend into town by where the other boys to buy it in a week loud watch top of the pops. So I had that experience which I wouldn't have out of my head. Peter, you money. to get a cell phone to canada by the time you were sixteen, but I know that you didn't really find your feet again at school after that, what was going on with you at that time not only that I moved back to canada, but I moved the family moved from quebec to toronto and we moved right to the center of the city and we went to the the local high and centers. It was a huge school. I think it's like through enough thousand people there actually got very

excited to be in a city for the first elo living the first time. I remember riding my bike up and down young street, which is a mainstay in toronto, just looking at all the shops and the bars and the clubs and and just wanting sort of to enjoy that school seemed like bye, bye, okay, so the lower was there of rebellion and wildness. Did you in which we all indulged yeah, we all indulge in that as as a schoolboy, I indulge in a way too much which meant school was a bit of a blur I was getting into music. I was getting into the things that the musicians sang about, and so of course you want to experiment really well. None of that surprises me, given what you went on to do creatively peter, but the next chapter kind of does, because it's seventeen you go to work on a gas rake. Why did you take the job? Because, when I stopped going to school after grade ten, my father said to me

a tree. The house like, I will tell you, have to have to work. I think he probably got a bit fed up with me as suggested that I went out west end them. He had a few contacts out there, so I went out with a friend and it was about a week or so we had a job on the gas rig, but it did really change mayor how it was very dangerous work and yet keep your wits about you, because of who was around as well in a guys would come to work, probably having drag all afternoon before they came to them. Shift just incredible characters my first hand, the job I went to the local farm was actually landward drilling on, I said dumb to him in a wood it would you if I slept in your barn, I could give you some money back sleeping upon him working on the rig, and he said: oh no, he said he can stay in the house under they, let me stay in the house and I was out larger and then after work on the risks we would go to

It feels and round up the cattle an eye on horse, and that was just normal time for some music peter you're, the disc. Today, what are going to be have chosen a track by hank williamses, an artist I've loved for as long as I can remember Damn chosen the track. Hunky talk him, because a kind of reminds me of the time on the risks and going out into town no night soft, beautiful son, the

williams and hunky tonkin. So peter doing You eventually enrolled at wimbledon school of thought. You were twenty, I think, and at first you were taking a foundation year. Nineteen, seventy nine up! Why did you want to study in london? I was very interested in punk and particularly post punk music, and I think that's really. What sort of was the draw to come to london? I thought that the theater was probably where I I might end up as soon discovered once I was there that I was much more drawn to painting and the world of painters, I got encouragement by certain tutors and actually one was some a technician in the etching department who was radiant blues music. He source of the work I was doing. I remember him saying is that charlie Parker you're drawing and I said, yeah it is, and I was quite pleased the recommendation was and then other tutors incredibly generous with their time. One of them, suggested I like say martins

We're looking around and feeling quite intimidated by not just the word was gone, but just the way people looked as well. I guess that the punk seen as is ready In full flow there's the emergence of all that very interesting kind of post, punk, new romantic diy culture. For me, I think you are the blitz club, for instance, was still just about one of us was open and then there's lots of sort of offshoots ghali's, little clubs, Oliver so that was the kind of like the crucible of the new romantic that there's probably only tool to people in the world who dressed in that way or not. You could say that, like, as everyone was quite individual, but probably thirty of them,

way more than I remember the first morning at ST martin's, when I arrived there going to the the canteen and there was a table of four of the most prominent practitioners of that art, and it was extraordinary to think they'd come on the bus like that, we gotta make something into the music pizza. It's your fourth choice. Next, what have you gone for the track that I've chosen is one that I think remains as fresh today as it was when I first heard it back in nineteen. Seventy nine it's by linton, Kwesi Johnson, is called want fuego rave, and why have you chosen this track in particular, because it really reminds me of what london was like then you know it was a tough rough city and when I knew was ducking and diving desperate to try and find a place to live, we lived in housing associations, you know legalised squats. I think the song says it all, but it says it in this kind of gentle way that when you then

looks to talk about a very tough world ready and I was I was walking down the road, the windows there, You know one figure wave, lynton crazy, johnson, soapy detroit after drain from sin minds. Did you have a plan about how you gonna make is in office, nor the good in those days, you're expected gone for the studio of a job and then just sort of people working party for decades. The memory

hoped. Obviously that would get a break in you got yourself a job. You will work in his address at the english national opera. I was literally timorous, war from say, mourns or teghmus run of your life. Quite a lot of mischief went on. I not as much mischief stagehands got up to look laylock nailing, nor of ask colleagues to the floor and hiding his russia's thermos of russian t, surely not at his leg. Warm is his very re wholly like rumours that any undermine its so their offspring there's a lot of hygiene around nor for some reason, but he also he really was very fond of the stage has one time it was. The penultimate performance was a matinee of patricia national actually was dance the lead. I was actually dressing with a friend them characters within the market. Seen one other. The movement group hadn't turned up, so they needed someone to take his place, and my friend hayden was and the same shape and size since they stuck him in his craig sellers costume.

And we're all watching from the side of staging thinking. This is absolutely areas and down I wanted to go on as well and say that the dancers made me up in a costume. They felt like business customers, accustomed napoleonic soldiers, costume and a member I made of double, at the bar mustache, add a bit of a have a bit of the bear costume and we went on in the next scene and this man came up to me. Whilst we were on stage and tapped me on the shoulder said he asked me who I was so, who are you and he said, I'm a choreographer and so on randal state run down to the changing washed off, wash off all the make up and how the costumes and was standing at our set of ST close undecided stage denies it. We were just had just been watching, didn't quite being the plea But they re thought there was some sort of his treasure sabotage production or maybe get to nor ever something. and so we were duly

sent on our way, you dismiss, we were dismissed, but then rehired about a month later, when the when the opera came back, because we we're very friendly with a man who ran the the wardrobe department surround this time, pizza that the first wave of the young british artists got going late, eighties and painting wasn't really part of the the trend and put the conversation. In fact, it was deemed unfashionable in some circles. What was your response, and what was happening in the art world at the time I think, was to kind of go the other way to go into the personal rather than the manufactured. I felt I couldn't compete. I didn't, I wouldn't have felt comfortable making the type the type of work that I was seeing. Them is that's a very general term because you know, of course, of so many different types of work being made, but you know I knew I wanted to be a painter, and so I I went into sort of in back into my own biography. Really it has to be said that

but two and a half years back in canada prior to starting my course, a chelsea. I never really planned it, but I realized that maybe this was something that could become a bum, a way of working for me in other in canada. There right landscape tradition- that sure that whole sort of way of working wasn't really known here too much it's time to take your next track, Peter your fifth choice today. What have you done for we'll have chosen the track by I must have flash and the furious five a very well known when the message back in the day. Nineteen eighty one never really heard anything quite like it really telling the sort of tragic urban The story is kind of mesmerizing when it was released. I remember just hearing it everywhere. So to this day, I, when I hear the house signs up in the back of my neck, for me, I think, as a painter two at the time, it really changed the way I thought about making paintings making art collaging.

taking photographs. I got the slide. Libraries aimed at say mountains and take out slides, and I reject the mother. Canvassing traced, things out, gimme, a kind of liberty that I didn't before when I was just wrong with my own, my own, My own imagination that sense of sampling remake sing building something had less obsolete it's bad for my mother's t v says you wanted too much it's just not healthy or mature. The daytime dallas at night can even see the game or the sugar ray fight The ring ma and scandal wife with have not got a education double digit deflate. I can take the train. Despite the station Kostiei, the normal tat can stop journal down my second earlier if my brain cancer brain. Sometimes I think I might hijack a plane. The call goes to the its grandmaster flash and the furious five painted doggie went back to canada for awhile with your first wife, but

and painted film scenery for a little. While, I think you are stabbing europe career at the time. What kind of sad where you creating back, then I got a hooked up with this guy who am specialty was being movie horror. I guess he would harm to paint sets that resembled degraded in tears of houses and dick, like a member of one of them, was a room that look like a police station that I've been painters is lighting, thirties and that That's it was kind of effect, painting ready, but got it taught me to use paints a big scale. Broadway and it kind came in useful. I never thought it would, but it it did actually change the way that I ended up making paintings, because before that I was kind of making painters were quite small brushes and when I returned to art school, but as in my early thirties, I I had a different approach: seasoned material. I became interested on painting like the sensation of what it's like to be in.

a forest when it snowing see, went back to london in europe if it is to do now may at the chelsea school of arts, and your exhibition show their featured to some of your canada inspired paintings their price two thousand pounds each. I am now some of your most sought after works, I think swamp told the thirty million pounds in twenty twenty one. How does it feel when you hear about your paintings being solved without much money or color like that's some else and away add up hanging in our housing association, flood kings, cross delivery of a busy took up the whole war africa of close to a year, and then someone who had seen it the show chelsea. I'm bought it the great underpants And then they sold it and then at the time was was it was huge, but it was. It was kind of life changing to them I don't know I mean I have. I have mixed feelings about the secondary market. Really. I do think that artists should get something

royalty in the way that other art forms do. there's, not much. You can do about it really, and I don't you know I don't. I don't really want to do anything about it, because it's all part of it, I guess he went back to trinidad in two thousand and two and the period following that would become a pivotal, I am in your creative life. How long did you initially plan to stay while I originally went two thousand to a residency. I pretty much knew by the end of that month that I wanted to come back and was thinking that I wanted my own family, my children, to experience some of what I'd experienced because they left such a mark on me. Really they were. growing up in central london in Ghana, becoming quite street wise at the age of ten. I thought so I thought be quite good for them to experience another strong culturally and what was it. I can't that being inspired meeting so many great people having such good friendships. The culture turnout is a place at scott

Very, very strong cultural sounded a really need to look outside themselves to be quite happy, culturally time some music peat as your sixth choice today, what he taken to the island next, I think, really from the time that I was some late teenager on I've always loved club music. I thought I should include one track the reminded me of music from that world, but I also love hurry. The franklin chosen, many tracks by her. Maybe this isn't everyone's favoured risa, but I actually love it reaches it jumped, the I again

I got a job jump to a wreath of franklin. So Peter doin when you finish a painting after many months and you've poured your life and soul into it. I wonder how it feels at once. It's been sold and you no longer get to see it every day. Is it hard to say goodbye or the new grip? lying certain paintings, I'm happy when they go to public places. But then again you know sometimes I just end up in storage, but you know, I think, that one of these, but making paintings its it's good to have examples. What you do in your own studios. He you know he he you can see. They've actually done something in the past Your laced exhibition thereon paintings, which include your second wife, your son and one of your daughters to you.

father of eight. I wonder what it means to you to have your family as subjects and how do they feel about it? Do they enjoy setting my family are very close to my work. My wife put us for the longest while being the person is. Most connect to my work is much so that I would be sharing the making. The painting, as you know like as at its happening, really say, she's a condescending boards is partners, as my kids to her are interested in them. They would come to the studio agenda. what I'm doing and they ve always got comments decision. I have always far aside the feedback goes. There could be quite critical here, which is is a good thing. You know that, because in a way you it is important to have another that applies on what you're doing here you back to london in you twenty one has been a changed, your creative focus. You know leaving true. That was a big, a big deal for us. Also arrived ternata empty studio, because all my work was working properly, I was in trinidad and so had to sort of

work in this empty space with bright New canvasses and solely ones, going and you ve got things referred. Who, unlike. What kind of message to dig into that I find I can be crew for want of a better word, I say so to make. a good while it close to a year to really get going? I do, mr that nobody was closer was having internet and new york and ensure that was we're hours away same time? Zone was from london, it's very different. Really, it seems psychologically seemed a long way away over this big ocean. Peanuts. Have some music? You seventh choice today or panelled emits election. What are we going to hear what I wanted to choose attract by craft work, partly because what an amazing banned, but also because a fun. The time that I have said in germany. Teaching is a kind of like a bit of a Hamas took to that. For me and also I got to know, flying schneider. Who was one of the forms of craft work. When I sent us a dwarf,

My special person than the special musician- this is crap works. Computer love People are crushed work so peter. Like you are one of the world's most successful living artists at that success deadly to very strange chapter in twenty. Sixteen someone took you to courts. claiming that you'd, given them a painting of yours. You said the incident never took place. What actually happened? First of all, these people came to

he said that they had a painting that I made when I was seventeen? Would I like to see it? I said yeah, why not knowing that I hadn't made any paintings on canvas until many years later, but I just at the time I was just cute what what do they got type thing and they sent this image of this painting. It was a sort of desert scene- and I just said nice painting but sorry not by me, and it was signed. Pete dougie, like Dio ige, he with an e on the end, after that they became more and more persistent and threatening that they knew this. stuff about my past and dumb. This whole story about how I I've been in prison and thunder bay ontario when I was eighteen or so, and I made this painting whilst in prison

and sold it to one of the prison officers to be clear. You'd never been in prison that no to be clear, I've never been to prison, but I had to prove that I hadn't been in prison, and that was really difficult by the proof where I was between the age of surf seventeen and going into nineteen or whatever, obviously pre computer. The dutch judge allowed this to go to trial and it seems like nothing, but it just became. In this strange kafka. S kind of like episode and by legal seem actually discovered the person who made the painting who died about eighteen months before we we found him become tougher his sister, we got in touch with the man who taught him painting in prison that thought it was really interesting, like the life of of doggy was kind of fascinating, much harder and tougher than the life I lived, I mean he tom at fourteen lived on the road all over north America and Canada was arrested in the at times and ended up in thunder bay and made this painting? The thing I really objected to was the fact that

because I had a similar name and because my painting soldier x amount of dollars, They wanted me to attach mind, to another artist work raising him erasing. It really was very greedy. He won the case I want the case. You have caused a huge amount of money, but we did when it s my back a costume away peter. If had quite romantic life. Is we ve heard? I wonder whether that will prepare for life on a desert island a definite likes, into my own, but you know I definitely miss family and friends. I could spending a good week or so probably how we are practical skills, not too bad. You know I can light fires and stuff or that the basics that I play better than basic, but you know modesty prevents you from saying build a house. I am not going to build like a sort of like a a cabinet that will let you have one more track before you go. If you don't mind, pizza see a final choice today. What have you gone for? Well, I've chosen a track by another trinidadian musician the value who sang under the name of shadow and was

that I discovered when I moved back to turn in the early two thousands I said that I was unaware of his work before that in the thirty three years that I was away but I soon became very interested in his work and he painted him before he's featured in a painting of yours. I paid him a few times here, I would say, is definitely my favorite musician from trinidad, and so choose. This truck is called away way out.

Where does that baby shadow, and way way out so peter No, I'm going to send you away to a desert island, I'm giving you the bible, the complete works if shakespeare and they can take another. of your own. What would you like to cheese? I would choose very large sketchbook, having read the bible for very long time, so I am, I sort of fellow get into that, and likewise we shakespeare, so that it was plenty

reading. If I want to read, if I'm going to be strand the silent for a long time, I may be able to teach myself to draw finally row pizza. Luckily, for you there is precedent for someone taking a sketchbook Emmylou Harris has gone before you to her island with a sketchbook I'm going to allow me that what about luxury item I would take something that is luxurious, but also very practical I need to survive not like to be practical. It's gotta be low luxury item. pleasure or sensory stimulation if it, if its leading into the work of art or a cultural artifact rather than a practical item, then I'll take a very special samurai designed cutlass mountain can't argue without that's definitely, work of art to deal I am now going to ask what you can view of the data and, finally, with One track of the eight that you shared with us today. Would you rush to save from the waves if you had to probably the shadows all wear out here, and why makes me think of certain people- and I just love love his voice,

He did so I thank you very much for letting us hear your desert Anna discs. Thank you. Hello. My conversation with Peter we castaway many artists, including tracy, emmon, sonya, voice and stigma. Queen. You can find these episodes in a desert, island discs programme archive and through being see, sounds the studio manager for today's programme with Sarah hotly that produces with Sarah taylor, clare, bartlett and TIM Banu. Next time my guest will be the former footballer jill scot I do who will join us Hello, I'm brain comes on robin ends.

welcome to this very professional trail for the infinite monk cage summer run- and this is just gonna- be information. We will be talking about wasps these super volcano. With mushrooms and sharks ancient dna, and are we what we will be joined by Harry hill, Chris Van tillich, and then will bond rachel parents doctor and professor in that very good? the new series of infinite monkey cage. If you're in the uk, you can hear it all right now Well, BBC sounds we nearly did a very professional trailer with another aspect is sir spoilt I think we're gonna get told off again,