« The Dropout

The Beginning of the End

2021-11-16

In this episode, we hear from two Theranos lab directors -- one who never met Elizabeth or stepped foot into the company’s lab, another who ultimately voided more than 50,000 Theranos tests after a damning government inspection. And we hear from an irate investor who says Elizabeth Holmes cut off communication with him when he asked for basic information about the company. Plus, 10 weeks into the trial, with only 24 witnesses out of a possible 181 on the government’s initial list having taken the stand, we hear a surprising update from prosecutor Jeffrey Schenk: This week might be the prosecution’s last before it rests its case.  

This is an unofficial transcript meant for reference. Accuracy is not guaranteed.
Previously, on the drop out, we heard from a man with deep connections to many of the central player, said Elizabeth Orbit and learned that fake Pfizer memo wasn't the only document, Baroness falsified, the defence might have been able to wiggle their way out of one of the report's, but now that there's two of em that's a hard battle for them to contest this week we hear from two thereunto slap directors, one who never met Elizabeth or set foot in the company's lab forever strength was only column of ever come across her another who, similarly boy did over fifty thousand therein owes test after a day government inspection and the guy minced most fired up witness yet, and I read investor who says Elizabeth HOMES cut off communications when he asked for basic information, takes the stand: now some way say he just
last a million dollars? I'm sure he's angry and no one would talk to him, but we contrast that, with almost all the other government witnesses who, for a variety of reasons, were very calm very composed on the witness stand and really didn't seem to harbour that kind of anger that he certainly showing from ABC audio. This is the drop out Elizabeth homes on trial, I'm Rebecca Jarvis episode, thirteen the beginning of the end. Over the course of ten weeks we ve heard from twenty four of the one hundred eighty one witnesses on the government's list. Germs journalists, the public, maybe even Elizabeth herself and repeated. The end was nowhere in sight.
Following last week's testimony, pro the Jeffrey Shank, delivered a surprising update. This may be the prosecutions last week before at rest, its case. A clearer university la professor Ellen Crates Burke was surprised as the rest of us, but said The timeline actually makes a lot of sense. Will. I think the government is looking to try and get this case to the jury as soon as possible, because looking at two alternates laughed work, coming to the holidays. We're covert pandemic. They do not want to lose jurors and have this case end up in a mistrial once the prosecution rest. The ball is in the defences. Court will we eventually here from Elizabeth Herself crates Burg. dubious. I can't Imagine the defence is gonna put her on. With one caveat, she is someone who has been very successful over many years in convincing people to her
point of view, and I am sure there is part of her that would like to be able to sit there and look at the jury and be able to tell her side of the story from a lawyers perspective I just can't imagine that they want to put her on the stand. we soon know, but for the moment prosecution continues to press ahead, reinforce patterns it using jurors two more scientists to testify that they witnessed lapses in their noses lab frustrated investors and driving home the point. Elizabeth was the one calling the shots, the prosecution kick things off by calling lab director Doktor Lynette Sawyer to the stand. She was not on the government's original witness list, but she was added. It seems in response to that offences. Cross examination of a witness we heard from a few weeks ago. Dermatologists turned their nose lab director, Doktor Senor Dhawan Juan Recall in November twenty fourteen therein,
It was in a bind lab direct Doktor Adam rose, indoor, pet quit and the company, scrambling to find a replacement Sonny Boy Ahwahnee, the company seo well at the time, called in favour asking his, friend dermatologist of fifteen years, to briefly fill in until they found a permanent replacement doktor to one who is legally. Qualified to be a lab director agreed in his first eight months at their nose. Doin would set foot in the lab just twice and would meet Elizabeth for the first time. Ten months was tenure during government audit but as we learned in Doktor Taiwan's cross examination, there was a other lab director working at thereunto stirring much of the same period dwell said, he'd never met this person couldn't even recall her name deposition with the US, he see it see Sonny couldn't neither or the other loud directors of theirs,
after Mr Rose and left behind. A and other gentlemen unable to build upon as a lab director. We also had other consultant who was called director the time for the map. First, mammals, Jeanette Africa, Lastly, the LE nad. Now, Jeanette Sawyer first came on board when sunny made a call to laboratory consulting services, a consult firm that, among other things, helps company is fine, lab specialists. The concern and see led by Jerry Hearst recommended Doktor Sawyer we spoke to her first about the experience, I contacted the net inserting on being contact by their at all. They want a tab laughter after which a bit should talking to them. The answer was yes: pursuing testified. She then spoke to Sunny who told her there are no needed a two to three month filler until they had another director who is going to be coming on. Doktor soil agreed
came on board right around the time. Doktor dawn was hired from rehearse perspective. Nothing about the process, seemed unusual at that boy, so I went ahead and negotiated her monthly retainer signed a contract, and then she became the officially there louder. After initially it was some pretty straightforward. You know she appeared to be comfortable with whatever it was. They were telling her about their laboratory operation, how communism for companies like air- and I was too are these temporary lab directors, as opposed to more full time roles. Very common go ass majority or the labs that we work with, especially the startup labs rely on part time contracts, laboratory directors to provide those services, in his ass. He seed opposition reiterated this as well. Lab directors is not required to do. How do people upon
as a matter of fact, up until recently in California, lab director could be an object of an infinite number of lives. Now I think it's five, while doktor to one was taking back, see barely visiting the lab himself. Doktor swear wasn't doing much more. In fact, doktor sort, testified she never once set foot in sight of a fairer, knows, lab or even There are no building. She could barely name any thoroughness, employees and told the court she only ever communicated with three people while she work there. first time she ever laid eyes on. Elizabeth in person was right there in the courtroom. The two had never spoken. Doctors. Lawyers only job it seemed was too electronically sign off on standard operating procedures are also peace you're. Sawyer testified that she didn't have a person that she could talk to about issues she had with some of those s harpies. She was basically being
ass to doc. You sign documents without being able to added them without being able to check them, investigate them or talk to anyone about them and, like Mr De Roo on wasn't really involved in running the lab two of them were really document seiners. Doctors We are also testified. She never saw farragos device and it never her of their noses blood testing device, the Edison or various other pieces of the company's proprietary technology, including its nature. Nanotech Aigner is com in that a proprietor. Every device, one of the main things that accompany wants to be known, war is not known to the lab director overseeing things, a certainly potentially could be very problematic. Absolutely yeah and based on doktor swears knowledge of the company it was.
Her understanding that there are only perform tasks on traditional after year proved blood analyzes, as in Third party machines remember this was twenty. Fourteen there are no was already testing real life patience and Walgreens partially on its own devices soil, said she had no knowledge of this. Is it impression that Baroness was doing something other than running blood tests on ordinary after year proved machines and ordinary after prove tests. Computer Robert Leech asked no doctor swear, replied lead showed a list of the twelve test. Their nose was using its device for and asked after swear at the time You were the lab director. You had no idea that there are no was using its device to test for these twelve correct doctor where replied, lab kids, did Jerry Hearst says this would be highly unusual and would have put
Doktor Sawyer. In a very difficult position help I'm a matter or troubling. Is it that there are NOS, didn't, let their land director know they were performing some of their tasks? on their own devices. That's very, very problematic, because you know she's, as director has the fiduciary duties on liability of the laboratory operation so for a company to keep anything from their director, that would be Serious in my opinion, as it I'm at their nose, progressed Doktor Sawyer told the court. She grew increasingly uncomfortable with the way things were done. She said she had no wait a voice concerns if they arose. Did you feel like you were being given the information that you needed to do. Your assignment prosecutor, Liege asked no doctor swear confirmed. she'd had enough and told Hearst. She stopped having a real problems with it, and doubts in and talk to me saying that he or she wasn't comfortable as their lab director and
and I said: well, let's just the drop it will will break the contract them. what would be her? Second and final conversation with sunny doktor swear quit She said sunny, encouraged her to stay and the things a little uncomfortable because he was a bit pushy about it, but actors Sawyer stood firm in June twin Fifteen six into our ten year. She was out governments questioning of doktor swear was quick only about eighteen minutes, but according to Ellen Crates, bird complex alot, She was, good witness. She was thoughtful and her responses. She talked about this I think she laughed even though they wanted her to stay because she was uncomfortable with the way the lab was being run. She was the ball with them asking her to sign documents that she couldn't their added newer verify and she
uncomfortable with the lack of information she was being given. So sheaf is concerned with the government's theme how they were addressing the lab and how it was being run by Anybody want Elizabeth HOMES and she just confirms that as well. In the cross, examination defence attorney. Lance Wade spent his time directly challenging points made by the prosecution regard doctors, lawyers testimony that she'd never heard of co lab director doktor to we pointed out that the agreement between Doktor Soyer and their nose clearly stated she was going to be co director, which confirm she'd, understood sometimes labs have kind of pinch. Hitter, lab directors right wait asked, I suppose, you could call CO directorate that sometimes doktor sway replied, we'd also, pointed to language in the agreement stating it would be a temporary and limited engagement only up to Five hours a week, you
not going to be required to be on site. He asked correct. She replied, wait address doctors, lawyers, testimony about feeling uncomfortable with the conditions under which she was working here. If she'd communicated this to anyone at the company, I can tat the woman who had sent me the standard operating procedures through email. She told him, but you call anyone to have a conversation to try to change the conditions under which he worked. No, she said professor, it creates Burg says the cross. Examination played right into themes, we ve heard from the defence before, a similar approach to what they did with the investor. She was a well credentials. Intelligent person in an area of responsibility should have asked these questions, and she should have done the investigation instead of just being willing to sign documents, and so they are gonna chef blade. To her for failing to have done that those inquiries weight
I turned to the twelve test that were run on their noses own technology, the ones doktor Swayer testified. She had no knowledge of just so we're clear not those tat came into the lab when you were serving as the laboratory director correct, wait, asked correct, said: Doktor swear, implication being if they weren't in the lab, they weren't her concern. Ultimately, professor its bird thinks. The cross examination came out a little thin but believes the government wants to make its narrative stick. Prosecutors will have two connected in closing arguments between what was
happening at their noses lab and what was simultaneously occurring inside Walgreens. Amidst all the technical issues, what has happened with the two laughed directors is they're going to have to just oppose their placement in the lab, with what was happening with the commercial roll out, because in and of itself, while looks like they're not running the lab properly, we don't really see what the impact is, but if we juxtapose those actions or the lack of real work in the lab with a big commercial roll out, that's when we start to see that there may be fraud. That's occurring with respect to this information. This is broadened He hopes to maybe she's daily news. Podcast start here more drop out in a minute, but first a quick reminder if you're looking for a daily recap at the days news, including updates on the Elizabeth HOMES trial join me over.
start here, the daily podcast from ABC News again. That start here available wherever you listen in late, twenty fifth, keen justice there knows was dealing with its revolving door of lap directors even bigger problem, swear brewing for the company, the centres for medical care and medical services or CMS the federal regulator that oversees all laboratory testing in the United States was can. having an audit of their nose and they some troubling discoveries on Jim. where twenty five twenty sixteen cms and therein owes a letter declaring the company was posing immediate jeopardy, a patient health and safety over the course of one hundred twenty one pages, CMS documented numerous violations of regulatory standards, issues with their noses quality controls, test results, devices and methods of testing lack
salted Jerry Hearst says that would be reflective of extensive problems. twenty page stamina deficiencies, would be tippit Well, if the laboratory has multiple condition and standard level deficiencies so typical, if there are a lot of problems, because we know from Elizabeth twenty seventeen as seventeen see deposition thereunto the time was also when talks with drugstore chain see vs. But apparently The cms discoveries put an end to that. What happened when receiving I think it was notified of sanctions from sea among us in trying to work through those issues and then decided to exit the corn Columbus's. So did you terminate their discussions? Origin, CBS, I think the last email will keep us posted.
with also claimed the cms violations helped extinguish their noses relationship with safe way fairness ever end up rolling out of services and safe way stories. Why not? We couldn't a model to do that and ultimately, by the time we we did agree. We were dealing with issues in the chronicle up with us. with CMS is ten day deadline fast approaching therein. Turn to its newly hired lab director and the governments Many third witness doktor king shook dos other lab directors you'd come before him, doktor Dost if there are no working part time visiting the lab about once a week beginning December. Twenty fifteen when CMS sent their nose. The threatening report doctored,
said only been with the company for a handful of weeks had only just recently interviewed for the job with Elizabeth, whom he found impressive but who also gave no indication that there were issues on the horizon, even though it was already known inside of their announced that the CMS audit was under way, as doktor does describe. Did to the jury handling the CMS violations was nearly his sole responsibility. Doktor Dost told them, What he and Elizabeth had many conversations about cms findings and how the but he was going to respond CMS, and found that twenty nine percent of their noses quality control samples on all testing devices were violating regulatory standards. Doktor DOS testified that he investigated this claim and agreed with the finding additionally Doktor Dal said he found instances where there are no reported patient results from the Edison device after it failed, quality Control Doktor Dal said.
Tried to make the report more accessible to Elizabeth by using what he called uneasily. Digestible example doctored us. Hold Elizabeth their nose Piazzi test meant to detect prostate cancer by measuring the levels of prostate specific antigen was right, turning results indicating quite a few female patients have the protein in their blood a highly improbable outcome. Why was that a red flag to you asked the prosecution because Males generally, don't have Pierre say, It should only be detected and males testified, doktor dos, but Elizabeth rather accepting Doktor Dawson CMS. His findings came back with her own, alternative explanation. The college drop out with no medical degree suggested to doktor does that the testing,
question indicated the females had a rear form of breast cancer, as doktor DOS recalled to the court. Elizabeth had printed a few articles to back up her theory but Elizabeth explanation seemed implausible, doktor dos. Ultimately, after reviewing extensive data from their noses Edison machines between twenty fourteen and twenty fifteen doktor dos concluded concluded, the company should all all the estimated fifty to sixty thousand Tess entirely, traditional discussions with Elizabeth, which Doktor Dost testified, included more push back here. Team wrote to see a mass in the official response to their findings. The fraction of pay Shit results, truly impacted and the new Turn magnitude of any effect are unknown out of an abundant of caution. The laboratory, has avoided all patient test results reported from their nose devices.
Did you in fact void all the test results from the Edison device from the twenty fourteen twenty fifteen time period, Liege asked. Yes, we did. Doktor. Does it's a fact that but actually help both the prosecution and the defence according to professor crates bird. So the vote of the tasks? Also has both sides with a little piece of a good and a little piece of bad, but governments gonna argue, waiting. This many tasks shows the level inaccuracy. The level of problems on the other hand, is gonna argue when they saw the problem. They tried to take care of the problem. They not invited the task they send out notices to each those patients telling them the test had been void. They were willing to take the hit publicly in order to make sure that this went forward in a proper, accurate and reliable manner. defence attorney Lance Wade began his cross examination. He remained.
The jury of doktor does is impressive credentials. After does had a degree and biochemistry and a medical degree from case western heat years in the field, including running you see, alleys clinical LAB wait immediately reminded the jury why Doktor DOS was hired at therein else. hammering home the point he was specifically brought in to improve their noses lap practices. You you're the quarterback for that whole effort is that fair ass does responded, ok, and was it your observation that this team was working really hard and diligently and in good faith and that they work? to do everything that they could try to strengthen the laboratory practices at their nose? Yes, respond. It does continuing the sports analogy. Wade then ass doktor does whether Elizabeth was supportive of the lab director as quarterback of this team. Yes, doctor DOS replied Elizabeth Heading,
urged him to go back and review everything. We also noted when Doktor Dost join the company. Baroness, was assembling a scientific advisory board that included a former CDC head and other respected members of the scientific community. He also reminded the jury. It was doktor, docile job not debates to oversee the lab, it's a theme that up in a number of cross examinations, the defence He seems to be at every step to blame the lab director that for the most part, the lab directors beginning with Doktor Rosen Dwarf, and an ending with Doktor Sawyer and Doktor gas were very well qualified, very capable very knowledgeable about lab protocol requirements. They keep bringing you knew Elizabeth Hounds wasn't qualified to run a lab. She was young. She was naive and other
clearly making the laughed directors responsible for what was going wrong in the lab. But professor crates Borg says this can be a difficult strategy when the defences trying to cast blame too widely. So Blaming others a very typical defence approach to a case, and often a very valid and legitimate one. challenge in this case is there's a lot of people being blamed instead of Elizabeth HOMES, who is running the company, so big I'm a little bit challenging when you're blaming several people for different reasons. In order to move their guilt away from yourself. It came to the estimated fifty to sixty thousand voided tests, Wade a meeting that took place between Doktor DAS, Elizabeth and some others doctored us said. There had been some disagreement in the meeting. wait asked: do you recall
that Miss homes fully supported your decision to void all of the results. Yes, dos responded. Wait also address their noses Piazzi test and Elizabeth Alternative explanation, reminding the court. There are endocrinologists, who have detected piazza and females on occasion, but he first drove home. The point that, while Doktor Dawson Elizabeth may not have seen eye to eye on the results in the end she did ultimately referred DAS and his expertise and the tests were avoided. The device also according to Crates Burg affair Thirdly, woven the significance of Sonny's departure from therein house ones. Sonny leaves suddenly Elizabeth homes is able to insert herself in a supervisory body with the lab, and in doing that she is actually says to them. Do whatever you have to do to make this right and they're gonna argue what happened before was
all about with sunny by what he was doing and, and he was in charge. To the lab and choice to the lab directors and once Elizabeth Huh was in charge of them. Everything changed the defence finally included by asking doktor does what he thought about. There are no since June twenty eighteen when he left the company, did you still leaving the mission and what it had hoped to accomplish asked Wade. Yes, Doctor DAS replied way: then ass doktor does if he recalled a quote from his favorite film, the best exotic marigold hotel, which does had apparently at one point like it too. Therein else Everything will be all right in the end and if it's not all right, then it's not the end and I suspect, she's gonna turn that into some theme. In closing argument of this was a company in transition. This was a company constantly evolving and if it wasn't ok at that very moment, it was
in the end, have they been given more time more money? Perhaps it would have come about. Like so many investors we ve heard from in this trial the next witness called to the stand had zero. Sperience investing in biotech companies and learned there are no stir a friend, Alan eyes and men of financial adviser and money manager testified that he first heard about Elizabeth from his close personal friend David Harris, who happened to be a financial advisor to the homes family. He told me that Elizabeth was brilliant, that she was dropping out of school. To start a company- and she was partially on her way- testified Isaac men from his first conversation with Elizabeth, like so many others eyes him and was immediately moved eyes him and
Defied Elizabeth told him. Oracles Larry Allison had joined her board invested in her company and was serving as her personal adviser and that there are no had already landed important contracts with farmer companies. I took notes, I didn't mean testified, and it was an impressive list of companies like Pfizer Mister Myerst Novartis to me that put additional stamp of approval on the investment eyes in men, so said? He understood the technology was significantly far long for an early stage, company b, stone how Elizabeth presented it eyes and men said he got the impression in two thousand sex that the text which was to a point where it was solving problems and it was being used and that there were going to, future generations and future improvements Iceland men, like other investors, was also presented with enticing revenue projections. He said Elizabeth told him. The company was on track to make potentially two hundred million dollars in revenue by two thousand. Eight a sick
vacant number for a young start up. So one October thirteenth two thousand sex eyes in men, his wife and their three children, actively invested about a million dollars and therein house Iceland men said following his investment. He and Elizabeth would speak regularly about once a quarter and he was thrilled. Honest bring great trip to California eyes in men even took his son to visit Elizabeth and got a tool of the lab at their noses headquarters where they were shown an early version of the technology Things seem to be pretty rosy this time were on Elizabeth communal patients with eyes, and men grew more scarce by the spring. Twenty ten, I zoom in struggling to schedule? A call with elizabeth- and he was getting frustrated heed. what a considerable amount of money for him and his family into their house anyway and getting the kind of contact or information he expected any level Elizabeth and others at the company. No it frequently
reaching out asking from information his indications apparently became such a point of frustration for their nose, Elizabeth even recommended eyes and men exit the investment telling him if he sold then he'd get a five hour return on the money he put with their nose eyes in men held onto his investment. Was more proactive as a stakeholder than other stakeholders and management. Particularly Elizabeth did not like that bank that I was trying to communicate in trying to get information in November, when he twelve eyes reached out via email to then Board Chair Don Lucas about the status of his investment writing, but he hadn't heard from the company in two years Elizabeth China to the conversation in an email. Now Alan. It has been about that long since you decided to start harassing our chairman. Despite the fact we communicated
multiple times that if you did so, we would no longer respond to your request to talk to you. In light of all our past interactions to the companies. Amazement you ve contain. You do sat on an ongoing basis ever since we had those conversations with you eyes in men shot back with his own message. Elizabeth, it is, over two years, since you communicated with your investors. I emailed you one week ago, following your instructions that investors should communicate directly with the company. According to professor crates, the heated email exchange- was an important moment for the prosecution We saw that we had not seen with other investors was an angry exchange. An email between Elizabeth HOMES with. Why do you keep ask me these questions. We ve been over them as far as they can see Elizabeth HOMES is charming lovely every from general matters to the city of Safeway, respected her so they're not sing
side of foreigners or that side of Elizabeth HOMES in our eyes in which gives us a small glimpse of that kind of strategic pressure by them, Despite what he considered a frustrating lack of contact eyes, hung on to his investment and that in December, twenty thirteen he received same email that was sent to other early investors. Their nose was offering eyes and men the chance to put more money into the company as long as he meet the new year's Eve deadline, eyes. Admin replied to the message and, to his surprise, received a very quick response from sunny who wanted to help a call right away Iceland, men described it as a one hundred eighty degrees shift Apparently the new town worked on Christmas day item in wired. There knows one hundred thousand dollars, but why
I would even men want to invest more with their nose after such bad experiences, previously prosecutor, bossed aghast this is We call a seat at the table, explained eyes at men if you put money in at an early stage and their successful you're. The first that's allowed to put money in as they raise more and the valuation increases he testified island I also saw the launch it Walgreens and the glowing publicity at the time as reasons to feel confident. But history proves to repeat it: self once again, when, in early October, twenty fourteen eyes in winter to get in touch with Elizabeth and Sunny island. And had just read a negative report about therein. I was by investment bank, you be ass, so we fired off an email The blood testing company you bs claims the blue Samples have to be sent to Palo Alto. They are, reliable than traditional tests and the Turner time is over twenty four hours. He wrote Iceman told the court
the U Bs report was totally contradictory to what he had been told by Elizabeth and sunny Sunday rest due to the email rushing off the report. Writing this sounds and uninformed consultant. According to Ireland, and sunny response raised suspicions, did you take it as a denial of the information and the. U Bs report Fosdick asked it was enough, to unity. To deny it but it was not really addressing the situation, explained eyes and men eyes and then replied. Asking for more information and received a response. from sunny with an all too familiar town I have no intention of responding to this email and explaining the Tec and processes, please sending me emails every day, but eyes and men was unsatisfied replying again, I don't mean to bother you. I am closed retirement and I am trying to decide whether to lighten up, hopefully
there'll be additional information available in the not too distant future months later in March, twenty fifteen therein his valuation had search to nine billion dollars the brand. Flourishing in the press. Elizabeth was centre stage John major events, and therein We had attracted hundreds of millions and additional investments from MECCA investors like the wall, tits and the device family, Iceland men said he was ready to exit, is investment and he reached The sunny for more information sunny reply, that there wouldn't be an exit opportunity that year, but I've been pushed back telling sunny he was retiring and his daughter was looking to buy a house very least eyes. A man wanted to know when the opportunity to exit might come up It is really unfair for you to play this cat and mouse game with me. I have been a shareholder for over nine years eyes Admin wrote, sunny, sunny, fired off, Angry reply. Writing your email
these are insulting full of inaccurate statements and wasteful of our time. Our next research this email and all your future emails will come from our council. instead of a gigantic windfall or even a modest return eyes in men. wanted to sell Sally shares at the height of their noses. Valuation would lose entire investment, defence attorney. Kevin Downy kicked off the cross examination with a strategy. We have now seen many times playing up eyes, admins credentials and qualifications. The fact that he was connect, and in the now you Your ears open on an ongoing basis to make an effort to try to hear about private investing opportunities that might be of interest to you. Correct downy, asked correct, and men side Dounia, also use the cross to remind the jury about Elizabeth OWN Back story, her routes? in Houston, her family, the fact she got into it,
Rate College Stanford France has repeatedly elicited information from government witnesses to both human eyes. Elizabeth Homs too. tray her more sympathetically, and give her dimension and not just the person whose massed in the courtroom every day and they ve done a very effective job of it. Really. Information, has nothing to do with the charges of the case are her guilt or innocence in this case, but it's an effective way to get it. jury to look at her sympathetically view some of this evidence through that lands which actually, I think as being quite effective Downy turned to pharmaceutical companies and pointed out that there are NOS did, have an agreement with Smithkline there was noted in the stock purchase agreement. I'm in shot back can you show me on this agreement where she's doing business with Pfizer, Bristol Myers and Novartis, because that's what she told me Downy quickly moved his
like that comment from the record dollar, obliged the courtroom, became tents. You don't mean to imply that this jury that Miss homes did not have agreements or discussions with these companies You're saying that you don't know, correct, Downy asked skeptical founded eyes and men. Well, do you have any foundation to know that I have a history of information that was told me over the course of years. That was not accurate, set eyes and men excuse me down. He replied dodge dabbler, then chimed in you asked the question down continued questioning eyes and men excuse me, you don't know what was going on internally at their nose in terms of their working with pharmaceutical companies. Do you I have I'm pretty strong evidence from a lot of sources that a lot of things that were told to me were not accurate, resentment responded,
seemingly trying to turn down the temperature downy started asking eyes and men about his experience, investing in private companies but eyes and men's responses didn't allow it your trained as a lawyer correct, not exactly. I went to law school, I did tax work, it was, I didn't practice in these areas of law set eyes and men. Well, I think attacks lawyer counts as a lawyer, but if you don't accept it, that's ok said Downy It wasn't long before eyes and men began arguing again with downy down. ass dies in men to confirm the actual language and, as there are no stock purchase agreement but steady eyes and men blurted out. what is more important or conversations that you have with the principles and they will tell you what their thoughts are, what they think will happen and that's more important than this statement judged intervened again. Mr President, Mr Iceland, man, I'm sorry, sir. I appreciate your assistance here, but you just.
Need to listen to his questions and then answer the question as best you can and then you ll, ask you another question. Needless to say, Downy asked dollar to strike eyes, admins answer and Davos dead, but the conversation continued to derail Comedy in Davos, essentially begging. Iceland meant to stay on course, MR eyes and men, MR eyes and men. I have to stop you again, sir, so I'm going to ask you to focus on the lawyers, not just this lawyer, but any lawyer who asked you a question just focus on the question that they ask profess, cried spurred, says eyes, admins, combative, demeanor could play a role and how the jury sees his testimony matter. That he's really fired up, how's, that translating to the jury, ITALY, hard to know how jurors react to the witnesses demeanor there there actually instructed in told they should look.
The demeanor on the stand, and it's something they can consider and evaluating. The truthfulness are untruthfulness of their testimony demeanor of a witness. Is something under the larger should look at NASA they say he just left a million dollars. I'm sure his angry and no one would would talk to him. No give him information, but we contrast that with almost all the other government witnesses who A variety of reasons were very calm. Very complete, used on the witness, stand and really didn't see. to harbour that kind of anger that that he certainly showing it was the most heated cross examination we ve seen and abruptly came to an end with and men still on the stand. Time ran out and court had who adjourned for the weak, willed, here visas fired up when he returns, but overall professor crates Burg things this week was possible. Turning point for the defence and Elizabeth, I
at the end of this week? Certainly, the defence is making a very strong case for the fact that each You should not be held accountable. I think passionate way their presenting her and the information that presenting her and the unappealing nature of the victims, who These wealthy investors could just the scales. Despite the amount of evidence. This is certainly not a slam dung for the government coming up. Could this be the prosecutions last week of witnesses Will the government put on the stand before it rests its case? among the remaining names on the original list of one hundred. Eighty one whistle We're Tyler Shawls therein owes attorney David boys and farmers. Broteri of State Henry Kissinger we haven't heard from any of them yet and Ellen Crates Burg says we likely never will most of those
witnesses aren't gonna be called because they come with a lot of baggage awakening from Elizabeth: what's your bad might think that the defence is gonna, think long and hard before their willing to put her the standard we are likely to. Finally, here from Roger Parliament, the man behind the bombshell fortune, article who says he was
by Elizabeth and became an unwitting player and her deception. I got up Englishwoman story. I'm here I began to drink the cool age. Oh yeah, I've learned lessons. I think I ask the right questions. I just got thrown tuning next Tuesday Elizabeth HOMES and sunny about wanting did not respond or decline. To comment for this pact cast some material, including court depositions were added for clarity and time. The drop out Elizabeth homes on trial is written in reporting by Victoria Thomson. Taylor done and me Victoria's the executive producer Taylor and I are producers for ABC Audio Susie, Louis producer and Madeline Wood and Marwood lucky or associate producers dear Athens and MILES Cohen. Our court producers for ABC Business Unit are associate, producer is Victor or donors, and our production assistant is lane when mixing in scoring is by Susie Loo and Evan Viola Evan also composed the music for the drop out. Our work is by Teddy blanks at chips, and why and separate HANS Tat for ABC Audio Liz. Alessi is executor producer special thanks to Josh Cohen, Elizabeth Rousseau, even Rosenberg, Erika, sovereign and station issue. Some love him he's a football thought
some Haider. Do you Tom Brady? Can I say that, but no matter how you feel His name Tom Brady, Ambrady Upper Brady, What can we learn from Tom's career about the world and about ourselves from religion of sports and he has been plus? This is man in the arena, listen And follow now on Apple pie, Cast Spotify or wherever you get your pie casts.
Transcript generated on 2021-11-17.