Elizabeth brings on an unexpected character as her right-hand man at Theranos and it turns out they are hiding a big secret. They strike a monumental deal with Walgreens that could potentially put millions of lives at risk while insiders say a culture of fear and intimidation at the company leads to incredible tragedy.
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This is an unofficial transcript meant for reference. Accuracy is not guaranteed.
Previously, on the drop out, we met Elizabeth HOMES. Stanford drop out with less than two years of college under her belt, launched her blood testing company, fair, announce it just nineteen years old
actually originally did not intend to drop out of temporary, but I wasn't going to any classes, and I was spending all of my time talking devices. Logistically, it just seemed like a waste of money. You obsessed with Apple and Steve Jobs, she'd started wearing black turtleneck in recruiting heavily from her heroes. Company power, fifteen thousand shares apple, but solely life continues
but one by one those apple recruits, including avi Turanian, Steve Jobs, right hand. Guy had been dropping like flies
so you were done with their nose
I had seen so many things that were bad go on
Never expected anyone would behave the whether she behaved as a seal and believe me. I work for Steve jobs.
I saw some crazy things, the business
also running out of cash you? That company was short and cash? Yes, but Elizabeth was about to find a solution.
All of those problems from ABC Radio and night line is the drop episode to enforcer when
I want to join the company. I thought and about September two thousand nine August, two thousand
In two thousand nine Elizabeth homes found herself in a precarious lace. Her company was
our five years old. She had not office and employees, even though many of the apple recruits had left and a big mission to fulfil. What Elizabeth didn't have was the money to make it happen. She says she was:
considering, at this point, going out and doing an equity raise essentially trying to find new investors to buy into her company the trouble with that was timing. This was in the midst of the great recession. Even companies that had been around for generations were struggling to get loans and many were going out of business. It was something I was covering regularly for CNBC, like
day Lehman brothers when under and brothers could withstand the test of time through two world wars through the great depression, and that now a credit crisis has brought it to its knees, so merit. But, unlike so many others, Elizabeth had an ace up her sleeve a white knight with deep pockets,
saw a company must know and the cash and- and I knew this mission and what company must try to do
was paramount, so I offered to help the company
ended up giving thirteen million daughter, personal loan and ngos interest free was a good, frivolous. That's romish by wanting he goes by signing of that he's. A former software executive who sold his company just before the dot com bubble, burst and made millions will be. The he'd worked at Lotus, Microsoft and in MID two thousand nine. He cut their nose a massive check, however, but sunny wasn't just offering a lifeline.
regional, and he was also joining baroness as an employee after that, six months later, when I decided that I'm gonna stay here for the long term and board said absolutely, must they made me the president's you? Did he having qualifications, lab testing business denied or pathology
technology, so sunny begin, showing up to work every day at their house like a list,
That's funny had his own kind of uniform, a white button,
I'm sure genes and expensive loafers. He always smelled of cologne and became known for his flashy tastes, sunny drove to cars, both with vanity.
It's a black Lamborghini with licence vetoed Ici as in vain evading ici, a reference
Julius Caesar Ass, I came, I saw my conquered.
Abortion, nine eleven with plates that pay homage to Karl Marx as Anti Capitalist, manifesto Dost capital. He was a very
striking figure around me office, but his presence confused a lot of employees like Michael Craig, a senior software engineer. I always wondered why it was there. You know she was actually does this held this vision of really impacting the world outside. Why did you pick him, then Michael reported directly to sunny, he was terse and he was a bit of a hot head for
and I could see there was at one level this need to assert dominance and another level. I don't think he ran terribly deep. I, for instance, I remember one company party had these.
set of samurai swords in his office for a long time, and I finally was like so much
interested in those swords and stuff. Cuz he's pretty interested in a lot of that stuff, and he basically said didn't know it's just a thing. I was like well like there's, not even the story there. This just like some.
check the use put their, so he has like that. That need to prove himself and also pretending like his above everything
Sonny became the most important person at the company after Elizabeth employees. Remember, they would frequently see the to conducting meetings in their big windowed office at the end of the hallway. The two were a tag: Team Elizabeth would focus on the board and big picture ideas, while sunny, despite his lack of scientific experience, would ban
the day to day with employees and business partners. I would generally do the first meeting or to talk about the vision, and then he would follow up on any questions or they are from the diligence perspective and provide them with information and sunny wasn't affair.
it to get involved in the lab. Again. He had no
real scientific training, but he would come in roll up.
His white button down shirt, sleeves and start working on those
shortage of people on weekends and also get trained me I'll. Do it.
Your life and started sunny was a hard worker. Employee say he was also developing a reputation as a bully. Someone with a menacing presents hears
Erica Chung who worked for him in the lab? Initially, you would be if you'd be fairly nice.
but then through email Hugh, he frequently would get really upset about about different things, and it was like this is unacceptable.
Or you guys don't know what you're doing was always sort of firing back people and blaming people for different things that were going on and was always unsettled.
with what people are doing and how they were doing it?
to a point where it was almost hard to work for him, because he would just get so angry and get Sillam set in was,
got very well versed in the medical diagnostic world and wasn't really well versed in the sciences. So Woodward frequently say things that were just in appropriate became very clear to entire departments that it was
you didn't understand really what was going on Tyler Shoulder
our colleague of Africa's says,
earned a nickname around the office is a slow.
pretty well known. That sunny was caught in force are therefore serve. Would, of course like this is like intimidation, tactics of this. According to former employees, Sonny's management style caused. Many people to leave a company
Again. Here's Michael Craig, did you ever get angry with you just like US
maybe there's something out of the blue and then looking at whatever I did, which are, generally speaking, important hardened
and then be like others is not at all what ass for you now. Unlike what would he l? I mean he was loud barking at people basically and even Elizabeth under oath trying to distance
self from this behavior, where there are areas in which we disagreed. Yes, what were those areas we we disagree. All the time about. A lot of things were very different leadership. Styles,
so what was keeping this millionaire with so little relevant experience who is making waves inside the company in such a powerful role? There's one detail: Elizabeth wasn't exactly sharing that might explain the whole thing. Are you in favour? Ahwahnee ever engaged at a relationship
When time did you lived here, we did. Did you ever tell investors that unity? While I had a romantic relationship at the time they
we were asked to internalize Elizabeth near
Twenty years younger than sunny was not just his boss. She was also his girlfriend. Even employees like Michael Craig had
No idea now, when I heard that they had been in a relationship are still like work, really care where they flirtatious now
Did. You ever see them in a car together he was home or any should go at shoes. Ellie Slorc about just in general, pearl shoes. Monk, like
They kept it mostly under wraps from investors, the press even from some board members. You think it was intentional.
had. I was absolutely intentional Joe
carry rule. Is a Wall Street Journal reporter and author of bad blood secrets and lies in a silicon valley? Start up he's been covering their nose for many years and was astounded by
twist well, one of the first things that you also,
My eyebrows was when I had my first long conversation with the Lamb director and he told me that sunny and Elizabeth were an item
was stunned by that, in fact, much of the publicity surrounding their nose made it sound like Elizabeth, didn't, have a personal life, something her mother openly worried about in a new Yorker article in the same profile, Henry Kissinger, who is on the board of directors even suggested he'd, been
trying to settle Isabel up on dates. In reality, Elizabeth and sunny were very much together. They had met several years before thoroughness when she was about eighteen. Sunny was thirty. Seven at the time
I met this homes in two thousand to China,
same Stanford Programme and receive the entire department
about her Chinese.
Kills, and so when I first met her and they got, you must be the most betimes Elizabeth and
Any state in Touch Elizabeth Brother, Christian homes remembers her talking about sunny when she returned from China, but it will help
they would qualify romantic versus personal
since you got back from China to mention the hand of friendship, eventually bad friendship
developed into something more according to public records, sunny and Elizabeth at one point even shared around,
students on Channing Avenue in Palo Alto about four miles from the
aeronauts office back it.
at office. They would work long hours and
gather in early twenty ten, a list
but then sunny were going after their biggest collaboration. Yet
there are no was trying to land a partnership with Walgreens. They were hoping
to put their nose technology and more than eight thousand stores. Basically with
a few miles of almost every home in America. This would be a huge break and it would mean a lot of money for fair knows.
We were interested in partnering with Walgreens because of the retail footprint here's Wall Street Journal reporter John Kerry real. So you can imagine that the thoroughness blood
ass, would have been available at almost every street corner
in their first pitch to Walgreens in twenty ten Walgreens says that there are no claimed they had developed small point of care devices that, for the first time, could run and a blood test. In real time
quickly what their nose was promising? According to Walgreens was a device that patients could use right at a walker in store to get an accurate result for any blood test from Stds to the earliest appearances of cancer. They also promised they could do this for less than half the cost of central lab tests and all you
need as a single finger prick of blood Elizabeth would become a master salesman later, boasting about the massive deal with Walgreens
on the conference circuit. What we're doing in just pricing
the way that we are for medication Medicaid.
Is saving medication.
hundreds of billions of dollars on an annual basis and
every person means rolling.
this out ultimately within five miles of every person's home. So we started so our work.
Is making it possible to do any
Bob test from attaining a drop of blood from a finger
Instead of having big needle stuck in your arm in tubes and tubes of blood taken out on March twenty second, twenty ten,
you months. After that initial email, Elizabeth and Sunny flew to the Walgreens headquarters and gear filled Illinois. They sat down with Walgreens executives, including the CFO, and made a very compelling Powerpoint presentation,
At this initial meeting, Wildering says the Elizabeth and Sunny made the claim that the technology was quote viable and consumer ready and that there are no,
systems were validated under after guidelines. They said that the finger stick technology would be ready to leave.
to consumers later that year
Greens also says that Elizabeth and Sunny even claimed their technology had been used by the: U S: military and foreign government operations. Years later, when Elizabeth was pressed under oath about this claim, it would come to light. It was absolutely not
Was there in his manufacture, device ever deployed, the battle battlefield was ever deployed in a manner that hotter was a baron s, knife advice over deployed and patchy hunter, but in twenty TED, while greens had no idea and was entreat, they struck an initial deal with fair enough.
Before putting the technology in stores. Walgreens wanted to make sure everything was on the level so they put together.
the team and brought in the lab consulted. An expert named Kevin Hunter Heaven,
I remember how are you cavern and I recently spoke on the phone. When I was born, my family have small trainer, drugstores and opening the ark. Then my father ran one my grandfather and another interesting. It goes full circle, everyone working with the largest pharmacy chain and world couple years later right and what specifically, where you supposed to do, for, while greens, they split
quickly asked us to get involved and help them that this opportunity with fairness and give them guidance about. You, know the budget in the field of the task in its ability to be reproduced. In almost I too think Kevin says they called it project beta. We all had shirts made up. Everybody got a nickname and I was called the expert by the time he joined. He says he
already heard some impressive stories about their knows that they had been wildly successful. They knew the other technologies being used on the battlefield, Parma defence, that they were doing in hometown.
For people and that also they were working with either.
Couple of Turner aid of ten of large pharmaceutical companies and world in August. Twenty ten. Heaven is working with Walgreens and he and some executives flew out to Silicon Valley for a meeting at the Baroness headquarters from everything he'd heard, he was equipped.
thing to be seriously wowed. Both shortly was wasn't one for one of all. I remember one time
You know we are arrives in the
When you see is that sunny had a Lamborghini that was parked right up front and he was very proud of the fact that he had been successful and other technology businesses. Then that was his car, but Billy was blocked by key cards and all that kind of stuff we were met at the ground floor,
immediately taken upstairs for conference room, where we only met with Sunny Elizabeth and when X example, we would break to go to the restroom. They would literally walk up to the restroom and then walk us back. So we weren't allowed to look around or
anybody. Anything like that. When you say then, who is day it was funny
twenty would literally walked me to the restaurant was standing where
those kind of crazy anybody would wait outside the rest of Gaza and then walked me back
So that was unusual. You know I asked for the laboratory was that it was located downstairs. I asked we're gonna get to see it and they said
lunch and then, after wanted Europe, it would turn to
I'm going to show you the laboratory I kept asking to speak was like a chief medical officer or
the scientists it was working on the test of our door, or things like that, and you know they said they won- t keep a calmer.
Nature high level will not bring any body into a good heavens, as he requested. Other thing
in this meaning to, for example, he ask everyone to take a thoroughness blood test right then, and there,
I should like all get our blood drawn and, what's from some bird basic test here and we'll go around the corner to Stanford and have them run our tests as well, and they refused to do that and when I
Elizabeth S talk to why she wouldn't let us do it. She said that she didn't trust Stamford results.
Am I found that really ironic for somebody who supposedly dropped out Sandford and then you know, thought very highly of of the universal. You do not believe there laboratory results
according to cabin. The whole meeting felt like one big dodge after the next, but when it came to pomp and circumstance, Elizabeth and Sunny knew how to put on a good show my presented, the CFO Walgreens WHIP the autumn with a flag that had flown over
Afghanistan. Knowing what you do now. Do you think that flag really flew over Afghanistan?
that's a really good question, I mean it was certainly framed, and you know it was was presented like you would see, but I I have no clue after the lab is at. That would never come to be. They went out for dinner, but even that seemed a little off. We did go out to dinner at up like three o clock in the afternoon. It was kind of his are. We were not allowed to write. You know we want
Well to follow them. We had just meet him in the back room. We did to this restaurant there's, no one there. Yet we still meet the back
we ve got her standard colleague ringing protein, shake the trigger and was dressed in all black and sunny up sushi or something like that, but they were not allowed to talk to each other by name yet sunny drudges lander do so. If you are concerned about people follow, you are seeing me or something that you know why you drive and run pile talent in black glamour, gaily it just it just didn't up. Did they ever shall sides of affection towards each other
are in front of you, love she never shared anyone green shake with him. Will you love the morgue?
inside the more questions he had begun.
Know exactly how fairness plan to run all these texts.
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did Walgreens believe that there are no technology. Would let you run multiple tests with the finger prick of blood, but was that was what was
those that their position all along with the fact that,
but it would be one drop of blood in one of the documents that that I have shown that they said they can do two hundred fifty tests- and you know
I was too that that was August, two thousand turn on their work and was that possible
And then I never saw anything that would give any credibility to the fact that the instrument did anything at all anything
oh yeah, I'm on my desk sat one of the Edison instruments, one of their early instrument, because we Bogdan forever to send us an instrument so where we can, we can run tax on it in those two things and I beg, I beg them to. Let me crack it open and take a look and see what was going on inside the instrument, and you know it's like a computer headlong tape on the tamper, evident tape on the back
and they just don't want to do that, then it would run for a little while and have an urgent down or something I never got it to do anything that I could that turned out of
a test results that could be correlated with any the deception was incredible. What would you say are the biggest deceptions I think, sunny and Elizabeth position that take that they could do this testing on one drop of blood was just
it was just the complete farce, and you know one of the things I tried to explain to them was that you know, because
Alison, could look. I understand the tech start up environment. You can breathe, bear out here in Palo Alto. You think it till you make it to a certain extent, but you know what you're talking about testing people and people taking these lab results, making life decisions based upon the results you give em, you need to make sure that their rights
and they just pull off Kevin says he didn't think Walgreens should work with their nose and for a moment and even looked like the deal was dead, but suddenly Kevin says it was back on Elizabeth had convinced Walgreens to stay in. It was also used where
There was there was. There was just enough belief or just enough hope if you will, but it was that it was legitimate.
They really believed that they would put question labourer business and those are you know from those that are from Erika laboratory industry.
The two eight hundred pound guerrillas and
Again. It was just
again. It was something that people wanted it to be real, so badly that you know they were willing to gonna. Take people's word for some of this stuff. It was just. It was kind of bizarre
despite what Kevin says, were extensive warnings. The Walgreens team continued to move forward.
Kevin says he was nervous and needed to get out. Why did you leave out Milly? I really felt like at some point in time. There could be some deal by association is worked out, but I have spent a year and a half working on this project with them. You know that I almost an was by me continuously involved. I was almost the doors
and I didn't want back damage my reputation when Elizabeth started getting loads of publicity a few years after he left even Kevin.
Don't wife wondered if his instincts were wrong in early twenty, urging that usually the cover time magazine and my wife said to me- she said you know, don't you think he did not hear just were hung on this one leg. You didn't see the force of trees. I said you know what sort of go to my grave, knowing that you know that this was a legitimate, and I said it may not be today- may not be next week on next year
but the truth will come out eventually it dead, but that wouldn't be for a number of years,
in January, twenty twelve
Green says, Elizabeth and Sunny said they were on the right track with regulatory approvals and claimed their rest
machinery technology was advancing and wood.
Choir ninety nine point: nine percent, less blood and the traditional blood tests.
Services already on the market.
So within sunny according to Walgreens, promised their nose,
be the nations lowest cost and highest quality laboratory provider.
by late twenty thirteen. They started rolling out their nose wellness centres inside of Walgreens two years,
later? They had forty one of them across California in Arizona you may.
Be asking yourself how did Walgreens accompany with thousands of employees that serves millions of customers a day, not see this coming.
I talked to read Katharine a lawyer who later sued thereunto on behalf of investors, should Walgreens beheld responsible here. Well, they were fooled too
They had executors that had their blood tested in rooms with the machine,
sitting there by their side, and they too have their blood
tested, and then they go off and have lunch and in the background- and there were few tests thing, they could run one at a time when a third Knowest machine, but they
basically made it look like it, was being run on this machine in the room, but they are actually doing it by hand in the lab and so the wall that Walgreens people got those results and while this week-
There are no employed, Tyler Schulz says many inside the company saw this behaviour there, even jokes about it like during demonstrations. The joke was that they put it. They would put the
Partridge until the device and there was a glove there that would take it and go run it somewhere ask as they knew that,
I wasn't gonna work thousand pre common joke. In fact, back before the while Green still came together
There were experts inside of their knows, who said they knew something was up and were flabbergasted by Elizabeth claims. Experts like in gibbons,
He was named the chief scientist at their nose in two thousand five, an extremely bright guy with a bunch of Cambridge degrees and nearly two hundred patents to his name
tall with blue eyes and reddish hair with refined english accent and style in
recommended by Channing Robertson, Elizabeth Number, one.
Your leader hurled Stanford, professor, and a fair, no sport member, an enchanting had worked together. Many years before I worked with four from the early days of biometric, maybe twenty five thirty years
I worked for them closely. It turn us. When did you first learn about their nose? I think,
two thousand and two and in started consulting for Channing Robertson. That's Rochelle gibbons!
his wife she's in early seventys with brown curly hair. She sobbed spoken, but shore of herself Rochelle, says eons job was making the thoroughness technology actually work, no easy task. If anyone could do this technology with you, we shall who is a scientist,
Herself, as well as a patent attorney says, her husband was initially apprehensive to talk about work because of the secretive environment at their house. Elizabeth was isolating him
rapidly everyone else too, but he didn't know that he most scientists are really social and they can't wait to. When you get it there be yourself, you
you're all over the place with it. You know you want everyone to know, and there was none of that it at their nose.
We shall says in new, as there are no was closing in on its deal with Walgreens, that none of the fair knows technology worked yet the machines white simply weren't giving accurate results,
She was talking about how she was improving on current technology.
you couldn't figure out what tat technology if she was talking about it, just became falsehood and falsehood
Elizabeth may have been selling a fully realised product, but we shall says that pitch was more fantasy than reality regardless and went to work every
day, trying to make it work, while Elizabeth would frequently be
out of office peddling your product to investors, marketers and board members
Michel, says the more even saw the more he thought the company was misrepresenting itself committing fry
and his eyes even putting people's lives at risk. Even felt like people's lives were on the balance,
This, along with his own scientific integrity, so he was just deeply distraught and he went to toxic channing in confidence and he told Elizabeth about it and she fired him on the spot. Channing told Elizabeth yeah.
and she fired on the spot. Rochelle says, oddly enough in was almost immediately hired back, but he was demoted and he took it hard.
which he had him doing, was evaluating people. People see the set came into the company and
hated yeah. That's not what scientists a directive as a development as
and that was true of other scientists, one of the scientists who is no longer there was in.
charging building maintenance. This was, as scientists senior level signs that spending a fair amount of money to employ somebody and not use them. Why do you
Think Elizabeth would do that. I think they were window dressing because
I mean the end was figured on. The website is principle right and here
You really does have had a brilliant reputation and she needed scientific credibility and and gave her scientists,
according to reach out. There was another thing bothering in around this time, while all of this alleged
Deception was going on. Fairness was the plaintiff in a big patent law suit in was subpoenaed by the defence to provide testimony that would potentially put their nose in a bad light.
He was incredibly anxious about it. He couldn't imagine himself up in front of a court. He faced either perjury himself in defending the company
are openly admitting the technology didn't work, he told me
you he didn't believe Elizabeth. You know just because she's pathological Meyer
so. He really didn't want to testify.
because he was over barrel. They would fire him. If
if he didn't go along with the company store and then
you knew that they didn't want him to testify. He was actually subpoenaed, so he had to testify
even when he started at their nose and had struggled he'd been diagnosed with cancer.
As early days and had looked too that there are no sir,
Opportunity is a bright new chapter,
but we shall says the lies and the treatment he saw set him further and further back
bring to Rochelle the pressure of the tree
Ireland, Elizabeth, relentless intimidation, tactics put him over the edge and he said
Where did showing signs of depression? His big problem was that he didn't want to be an envoy, even if it was it there, but he hated farragos. So is he was storm because he really
hated. It didn't want to be there, but he didn't wanna, be unemployed
about Elizabeth at that stage he was totally night at her. He didn't have anything to say about her at all. He just hated her she's, a bully for one thing. She bullied him. She made him,
feel bad all the time, and am I
I used to say why does someone like you give it about Weiss? Someone like a at Lisbon Treaty like this
And he didn't really have an answer for it. I dont know.
one evening in came home, filled with dread, sit
in the family room of their sprawling ranch style house with two enormous heritage oaks out front. He enrich
I had a long conversation. She says it was supposed to meet with Elizabeth the next day he expected to be fired and he wanted to confront her. Do you tell me how said he was moved urban as observers
sure. Now I've got a things were going to be fine, because we see the doctor in the next day get him treated for the depression. Then a horrific shock were shall woke the next morning to find an had attempted suicide,
we shall called the office to. Let them know he wouldn't be showing up for his meeting with Elizabeth. What made you make that phone call will because
I wasn't gonna show up at the meeting. I know it's a little bit stoop. Perhaps I should have done any, but just
Let him know that he was in the hospital wouldn't come to him, meaning in was rushed to the hospital. A week later he died with Russia by his side. He was sixty seven years old.
When there are no reached out were shall says it was in the form of two letters:
as the email demanding all the intellectual property and any other lap books are things.
the computer and then the other one was letter from their lawyer. Why warning me against telling anyone what happened in Heaven?
the years had he worked. There are now, since two thousand and three from ten years
and yours you weren't. There are now seer debates.
Flowers. No, I expected. I fully expect something from him.
and they didn't do anything and then the other,
The other thing was asserted. That of is that they could think thought they could see me for talking buddy. You know they couldn't
I guess they were trying to scare me. The tin, timid, eight me into thinking they're gonna get me for defamation but
defense. The defamation is truth.
And so you know, I'm telling the truth here not lying about telling us. What has this done to your life it's
at the worst. It's come close to ending it, but let me people like that she'd be in jail. They should not be allowed to destroy people's lives,
we shall says: eons warnings would never be heard outside of narrow house. He would die just months before the partnership with Walgreens came together before the first Narrowness Wellness centre would open in Palo Alto and before the company would set out, on a massive add campaign, tapping the expertise of the most famous documenting area in the World Euro Morris.
As the state s cameras ready, lack, replace here. We are at the ground floor of something that is revolutionary and were part of it from the Tipp of your finger time. Any train there waiting for that moment of shock the moment of four and it doesnt have Jacqueline and the next episode
Dropout Elizabeth becomes a full fledged star. I also heard she was travelling with four bodyguards carrying guns, packing heat and travelled in private.
answer technology- has launched the public and real patients. Lives are now potentially at risk.
Being able to somehow justify in her mind it was okay to put all these people pencil in harm's way. I don't understand how someone does that. I just am unable personally to comprehend it
Elizabeth HOMES, sunny by wanting Tyler Schulz, Christian homes, the fifth and the fourth Noel HOMES Channing Robert said an arrow Morris did not respond,
declined to comment for this podcast?
some material, including poor depositions, were added for clarity, and the drop out is written in produced by Taylor done Victoria. Thomson and me are, editors- are Chris through Bay and Evan Viola, who also created our theme song additional editing on this episode by neck mistake. Our researchers are Victor ordinary Emily and when our work is by Teddy Blake's chips and why the drop out is a reduction of Nightline, ABC Radio and Amy Safe Business unit gentleman is the supervising user and Stephen Baker. Is the executive producer? Erika room runs ABC specialised thanks to the team and ABC Radio and to the Wall Street Journal John Kerry, real author of bad blood was investigative reporting. First expose. This remarkable story is sure to subscribe to the drop out podcast, and if you like, what you heard leave us or review was
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