« The Dropout

The General and the Patient

2021-09-28

This week, a high-profile witness from Elizabeth’s superstar board of directors surprises the courtroom by taking the stand: 4-star general and former U.S. Secretary of Defense James Mattis. He speaks of being dazzled by the potential of Theranos’ devices on the battlefield and the disillusionment he felt when the full story came to light. Plus, we meet a patient whose Theranos test results led to a terrifying ordeal. 

This is an unofficial transcript meant for reference. Accuracy is not guaranteed.
Previously, on the drop out we met There are no slab employees who highlighted stunning blood testing issues that lead to their resignations, potter controls or failing at one point what seemed almost every day this week We hear real life consequences from a patient on the receiving end of those tests, but first a high profile. Witness from Elizabeth Superstar Board of directors, surprises the courtroom bite, giving the stand. While we can all be fooled by somethin, It was obviously that now,
take on my part to be part of it from ABC audio. This is the drop out Elizabeth homes on trial episode, six, the general and the patient. If we ve learned one thing from following the criminal trial of Elizabeth HOMES. It's to expect the unexpected, and this week was no exception. Midway through the testimony of a price Waterhouse Coopers employ who was diligently authenticating text, exchanges between Elizabeth and her former boyfriend and seo sunny by wanting the government made Surprise announcement another
Witness with significant demands on his schedule. An international visitors to meet had some free time right then, and there could assume, be made to accommodate this prominent figure novel a joke to the court. We can have the witnesses armor, I saw on Fourchan we for the jury and reporters in the room. There would be no arm wrestling. But there was a lot of speculating who was this busy vip about to take the stand? Abc news is MILES Cohen, described the scene, this man in the back of the courtroom, any surrounded by an entourage of of court marshals in what appeared, The government special agents? All this whisper Is it Kissinger? Is it Murdoch and then finally made the decision to bring this witness in out of turn. Ellen cried spark is
faster of law, Santa Clara University. She was also sitting in the courtroom audience and then that's when general matters was brought into the courtroom: Gender matters before. STAR Marine general. Former? U S! Secretary of defence and former thoroughness, remember we hear the process Peter John Drastic say the United States calls Jenny James matters and there's this because in the courtroom, Reporters begin furiously matching on their keyboards and many in the audience crane their next to try to catch a glimpse of the former defence secretary, and I remember one spectator in front of me. Her name was Marcy. She looks back at me and said: do you if I went up and ass for his autograph would be ok but I'll increase. Burke says the generals? Own performance was far more understated than the spectre surrounding his arrival. He's obviously
a well known witness and one whose was considered to be an important witness and part of it was his reputation and even his nickname, mad dog matters and then he walks in his demeanor his presence and even his tone of voice, really contradicted that meant she really was more avuncular, more alike. The grandfather who is testifying sitting on the stand. General matters in a quiet but steady voice proceeded to tell the court about his initial encounter with Elizabeth. It was real the first time we ve heard him or any board member discuss the topic publicly at such length. General matters told the court. He met Elizabeth and twenty eleven or twenty twelve at an event in San Francisco, where he was giving a speech, he testified that, after the event, Elizabeth pricked his finger
To give him an idea of what the machine blood draw was. He said that's when he saw their noses many lab what he described as a box like device sitting on a bench right there. He believed the whole thing happened backstage but said he couldn't recall for sure it is said. His interest was immediately peaked. He told the court he was very impressed with the technology is Elizabeth described it thinking, it could have came changing benefits on the battlefield. I was taken the idea that, with one drop of blood and with remote capability he testified, you could basically test for a broad array of problem an entry eyes where you have casualties going on. This could be there very helpful for medical personnel. If it could do she said it could do general matters told the court. He could instantly see the military applications plus he explained he was impressed by Elizabeth
describing her a sharp, articulate committed General Mattis, even shared an email he sent Elizabeth in August, two thousand and eleven in which he wrote young folks, you remind me why we need to keep hold of the freedoms we enjoy. He was very falling, consider it in his references to Elizabeth HOMES, but there was nothing either his demeanor, his tone his language or even in his answers that indicated he was angry, annoyed upset with her individually based on what has happened with Sarah knows. Do you think that type of disposition is going to help his testimony in the eyes of the jury? I think it acts really well, because, as he sat there, he did not appear
be someone who was trying to get retaliation or get back at someone because of the position. This left him in throughout General Madison Testimony Elizabeth watched as she has now each day of the trial sitting up, pin straight her chair eyes focused forward, general matters explained to the court. He based all his judgments about therein owes on what but I told him I had other source of information on it, as he put it. Madame said in twenty thirteen military casualties had not relented, and I was interested in anything that would improve the key. Of casualties. I was a strong believer to get this in theatre for it to stand and deliver he's. He was thinking about real lives on the battlefield and he believed Elizabeth when she set her machine, could help people and be deployed quickly. Ellen crates Borg says
this part of Madison. Testimony in particular, should have resonated with the jury The continual reference to the theatre, bad zone. Our troops, people who are set who are dying or need diagnosis, put a human side to the testimony and allowed the jury to at least think about what could this have possibly and if it had actually been accurate and understand why general matters would want to get involved in it. It also implies Lee without bringing out that testimony demonstrates how dangerous this device could have been the impact it would have had on individuals. Soldiers, I think, on sit well with the jurors general maddest join that there are no sport in twenty thirteen after retiring from the: U S Marine corps and right around the time their noses big deal with Walgreens was coming together as a list
with told the Assisi and twenty seventeen deposition. Some matters as a powerful addition. Did you have a relationship with the matters prior to his? Yes? Well, I knew him initially sunken and then I'm a little bit improver silvery when he left the notary, provided that it is worth it The most brilliant stranger said much like the other former high ranking government officials on their noses board, including sacrifice ways of State George Shots and Henry Kissinger General maddest brought with him a lot of gravitas cachet, but no background. In science, General matters, told prosecutors even asked Elizabeth. Why she wanted him on her board, considering I was not medical person.
According to Matters Elizabeth said, she thought he could help her build a corporate culture, build a lead teams and get commitment out of people. In an extremely human exchange matter, told the court when he became a fairer, knows board member. He went to the book store and bought books to learn about how to be a board member I studied. He said and highlighted. Every book asked General Ass general matters about his first board meeting in October. Twenty thirteen and how much Elizabeth took the reins. Miss homes was in charge, probably one hundred percent that time maddest testified. It was in that meeting Elizabeth also, allegedly made some pretty bold. Claims government showed the jury slides from her presentation, one in
correctly, asserting their nose had been comprehensively validated by ten of the fifteen largest pharmaceutical companies and that did been endorsed by the FDA, the World Health Organization and reach. Torture is at Johns Hopkins University, which it hadn't this was it third party validation impressed the general because it in just Elizabeth talking about it, he said matters said he was also presented with information that there are no staff were better, faster and cheaper than competitors. Had he Otherwise, it would have hampered my enthusiasm significantly, he testified, but general matters also testified. He wanted tool You see how NOS devices performed alongside pre existing systems to validate the claims. No such tests whatever and up materializing. It all
appears. Matters took on a bit of a protective role in Elizabeth Life as well. Tibet celebrity grew. Madame said farmers coterie of state. George Schulz called him an express concern, than Elizabeth High Profile was going to create danger for her so matters connected her with his former chief bodyguard at U S central command. To give her personal security. By this point, Elizabeth was hearing before giant audiences, all over the country. We see a world in which every person access to suitable health information ACT, It matters a world in which no one it has to say goodbye to soon according to madness. He wasn't it. Providing Elizabeth with Council or even security. As one of her most high profile board members, Elizabeth, all,
to engage General managed to do interviews on behalf of the company general. I said Elizabeth controlled what he could and couldn't tell the media and He believed what she was telling him. He didn't fire. This to be an issue at first, for example, recall that star make Fourchan cover story by Roger Power Laugh from June twenty fourteen, it played a growling legitimizing Elizabeth, but when the c c deposition her in twenty seventeen, it became clear. The article was filled with untruths. Is a statement that Theranos currently offers more than two hundred and is ramping up to offer more than one thousand of the most commonly ordered blood diagnostic tests, all without the need for syringes. Is that statement correct reading it? Now? I don't think it is The profile also said, Baroness quote, does not by any analyzer from third parties,
thing. The general also believed to be true at this point, but here what sunny and Elizabeth had to say about it in separate as he seed oppositions was out, your statement in June, two thousand fourteen. No, it was not cancer Pro often those unfairness tests were wrong. I'm commercially available lasers thing, so general matters was also quoted in the article, giving added back in weight to Elizabeth story. She really does want to make a dent in the universe, one that is positive matters, told parliament it and again, when Canada was profiling. Elizabeth for the New Yorker general matters testified. He was given talking points from Elizabeth one. Struck- did him not to discuss that there was a single device that does all tests. Maddest testified that at the time in September, of twenty fourteen he thought such an omission was rather
strange because I thought we been kind of out front that there a single device, we ve created an integrated, decentralized, more platform. We call the many web and why would we want to hide that? Here's? What can let it told us when we interviewed him matters. He said to me when I interviewed him that idea. This would be wonderful if we could have these machines and ambulances in war zones and be able to test Andrew soldiers right there on the way the hospital if there were any weaknesses to general matters. As testimony LA professor Ellen Crates, Burke believes he showed up during the defences Cross examination General matters told the court he invested, eighty five thousand dollars and Baroness, when he joined the board, was that is never can investment for you at the time the prosecution asked for someone who had been in government service for forty years. Yes, Madame, replied
general matters was also paid a hundred fifty thousand dollars annually for sitting on the board, but that's not exactly how he remembered it at first in the cross examination. So US examination certainly did score certain points. The lawyer was very respectful to general matters, but they elicited the fact that, as a member of the board, she was also paid a salary and when asked what it was he couldn't actually remember, but he said he thought it was about fifty thousand dollars and they brought up document to bring out the fact that in fact, it was a hundred and fifty thousand dollars, and I suspect, they're gonna try make a lot of that to show. Perhaps he doesn't member things accurately still. Professor crates Burg believes It is mostly bolster the government's case with his testimony, but problem the defence is gonna have is
At the end of the day, many of the statements that he made about what happened are not really disputed. The rubber intentions made by others their homes to general. Matters are not factually and dispute, and so under putting his credibility in one sense doesn't really help the representations he made us too. Their facts, especially the claims Elizabeth famously made that therein devices were used in the battlefield. Something Elizabeth Testify two and that, as he see, deposition was as baroness manufacture device ever deployed. The battle battlefield was ever deployed in a manner that hotter. General matters told the court. There just became a point. Didn't know what to believe about their knows any more. He said. Looking back he's disappointed in the lack of transparency.
I couldn't see why we had been surprised on such fundamental issues. He said ass, he exe Linda jurors, I took his good faith that what we were being told was accurate, and I assume that when we received nose results that was from the Theranos machines. The general left thereunto send twenty sixteen when he joined the Trump administration. Ladies and gentlemen, the twenty sixth secretary of defence, the honourable Jim Matters, he says now that he has a more complete picture of what was going on an era knows he has major regrets here he is being interviewed and twenty nineteen on PBS by Judy Woodruff Beer Association with a company thrown us. It turned out to be a multi billion dollar scam. You promoted the company's blood testing tech makes when you were in uniform you, sir.
Its board and retirement. How do you explain what happened? You know Judy once in a while. We can all be fooled by somethin. I think that the technology least point of the medical people. Experts on the board thought it had great potential as far as promoting I wanted to put it alongside what we were already doing and see if it could develop much faster, remote locations, the same outcome: we never got it there. It had to do with FDA regulations that sort of thing, but the bottom line is we all make mistakes at times, and it is obviously the mistake on my part to be part of it, but I I would rather trust a little too much at times, because most people will not
betray the problem. This is Milky hosted ABC Daily NEWS. Podcast start here, more drop out in a minute, but first everyone like shopping online, but the worst part is knowing somewhere someone else out. There got a coupon code that you don't have, but you can exceeding online a breeze with capital. One shopping capital when shopping is a free tool. Instantly searches for available coupon codes and automatically applies them check out just download capital one shopping to your computer and let it do the work for you so easy. You don't even need a Kapital one card to use it capital, one shopping kind of genius. What's in your wallet savings and available coupons, very lots of us avoided going to the doktor during the pandemic
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on it for free and book a top rated doktor. Many are available soonest today, so Zaka that Z, o c d, o c dotcom, slash, drop out a quick reminder if you're looking for a daily recap at today's news, including dates on the Elizabeth homes. Trial join me over on start here, the daily podcast from ABC News again that start here available. Wherever you listen, recall the whole disruption at the top of this episode. Just before general matters started his testimony. There was no arm wrestling match, as judge dollar joked there was a guy whose testimony was interrupted prematurely, that guy was price, Waterhouse, Coopers or p, W C employ Justin, often Justin, works on a team called investigations and forensic said Peter you see and they were hired by fair analysis, former law firm to collect and provide data to the US he see and the deal J the data
polluted emails text messages, Skype conversations basically anything saved on Elizabeth Laptops, desktops and self out. Just in and his team spent over ten thousand hours working on this project rack not more than five million dollars and fees. They could Did a five hundred and eighty nine page spreadsheet that included twelve thousand one hundred thirty two communications between Elizabeth and our former boyfriend, and there are no c o sunny by Ahwahnee remember before the trial. The government wanted to introduce these messages into evidence, but Elizabeth Team block them. A dollar ruled the government needed to prove authenticity, so they called in Justin many of the messages were entered into evidence, but the actual list of all the communications is much longer and we have obtained a copy of the entire document providing unique
insight into Elizabeth's thinking how much she knew over the years about what was really happening. Inside of theranos and, of course, her relationship with sunny. For example, Tibet and sunny were aware. Some patience we're having really bad experiences with their nose in November twin fourteen sunny rights to Elizabeth Customer service seems to be terrible. Everyone complaining her response, yes, later the same morning, sunny text Elizabeth, fundamentally, we need to stop. Adding fires by not creating them again. Elizabeth replies. Yes, in April twenty fifteen at the height of Elizabeth Media Blitz, sunny tax her about breakfast meeting with famous Silicon Valley Angel Investor RON Conway, who said, Emily, never invested and their nose. Sunny rights RON commented that
there's too much hype around their nose in you ask why I I worried about overexposure without solid substance, which is lacking right now we can talk to about overexposure Elisabeth response. We can talk. They are just jealous Finally, there are the many messages that shed some light on Elizabeth and sunny is romantic relationship on July, fifteenth, twenty fifteen, for example, Sonny Rights, Elizabeth, I worked for six. Here's day and night to help you sad where you and I are. I thought it would be better. I you're angry in your way and upset with me for not do when everything you wanted me to do. Initially replies with three question marks, but then response. It's just hard to transition a few men the Jews later sunny says I leaving until we break even we will do
together- and I will by your side until then can't leave like this Sonny goes on to say I am responsible for ever thing at their knows all have my decisions too, and I will transition until you're in a perfect place. You know that you're under estimating the challenges and being childish. I've been telling you four months Elisabeth replies. Its Kay just was emotional, but am ready, and I completely get it on the challenges. Sonny then replies unfortunate you don't and breaks my heart to see you like this almost two weeks later Sonny such as Elizabeth. We need to come to each other and get out of this hell, so we can live in Paradise. Elizabeth
spawns, I have literally been meditating on exact, same whole time I was running. I was thinking that I want to tell you, but another podcast you might like one where you might be able to help right. The ending hear me out the year is ninety. Ninety eight, a new computer salesman and John Roof was just been sentenced for his role in one of them or just fraud. Scams in american history is ordered to show up for his prison sentence, but instead he just vanishes. Now, all these years, the? U S marshals in our team or following the clues tracking down leads from across the country and around the world all along the way. Asking the question: have you seen this man help cracked the case the podcast is? Have you seen this man and its available now, wherever you listen of all the things the government accomplished this week? Perhaps the most important
was reminding jurors about the human impact of this story: Elizabeth HOMES and our company. There knows didn't just asked wealthy investors, their money, as general matters testified, there were expectation since there are no could help save soldiers in the battlefield and as we're about to you from a doctor and a patient, there were Ives impacted here at home to remember them, knows, had big aspirations to build wellness centres and Walgreens stores nationwide. As Elizabeth told a fortune conference, During an interview in two thousand and fourteen, are you able to say like in five years how many Walgreens, you might be in sure so there's eight thousand two hundred Walgreens nationally. That would put us within five miles: Reverie Americans, home owners who are working to do but the only states farragos ultimately made it into, we're Arizona and California doktor address
Ben is a nurse practitioner who works it in B g. Why an in Phoenix Arizona, doctors, Eichmann testified. She first turn about their nose in the summer of twenty fourteen, when a company rap visited her office party, Doctors act means job at the time was evaluating new products there are no sounded to her like a great option project, John Bastard asked what factors went into evaluating, whether or not to use their nose and doctors. Agnes said the most important things work. It was reliable cost effective and how good turn around time for the results. She was also enticed by the less invasive nature of a finger prick, especially for pay. Since who needed frequent blood draws. There are no seem to check all the boxes, so doctors act and her colleagues began recommending it to their patients.
Including a woman named Brittany. Gould who was called is the prosecutions next witness. Brittany had suffered three miscarriages by the summer of twenty fourteen and Boston ass her if she felt comfortable telling the court about her struggles with fertility. Brittany told the court. She had a hard time. Hearing pregnancies passed the first trimester, usually right around that twelve weak mark. I would lose my pregnancies and suffer a miscarriage, but after so much loss in September of twenty fourteen Brittany risk good news. She was pregnant again. She visit doctors Eichmann shortly after taking her at home pregnancy test because of Britney's history of Miscarriages her pregnancy was deemed higher risk and required closer on assuring blood tests every few days. If you and through a pregnancy or dealt with infertility. You know
importance of these tasks, tracking see g, it's a hormone, use during pregnancy age hcg is supposed to double every forty eight to seventy two hours. In the early stages of a healthy pregnancy after Britney's, first each sagey blood tests through a lab, called Senora Quest doctors act, recommended their nose, testing a lesson of Method which she could do through just a finger prick as it turned out. Brittany, whose also medical assistant had already heard, about their knows. They were recommending it to patients at her own practice, so Doctors Eichmann recommended therein those tests to track Britney's age, Fiji levels. She thought it sounded like good idea, it would even save her some money. As she told the court. My plan was a high deductible and it was more cost effective for me,
two days after Britney's, first see G read of one thousand five. Five on a non owes test. Brittany received her, First there are NOS Hc G test results. Twelve thousand five hundred fifty eight it wasn't abnormally high value, but not indeed, of the miscarriage Forty eight hours after that she got her. Now there are nos eight Fiji test. This time her level had dropped to a hundred twenty five a very troubling indication. Doctors Eichmann told the court. I remember communicating to bribe me that it was looking as This was a non viable pregnancy which would make it her fourth loss. When the prosecution asked Brittany about this part. She will like she was fighting back tears. Her voice, quivered she'd, receive
goody bag for new moms. When she arrived at doctors, Zachman's office and by the end of her appointment, she was discussed In treatment options for the possible miscarriage, despite anticipated loss, doctors. Eichmann wanted Brittany to continue taking Hc G tests to ensure their wasn't pregnancy tissue still present in her body. So these later Brittany had her blood on again, but this time it was by Sonora Quest her level. Nine thousand five hundred fifty nine Forty eight hours later she took another Sonora Quest tests. Her level had nearly doubled again as it turned out, Brittany was still pregnant. The thoroughness tests were wrong. Would go on to have a healthy baby girl. La professor Ellen,
rights. Burke says: the emotional toll of Brittany story was impossible to ignore. Even oh jurors, have been instructed to look at only the facts. You could see it In her demeanour on the stand, you could hear it in the upset in her voice ten years later, most way, then certainly would appreciate how traumatizing that could be. It doesn't have to be put up on the screen or testified to directly and so that emotional component was coming through loud and clear. Through those witnesses they didn't have to actually verbal eyes it in their testimony. Do you think the emotional impact of her testimony will impact the jury, even though its not supposed to jurors icing? Take the instead actions very seriously when the court tells them that their not to consider the impact the emotion it means it won't be part of the discussion. It won't be,
your conversation in the jury. Room cause when it comes up. Usually there is at least one durable. Saint judge told us not talk about that, but it may affect the lens at which they look at the information that there following Britney's experience. Doctors Eichmann testified. She felt uncomfortable as a provider. Anyone to have her patients receive their nose tests. She sat in the course of her career reviewing Thousands of each CD results she's. Never had a test accuracy issue like she experienced with Brittany. She described this circumstances as very impact full to her and that it always stuck out. She filed a complaint with there knows and said the company was receptive but didn't provide with anything that would restore her faith in the company. The defence did ashore. Cross examination of doctors, Eichmann essentially attack
trying to show Britney's experience was anecdotal, not statistically significant. Remember it's appoint the defence. All emphasised in opening arguments when Lance Wade told the jury to keep in mind there are no generated, eight million test results and misdiagnose patients were just a fraction of the outcomes, Of course, what he didn't say was their nose was forced to void two years of its test results. When it came time for Britain its cross examination, the defence didn't have any questions there. It's nothing to challenge her on her testimony was very factual. I took this blood test somewhere from Sarah knows here with their results. The numbers Indicated to me that I may have been miss carrying any cross examination,
illicit, more emotional response, even though she was clearly trying to be very calm and the witness stand and so sometimes lawyers need to know when not to stand up, and when not to ask questions the general and the patient two vastly different experiences with their knows that both reflect the deeply human all this story sometimes has, we're star, luminary, hoping to improve soldiers, lives on the battlefield and a mother looking to confirm her pregnancy. Yes, it's technology were talking about here. Facts figures: devices but the human factor can sometimes get lost in the weeds two witnesses this week, reminded us. There were actual people, your lives in question here, something the guy
It will no doubt hope to remind this jury throughout the course of the trial. Next week will take you inside the testimony of one time, theranos slab director Adam rose endorse, who tells the court he came to believe the company care more about pr and fund raising than patient care. When you see the lab lab was not working, what do move? It wasn't wasn't accurate result. He testifies to but he says were serious problems with the thoroughness technology and paints a picture of Elizabeth trembling. Clearly upset before the war. Its launch tuning Tuesday, firmly Elizabeth homes in sunny about wanting did not respond to requests for interviews for this podcast general matters through representative told us he's too
to what his testimony stand on its own and won't be making additional statements for doing interviews the drop out as homes on trial is written. Written reported by Victoria Thomson, Taylor done and me Victoria's. The executive produce paler and I are the brooding sirs for a busy audio Susie Louis producer and Madeline Wood and Marilla Malarkey or associate producers are field. Producer is Deah, Athens for Ebay sees business unit or associate producer, is Victor, are donors and our production assistant is laying went mixing in scoring is by Susie Loo and Evan Bio Ethanol, superimposed, music for the drop out. Our work is by Teddy blanks at chips and why Cedric HANS Tat for every see audio Liz Alessi as executive producer special thanks to Josh Coherent, Elizabeth Rousseau in Rosenberg, Aragon from Testacea Sheesh go be sure to subscribe to the drop out podcast and if you like, what you heard leave us a review
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Transcript generated on 2021-10-18.