With this week's Fireside Chat we hit episode 100, featuring the man who came up with the idea of PragerU - Allen Estrin. Tune in as Dennis and Allen reminisce over throwback stories, plus a surprising reveal from the day they met... Have a question for Dennis? Submit it here: https://www.prageru.com/fireside-chats/#ask-dennis
This is an unofficial transcript meant for reference. Accuracy is not guaranteed.
Put that you like a unicorn, that's good. I hope this is being should be a quarter account here there. He oh wait a minute, I'm really it's gotta go under the mic, he's. Definitely so yeah. What's that No, it's inconceivable if he wore it. Everybody unholy calamities it would. The stock market would sink and I'll say that ok, ready. Hi everybody you're, probably wondering why is Dennis wearing this done. Tat sounded a party had an answer is right here, episode, one hundred thirty one hundredth fires. I just so it's a big deal.
Normally would not where this, but basically Megan, who was the unofficial producer of the fireside chats asked me to do so. She asked my colleague friend and co founder to do it So what has he pointed out? He he didn't do it when he was five. He certainly not going to do it now that he's twenty five, so I've done and happy birthday anniversary to us at fireside chats, I'm Dennis Prager, this my home, is busy today, and we you all know why by now, but this very special, it's the hundredth one. So I figured. Why don't you meet the person who actually came up with the idea of Prager you? It was not. Idea. I always make that known eyes. The idea of taking credit for something I didn't do actually repulses me, I'm I'm a big believer. You get
credit where it is due. Alan S, Dron was my friend for thirty years. Very dear a close friend is the. On an producer by radio show for many years is the person who came up with the idea and island is known to many of you who know my radio show was the living martyr. It's funny, nickname that he actually developed on his own. But it was so fitting. It's really. It stayed how many years ago, it was on up listener crews by been taken cruises with my There, for now about twenty five years and from Antarctica to two to the North Sea, I mean literally all over the world. Every continent. On one of those cruises, what happened to friends of hours on the crews approached me and they said we should start
a Prager University. Let's do something along the lines of hills: Dale, let's, let's create a new place where Dennis values can be taught I thought about it for a bit The little research came to the conclusion that it would. Probably cost us about two hundred and fifty million dollars to get started. Take ten years to build a building. Maybe after that time, we'd have a thousand students graduating. I didn't want us, take that make that much effort. Take that much time, but I Had a nother idea that I've been percolating about came together when they made this point about
a university which I like the idea of doing something, educational at that this was now I think, two thousand and nine two thousand and ten. I thought let about we do. We really make use of the internet, let's create something on the internet. So then, I started researching what their people had been doing. Edge occasionally on the internet and mostly what people were do was day there were. Occasional places, but it was a professor standing in front of a blackboard talking for an hour, and I knew that's not how people are consuming. The internet would certainly not how young people are consuming the internet that dovetailed with the idea that you have a special gift of being able to distil complex ideas. Into a short, coherent timeframe.
So then I started thinking about well, let's make boards videos. Those on the internet how long should those videos be and that the five minute idea came to me very quickly? seemed seven minutes just fell to long. Three minutes wasn't enough, I was a nice number Our number- let's just do five minute videos, and I will- back to these saint the same guys and said: look what you want is going to cost, two hundred million dollars. I don't think you want to spend that kind of money or raise that kind of money. Huh. But some seed money, twenty thousand- and they said. Ok, let's do it, let's try it and they gave us the money and we
When, when we got back to LOS Angeles, with months later, we made our first few videos, which you actually add lived, there were no scripts. That's an whole nother process that developed they had lived- and I remember the first Middle EAST when I had was outlined. So let's go to actual by the way a lot of this is- is against new to me, but I don't remember it so it's knew to be, for all intents and purposes so ineffective. Really it was some to other people's idea. The idea of a university was was its first sitting on Lee and an art dear friend. The later may rest in peace, Carl Bowman, that's where they had the idea of the universe. So you could give them. No, no! No! That's fine! I may look I of course it's yours but above, but that none of it
today's resolution, used the word university. I gotcha, so came over to me on the ship correct I do remember us, we were then, and what are we playing hearts? We, which it's amazing say it. The ring hearts besides, I don't allow anything to intrude on beating you with one of the goals of my life is to win at hearts at every the time, so you must set it right before or after the game than and then Sir, my reaction, as I remember was fine and that was it I didn't I I don't get excited. I I think you were entreated me that by the idea, but there was no sense of right. Let's, let's absolutely. We have to do it lets starting now. I say that every body, if someone had said to me in the beginning, you a million views a year. I would have said, from your mouth the gods ears. I would have not believed it was gonna happen.
I want the mystic review that something like that could happen. You know it's that's. Actually. A tough question for me raises a bigger issue. I never think I please don't think ahead right, I'm I'm with you. I know it aside with correct how many views was going to get. I won't do you know what you'd be to do you? I didn't have a sense of what what was a lot of views? If you had said to me, this video gets ten thousand views at that point. I partners wow. Ten thousand people saw that's that's, that's that's a good start when the Middle EAST, the first one we did. The Middle EAST problem got a hundred thousand views right. I thought that was beyond belief right. I used to say
that, like twenty five in the early days, twenty five thousand Jews was a single. Fifty was was a double hundred thousand. Was a grand slam home run in the bottom of the night for those of you outside of the United States. These are baseball terms yet their lava gonna lodging outside. That would be like somebody for us using cricketer tooth scruffy softly anyway. It was a home run. End to this day, I don't, I don't think about what you're going to be like in five right, We don't know me I'd, say deadlines. We have to do something to Morrow. We have a job to do tomorrow. That's right, yeah, that's exactly right! I I live that way. You know one megan I'd like to talk about that, because people are told the lot think we're You gonna be five years from now. I've never forward before five years from now in my life I I knew what I wanted to do with my life, but that
that was it. I didn't know where I would be in five years and it didn't matter What matters is that my doing something worthwhile now and this was worthwhile. So We started it and we put out wasn't every week. Oh no, it's! Actually it was. It was like every six weeks. We are just trying to test the market. We had no, no, Geller Pattern, it wouldn't even be like every six weeks would be one week for weeks Fourteen weeks, what was that One was it my fundamentally. A Middle EAST problem was the four interesting which is which was redone with a script yeah, even though that the ad lived one worked out well, but further most people aren't gonna, be able ad Lib so wouldn't have worked. Though it was not. It was not a pattern that we could have kept know when we knew it wouldn't work. When.
You decided that we couldn't ad Lib. These things because even the way, I'd live well even very, very well restrained better than anybody, but we it has to be written, be made at a turn. Every word has to be care cause it's Dr Minute, us right. Every word has to come and permanent, exactly right, So now we have a billion views, ear and We are also in something else we would not have anticipated were, were or were not very big battle for free speech on the internet I mean I
I have come to realise, this battle is so much bigger than Prager you. If Google can can do what it wants to do. The conduit of all information practically in the free world and is is stymie us they put another hundred of ours on on the restricted list and that that was just because their angry at US ass, very difficult for people to grasp how big this lawsuit is. If we lose, then Google Facebook, Twitter truly have a blank cheque. Yes, to do whatever they want very late. They will have, there will be the courts will say: We are putting no restraints on you. You have nothing to fear
while there is only one solution after that, which I never even entertain, and it only hit me now and that is that Congress would have to pass some sort of law, maybe break up a monopoly, but that the threat to free speech in America is is the greatest. American history, that neither you nor I engage in hyperbole- that's that's how serious it is. So I think people would be interest. It is well to know of our relationship. So it's it's it. We we met. I think we can actually virtually date the month, because you were asked to write a script by David Zocor that the great director in Hollywood, who he and his brother did airplane, which is one of the classic farewell
correct. Just that's accurate, but we had- and I know we both feel this- how I want to give credit to rich Marcie good, please you're, rich, who was working with David Zocor it at that time, as is his producer. He was the one who approached me because rich and I were working on a script for a Disney at the time, actually funny idea having to do the oars. The March brothers and he told me that. In David wanted to do a an educational video with you. And he asked me if I was interested it at that point in my writing career. I had made the decision that I would not. Any writing at all, unless I was paid, was just kind of a blanket-
because I done things in and not been paid and didn't work out, and I just thought I gotta be paid or not and are doing is a professional screamer. That's his profession. Ok go so I said, Who is who is this guy? So he tells me I owe Not now I knew who you were. I just started listening to you. What year is this? one thousand nine hundred and ninety one and the whole back story of how I started listening to is a whole nother story and rich tells me that the key and David want to do a project with Dennis Prager, and I said- and I couldn't- Amy. I said what what what? What are you gonna pay me anything? No, we don't have any money to pay you, and I I thought of
really overnight and ice. I call them back and I look I'll do it because I want to meet this guy. I really like the way he thinks and I broke my room and then the interesting thing that happened was that in preparation for writing- and I knew I had heard heard you enough to be very- very entreat so to prepare for writing the script which, for what became, for goodness sake, Rich gave me the Vienna, a binder full of ultimate issues and ultimate issues was a news letter that I was publishing at the time on my own people who went to my speeches subscribe and that's where I really worked out my my philosophy of
if an Mai theology, so he gives me a binder of the ultimate issues and he gives me a box of tapes over the next. I would say we now. We would say binge watch, but over the week I consumed all the. Read all the ultimate issues: listen to all, the tapes are probably were ten or fifteen tapes, and the one that really got me was why I M a Jew, which was the first recorded lecture you ever sold and in that lecture, it was like. You were describing my life. I was that person who is so. We had Jews had assimilated so successfully in America wanted to marry
a Christians, because we just we felt so comfortable. This was all this is what was happening to Jews over the last couple hundred years. So, by the time I was our first meeting, I was very, very excited to meet you and I actually brought with me. I brought the Mai Journal, you know I keep a journal and have since nineteen two or something like that. You have it. I have our first media yeah. I have. This is all new to me. Folks, I'm glad the glacier earlier is some. This was by the way here. The most discipline, the person. I know- and I say that totally matter of family you know why I have to be disciplined well, you'll tell them it's a fascinating theory of yourself that you haven't of life.
Ok wasn't what you are, and one of the many manifestations is that you write every day in your journal and even if it's just a paragraph. Sometimes things are in here that I really dont remember but rough course, but it's it's it's fun to look back. This? Is from ninety ninety one? What's the date now, here's the great thing Can I make the argument right away for the journal you I have no idea what day we met you, you would you how to figure out the year. You could do it if we really want a majority view, but- and I couldn't either Because of this journey- and I can tell you exactly know it- it was November Monday, I would even knows Monday, right growing Monday November, twenty fifth nineteen, ninety one where we we may was in century city and offices city.
The headline I often road headlines of what happened that day met Dennis Prager exclamation Point- and this is what I wrote today was enough working day in my life. I met a man who Has changed the way I think Dennis Prager, yet Asian was to discuss the outline, Susan Silverberg, she was a woman who collaborated with us on the script and I have done for the goodness video, that's what it was called it If, in my. It is my fond wish that this will be the first of many meetings with Dp. To have this great me, and, as my friend would indeed be an honor. Work, he is doing, is of such great value and importance.
That's why I'm so delighted to be a part of this video project, a project which will help spread his and then I putting quote his gospel, ethical, monotheism, the meeting itself, when better than I expected dp wildly enthusiastic. At one point, he said that this was one of. Quote dash moments of his life. He sees that- and I underline that he sees that much value in this video enthusiasm was both rewarding and infectious. It was also inspiring, God is moving really are really moved I've? Never. This is all new to me. That's the beauty of having a journal. People wish. I kept warm, but I didn't.
I asked my father if he my late father on an interview, I interviewed him on my radio show it every year on his birthday. I asked them. We heard it this year. Could we replace some of them F dad? Do you have any? threats, none. I do this and this is certainly one of them by the way it's important that people know you can watch this. That what we made at still with some of the biggest actors in Hollywood, thanks to David Zocor, with his contacts and its it's on the internet, its free right people could just watch, it's called, for goodness sake, and it's really worth it. It's very funny very funny, and it's about goodness and especially kitchen. Should see it. Ninety ninety one is twenty eight years ago. That's when we met twenty eight years ago, and I remember that
I didn't keep a journal, but I remember very well meaning you and I was very excited meeting you. So You were excited, meaning I was well you it's ok let slip by other spouse, my wife. She would left to its very fine people in my life but and humble, but that was it was. It was obviously very important that meeting, and so we collaborated on the script and folks you could watch this, sir, this and then we, the two more with David Zocor. We one on on an end, it's just as relevant eyesore. It's also on the incident, and it's it's about diversity. It's really we really worth seeing
And then I don't remember what the third was, but the am I did the diversity while with Larry Albania, and we did a sequel. We call it, for goodness sake, Tis, oh, ok, fine, but it was. It was two parts It's really really worth you folks, So there's a little funny story about about the second one we did David could not direct the second one. He was busy, so he said to us. Look I can't do it, but I can recommend somebody. I met the two guys there very talented, therefrom Denver Colorado, they just arrived in LOS Angeles. I think they would be good for this project and we should look David in a year. The calm comedy genius.
You say there got their good. Their names were tray, Parker and Match stone. The first project, tray, Parker and Matt Stone did in Hollywood, was, for goodness sake too. They arrived in Hollywood in hand, a beat upon the civic. And that's, that's how they they started, and I think I got what you say you I agree with you go ahead now. I think it had yes at an inn. A big influence on. I am correct. I do believe that I mean we ve. There is even a trial means South Park. Republicans. I mean I'm not saying they're they're right, Republicans showing their viewpoint was right definitely shaped. I think a very good way
I tried out. Really I felt it then I felt it since not too many people know that. No, no, no, no, I'm sure their origins story, I'm sure almost nobody does anyway, it's all available on the internet, For the rest, as they say is history, I think it's it'll interests. You, you folks, watching this, that I worked for years to convince you to be the producer. My radio show and the reason that it took me years. He didn't want anything to even possibly interfere in our friendship, And I was certain it wouldn't you were not. You were not a certain and what you understand. We were hesitant about was, I may remember and I have no problem saying it would. I would I take criticism
producer of a radio show who have never has a criticism of the cortical talent. That's what they're called the people on the microphone is useless. How do you get better if its nobody's critiquing you, it's not possible. And so I assure you with have sure you assured you. Finally, you took the leap, so I think they're curious. Can I take criticism. Yeah, you can take criticism and I can give it. Roy could take it. I can give you know something goes both way. Yes, I mean No, we don't hesitate, has attacked because it's only for the greater good
It's only know what that's another subject. I should talk to you. How do you know if, if you're criticized out of love or criticized with with with darker motives and an n and how to handle that and how to give it, how to give it is as important as how to take it. We both had the same goal, which is to make the product better. Yes, I got all that ever matters had its arrive matters at Prager you, it's all that anybody. Up with a better idea. It right. We, a very whores until structured Prager, you everybody contributes. Anybody has a bad idea. Will wool This this is the power of being united with a higher value. Your ego gets, gets pump out of it. It is that doesnt doesn't play a detrimental role and that's that's the case. A pregnancy case on a radio show and
that's enough and we have a lot. We have a lot of fun on the radio show I mean you have to admit it. I mean it's a unique, I mean what you say About having fun and Alan have to put it in perspective, I have I doing radio show was a great deal of fun. I love doing it and at the same time, when I'm doing it all business, no it's getting its all business, I'm thinking every second, I know of the show, is this working s not working, and I can't and you can imagine, no one can imagine. The amount of work that goes into the Joe both on your porn. On my part, people theme, which is what I want them, I think that I show up, do the breeze and go home only the of
The amount that's going in my brain at any given moment the amount of preparation the night before. The amount of preparation you do people who subscribe after the show. In the end, it is a great idea, get it without commercial school, prig utopias, five dollars a month, prig utopia, dot com, you will not only get the show at any time and keep it, and then it's very powerful stuff, but you will get all the arts cause. He sends me the night before this. Like a living compendium of what's happening on on earth, our eyes, casinos, directly. What I want and you get his brilliant- Fifty one line comment and what is done on all soon alive? Fourth, if Europe and sometimes burst out laughing. Your dismissal of up of a fool if, in one sentence its anyway. It's a pretty utopia about trying to sell you anything, but I do want you to know about it, but
It is its extraordinary thing to do something every day for three hours, its intense while you have a great phrase for which is the radio's, relentless mistress yeah. Is she never write a very demanding yeah people expect the on every day and I'm on almost every day. It's it's its intense. It's a fantastic job, fantastic. Bye, bye. Thank God out only every day, but there the there, the people most people, don't listen to the radio for three hours. So we, every ten minutes, fifteen minute they make go away,
I'm back, but we we have to get them whenever they tune in, which is why, as you say, everything every moment has to be interesting. Yes them of that. That I do I keep looking Megan. Did we divide do something on interesting? I did I do. I think I did a commentary on the fireside chat on on the importance of being interested, Check into that cause, if that's it so obvious, when you say it, but people don't think about it. It is. It is the key to all communication or communication of any type musical artistic intellectual, religious, it doesn't matter so anyway, we were in a lot of I am. I was going to say you know, like God, Together, I. I'm always hesitant, because I don't know
from special enough that God will intervene in my life, but if he does, he brought us together. Put it that way, you're less hesitant, not not enough because of lack of humility, but I think you're you're. Are you more comfortable with God has acted in your life, I'm more comfortable than you are. There are people who I think more comfortable than me right, but I'm a little further along on this scale than you right. And not only that, but I have had the same. Afternoon lunch Sabbath day in internet Judaism, lunch with Alan and his wife Susie
for now how many years and one other couple I think that started like a nineteen. Ninety three we started doing out on a result that that's that's twenty five years, that sir that's another incredible bond that obviously we have some very rich life.
Were and we're both unbelievably grateful. I know that so that's that's how Prager you started. That's our relationship. It says it's, it's truly a great one and two to when I speak on the radio, about the importance of friendship. I know what I'm talking about cause. I I have benefited my whole life from male friends and not not that and I believe women do from women friends. I am a big believers, same sex friendship of identifying on friends. I have anyway, I'm always afraid of repeating myself, which is stupid. Number, including me on. Point the first time we gotta hear something over and over and over and over anyway, that that's it that's a big one. So should I take some questions or or of we already exhausted our time were at thirty wow look at TAT it by Branchlets needs clock inside.
So so Y know maybe you're taking question. Ok, I'm fine within I love the questions. All right, so here, Sarah thirty, three Modesto California high Sarah honoured. Fireside chats. You said something that resonated with me. If you weren't a compromise, your values, when will you stop? This was about parents who call me then say, will watch. I tell my daughter, she's a college and she knows that if she expresses a non left wing thought she'll be penalized. Ice by her by her professor get a lower rate which happens regularly and so I always say to them. Look I can't tell you what to tell your child, of course, but you're calling me up I'll just this is what I. Tell my child that if you start to compromise your values for grades, when will you stop compromising your values.
It's not a rhetorical question, it's a very real question. You might say. Ok. I know I will compromise my values to get a good grade. But after that I won't ok, but it's a question. You have to ask yourself. And I know I know a bench appear from: I have enormous respect them. It was a colleague and friend does incredibly important work. And the bench appear when I were both scholars or speakers at a retreat pass over holiday and the the subject came up and This is one of the few areas Denison I differ said. I think it so important to get conservatives into Harvard and Yale and then the prince than in Berkeley and Indian Stanford, and so on that you know if you gotta just Keep your mouth shut about your ear, your efforts,
primitive ideas, it's worth it and and I respect that. So I'm giving you- you, Sarah, an argument in that regard, but for from from my perspective, I rather I rather have people fight and end up at the less prestigious universities or graduate schools, because, as I said, I think if you, if you compromise you pretty much, don't stop, then then she writes. Do you think this applies to friendships? If two people have completely different value and they still be friends. What depends on what the definition of a friend is for me, a friend is someone that you that you share your most, the you say anything to that's the the ultimate goal I believe of of friend is someone I could talk to about anything, but if you're gonna talk to them about your,
I'll use, and then even the nicest friend said. You know why I reject them completely. I mean that's. I have the opposite view, one every one. Of course it has to affect the friendship. I knew anything So on this, my thought is this: it was yours. I mean it's very hard for me. I mean people talk talk about this all the time I wanted it it's hard to be friends. You can be acquaintances and pal you leaving Rennes legal friend Lee with, but to be friends with somebody who's who can share your values that it off. I am not sure, I'd even want it. I wouldn't want to work that Unless you felt you you could persuade them to come to your point of view and that you, it was kind of like a worthwhile projects. Of course, look, there are people who know someone emotions fifth grade and they have such a bond from from childhood.
I guess, if you could just with amendment ignore it I get here, but but ultimately, values are too important a veto. That's that's all to a large extent to we are what what do we stand for this attack. One, I mean really tough, that's why I tell you this this. I am adamant about on a one people with dropped, I'm not saying drop friends, and I certainly want you to keep your relatives as in the loving way, but if you're dating somebody and don't share values that I'm sorry, let me put it bluntly hanukkah how good the sexes it doesn't matter its cause. I I can't imagine what forces keeping people who don't share values together,
To be perfectly honest, is that fair rob? I think that's the realistic way k in all take one more here. This is a right now Zaire, twenty six in Jordan I asked Megan to make a list of the countries that we just got questions from I mean we don't even know every country when we do really you do throw. I think they don't do we get reports from the internet on on what countries people are watching, It's an enormous number, I mean it's basically all over the world and the only place that doesnt watch Prager you videos is North Korea. And and this in particular the fireside chap everything taken off beyond anything. We. We imagined that this, This is seven hundred thousand every week and The way I just want to say to those of you a lot of you.
Regulars, and I really appreciate it. I'd like to double that number and all you need to do is you know, tell somebody else about it. It's even if they don't agree its. It is interesting. And that's that's important, so here's I eat and Jordan hello Dennis. I'm Christian and I'm grateful for my country, Jordan, protecting their christian community despite the muslim majority, but I still have some serious criticisms. My distant uncle was murdered due to the lack of freedom of speech in Jordan. Seeing the western nations restrict freedom of speech disturbs me as I've seen the effects of at first hand is there
we hope or solution to grant freedom of speech rights to the rest of the world's nations, especially Middle EAST countries. Well, I will just tell you this. I e the bad news is that the freest country in human history is having the most important internal battle since the civil war over slavery, the war over free speech, the left, the supposed to free speech and the right and and for that matter, sent the centre or adamantly for this is this is the battle Prager you was fighting. This is the battle at universities. It's free speech is a value. It's not a human instinct. People want to control other people, people are afraid of free speech, they might hear something they don't agree with so
It's worse than your question, you worried about it spreading to middle eastern countries and and by the way I agree with you, and I salute you forth. But if we in America, the country of the statue of liberty, if we can't protect because one of the two political parties and end and end the media and the social media, and the key Edric, the the educational institutions and the newspapers are suppressing free speech that this is. This is the battle at this time, any any thoughts Elam while its context us back to the are our caisson against Youtube, yeah that this is truly then the Tipp of that
spear and ethics important, not only for the? U S, it's because of the: U S leads if weave, as you point out, if we, if we fall down on this issue in a very bad thing for everybody for the whole world, and I know I'll just end with this- the left in rewrite history and rewrites lying which so that, for example, there are no longer illegal immigrants- is now undocumented immigrants. As I've I've said there number of times on my radio show, maybe the remain burglary or or a bank robbery and undocumented withdrawal Do you know I just read the you know that they're getting rid of the disabled list in baseball? Did you know that I've gotten rid of it? Riddick describing injured, listen here because it implies.
I use that disabled means that you can't play, but the disabled can play. What if your disability comes from an injury. Which is what usually happens. It's silly, but it's not silly. This concept, no, it's frightening Julia S, judgment ray it's it's meaningless, but but it s an empty trivial example. What's that, if that were the only example I wouldn't, but in its happens everywhere,. Anyway, Alan Oh you didn't bring a cake. I was serious of cheese, sheep cheese with and not only sheep tee with handle wax. That's the best type of sheep cheese.
Thank you, that's very sweet. Oh you, ve got a chance to see, make that truly cheesecake. That's like a slice of cheese. Now know it's a slight that is chief. That is not cheap cake right. This is jeez it and that's very sweet. I can't believe it's the hundredth one, this is obviously very meaningful to ask us. I M a busy high and I've, never miss this. It s a great example of one of my in. I have lots of rules, and yes, your rules, terrific and I don't. I don't take credit for this one. I wish I could give credit to the where I first heard it, but this idea you can't accomplish a lot in a day or a week, but you Canada year. The people stop themselves from doing things because they can achieve what they want immediately. But if you think about giving up
A year to develop, so is a great example. That's fifty two fireside chats in a year, but that serious that serious. You're right away, how would they blowing out on the road I want that of law amount is accused of the air conditioning arrive. So I wish Many many more years working with you said a good wish at second wish, Ok, everybody on an upward to number one hundred and one yeah. Thank you Ellen. Thank you. Thank you for watching. If you'd like to keep these fireside chats free, please do by donating to Prager you.
Transcript generated on 2020-04-24.