He ate and made him to define three pounds its past and you indirect. Before we get going as you likely, no Minneapolis police officer dared Chauvelin was found guilty on all three charges in the murder trial of George Floyd, it's been almost a year since George flights deaths sparked protests around the country at our last Thursday's podcast, we discussed how views of police reform and the black lives matter. Movement had changed since that, if you misapplied gasped, I encourage you to go check it out today. We're gonna talk about religion in America and what, the declining number of religiously affiliated Americans tells us about our society and politics in a recent gallops, the number of Americans who belong to a church, mosque or synagogue, big a minority for the first time since tracking began just twenty years ago?

Seventy percent of Americans belonged to one of those houses of worship today, its forty seven percent, while that does not mean that a majority of Americans are not religious. The number of religiously anew deleted. Americans has also been increasing now matches the numbers who are either evangelical or catholic. Religion plays an important role and how people view the world identify politically and vote until cured me to discuss what these trends mean. Our senior politics writer period. They can junior high Perry good to see you also with us, is political science, professor at Eastern Illinois, university Ryan, Berge Heels pastor in the American Baptist Church and recently wrote a book on religiously unfilial. Americans called the nuns where they came from who they are and where they are,

and, of course, that's nuns. As an n, o n e S, not an you and ask, but welcome Ryan things are joining the shower today, thanks so much for me on gale, so we have a lot to discuss but to set the context for this conversation, how significant is religious identification for determining pilot behavior, that's obviously incredibly complicated right, because religion interacts with rays which interacts with age with interacts with rural versus. Urban. What we do know is that there is identifiable patterns in the american electorate when it comes to religion in some. Here's what we're seeing as political polarisation sort of leaked into religious polarization and on one side we got well my books about the nuns which are growing rapidly, but also humming, a more and more central part of the democratic Party. The coalition that Bowser Democrats is becoming a bigger share of

every single year and on the other side we ve got Christians, especially white Christians, are a core part of the Republican Party hears couple stats in two thousand eighteen. Fifty one percent of Americans certified is white and christian. It was seventy five percent of Republicans rewarding Christian in thirty. Eight percent of Democrats are widened so I really seeing is we're seeing for this religious divide, the leak into the political which one cause? The other obviously is almost impossible to figure out, but it does seem I can America more and more people are coming to understand, to be religious, especially be white in religious, is to be a conservative republican and to be religiously on affiliated, is to be a democrat and illiberal YAP per year and Ryan recently wrote about this for the website, and you spend a lot of time looking at surveys and talking to Americans, how do you conceptualize the role that really gin plays and how Americans new politics in the world. So I think right instead of a lot of what's happening, the

eating, I would say, as black religious people tend to be very democratic than the one thing, this very distinctive, as he said, among white people that tends to be more or less as a ten zero go along with more conservativism among african markets does not the same pattern. Latino patterns are loaded, more complicated, so deferred arrived. I rather Tito's a little bit in those patterns. Yes I'll, let you know Protestants in twenty. Twenty were fifty, the literally split right down the middle, but latino Catholics are whole different story. They were two to one for Joe Biden in twenty twenty, which tells you you know for them. The type of since you are actually matters a lot, because American Protestantism has sorted become synonymous with American Evangelical ISM, which is becoming more and more conservative as every year passes, but a lot of hispanic Catholics come from a tradition that about liberation theology? Let's say it has its roots in central and South America, where the church is socialist in some ways and radical in some ways the left, and so those

ideas sort of come into the american ethos, especially in predominantly hispanic catholic churches, so well seemed really ever seeing a divide, even among the hispanic community, between Protestants where fifty fifty. But if you look at just hispanic evangelicals there about six thousand five hundred and thirty five or so with some third voting in there but overall, but we're seeing as the catholic vote hispanic vote is going to the left rasa, seeing the hispanic evangelical vote going to the right. So that's really an interesting community that sort of fracturing, I think, but Parrys right about black presence. I think one was interesting. problems facing the modern Democratic Party is that it's become a larger and larger. The nuns, especially eighties agnostics, were incredibly liberal incredibly far to the left, but the other side, one. The course of the Democratic Party is black Protestants who a majority of them do not favour same sex marriage and are not in favour of a lot of problems, choice programme. So how do you hold a coalition together when you have very far left nuns, but you also have a lot

pretty conservative black protestants at the same time in it, that's a problem for them going forward. So how would you describe the different religious groups in America and perhaps by political identity, really amongst Christians, you ve got your evangelicals or eighty percent republican. They voted Super Donald Trump in twenty twenty. But then you ve got another call mainline Protestants and Parian. I wrote about this in the peace with any there such an interesting group, because they are like the United Methodist Church. The Episcopalians United Church cries there. The kind of yours that used to be the largest church in America, in the nineteen seventeen is thirty percent of all. Americans were mainline protestant today, it's only ten percent, so they're a group, That traditionally was slightly right of centre, and today there fifty fifty there literally split and have some are republic is in some are Democrats but the kind of Republicans they are not even Jellicoe somewhere. What to call country club Republicans, which means they want low taxes, because Lotto have higher education and high incomes. So that's what the government of their lives but their qualities?

Can we talk of a route you were married or whatever, however, on economic issues They want a small government now. Catholics are really interesting story because we just talked about white. Catholics are training to the republican side, while Spain Catholics are turning to the other side. Yet the catholic Church in America is becoming more rationally worse, then. You ve got a whole bunch of smaller religious traditions like Hindu, Mormon, Buddhists, Muslim that are actually training toward the Republicans, but together they dont really make up that big of a share and then obviously that we got the nuns which is what we just talked about in the nuns are growing rapidly. There were twenty two percent of the population in two thousand eight and there

thirty four percent of the population to day over forty percent of millennials in Genji, identify as religiously unofficially aided in their growing rapidly. So that is the growing religious electorate that we need to be thinking about going forward is the nuns they tend to vote atheists, agnostics, our seventy five percent. For the Democrats, the other group, which is really what the books about a group called nothing. In particular, they are not so liberal there actually in the middle of the political spectrum, but they make up twenty percent of all Americans, their black, their wide, their young, their old. They have a couple things in common but the big thing, I'm com is they ve low income and low education, and I think there actually, the swings in in the modern religious electorate and the other groups are pretty much locked in their not switching over time. The nothing in particular are worthy elections, gummy one in the future. I think this is going a little bit unless Ryan is getting it is that, maybe ten or fifteen years ago, if you talked about people who are non religious, we were mostly thinking about white educated, liberal peep

now we're talking about the people who say they are not ability with a religious domination, is a third of Americans them getting beyond, is why youngest liberals and these coasts there are more more black people really younger blogger, more latino people really younger people Older people who are Democrats are moving away from search, submit you're, getting is likely. Due to a third of America's getting everybody to some extent and when Ryan, Look as well you're, smarter than what I ve learned from. It is, as you said, it is like this. No religious blog is one third of people, but atheists than agnostics are distinct, from simple you to say nothing in particular atheists in existing to have very define our religion. listen. I don't believe in it. There look at hostile to it. They are sceptical of it, and those people are very edge. It is more male, very, very democratic, and then this They give particular group which is much bigger ideas and agnostics about ten percent of Americans. There's nothing to lose by twenty percent of Americans in their their more like data

but it certainly more, maybe their parents zeal but they're, not gonna, say an atheist They didn't have these strong disbelieve either so they're, not as educated there. More racially diverse when they met in the peace, was the black lives matter. Movement is not religious itself, it didn't come the black church, but black now it is people tend not to be. Eighty is an agnostic, so is black. Nothing in particular someone who their parents with a cherished a mother goes the jurors, so they're not anti sir they're nice, not in church themselves, and this different than an agnostic, grenadiers present, who might be kind of weary of church itself and get a weary of religion. So it sounds like this agnostic. Atheist group had something pretty familiar with in terms of american culture. It's been relatively visible for a while, but this nothing in particular, which may mean people who have maybe some vague religious views, but don't feel

Rancho like one particular religion. Why is that community growing, to the extent that it is one of the possible explanations, is pure just be more honest now than they used to be in others. This thing we worry about in social science, call social desirability bias. We know it well yeah yeah yeah, which is the idea asked you on questions on a servant, lie to you. They tell you what they they think you want to hear what actually going on their lives and so for a long time had been American was to be a Christian. So if you are asking what are you you just say: I'm a Christian, because I'm a couch with whatever it is, even though you haven't been to church in decades or years at least right. You have no real attachment to it, but what happened over time? as it become more socially acceptable, have no religious affiliation instead of saying your Christian Catholic on a server yield to say you know what you're shrub into meat for them. Nothing in particular category is it's for the shrug categories. I am not opposed to religion right, but I am also not an atheist or agnostic either. If you look at things like church attendants, almost no eighty is ever going to church,

Very few agnostics ever go to church, but something like thirty percent of nothing in particular, is actually go to church once a year or more so they're not completely detached from religion. They just like the label that is attached to it? So you know last year, the growing so rapidly, I'm not entirely convinced their growing, I'm just more convinced their revealing them. So and being more honest with what they really are, which I think in some ways, so scientists as great as we're seeing people for what they actually are now not what they think they should be. So I think Parrys exactly right, and I think this is so key like education thing, I just its analysis today on that forty seven percent of atheists have a college degree in forty five percent of agnostics. It's only about twenty one percent of nothing. In particular, there are literally the least edge hated religious group in America to day and when it comes to economic, sixty percent, nothing in particular make less than fifty thousand dollars a year. Once only thirty five percent of atheists,

when it comes to where they are demographically, they could not be more different and so to put them together into one group is really just sort of paper over not just small different this book, dramatic differences, and I think the way the parties needed for reaching out these groups has to be completely different, because what nothing particulars want is not at all what atheists and Agnes they want a lot. Another particular just want to make more money higher minimum wage. Maybe some universal health care atheists, you're worried more are things like racial issues or social issues because they make plenty of money. So I think the parties have now come around understanding what these groups need and the nothing particular group that needs a lot from the government, but it's just not well equipped to organise to make that happen. Yeah. That's interesting point I think when we look at some other countries or even other religions in the United States, as you mentioned, for example, we think of you and Johnny

as having a well defined political identity. We have time to think of Jews as having a pretty well defined political identity in a country like France, there's a pretty well defined politically to be around secularism, is that the case at all amongst nonreligious Americans, the issue with America's were generically but we still are generic religious, even though that the fact that one third of us, so we have no religious affiliation. We have called a civic religion in this country, so to be an American is to be religious. I think that's what rates. As from your even today, and by the way Europe is way, more secular, We are even a country like ITALY, eighty percent of people, ITALY don't go to church once a week I mean here, it's thirty or forty percent of people are in at least once a month or more so we're still more religious than they are, but were also culturally more religious than they are in France. politicians in France or Germany or never say something like God bless France or God bless Germany, but in America, every pollen mission, regardless of whether it was Donald Trump or Joe Biden or Brok Obama would always. I was in

just by Saint God bless American, and ever all we're gonna go yeah. You know we haven't got, we trust our money. We are just more of a generically christian tradition. I think that's actually one of the reasons why the atheists agnostic numbers, are so low in America because there's a lot of bias against atheists in this country. If you actually asked him to rate people on a thermometer score from one hundred being very war and zero being very cold idea from two thousand twelve. That shows that Democrats raided atheist. Second, from bottom, only above the tea party in two thousand twelve, so not like the Democratic Party, is even embracing atheists M either. So there's still a lot of discrimination or prejudice. This built up in America against the atheists community without love of the african american community, it is in that community is, is almost non existent. yeah, the numbers that show very low numbers of black people, say that they're at a theist and very shows most of their agnostic is well, and I think even the Democratic Party

You can tell that. Secularism is not that's wrong, because Joe Biden Dogs, with his vade every ten seconds, so it's like even in the Democratic party you can tell Obama How much you will charge you definitely emphasizes. Christianity Biden does with practice readily done Tromp was not. Someone appears to charge a lot but play that up during his campaigns, I think, is Ryan, sit right now. I think if one party had allowed You're, who was openly non Christian are openly nonreligious debt that might even angry these numbers further in terms of secularism is, I think, right now, we have, not their religious identity, is ok, but this sort of that would lie a religious, not really. This is not something is very strong in the culture, but I think if you had one famous politician who made that more acceptable my chain,

so we were saying earlier that in part, this may be that people are being increasingly honest with pollsters and these surveys, as it becomes more culturally acceptable to not be associated with religion, even if it still not totally culturally, except one to be easy ass. At the same time, we are seeing a change in behaviour that it's not just what they're telling pollsters right like attendance at church belonging to a church synagogue must, I started off, this conversation by saying that those numbers are falling significantly why's that happening ya, think Two things the nuns like we have talked about rising rapidly, but there's as other thing going on an american religion, I think, is under covered by a lot of folks who don't really get into the lots of what processing Christianity is about, especially in that is the fastest growing progress and tradition in America. Today's non denominational protestant Christianity, in almost all these charges by the way are evangelical. You know that means there can if the illogically alot of more conservative, politically their growing very

rapidly. This the mega churches, you see on TV on Sundays, they broadcasting another their services to cable news networks, a lot of them, but here's the thing a lot of those, not that our mission of churches actually pride themselves on being everything at church is not what they are so like. If there is membership and the episcopal church, we don't have membership. A lot of these denominations have roles at day back decades and centuries, non denominations, don't take a role at all. They know have membership at all, think it's an outdated and outmoded concept, and so what happens? Is people instead of making strong ties, traditions? Now they have really weak ties patients. Are we actually you're seeing a lot of non denominational move from one denomination to another, non nomination back to denominational back and forth. But what's really interesting to me is not like these non denominational for adding new people. If you look like denominational decline, that southern Baptist Convention, which the largest evangelical dynamic works in order to domination America period, almost everyone who This is about convention,

thirty years when it became. Denominational evangelical so is out there Switching traditions right there, just moving from an old style of worship, to a new style of worship and from a demographic per second incredibly hard for us getting. Even membership role. When we ask you are you a member of a church? That's an anachronistic idea, the dates back in fifty years. We will go nowhere every week, but I'm not a member anywhere, so I think it's there nuns driving that down, but I also think it's the idea he's entering membership is a religious concept, is also driving them down as wells were masking the reality that some people are still religious they're, just not members anywhere. I mean I do think people are going to church Let's do. I think that is true, and I think we Are now forties, I'm in this sort of I'm just not that I'm running yes, nor did you count as a millennium. I think

a mere video, but I dont bigger by submitting their enough. There are many ways, so the old pattern was people. Maybe grew up in church, went to college in their twenties. Maybe stop going to church had. Kids, we back the church and the millennium generator particularly, is now ease. to buying a house having kids but not going to church, and I think those you you go to them. The discharge of the would have you around communities that you find is the old People are dying, The dying in the younger people in their forties, their kids, are not going to church. So we now entered a phase to wear adulthood. Does no longer involve joining it shirts formally our a- and I think that is a shame. Did I think, just generally, and I see that more and areas of drawing up a new out of the universe. you know the way you wouldn't go to church now. I know more black dog insurance either. So has now grown this sort of disengagement. You know we have a religion on Sunday. I thinking Griesly, it's the Unifil and I think that is

where our societies changing in a certain way, yellow Paris, but we got. There is actually terms this. An electrical the lifecycle effect said either religious. When your kid, you drift from reality you're twenties and you come back you like and early thirties, when you have kids get married, all those things and if you The data now that is not happening at all like every birth cohort now is less religious today than it was ten years ago I mean every birth, or even people who were born like the nineteen, thirty nineteen forties, others as well idea. You will tell me, like: oh, you get more religious as you get old cause you're cramming for the final rioting making sure that have you die you and that's what someone tell me once but agree, but he has not actually not true anymore, either like people on their sixtys and Seventys are actually less religious today than they were like in two thousand and eight even at the same level like eight percent less religious today than they were twelve years ago now, amongst younger generations, attire return, eleven or twelve percent of increase the nun rate, but its secular zation has hit every.

thing in every body and every racial group every age, every region, every political party week you can't get away from it when its thirty three percent of the population. I think we dont fully understand what it means for the future only sixty percent of people consider themselves religious. How many churches are gonna close? How many cherries are gonna close working? can I do for the social services. These churches are doing right now in twenty years, when they don't exist anymore. This societies gonna look a lot different. We elect the first agnostic, present or centre right now we haven't done that. We are on the precipice of significant cultural religious change and we're only beginning to understand what that really means. I want to talk about what that specifically means for our politics, but first today's podcast,

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who diaries that woman is Ladybird Johnson, the former First lady and wife of President Lyndon be Johnson. Leaderboard Johnson were quartered her thoughts from November nineteen sixty three to the beginning of nineteen. Sixty nine, it started with J F K. Assassination spam the Vietnam WAR and the fight for civil rights and ended with the assassination of Martin Luther King Jr and Robert Kennedy find out herself the story on in plain sight, Ladybird Johnson, Bilbil now on Apple podcast Spotify and your favorite podcast app. You mentioned how our society is changing as it becomes less religious and churches, synagogues, MOSS houses of worship become less the centre of our communities. What does that mean for politics like how much these religious institutions structuring our politics and as they potentially fade. How will that change the way we do politics in America, so whether you see on the democratic side, I think is that the only way to you know

John Kerry, I'm Runnin president, I'm going to appeal to black people. Now here's my list of seven churches. I wanna go to you on the in Ohio or in whatever swing state those days are already does. One thing we can tell clearly is like these sort of black charges: the organizing function for democratic activism, for democratic votes? You should go to church to to talk too old. People in this one way to mobilise them. Will you take it, under fifty black proud, that's not the way to do that if you're trying to meet them- there's a bee earlier. That's not the way to do that. I think there's one place to go on the republic. side. I think what you're seeing is a shift in it, the numbers of like one third of republic and are white or even ogresses. Iran's my letter to the number you we think it evangelicals Vienna rollicking party, that most republican voters are not evangelical and increased, members of republican voters are not religious or small number, but it's a number. This group

so I think the Republican Party, if you look at it closely, is becoming a little less the christian right and a little bit more anti. Look, is a or like anti identity. Politics are kind of cultural, conservativism a bit broader than just religion. I guess a George W Bush really very little person tromp was not trumps. Sort of appeal. to religious, but the even talk about Hizbollah big enough to wear the Republican Party can't afford to ignore it, but I think the idea of the Republicans are more focused. on Trans issues than say gay marriage. The number of Trans Americans is fairly small. Number of Gay America's verses were very large scale. To change the issues. A bit. So I just think the even All right, as it was organised in a couple decades ago, is not is powerful and therefore it s the move to different issues and can a smaller than I think your vote tomorrow be culturally conservative. I think bananas early christian right. I think that's already happening Perry on Sunday.

guess so crucial that we have only begun to, conceptualize, which is the religious right, was a top down movement. I mean it was orchestrated by guy like Paul. Why reckon Jerry fall well and Pat Robertson? Do using dynamic all networks to activate people at the local level to turn out involved. So Domini a very strong and in eighteen ninety, so you can use a seller Babbage convention as they exist everywhere in this country. In the ninety nine, but like we talked about we're, seeing a decline, the number of denominational evangelicals and we're seeing a dramatic increase in the number of non denominational evangelicals, and it gets really really hard to community hey. Do these non denomination churches, because by very definition they are not top down. They are bottom up, some of your republican pilot trying to run and stay or a nationally. You can't go the southern bags convention and talk to. Million or two million people all at once, you gotta go

This shows that fifteen thousand natural, as eight thousand, because there's no networks that connect them any more and Shirley. What's happened with the EU, Delegates from this in this country is has gone from top down to bottom up and it's a lot harder, to organise to get you? people in line when there are bottom up in. Actually, there is some evidence now that one, the reasons that we got Donald Trump was because we lost that top down structure that we twenty or thirty years ago, even fall well, Robert from those guys probably would have not back Donald Trump if they were still I believe they would have picked another candidate, but because those guys exist anymore. It's all bottom up in the bottom of the sea. jellicoe, the bottom up, the rank and file or incredibly conservative over fifty five percent of white evangelicals in this country today. What to reduce illegal immigration to this country by fifty percent. Thirty five percent and favoured the family separation policy of the Trump Administration

so taken together, their way more conservative them, even what the religious right was twenty or thirty years ago, and I think in some ways no one speak, Why evangelical ism anymore? It's all! Does these islands are all working kind of in concert, but not really sometimes disorganized way to get out the vote in that's one reasons. Donald Trump was the nominee and not a more establishment candidate, like crews Rubio, who would have been the nominee I think twenty years ago. This is a complicated question, but why do political and religious identity overlap so much and it's also a kind of chicken or egg question, which is that does people's religious tradition in form how they behave politically or do other fundamental characteristics like

race, or maybe even education or income or age, more define their political behaviour, but then also graft onto their religious identity. You ve probably can't separate the two as perfectly as this question might suggest, but where are the boundaries between like why we can t about why even jocose, ok, they're all voting for Republicans in Jews at eighty ninety percent, their voting for Democrats, ok, black Protestants at the same levels. There voted for democratic. Why is there so much overlap between religious identity and political views. So we used to assume that religion was like for the first cause, and politics was downstream from that, like that, with the literature always assume for decades, because it made sense We're taught to have our past or we teach our people a biblical worldview relic, see the world Jesus would so it makes sense that politics is downstream of that. But there's been some recent work. Michel Margolis his book from politics that abuse really this, I think really well on a couple pieces recently using really good personal data. That shows that people now are

wording their religion based on their politics, so there actually picking a church that matches their political persuasion more so than their pay you church basin, of theological positions of that church, and that's something You ve never seen before. It's almost like politics has become the first cause and then every a sort of downstream from that in our lives now, and we are actually seeing that in terms of sorting things out, one of the big things running. But a lot recently is this idea of cool ourself identified, evangelicals and self identity. Evangelical. You know we asked you to separate questions. What are you? U religious tradition, and we ask you to consider yourself to be evangelical. The share of people who never, a ten church or seldom attend church, but also identifies evangelical, has gone from sixteen percent to twenty five.

So now we're seeing never attending church evangelicals and we brought you can't be that in a like yeah, you can because people are beginning to understand that even Jellicoe is not a religious or theological identifier anymore. It's become a cultural and political identity higher, so Gb Republican is to be an even jellicoe and to be a Democrat. Is to not be an event, whether it be being Muslim are being another being a Jew or whatever it is. It's like the public is figuring out there there's a religious divide in this country, and it lays on top the political debate- and I think the evidence before the mounting now that politics is causing all those things to happen much more than religions, causing it to happen. He's worth noting, like historically, the black church denominations the black as an entity was started, there's a kind of alternative to white churches who were view is being insufficiently concerned going back even further in slavery or closing Jim Crow, so black charges can have always been bullet

and a lot of the EU in general, a white. Even Georgia's movements started in the wake of Brown, the Board of education. I'm just started, then that was part of movement apart Louis the Roby weight. So the back there waiting Also, it is a re Republican is kind of a feature of what they ve always been detected. Black charges are kind of a line with black political causes as a teacher what they always been so in their wage church has always been political. Where I think is changing is then in the sort of outside of those two is the Increasingly a lot of people who used to be Democrats and Christian they'd come to view Christianity, White Democrats or what Christian. They came to believe that the Christian means being Republican Indochina report. Into their moving away from precision in his Ryan City of also assumes the Republicans who were before different kinds of Christians.

Saying me, I'm evangelical magazine, because beer holiday, the same things you're, seeing an alignment of religion and politics there was unusual were in some ways. Religion is wing politics is Ryan was there, but also religion was always get into politics. Is there some of that is already set of endemic to the structure and nineteen? Seventy six, fifty percent of white weekly churchgoers for Democrats. So that's Catholics and Protestants. Fifty percent and thirty five percent were Republicans, and now it's fifty percent applicants and twenty five percent are Democrats. The church has never been so politically divided as it is in the last fifty years. At least as it is right now, because, basically, to be white and christian in devout to be. Why out? You know who goes church once a week is to be a report, more and more and even among moderate denominations like United Method, stay becoming more public and overtime too. So really this fusion three White Christianity and Republicans-

his only growing stronger overtime and they get casting out a lot of moderates who are becoming religiously an affiliate because it cannot fit in with increasingly conservative churches. In reading your block vera lots of charts that help conceptualize this data that we're talking about, and you see that, as you chart religious traditions, overtime in America, a lot of the religious traditions you seem a little bit of line, but a relatively stagnant, that's the case amongst Catholics and sick is amongst black Protestants, Jews things like that, but then, when you look at mainline Protestants, you just see the numbers of Americans affiliated with that religious tradition catering at the seams. and you see the religiously on affiliated people really rising in this target. Basically, works like an ax, so I'm wondering did mainline partisans August come religiously on affiliated, did they filter out two different religions and that's why those religions in decline so much like what is going on with mainline Protestantism in America. So,

Eighty percent of american nineteen. Seventy six in his ten percent today, that's on track me five percent by twenty thirty, the where's mainline prizes almost sixty years old. Now how many Episcopal Churchill Robbie half the size? It is today in ten years, because only fifteen percent of a have children at home there are some staggeringly bad numbers for mainline partisans because they used to be one of the upper edge? hated, more sophisticated type of christian com, polite Christians, because they are not good. You're going to Hell. But I got to go to church once or twice a month and they're going to help out with the food pantry. You know it's like the social thing to do, but unfortunately, what's happen, is a lot of them were driven out in the nineteen. These is really one. Evangelicals telecles met its peak, it got almost thirty percent and ninety ninety three that was really confluence of events that was win. Abortion became a national issue Cemurphy Happenin, one thousand nine hundred and ninety one thousand nine hundred and ninety one where abortion became from a national talking point when it wasn't really before that. But the other thing happen: Dude Gingrich, contract with America, nineteen.

Before Follow Robertson, televangelist, its peak and evangelicals are very good. about telling you what it means to be a Christian, what it means to not be a christian a lot of mainland browser. You guys are really Christians. You know, we belong your cause. You dont believe all the things that we believe about in the version birds in there, or resurrection, and women can be pastors, and things like this and so a lot of men As you know, our Episcopalians were moderate said you know what I'm sick of trying to be loved and with the full wells and the Robertson's and even Delicatessen Jim bakers. I really don't church that much anyway, so I'm out I'm leaving Z baby coming I have to get up on Sunday to go to church. I don't have to worry about dropping money to donation box, so it's just easier to be a nun. That's part of it, but here is really where religious changes happening. Is generational replacement, older generations who are where religious are dying off and re remain liners our old, their dying of rapidly and their not being replaced with many young mainline protestants. So if you look

for instance, eighteen to twenty five year olds when they come into adulthood, a use of it? percent of them were nuns, and today's over thirty percent of them are not so what happened? is because it is being raised nuns now, so there's a lot less switching, I think, than just replacement where people deserve raise with no religious tradition, I think the other thing we haven't thought about is: what do we do when we have second and third generation and we were nuns all the way back to the grandparents. We really never seen that on a large scale before and when No is retention is really hard to break so the nuns retention used to be about thirty five you will raise, none would stay known as adult. Now it's about Seventy percent so what we're going to see is a lot more solidifying. I think in the nuns you're gonna grow, because people or born now you're gonna be stay nuns as they become adults so with the main nine, seven became evangelicals, small portion, alarm became nuns, but then items died off Edward.

By less and less religious people who came into adulthood would just less attachment to any religion, all mainline, protestant or even gel gardening else. One thing ran in the book that I think is important to emphasize is it we tell a story about people who are more liberal, moving from church because what is right, there's another story here, which is the generally societies countries, Europe, for example, that have higher education levels and high income levels are not, but ITALY, religious and so America's also having a lot more people with colleagues, degrees and masters degrees, and we ve been a high and the image of a long time but it may have been in inevitable course than America would be more religious. The way Europe is and is in we're sort of catching up to their core. anyway. There may be a story here, this kind of less about culture dying. Makes it is more about like education and is generally were acidity European found the country on a level and were catching up to that.

And so my senses is another gears around these. We might get up in ten years and what we have is lacking. Latino people go to church more. I think Joe is a separate them out, but we may end up with like white searches now the domination over really it is full of Republicans and then white Democrats who donating charge at all and call themselves whatever, and then so did a core group of black and latino people who don't know who are nuns of some of whom attend church till. I think that's where we're headed is a world in which there are no ton of white Democrats going to church, and there are a lot of Republicans still do go to church and our lot of churches that have why Democrats and Republicans in the middle? That's really. I think the biggest story is that if your white christian Liberal, especially in rural or suburban America. There is really no church for you anymore. I mean, unless you want church. People are seventy five years old, Episcopalians work. Finding rapidly, and even the United Methodist, who wore the second largest denomination, showing a split in the next couple.

over the issue of gay marriage and can serve as a pragmatic, a big hunk of them. So it fascinates me that two thirds Americans are in favour of same sex marriage right now, but you cannot find it church and most rural counties in America that would do a same sex. What it I mean, there's just such a huge divide, cultural divide, I'd over social issues. Russell cultural issues, import, we're seeing They also- and this is the a part of the story- is we're seeing a lot of educational prairie talked about secular zation comes of education, but even people who do get educated leave rural areas and go to suburban and urban areas in a lot of em don't get, has to a religious tradition there right, so the p stay stay in the truth. They grew up in people who leave don't ever get re attacks. The church and oftener moderates for liberals. So it's Oh right, the idea that Rural America is Christian America, but is becoming increasing true overtime, that to be a white Christian Rural America is to be a republican, and I don't see anything Turning that around. Actually, I think I see it accelerated-

if anything over the last five years, I think we were like Donald Trump is gonna turn off. Why angelic orders, gonna turn people off to Christianity, the sheriff can through self identify, as evangelical is the same today as it was twelve years ago, so he is not here evangelical ISM as a brand. At all. How do you like we talked about this less religious, but there still about twenty four twenty five percent of the population and there still incredibly republican, actually more republican today than they were even a decade ago. So it really is fabulous. or a purifying aspect: The people were left are even more republic in the people who were last a long time ago and went to become something else ray. I think I haven't oftentimes river group identity. As you see yourself as more of an outsider or a smaller group, the group identity becomes even stronger, even if you're saying that the actual levels of relief,

osity overall have declined. Religion has in many ways, served as organizing structure a principle for american life for a long time, and as we ve mentioned politics, as America becomes less privileges. What do we structure our society and politics around? Like? Does politics its own religion, are there other secular institutions, organisations that come into play. I lived in does it for awhile Madison Wisconsin. They actually had a freedom from Religion Foundation which, as you can imagine it's like a very progressive. Why college educated town, so it sits. The stereotypes have an atheist or an agnostic, but like what becomes the organizing structure principle for society in politics? This is lists academic and more does Canada. What I see is

used to me, like crossfire germs. Yoga on the left is all those that have an exercise culture on his shoulders. Maybe Bronze Hilda Tube exercise culture on the left. This would have taken over in urban areas and often takes place on Sundays. You meet together with the same people. I think that's part of it think some other twitter social justice. Reading Hebrew can both sitting. Does a religious aspect of that part of the left as well that I think people are getting motivated, getting just meet each other Rina same books, trying to push for denying this parliament as well as I do think this parliament, that sort of the law, one thing that I see on the right, and I think there is still a fair amount of like church going as such are not zone as what sort of replaced that I live in a rural area by country's forty thousand tonnes. Fifteen thousand- and it feels like religion still very strong. Your church going is still very much the normal,

but the other thing. It's actually growing sports local sports kid sports travel sports almost have kids to around. Here. You gotta, like travel two hours ago to eternity, we can and that's almost become sort somewhere, weird, like pseudo community, for allow these parents their kids, play all these different sports and idle time together. But I think we are just beginning to understand, like the impact of social media is having everywhere in this country especially in small towns like Facebook is, oh, so influential in small towns in America when you had the mayor or the coroner or the sheriff posting things political things on Facebook. All the time that in some ways organizes these groups in some sort of weird way that sort of replaces released and in a lot of ways- and I think rural America is- coming even more fragmented, too. By the way, I think that the idea being urban and lonely cause you to live in a part of our cell Urban America doing that, but also Rural America's doing that is. Is religion declines. It has to be replaced by something you know: people like oh I'll be,

so happy when religions gone in America, but my thought is: do you think it's not gonna be replaced by something it's not as bad? If not worse than religion, I mean Europe has not solved its problems, because it threw off religion in the Post war period, which is replaced them with other things. That thing is religion is just a totem for lots of other things on society and whether be race or whether be gender or whether it be ethnicity or whether be politics, those divisions, human beings, very good about creating us versus them, and others? Catholic versus protestant Republican versus Democrat we are always going to find ways to separate ourselves and the different groups and the decline of

religion is letting these other things. I think politics is chief among them rise up and take on even more prominence in the lives of the average American that it didn't even have twenty years ago, and I think there are some dangerous to the decline of religion is Ryan's. Guinean is like black churches have been a pillar of communities where people you know get food, they get support, they get so on those very big uses for the wider. You knows her does have traditionally had refugee programmes have supported people I give you have actually you'd need support, churches are actually an institution that has been helpful for a lot of people for generations. Diversity create division is No, but I think where does that go and where are these issues? It can help you if you need help in what are those look like is a real question and also and was a famous book of years ago, called bowling alone, and also just this churches do provide, a sense of community and Bowling Lee

due to and we are seeing a general fragmentation of institutions while people look on their use to twitter and Facebook. for community and I think there is any more studies showing why debts problematic I think it's already clear the fact that people leave so much misinformation is problem relates to the fact that their not bound any institutions that have rules and norms and so on. So if church goes away, church provides food. For me close. Your people rise of refugees places to go it. Churches, don't do that. Who is going to step in the gap I mean atheists agnostic growing rapidly. I don't see them setting up social service organisations that work or even at a regional level or state level. So how are they going to fill the gap? Do other government so the gap in radius agnostic wanted was a yes, I do want. The garment fill the gap of her lots of Americans. They don't want more government in involved in anything. So if church declines and the government doesn't step up, then

What are we have? We ever society has fewer social safety nets not more, and I think that generally creates a worse outcome for all of us. I think we really need to think about the impact. The social impact at church has as much as the religious and theological impact diving. Are there any social or political advantages to a society becoming less religious? I note that a weird question to ask a pastor, but obviously this is a pretty grim picture that we ve painted of the direction that America is headed, Ed, have to be so in the book I robots declaration was basically inevitable. Like globalization was inevitable politician, I've been trying to hold back globalization for decades now, with tariffs in artificial way, support subsidies and yadda yadda yadda. What we get we got more offshore. We got more globalization, no matter how hard you vice polarization, never humming giveaways, you're sure says, and I haven't evangelistic events. You guys do you're still losing but that is a natural course of what

secular nations going to do? I don't see anything, that's going to be better with fewer churches in go because right now, I think of self selected churches who were heard by and by the way I do not want to minimize and all the fact that churches have her people, especially the algae t community racial minorities, especially women and conservative churches. They ve all been hurt by religion, but I think, generally speaking at the aggregate level religion does this thing called social capital? I Perry was talking about the idea that we care about our neighbours. We care by communities to summon the church helped us create. There is nothing in american society that replaces that in any meaningful way in social media. Actually, I think, makes it worse in a lot of ways. So we're really all these bridges that were built over the last fifty seventy five years to churches are now slowly eroding and are being these by nothing so we're gonna be on islands that are disconnected from each other and it's so much easier to be tribal? If you dont know your neighbor, if you dont interact

Them on a Sunday to Sunday basis, you don't see them as someone You see the sum a different than you. That's a good picture for the future of American. Unfortunately, I do not see any social organisation. Stepping in two gonna feel that gap. I do think some people who leave churches- I've read I've talked to that. We're not bids for them because they, were blacker, female or gay, or they didn t in some other way? They have found other things pod, gas, other roofs yoga some presumable church has not worse. I think we're be very wasn't about than it is worked in turn by committees is not we're for every black person. It is network lots of white. Liberals is now worth illogical. Do so. I think that is important to say that the first and the second part is in terms of policy pigs. It seems to me, even though twenty twenty was very close election and twenty hissing was well that a culture in which there is less religiosity is generally going too

they were the Democratic Party for growing, less religious and the Republican Party is going to hold onto religious tenor. It would seem to me that Declaration is going to help the Democratic Party or release forced the Republican Party to be more left in order to win. It seems to me this is an advantage in the Democratic Party, and so that's kind of the partners over the societal part of it. Like I was gonna was that

I think that there are some good elements to secularisation for people who church did not work for ain't. The question is like when we look at the poles, it suggests there's a declining trust in media, in government, in the police, in churches and so on, and how do we rebuild trust in some kinds of institutions and therefore trust in each other? I think is maybe not a question of the five hundred and thirty. Eight podcast was still like an important question about how we can a rebuild trust, and it seems to me that, if maybe churches have lost trust, many people, we got to think about what institutions and what people we can build. Trust in what

size but to party system is the democratic to figure out a key black protestants happy, but also aid. This republic, is it a figure out? The christian National is happy, but also, maybe so moderate or even slightly rider sinner nuns. I mean these are tough things we have to do going forward, but the nuns or the battlefield going forward through the growing demographic they're, not locked into one party or another, and both parties have a good opportunity to reach out to larger and larger shares them ass. They grow alright. Well, thank you. So much rain and Perry for joining me today. This has been a really interesting and informative conversation. They still thinks Galen. My name is Galen droop. Tony child is in the virtual control room Clare. Budgetary Curtis is on audio editing. You can get in touch my emailing us at podcast that five thirty eight dot com. You can also course treated us with any questions or comments. If your fan of the show me

was a rating or review in the Apple podcast store or tells him on about us thanks for listening and will cease