The thing that is different today from before is that now, instead of the situation I had where I was encouraged to talk about issues in the country so that we could grapple with race in America, there is eight feet of being fired, a being demonized being ostracised completely diligence. eyes in your teaching profession and potentially being sued in civil court, hello and welcome to the five thirty eight politics by gas, I'm game, Andrew and Freedom was a view watching this podcast. Yes, we are finally back in our studio. Don't worry if you my apartment, we'll stay be back there often enough. Alright, the podcast today since January twenty twenty one eleven states have passed some voting, as anti critical raised theory law and close to two, hundred Bell was had been introduced in forty states. Also last fall

Virginia Governor, Glenn, young uns, win was credited in part with a parental backlash that included concerns about see our teeth what are these laws actually doing? What is the impact both in the clouds, storm add and at the ballot Box of Laws regulate how teachers can talk about race and racism, and why has this become such a focus of our politics? That's what today's epoch is all about, and he would meet to discuss is director of the Fellows Programme at the Brennan Centre for justice. Fyodor Johnson he's a writer at the work and recently wrote on this topic for five. Thirty eight welcomes the blackest venture. Have me get to be here so what does the landscape across the country? Look like right now I mentioned that eleven states have passed some kind of aunt. I see Archie LAW but of the nearly two hundred bills, otherwise our many of them likely to also become law? So no,

There is then, as you mentioned, something like a hundred and eighty five laws introduced in forty states across the country since January of twenty twenty one. The last time we looked at this, which is just over a week or so ago about eighty plus of those bills were pending in the states, now and of those eighty twelve have passed one of the ones that passwords in Arizona that was sort of repealed by the Arizona Supreme so we've got eleven standing laws and just over eighty pending was now only the ones that are of particular to Kate who twelve. So there are additional laws that are specific to state agencies around the training that our anti seniority and around colleges that forbid the teaching of antiquity was there, but the ones we looked at in Katyn, twelve, where we are so, we see there's a lot when we look at state level legislation that any random legislator can introduce a bill and oftentimes

pretty wild things get introduced in state legislatures, but of the provisions that have actually been signed into law? What kinds I rules are there about what can be taught in case or twelve schools. These are almost all both the ones that have passed and the ones that are appending mostly just message bills: everything. One of these all one hundred and eighty plus of the ones introduced since January of two thousand and twenty one were introduced by republican state legislatures, legislate tours or committees in Republican, controlled, state, legislatures and so there's really been. No hiding the fact that this is what these bills are trying to do, because once you read the text of these bills, you find that they are not actually outlawing things that are either part of crt or that are things teachers were teaching in the first place, the vast majority of them. lowing ideas like teaching that one race is inherently superior or inferior to another, or that the forbidden from teaching

that students should feel ashamed or guilty because of something that happened hundreds of years ago. So there such bills number one and to the things that their forbidden are basically things that the fourteenth amendment, equal protection clause, says our constitutional anyway. The things that they are not forbidding like critical race theory are probably not forbidden explicitly, certainly in the ones that have passed because doing so might run into some first kinds of questions. This is really a way of signalling to a particular part of the electorate where these legislator stand on this manufacture, controversial issue of workers theory. You're saying that, essentially, as these laws are written that have passed, it won't have any impact on what is or can be taught in the classroom for so I think the one exception there is Texas is law, Texas, those outlaw things like the sixteen nineteen project. It does so you must teach certain civic scales or civic education tenants, but aside from them

with the others base Italy are derived from a executive war that present Trump signed it if the timbre of twenty twenty around these things that he called divisive concepts or racial stereotyping and scapegoating, which are not things that are part of any of the school districts, we looked at part of their curriculum, which is again teaching things like one group is inherently superior to another group? So I think at this point people broadly know that critical raised there it is an academic idea that raises I'm permeates american society in such a way that even raise blind laws and institutions are still racially prejudiced. Is there more to it than that and do these bills expand A financial beyond that, so I think the bumper sticker version of Sea Archie is what you described that if we were to objective we look at our systems, are institutions our laws, and as that they are constructed in such a way that produces racial inequality and will continue to,

So without some sort of proactive intervention. What these laws? outlawing. It's not that these laws are outlawing is a distorted version of critical race theory that, frankly, has been brought in to the point where it gives lots of disgrace. And two administrators and principles to determine what can be taught the thing that administrators and principles are looking to avoid our students who are made to feel guilty or some sort of anguish based on what is tat so What these laws are. Outlying is basically honest. Conversations about racism, maybe not exposed we in the text of the letter, but implicitly in a chilling effect that they're going to have on teachers in the text it says things again, like you can't teach that one group is inherently superior or inferior to another. They call that critical race theory, but that is not one of the tenets of framework this is sort of the state of play now and frankly again, because their such message bills, you could probably teach critical race theory and

still be within the letter of the law, given how some of these are in So you're saying that applying the text it doesn't seem like much in the classroom would change, but that you think teachers are still feeling hesitant about how they're talking about race and raises I'm because of the existence of the laws. Yes, one hundred percent, but there is a principle in coffee bill, Texas, who was recently fired and he was fired because in the weeks After George Floyd was killed in twenty twenty. He said that systemic racism was partly responsible for it and then in September of two thousand and twenty one apparent found those remarks and said that that principle was teaching critical race theory. This is what's happening and cases like listen, Tenancy Missouri are similar and how these laws are being apply in Texas. Are they like actually citing this law? I mean you know: local school districts have some attitude in terms of how they can fire people and why they ve our people and so on, but

actually referring to these laws in punishing teachers or as a you're out The bounds of what we want taught in our squaws. You gotta go so Texas? I dont think they refer to the law, because I dont know that the law in Texas was in place at the time of the parent. using this issue last September Missouri, where a teacher was fired in Missouri, doesn't actually have a law on the books. But this bored met after a teacher assigned a racial privilege, work she as part of a class reading that she was doing and the School board private and fired her because of a student reporting that they felt anguish once they were reading this, this work sheet and press for a longer discussion on a foolproof novel in some cases, like the one I just cited, a law wasn't even on the books to be site. Only twenty four bills introduced in Missouri were the ether there, but none on the books are signed by the governor into law

I myself, so I don't like the couple things going out. There are these messaging bells, some of which are passing and state legislatures, but there is also at the local level, debate and concerns about how raising racism is being taught in the classroom. I think the response on the left has largely been that critical race theory is in fact being taught in ass rooms and some of the examples that you say in your writing, like the ones that you're just brought up or of teachers being punished for talking about american society being racist, even when it isn't necessarily explicitly racist and that sort of tracks with some of the evolving ways that Democrats have talked about raised over the past eight years or so brag, since thousand fifteen and the black lives movement. So how is being talked about in public schools today, and has changed in recent years

some of the laws actually encourage teachers to talk about Jim Crow, encourage teachers to talk about slavery. I don't know any instance where conversations about this kind of history, certain at the high school, What had been scrubbed from history, curriculum because of these laws or in anticipation of these laws or sort the culture the conversation around them, so race is being talked about. Question is the assigned. It's that teachers give to students and preparation for talks about racism, and I think, the opinions of the tea just as they share their views on the material, so one too you're in Tennessee shared a coats. Icy, call the first white present, I think was the title of it. Writing about Donald Trump. Victory was fired person let that say and there s a talks explicitly about structural systemic racism, which is a tenant of critical race theory. But the teacher the teaching critical race theory, the teacher was having a conversation about the ways

fitted into the last presidential election to the eyes of one writer Arguably this is what you would wipe your teachers to due to present articles for a critique for discussion to sort of engage the ideas there. What is but in fact is that teachers are less willing based on the reporting. That's come out to talk about these things at all. Because if they dare venture into opinion or if they dare presents some set of readings, that students don't agree with or may feel anguish as a result of that to cost the teacher their job or their certification to teach elsewhere, never mind that it costs the school financial penalties. So this is sort of what's Goin on My question here, as are the anti see our t, move men laws. Whatever reacting to something actually changing in schools. There is a long Washington Post article about the teacher from Tennessee who mentioned who was fired and he was reverend

at various times? Where have you talked about political issues and his current events, class oftentimes pertaining to raise and assembly last straw was showing a video of a poet Kylie, Janae Lazy, who talks about white privilege swears alive and Some controversial things like that the Bush responds to Katrina was eugenics. That is. Different way of talking about rays and racism than I think, maybe a lot. People are even in school a decade ago or from people who are still in school today case to travel school today are used. Hearing people talk about race, especially the part about eugenics? It's pretty controversial, has been changed in schools about how raisin racism are discussed or not? Look in nineteen Me too, I was a junior in high school and one of the assignments I had in my sociology class was to bring a song all the students had this assignment, to bring a song that we could play in front of the class and explain why that song was important to our culture and society. This was right,

after before, police indebted beaten, Radner king were acquitted of committing a crime, and so I brought a song from Doktor James, the chronic album talking about how angry folks and allay were about these police officers being acquitted an essentially being discriminated against by law enforcement for the entirety. of their lives. So if I played that song today would that be Maurice theory. Would that be more egregious than someone playing spoken. Word, poetry clipping class, what my sociology teacher and ninety nine to be fired today for being a proponent of cooperation, when we were having a real conversation about what was happening. The country around us has I say changed. It has changed as much as race. Relations have changed in our country, but what has changed alongside that of which is to say the thing that is different today from before is that now

instead of it the situation I had where I was encouraged to talk about issues in the country so that we could grapple with race in America, there is eight feet: of being fired of being demonized being ostracised completely we legitimize in your teaching, profession and potentially being sued in civil court for talking about the world around US critical raised their didn't, get more prominent schools over the last thirty years? What has happened is Americans have become more sensitive to how racist talked about at all in our school system, and I think that was absolutely exacerbated by some of the executive orders and and language coming out of the last, menstruation I sort of walking back on my education as well, I had teachers are relatively open about their political views, even both liberal and conserving In one case, my: U history, teacher in high school went on to become the republican mare of the town. While he was still teaching and he was deployed to Iraq as a marine. part of the year that actually had him as a teacher. He spoke posit,

we about the war and about other republican positions, and so I think that for many people, their teachers, opinions become part of the curriculum. for better or for worse, looking at polling parents? Don't want that? I think the majority of american parents say that they want more control themselves over the curriculum, but why I has this become such an issue. Now in this moment, and why It becomes such an issue for the right, but you know really. Here from the last like I wouldn't want Republicans teaching our opinions in the classroom yet so I think this is part of the to war were seeing that's being fed by those on the right out of political expediency and to the extent that can collapse more things into this culture war they feel like it gives them an advantage in electoral context We look back at Virginia, gubernatorial lecture were going Junction one. The idea was that, because he told the state that he was going to, turn control of schools to parents.

To the local level and get critical race theory and others covered you, no conspiracy, stuff out of schools. That's why, photos of Virginia rewarded him, and so the lesson- and we heard lots of republican strategist. Talk about this after young kids victory was that we to run a nationwide junction campaign, and part of that is sort of fear, monger over the left or the liberals that are looking to change or children or industrial. Your children in some of the language shows up in these bills abound in doctrine nation that that is no longer acceptable, and so there's an electoral pay off for we're talking about making. It seem as though critical race theory has now infiltrated every aspect of your child's life. Not only your child's life in K through twelve, but also ouch and only their lives there, but also the agencies that are insisting on tv, I train these bills cover the entire again it from K through maturer profession.

So that is why I think we're hearing more discussion about this now, because it is proven to be a lottery of advantageous for one side and the other side is less. We to engage in extreme and about could have a race theory teaching children, Tate America, I think there is some debate over the electoral impact you look at, and you see people saying that are concerned about critical recently, for example in the Virginia gubernatorial election, but there's so a question. A chicken eggs question which has are these people reliably republican voters who are hearing this message from whatever right wing media they may consume and parenting it back to pollsters, saying like I'm really concerned about security. But if you look at the demographics disproportionately, these people are parents of case which, while children I dont know if the jury is still out or not on the electoral impact of all of this do have data that helps inform how you're thinking about this

Virginia again, you're, absolutely right that the rhetoric around Duncan victory was very c r t Laden as Virginia resident. I can tell you that most of it was around the way the state handled, covert and public schools and not the sphere. That's your tea was suddenly when it rapid. So a couple things one I think Republicans are learning the wrong lesson from the crt Bates and the videos of both parents going nuts that town halls thinking that if we just lean into this more the electorate, see the left is being too far gone and will see us as the ones returning local state controls. Let's do that, but what the for data shows again that to Virginia begun changes in something like two thirds of Virginian say they still want their children to be taught about racism and still want their children to be taught that regional inequality is no good. So, if you, to talk about regional inequality and racism in America? And you don't want to talk about laws and institutions in the structures that feed into it, which is what corporations theory talks about

Then what exactly? Are you supposed to be teaching your children historically or at what kind of conversations about race? Can you have something have said. Well, here's a list of things to talk about. You can teach Martin Luther king. I have a dream speech you can have suited Sri Frederick Douglass is what to the slave is the fourth of July. So don't avoid topics are racism, but as soon as a teacher begins to offer, and yet, as soon as a teacher offers. A reading, that's adjacent to Frederick Douglass is writing from a hundred plus years ago, to something more current, then they run the of being lumped end with this e r t sore fervour going on and that that could be personally unprofessional. Costly. You I mean I was looking at some nation wide pullings or according to a Umass, Amherst pole. Seventy five percent of american adults say that school should teach at least some amount about racial equality was thirty four percent, say a lot. Twenty eight percent say some thirteen percent say a little and then, of course, a quarter say none at all, given that

There is broad openness to talking about these issues in schools where, exactly. Does the controversy lie? Is it in talking about the country as fundamentally racist beyond these specific events, we'll just have it wrong and like parents are all open to these conversations. What is the true controversy here? I think parents are ok with their students. Talking in learning about recent racism, in the abstract. But as soon as you pure that back a little bit and start asking. What exactly should students be learnt? There is less agreement, I think John Really speaking, parents want their children to know that America wasn't always perfect and that this is a story of progress that the nation has progressed. And so, if we can talk about that, the Ark that's bending tour

justice. We could talk about race in that way. But if we talk about the ugliness of the history absent the Ark context, then I think there's a rejection of it in some places. The sum parent for call: that's your tea and others. What sort of reject talking about these things out said the mythology at all. So that's where it is. I think we agree that it's good to talk about these things generally, but specifically there less agreement- and this is the problem that the nation is presently wrestling with. Among others- is that we knowledge, the role that race plays in our country. We have zero consensus, zero agreement on how we should talk about raise what should be done about the inequality that exist and to the extent we should talk about, blame and and remediation and etc, and so, if you, agree. Something should be discussed and disagree on. All of the things that should be said about it and the power should be taught

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Plus for a limited time, get three hundred dollars off and free shipping. This is outers best offer anywhere only available to podcast listeners and only for a limited time get three hundred dollars off and free shipping at live outer. O. U t e r dot com slashed five. Three eight live outer dot com slashed five, three, eight, and conditions apply. This is interesting because I think that this debate, that you're talking about, isn't only happening in schools I think it's also happening even within the Democratic Party itself, so I anyone who watched in particular the twenty twenty democratic presidential primary saw the Democrats have become much more comfortable talking about american society as racist and openly critiquing waste. Disparities and I think, even while I was happening and in the aftermath of the twenty twenty election there

people within the Democratic Party resigning. Your guy Democrats, you shouldn't do that. The american electorate doesn't want to hear that you should talk about race that way there are a couple waste reversal, and what is more or less daiquiri. You might believe you should talk about something in a certain way, regardless of whether its elect orally Ivan just year when it comes to the electoral peace. Do you think those critics, people like David Shore, notably who say, Democrats the way you talk about the start is turning off the majority of an american public. Do you think that our right? So I think that the majority of the american public are not far left Democrats, and so, if one party talks about an issue any issue in the language of a part of the country that is in our maybe a fifth to a little bit more than that, of course, they're going to turn people in the process and, as you noted, democratic party much more ideologically diverse, certainly in practice, then the Republican Party is in

remind the racial and ethnic diversity etc, and look if we look at the defined the police controversy within the Democratic Party, I think we'd get a sense of this. There are those more pragmatic centrist Democrats are to include folks, like folks in the CBC, Like Cliburn, who said defined the police as a bad slogan, because it's The wrong message about, and then within the Democratic Party, but further to the left. There are those that basically it ground their argument for defined in critical race theory that this is an institution that is structurally incapable of producing just outcomes and therefore needs to be completely reevaluate. So both have viewed as both are within the same party, and I think that there is an audience for both of those youths. The question is, if you're trying to build and electable coalition of folks in Congress and or when the White House. Then you have to speak in a language that I will bring more people into the tent

if you're using language that is more progressive than most of the nation, then most likely that you're going to be unsuccessful in building the kind of broad coalition that you suspect,

so I don't want to say this is, though, like these are folks that just using electoral strategies to try to take the temperature of the country, so they can win elections. There are people who earnestly believe that law enforcement needs to be completely rethought to be just. There are those who earnestly believe that a more pragmatic approach to police reform is the better and more tangible way of creating an incrementally better version of our country in the near term, to the extent both of those sides lean into these arguments and how they feed into the critical race theory piece or how the Democratic Party reconciling a little bit of it. I did it the crisis that is having all valid concerns, but doesn't detract from the fact that most Americans are not where some part of these politicians are. I was in preparation for this conversation. Looking up some polling and pulled up an article that my former colleague Perry, Bacon, Jr wrote looking at

some positions that have a bit more purchase on the left and sort of how that point compares with what Americans think overall and the pulling shows that you know. Thirty. Four percent of Americans say that white people benefit a great deal from advantages that black people don't have me. I think that's an idea that is practically universal on the left. thirty three percent of american support reparations twenty five percent support, reducing the police force. Again, these were ideas that were pretty alive during that when you twenty election. How do you see the Democratic Party reacting to all of this? I do think that they are turning away from these issues. Are they listening to folks like David Shore or other people who want to people, about them are still talking about them and water run on them. So I think it depends

who, in the party you ass, I think there is a cohort within the Democratic Party that responded deleted. this messaging as a way of trying to hold on office and others who were trap more to the centre as well to do the same. So there is no cohesive, democratic message on this, except that the Republican Party use of critical race theory is an explicit attempt to divide Americans to sort of me this up very black and white binary issue and force people to choose size instead of considering issues or policies on the merits issue by issue. So let's not talk about defined. Let's not talk about tax rates, let's not talk about energy. Let's talk about how the less are trying to indoctrinate your children with critical race theory. So I think what we're going to see on the democratic side is democratic politicians into who they are. If we look at the in Ohio, where Chantelle Brown, the incumbent just defeated, mean a turner in a primary means.

Gunnar is more to the left and she is more of a part of the covert that talk more explicitly about Europe Racism and the need to complete the reform institutions, Chantelle Brown is more to the centre and she won handily. So the idea that there is a single message for every congressional district that the Democratic Party has to repeat when it comes to rates and when it comes to inequality is just not representative of its kind constituents yeah. This brings up a question that I did want to ask, which is you mentioned that the democratic Leader portion of democratic lawmakers politicians are sort of talk about in a way that out of step with voters? Is that out of step a crime, as racial lines? Or are we talking about white voters in particular here? So. the pulling it I've seen from Pew another place This have shown that White Democrats are more liberal than black voters and had been even more so over the last two decades, so yeah,

there is a racial component to this now, but black voters tend to be more pragmatic than other voters and a democratic party as group, and so if the idea to win black voters is to pitch the most progressive message on every issue possible to improve your chances. That is a bad idea because they had actually what black voters respond to. However, if you neglect to talk about progressive ideas, the you risk losing the increasing them of white voters who identify as liberal, and so if you are a candidate for office and especially if you're a new candidate in Dublin Especially if you're a candidate of color, particularly black, then you have to be able to Navid a primary system we're in most states it's going to be white progressive for determining the primary wetter compete in a general election where you're going to have to talk to the centre

in order to bring along oath black pragmatists, but also white voters, who may be more centrist, less liberal, maybe even a little conservative but dont like the current version of the Republican Party, in order when the seat again, there is no one message either for the party and certainly not for the constituencies within the party, so without a doubt, there's a racial component to their spoke on the ideological spectrum and then also issue dependent speaking of the Republican Party. I think the. Democratic Party has been a good amount of time debating, with itself about how to talk about ways how to telegraph emigration. Things like that, the debate isn't perhaps as live or as obvious and the Republican Party, but I think the question it's probably just as relevant, does the way that Republicans talk about race, hurt them in elections you know in particular we're talking about critical race theory right now. I think the generals

has been. Oh, you now critical history were hop Republicans when then. Maybe it is framed in a certain way that will help them, but also notable that former president Tromp was the least popular president since the beginning of I'm pulling during a time when the economy did really well and notably a majority of Americans, thought that Donald Trump was racist. While he was in office. I have asked the question as well, How does the way the republican talk about waste shape their electoral outcomes? Republican party has the advantage of being an incredibly homogenous, certainly alone, race and ethnic lines, and so they are able to have more of a singular message, certainly more so the Democrats are so. The question is: what is that message and what we have taken from the Trump twenty fifteen sixteen campaign- and presidency and the twenty twenty campaign is that it's ok to say very explicitly how much you dislike.

Or disfavor certain races or certain immigrants from certain nations over others and there's no penalty to pay for it and the electoral strategy. Here I is to mobilise white voters by creating fear and anxiety or anger within that base, and it has been proven numerous. political science, sociological studies show that when you prime audiences, with the idea that the country's demography is changing that, while the Americans will soon be in a minority that social safety net spending is because of these lazy black folks in these undocumented immigrants that support. for more conservative positions on a range of social issues increases for those that will vote Republican. So absolutely there is a strategy here and the strategy has been to create a kind of anxiety. fear or anger among its base by law, urging rhetoric around

raised that intentionally divisive and were seen ramifications of that positive Republicans, but negative for the country, So you think it's all upside for the more explicit ways that Donald Trump talked about race in America. This is probably a debate you can use different data sets to discuss but do you think that a more tempered mom, he did version of the Republican Party would do better or worse and like a general election, so I think they would do better if it were. Genuine and that they were making appeals beyond basing their electorate that they seem infatuated with pleasing now, in other words, trying to exploit people fears and anxieties over changing demographics in our country can be winning formula when the better? It remained small when there is low so now and voters

inside all the others of Socio tropic conditions that normally determine how elections come out, but I think a stronger, more resilient version of the Republican Party would be one that actually tries to expand its and it changes its messaging on race so that its not trust, on the usually interested, but especially pissed off voter in Appalachian, who decides the turnout for an election or to who after seeing his or her policy needs not being met, decides that all politicians are ultimately corrupt, as they originally thought an opt out of elections and see granted them the Republicans have linked to the strategy, and what did they get return? Trump loses the White House, Republicans lose Congress and they look at the Supreme Court and say, but ultimately, we we're in a place now, will neither so and certainly never mind. Democrats, Republicans dont know what the winning strategy for the next decade or to its because of the shadow of Trump over the party still and the idea

that is not for a historic turn out in the election trump would still be president. They or not of changing their messaging they're thinking of leaning more into the culture war that led to Trump in the first place, as the first presidency in hopes that it will do the same, coupled with dissatisfaction with Biden in two thousand twenty four, and certainly in a few months here in the midterms. I think we'll get a taste of what the Republican Party thinks are it's strengths as we Head into the general election, these midterms there's like an obvious issue that you can really harp on which, as inflation, that's good! table issue. It's a bread and butter issue, something that impacts every single American and will be able to get ads and speeches, and things like that and compare how The conversation is about that versus something like critical race theory, which is produced

more news appeal, although obviously, if you pull critical race theory, it's not popular if you pull more specifically, as we mentioned here, Americans do want teachers to talk about race and racism, in school right, I guess what are you gonna be watching to sort of understand the two parties and how they talk about race as an issue going forward as we get into the midterms, look, I think the number one thing that I'm looking for and if this we follows on from our previous conversation here about republicans- is the number of black republicans that come into Congress after these, terms and I'm looking at their number specifically one because it so What do I think now there's only three two of them are freshmen in the house and then, of course, there's TIM Scott in the Senate, but I think there could be as many as five or six black republicans when the reelection or election, this fall, which would the largest class of black republicans. Since reconstruction,

and yet in over a century. If that happens, then the party can both claim. That's your tea is bad for schools, they can do all the or stuff around abortion same sex, marriage, raise credit, grace their etc. and say how can we possibly be racist when we just brought in the largest class of black republicans? How can we, possibly been racist, weave demonstrably in Greece, the number of hispanic Americans are supporting Republican Party based on the twenty twenty election to bear to two years before and so there's almost this kind of protection against the claims, it's for you, the culture war, because the tent appears to be diversified, and I think if that makes a things happens, then we're going to get a worse version of the Republican Party, especially when it comes to things like voting rights. when it comes to abortion laws in the states or maybe a national ban when it comes to power

given to state legislatures to overturn poppy, will all of these kind of anti democratic impulses. We're seeing the mid outcome of these mid terms on the race nationality question could provide cover for some of these other impulses. I think that is the sorry line for these mid term, certainly for me, as a potential rates will. Why do you think that is yours described it as a sort of cover, but to what do you ascribe the republican coalition, including increasing numbers of hispanic Americans, and knew no more black Republicans cutting elected one who spent Americans are not a group of people in the same way that African Americans are. So if you say that Democratic Party is becoming socialist and their marches, If the communists, then there is a not insignificant number of hispanic Americans that came here explicitly to avoid that kind of government to escape that kind of government. So that has an appeal and if, on the question of being pro lifers pro choice, there is a contingent of pro life hispanic.

members maybe be based on the Catholicism or again other raised or whatever of cultural. That Republicans can claim that the Democratic Party can't so there is that that has you know to do with like the immigration talk. That strategy might suggest what and has many voters off. But when you talk about the style of governance or cultural issues like abortion, the immigration policy in America that hasn't been good for decades may pale on comparison for black voters that the political Research shows that, when movements capture parties that, if you're person that normally marginalized in that part. But u turn out to be an extreme inherent to the movement that you have failed to the moon it can overcome whatever negative impacts may result from your group. I did it and so the idea

know that there have been more black Republicans in Congress, since the tea party came on the scene than than the hundred years prior is not because the Republican Party has found it's message into black voters, and it's not that the party's platform has changed so substantially that now there are more black candidates interested. It is that if you aspire to political, this and you are a black hated it. If you go to the democratic office and say I want to run, they told me to get my if you go to the Republican, office and say I want to run, and you show how close you are to the tea party or to Trumpism. They can't wait to put a banner with your face on it and proclaims that the changing face of the party and look how inclusive we are so that to me, is the explanation of why we're seeing these visible shifts in terms of like race and ethnicity, on the republican Party. That has nothing to do with it,

changing message, improved rhetoric or like earnest, appeals to broaden the tent, but rather exploiting whether strong and finding that the democratic parties in these particular instances is unable to counter any strong I'm sure we're going to be tracking here at five. Thirty: eight, how the various candidates perform based on all kinds of things, endorsements, race, etc. So maybe we'll get a chance to talk again, but let's leave it there. Thank you so much for joining me today today, thanks for having appreciated Theodore Johnson is director of the fellows program at the Brennan Center for Justice and a writer at the bulwark. My name is Galen droop Tony child is in the I was gonna, say, virtual, controlling were actually in the control room. Tonight, the in the control Room, Claire Vinegary Curtis, intern Emily Vernadsky on audio editing, Chadwick Matlin is our editorial director can get in touch by emailing us at podcast at five thirty, eight dot com. You can also, of course, tweeted us with the

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