I did Chinese in college, and I don't remember anything I shall remember how to say. I'm an american students take means taking into my arms round eyes right, I'm not gonna send over our decent english speakers here. Let's do this do so in English, hello, and welcome to the five three politics thirty cast. My name is Jody Abigail. President Trump is continuing to face possible legal trouble over campaign finance violations. Meanwhile, the White House in the middle of another staffing, shake up business like the kind of intro you could do almost every week that last year's last week court filings in the southern district of New York, state of the Trump coordinated, with and directed Michael Cohen, to break campaign finance law and then on Saturday, Trump announced that his chief of staff, John Kelly, is departing and Avery has yet to be named. There are lots of rumours floating around so here to discuss all of that

whether and how they may be related, and some other stories of weak are senior politics radically. Malone hooker he Jerry Managing editor make a Cohen hello MIKE and joining us on Skype is see your writer, Perry, Bacon, junior hello, Perry, good of you, it is at a neat, is out today to have a river real time up there, where made as his tweeting his trip, I think he's in Japan as someone, parry, where you I've been looking back into the in addition to those two big pieces of Trump NEWS later in the shower going to update you on that possible election fraud story in North Carolina. But let's begin with the Trump mother. Investigation news. Last week there was that's interesting document, four transformer national security adviser, Michael Flynn, his former lawyer, Michael Cohen, and his former campaign Chairman Paul man of Fort Sumter, Japan and just talk about what were cut. I'm sure I mean, I guess the official news- and it is important, is that the summit New York, the prosecutor's office, the Deity Office in New York,

own words said basely said Trump is, was part of and encourage. Michael Cohen to pay money to women. Tromp slept with high those affairs during the campaign, in other words, let her had already said in public. The trunk was part of a cover up, but now D J itself has said that as well, this significant legally. I don't think he was like shit news we all, because we baseless have already knew tromp was involved in the past to these remember to glue stormy diagnosis poor. So I think this is one of the biggest headlines last week. You know we had that man a fourth document those are, but it was heavily with DEC so. I didn't leave last a whole lot of new knowledge about the about Trump and Russia. Did. I didn't already have last week, but I think it does tell you the story will keep going and it's in his getting worse for Trump, I just to clarify that the Russian

This was something that mother had kicked the sullen district of New York. This particular campaign finance thing, and so that was came out so I have a direct its connected, but it's not a direct result or sort of integration of the Mullah investigation, yet separate from the mother investigation. I grew with Perry that I didn't think anything was earth shattering there. You know if you believed, Michael Cohen, that trumped quoting quote directed this can be financed. Violet I wasn't knew, but you know what we are saying, that federal prosecutors wouldn't alleged this. Only on guy, whereas you might not believe Michael Career good reasons to tell the citizens that it is perhaps not the most credulous person but it, but if they are putting us in a document from what you know, everyone is saying, then that means they have corroborating evidence elsewhere, besides Michael Cohen, but he is like the oppressed who is so these things in his corroborated elsewhere. So then went out what I sort of came away. Thinking was you

illegal manipulation of the election, the campaign finance Violations- allegedly, I think you can kind of add, as the kind of third avenue of legal jeopardy for tromp, along with collusion with Russia. An obstruction of justice right, now you have these kind of three different problem areas for him. Now. The question that, and his Ike. How do you rank them in terms of evidence for an and how severe they? How much of a problem could then you ve got any entity that top down at saying. Well, this is you know. Technically, the president is party to a cry. And its unimpeachable offence, so Josie you and that will see in the winter folks like that of the kind of seems to be a lot about the Democrats. Posturing at this point as regards this particular right case, but it also discuss violation of a sort of concrete law come on

as opposed to like we ve talked to her collusion, is a slippery thing in this sort of, like the mother cases, a lot about kind of proving that sort of body of evidence, whereas this is like a very specific law, broken in very specific way, the carriage, very specifically that people haven't. Although this is I mean this is when we bring back the ghost down Edwards and his hair and his affair, which was Edwards trial was about campaign finance violations right, a very similar payment, hush money to a mystery and, as we all know, we may, but we don't know, nothin John Edwards, wasn't wasn't convicted and there was a you know: there's a mistrial on several counts. So it's a hard, I think the Trump legal team when they come back there they have. You know they come back with these lines where it's like well, he's president. He can't be criminally. We know he's Kebby prosecutor vice president, and that is true that the video J has, I guess, guidelines right. It's not law, but it's

I'd lines that they wouldn't indict him in office and then the other part is that it's pretty hard to or its they haven't been that many cases where people have have actually been convicted of these particular campaign financed the eggs which, by the way, supper tangent people dont really take campaign finance violations very seriously in this country, including how tightly you know, people run their super packs and legs the ethics running money in politics in America is pretty bad all around without. Why was it surprised parameters. You think I was a little surprised at a few Democrats did start mentioning the eye word because in general you know impeachment as a political process, and I dont think people take campaign financed laws all that seriously the certainly not enforced all that seriously. So, while there's like clearly they day public,

this thing to have a good case against Trump. On this you know I have a hard time, imagining successful impeachment proceedings based on this alone riper. So, yes, in a jury needler, whose they're gonna be the chairman of the house to assure dimity- that's where, he's your start. He was Sunday Shows- and he said these things- a promise has been the kick him at last week, where teachable offences in his view, which surprised, because up to now Nan learn Pelosi been had been so those trying to like slow the impeachment being down allowed, they ve been very much like. We only forward, if Republicans or for appeasement do- and we know that normal, because our heavy before their size rather than members. Cynic is like the rude MIKE. I'm not sure campaign financed voices themselves are naturally at that threshold. But, more importantly, I think, unless the Democrats are

you're going to move forward on this, I don't think they wanna likes it, a team that idea so just to clarify the meaning because never actual figures, sir walking into line here, he said the union that they will that these violations would be impossible offences. But then he went on to say whether they are important enough to justify. Impeachment is a different question, so I guess maybe he still trying to thread that needle yeah. It's a weird, quite well sort of trade had he got away, as you may know that neglect by open society. So there's the eye word right, but this also the jail, Adam chiffon faced the nation said there is very real prospect that, on the day, Donald Trump leaves Office, the just department may indict him. He may be the first President some time to face real prospect of jail time. That was pretty surprise into here from a representative in it for no one said before right, I was shocked I have a hard you imagining on day, one of the job

Biden, Elizabeth Warren Bernie Sanders embayed early, unwanted millinery, how trump leads animals? I really don't think my pencil, but I don't think a dim light. The other reason is banned. You know you don't you know we don't prosecutor no enemies in the matter, what they ve done. Essentially so I would be I done that dragging link is I have a hard time imagining that happening in real life, but ass. It was not a dumb with his very smart person, but I do have a hard time seeing the Knesset Ministration, particularly even, if run a democratic actually doing. I guess I'm not surprised, because I see it as a very political quote right in an environment when this stuff is just come out in the news and when people are few particularly in minutes to its in some ways to his advantage to, let's see more serious, exactly at, but I guess it, those kind of get back to, though, that it feels like at this moment so far What are the mullah conversation has been about, did trump behave in a way that would lead

and the house to impeach him because of his heart of compartment during the election and collusion. Have you aren't the finance Russia, and then there is another thing which is the very clear violation, of course is clearly saying you know you can decide whether the prosecutor, not accordingly, but it does feel like another two fronts, is your sense that the southern district investigations camping finance stuff. Will it eventually get brought back into the Mullah investigation and meanwhile, all this kind of end up being one big, unified. Here's. What we found about what how trump it himself or is it going to continue to run on multiple tracks me in fracture, even more biggest? maybe multiple tracks. I think mothers been try to stay pretty much on things around rush like even the indictment of metaphor. The been around manifestly shows with russian and ukrainian officials, I do think there is essentially more and the campaign finance wherever the New York is mostly the things that Ngos are

an angle. I mean, I don't think they would murder their mothers trying to stay on his mandate. Pretty narrowly Mahler seems the we ve met mothers voices whole time, but he seems try to be avoiding being the next skins doc pretty accepted explicitly is, I think, but try to avoid if he, if you get the Stormy Daniels down you're getting into those Monica Wednesday's on. I beg you to try to find a solution up here a little bit, but let's talk about the Mahler investigation itself. First off we haven't done this in a while, but The worth checking and on her where it stands in terms of public opinion, when do. We feel like the longer goes on the more the public become skeptical hours he stole. Where do we stand now? There has been they haven't were skeptical sceptical, they also have it. It's numbers numbers have been fairly studies, so, like two thirds think mother should be allowed to finish his investigation. That's according to a recent Maris, Paul, three and four people think the report should be made public and a majority think it's fair investigation votes only about a third who think it's

so those are pretty good. Numbers from dollar is actually how Maris reactionary changes as well as the creation of they asked the question we are when we saw these numbers outbreak really they. Ass. If I were in the question is which of the fund Statements comes closer to your opinion about rather modest investigation. It is fair it is a witch hunt. The two sides of the coin. Is it? Ok, you support most. I guess I'd be here to see if this movement after this recent flurry of activity on these friends, but does he pretty good numbers from Mahler and I think, as per said he's conscious that whether here Sir, not he's operating in a political context and but probably act accordingly, which means sort of narrowly staying on mission Parrys your sense that come January when Democrats take over the house how high on their part, pretty less, is convening

but your investigations using their power to kind of backup Mahler just continue to product trump in other ways, extremely high. Naturally, there judiciary, shift, is on the house until it, the German, their yeah. Pretty much Its chairman has some particular part of their investigative there. Germany is gonna, be investigations around solely more like policy, or even told only like a more about like how to see you know what is the child's operation policy where they come from burning, allow them will be sort of Russia related. I think Amelia Road abusing its relevant, think about it. Some ways, Mauler probably Doesn'T- wants he's gas, interviewing lots of witnesses and getting in the way on some animals are seriously how they have their Howard nettle. You have a re, smart people, so I think they will probably on the other they are conscious of Mahler. What he's doing

whereas no, I think that what Mahler fines is more credible than with the Democrats in the in the house who, of course, hate tromp is going too far. It might be an arbitrary see house open his team handle subpoenas, and I can imagine, there's gonna- be a lot of back and forth before. There is any real testing we like, like the story, the time to say about you know, Jared Cushioning is Texas. With the saudi leader a lot and yet Jerry, commissioner, that they look really bad for your commissioner, unless you're not gonna capital, to talk about them. What is your sense of what comes next for the mother investigation? Was there anything in that heavily reacted document that last week that indicates it whether this is gonna go in a particular direction, with it's gonna wrap up any time soon, I'm in what's on the horizon, doesn't seem likely to wrap up any time in the near future, save this. How do you not? While there were people who were like, I think stupidly, you know spike

I think that maybe I was it was coming to an end. You know that if the even the fact that so much that man afford documentation was rejected is meaningful and suggest that Europe Allah resort of still developing lines of inquiry and following, I think we're just like it. Just as we are short of sitting down to record this Maria Bettina changed her plea. So this is the russian woman kind of accused of being, but like not very good Intel office Herbert? But she is she she so so something Our reading that as oh, what's going on there at Maria Bettina is, is the woman who who is accused of spying on behalf of I guess her contact

was a russian official named Alexander Torsion and she was a person to she's been retrain. The media's like the Red Headed siren, who you know, worked at the array and infiltrated sort of republican power structures, but yet you know it's funny. I think of the mother. Investigation is almost like a potted plant that sits in the background of the window, Sill and Washington and occasionally fly hours, sometimes fragrantly, sometimes not what is really bad spelling plant we can give. It is like a Gardena something there are women Christmas cactus, depending on your taste in plants. There are reports that not writing corpse plant. That's what I'm thinking now that they have wrapped up with co in there looking at trumps, family businesses, more unity at the Trump organization which

probably find something there right has been like. I remember that press conference when they live out all the documents. More third blinkered confirm here that that was pretty much what people there was suspected Oakum such less thought I had was it you think at the last year. What are you doing whatever trump his troubles not fired mauler, but the nuts I suggest trumpets and a pretty good job of making the case to Republicans, that this investigation is a partisan witch hunt about nothing. I have another date in front of me, but I think the isa good job over Teddy himself impeachment? If impeachment requires Republicans assign on board collagen. Voters are not. There are public and members will not be there either and, I think in some ways he doesn't have the fire as long as it was at? This was a stay in office. Well, that's up nicely. Its trump may have not fired Mahler, but he has fired origin some other folks as well. More than talk about that, because there is some shake up going on at the White House among the staff there, including the person who will

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Slash five, three: eight, that's light stream dot com, slash five, three, eight subject: credit approval re include point: Five percent Otto pay discount terms and conditions apply and offers a subject: change without notice once again visit light stream, dot com, slash five, three, eight for more information we're back now. Last week, Trump announced his nominations for attorney general anew and ambassador, and perhaps the biggest new said that his chief of Ass John Kelly will leave by the end of the year. He hasn't announced a replacement for Kelly, yet so Perry. Just the big picture. Here. Is there a theme to the kind of people who are leaving, are being driven out of the administration and then who is joining the administration, this latest round of checkups yeah. The one thing I would say is that when the emission first started, Tromp was hiring people who, have had their own, he wasn't clear what MRS Lulling, what's for, I don't know, had an ideology on every issue. It wasn't me when he was hiring from different parts of the republican Party. Different kinds of people like

He hailed, criticise and one twenty sixteen, but hired her for a big job. Oh you know him master. There was an estimated buys you ve, no trop unheeding agree on policy in any way. As far as I could tell right, sailors, and no one knew what he was really for in now, the new people that are increasingly brought being Brian or people who I think trunk and count on to some extent, we're going to be in his view loyal to him. Like just sessions allowed this. You know it whose himself from Russia allow this modernization star. You know you look at Guillain Barre statements he's been criticizing Mueller pretty bluntly in the investigation for two years. So I do think it's like the one thread of line I see here is no general Kelly and Trump have a lot of tension. The name and being floated are people who are gonna, be more sort of trompe. L the more loyal the trump that's. What I see is like is: we have a being set of a team of rivals to a team of well as a certain way, spend a little bit on that, because I mean what about you. Was not loyal. He seemed to

trumps agenda? He seemed to back him up. Peace, didn't really can't go to the media and tell people what he really thought your stories of people saying Kelly- is trying to stop Trump from X and why and you know Kelly's imposing discipline, which implies traumas and have any there were a lot of it as a lot like Kelly has resisted to some of the things on the border, the Trump one of the border forcibly me resident nothing Kelly's, not address about border enforcement. Understand it's rough, wanted morbid. There's been a lot of stories of Vienna last year and a half ditch basely, suggesting the trunk Kelly things trunk radegund, when undisciplined and those stories assume came from Kelly and Trump does not like such a story. Then I assume the next chief of staff will leak left off of the trumpet the tea things Kennedy, and I also think I mean Kelly was trouble. Run. Immigration means. That is why he joined the Trump White House. That is why he became involved.

I do think I mean I gotta say I loved Rex, till her sons coming out of the woodwork. Was it Friday, Thursday to basically say what did what it should have been reported in a unique but he called Trump a moron that was what was reported. He essentially said that in a nice way what he thought of TAT much the trap Fridays that he doesn't reed he's unstructured and I think and the he asks people the law for him here, and I think, however, people want to judge Kelly and her and whatever they want to say about their ten years and that in the trunk ministration you guys are disciplined people who worked they re way, through highly regimented organisations, whether it be the Marine corps, or Exxon Mobile and they obviously

not mesh well with the tunnel trumps way of doing things you, I think it's a question of kind of what is your distinguishing characteristic. So, like tellers and distinguishing characteristic, when I came in, I think was you know he came from the business world can represented. The corporate wing of the Republican Party Kelly's ask have, as clear said, was a kind of hard line. Immigration stance, some of these-

all that have been named recently. Sorted dont have a distinguishing characteristic, and so in that void I think you're just sort of left with loyalty to tromp dependent on tromp, I mean Whittaker. The acting agee was sort of a vessel of tromp right. I think that what that's what Perry is getting out? It's not like these people, dont have their own beliefs or their own Yonah Razumihin, but they lack a power base outside of Trump to a greater extent Then people who populated the administration at the start of trumps tenure and also those an element I mean with with bar- and we should talk that way, embargoes phenomena to be the new turning general were. His policy. Its line up with what Trump perceives at least two he needs at this particular moment and others like a myth,

Of this personal be loyal, and also this person will do Ex Wincey, which trump on I mean we should also talk about. It is kind of so different that we discuss sort of the in previous administrations, the chief of staff with someone who kind of you, the way of the president right like they weren't someone where they were like? What are they believe on this policy? Will it didn't not necessarily because sure they might influence the present, but ultimately they facilitating the goals of the White House in the same with the Department of Justice right? It was. They are facilitating administrative, the administrations policy. Whereas in the Trump administration we're doing this kind of new thing where you have to look for well, which camp they belong to and which, where they leaning in part, because the administration doesn't have a particular. Focus on a number of issues- and I think that we should we should stop for a second and say like that in and of itself is- is interesting-

it also interesting that I don't know if this is putting a too strongly, but this whole, the last few days with the chief of staff positions, have been knots. Look I'm I'm not in the White House, I can say for sure, but based on how things unfolded, it very much seems like Trump thought he had Nick airs his vice president, MIKE pensive chief of staff. Right now what not for this job and then knickers was like. I don't want this job. Is I mean that remarkable. You know chief of staff, The present United Sates is typically a pretty plum gig and it seems, like Trump, is, having some problems filling up. Now I, but she I wonder, right now so very unimpaired. Why? Why are people? Turning on this job is, first of all, make airs sort of please trunk. The way trump played only meteors, savvy guy and pro realises this job is not going to program like

the thing on some level. I think change, is increasingly our work people who are more in line with tromp are getting job I think that what is it the start? I think there was an ideology administration, I think they're increasingly, there is, and on some level like Nick Ayers, is kind of establishment republican guy. He work for TIM Pawlenty at some point. He's not really likes from peeing in a certain way, so I think it might have been better for both sizes we're gonna get seen the name like mark meadows. The head of the Freedom Party has been. There were actually know what Mark meadows organizational you don't work is but delegation make a little bit more since increasingly, I think it actually would make sense for Trump to have people that agree with him. He jobs as people as about the people who can of doping respect his views, can it trying to work around them all the time it would meet. You know, I don't think that's been the common theme is, like I don't know,

Stephen Miller's organizational style is, but Stephen Miller believes in the sort of being a truck campaign, black form he believes in the elect ability of their platform. He would be a purse it will be logical, as I think tromp is like trying to people who the establishment would like weirdly like Nick AIRS, but on noticeable actually be good for tromp, and I think those people themselves are smart enough to not one of these peoples there? I don't know Perry, because Kelly agreed with Trump on at least some of the big policy question takes up. Not only that Foreign policy rightly but never white bullet. What you're saying you use that word ideology, I'm curious how you would find it, but isn't it just agreeing with I'm busy ideology? It's not about an issue is number it's just what its. I will back this. Wine is, like maybe tell us a long time ago, but tell us and supported like the IRAN deal in the Paris deal. Those things were not, and he was trying to push trunk towards US things. Those p. All need to be weeded out because they don't agree with Trump on anything that that's, maybe that's a bitter observers

a little harder, but I think Kelly did not Kelly. Does not. Fourth, the weird Russia policy tromp once nobody else does he want. This thing about the mention of Mark meadows is that I mean you know you ve got mic mulvaney, another former member of the free press, caucus moving in. I mean it's interesting to me that this particular group that was the thumb in the eye for years ago. Couldn't you could now be king over, like literally the other than I hear, the other, the I it's just that it's a fascinating transition that happened incredibly quickly. I guess what I'd say, though it is, I think there have been a couple conflict in the White House around policy like at like Perry, as you said, you know tell us in disagree with Trump on climate by the conflict between Trump trumpet. His chief of staff have been more about like process and temperament and norm. And so on.

I would not be totally surprised if Trump doesn't appointed chiefest ass. Just think it more points three chiefs of- and their more like office managers. You know, like. I just think, there's There is a structural problem here, not just thinking about joint shoot assistance in a menacing community minister. I think it is right that there is a component of this. It is purely Shrunk doesn't want to be having rom Emmanuel has an appendage daily in the Atlantic. Today, basely saying you If you want to see up their who actually works, you have to empower the person in this room eleven his trunk was in power. Anyone let wrap up a little bit with them William BAR he's gonna be he's nominated to be the new attorney general. He will oversee the rush investigation among among many other things, so Perry. What do we need to know about him and his prospects going forward so bars. Public policy views

most issues like immigration like longer he's a very easy just sessions like you sort of an old style republic in he's not for criminal justice reform. He's forget tough on the border on most. He'll be pretty someone just sessions except on the other Russia. Is you right think he will be more trouble? I think that's what's from things in terms of his prospects, weak prospects. We now have the The three republican senators instead of fifty one, also the flakes in the Cars are gone now and the moon, the new three, I would argue, are more conservative than the fifty one before so I think he has pretty good prospects also, even though he, where we think of bars record, he was the attorney general before eminently qualified by resume in his heart me to see him not being confirmed yet

Yeah good will and that's open, so we're gonna, move on and we're going to check in on the possible election fraud in North Carolina- ninth congressional district before you that, though, let me Are you that today's progress has brought you buy mot and bow? Martin bow genes are beautifully handcrafted. The family artisans, who make the genes have been honing their Denham skills for decades Oh, you can be the recipient. You can tell the second you put on your first pair, who doesn't want genes it by artisans everything your leslie, maybe artisans, including your genes, What's more, they are at least half the price of designer genes of the same quality that would sell for two hundred bucks or more with mine Our genes you'll get ridiculous, a comfortable genes that are good looking with a classic Jean style and all for a fair price and the real and here is the convenient try on programme. This is the perfect gift for those of you who are indecisive, or perhaps those of you who fall between so as you can, order to pursue genes and I'll come with a prepaid, pre printed shipping label once you find the perfect pair

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a malicious nature of whatever happened. Air has become sort of more certain if that makes sense, where the prospect that this is some innocent they are ass. Some weird confluence of factors that we that we just I'll have a hand on yet scenes there a very remote and you, I think you ve, seen a couple kind of discreet things that that led to that one, the Harris campaign how's the republican campaign, release the efficacy filing that showed paid thirty four thousand dollars, or at least thirty, four thousand dollars to a firm that employed. This consult in that allegedly or Shelly was messing around with these absentee ballot there's a month, one sort of layer between what what is happening on the ground and Harris campaign, but it seemed like only one layer which is not a tunnel layers

I just mean that, like it's not like it wasn't it wasn't a sophisticated conspiracy. If there was one executive contracted with somebody who contract with somebody was you now and then I think, Harris, I think, has has in his messaging moved a little bit as a result where republicans Carolina before had to have been like certify. This result. This is crazy. Let's get this over with certain the result and now they're a little bit more like well. If you, show me evidence that there was fraud here large enough to change the result. I am open to a new election large enough to change the result as a key phrase. Their rank and up the law doesn't necessitated

bright, but the politics might that's. An interesting discussion occurring in July think they can declined to certify the result, a coffer new election if they're the languages like if there is fraud, that Would you know cast a pall over, but that the election, a house, could also refuse to see him yeah, I'm sorry, sir, yet there it's kind of two ends. Yes, there's the the result could not be certified locally, in which case, I think the politics are pretty simple they're not in in order for that to happen. You'd have to have sort of clear a clear case, and I think that politics would play out and there's be a new the kind of middle ground I think, could be potentially messy, as if North Carolina does certify the results by then the House Democrat. Don't Harris? Then you would, I think, have a big fight him. I don't know how it boil.

Is there any chance Perry that the House Democrats Seat Harris at this point hard for me to see that right now is blue, He was pretty strong and saying we're not you know we're gonna keep looking in this carefully and in nice. And I think a lot of pressure because of this. Nature. What happened not to see? There's s you use, a little bare. I think if the story plays out such that Harris the House, campaign did not know about us and no evidence comes out that they did and if things develop, where maybe you know, the scale of this is on the smaller and of what, possible now and those results get certified, then I, I think it would be hard for out for policy, not the seat, Harris if locally. I may put it this way. I think it would be hard for a policy to be seen as acting against. North Carolina interests, we agree night, sir, if it's sort of way

your liner and is not making the Harris. I agree with you. I wasn't sure how likely that was right. Yeah yeah, yeah you're, not gonna, steal for a second I think I will. I heard the sum the sleep God fast, but someone brought up a really good point which is this sort of like a fraud where it's not, you know, Phillip, we talk so often about the not very prevalent problem of voter voter rod, but this kind of free odd is so common in american history that we have blanket jokes about the city of Chicago and its election fraud or, like you know, J, J, F, K or I'll be J, or you know it's it's sort of interesting or, like you know, any anything with Huey long right and which saying is good, obviously, but it is this kind of thing we ve become used to talking fraud in this sort of? Oh, it's an instead, this threat right, you don't see it, but it's happening, and this looks pretty much like

fashion, yeah fraud, Now it's like yeah, but so we got. It is a little bit less dependent. The really kind of talk about whether this is certainly a bunker. Kay. Seven from these details are short of stunning, but is it we'll just that you could kind of ouch below the surface of a lot of elections in this country and find this kind of behaviour, and we just our, maybe, more willing to scratch these days or the funding of the medium term in or is this really so out there? That is gonna break through only. We have evidence to say that this is something that happens in a lot of places. It might, but I am not willing to like that right or maybe not in this specifically, but just that, as you were saying, you are our democracies, so messy that in a lot elections and maybe the margin isn't that close? It doesn't really matter, but you can look if you really pry, he would see some I think, Avery behave. I think it be really easy to find me

es. I think this level of what were at least appears to be very intentional and deliberate and plan fraud, I'm sure, exist elsewhere, but I can't be incredibly comment. There are certainly I think of it, because this has to do with picking up absentee out ballotings like that. You can certainly find activists predict in the south. Who will say this particular precinct, which is black, was there were some weird stuff going on people were in either you can make it visual ballot argument where people are short of turned away for bad reasons? Right those cases are short of the drip out after elections there litigated in the after affectin in a local magistrates, run those cases and they dont have the same impact or the Have the same media play, but they may have similar impacts where they have disenfranchised people. So I live, but I think this is they say it's a lurid example of fraud period

We can end on this. No, but you know, does feel like we're living in a time where there's more willingness to question some of the way our democracy works. More, maybe appetite for that or is it or is it just like? A couple of these things will pop up every once in awhile. I don't know the answer to that question I mean I think there is more discussion of gerrymandering, and voting irregularities in and sort of, our people being allowed to vote in a fair way happened in Georgia, but Secondly, this site, like I think, my ipod, as though this couldn't happen in a worse place. There's a larger you'll need here for a new election, but nor here a liner is one of the most politically bided zero, some states I'd argue. The republican Party of North Planet is really war more radical than most like the things that happened was council last week were invented in North Carolina, so

on the day, the Knook gonna Republicans and Democrats come together in the sky. We should have a new election even of its clearly the remedy. Probably here you're, really love ass. My concern is elinor how you resolve, maybe a killer. Anyway, anywhere any state, but maybe Rhode Island. Better than not selection. By that I mean Perry, said that a new elections might be the most at risk. Next upper away to kind of start fresh here. Is that a possibility? What would that look like? So? Yes, it it's definitely possibility. It could take a couple different forms at this point. If the seaport of elections doesn't certify Harris, then there, which would have just read, HU, the November elections no primaries just a kind of like. Let's, let's try this again Paris would have to be the candidate unless he got for bed died or left upper bed moved out of state. I don't really care where the Harris would be the candidate, though

This would be the capital awkward. If policy in the house declines to seat Harris, Alexei the Board of election certifies the result, but policies like that. We're not seeding you then I think they would have. The primary and the general election again and potentially that would that would give Republicans a few more options, as you have to imagine if they have to hold this election again and Harris's the Republic in Canada. Sure wouldn't do that. Well, that's a situation where I think it would be seem to see if, if the local Republican Party would try to start right in yeah right in or like at it, but it, but I don't know nothin, be they political wealth, or at least I could do that We will see what comes next on that front until this was that they provide a much more important update, which do remember. Last week we had Michael bits or on tat to talk about my son. He has continued to be fantastic on Essen and writing about this entreating about this

we mention on the show that his twitter handle is at bow, tie politics, and then we pointed out that he should go by the Euro. About high politics. Dot com. Well, we say on the show, one of our listeners are, and one of our enterprising listeners heard. That immediately went in check to see if both high politics outcome was available and it still was so he snatched up before someone. Could I guess doktor bitter had just gotten busy for the rest couldn't go, buy it and then through me, I put them in touch and now he is transferred both high politics not come to doktor butcher. Who is right, on earth, so shuddered Jonathan call mire one of our listeners for doing that. You know I'm nice. I bought a website for the first time in my life hundred right, Org I bought who is individual one that time one with the number one Scott out with a number of riots broke out, but I body if by I'd by both, I bought it and quickly realized. I dont know how to do anything with it.

You know airspace sponsor a made money wants to buy in the individual one another. I am important journalism, dot com and unimportant, It was in that time to get involved in this work. Jump drunken purchase now, none of that, but they both they both redirect Buzzfeed, that's funny. Butter, ok, that's the end of the show. Thank you to clear again. Thank you. Thanks, Micah Micah, Kumon dot com is another go for it and take you play begging, Junior. Let's go My name is Jody Avirgan, Galen Druke is a producer, and Tony Chow is in the control room. You can get in touch by emailing us podcast at five hundred and thirty, eight, that you can also course tweeted us with any questions or comments about the show. Again felicity and we'll see you soon her