« Freakonomics Radio

306. How to Launch a Behavior-Change Revolution

2017-10-26 | 🔗
Academic studies are nice, and so are Nobel Prizes. But to truly prove the value of a new idea, you have to unleash it to the masses. That's what a dream team of social scientists is doing — and we sat in as they drew up their game plan.
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If you'd like to listen to free economic radio without ads the place to do that is sticker premium, five dollars a month, and you can get a free month trial by going to stick your premium dot com and use a promo code freak. You also get access all our bonus. Episodes and you'll be supporting our show too, but sticker premium dot com, promo code, freak thanks. several months ago we introduce you to a pair of University of Pennsylvania professors, Angela Duckworth size. Do and an Katy milkman. They wanted to solve a problem, a problem that, if we fixed it Control solve every social problem we could think of. The problem is ourselves, in other words, the along with human beings, is that their human beings, and that they repeatedly decisions. Undermine their own long term, while being so Duckworth and milkman started, putting together a project.
were now calling it behavior change for good with a deliberate double Entendu era for good for permanent, but for good for you, the idea was hatched in response to a competition from the Macarthur Foundation, the prize. A one hundred million dollar research grant, but the behavior change for good project didn't even advance to the final and I was not only devastated, but I was I was surprised I mean arrogance I dont know narcissism. I I was shocked to hear that we were not advanced but by then Duckworth and Milk we're already recruiting a dream team of fellow researchers, they'd signed on a bunch of corporate partners and they'd fallen in love with their project, so they found some other money, not a hundred million dollars, but enough to get a going their mission to determine the best behavior change practices in
ray Realms number one health, so think smoking, cessation, healthy eating, increasing exercise, reducing our I'll consumption number two education: can we get kids too better outcomes in school and stick to school and finally, personal finance can be make better financial decisions on a daily basis, though, have better financial outcomes after months of planning, Duckworth and milkman being the first summit of their academic dream higher body, I'm super excited they met in an area. The Prince room in a sleek building in the? U pen medical center? There were lots of psychologists, several economists, a few computer scientists and mds some business and marketing professors and education, scholar and us so come up today and for economics, radio, an inside look at how to put together a massive research project whose ambitions
even larger. We think, because this is like the hall of Justice with all the superpowers in one place, that we might have a shot at doing something. It hasn't been number for you here, some of the problems they have identified. Let me more spending hundreds of billions of dollars in colleges, and I think we're not getting much value for our money. You here, the more obvious challenges. Most behavior change is actually not desirable and that's one of the major things that stands in our way and the risks of such a high stakes. Enterprise is they fail? That's going to be quite costly for it It's coming up right after this
from W and why see studios this is free. Can mix radio upon cast at explores the hidden side of everything? Here's your house, Stephen, that this project, behavior change for good, is noteworthy to me at least because it represents the next logical step in a revolution has been brewing for a few decades began with the research of Danny Conniston and a must, firstly, a pair of israeli psychologist, who changed the way, we think about thinking and decision making. The revolution was furthered by the economist Richard Sailor, who believe that his field should acknowledge that people rarely behave as rationally as economic models predict that people as Angela Duckworth says repeatedly make decisions undermining our own, more general lobbying and therefore
It might be wise to help people make better decisions for themselves and for society, maybe it'll take a nudge, maybe it'll mean expanding a choice set or shrinking. It may be it'll mean redesigning hubby incentives in a given situation or set up whether through smart algorithms or old fashioned. Human touch essentially is about helping people. Yet the satisfaction they need in the short term and the outcomes they want in the long term. This is the revolution. That's been happening, a behavior change It began in academia where it has come to be greatly valued comment. On a Nobel Prize and economics in two thousand to failure. Just ended. The Nobel a few weeks ago, the revolution has been creeping.
Into government policy, shops and commercial firms, we ve talked about this in previous episodes, like big returns from thinking small and the White House gets into the nudge business and the maddest men of all so yeah. The revolution is real, but it's hardly mainstream yet, and that is what Duckworth in milkman want too. change. This will not be easy. Institutional and societal change, when it happens at all, usually have slowly with a lot of push back. Also, behavior change is inherently a big ask, especially in the realms they're going after it's a lot more fun to cut costs. ass and spend ten dollars on a cheeseburger today, then, to go to class, skip the cheeseburger and invest the ten dollars for the future, but Duckworth when she first addressed her fellow researchers at pen projected nothing but confidence.
This is actually, I think, the best scientific problem and the most pressing social. problem that anybody could be working on so we're on that gives us to show up and that you want to work on it with us. She did acknowledge that thinkers from previous years, from Aristotle to Freud, had wrestled with the problem of self destructive behavior, but we're working in the twenty first century. So technology is something that was not in accordance for Freud. If you take any rough metric any I know you know back of the awful of calculation, of how much does behaviour play a role in urgent social problems, its huge. It suggests to us that if we can make a tiny dent in this problem that there is a possibility, helping millions of people in truly material, always keeping milkman was up next, Here's the vision. So there are lots of people out there running around in the world who would love to change their behavior? So maybe they have a problem with
savings, or are they just can't get themselves to take their medications, bore exercise or eat right or study hard, whatever it might be, they're out there and it turns out there are lots of gigantic organizations who are already serving these people, many of whom are our partners on this project. Partners like Bank of America, with forty seven million customers twenty four hour fitness with four million customer CBS care work. We just have unbelievable reach, so the idea is simple. The researchers gathered here today will partner with those organization, and others to run real world experiments on millions of people that will reveal the best way to accomplish lasting, behavior change. The main tool will be a custom built digital platform on the front end. It's an interface between a bank or a fitness or pharmacy chain and their customers on the back end. The platform is a powerful piece.
research software for the academics, these organizational partners will marketing, and hopefully these people come to sign up for our programme, though consent to be part of our research studies. Will data about programme participants daily decisions and will be we'll see? What's actually working we'll get that data as a pipe stream forever and then, of course, the end goal is to create a solution to behavior change for good, with lots and lots of baby testing. All of the ideas you can come up with.
You're going to have room for them. The goal is that, eventually, this platform will have the capacity to touch anything. We can dream up with plenty of power. So that's the vision for some people. That vision may be frightening. You may ask: why is my bank or jimfred drugstore turning me into a guinea pig and what about my privacy? This concern may strike others as a bit queen, given that we're living in a time when billions of people willingly share their innermost preferences with Google and Facebook and Amazon, but still its concern here is another concern for some people. When Richard sailor was beginning to popular eyes, the behavior change nudges it he got famous for he called the idea, libertarian
turn listen to some people. That might seem like a delicious oxymoron, but others might say yak I'd like to make my own decisions. Thank you very much. I don't need your paternalism or they might just think libertarians or right wing, kooks or left wing kooks or something cookie in any case, Duckworth an milkman believe that the benefits of their behavior change project will far outweigh the costs and so to get their summit rolling. They opened up the floor to a discussion about the digital.
form their building and how it would affect study design. Things got pretty nerdy real vast. How are you thinking about the French with heavy partition date? Ass would be some studies that might have been more specific eligibility criteria that were passed a classic that's it is during the first break I caught up with Duckworth Ed Milkman. So just briefly describe what just happened. Your opening session, we gathered the scientists that we have been gathered and I'd rather than yet. We granted them sorry there I declare my love, my child and again, I know- and I know we gathered the scientists on our team to meet together. For the first time we pay scented dynamic overview of what we hope to both in the poetic of the sublime dream of solving
never change and then also in the very practical terms of the digital platform that were building in Katy talk about what the next, whatever forty eight hours is, meant to really accomplish. Well, we're too to get into the inner edge of this platform or building and make sure that its flexible enough to allow the scientists to test everything they might want to test that is flexible enough to allow them to dream up any sort of population they might want to recruit and make sure we're not making honestly statistical mistakes that would be insurmountable and prevent- as from accurately examining the evidence we collect. Most of the comments word August, typically in this kind of conversation about like features that could be different or that are their concerns, etc. Is that about what you are expecting at this stage? Yet having people work
had questions about the features, but they also have questions about the studied his line, and I would say, half of them were ones that we thought about, and the other half were ones behind, so that's really valuable them. So I mean that was gold. That was the most incredibly valuable. I think. Sixty minutes we ve had since we part of this project Gimme one, for instance, it stood out either of you. I really liked the point. We, I've thought about it? But I really like the point that some people may want to zoom in, on a particular time, with education. You might be trying to target a particular kind of student saved, for example, students who struggle in math. Can we use partner data to target recruitment amounts exactly something we have to be flexible and allow on our platform, and we haven't solved it yet one of the points of David leaves in the economist brought up The incentives get absolute many of us. If you paid him so little, some of them are gonna feeding.
the old manipulated. When you give people incentives, all you think about is increasing their motivation, but when the incentives, our poultry, you can actually have a backfire and so people look at this tiny amount of money and they are now going to be less motivated than they were. If you had given them, nothing milkman pointed out one more feature of the opening session. Lots of me on this room of actually never met before many dont know one another's work, because this is such a cross, disciplinary group and so the he's going to be the time when the mines, meat and actually here from one another about their decades of research and insights and hopefully it'll sparks he's in collaboration back to conference room now for a series of speed talks where the researchers would give a thumbnail view of themselves and their specialities among the first ones, Adam grant the organizational psychologist and author from pens Wharton School of business. What everyone who is a traitor come together with a girl
group under achievers rant, has already done a lot of work on behavior change. Most behavior change is actually not desirable and that's one of the major things that stands in our way is that the thing that we're trying to convince ourselves or others to do is not actually something that we want to do or that they want to do and got me wondering, instead of highlighting all the benefits of of changing for the self, what if we focus more on the benefits to others, so, instead of her the benefits. What if we highlighted pro social benefits of behavior change, Grant had seen evidence of this effect in his own research in trying to get fund razors to work harder to get doctors to wash their hands more often and lifeguards to be more attentive? I guess I'm curious about whether, if we educate people about behavior change in the underlying processes that drive it is it actually then easier to
their attitudes, that gets it open question. But I hope this group is able to figure it out windy. Would professor of psychology in business at the University of Southern California studies habit formation, say. I think one of the things that initiated this conference is that the field is really good. Scientific field, more broadly, is really good at some things, and not so good at others, and the things that we really good at right now is changing behaviour in the short were also really good. I think at changing people's knowledge and beliefs, we're not so good at changing long term. Behaviour about an exam Ok, one is the five day: fruits and vegetables. Anyone remember this
This was really successful in one way. It was a tremendously large scale intervention. It was successful at changing knowledge. We now know that we should eat more fruits and vegetables. It had no effect on behaviour. In fact, consumption has gone down since the programme started, makes The challenge of changing behaviour. Long term was echoed by Todd Rogers, a behavioral scientist at Harvard most treatment, backstop persist and some I am they do and when they do, we have no idea why and it's hard to predict which will persist in which, while the economist, David leaps and also at Harvard used. His speed talk to cover a particular problem he's identified in his classroom. The use and abuse of laptop computers there's a huge negative externalities for other students in the class just sitting there and the person next to you is.
Clattering away and you're distracted by the sound and your occasionally looking at their screen, and then it makes you want to look at Facebook to so there's all sorts of problems like that. It's a classic short versus long term dilemma. The web offers instant gratification. That undermines are very good intentions to get the most out of class and I think that's all about present bias. We go into the classroom and we are convinced, I am going to be a good student and suddenly other things become very going and very tempting and word distracted by those other very gratifying operator, Today's and suddenly we ve lost forty five minutes of the fifty minute lecture leaps in seizes as smallish problem, with potentially huge ramifications, we're spending hundreds of billions of dollars in colleges and I think we're not getting much value for our money. So what are the possible solutions to the laptop dilemma? We could have a laissez faire policy, students or adults when they reach college age, let them decide
we could have an educational intervention. We could explain in all of these issues we could ban laptops What about all these? I don't really love any of these options, so let me offer a different alternative one that we could actually as a group tasked or think about testing in what is this alternative? In my class of Harvard we have an opt in laptop policy. I caught up with leaves and afterward to hear some more about this. Now David, you were talking about a project of yours which prompted for me many questions which I have to say I recorded, The questions on my laptop, so I proved the value of my laptop right there. But can you talk about what you are describing and then, where you want to go with that? So I love the point that the laptop was good for you for a lot of people Lecture Hall. It's actually a distraction for some people and Lecture Hall. It's exactly what they need to take notes to look up related information. It compliments their ex Ryan's rather than destroying it, and so the problem is: how do we separate the wheat from the chaff? Couldn't give like a sixty
Second, summary of year of your pilot study, we have two sections in class. One section is for people who don't want to he's a laptop and don't want to be around others using a laptop. Then we have another section, which is the laptop section, and our view is that different students should choose one of the other section. Our concern is that it Just let students in real time make the choice sitting down. What are you I do right now a lot of people would slip open their laptop because the ten t is overwhelming, so what we do is tell our students at the start of the semester? It's up to you tell us if you want to be in the laptop action and will assign you too, that section and there's a deadline for making that decision, and once you make the decision is final, for everyone else who doesn't opt into the laptop section. There defaulted into this no laptops action and what we find
about eighty percent of our students stay with the default, of being in a non laptops, action, and when we serve our students at the end of the year and say, did this policy of having these two sections facility you're learning on a the ten scale. The average rating is a little over eight. So I think it's about letting people choose for themselves, but letting them choosing a deliberative, thoughtful, careful way at the start of the semester and then once they have committed to one path of the they're letting that decision have its consequences. So you want to replicate or enlarge this exact state. Yeah. Right now, we ve got an anecdote. It should be replicated across. Dozens of course and there should be much more careful efforts to actually measure whether its affecting learning, whether stood its value this or whether students feel that this is inappropriate. Paternalistic behaviour on our part
and so it went for the rest of day. One of behavior change for good lots of spit bawling about methodology, potential risk your ideas and more a few quick observations. I heard more than I would have thought I'd here about shifting the theoretical framework of decision making and less than I would have thought about basic incentives like demarcation, but let's be realistic. Bees are a bunch of top to your academic researchers. Theoretical frame. This is how they got to where they are. I also heard less than I would have thought about. One of the inherent challenges and all behavior change research that the people most responsive to behavioral nudges are often the ones who already have a pretty decent track record with self discipline and delayed gratification. It sort of the behavioral equivalent of four
suitical trials using the least sick patients that can find, and one more thing every conference I've ever been to get behind schedule just the way it is somehow. I thought this one would be different. I thought that a bunch of people trying to teach the rest of us how to say, use our time wisely, that they might have some magical time management tricks, but they didn't, which proves, if nothing else, that these behaviorist wizards are like us, human coming, after the break day, two of the conference drilling down into some experimental ideas and a visit from no
Laureate Dan Economy, the eminence Greece of the behaviorist movement, who offers encouragement, caution and some inside tricks you'll have to promise in order to get anything. They, too, of the behavior change for good conference, began with break out sessions, researchers from different fields, talking about designing smart experiment, to help people stay fit, eat better, get out of debt, and so on. My team focused on getting high school students to study more for the S. Eighty, its Angela Duckworth. We We went from the mundane to the sublime here's, a listen with Duckworth and David Yeager psychologist at the University of Texas Austin. Maybe if you
capitalism, some wave of motivation to study like right after the Piazzi tee and get it at a time when not a reflective it anyone winners, not only economic conflict. Wanting I'm seeing emerging is, is to not fight the tendency to be performed Is oriented and lcd prep, but invite people too mastery oriented in their preparation skills, It has to do in a random Simon experiment, delivered through call tricks and through texting to half of them On the other hand, I think that is possible air, and then that would give you a model for thinking about the content of the text. Messages right. I caught up with Duckworth words. So we spent a lot of time figuring out how many kids are they kids from disadvantage? is very technical, but we ended. The sublime, which is what is the right of passage to adulthood. in America there really isn't one if we act They use this challenge as away every framing the transition from high school to college, in a way that
actually give kids and on ramp to that as a positive dropping them into this thing called young. Heard on a college campus somewhere where they have no supporting K. What happens next? The next steps for our group is that we will prepare a random assignment study for high school we'll seniors who are taking the S eighty this October and what was Katy milk means break out session about my team, as diving into an actual study design for random assignment trial, trying to help people there's more regularly in here. Listen to that among milkman group, were Lauren S, Grace Winkler, postal fellow in psychology at pen and a yell at Fischbach, a professor of behavioral science and marketing at the University of Chicago. I must say I know yes essays, what you make it fun by adding users. So why are they finding fund bank doing an exercise contagious like brings use or as us we could give them strategies for making work, otherwise make it from a they have either by turns
Even imagine we tell them to try these overnight. We definitely try doing them. While listening to me, or audio books are watching tv shows. We could use it and the thing that he was silent areas you can launch a tv show more easily be while liking, probably Alan's myself, music music. You can hear and chatted with milkman after her session. What about making the activity self more fun or less intimidate. I think one. Big barrier for people who don't know the way around a Jim is like all these people with all these machines. They know how to move em, I don't so what? How do you make or fun for someone who's, not acclimated, so we actually decided that our design should have two elements. One element is focusing people either on the fun or on what most effective. So that would be one thing we test a verse
The second element will be rewarding people for exploring different activities at the jam and then reporting back to I've been seeing if having them go through. That Cochin process could help them zoo men on what's rate for them in a way that led them to form a more sustainable exercise. Great and then, create details. What happens next? What happens now Since we go back and forth a lot of times on the draft we literally put together in the last hour and a half of materials, and then we do heck of a lot of piloting to make sure that our questions all make sense, and then we do more piloting, launch a new law. Should how large a population will launch the thousands of peace. bull and are are aimed for one Data is January of twenty eight team, when people be benefiting from from the right resolutions and eager to sign up for a programme that helps and exercise more in the partner on this is who we have two partners Twenty four hour, fitness and blinked fitness
as a result of the work on this day and in the weeks to follow the behavior change for good project would line up a great number of pilot studies that will kick off in early too eighteen. We would also come up with a few million more dollars to fund their project and they had some other big names, their roster of research scientists for this first summit. Meanwhile, the highly was undeniable, whose along chat and cuban aim with the psychologist, Danny Conoman The common is normally the elder statesmen of behavioral science, but is also our beyond say so, We are the largest overwhelmed with joy and gratitude when he said yeah, I'm common, close out the session continents greater was maxed baiser men himself, a most distinguished scholar. He teaches business administration at Harvard and is written many landmark pieces on decision making, ethics and negotiation by way of nervous,
Have you in getting, and I he may not be driven. Began with a brief overview of commons research, most of it done with his late collaborator, AMOS Turkey. The two of them were the subject of Michael Louis. the book, the undoing project, which Louis discussed on this programme in an episode called the men whose ordered a thinking revolution. It is incorrect. Well to me how many differences there is of human existence, The guy's work has touched and influenced now max Baiser Mint again I realize it most one room, no remember the night, you seventys when at least not clearly when there was a high when after your seventy four paperwork. Psychologist became acutely aware of your work. I think economist would paying too much attention and then eventually the behavioral Economics movement starts.
The last millennium- and this was kind of more of an academic logo- shirt Then this millennium, we see is robust movement we're a world migrants. The dew was like the members here go inside how you you explain the shift from academic too what interests so every canal makes as it currently exists. I think that's right behaviour Economic started in a bar Danny Common and AMOS Durski, we're having drinks with Eric Warner future President of the Rustle Sage Foundation and Eric said that he wants to bring psychology and economics closer together, and he wanted our advice as to how he should go. And I remember telling
you shouldn't spent any money and psychologists want to influence economics should economists. Might interested in psychology asked US now there was such an economist of his name- was Richard. You ve heard Richard sailor before in this programme, to professor economics and behavioral science at the University of Chicago Boot School of business. I ve. Never a real job and it was thaler common sense who put the economics in behavioral economics, because the very first read that Eric Warner Gay when he became president of the Brussels Safe Foundation was for Dick, to spend a year with lean back. I was at the University of British Columbia the time after
time. Failure began. Writing a column called anomalies in the Journal of economic perspectives at the suggestion of its editor Joseph Stiglitz and dig published in only four years, and they cast doubt on the basic, rational agent Mulder systematically without breaching justice that had a huge. So when you ask Behavioral Economics happened, it's an accident like all accidents, there was that meeting in a bar, there was that year in Vancouver, and then it was Joseph Stiglitz having an idea but anomalies now but the conversation turned to the behavior change for good project. What we have been talking about how to get the Nazis occurs. Actually, sticking plaster give us wisdom.
I will give you was the mother of cites. The idea, For me, the best idea, the hook- and I heard it is an underground and its the story of how you in use people to change their behaviour as thought they could do. It Now he is my electoral grandfather, Kurt Louis was a german american psychologist who, in the early twentieth century, developed seven Eddie as it became central to modern psychology. Among them, the people's behaviour is strong. Driven by two main external forces. There all day being forces drive you in a particular direction and are we streaming forces which prevented you from going
and and the notion that offers is that behaviour is an equilibrium between the driving and rest framing forces, and you can see that you know the speed at which should drive, for example, is an equilibrium rushing someplace. You feel tired or you're worried about you know, there is, will it be him speak in a lot of things can be described as an equilibrium between driving, Louis inside was that, if you want to change. Is one good, do it and when that wasted, and the good to do it is by diminishing the restraining forces not by increasing
and it turns out to be profoundly knowledge. In most cases, condiment explained we tried it. in people's behaviour, with a mishmash of arguments, incentives and threats, diminishing the restraining forces, is a completely different kind of it, because, instead of asking, how can I get him or her to do it in stone the question of? Why isn't she doing it already very different? Was why not, and then one by one systematically and yours. What can I do to make it easier for that person and it too that the way to make things easier almost always by controlling the individual's entire, broadly speaking by just making it.
Is there any incentive that will begin next training sentence There is social pressure. There is somebody is against it. I want to influence be, but there is a in the background. Then it's actually a restraining, force and be list now don't be. I have never heard psychological idea that interests me. Why does much others perhaps because has it been impressionable age the floor had by now opened up to questions for common, and I took my shop so kind of oral question isn't just part of human instinct, the assumption The driving works better than restrainingly. Is a little dictator complex We have not only about ourselves than others
it seems to me that this is a natural thing to do it is when you want to move an object. You move it. you want to move somebody you try to move them the idea of looking. At the situation. From that individuals. Point of view, which is the only way that you go, find me spinning That is really not very natural, so it is primordial. a very basic that when we want things to move people, one of the things I was thinking about is as the risk of over promising and I feel like every few. There is. I hear people worrying about. Have we over promise what psychology can contribute to policy? And you know our people expecting too much from things like the nudge unit relative to what they can deliver
areas as we embark on this, Sir massive adventure, how you think about those breasts and managing expectations, walter- in a very public way. There is a real problem, the social problems that, if you realistically presented people what can be achieved solving a problem. They will find that completely uninteresting. You have the promise in order to get anything? And that's that you know, that's really is part of it before You know you take the problem of poverty and approve of jobs, was about to solve the problem. He was just enough to solve the problem and if the realistic, Jane which is to reduce this by twelve percent, decrease that by five that and so on of people said that
we want to solve the problem and so on promising is part of the game. I think you know you can't get anywhere with that some degree of overtones promising timetables. I agree that promising has the virtue accelerates the initial ever, but it has the cost undermines the ongoing effort so once prized particularly, in light of all the work you have done, explaining the psychological biases like planning policy and other buyers lead us to promise not because we're doing it as a rational, sophisticated strategy, but rather as a psychological, lower prices,
are you saying today that over promising is a wise strategy? I would never use the worldwide strategy is necessary. I would say very unlikely to happen. Otherwise, when you look at successes. The people carried out. Those big successes were unreasonably optimistic that the recommended- Are you saying you just have to just just saying you are probably going. The promise of a lot of good reasons. and I wouldn't find you on this. That's not the worst thing that can happen because It may be necessary to get the resources and it may be necessary to get the initial enthusiasm
that is needed to do anything at all. there's so much emotion that realistic promises are the major disadvantage and they the major disadvantage, because everybody else's over promising after condiments talk for economics, radio produced Greg resolves ski and I caught up with common in the hallway when you're designing incentive. So obviously the people were organizing this conference. You know they're very dedicated their disciplined and then a lot experiments, are designing, are on the general public and Do you really serve lessons when you know thinking about incentives or how to design incentives or experiments interventions in general. You know when there's a mismatch between the people, who are designing incentives and the people who were the incentives. Therefore. Well, I think that people who cannot identify with their subjects built business.
into they measure to experiment, so very little. Sympathy for those and- and I think, you're putting too much using the word incentives more more offers. I would it would, I think, incentives are really only part of the story to intervention. Maybe would be a better and and wood I have to get used to is that will designed interventions as powerful as we can make them, and then they will have small effect. We have in some ways the people do. This should be a way. ahead of time that, yes, we hope it's going to have a practically should nevertheless, and it will not probably early on your career. You doing a lot of real world applications of of your theories in the israeli military and in other places, did you feel that environment versus doing it closer to it.
David, you think there's like any any lessons that could be sort of learned from this sort of project. Well I was always interested in the real world. I never saw a real difference all these facts that I studied so in the domain of judgment and decision making were with real effects that I expected with replicate in the real world, and they were based on personal experiences. So I find this could be Let me just add one last question, so I don't know how much you know about Angela and Katy s project to its extremely ambitious there partners from big banks to big educational institutions. These firms and they have access to since may be millions of customers that their bring together all these researchers to try to come up with interventions hugely ambitious
There are many layers to get it to success. Talk just remind about what you think are the odds that it will her. What dimensions it may work honour where they might be frustrated would you can hope for is what is called practically significantly which is usually a few percent, an If you gave a few percent at birth, low cost, that's a success, but naturally you have to want more and you have to settle for what you get the fact that working on a large scale is hugely important. That's a new departure and that that very far, especially especially their success, I mean if they fail, that's going to be quite costly.
For a long time, but I think that they will have at least partial success. The ideas are good. They are good, something good will happen something good will happen? Maybe On the other hand, he also says if they fail it's going to be quite costly. For a long time, I asked Angela Duckworth weather Danny Commons assessment scared or off? After all, she is devoting most of her professional life and next couple years to this project, my favorite is Rudyard Kipling. If and this line is, if you can trust yourself when all Doubt you but make allow for their doubting too? In other words, do you do about when someone says there are. Nineteen comes, you haven't, thought a write, em all down and thank you for giving us an ending.
The episode was very nice of you to enter. We will be keeping tabs on the behavior change for good project in will. Let you hear about it in future. Episodes meanwhile, coming up now. I'm on economics, radio, I'm guessing you ve heard about the concern that companies like Google, Facebook, Amazon have gotten to powerful for the public good. They have developed capacity to manipulate us. Chicken trawlers to control the information that is delivered to us then too, that primary issue, but also the secondary issue of how firms like these are shaping public opinion by spending lavishly on, think tanks and foundations, and that's become relevant because they are, they fired vociferous critic of Google from the foundation with a controversy like this, there are bound to be differing,
is. We do not pay to play. We we take funding and we do our work and those two things are separate. How philanthropic is this kind of philanthropy dont think philanthropists deserve that amount of charity? If you will, power deserve scrutiny in a democratic society, not gratitude the hidden side of corporate philanthropy that next time on for economics, radio, free Radio is produced by W and my c studios and W productions. This episode is produced by Gregg Zawoiski with help from Harry Huggins. Our staff also includes Some hockenberry merit Jacob Stephanie, Tam, Eliza, Lambert, Emma Morgenstern and Brian Gutierrez. We had help this week from am bare and special thanks to lie. or a zero Kelly Hughes, Valerie NASH Octavius boost Yuck Vivian, William.
A new glory for helping us with the conference. The music you here throughout the episode was composed by Luis Gara. You can subscribe to for economics, radio, and apple, podcast source teacher or where we get your packets? You should also check out our archive at free economics, dot com, stream or download every episode we have ever made. You can also find the transcripts there and links to the underlying academic research. We can also be found on Twitter, Facebook or the email at radio at for economics. Dotcom thanks for this.
Transcript generated on 2021-01-22.