If you'd like to listen to free economic radio without ads the place to do that is sticker premium five dollars a month and you can get a free month trial by going to stick your premium dot com and use a promo code freak. You also get access to all our bonus. Episodes and you'll be supporting our show to that sticker premium: dot, com, promo code, freak thanks to their Stephen donor, you're about to your conversation with Carol barked, the former CEO of Yahoo, and before that Autodesk. This interview was recorded in November for our recent six part series, the secret life of a city which you can find at for economics, dot, com, slash, see

it was, and now we are releasing some of our full interviews as special emphasis like this one of you enjoying their Stephen donor love, I care what Stephen donor Harry you, I'm fine, Stephen thank you nice to meet you, I like your style after sale. I didn't know too much about you before we got into this, but I like your forthrightness, and so we too bad. you're very on watch I'd, say much, but I just I mean I personally am a big fan of people who actually say what they mean and I know it gets really hard to do in the corporate sphere, I mean obviously in the political sphere too, but no, I I just dumb. I like it, you know before we get started. It strikes me that, as a ceo, it's kind of a different ballgame when you are running a company that is public facing

or maybe better put a meet a company that the media, for whatever reason, cares about alot. Just because you know with Yahoo: that's a Yahoo verses Autodesk! You know every move is magnified, even even if the the company that the media cares about happens to be much Allah than the other, its magnified just because the media cares. Is that observation accurate? of mine oars at not really the case now its act but there's another part to your observation and It is that, when I ran Yahoo, it was when social media was just starting to gain. Ground my ran Autodesk. We were still waiting for people, send us letters. I wasn't quite that vat, but there wasn't any instant feedback on cod how well or not. Well, we had done, and my first my first meaning it Yahoo. Could not believe looking out.

seeing all the little red lights of people recording me Anne. Turn on meeting I got all this is going to be really different. Yeah yeah yeah, and let me ask you again as a piece of that answer, do something he said really interests me. You know I think most people were most smart people. At least I would argue, know that feedback is really important. If wanna improve or do well, it's hearted hard to do it without good feedback. In a way social media provides a massive you, no feedback, loop or pool. I guess me, on the other hand, a lot of it is a not well considered, be necessarily truncated, see necessarily emotional MD. Maybe not that mean a valuable for you. I'm curious. You know having been a seal on both sides of the social me

yeah. You know start launch how use tried to sort out the useful feedback in the social media storm from just the noise. Well, that's very difficult and, as you said, feedback is extremely important and normally you'd. Look to people that you respect admire, ah And an you listen to their feedback and you have a chance to comment on their feedback, or at least considerate prime, Lee when you get into the. As you say, social media storm people archive meaning that no nothing. I mean lie the comments which I didn't go up that often and look at cause you to spend your whole day crying law. The comments were just because I was woman, you know woman can't run Yahoo, that's the problem,

yeah, so they were a lot of stuff was so far off the wall that you can't spend your time sorting through all the riffraff, to figure out where the good common tar, and so it is actually on it actually is not helpful. So you have to work harder to find real, honest feedback, not eyes, nothing with honest real feedback that that you should pay attention to and act upon, our summits go backwards to the beginning. First of all, let me have you just saying your name and what you do and in what you do. If you want include companies, you ve run great, if not great whatever you want. Ah, I'm cool, parts I may retired tech exec give us a little back on your family, your schooling in your early years in the technology industry.

I actually was very fortunate to get a computer science degree from University Wisconsin in nineteen seventy one, and why I say Fortunate- is because first of all, I fell into a world Then I just loved and I could continue, in that world for the next forty years, good time came from her. I came from a dairy farm, Wisconsin my mom died when I was eight, I was very motivated. All was to do well the good girl, and down and then from there, was fortunate to go right into technical position. Our three am than digital equipment and Sun Microsystems, then see you're about to ask and answer Yahoo in and frankly enjoy. That entire run talk for just a minute about whether

in the technology realm or the corporate leadership realm and we'll get into this more in detail for sure, but talk for just a minute how being a woman affected your career? If you, if you can kind of measure that input well, I was born to be a woman on and on fourchan, and let me tell you I first of all there, It was easier in the beginning, because not many full had computer science degrees and so They didn't care fewer rioting, you get a job, because they didn't understand what going on and they thought. Maybe you could help them. So I felt fortunate from that standpoint. Unfortunately, at that time I walked into a mass of typical bad man. Ah

that you read about today bad act and our but that in matter I I was a telephone, girl? So I don't let too much I get in there. you mean bad in a sexually harassing kind of way or an abscess is right. Yeah absolutely I mean my first job. It will actually my second job at when I was at three a dot m. The guys that I worked with, Carl because they didn't want their wives and oh, they were travelling with a female so that that course, wasn't harassing me. It was just a kind of an indicator. how the world was and you know ass time went on and I was able to move up Ah, I was fortunate enough to have some very good mentors

and leaders that believed in me and down, and I was ornery awe and I would speak my mind in fact something MR mind I was working company and I got a call, and by the Hr Vp who said girl. We don't want you to talk at executive staff anymore, and I don't want me, didn't hawk S, executive, when you don't want me to talk- and they said we do are you talk because we're sick of hearing what you have to say because you're always right- and I said well, wait a minute you because he goes listen. This is it you don't talk or you go so I thought ok. I got it. I don't talk so I went and I didn't I and talk about three four meetings in the ceo finally call me and said how come you're not saying anything.

Feels anything I don't know what's going on so I've gotten mixed messages. My whole, why none of those as ever, offered to like by your wisdom have you shut up, moving back pay for what you're gonna say, so they could take credit for it now may try their own trust me Many of them took credit for its one of these things are still happens, witches I'll, say something Then five minutes later they say the same thing, and now it's like the paupers, and it. But these days I saw I go wait a minute a you know what I just said- that. As I am old and tough enough now, then I don't take that stuff, I mean. Name a couple things about being ceo, that you really had no idea until you became a ceo well, I would say that, for thing and people won't talk about this lot, but it is a very lonely job. You don't-

there's really. no one. You can talk to about concerns in companies working for you unless you're trying to catch them on something I I'm just saying, but how you feel personally, The board is there and- Ah many times is least one or two board. Members that are pretty easy to confide in, but for the most part, you know they show up six times a year and awe and also its it's a little dangerous to talk about today's problem because they never forget it. And so you know the net keep asking well, how is such that's doing in your like, oh my god that was put to bed six months ago. I should never have said anything so the first thing as its it is lonely, I see. The second thing is

the power that Don't know you have so all you have to fight when I call Carol says so any in the organization we have to do. This has carelessly as will surely even know about it, so you get a lot of people speaking on your behalf, that I have no business doing it and no dictate to do that. So that's! A second thing! That's that's strange in, and you have to battle- the third reason is the enormity of the task. I remember one specific a moment and Autodesk we were trying to put a programme into the company called shared responsibility and that man

And we were telling teams that, no matter what level you rat, you have some responsibility and make all this work. It's not just. You can't just look up up up up and finding its carol that you also have a responsibility and so Hr Bp came in, and I said you know, I don't think shared responsibility is working because nothing you're just arguing about it. Nothing seems beginning dawn done, so I think we have to go back to command and control the military style, and he looked at me and he said o k Carol now, that means you're gonna have to always be right. And I said, oh, no, no, that's not gonna work will try to make sure these vice like himself.

here it's funny. It makes me wonder I mean just that idea makes me wonder why the actual notion of the ceo position is not challenged. Me or maybe this challenge more than I know, but we seem to have accepted you know. Look we have that the model of the presidency government right there is a person. There is a chief executive in an incorporations, their occasionally cases. We ve got Cosi user whatever using smaller firms, it seemed, but do you ever think it might be a good idea to take a new look at top leadership of a firm? You know as if you are starting from scratch and maybe you'd arrive at something other than a chief executive at the top. I think there has to be one place where the buck stops not negatively to corny, but

there has to be a team and if your chief executive, you are on a board and you find that your chief executive does not have a team that is working effectively. And when I say working effectively, I dont mean wheel and spoke where you have a ceo in a sealed accident Bp Engineering and see your talks, the BP marketing and then talk the baby, I'm tongue, but the engineering guy will talk to the bp marking without having to go through the ceo, so you have a very effective team that no, to gather their running the company, if you have that in the ceo believes that they dictate all the shots, then then its that's really bad mom.

and I had an you know: ports have to watch out for them, so we ve been a couple of their exit. Yos like Jack, Welsh and Re Valeo, both of whom made the point that speaking really candidly even bluntly to their employees, is not only the best way to do business, but the kindest waited do business in others. nothing worse than being lied. or deluded about where you stand from what I've read about you Carol. I gather you would put yourself in their camp as well, but I'm curious to know how you thought about dumb talking to employ these, whether you know just below you in rank or all the way down I am I happy rapidly. she's, good or bad that I do speak my mind and I have always felt that a fee I know where you stand and what use stand for then they can

a decision about what they think about that. For what they want to do. I always use example of a friend says: let's go to launch an ice Ok, great! Where do I go? Oh, I don't care. Ok, let's gonna get mixed all I had at last night Ah by Chinese. Now I really liked honeys and you sitting there saying you just you didn't hear, and so that to me, that's the absolute perfectly ample of obfuscation, I mean just tell people what you think and then you have a chance to discuss If you dont know, you'd device will talk to the wall, so you who took over as ceo of Yahoo in two thousand and nine the great recession was real. doing online. Add revenue was plunging. Google had been gobbling up, search business there. There was a sense that yeah, whose glory days were behind it. Also you

play some Jerry Yang and CEO one of its side when the founders of the company, how did you act the time? How did you weigh the pros and cons of taking over Yahoo? Ah movers gonna take him in order the great recession I have always had this belief that that it goes down and and then it goes down and comes up- you just don't know the the depth in the and the so it's sort of frequency and and at length. So was not only a concern for you per se the recession, and so I felt now I felt It was so bad. I didn't know aid in the form that it certainly was going to last, but that would give me time to sit under the the the shadow of the recession to get some things done,

I wouldn't be criticized because G everybody's in recession, so I view that as a pass, and Jerry actually personally courted me to take. Job I had known Jerry before and any personally push really hard for me to take it. job, so I wasn't worried about Jerry as a founder Third thing: was it just look like a fun problem? It really did it just it just looked like something that will be very, very interesting and when you say a fun power How would you define the problem? Well, as you already, Add I mean, add revenues all the lot, because the recession Yahoo had fought, for away behind insurgents unfortunate several reasons, but for had fallen way behind in search and

um and had lost. Can really losses confidence because the Microsoft take over attempt had just did when I, when I went in and the and the employees were just beaten. Because the cut in the company was concerned that cover and the board, especially which was. more correct. They were just beaten to death, and I really felt that I could help with that and dumb give us some air time to get back together in retrospect. Do you feel that it was to any degree free you a kind of suicide mission that there was no way it was gonna, be fixed. To your satisfaction, Ah, yes, I do now believe that, but I

it was for the raw is for the wrong reason. When I didn't understand correctly was the influence of Ali Baba and so, Oh, I didn't get the time to refresh the technology. Is there the one thing I who had unfortunately at hand I'm doing, was to release products, and so they know that the first with each basically the first with a big email, presents messaging. Groups, which is a social early, social media idea, GEO City. where things are in the world, so they had a. They were first in a lot of things like they were ripe with ideas. They would bring to market and then move on and never continue to stabilize. Surprise and so, when I got in there, I realized there were just a lot attack debt, as I called it that we handed to work on

and they would have been time for that, but Ali Alibaba was just such a big presents, hitting us constantly in that part. I totally missed you feel that there were there were signs that you should have antics. painted or could have, or did it really the Alibaba feud Krajina accelerate without me, no proper warning well the only way the only way that could have been solved Johnny Babo wanted us to sell their the shares back to them for, like less than ten dollars a share. and yet we own forty percent Priscilla And- and I mean I it should have been fired. If I'd had done that- and I fought so hard against that and fought and fought and fought directly with the alibaba,

management team that they were gonna, get me one where the other? coming up after the break Carol bars on the difference between male and Elsie Oaths don't believe a female ever hired a c o, especially from the outside world. Reasons that she was the number one pack. I think because their number one picks, wouldn't take the job, coming up right after this

Back now to our conversation with Carol Parts was ceo of Autodesk for fourteen years and Yahoo for a much shorter tenure. So let me ask you this. Some researchers, academic researchers talk about this cliff phenomenon that women are more likely to become ceos when a company is in trouble, for whatever reason is in trouble, men are more likely to become scenarios for stable companies. So in this research literature you Carol bars or sometimes held up as a classic example of being placed on and maybe shoved off of this glass cliff at Yahoo. What do you make of that characterisation? I will first of all, I would say, Autodesk was in trouble when I too,

moreover, and I didn't get shoved off shoved off any cliff, but Tom yeah, quite the contrary, but listen. It is absolutely true that women have a better chance to get a directorship or senior position. If there's trouble and I think there's a couple reasons: it's not it's mostly because of tat lots of times men don't want a job, and down so they they go for the two cheer one man on their list and they take a look and say I wouldn't touch out with anything and then they get the chair to man and by the time I guess it's easier to man. Some woman is falling popped up in their mind. and and she's so happy

that she has a chance right to have a senior position as a director or ceo that she takes it. But even if the circumstances are Prima facie sub, optimal, yeah yeah exactly and I mean- and I I think I think it is good that you take said. I have no problem with that, but it's not it's not that all the sun the board's wake up and say: oh there should be a female here. Ah there do that sometimes because it's easier hide behind well course, of course, at failed because of the female. What more could we have been thinking, but it's still up pretty nefarious way of of thinking. One theory is that boards will pick female leader.

when a companies in trouble in order to signal to investors that hey were really were really trying, something new and different here. Do you think that was part of the equation when ya, whose board hired you? Ah, why? I too think not, but probably I'd like to think. they hired me because they actually thought I was good Ah I mean you're different case too, and that your track record running Autodesk was pretty remarkable and that was known Pino, especially in the tapestry, let less so in the public sphere. Desgas Autodesk was not Such a public facing company, but do do you are again in retrospect, is I guess the easiest way to think about this? Do you think that the board. Saw you as wow? She is really the person who can turn surround or do you think the board saw you more as some kind of combination of well. Let's take the best. We can get consider

we're in trouble or let signal to the markets that we really know we ve gotta, make a change. Ah, listen, I believe if they had found what they consider the perfect male they would take. the perfect male. Ah, there's no doubt about that. I don't, I dont believe a female As ever hired a ceo, especially from the outside, for the reasons that she was, the absolute number one pick. I think it's because their number one picks wouldn't take the job. That's depressing is not what course is depressing. I mean even at this relatively late stage, two thousand and seventeen two thousand and eighteen Have you nor have you noticed that there is less females and in their fortune five hundred now than there were, I mean I, we have made no progress. we have made actually no progress, and why do you think that is because

all white man rule I had this. I had this interesting idea that I was so. hopeful that my daughter would go to college and and be with. Open minded young man, they all together in school and He got out. They all realised that they were equally smart. And you know off we go and things would change is exactly the opposite. They got out. The guy's got these jobs. I got a little money and they turned into o frat boys in in business as opposed to schools but I mean I really want you and understand the young man, our groomed by the

older man to run a thing and they they're not predisposed to treat a female any more than a female, not a business partner. Let me ask you this. think- that sexual harassment is in some ways related to the kind of inability to accept women as leaders or at least as equals in the corporate world, that there's something queen, men and women, whether in a corporate setting or or elsewhere? That just prevents man from seeing women essentially as co equals. Absolutely absolutely it's all about power, its power, and they have the money- they have the power and they have the colleagues that will support them. We're doing

it comes from other than you know. I guess that that the the basic desire for most people, or at least most men, to have more powers, it like a biological imperative, or do you think it's just the way that corporate structure has been built and maintained for so many years, I don't think things. Biological, I just think, is historical Ah, you know if it's, if, if we could just do up in quick change the world and slipped it around I believe women would be abusing. I think power abuses, and ass. We see, I mean I mean I am flabbergasted Bud so delighted that Harvey wine Sancho brought down in two weeks. That is I thought I'd see that my lifetime bud. I just think when people have

part. When the other money position power they abuse and not a hundred percent. I mean I wouldn't ever that that's ridiculous, but but much more so than people want what is also a well intentioned, fair credible wanting male incorporate in the corporate world to do or, first of all, if a female friend of theirs comes and says, something horrible, as happened to a supporter and believer and down and not turn his back and by the way I wanted are you. There are many males in the corporate world who are superstars. They are defenders of the females. You can pick em out of the crowd.

and they will be there for the women there just turn enough. What do you think should change in our systems? its family systems or educational or legal or corporate. That would improve that that would that would increase the number those people well, I think you first instead of increasing the number of those people, we have to Get the bad actors out and decrease the other one there exactly. And and and We get the actors, there are not enough the border to who say will that obviously didn't work out, back and be a nice guy, but it's the bad actors in its giving women the confidence that if they do find someone to talk to that they can get help. You know, given everything you're saying, I can't help but think that you as an observer from the outset

must have been particularly chagrined at what's been happening. Goober in the last couple years I mean not only was their behaviour in leadership that me no kind of gives fresh, Ours is a bad name. Even, but then the board came out and said you, oh, I think one we think one way to address this is to really work. Finally, a female ceo than of coarser three finalist were We're all male, what was your assessment of that scenario? Well, first of all that that was just those who just words us

the female ceo cuz, oh wow, that means that'll all get fixed all that all those years, six years of bad behavior. So that was a turn off to me. I think personally, they selected a great ceo though it looks like he's going to be very good, and it also looks like he's not going to take any You know he's I'd, let the bad actors hang around. I think they could of. They would have waited a long time too long Find a female seal that was senior enough to take their role and I hate say that cause? I should always say: oh well, obviously a female, but do There wasn't one in my mind, ready to jump into that

glee charged very visible role. I'm curious one, ceo, that we ve interviewed lately, who, I think, is so impressive on so many levels and sets a kind of standard. She happens to be female, but I think she set a standard for me currency is ingenuity at Pepsico on a few interacted much with her, but just curious some. You know she look that one of us for companies in the world she's been there a long time. She has done a lot of things that the board and the shareholders and activists initially recoil that, but she fought hard and smart and one I'm curious images I mean you know whether that is a kind of beacon of female leadership in and whether you think that kind of leadership might, however, have a substantial,

impact long term on the availability of females for leadership. Absolutely I mean any time we can put up some, unlike her hold her rob Ass an example of what females can do and in she did. She did things against de, I want to say advice, but against popular opinion, she's been very strong. You know the more of those we have, the better we all are bought. You know we ve gotta, look at the pipeline. The pipeline were stuck. Ah, you know you taught you we ve been spending some time trying but see yells. Let's talk about why we can't get senior vice presidents and you now end and that that's the problem. I mean so they're not likely to be picked over

into a different companies, a ceo of their sitting as a vice president, one company- and they're not likely to even get to be vice president of the company. So what we ve got a real were really stuck here. And again you ve been in business for a long time and in technology for long time. How would you compare you know the status of female leadership in the hopes for more now verses, let's say forty years ago, forty years ago promoted to be the sales manager. the team I was actually working within one of the guys came in, I'm just going to tell you that I'm not gonna work for any plug compatible boss, now many view technical people now. What like compatible means, but it means you have. One end and another end, and I said: fine but I'm not going anywhere.

And die. He made it very clear that he was. happy and was going to just sit there across his arms and pout, and I said I don't care what you do, but you got about three days to get our act together or get out of here. and down so I even had a low mocks if forty years ago, but tat you know we're not gonna go high in the corner, because somebody comes and says I don't like you, the glass cliff researchers found that if a company led by a woman continues to have trouble that she's off and replaced by a white male ceo returned to the status quo ante. What a concept did they pay but for that well, maybe they pay not for the name. This is called the Saviour effect. I guess it could have been the Messiah effect if they wonder really answer monies worth, but I'm so that

happen in your case at Yahoo was Scott Thomson, but, interestingly, he had to resign six months later because of he fluffed on his cv said that he had. I guess it was a computer, a computer scientifically that eight hundred science degree, which, interestingly you did, did half I was nine re clarify that you actually have they re completely iron. I actually agree university Wisconsin, but but then interestingly, the next person up then was Marisa, Meyer, ESA and Yahoo. Do you feel the dynamics of her appointment were similar to yours? There was the situation so different by then it was very different by then because they had. I had an activist I came on. I had Carl icon. They had an activist when Marisa came on and they

trying to get there. They were trying to get some Google magic spread on Facebook, and so she was an excellent candidate. I I don't think they had I dont think that its very odd I mean I, I agree. You're not gonna find another one of these wars of female male female. That's very, the usual. They were here He would tell you they wouldn't find another female four hundred years, because they were so burned plaza. Yes, very unusual, If he's gonna happen anywhere is gonna happen intact. So let me ask you this lotta of ceos, at least from my perspective, it I'm not in the business world. I just you know, follow it like any amateur, but a lot of ceo seem to want to be as an interesting. an unrevealing almost as inhuman as possible when at least when their speaking in any public or a clause I public setting. This, I should say, does not describe

you here, you are known always for being pretty unvarnished, but talk about those very Unrevealing ceos is that strategy is it per in reality or something else. I think they have bad advisers. They either? Have? I think, one of two things that either or an hour I'll say three things they either have out as a basic personnel. Two they ve been advised to be as benign as possible. ah or three. They are scared. And an eye I don't, I don't buy any of that. I think I think people want to know again where you stand where your company stands, what you stand for Where are you going and I mean one

things that I did in there in the early coffins calls at Yahoo, which you know later coursing it criticised for anything, but I just tried to stand up for the people, because they they were so beaten down from this Microsoft deal that all all the endless one ask me buys why we didn't do Microsoft. I was even there. and would you have done Microsoft and- and I said let's get: let's back to what we're doing now? Not what happened last year and give these give a Yahoo people some some chance to breathe and I really want, after all, damn started our long love affair at Bellevue, gone after them if you're very same words in the very same tone happened to have been attached to a male human right. How do you think that position your position of trying to buy that breathing space would have been wrong?

by the endless. So I think we have been received great and I'm not I'm positive not hiding behind any all poor Carol, I'm just saying they just don't like it of all the ceos who talk sometimes but say not very much. I think one example really interesting example for a lot of different reasons. As Mark Zuckerberg, it's not enough. You ve interacted with him much, but I'm curious what you think of his speaking style. He he does big publicly more more, although in in circumstances that are a typical foresee egos, and yet it is a different kind of ceo speak. Then I've heard before I'm curious what you're take on continents.

ah mark. Is it extremely smart guy, and so he has chosen to be the ceo of intellect so these are the twelve boxing. Then read these year this year, the he's. Ard. I'm gonna visit in our every state this year. I'm going to build a robot this year, it's like. Well, ok, that's fine but I think if you look at that, What's happening right now, with the testimonies on political adds? Ah, that's gonna have to change. And I mean it you didn't have to. He was a golden boy. You didn't have to talk about real things awe and besides the companies doing great. I mean the real things: are you no real Athens

Oh so it allowed him to try to get this other persona with mind actually not be good, going forward for awhile name a couple com. Ceo that you really admire and why Ah I admire Chuck Robin said it. Cisco, wee wee Wee replaced John Chambers, who was the eel. I greatly admired. I hate to say this, because it's because you just died but followed? Alenia was one of the best man I ever knew, as far As being And of females, tough guy, nice guy and very qualified- and I saw I'm just gonna given that shot out, even though it is not with us. Let me ask about,

in your former orbit, what about sucking Adela coming into Microsoft, making a lot of yes, absolutely absolutely brilliant and brilliant, because why. You know brilliant, because he move fast. He was willing to break glass He obviously knew what to do, and I think I mean he did the unthinkable. he actually has Microsoft back in the picture. I mean. I I have a lot of time for him and an he's a nice guy mischievous one, big change, that he made consciously and now that's being carried out strategically. That Microsoft is back in the partner and collaboration businesses, which basically they never out of, but you know that in the early years eight they did a lot more of that an end it I'm just curious weather.

You know trying to be the big dog in any fight which maker was for a while, if you think that is kind of a more male ceo trait in the idea of reaching across different isles and trying to form different partnerships and being more collaborative is a trade that is not enough more female, I'm not saying that such necessarily has more female traits in the average mail. But if that's school of thought about me no success and growth visa collaboration partnership as opposed to him, just massive dominance might be one of the areas in which old school ceos- are you now bad and new school ceos, including potentially female ones, might be better, there is no doubt about that. I mean you, you can take it out of a corporation, the corporate world for a minute And you can look at arm,

school boards. You can look at a lot of places where this contention and it's the female consider bringing people back together. Ah, so I think that in the Good NEWS is in a corporation to accomplish this, it doesn't have to be. It can only be the seal. It has to be that way. Tenants and again the more lieutenant set, our female, the more they will actually really partner. Microsoft always said they were partner, but the trying to find out that didn't work, because each each group would say fine, I don't care if that group is partnering with you, but on your cock, competition so get out of here and nobody, nobody could stand it at the top and say you know, make this work play and I think so. I think the more the more that this females involved in either

the deal's or the arm resolving the conflicts that things are worse than they do. Or better. I think females are better collaborators so when you were a three days after you're fired by Yahoo, you told Fortune magazine that the young who board were quote do faces? And you said that these people me over wide I mean Your known for being straightforward, but that was a little bit more straightforward. The most people are accustomed Y Y, you go so you know honest or ballistic at that moment, I was in a limo. driving into the city New York City. When I got a call from Roy Boss Stock, the chairman of the board and tell me I was fired I was literally twenty minutes away, from where he was physically located

There was another board member in New York that had volunteered to to work with with right, double team. To tell me why this fire he didn't have the nerve to see me face to face. I do not believe that that would have happened to man he D. have the nerve. Now I like to think You didn't have the nerve because he he knew, I would probably punch and was right might be right. I don't I doubt that board was so beat up by the time I got there because it again the Microsoft stuff in Karl

guy listen, I love Carl Icon and I bet if you called Carl he he would tell you he likes me. I spent so much time the first seven months on the phone with Carl and his two board placement than to be really also got on the board, and actually work that deal for the company. Everything is going swimmingly. We get in a little problem with Alibaba and they start making stank and the board starts getting scared. And they got scared and they didn't wanna be considered the worst sport in the in the world again and they thought well that we do not do this will just Carroll and down you know, hey, probably lucky Luckily there I don't take it Those words back now

your stand. Mama, I'm curious enough. This is true. I understand the interview reportedly cost you about ten million dollars for having violated disparagement clause near contracted. Is that true mean that F word was ten million dollars, I don't think so! No did you did you have to what did you have to pay back anything from them I meant for having disparage the board, though publicly No all those little man just ran in the corner, so It was worth it was worth it. I guess, if you did after pay, I gather was worth it at all was worth it Am I what you weren't stand by? What your words are done You know. Why should I Sugar coated. That say, oh I'm, I have to go, spend some time my family now because you know, I mean I was working the whole time my daughter was, was growing up and now she's out again

Adjustments are time, other Carol bards. This was a blast am I can't thank you enough, and I wish you the best stir best in everything panky. It was fine, we'll see. And even gets on the radio in next week, special episode, you'll hear my full conversation with Mark Zuckerberg Facebook Wide ever started to build accompanying. Also, please keep your ears out for our regular for economics. Radio episodes which hit your podcast stream promptly at eleven p, eastern time on Wednesday thanks listening, Reaganomics radio is produced by W. In my c studios and W productions are, staff includes Allison Hockenberry Gregg results be Stephanie. Tam MAX Miller Merit Jacob

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