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they really want to complain, and all you want to do is surround them in a jig of joy? That's exactly what I did last night, so you're saying that was a bad thing, your the thing to know stupid questions, the pot gas that explores the weird and occasionally wonderful ways in which humans behave period? Hosts Stephen Dubner and Angela Duckworth. Angela question here from a listener named Christina actuates say, as we all know, there are those who see the glass is half empty and those who see the glass is half full there There are those like me who see it not only as half full but has reason to celebrate. I wake up most mornings, happy and honestly, kind of excited about my day. I've just I'm going to want to hear of Christina is really Angela, Duckworth

who's gonna say girlfriend. Let's I absolutely identify whether completely Christina can NEWS. I am familiar with the idea that most people have a set range for their resting state of happiness to which they eventually return almost regardless of what life events before them and I've come believe that I'm just blessed with a very high level. It's not like nothing, better happened to me? I am a bit age woman I've gone through the deaths of those. I love divorces, tough, financial times, etc. Especially now in my more mature years, I always seem to return to a place of joy. Until recently, I figured I'd just one the lottery in this respect I mean, isn't feeling good a natural goal of being human

motivates and sustains and allows us to direct goodwill towards others too. However, she writes you knew. There was a, however there's gonna be a but there's gotta be everybody's got a big, but as they like to say that, however, the other day Christina rights, I came across the idea of toxic positivity and was quite taken aback. Is it possible to have too much optimism enjoy in my life, you can just feel the air going out of Christine is bound seed, enjoy balloon so in I may be bringing this question to the wrong person, because you are a proponent of what is literally called positive psychology, but I'll ask any way: is it possible to have too much positivity

Christiana she's gonna belts, right back, no matter what we say by the way, but you want a smack or down for a minute Stephen you'd be the one to reign on this praise I would just like let's get more streamers is amazing and we can reach a little bit on this, but I do believe it's great to be a happy and optimistic person that there is a condition called Paypal mania, correct, which I assume is too much and happiness. What, coincidentally, I've been talking about hypo mania a lot with Marty, Alex men in this proceeds getting a letter from Christina about her own levels of joy and optimism, Marty, again. My phd advised and no world renowned psychologists has come too the tentative hypothesis that history is changed for the better by the hypo manic. So what hypo mania seamen you for it media? Right as in manic depression, even I have heard of mania even here. Well, this extreme. form of happiness when

reaches what clinical how does it is like a pathological level of happiness is not feeling like you're on top of the world, but unfortunately- and this is why therapists think it's dysfunctional is that you are- you know talking without stop in a way. People can't follow you. You have no need to sleep and therefore you don't sleep. You are also- and this may be the worst part of being in a manic episode. You are also taking ridiculous risks. Basically, it's a complete lack of impulse control. You decide that it would be really good idea to take your clothes often run around the block and see what that's like an you. Would just do it and that's what an extra manic episode is by the way, mania tends to cycle in a out with the opposite depression. That's the origin of the term by polar manic, depression, pow, meaning less then or low levels. Caple mania is

lower milder form of this state of joy and What Marty's, especially interested in, is stable, hypo mania, so not just one month stay DORA. Two months month, stapled just disposition Lee being high and gee. So you are sleeping, but maybe not is what is most people and cheerful an optimistic and all the rest. So before we go forward with Christine as concerns about toxic positivity, I want to go back to a couple. Things at Christina wrote that I found it. Thing she wrote unfamiliar with the idea that most people have a set range for their resting state of happiness to which they eventually return almost regardless of what life events befall them is that True, that is true. There is this kind of centre. Gravel to our mood states. However, it's a centre, I believe that can shift. So, if you think your childhood, in your like. You know why I always was a little bit of a melancholy kid

doesn't mean that you're going to have the same centre of in terms of your mood states as you. VON and, as things happen to you so yeah, There is some equilibrium we return to, but that equilibrium itself can change. Ok, so Christine is correct, largely in that, payment here's another one though I just want to run past you, she wrote, isn't feeling good a natural goal of being human. I think it's a nice idea, but do you agree that that's unnatural from a cycle general perspective. At least. I think she actually is more right than wrong there, every language, in the world and every history in every philosophy in every religion has talked about happiness, opposite despair, so the universality of this is, I think, indicative of the fact that we all know what it's like to feel. good and we all know it's like to feel bad, and all of us would like to feel good more than we feel bad. I remain having conversation with den economy in the Nobel Laureate about

optimism Madam unhappiness and he said that if there were a few godmother that only grids you one wish for Europe, newborn child is absent, you would ask for optimism joy right and those aren't exactly the same thing, but their highly correlated and their very causal interrelated, and I think this idea of being somebody who you know The glass is half full and it is for something I like and what's in your glass, I'm sure it's great, I think over the reason why we want that for our children. And for ourselves is that is the end in itself. Many philosophers have said that the pursuit of Human action is happiness, so if indeed it is human to seek out happiness, we get to Christine is dilemma, and what I find interesting about her question is: this underlying assumption. That sounds close to guilt as if her quote toxic positivity.

Is necessarily numbing or blinding her to the real concerns of the day. So I guess the first question would be can't you have both I've learned from my friend Angelo is instead of either or both and Really good option both Anders was the right option. You know Christina talks about going through the, deaths of those she loves? Divorces, plural. I noted tough financial times. It's not that she's being pollyanna life and nothing terrible happen store, I'm guessing. She knows what it's like to feel sadness, grief, loss in charity jealousy anxiety. Worry your Bremen me out to sing of not I'm serious. Really. I feel my shoulders lumping or you know, hunting I'm doing both so brought down by that list. Hunting slumping both, and I think that it is not only universal to seek good days or not

days. It's not only universal. To want to be happy and want to be unhappy less. It is so universal to experience positive and negative emotion- and here is actually a fund fact from the scientists. Literature that was really get us king when it debuted Butte few decades ago, which is that for a long time, psychologist thought that unhappiness and happiness were almost ass. The photo naked of each other, like if you're on maybe you're not happy, but it turns out the correlation between P sort of emotions, negative emotions is only negative point three, in other words, if it works, truly the case. That being happy was simply the opposite of being unhappy. You would actually be correlation of negative one and what this suggests is there Human beings are fully capable of feeling maybe even in the same moment, some happy emotions someday emotions mixed emotions, but one thing that

Christina noted. Is that not only does she seemed to experience more positive than negative, so she's, a centre of gravity more in these positive mood states these negative, but she also said something about a lot of stability around that Ray and when we study this scientifically, we not only want to know the centre of gravity Somebody's mood stayed, but also how much variation is there and what we find with people who are what we would call neurotic is that you have ruler poster emotions. You have a lot of very ability around that mean ends what I am hearing from Christina in her letter. Is that she's got hi mood, no gravity and she hovers around their priests, ably, I will say, Christine's email did make me examined my own state of poverty. Seventy. Now? What about you? Stephen? So here's the thing about Christine his question. I do love encountering ideas that literally make you stop and think, and this one did it made me reflect on some of the work

been doing Unfrequent ex radio. The last couple years about negativity about the power bad, for instance, this psychological notion that bad Things have more salience than good things. We did another recently on the power of negative media, which contributes to all sorts of problems and personal end additional levels. So I guess I have been paying attention to negativity and pessimism and judging it to be potentially harmful I do feel I've got a positive disposition. Personally, maybe not quite as positive as Christina. Are you but overall quite positive? I have few friends who I stereo tape- is yours, basically, and if I'm given the choice, between seeing them one evening in staying in reading a book. I'm stay in and read the book because I dont want to swim in that the for a whole night in a life's to shore and too hard. Why make,

her than it already is, but Christine as a male did make me think about the potential downsides to this pursuit of happiness and perhaps stated what she calls toxic positively There's some literature, including by a colleague of yours, Maurice Schweitzer, same department maiden, who has written about the notion of happiness being associated with naive, attain right here. I know: there's also research that shows that in a competitive positivity, or a willingness to collaborate, can be seen as a sign of weakness. You can see in the business fear being positive might come across as something that could be exploited. I think another fears that, if you seem too happy, talks we happy it may be an indication to others that you are low on empathy and I believe there is psychological research about that is well Jim, Gruber June, Gruber. Precisely so all of these checks on my

happiness. Do lead me to wonder if, indeed, Christina is barking up just the right time. On the other hand, if you do have the quote problem of being very, very happy- and you bring a little bit more either empathy or concern into your life. Certainly, there is for everyone, no matter which side of the scale your starting on a golden mean, isn't that the real pursue not to be be all the time, but to find that golden mean where you can enjoy your life while acknowledging than on any given day. There is believable cruelty and genocide and other bad things, so I'm gonna side that for a moment. The question of the golden mean of happiness, the ideal number on a scale from zero to ten. Maybe it's not ten. Is it eight about nine hundred aside set for a moment and just say what is going on with the position. We happy people. You say that,

The tone as if you don't understand, what's going on with these people. These people, who are just like me, while I have to say but I have some familiarity with June groupers Research M worrisome, their colleagues and friends, and I also have intrinsic interest in this. What's going on with the disposition me happy people who may be perceived by others to be naive and who might be sometimes insensitive to people who are not in a very good mood at the time at the comes down to attention what it is to be. It specifically optimistic a happy person at the core is to have a kind of bias pay attention to the good side like work. The glass is half full its equally through to say that the glass is half empty, but a disposition. The optimistic and joyful person has this attention all bias, that explain,

than I ever de finding from Mary Schweitzer, it's like hey they're, looking over here, while there looking at the glass being have full. We can exploit this blindness that they have. Too seldom a horse. This is also why it's been shown that people the happier on average as we get older until close to the end. Until close to the but well into your healthy, older adulthood, reliably find that adults are happier they were when they were younger. Now, why Laura Carson's research at Stanford would suggest that, It's because older adults tend to selectively look at the pretty picture and not the ugly picture, so I think that this attention all engine, that's always filtering out our reality and then pushing our feelings around in our thoughts, attention is the gatekeeper for everything. I think that's what's really going on, and so then, when you asked me well, what's the golden Mean agree. It surely cannot be the autumn alive to ignore it

Quality DAS, sadness laws. We don't want to be that person, even if we could be ten out of ten unhappiness, because there is something other than happiness but character, but having a till two in our. do not forget to sort of look all around see the glass half full seed half empty, but then preferring to focus very tough, for I think that's pretty defensible come on no stupid questions. Stephen an no wonder whether the U S is disproportionately optimistic, and if so, why am I admit that what appears to them to be good today may be superseded by something better tomorrow. That's coming up on this special episode of no stupid questions from the freak economics, radio network for Economics, radio sponsored by future. What the best work out programme, the one that is custom bill. Just for you future is the

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before we returned to Stephen and Angela's conversation about toxic positivity. Let's hear some of your thoughts on the topic. We told listeners to treat us their views on the benefits and detriment of a positive mindset, a listener with the twitter handle at the term alone rights. When someone complains about a problem, toxic positive people say things like: don't worry about it, you gotta stay positive or you just have to push

RO try harder, which only invalidates the person's concerns and makes them feel worse at hinder, Kevin's and rights, my wife is an optimist which has great, except when she's backing out of parking spots, because she's convince she's not going to back into the wall or a shopping, cart or another car optimists have higher insurance rates. Hendrick happens in your observations are acute. Research from the Journal of Accident, analysis and prevention concludes that existence of robust optimism appears to be related to an exaggerated sense of control. which can decrease the probability of appropriate anticipatory avoidance responses, a k, a checking to see if there's a shopping, cart behind you before backing out of a parking space and finally, at twist rights, expect the best prepared for the worst it's more work,

then having blind faith that everything will work out or absolute defeatism that it's not worth bothering it's a blend of the better part of each. Let's call it optimism wise words, twist wise words if you'd, like your thoughts to appear on an upcoming, show, follow our twitter account at an askew show now back to Stephen and Angela and their conversation about whether its damaging to live a life. Where you constantly see the glass as a full one. Could imagine that the choice it is even larger than its half full or half empty. It could be that Chris, You or you or maybe even me on a good day, could say Not only is the glass half full, but I should find another glass cause. I've got so much happiness, I'm gonna feel up to it so much we're looking at the same picture, we're seeing slightly different versions of airlines me of this book by Barbara Errand raked. The journalist whose most well known

buckled, nickel and dime, which was an amazing piece of reporting about low wage work in American, this is probably fifteen or twenty years ago. So is quite preaching, but she wrote another book called bright cited, which is I'm blind cited and it came about because she'd been diagnosed with breast cancer. she was suddenly being assaulted, with all these optimistic and in operational messages about you, know, keep your head up. Everything's gonna be ok and she was more like hey shut up. I got cancer here. The book was a knock down of America's love affair with positive thinking, and it's a bit of a knock down of the kind of work that you do: and very explicitly positive psychology, but I definitely empathize with that view, and I definitely empathize with the idea that, if someone is going around being happy all the time

It would be very easy to say you know when people are happy end, their relatively successful in their lives And look: let's not lie you and I we both had a lot of good things happen in our lives. We ve had good health. We ve had good education. We enjoy our work. We families that we love and maybe even love us back, sometimes and cycling. It's very easy from the outside to say, of course, you're happy. You ve got those things working. So what do you say to that argument? That happiness is a privilege. I think that an excellent point, but as many philosophy, I have pointed out, you do not have to be a rich person to control where you pay attention, it's not to negate that some people just have worse lives, objectively speaking, but I think it the same I'm both ends. Stephen right. The aftermath of the road not to be like hanging out on their couches. Just staring wistfully into their half filled glasses. There starting nonprofits and becoming teachers and so forth. I really do think

both I and you can acknowledge that there are objective. Disagree judges and also say I'm gonna. Look at the good side to you, one, a little data on optimism, verses, pessimism in America? Absolutely, yes, please! This is from a two thousand there too in survey by Time magazine of around eight hundred people. So let's say it's not particularly scientific, but anyway the question was: do you consider yourself an optimist or pessimists give any guesses. Before I give you the numbers, I'm going to say, that ninety percent of people consider themselves optimists, good God, you're optimistic, bout, the optimism survey- I should also say you could answer somewhere in between there's, also don't know or refused if somebody refused out put them down as a pessimist. Personally, exactly again, let's just acknowledged this is extremely unscientific. According to this pole, fifty percent said they were optimists. Forty three percent said there somewhere in between

only four percent said their pessimists fifty to force its ten to one fifth data for a that's about the same as my estimate of ninety percent. By the way. No, that shocks me. What did you think? I think maybe I'm hanging, with the wrong crowd, because I know a lot of pessimists trenches, we ve been doing a lot of episodes on for economic treated this last year, a Bow America Baino. I came this conclusion over the course of men. years of reporting in writing that whenever we would look at a policy, idea or solution for whatever it is universal child care, the way healthcare is paid for and so on. These Lucian almost always was well just copy the danish model, copy, the Hong Kong model or whatever, and when you start to look at how you can try to overlay solution like that, the answer was usually you can't because we're just to differ and when you look at the U S on many many dimensions, culture, history, politics, etc, or just a major out. higher along those lines. I do

wonder if we are an outlier as optimists is well I'd like to read you a cop, sentences from democracy in America, Alexis Tocqueville, mine, bogglingly, interesting book, written the eighteen thirties. From the perspective of a french visitor, he wrote they, Americans have a lively faith in the perfectibility of man. They all consider society. As a body in a state of improvement, humanity as a changing scene in which nothing is or ought to be permanent, and they admit that what appears to them to be good today may be superseded by something better tomorrow. So it really does make me wonder if what you- and I are talking about now is really not optimism in the human but optimism in the american human. It's an excellent question, dont know the answer. I'm guessing there have to be national differences in

optimism. We know for sure that there are international differences in happiness because for some years now there are these annual happiness. Poles happen around the world and you can find out things like done. In Finland or especially happy places, though one that's cool, to mine that I remember teaching was the Togo was the least happy country on the plane So we know happiness varies national culture. My guess is that optimism would too may be more pronounced in the United States. Benjamin Franklin, he had this parable of. handsome and deformed leg? Have you heard of this parable? So you know Ben Franklin, him I've heard of capitals here to say I'm Penza, we quote Ben Franklin Alive so again read to you this little story. Frankly, speaking about pessimists. You're, an old philosophical friend of mine was grow

from experience and carefully avoided any intimacy with such people, he had like other philosophers of monitor to show him the heat of the weather to mark when it was likely to prove good or bad, but there being no instrument, invented to discover at first sight this unpleasing disposition and a person that of being a pessimist. He for that purpose, made use of his legs, one of which was remarkably handsome the other by some accident. Crooked and deformed. If industry at the first interview regarded his ugly leg more than his handsome one. He doubted him if he spoke and took no notice of the handsome leg. That was a fish to determine my philosopher to have no farther acquaintance with him. Everybody has not. This two legged instrument, but everywhere and with a little attention, may observe signs of that carping fault. Finding disposition

and take the same resolution of avoiding the acquaintance of those infected with it. I therefore advise those critical querulous discontented unhappy people that, if they wish to be respected, and be loved by others and happy in themselves. They should leave off looking at the ugly leg I'll stop, thereby obvious this is Ben Franklin well before June, groupers and white source research. Saying that I think what's going on here is attention- and you know these famously a founder of this country, and perhaps now only somebody who shaped our culture, but also the fact that we keep quoting him and keep his power bulls alive, maybe it is a sort of particularly american, I won't say uniquely american, but may be particularly optimistic american bias. I imagine one other large reason why America, maybe more optimistic than many other countries,

which is it. We have overall, very strong religious belief in this country and very strong belief in an afterlife I mean, if you want to think about the ultimate example of a happy ending that that's what Heaven is and if you want to think about a reason to be optimistic, it would be the belief that your ending will be good will be better than now. So I wouldn't shocked if America is indeed near the top of the optimism scale, if its related in some significant measure, to that wide belief in Heaven: name I know you have religious tradition, that emphasizes that things will ultimately be very good, but also maybe itself a product of a biased to want to see that kind of thing it. Hence the difficulty of studying culture right. It's very hard to do this scientifically. What you're saying now relates back,

What Franklin is suggesting Franklin was essentially saying smile and you will feel happy and now you're saying that if you tell yourself a certain kind of stuff hurry it may make you feel happier optimistic, but it may not have a basis in the reality, but at the end of the day it doesn't matter. I think there could be virtual cycles here where the causal arrows go every which way. Maybe when you're a happy person like Franklin, maybe Christina, are saying people are attracted to with our drawn to you. Maybe if you have people drawn to you, you have even more reason to be happy there already virtuous cycles and there's a lot of very good data now on the causal influence of happiness on future outcomes, so we do know least that the calls are always go from happiness to, for example, doing better work and, if you're doing better work, you can just imagine and does research on this too. That makes you happy, or so this upward spiral is real, but when you go back to Christina is

worry: can you be too optimistic and get toxic? If we go back to his attention hypothesis that even Franklin had centuries ago, if you ignoring other people's pain, if you are ignoring the group, the end of privilege, if you are kind of on that, I guess, for example, a roommate home and have just had a day They really want to complain, and all you want to do is surround them in a jig of joy. That can be bad. That's exactly what did last night. So you're saying that was a bad thing, but look both air right. It's both possible to have a high centre of gravity. when it comes to positive emotion and to be pretty, table around man, and I think it's past to allow your intentional fields. Fields encompass these other things, so

in other words, die hard optimists. Constant optimists should understand that there may be occasions where, even if you don't feel it, you should tone it down a little bit for the sake of others, and that pessimists should maybe jack it up a little bit, because it's a free pass towards improving it outcomes- is that the advice I'm gonna give the advice my way, which is that, rather than thinking about toning down you're hey in your voice and trying to get to something which is gonna, be good for everyone. I wanna actually Gus on attention. I think that if you diagnose yourself as I guess, move Americans apparently do as an optimist. Then you might want to make sure your at least noticing, when the glass is half full and for the glass is half full and who doesn't have a glass at all and was two glasses, so just

tension wise, make sure you're not neglecting a part of the bigger picture, even if you're going to go back to the good parts. That's my recommendation for optimists. My recommendation for pessimism is again noticed your attention. What part of the picture you obsessed Lee dwelling on? Have you failed to notice that the glass is half full, have failed to notice other things that might actually improve your mood and I would also draw the attention of the optimists and the pessimists listening here, too the reality of these cycles, because I really do believe there are virtuous and vicious cycles and being unhappy- it being negative and always being hypercritical etc? Can really be a spiral downward? If you do painter- Did I you could say like hey look over here? Is this virtuous upwards by acting under join that one? Has this conversation about the possibility of too much?

Ms M doomed, your own optimism, even one, what not even half a lot but no stupid questions is produced by me, Rebecca leave that less and now here's a fact check of today's conversation. Angela describes pathological mania as a symptom of Bible, disorder, and she notes that during manic episodes, a person may have no need to sleep and could lose all impulse control. This sort of episode is generally tie. to bipolar one disorder, although individuals with this illness may not experience these exact symptoms, less severe hypo manic episodes are common with bipolar to disorder. Paypal, manic, episodes and periods of depression are also us, shaded with cycle of dynamic disorder, willing to more information in the show notes at free economic start, com, also Angelo recalls that Togo was at one point, the least happy country on the planet in twenty four

teen, the west african nation, indeed ranked dead last one hundred and fifty Eightth out of all one hundred and fifty eight, freeze, measured and the World Happiness report which uses data from the Gallop world pole and the world risk pole. However, in the twenty twenty one report, Togo ranked one hundred and Thirty, six. The change may be attributed to a steady drop in infant mortality and an increased number children receiving education! Afghanistan is currently ranked as the least happy country in the world with Zimbabwe bright above it. The happiest country in the world, as Angela suggested, is Finland, with Denmark as a close. Second, the United States are numbered nineteen on the list, a slight drop from its rank as number fifteen and twenty four

report finally Stephen surmises that the United States may be one of the most optimistic countries in the world. According to a twenty twenty survey from market research, firm episodes. This is true. Americans ranked fifth out of twenty eight participating countries when it came to optimism about their nations Future China was ranked as the most optimistic country and ITALY was ranked as the most pessimistic country, that's for them, check hello again for economics, radio listeners. I hope you enjoy this special episode of our spin off park as new stupid questions, where Angela Duckworth and hold conversations every week about happiness. Cognition and all the weird and wonderful ways humans behave. You can get new stupid question, every get your pack. If you are now to the show their eighty episodes waiting for you? If you would like to submit

and to Angela me right to and ask at free cannot accept, come come. We have left I'm on free connivance radio, are you the kind of person who knocks on wood to prevent bad luck? Do you refuse to clink the glass of someone who's drinking, just water. Perhaps you even believe in the sweater, curse it irrational, and yet it's very popular many people are superstitious, probably where then admit to it before he left entirely considered this. The bracing of superstition at the official courtroom level is totally rejected. The american legal system galaxies history and yes, economics of curses, that's next time and for economic radio until then take care of yourself, and if you can someone else to no stupid question,

and for economics, radio part of the frequent mix radio network, which also includes people I mostly admire and frequent mix MD, all our shows are produced by stitches in member radio. This episode was mixed by Eleanor Osborne. Our staff also includes our Craig Low Gregg Ribbon Zack Weapon, Ski Ryan, Kelly, marriage Duke Jasmine, cleaner material, Lyric, Bowditch and Jacob Clemente, no stupid questions, themes is an she wise by talking heads special thanks to David Byrne and worn a chaplain music? If you want read the show notes were transcript, go to freak alarmist duck, as always, thanks felicity, I'm ready when you yes go? U s question. I know you're asking me the question: are you the mixed radio network, the head inside of everything

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