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Follow and listen to vibe jack. Wherever you get your podcast. John you'll is an actor who lives in kirkaldy scotland. If you watch a lot of bread, tv dramas, you may have seen him playing a doktor or tell manager a police sergeant, but lately he's been moving away from acting I've written to play I writing another one. One of those to play is about Andrew Carnegie, who made his fortune in amerika grew up nearby in done firm and the other play called. The invisible hand is about Adam smith, who is often called the founder of modern economics He grew up just down the street from where John you'll lives this from here. We thought there was a story in it. because it doesn't do enough to perpetuate the greatness of Adam smith, that is changing

party is preparing to celebrate the three hundred then averse, three of atoms birth, the church where he was baptized, is being restored. There are plans for a museum and cultural centre. John. You all doesn't blame his neighbors for not caring enough thou, Adam Smith. He didn't really here either until he started working on his play always aware of Adam smith, but not entirely of his legend of his country. To economic, really unto philosophy. I knew about it, but as most people, you would find actually don't know, do they know about the wealth of nations, and they know that Margaret thatcher, the enemy, always had a copy of wealth of nations. The legend goes in her hand. Bag saw

that's worth looking into. You say the legend goes that thatcher carried Adam smith around in her hand bag. What do you think? What I think is that, yes, she did read some of Adam Smith. She didn't read the first book the theory of moral sentiments clearly, but she read the second one and she did use that as an authority to promote her economic theories and that is and policies, and she caused so much misery in this country, not to everybody, but to love. People. As for John, you calling Margaret thatcher the enemy, we're gonna, look fight for now it isn't that, legacy were debating here. It's Adam smith, over the first two episode of the series we have spoken with: economists, philosophers, political scientists and others

smith's ideas and how they ve been interpreted and misinterpreted over the years. So today, on freedoms, radio in the third and final episode of our series on the real Adam smith, we want to know what what, truly smithy an economy, look like today, their kind. Capitalism that we have now is not something smith could have imagined, moved on since the eighteenth century. Unfortunately, but have we moved on so much from the eighteenth century. Most of the economic recession sensitive checks to, whereas he often puts it. Extorted the legislator by rich companies. Also, what kind of life lessons can Adam Smith still teach today. He is so infuriatingly balanced. Our journey, to find the real Adam smith had to end sometime. Sadly, that's today, but hold our tears till the end. The final epochs begins. Now

I'm hoping the This is really ex radio the podcast, but explores the hidden side of everything with your host in the in Adam Smith day the residents of kirkaldy mind coal. In harvested salt, later they made canvassing linoleum kirkaldy was a thriving market town day their mostly service jobs, most which dont pay very well john you'll has had seventy years to observe the shift in the local economy, my father, a business here

William Yolande sandwich was a well established, grossly business. So he was you know steeped in Jakarta. He was from here. The road bridge changed everything. The road bridge which crosses the river forth was built in nineteen. Sixty four, the bridge made it much easier to get from edinburgh up into fife the county, where kirkaldy is located, but that was really pushed her business by the supermarkets coming in to the town, they got over. The bridge, then, is to have to go round their interest too often stores tesco at open stores. Here, so small, a substantial grocer who thinks that followed the county and local hotel everything he was just pushed out of the way. What do you think Adam Smith would say too that story? I think he would think it was progressing.

Really, things do always evolve and change, and you can't hold back progress. I dont like supermarkets. I think they ve learned so much of our communities, but nonetheless that seen programme when Adam smith was writing the wealth of nations in the mid eighteenth century, it wasn't supermarkets. He was worried about it, was trading firms like the english east, india company, which grew so massive that it began. Acting like a sovereign as Psmith put it here is a passage from the wealth of nations read by John you. Well, they were traitors. Only they manage their trade successfully and were able to pay from their profits are moderate dividend to the proprietors of the stock.

since they became sovereigns without ever knew, which, it is said, was originally more than three million standing. They have been obliged to beg extra ordinary assistance of government in order to avoid immediate bankrupt Smith was concerned that companies like this were essentially too big to fail That may be ring a few bells it does. This scholar and a tall and I'm lecturer, or as this and professor and global economy at the university of Glasgow, ok and glue Will economy means what here I am a political scientist, but I study the economy. A tall is writing a book with the working title. When companies rule corporate power,

from the east, india company to silicon valley. There is quite a bit of Adam smith in it says: psmith appears in my book in two principal places, there's a first chapter. Why talk about these senior company as a case and then there's a chapter, that's about amazon as an employer and the way that it governs labour and exerts a lot of influence in the towns, or it sets up its big labour operations. Let's start with the east india company This takes us back to the early seventeenth century, so there's a first curve of globalization that is associated with the corporate period of him realism where european countries are giving a charter we met a licence to some investors who would like to create a company this, new level of commerce was happening throughout Europe. So in england, we're talking about the english east india company, which was chartered by criminals within sixty one

in the netherlands, we're talking about the dutch east india company, and then there are smaller ones that our chartered by the french and by the portuguese, the english east, india, but he had a charter that allowed it to trade on the indian sub continent and in south east asia, and what the charter says is this come he's the only english company that it's gonna be allowed to trade in these regions. So it's a monopoly that protects it from other english merchants going out and trading there so are protected Please, and what share of the revenues are profits would flow directly back to that Under this agreement, it's a small amount, its tax, like ordinary taxation. Intention was to go and open a spice trading business to compete with the dutch who were running a very lucrative spice trade. England is just really beginning the think about building an empire of its on its beginning to feel like it has a strong navy and it could be starting a life as a colonial power, but is not in a position to be running its on colonies as

government yet, and so she charters this company as it turned out. The english east. India company did not confine itself to the spice trade nor to east india at its peak, which was around the mid eighteenth century when Adam smith was writing the wealth of nations, the east india, company controlled way. You won't take a guess. What share of global trade? Would you say this one company controlled at its peak if controlled. Fifty percent of global trade at its peak is what I can to again. Let me ask you this Let's imagine that there was a civil war of sorts england against the east, india company, who wins the india company, because it goes a hundred million people and at its peak and at that time the whole population of england was like five in people of maybe eight million people, certainly less than ten million people.

Ok, how did a space trading company with a charter out of london come to govern hundred million people, on the indian sub continent, well, Seventeen sixty five after years of expansion and war, the east, india, companies, The treaty with india is mobile, emperor that allowed the company to collect taxes from some of the richest parts of india, with a cut going to the emperor. Of course, this taxing power me the east india company, the de facto sovereign over much of india and provided funding to continue growing back in when meanwhile, there had been a long period of civil war and then a merger with scotland, all of which generated political chaos? While that's been

happening. This other organization has grown up with its own currency, with its own embassadors, with its on army governing a population that is ten times the size of the country that is supposed to represent it. Not everyone was in favour of the east. India companies reach the politician and philosopher Edmund burke, for instance, called it a state in the guise of A merchant and Adam Smith becomes interested in the east india company, because during this period there is a viral sensation in britain of controversial pamphlets about the company that people would hand out at pubs and coffee houses read aloud to their friends. Some of them are written by company officials. When are they? Are they propaganda? Essentially, some of them are propaganda. They're kind of that old thing was for a general motors is good for america, some of them are than critical accounts that seem to be suggesting the east india companies too powerful. But when look those are written by merchants who would love to be in the space trade in it.

But they can't get in because it's a locked monopoly and in each those cases in the pro east, india, company, pamphlets and the anti east india company pamphlets are their connection of the authors well known, or are they a little bit of subterfuge propaganda, yeah, subterfuge propaganda did they use their real names? They would never use fake aims, but sometimes we're just be signed like by a merchant and smith becomes in italy. He asked a reader of these pamphlet. Some of these pamphlets as a tall rights, written by men who were at once company employees, theorists of economic policy and occasional advisers to government committees crafting trade regulations. If all this feels but sake, cronies,

perhaps you prefer sleazy. It is worth considering just how blurry the lines were between commerce government and the intelligentsia. The enlightenment, fella the John Locke, for instance, who is revered too for his arguments about property rights, also a shareholder of the royal africa company, which dominated england's trade in slaves. What about Adam smith? He was repulsed by what he saw as the east india companies self dealing. He found it in the tunnels, words politically oppressive and economically unproductive. One incident in particular caught Adam smith, attention a serious drought Ben gaol where the east india accompanied took green from hungary peasants. In order to feed the companies own army and between them. And ten million people die in a year which is somewhere between a quarter.

a third of the population of the province of the time I mean it's, a huge mass deathly man and it's such a big event that its covered in the papers in britain and the company does have to report about it. In its company reports, Psmith becomes very interested in. How did this happen? How is this company miss me During its rule, writing in the wealth of nations smith blamed the severe of the famine on the east. India companies, improper regulations and in judicious restraints after the famine? The british government got more involved in the oversight the company, but there was another colonial scandal brewing. It's called the east india company aim, but it gets itself involved in the american revolution yeah with tee, with tee the east india company, due to a combination of overreach war. Corrupt

and the sheer cost of maintaining a huge army had fallen into significant debt. So the british government tried to bail them out with the t act of seventeen. Seventy three. This gave the company a monopoly on the sale of tea in the north american colonies that tea would be subject to import taxes which antagonize the colonists to the point that, as you like, we know. Them boarded, ships in Boston harbour and dumped the east, india, companies tee and smith in his critique of the bay famine and what's happening in india, says look part of the problem here. Is it can't be regulated because it's so big- and it has all these independent, some chips with indian government officials. That really should be part of british state diplomacy, and it has this internal conflict of interest between its commercial and political imperatives. This is going to lead to some form of state capture where the british government, and of doing things that are add for britain to help the company, so he is concerned about the way in which the governance in the colonies will corrupt british government that society were their other

english firms who were selling other things to the colonies. Yes, that was a relatively free trade and they announced that there was going to be a limited set of wholesale licenses. Only certain people are going to be approved to get them in the north american ports in both in charleston, so on, and only the east india company is going to have this transatlantic shipping routes, so in other words, were vendors who had trading agreements or trading networks in place, and they were then suddenly excluded. They were then suddenly excluded and then the wholesale licences we are only going to give out a limited number of those, we are going to cherry pick. Our favorite people to give them to this, creates this huge political outcry and it's in the protest over those licenses that the tea is famously thrown overboard in Boston harbor. So I have a big question. You have to pardon my ignorance here, but for someone who may think about Adam smith today as a patron saint of free market capitalism, it sounds like the east india company was,

the embodiment of free market capitalism and it turned out to be a den corruption and blocked and failure. So how can those two things be true? Well smith would say that it's not particularly free market entity, because its able to achieve all of this commercial prowess, because it has these special permits from the government that other firms don't have but dont modern firms. Today, get a version of a special permit from governments to operate, as they do, maybe not as monopolistic we, but maybe as and monopolistic we either, and we should say that the government creates a monopoly but like whose facebooks rival prince instance who amazon's rival. I ask you sincerely for an answer yeah and while I think that from smith in particular, there is a really strong critique of state capture and we should be concerned. So when I come back to smith and thinking

at amazon. You to blisters may remember that what amazon was looking to open a second headquarters and had many cities in the united states bidding to be the second headquarters. The cities, even before one was selected, had to sign non disclosure agreements to not talk to the public, about the fact that they were in contention or what the terms of those would be. That's something that it extracts from a lot of cities where it has warehouses already it's something that facebook has extracted from some of the cities where it has hubs and processing facilities? So I think that we should be worried about these large companies who are large employers in the places where they set up operations that are often able to extract terms from local government that are not subject to public discussion and public consent in places that are ostensibly marcus is by the nineteenth century, the east, india companies trading monopolies had been curtailed after the inn In rebellion of eighteen, fifty seven, the company was nationalized and its

activities wound down. It still exists in a sense in two thousand and five indian businessmen, Sangi major bought the right to the name, any turned it into a consumer brand focused on luxury foods, so the east, india many survives as a name but a name that represent something very different from what it meant in its lifetime, which is a lot like someone else. We know he would have been appalled by our brand of casino capitalism. Coming up after the break. Can we talk about where Adam smith woodland on today's political spectrum? Oh god, please now, I'm stephen dubner is for radio we'll be right back.

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advantage sign up at staples business advantage dot com today The John you ll play the invisible hand, tells a story of Adam Smith. Intellectual journey is rise to fame and his relationship with his mother imagines myths in conversation with voltaire in france, with his friend David Hugh in edinburgh and there's another character in a modern day. History, professor, who acts, is something like the conscience of the playwright hears. What the fester has to say about how Adam smith might see today's global economy. It would have been a

old by our brand of casino capitalism had he been alive today. I think he would have urged economists to consider that the quality, not just a quantity of economic growth, is what really matters. He saw that wealth brought power. He valued the free market, but believed it was the responsibility of a civilised society to ensure that wealth should not be achieved at the expense of the rest of humanity, first and foremost, adam this was a philosopher the humanist before he was an economist. How can it be that the man known as the founder of free market capitalism is also a humanist whose sympathies line up squarely against many of the natural result of capitalism, the political side just glory. Lou, author of Adam Smith, america, has spent a lot of time. Thinking about this contradiction does went away

red lines about him by the intellectual, storing donald winch he's so furiously balanced love that as well as men, rising lee mundane his life, at least as you right. Oh, yes, it's another phrase. I really love and, to be honest, there are parts of the wealth with me, that our mesmerizing we mundane most of us, don't read these texts as a scholar and try to divorce. Our personal politics Most of us. When we read almost anything, it seems like we practise what psychologists call com Nation bias, rape, oh there's evidence from smith, there, whoever that proves it. I was right yeah. Do you feel that someone who tend to be quite liberal or quite conservative if they were actually to read all of Psmith, which one would feel ultimately more supported were at home, the left to stir the greatest. Oh man, I mean a cheap they're. Both can feel just as supported. Can you just put this in

an example. Imagine a young liberal college student reading the book in coming upon something that gibes with everything they believe and then something that really goes against it. So following the recent burg, we grant down with the washington consensus, is young woman who happens upon the works. It smith, she's, going to find a smith who had a radical orientation towards the poor she's, also We need to find the smith a view of liberty that wasn't just about the primacy of economic freedom, that site for every reading of smith there's another reading of smith for every sentence where it seems.

Psmith says this is bad. There's another sentence where you could go well. Maybe not. Could you give me a few from each category? Ok, slavery, bad feudalism. bad. I dont want to be on the record for saying this, but like growth overall, economic growth is good. Why would you know on the record saying that doesn't seem like a fairly humane, logical argument, lake more people having access to let safe food and electricity. I mean it used to be pretty uncontroversial, to say that I think, because I'm worried about being taken out of context. He thinks growth is good. He thinks getting. People out of poverty is good, He thinks high wages and low profits are good. I have to tell you if Adam smith were here today, I don't think he's

and be in the republican party in the united states. Is he? Oh god, please now? No, I don't think so, but if we were to whole a thousand republican voters in a thousand democratic voters right now in the? U s: where would we get a higher shit you think of people who say that they are in favour of Adam smith, but I just had to guess I'd robert. We guess the republican party it difficult to know because he was a wig that is Ayman, butler from the Adam smith, the two in london which promotes conservative positions under smith's banner in smith's day, but their says they tourists with a more conservative, Four and a half were more like reformers, so obviously illiberal with a small l rather than a member of the liberal party, I didn't know that he'd be a member of any party really one point of contention, or at least confusion over how to think about Adam Smith. Today,

is his frequent use of the phrase self interest. If you want to regard self interest. As the be all and end all of what psmith says of his analysis. That's a mistake that is clear. psmith, no relation, but he is and Adam smith scholar at glasgow university, but it also state to see all he wouldn't interest and self interest, because he was he knew that in certain comes to human beings, pursued their own interest and that had consequences could study as a social scientist other times the babe benevolently, an thought benevolence could be studied in the same way as a social side just so I think the association psmith with economics has privilege that particular element in this Alesis is more, which is more apparent in the wealth of nations. Is anything more sentiments but its understood, richer context in this area. War sentiment. One thing we ve learned here that surprised me was when we visited smith's hometown

cutty and saw that it's not a. It was never a big city, but it was a market town and a harbor town, and that there is a lot to be learned there about the way commerce actually worked from the twenty four century. When we look back, we assume that these old, these were very primitive, but they weren't in all primitive. They were complicated and complex. The scale was different, perhaps but complicate and complex so that is changed. My understanding of how thoroughly psmith understood how economics actually worked on the ground now what you know, I'm curious to ask how you think he would assess the mai an economy while ass good question one of the things this interesting smith is just how much he anticipates things that you could see around about him beginning to happen and worried him about the we. The economy is developing, Obviously these do not in any tin century setting is beginnings of what would become them

in globalized world, but he was aware of the different factors that were impacting on us. He was aware the different economic actors had different and potentially contradictory interests. on the thought, was a threat that came from this kind of development. So smith is he's often held up as being person who celebrates the development of a modern me- and here she used to a certain extent. He sees it as a wheelchair, a more humane world and the world had come before it He was also aware of the negative side of it, and so you find, in smith a set of warnings about things like cronyism, corporate corruption of politics. Imperialism quotation of workers that all sounds very familiar from the twenty four. century as it does and he's obviously didn't have a crystal ball or anything like that, but he could see that those with the kind of issues that would come out of Commercial society psmith understood that those

to rule for the government to play understood that our limitations, mutations pushed on particular forms of economic activity there were necessary ass. He saw the proper operation of a commercial society and that more nuanced, more pragmatic analysis is, I think one has to take away from any. Do you read smith? Ah, yes, nuance something we strive for and this programme every week, I'm not saying we always get there, but it's a goal in this regard. Smith is a good model for us, but there is all an argument to be made that new wants is for the purpose really undecided or the week of heart. John. You is not such a person. He had been trying to figure out what would be the topic of his third play, as it turns out, is second play. The one about Adam Smith has set him on a clear path. He is

to think that smith was either misunderstood or outright exploited by politicians and policy advisers. in the uk, I felt the policies exposed by sacha and her cabinet. Her fellow politicians in the conservative party were cruel, callous and unnecessary, and there were creating a society which was selfish and I think the apex of that the behaviour of the banks which she helped to deregulate. The behaviour of the banks, which is the subject of the third play of decided only yesterday, was the apex of utter selfishness, appalling behaviour which allowed large sections of the population to suffer badly, and I think that's not unforgivable least deserves examination. Now what would you say to let's say

spoke with a fellow in london who runs the Adam Smith institute, which has a very different perspective on these. Yes, and in fact the Adam Smith institute was one of these think tanks thatcher actually consulted with you at her wisdom. Now he would argue that this deregulation that you just spoke I've. A decision of many industries may have been painful in the short run, but that as appalling as it was to use, you're worried. What would be more appalling is to let the state grow and grow and grow and grow and and crumble under its weight. And if you read history, we have seen their have and if so, what would you say to that critique? I think part of the problem as political system here in great Britain

is too centralized, everything is centralized to london, so you have what we've just been through with three prime ministers in months and the second one followed trickle down economics as she called it and bankrupted the country almost there's something in that which speaks about the approach of Adam smith, and so I think, there's a of course to be had, and I think of power spread around the country. We will perhaps not be common independent nation, scotland, Bela much happier, one coming up after the break. There is a brand new, Adam smith institute, taking root in the land house were Adam smith, lived for trying to pick up where he left off. This is we radio, I'm stephen Dublin, and I want to thank you for meaning all year. Long to this show our numbers this year have been bonkers. More than a hundred million downloads with another third

or forty million for the other, shows in the friggin amis radio network, no stupid questions, people I mostly admire and for economic empty. So I just want to thank you for listening and if you feel like giving us a holiday present, It's easy to spread. The word about this show your friends, your family, whoever that is the best way to support the pod. You like You can also read for review freedom trading radio in your podcast app. We have also got a great lineup of episodes to start new year, including a special series on airline travel and another one, The controversy over returning looted, art and artifacts to their countries of origin and we'll be back in a minute to come. with this series in search of the real adamson in freedom video sponsored by a mere apprised disease. financial adviser, know you, as well as the markets at a mirror prize. They take the time.

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offered by western union financial services ink and Emily nine o six. Ninety three or western union international services, LLC m l S, nine, o six. Ninety five effects gains apply. Having spent time in kirkaldy, Adam Smith, hometown and as go where he studied and talk for years. We headed to edinburgh, the scottish capital, where Psmith lived the last years of his life. so how near has smith's final remaining, whom that is caroline? How in the programme, director of PAM your house, was in the seventeenth century, building that smith completed the final editions of the two master works. Great moral sentiments and, of course, the wealth of nations. He also transfer upon mere house into a vibrant meeting place for all of the finest minds of the scottish enlightenment, they would come together to debate

biggest issues of their day and how would Adam Smith have spent his days while living here, I'm sure he'd have risen with the sun? and done some work on his revisions to the fear of moral sentiments in the baltic nations before he, put on his dress, coat and wondered up edinburgh full royal mile, which I guess we're just smelled a little different back then from how it does now pan your house lies just off the royal mile, It is the main drag of embers old town where a castle lies at one end: hollywood palace at the other, in the middle by the waste and the bronze statue of Adam smith. The real smith, meanwhile mildly, eighteenth, entry, Adam smith would have made his way from pen your house all the way up, the mile tick, seems house where he were to have spent and limiting to ten hours administrate, heavily and very successfully by all accounts?

returning home in the evening to enjoy a meal prepared by his cousin and mother. I have no doubt and then a bit more reading. Before bedtime so in between his morning, writing in his evening Reading Adam smith, one was celebrated. Thinkers of his time would spend eight to ten hours working at customs house. This is true for the last several years of his life, with worked as a senior official at the scottish customs board, he was essentially an overseer of tax collection. I had been surprised to learn this on two counts. First, why would smith want a job at all if he didn't need the income which apparently, he didn't and second, why would he want this job, Adam Smith, known today, is a small government free market fundamentalist. hoping to run scotland's tax department in glass

I had asked the smiths scholar craig Psmith. If this job wasn't a curious choice Yes, I know it's. A family tradition is fond of the customs officer. He obviously had a background in an interesting customs, given the work that he did empirical elements of the wealth of nations saw in many ways. It made perfect sense, He was also interested in the way in which customs excise and taxation were deployed in the economy is about. How do you tax effectively to get the revenue you need to run the government but at the same time not tax in a way that discourages economic activity? I had talked to amend butler about this Who, at the Adam Smith institute in london, just see now here's butlers position on tax in general? Look, I am in favour of cutting. tax of any size at any time in any amount for any purpose, I think tanks it may be a necessary evil, but it still an evil. So isn't it strange that butlers intellectual heroes

and his final years as a tax collector, I tend to agree. It was basically a job which most people you just stayed at home. You didn't do anything just took, the money smith actually turned out and his and smith actually did the job an easier way. So I did all the boring admins stuff, but it I'm time he came up with proposals to say will look into this tax is so complicated that you're actually encouraging gleaming or your encouraging evasion is so why don't we just simplify it and he came up with a lot of proposals on tax which the incoming prime minster, william pit, actually took up and put in new legislation, this image of Adam Smith, As a sharp thinker, perhaps the greatest economic mind of his europe. You run across it again and again. Here, for instance, is the smiths scholar dennis rasmussen from syracuse university toward the end of his lifetime. There's a famous story that turn in virtually every account of smith life where he is

during a room with william pit, the prime minister and his top ministers, and they will rise to greet him, sit on gentlemen and they say no will stand until your first suited for all your scholars, meaning or all your students weather. That's true, I don't know how faithfully they followed on smith's economic advice, but there is you have some evidence that he had quite a bit of impact even during his own lifetime, so you get the sense to Adam smith or years in edinburgh were good ones. There is a lot to be celebrated in smith's life and memorialize, Pen, your house is aiming a bit higher than that today, its affiliated with harriet. Why intercity city and edinburgh business school, who partner to rescue the house in two thousand and restore it the team at pan house aims to reintegrate. The economic and ethical sites of Adam smith legacy use the building to host Psmith, inspired lectures and debates. Also, the occasional play

and you the invisible hand, was put on here in twenty eighteen, but the pan. Your mission is growing. They are hiring a team of academic researchers to create a facility devoted to caroline how it calls sustainable capitalism we're at the dawn of the fourth industrial revolution, with far more wealth, literacy and opportunity than ever before. But this is also a time of real. Do political instability? using inequality, a completely unprecedented environmental crisis and global economic turmoil as well, and how relevant. Adam smith, be their dennis Rasmussen again, oh an article a few years ago, about smith's worries about economic inequality and that's not something that again, I think many people would take be a central part of smith's concerns that he wants everybody to be richer, but you really care about inequality. I think he does he

worries about the ways that inequality inhibit, sympathy, the ways that it's hard for the rich to sympathise with the poor and the is that these things can undermine morality and even happiness. The only things that are going to solve these problems The open minded inquiry, reason, debate and multi just plenary collaboration that characterized smith and the scottish enlightenment. This is definitely going to be. The future of Adam smith, thinking as it were, but we're trying to pick up where he left off. It is an entirely. Thought for sure to not only keep Adam smith current for the twenty first century, but also to reclaim him to show that he was so much more than the cardboard cut out image. So many of us have the free market zealot who apparently some invisible hand would solve everything when he during our visit to edinburgh, the playwright John

and I took a stroll through pan, your house, along with the programme executive named blair, barrows. Every event we do is kind of introducing people to smith is a human because, their only they say a statue of him and they say a clock on the wall they say a pitcher, but they don't see that human element, but it's not just statues and plaques. It's that what he is thought to represent as an patron saint of aceh kind of free market, ideology is in fact a component of who he was but one there we say that as an american ideology, not typical, to america of america, but by and large came from their it's come to this Has it John it's come suited city of chicago school of economics, among others, but the other side of that is that, because britain follow america and almost everything it did, particularly with money,

become so americanized here that Madame sacho, as we said there, there actually propagated the same stuff. You know that right wing ethos of that's what Adam Smith was about suitable agree? Would you say this project is meant to be a corrective to that smith, not just the wealth of nations smith, but the nineteen sixty university of chicago nineteen seventies and eighties britain, nationalizing privatizing, Adam Smith. I wouldn't use the word corrective the project It is worth trying to open up debates more which to introduce people to smith for them to develop their own ideas. So, I wouldn't say, all, I would just say its building the foundation of different ideas. Nice done seawater, neither academic any of these things. I can say I want to say- and I would say that great britain bought locks, talkin

most barrel the american way they really did. They went further and became individualistic throughout the nation, and that has been too detriment of many many things, and I'm not sure that there is not now a movement led by time. Your highs and others like them took. I think I would use the word corrective he's, correcting your lack of using corrected. the smith movie into pan your house in seventeen. Seventy eight, Margaret smith, is the loved mother, lived with them you're upon me mere house until she died seventeen eighty four, which was just six years before Psmith himself, passed away. His mother was very religious and some people have suggested the part, reason, the smith is so careful about what he says about religion was more in deference to heart than it was too.

george, you know. I always wondered what he would have written it. She died earlier. He dies later. You think he would have broken loose more. Some people say Instead, I never said that if you look at some of the changes made to the very final edition of tms the theory of moral sentiments after she had passed away, the some of the passages may be interpreted as reducing the religious Next, while he was able to make meaningful revision To theory of moral, sentiments and wealth of nations during his time at pan mere he was also, unfortunately, the busy with his day job k. So this prevented him from writing the third major work that he had planned its unclear. What this third major work I'd have been smith, was known to have made notes for a book on the history of the arts and sciences and another book on the history of law in government. fight in seventeen. Ninety on his death bed, he had the two executors of his wealth, Joseph blackened James Hutton,

Come upon your house to burn all of the unfinished notes and papers that might have helped us pieced together. What would have been in that third major work? it is a real loss, actually that we don't have that tax and I have check the seller in the attic several several times. I'm afraid they really are gone. Adam Smith, die. at PAM your house in seventeen ninety aged sixty, seven john, you ll play citing psmith scholarship portrays. Him is somewhat frustrated toward the end of his life that he hadn't accomplished more. He was buried very close by at canongate kirk here. John, you all and I having followed smith's footsteps all day and into the night. We went to pay our respects. John, were entering what you call the courtyard yard? What we call this, material, its churchyard, but that happens rave graveyard and it happen

to be halloween. Are you a believer? No, but I still feel slightly nervous because it is when and because here with americans, new distress, perhaps no book, I know that those people of edinburgh her lightly. The leap up from behind the stove last forever money trick or treat this quite spooky. Italy, quiet here, Adam smith- and this is where the good

Mine lies, so he's got a very special place in the cemetery he does. He really does I liked the grave I think it suitable to the man. I think it fits his personality and I think it fits his world and his place in it there's a slight austerity about it, which I feel is appropriate and that the influence of his mother must have rubbed off in some way on him. I just feel that from that grave, this not fancy and it's to me of a serious passion, a serious person, not somebody who wants to be known for bubbles and beads, but for serious thoughts and words, and can we read what's their written? the first. Stone is the property of it

every man has in his own labour is the original foundation of all other property. So it is the most sacred and inviolable. That's really good. I wish I'd put that in the play When you talk about how much the world is changing during smith's time- and it was, it certainly changed- but since his time and as we, and here at his grave site, on halloween in edinburgh. On the eve, the three hundredth anniversary of his birth. What do you think atoms? I would say to you tonight: you John you ll who's been writing thinking about Adam Smith and about how

Adam Smith's saw the world. What do you think he would say to you may say finish that third play a key fauna by say: get it finished, because that concludes the journey that you ve been on, which started and still lives with syria. Varro sentiments- and I know the wealth of nations is the most famous book. But for me, as was said earlier, it's the theory of moral sentiments which is the guide. So if that's your mission as directed by Adam smith, what are you wasting time talking to me here in the cemetery? You've got to get home and get to work. Don't you you invited me and we've had a very nice day, and you gave me lunch. The end of the day, I'm just a traveling player and the thought Lunch is always appealing So now I ll go back and do that way be hungry tomorrow and thus concludes our three part search for the real.

psmith. All my thanks to John you'll, along with his merry band of psmith history, and from kirkaldy. Thanks to all this, myths, scholars and devotees who gave us their time and expertise, and thanks especially to you for listening, again, if you are willing to spread the word about friggin ominous radio. That would be great. My biggest thanks here go to sack le pen ski who produced the series with great care and insight and humor You also proved to be an excellent travelling companion and one more notice thanks to John you'll for lending his fine voice to the readings of Adam smith, as well as for his companionship and for leading us to a very good haggis coming up next time on the show I think it's very unusual to have your mix of apprehension in some domain say like public speaking and what must be extreme self confidence.

Like you, can write the entire history of mankind, I'm not show itself confidence, when they wrote sapiens. I didn't take myself for the project to seriously and I might make some terrible mistakes, but that's fine? I mean who's going to read it anyway. People did read seconds millions. people it's an unusual and extraordinary history of the human race by you Noah harare. He said to talk about it with Steve Levitt. My for economics friend and co author for his part, asked people. I mostly admire that's one of our sibling pot. tests in the freak animates radio network and a special holiday treat. You will hear that harare interview next time on the show until then take care of yourself, and if you can, someone else do and freakonomics radio is produced by stitcher and read, but radio you can find our entire archive on any podcast or at frequent

It's com, where we also publish transcripts and show notes this episode noted earlier was produced by zach weapons with help from catherine mon cure, and it was mixed by gregg ribbon withheld from germany Johnston. We also had helped in scotland from Josh, nixon and upload studios and help in london from rob double alex. Do this and london broadcast studios our staff whose morgan levy ryan kelly, alina common, rebecca early Douglas We can for eleanor osborne jasmine cleaner dairy cluttered immaterial we heard about it? Elsa Hernandez the frequent mix, radio networks, executive team is milk, ruth Gabriel raw. and may seem in. Theme song is MR fortune by the trackers. All the other music was those by lewis here once again, thanks for this this is a light, look something, Coming up with a light, our let's pretend that those

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