Freedom, radio, sponsored by the Paper and Packaging Board every year, more paper and boxes are cycle, the United States and every other material combined in the past three years, an average of maybe two point. Four percent of corrugated cardboard packaging was recovered for recycling. The makers of paper and packaging work hard to find innovative ways to recapture and reuse this material, and these impressive recycling numbers only inspired them to work harder? Thank you for recycling, learn more about recycling innovations that paper for nature, dotcom, choose paper and paper packaging and be a force for nature Fr Economics, radio sponsored by South Dakota Tourism Outdoor adventures, around every corner in South Dakota Hike through the a worldly maze of rock formations and Badlands National Park Ride and

tv through the black hills, o fish, kayak or paddle in rivers and lakes. Why, through majestic mountain spires on a scenic drive down needles, highway, Rome, Custer, state heart with herds of basin, bighorn, sheep and elk, when you are ready to get out and road trip again go great places, learn more travel. South Dakota stop come hither, Stephen Dublin. Do you ever find yourself in an endless cycle, negative thinking? If so, congratulations you're normal police. That's what the psychologists tell us today on the show, an episode we first published in May twenty when he during a bad moment in the cupboard pandemic, it's called reasons to be cheerful. A few things have changed since we first put out this episode, so we will provide updates at

and also we are working on a follow up to this episode about negativity in the media, here that one sometime in the next month or so, and make sure you listen to the very end of this episode, because we have an important announced, about a new show. Yes, another new show in the Economics radio network, but for now here you go reasons to be cheerful. This episode is not about the cuban nineteen epidemic unless you think it is you understand what I mean as we proceed. Let's start with a long time journalist, I'm John tyranny for years, tyranny wrote for than your time scene. I actually work together there for a few years, but way before that when he was just starting out in one of my first jobs. I was a summer in turn at the felt off you bulletin.

You know it's all a man on the term, Poland, and there was a he wave and they asked me to do. The weather, store kind of a dread assignment is unity. What is there to say about the weather so foiling around and I was calling the police stations at the, Jersey Shore well out of even felt ass. If he would go do anyway, and I was asking for news nothing was going on this Accept Travis, gonna heavy, and I so I started asking them, I said: is the worst traffic you ve ever seen and the deaths are desirable, denying us always heavy and arduous. It's it's a normal August, but I find they found one s heart in who said yeah Yes, I would say, is the worst have ever seen, and I never asked to my is this your first we can work. Am I led the next day as it were, police carbon word traffic, strict and even at the time, I realise this is pretty sleazy and I would just wondering why did I do that? No one told me to do it. I just instinctively did it and then I

noticing Nina how easy it was to drama bad news to find one bad thing, the focus on an idea, just one. why do we do this? What people want to hear all this bad stuff journey had stumbled first hand onto the truest truism in journalism if it bleeds it leads at the moment. There is plenty of legitimately bad news, often terrible news about the cuban nineteen pandemic, but in normal times which we hope will resume before too long. The bad. It was, you see, is often sensation and globally, not worthy of the bold headlines, but it gets our attention and keeps our and it keeps coming back for more probably dont need to tell you this. Do I not you ever read newspaper Watch TV news. loser spent five minutes on Facebook, Youtube

Do you know why we are so attracted to bad news, often at the expense of neutral or good news? Psychologists think they know why they attributed to what's called the negativity bias. It's for you. Reversal tendency of bad events and emotions to affect us more strongly than comparable good ones. The negativity bias is not. Fine to our media consumption. It works its way into our personal relationships work relationships are very view of the world. Now how ironclad do psychologists consider phenomenon. We don't have any universal laws in Psychology Bush, ironically the greater power abandoned good is one of the closest things we get to a law. Is it possible to escape this law, perhaps but even very successful? people, the music. I can't David Byrne, for instance, are susceptible o. Absolutely there be a good review

they'll be one negative sentence about my appearance, and that would be the thing that I remember today, unfortunately, radio, why we're soap owing to the negativity, bias, how it affects our decisions and how to escape even harness it to rise above the fray I'm here this is broken MAX radio the podcast, but explores the hidden side of everything. Here's your host, Stephen, Abner, so the journalists. John Journey had known for decades that the best way to get readers attention was to focus on the dramatic, the frightening the violent,

but I didn't really understand it until I read whereby much paper bag a stronger than good Roy Bow. My stir, I my research psychologist to pressure of psychology at the University of Queensland Thou Meister, is one of the most cited social psychologists of his dinner. he's done research on everything from willpower and self esteem, too. Decision making in free will to sexuality mode Social scientists have to specialise very narrowly and Rome trying to be a general list and still come up with the big picture. Understanding of human nature. Roy Bow, Meister John tyranny have written to books together. The first called willpower was published. In twenty eleven. More reason They ve published a book called the power of bad, how the negativity effect rules us and how we can rule it. Bow misters academic paper on the power of bad published years earlier grew out of a pattern that he had noticed

just about everything he read, so I started noticing over and over again that the impact of bad things seem to be stronger than the impact of good things. Remedy account, must have noticed this, with loss aversion, loss, aversion, first described by the psychologists then economy and AMOS Diversity notes that people are generally more sensitive to losses than to gains, even if their equal in magnitude economists have tested this by gauging those reactions to winning and losing money? Well, the losing fifty dollars seem to be farther away, from the control group than the gaining fifty dollars. I mean you're happy if you gain fifty dollars, but the positive It was really no different from the neutral country like our studies of acceptance and rejection in what did those studies of acceptance and rejection look at so it people come to the laboratory and interact with someone on either be accepted or rejected or again a neutral control, and then we measure their subsequent behaviour in writing.

contracts. Are they more aggressive towards someone else will be more helpful to they do more stupid, shortsighted self, destructive things over and over again The effect of rejection is stronger than the effect of acceptance on all these different variables. So started, seeing this and then went to a couple of my colleagues since at present we do a literature of you were. Let's look for the summit particularly look for exceptions, because it will make him interesting theory. We can say well bad things. a stronger than good things in a b c and d, but the exceptions F and G, the promise we could find exceptions, all different methods and different sorts of phenomena, keep pointing to the same conclusion. The mine, just overreact too bad relative to good Thou Meister into Many in their new book try to trace the power of bad to its evolutionary routes. Will the negativity effect evolve because they help

our ancestors alive. As we say here, life has to win. Everyday death only has to win once it was more important to pay attention to not eating poisonous berries than to really saving the good ones, yet to pay more attention to predatory lions. A few miss out on a great opportunity for good food or sex or any other life. Affirming thing well, that's too bad, but you might have another one the fine day, but if you miss Hale, A dangerous predator, fail to notice that will put an end to your life, and so the psychological mechanism underlying our work, is that the mind was shaped by evolution to pay your to risk. As bandmaster noted, he thought he'd find areas of life where the negativity biased doesn't hold sway, but he didn't

even in areas where you'd almost be certain the positivity would rule so very different kind of evidence looked at the friendship formation than a reserve. A classic study that took over an entire were dormitory. and tried to see you who would become friends with whom they had all sorts of elaborate theories about political and really, Just similarity and tone. Oh, it seem to work. The best strikes defect was who live near each other so people made friends with someone to buy them, and so this went into other textbook says oh just being exposed someone being regular contact produces a friendship but then the twenties later somebody did a follow up and also measured who became enemies entered turns out living near somebody increases the likelihood you'll become enemies, even stronger

than the likelihood should become friends now, MR found another example, a personal example in parenting and my daughter was born when around to the experts on intelligence, they knew it, and what do I need to do to make her smarter? I want it s my child. They set the tone trapper on her head. It sure that was already on one of my plan, so that wasn't really helpful, but it turns out that a good parents that basically because genetic issue that the kids genes determine their iq, whereas bad parenting reduces the link from Jean. So the implication is you can make your kids but her by being a bad parent. Opportune if you're abusive or something like that, you can't make your kid any smarter. All you can do is let the genes shine through that's an especially useful in sight.

during the corona virus pandemic, with so many families locked up at home together. I do feel compelled to mention, however, that this entire argument about the negativity bias is really hard to pin down. Empirically it's got a certain squint and connect the dots quality to it. For starters, negativity and positivity are pretty broad terms with a quite permeable boundary. But still, let's assume this negativity biased, as described by MR and tyranny, is real, at least to a large degree in the areas, if that's the case, just how much stronger is bad, then good in general. It takes about for good things to overcome one bad than NUTS rule farm, it doesn't apply to every kind of thing, but it's a good thing to keep in mind. In a valley, you awaiting the impact of your actions in evaluating how you're doing in your life. You know that in other, if you're late for one me

you don't make up for by shown up rallies and next time. So let's say that someone that you know works for me it does. Something really stupid makes a bad mistake. Would it be a good idea for me to directly tell them look that is really bad. You now need to do for really brilliant things just to get back to zero. I may I think they're friends should tell who felt that would be a little Don t they tell you imply that in order to overcome well, I me for one kind of emitting the irrational war, but on the other hand, you could say I'm a person just like you, this good. What about same kind of advice? Let's say a familial or even more romantic would say your partner, your spouse, or maybe your intended right and they do HU, the one bad thing: how do you communicate that? That is weighing very heavily on you? I think

first thing is to try to give them the benefit of the doubt and Indonesia Shirley ascribe to some inherent character flaws or that their selfishly. They don't care about you. You know, researchers found that successful marriages, the people in that practise what are called positive illusions? We quote that advice, the roof begins? Bergs mother in law gave around her wedding day in every marriages, to himself to be a little death, the really version of this was what was called the the gottman ratio. John Gottman was a famous relationships researcher who looked at married couples and so on and came to the conclusion that too a relationship, will continue as happy satisfied marriage if there are five good things for every bad one says the F rule five for every fight. Five four indications for every fight would be the polite version of it that couples who

Do that will succeed in and I don't see anything magic about tax Oliver? There may be about its easily measured. I mean, if I ask you how many positive interact. Did you have with your husband or wife in the last forty eight hours that product difficult for you to count but How many times have you have sex and how many times did you fight? You can probably give a precise number so for ease of counting That's a useful index, So I guess if one were to counter Your offer positive spin on the negativity bias will you could say that it seems to be a part of human nature to constantly strive for improvement to matter, how much progress you ve made, and so to that end the negativity biases may be a useful. Incentive Dubai. That idea at all. Well, the desire to improve- I think, is

as shown any even in the research, is one of the wealthiest and most adaptive and best ways to approach life. Now Well, you need a negativity bias for that. It may be helpful. I dont think its its necessary in fact, thou Mayst, your internet. Argued that the negativity bias, even more than being not necessary, is rather costly, cost is simply the enormous amount of effort and money that is spent on non problems that the basic and of enriching special interests said and a growing lots of on this sorry programmes and that often make things worse. Let me say here that these conversations with tyranny and by MR took place before the cuban nineteen pandemic, the kind of non problems tyranny was talking about things like the fear of overpopulation. Nineteen sixty is the energy crisis. Nineteen seventeen is the experts told

Does that we're running out of natural gas? So we have to stop using for electricity. We have to burn call instead. So that turns out to be worse for climate change. Overall, there has certainly been progress and knife is better overall than it is in the past, but when you make a theoretical conclusion about the state of the human condition? I think now you know at least for me wise to be skeptical that weld the people who are making these conclusions. Like yourself, no offense meant are university. Professors who are you know pretty near the top of the the human scale in in history, in terms of money and accomplishments, education and and probably health in and so on, and so I wonder if you ever think that maybe you know your message is weaving out too many people that life is truly not really good for a great many people, whether its economically health, wise politically,

You know due to the bad luck of where and when they were born and what kind of situation there in an whether in fact for them, the power of bad is much more legitimate van you're describing now because there is indeed a lot more bad in their lives or it will in the first place, a lot of the data are based on people like that to it not simply professors asking each other, and, incidentally, professors complain a whole lot. I remember visiting a university in hours, had a conversation like this, This is a wonderful job and so on in the country. to each other into what we know for say that out loud have to always be complaining. Otherwise, the administration will give us a raise code to act like everything's awful, and you mentioned income, men and health of the effects on happiness. the curves over interesting on those. If you're really sick, it does lower your happiness, but the difference between being moderately healthy and really help

as must the negligible effect on how? How happy I, with life as a whole, the same with income? I think the general consensus is really having serious money problems where you just don't have enough money, yeah, that's a downer, it's hard to be happy with that, but to go from, say well to do to really well to do this much smaller difference. You just don't notice the positive things you notice, the negative now, the implication and really what the book is about is the fact that this useful, I guess, defence mechanism, if you call that, has to some degree outlived its use, because a lot of the threats are no longer so prominent, but that we port over this existing power and give bad news a lot of leverage

What degree would you say you were out of sync: how much surplus do we reward the power of banned while it still row imports to pay attention to bad things in your in inner, because I'm getting along with people's bad stuff matters, but more is important to pay attention to that, but life has gotten somewhat safer than ever was somewhat more peaceful than ever was, and yet we still have this in an ancient reaction took a task. five. In imagine the worst and the worst I think, is that we live in a high bad environment were just surrounded all day by people trying to get our attention on various screens, and they know the easiest way to do. That is to scare us to tell us bad news to tell us is a crisis, so the merchants of bad we call them are just going at us around the cloud trying to sell us their wares and are our ancient ages immediately reacts this high bad environment

tyranny and Bow Meister talk about. You are likely well aware of it. For decades now, there's been too discussion about whether the news media is too negative to problem based instead of solution based one analysis of global. broadcasts from nineteen. Seventy nine two thousand ten showed a steady trend toward more negative tones, which also different now is how techniques Reggie has made more news more available, all the time virtually inescapable, even if you don't, opt in to every newsdealer about the latest, shooting or political outrage. Somebody close to you, probably doesn't bell that you know about it for me, the outlets. This emphasis an alarming news is business decision so that dealing with what their customers will huntin summers: don't wanna shell out a lot for her newspaper. That is how things are pretty good, everything's fine. They will of much more by

Extradition that says a new crisis and The president has done something: orders: a threat of war or a danger of climate, it's gonna meltdown surveys from the Pew research, center found that around two thirds of U S, adults feel worn out by the news and more than half of social media users say their worn out by political posts and discussions. So areas was to counteract high bad environment. tyranny and by MR recommend, what they call a low bad diet. I try to follow people on Facebook and Twitter who deposit of stuff. I don't really was news that much when there's a you know it where's the territory school shooting. I dont even turn on the news in I'll. Read one paragraph about what happened. That's all I want to know about it. Then I try not to Watts, is in a sort of the the is back and forth left and right punch,

freezes, slime and each other sites really try to read positive stuff, uplifting stories about science or history. Then the either one of the best tips I picked up or what was this idea of capitalization that you should share a joy that when something good happens, tell someone about it. When someone tells you about something good respond enthusiastically early, bake it. But it is amazing how much that helps so those are some tips for dealing with the power of bad on the consumer and of things the demand side coming up after the break. What about the supply side? We are thinking about. We to make it less scary, to navigate the BBC Homepage David Byrne shares his reasons to be cheerful. It's coming up right after this. Programmes, radio sponsored by capital, one now or fees or minimums on checking and savings accounts banking

capital one is like the easiest decision in the history of decisions kind of lake. using to listen to another episode of your favorite podcast and with their top rated at you can deposit x and transfer money anytime anywhere making capital even easier decision. That's banking, re imagined. What's in european terms, capital one any member f the icy frigate radio sponsored by the rise in the pandemic abruptly chain the way we learned and highlighted the fact that millions of under resourced students in the? U S, lack the connectivity technology and skills required for success in today's digital economy, the rise in innovative learning. Each q is next Jen Online Education platform that addresses New I been learning models by providing access and support for ground break virtual and all mental reality. Education, materials here is former teacher in current

rising employee Alex or Bello sharing more about how horizon is giving back and helping bridge the digital divide. Mr Novo and I'm a director for corporate social responsibility at Verizon, I'm a former teacher and school district administer I still remember when I was a teacher? I would often have students come to class with their homework. on their cell phone number. One student shown me her phone end. What she asked me. That was how many points you going to take off. Not are you going to take any points off at Hamley Will you take off? I would see a lot of situations where schools felt that closing the digital divide meant that you had to purchase significant amount of technology, but would happen, is I'm walking to classrooms and teachers would have things like interactive white boards? but they were still using a basic projector and that's because they didn't learn how to integrate that technology to their instruction. Citizen Verizon is the companies responsible business plan for economic, environmental and social advancement and its integrated

brown or business strategy. Citizen rising, empowers rising to deliver the mission to move the world forward reaction, we Span: digital access resources, we protect the climate and ensure people have the skills needed for jobs of the future were committed to provide ten million youth, with digital skills, training by twenty thirty, to ensure that all students and teachers nationally have access to innovative learning tools and the proper training to successfully integrate them into the ask him whether in person or in a hybrid setting, we launch, next generation online learning Portal Verizon made of learning each q we'll take hallmarks of our horizon. Innovative learning programme since twenty twelve and make them available for all we're democratizing access to exile, the classroom. You can learn more about Verizon's programs, tat, citizen, Verizon, dot com. I once had an idea.

Probably not a very good idea, but here it is. It's been shown that Saturation media coverage of mass shootings and terrorist attacks can inspire future shootings and attacks would be perpetrators see all the attention and they want some of that twisted glory for themselves. So what if the media didn't instinctively saturate us with all that coverage or what? If at least you, could wade the saturation. What if every reader or viewer could opt out of the coverage of certain topics, or at least the saturation coverage? We all know people whose a they dont want to read the fifty seventh article about the latest mass shooting the one that detailed exactly how they Guy got all these guns up into his hotel room and set up the Partridge shoot people from, but they do read those articles. They do watch those TB segments its tragedy, porn people say they dont partake, but they do. Journalists say:

They hate to cover it, but when their articles show up on the most emailed list again and again, they figure out way to live with it, so my idea to provide this opt out filter the witness certainly reduce the supply this kind of journalism, but it might moderate the demand at least a little bit. I've talked to a bunch of people over the last few years It is both within the media outside and mostly I get back. Ec stairs, like I said, maybe just a terrible idea, but it turns out There is at least one person who had similar idea and she doesn't think so terrible, so my enemies, sexual role and I'm a software engineer for their research and development, the betterment of the BBC, you may not think of the BBC. And a company that has an or indeed apartment, but in fact it's a long standing tradition. They are constantly thing about new ideas and technologies related to delivering the news. So you do I let us put it. I am sure you do. I let the freeze

It may be one in, I don't know twenty will be like used, but that's delightful fur research and if a Monday Bronfman's one recent prototype dealt directly with this question of media and negative. The idea came from something that grown John had observed in her own life. Yes, that's Oh me, regarding my mood of the day, you can be quite challenging, maybe to read the news and from talking with fright, and was family was colleague I found out that I was and the only one in fact to research turned up a broader trend in terms of engagement and feelings about the news. So when specific, steady, really he my intention it some reactors as survey

in two thousand nineteen and there we found out that thirty, two percent of the people worldwide said they often are sometimes actively avoid the news. So roughly a third of us are actively avoiding the news. This represents a big increase over the past several years. Why this avoidance fifty eight percent? Do so because it has a negative effect on them and forty percent say because they feel powerless to change. One reason these numbers have been climbing garage on suspects is the means. I wish the news is increasingly delivered these days, for instance, in staccato alerts, be a social media, this strips away most of the kind, text, all you get is the alarming headline were summary often amplified by people in your new work who are already angrier, frightened so wrong. John and her team thought of way. They could may be toned down this dynamic and where our thinking

about we to make it less scary, to navigate the BBC Homepage and to do so by giving those people more control over what is visible to them. you could see all getting readers back to the homepage of a media site might moderate the high bad environment rather than only getting alerts about individual. Articles, you also get a sense of the stories you otherwise wouldn't even know about social media, creates its echo chamber in part by winnowing down the information you choose to see by widening the focus you'll at least get the sense. There are other things going on in the world. So what did Roger and her team come up with so first I want The two reminded that this is not the finished product and there is absolutely no intention whatsoever for the biggest unused implemented. So this is just a prototype for research propose only ok,

got it for research purposes. Only some the prototype is a web extension that walk into a web browser. It's on. You walk into BBC News on page, so once you up in it, you have two parts. The first part is a text books where you can enter a key word, a key word for it. since that you are particularly sensitive to, for example, let's say you are like really sensitive to rapes aside, so you enter your key word, which is then fed into the BBC's experimental algorithm. Then the algorithm you gonna go Trudeau all a new stage and he's gonna bear or the article that contain this key word. So it's gonna blow idiotic always include The image and he's gonna display warning picture the homepage, Whatever media say you read the most. It would look pretty much the same, except that the articles containing your keywords would be.

Lured out now. You could override this blurring whenever you wanted it's important to say that you can remove this key warrant at any time, so the Keyword filter is the first part of the BBC's experimental project and the second part. The second part is some kind of mood slider a mood slider that responds to the kind of mood than you tell it. You are in that day, so afraid somebody issue our inner tenanting mood. The algorithms are gonna like filter under article that may be tough for you. and is gonna use the same blurred treatment and is gonna again display a warning saying this article is not matching your mood of the day and again you have this button and you can decide to seat anyway after garage on steam came up with this prototype. They did around of testing very small round of testing with seven young users. Most of them understood what was going on in

begun to enter some key word. We were asking them. What do you think I happen once you, you click on to her and they were like. I sing. The news containing these key word will disappear. Really scary. I don't like it and there are in fact really relieved and there they realise that new article We're going away? They were just getting blurred someone's something. I really like someone said it's like a shield that allow us to be safe on the BBC News on page, which is exactly what I wanted to create, but not everyone like the prototype one tester told the BBC's are indeed team quote new whose isn't meant to be tailored to you. We shouldn't be sheltered from it, I think, is but is very valid. I think This'Ll is aimed to the people who already cut themselves off from the news. We want to bring back people and to do so, we want to add, then decide or they want to engage with the news and do it

the country's way having that agency, getting to engage in the news in a more conscious way, actually proved valuable to crush on herself. Yeah and I'm thinking I might be like- sometimes not really wanting to look at news, because I'm like how this is so depressing- I had to go on. The website like everyday all the time, because I was writing the prototype. But, as you said, reading the BBC Homepage that felt more and more comfortable going to each of the time. So I really felt There was something interesting here about the fact that I didn't feel like perceive, and I was more active on it and it makes me feel like being more comfortable and safe on the home page. That's the Good NEWS, the bad news, the least, if you like the idea of this prototype, is its

oh just a prototype. The BBC hasn't yet given ground John the go ahead to make the algorithm. I've, as I said, is not like a finnish product that will be released one day. It's something to start a conversation and nuts in any case, like thinking I found a solution, I just found a good opportunity to talk about it with some. Maybe the BBC and other new sites will find a way to tone down the high add environment they helped create. In the meantime, there are other sites that choose to simply. guess on good news or, if not good, news per se journalism. It's more solution based in problem based its sometimes called constructive journalism, beyond. This is something we try to do pretty routinely with Freakonomics Radio, but the fact is, constructive journalism tends to be pretty hard sell, the least commercially the reason

so many media outlets still focused so much on bad news is that most consumers continue to consume it. So if you want to try something different, it might help to have a patron someone. With a reach and least a little bit a cash. Someone like this guy, ok Monarchs David Byrne, burn has done many things over along creative career in music film. In writing. Most famously He was the lead singer and mean songwriter for talking heads and, most recently, I just finished abroad. We run of a show called American Utopia and also- and I have a website- east. I guess you could say solutions, journalism magazine that highlights things that are showing positive change and hopeful initiatives

around the world, is called reasons to be cheerful, which comes from a song that came out during the puncture pop somebody the song was by even during the blockades jump. I can do nothing to air of where everybody was complaining and griping, he comes out with a song regions to be cheerful, which was not it's not exactly what I'm doing. I'm talking more about initiatives and policy and grass roots things that are happening, but he was talked of a joint or did back in bed David Byrne conceived.

Of his reasons to be cheerful. A few years ago, he had started to notice his own negativity bias. Well, when ringed news confronted by a barrage of comparable stuff, usually or things that really bother me- and I thought I'm drawn to this, but I know I need to find an antidote. I need to find some way to kind of get myself out of what I appear to be didn't sucked into so what do you do? That's when I started collecting like oh here is a positive thing. Let me put that in a little folder- burns. Little folder eventually evolved into a full blown online magazine with original articles about science and technology, economics and transportation. Civic engagement and more burn himself is rich. Quite a few of these, including a recent article on what constitutes a sensible housing policy. Oh yeah, yeah yeah, so I spent it is research,

the history of housing in Vienna, in Singapore very different but I am always very similar in that the local government Many many decades and decades and decades ago decided to start building housing further citizens. This was not projects like an in Vienna. They got the best architects to build. These big housing buildings. They generally were open to lower income, families and people in the beginning. But and if you did well, if you became middle class, if you begin upper class, you weren't required to leave and because you have really nice bill things and right in the middle of town. People stayed so you end up with this wide range of people and incomes in the same building and all

Bridgetown. So one person was quoted as saying you can't tell how wealthy someone is by their address, because it is everything except for the really the center of town. Everything is all mixed up, and I thought that sounds really healthy Singapore did something similar. Singapore had added issues to deal with they had a multi ethnic society that Austria didn't have. They had Malaysians, China, he's, Indians, different religions, all this kind of stuff stuff that we have here and they being slightly more authoritarian but kind of a benign or thought tat hint reaching. They said. Okay, every place has to have a representative percentage of the various MRS, so these places have by solving sort of one problem. They end up solving additional,

problems they have. No homelessness is almost non existent. Ok, I don't mean to bring it down, but then the problem is, you can identify as you did good solutions or where it's done well, but then you say well, ok, but in our situation that say where policies are entrenched and every time You want to undo some thing, there's going to be a group of people over here who profit from it. being done the way it's done so obviously it's easier to do things. Well from scratch than to undo. Do you get a little and then, when you think about problems that do have solutions but aren't practicable yeah Sometimes I beg my fist on the table when discussion turns to these somebody, subjects, and I go it's not unsolvable. These people did it. They have solved not everything but some of these problems. Why can't we just do what they do, but that, as you say, not quite that some

So so you say, your reasons to be cheerful. Project is meant to be a tonic. Fur tumultuous times, which I like. Do you think that historically our time is really so tumultuous relative to the rest of history, or do we just now? The ability to hear about much more tumult. Oh good question, I I in a way, I think both, I think the ability to hear and are an eight Tennessee too, can be drawn to negative things and bad news and conspiracies and all that is amplified by the world we've created by the digital world. An online median news media amplifies it to where it looms. So much large then maybe it used to some time ago, but also its an airline.

something Euro in I'm? How music works about how music evolved with the spaces its late in so who churches obviously, cathedrals music was written to reverberate. And filled the room and create this feeling of weathers we are travelling ear, oneness, whatever right Well now, let's transfer the music to just information right, do You think that information similarly is being created to optimize heartache. Vantage of the way. Oh absolutely! Yes, absolutely. I think it's a whatever self determining system where it's not always a vast conspiracy that fills up the spaces with bad news, but if that's all uninstall it does it by itself because that's what were drawn to, but then there are definitely a in some companies in whatever who realise this and it who, if they

make money by having more, I Baltimore clicks and this in that, and they know that to get those they need to put out more conspiracies and scary stuff. Well, they're gonna do that so. Let me ask you, as a friend of yours, told me that they ve watched with kind of delight and surprise as you ve evolved from a sort of anxiety, younger person into someone who's more contented and genial and happy grandfather specifically. So I am curious. If that assessment is it all accurate? And if so, how did that evolution happen? I think is fairly accurate. A younger version of myself, I realized later than I did, she appeared to be somewhere on the Asperger spectrum very on.

After one social situations, kind of watching people's behaviour. I'm going how they do this Howard was one. Do this? How do you get to know someone. How do you had it? How do you have a date and trying to figure out human behaviour because I didn't come? Naturally, over the years. I realized it slowly. That was fading away a little bit and those like myself there therapy some decades ago, the band I was in talking heads we expanded from like a for peace to nine peace, or something like that. I found myself and a large community, the music changed and it became more transcending ecstatic and joyous, and that just kept going I work with other musicians. Add social experiences got to know people, and I realized that now I may not be totally comfortable all the time, but most of the time I fairly comfortable

even to the point where now I feel like I'm with civic, agent, which is essentially dealing with strange people, people I don't even know, which is a huge step. So the authors of this book tat the power of bad. They discuss a rule of thumb and they argued that it takes roughly four, events to outweigh one commensurate bad event. So I want to ask you about their just your personal assessment of that thought one way to think about it? As you know, talking heads were generally very, very very well reviewed band. I'm However, there was the occasional bad review, others record or live. Show. I'm curious how you assess. Did you accentuate the negative o? Absolutely absolutely it's the bad ones. Jude remember or there be a good good review and it one negative sentence about my up parents, Sir, my dad

sing or something else, and that would be the thing that I remember was it painful, oh yeah, because it's it's not just a criticism of your ideas is a criticism of you as a person. or something you can't change when they're talking about how twitchy my dad- she was or whatever like. That, will that's just that's what I do. That's not an eye, here that I can modify so one potential downside of everybody being worried about criticism all the time is that it produces a bunch of mediocre people.

in the middle doing the thing that they know will not get them criticized, which may be the opposite of anything dynamic were creative or new, but you know least they're not getting criticise, so I'm curious, you're, a creative person have been all your life. How do you not let the possibility of negative response affect what you want to do next, I tend to think long range. If I think long range, and I can keep revolving and change and can try new things, because my feeling is that the initial reaction was oh. Why couldn't you do more of what you did a year ago or two years ago to for that? We like that red. I realize it long range if I keep doing that, I'm gonna get bored now be left by the side of the road. At some point If I keep evolving, there might be some short term resistance to that.

but long term. I think the reset Some will be better and you, our thinking about the reception to the work and not just the work. Yes, yes, to some extent and revealing and pandering, but I feel like if I keep myself interested they'll, be inevitably some other people who are interested maybe a small group, and in sometimes it may be, a large group something's we more successful than others. But I can keep. I can keep going and he has kept going lately in the form of the Broadway, show american Utopia, which began life as an album and tour the title. may sound ironic, but it wasn't intended that way. We are actually kind of putting this proposal from the people. certain kind of way in a musical way, for for someone who hasn't seen it have you described the show it evolved out of a concert,

So it's a lot of songs, but I realized working with collaborators and etc that I can pick those songs and especially for of theatrical audience I can talk in between some of the songs in a way The songs and the talking all starts to tell a story and its story conflict. What we talked about a little earlier, someone's journey from being kind of very introverted looking at the world from outside. To be accepted and part of a small community and then ending with kind of civic engagement in engagement with the whole world was considered and really nice. Journey and that journey in the show is meant to reflect your journey in real life argument. It comes from me, but it's not my biography. The little interludes. I talk about voting autograph this or that in

then there's the music in the band and when you look at the way the band interacts and the make up of the band, which is polyglot, Polyglot? Yes, many races, many gender is everything and you realize. Oh, we really can live together and do things together, because I'm looking at it happening right here in front of me. There's one moment in american Utopia that happens to distil this idea. I ve been talking about today the power of bad. This moment shows how our perception of events can shift the reality, David Byrne is telling the story. this: one song, songs called everybody's come into my house, and in my version the kind of sounds like I'm, not sure how I feel about everybody

whenever my house and they maybe slightly socially awkward guy So this is written in recent years, but this may be travelling back to you you're feeling some years before that. Exactly exactly I'm remembering my younger self, and I am aware that even if I don't intend it some of that comes across my voice in my delivery in my word choice in this, and that I was working on working with a friend, and the record was coming out me said all its invite other night school groups or high school kids or whatever, to interpret songs, indifferent ways they wanna got done. First was a

high school choir in Detroit Mission led by women. I miss the Irish ourselves and then I talk about hearing their version which It's just the most joyous thing. You can imagine and it seems to be exact. The opposite, meaning tat to my version, and yet they haven't changed damp and change the words they would change the melody and I go. How is that possible is now wonderful that the meaning of a song hobby, other things beyond sounds is not fixed at somebody can kind of, that's just it means something. Really different

There is another song from the show. A blatantly hopeful song called every day is a miracle epic things that are intentionally kind of funny, because it's easy to accept the idea that ok, if chickens, had a concept of Heaven, what would it be? It would be roosters and lots of corn continent as that? Yes, that's what it would be that my perception, my perspective is just over just one of many there's lots of ways

of being and thinking about things, and I happened to pick chickens and other kinds of stuff there slightly absurd, but that's what the huge the humor is, my way of making the point and releasing us releasing myself from the trap of my own, little world. My own little closed perception, we're all all living in our own little world occasion. Only colliding over a cataclysm, a piece of truly bad news like this global pandemic, even so and especially when it's over? I hope all of you are finding at least a few reasons to be as I mentioned at the start of this play back episode, a few things have changed since we first published at the University of Queensland, psychology. Professor Roy Bow Maister is now a professor emeritus. Also we mentioned

David Byrne had just finished his limited run of american Utopia on Broadway. It was supposed to return later in twenty twenty, but that didn't happen because of a pandemic. But here's a reason to be cheerful. American. You, too, It is now finally coming back to Broadway at the Saint James Theatre on September. seven deep in the interim each be released. A film diversion of the stage so directed by spitefully coming up next time on Radio, as you know, we have been expanding the freedoms radio network over the past year with shows like no stupid questions, people I mostly Meyer and for Economic M D. I hope you ve been enjoying all these shows as much as we enjoy making them, but you may be thinking we something missing from this line up everything going on in places like Afghanistan and Russia and China would not be good to have

probing interview show built around foreign policy a national security, every day there are policies being made and executed in our name. This is Men beings coming together grappling with really tough situations and making the s decisions they can but often decisions are flawed or imperfect or don't work out like they were intended, and wouldn't it be great if the host of that show were a former senior Pentagon. Official one of the highest ranking women in the history of the defence department. So I oversight staff of about a thousand people and I had oversight over three defence agencies and typical I would start with an intelligence briefing. Then moving too often a National Security Council meeting either at the deputies level, where the principles level over in the White House and then maybe

It be reviewing a war plan or a contingency plan or proposed operation in the afternoon are right. Then we ve got that show for you time on four radio we'll play for you. The first episode of a new show were working on hosted by Michel Flournoy, former under Secretary of defence, for policy Why is the free economics, radio network, making the show its missing, in my view, is a sham oh that man makes national security issues accessible to a wider audience that takes no abstract concepts like nuclear deterrence or special operations and makes them a real to people by bringing our listeners along for the ride of the very poor. small journeys of our guest. That's next time on the show until then take care of yourself, and if you can and someone else to freak.

It is produced by stature in rainbow radio. We can be reached at radio at for economic stop come this episode was produced by Daphne Chen our staff are. includes Ellison Craig Low Gregg Ribbon Joe Meyer Tricia, Beater, Zack pen, Ski married, Duke Ryan, Kelly, Brent CATS, Jasmine, lingering immaterial work about its and Jacob Committee or themes. Is MR fortune by the hitchhikers. All the other music was composed by Louis Scare. You can get the entire archive, Fr Economics, radio, on any podcast, if you'd like to read a transcript, were the show notes and can find that free economics that come as always. Thanks for listening, there's a lot of positives about ranked voting New York City in point twenty one will go into rank voting. Should we rate you in for something online and plenty busy. The radio network they head inside

of every thing stitcher- some packets general is sponsored by better help online therapy. You mean a field I still have a total loss, but if you're feeling little bit off or your relationships are suffering DEC you're saying you should talk to somebody online there be, can help better help us not a crisis like it's, not self help is poor frictional therapy be done securely online fill out a questionnaire to help better help, assess your knees and match you with your professional licence. Therapist start communicating with your therapist in under forty eight hours schedule secure. Equally video phone or even live chat. Appointments therapist have a broad range the expertise that may not be locally available in your area, login to your account any time too the message to your therapist better help is committed to great matches. So it's easy and free to change their visits, made it it's more convenient and more for

Then in person, therapy and financial aid is available. Listeners get ten percent off their first month it better. Dot com, slash sticker, that's better! Eighty lp calm slashed teacher,