Jordan Petersen is one of the most misunderstood people. I know and believe me, I know a lot of people people think they know when they don't to me and millions of others all around the world. He is reshaping the world in incredible educational ways. He is force of positive change in a world that badly needs it. Now the fan attics, who hate him mostly woke elites. Pretending to be journalist or pundits serve academics they really really paid and I mean it's an obsession with them, but they not only hate him, they hate anyone who associates with and which was an extra added bonus of associating him with me in this podcast. They hate anyone who is effective. And he is very effective.

Those people are trying to destroy anything like I said that is effective, even the conservative media. They constantly, accuse the conservative media of going easy on Peterson I don't think anybody goes easy Petersen. I just, I think you know maybe there's manners and we're like hey he's down. Maybe we should stop kicking him, I mean, maybe If you don't already know about Petersen, you are in for a treat. He is one of the most important intellectuals of our time until twenty sixteen. He was but political psychologist and professor in Canada. Then he was catapulted into the culture war and he was saying things that so many people just feel is true and had the courage to say it. Well one controversy after another, brought him more fame, but also drew more hate. The risk

it has been a vicious, see, saw of yearning Yang that he is manage somehow or another to survive The guy is captivated I took my son to see him. Because he did a for an entire year of stage show where he just add any talked and he sold out opera houses in theatres in a Rina is all around the world for his book tour. I brought my son and I leaned over. He was, I think, thirteen at the time, and I said what are you getting and he said almost nothing dad, but its fascinating last fall the announcement of his latest book beyond order. Twelve more rules, cause protests within the company publishing it the announcement caused pro asked nobody even knew at the book was about that. They hate him this course has deteriorated so much that

conversation about life and love and the importance of cleaning your room Has been deemed not just offensive but deadly, The hateful activists, the mere fact that anyone, but actually Glenn back and some of his other conservative friends or having Jordan Petersen on and their having civil conversations, is proof that all of their delusions are true. But in the words of Marcus Aurelius, it's that Ruth that I'm after and the truth never harmed anyone. What harms us is who persist in self deceit and ignorance. Today, the back. Podcast is pleased to welcome and Peterson. Its mother's day mother's day, weekend, task egg, I haven't really had a chance to talk to my kids about mother's day. Fathers day is much easier.

Better, because you have to do anything Every holiday is easier because mom ways does all of the thinking for the whole family. That's why My mother's day is so important which make worse, that I haven't prepared. Now every mother, I know loves, built bars. Thursday built bars. Course bill bars, keeping healthy, you could provide Billy swing that but their law. Calories, even though they taste fantastic, that stuff turning to look like mom you're fat, our Europe. Yes, you do look fat in that dress, probably not a good! I you know what sir bill bars for the mother's day present, but get built bars you. Of them Europe. Your woman in your life will love them. It is a revolution in the world of protein bars because it's made by people who first wanted to make something taste good and then second wanted to make that something. Actually good for you

I don't know how they do it. I think it's witchcraft, but I know how you can get em. You just go to ill to bar dot com. Slash back billboard, calm, slash back. They are amazing, flavors check them out. If you use the promo code back, you're gonna save, I think it's fifteen percent back If teen is the promo code, fifteen percent off your first order at back fifteen built bar dot com, Doktor Petersen how're. You, Sir Mister back good, to see you It is good to see you I wish it was in person. It is it has been a a wild trip in just Lee. I think it's two years since we saw each other the whole world seems to have changed and I I want

talk to you. I want approach things differently. I don't want to go to politics wanna talk of. Let's start here, I don't know been following this, but the Pentagon in the. U S has four the last five years and is becoming more and more clear. They are very refining ufos, their verifying ships. There saying that we now have technology, We that is extra terrestrial and it is A fascinating thing to watch. And the one question that I've been having is: what will that do if one day we wake up- and you know, The president says: hey three three headed alien was in my office last night. I'd like you to meet him. That, due to a waiting religion, politics as normal,

I actually would be rebuilt relieved if he, if the three had instead, I find more gonna kill all your politicians you're now under us. I think I would be ok, but what would that due to Us- and why do we have this fascination I were I read- some young were you know the modern myth of things scene in the sky where we seem to need. Something like that isn't a question. I expect, and I can tell you that Why do we need something like that? I think it's because there's. Something within us bid is com, currently compelling us too low four and work towards an ideal it built into us extraordinarily deeply. It's it's an instinct. Now what tat means for the fund mental structure of underlying reality. I dont know, but it's definitely there been

you can see the manifestation of that instinct in all sorts of ways. Once you learn to love, So I was writing this morning about a hypothetical football team in a hypothetical american small town. You know, which is the theme of endless numbers of american films and stories its and its story, that's told over and over. The high school team. Everyone knows the whole town watches the boys. Peat to be on the team or their jealous and envious, because they can't be then when they. The team they compete for top spot. Sometimes the best sport comes out on top, even if he's not as athletic gifted as the cynical player, You mean, you know the story. Everyone knows the story of the cheerleading team is striving to go out with the quarterback etc. While you might They will. What does that have to do with your question? Well, look. Why do we watch football league, we like to see people, we to see men organ

themselves into groups a had a target and hid it with skill, we really really really like that? It's ledges ceremony to go to a football game into watch that that occur, for the tribal identification with the teams. In the end there, what the the spontaneous and deep enjoyment that everybody has in witnessing the spectacle- and we want ethical behaviour as well as part of the play, because we want the grid player to be a great deal. Needs to be generous with his prowess too. His teammates, along for the ride to help them develop their skill, and so even in something as bait, Sick is that is fundamental as that, trivial in day to day in some sense is that you can see this deep desire. We have today define ideal and to pursue it we're searching. That was what you was pointing out to some degree when you talk about Ufos as symbols of redemptive redemption from the sky and insides,

stories. Often aliens are there to save us or to judge us there, the pretty action of heavenly beings that's our association or tenants, to associate the ideal with. Its transcendent and above us you know one it asked, but why would that be? It's like well what once when you won't look at the night sky, and the stars are there. You're filled with a feeling of all and that is that all is of its it's it's yours. It's your reaction to the magnificence of the ultimate unknown, and so you projecting eternity into the sky and that become the place of the ideal and so well So that's part of the answer to why we leave such things. What there there's no way around that so I know I lived in New York City for a long time it was amazing about a ranch in the middle of nowhere, and

when you see the depth of the sky, when there's no lights around you and we sat out outside the first night We just talked about the meaning of things in life. I hadn't done that at all really like that when I was in New York, there is some relationship where you you are pondering. Bigger things and I think, as we go into the cities as we have more and more light and more and more distractions, we are missing some fundamental things of just. I guess just becoming so arrogant, and we, ponder house small. We really are in in things well. What? I think your comment about the night sky is well taken mean it's definitely. A good view of the night sky when it's dark is, is definitely one of those places.

Let's say one of those situations. Where are you encounter the absolute and you ask yourself well, what's your life like when you don't have that opportunity now people may opportunities like that to right, that's why they built cathedrals with there massive ceilings and in the light pouring through in color and the music that would who's that sense of being count. With the transcendent but You can certainly experience that in especially in. Nature, especially at night, especially in relationship to the sky. People experience a similar sort of expiring I suppose, when they look at something like the Grand Canyon or or than or for some massive work of nature, but it does come paused, is it calls to that part of us? That's always aiming to move ourselves higher and it's, become increasingly clear to me as a psychologist and as a biologically minded psychologist, justice actually help deepen instinct. That is, and you know it people who believe that we can dispense, for example, with religious belief, but

don't believe. That's true, and I think the reason it's not true is because we can dispense with the religious questions like we can dispense with what's the meaning of our life, what's the difference between good and evil? What's the ideal, what should we avoid? We can avoid. Questions ever and so I think that we need a realm. The provides answers, I think, one of the first things I ever heard you talk about was relationship. In a kind of abstract way, if God, and how important? the redemptive story is, and I so like the way you approach it, because you no or maybe you do, and you dont say, but you'd you'd, you don't profess that you are a believer, but you under

stand the importance to humans to be able to start again and have redemption, and we are destroying that now. In our culture Your cancel culture. All of this stuff critical race theory, there is no redemption and that is one of the things I wasn't large pointing to. Is the there's a there's, an unrecognised danger of our technology- I don't smoke, it's entirely unrecognised, but you know miracle of memory, is not that we remember. The miracle of memory is that we forget The end that we only remember what is necessary, because we can forget, we dont dragged passed along with us right, so we can get free of the past, like all you need, is three sleepless nights to understand what kind of hell life would be if you couldn't dispense with the past, because each? When you sleep, you dispense that day and that renews you and so that that story of of of

Descent into the depths of redemption, amid that's part of our natural biological rhythm, that's the descent into unconsciousness at night into deep sleep, and then our ree awakening in the morning. Now it's a soul. He added with solar mythology with the setting of the sun and the rising of the sun. All that's too angle together, but that definitely does renew us and it enables us to start afresh in the morning the problem with technology a problem with technology is that it becoming increasingly difficult to shed our past and without that you can redeem yourself and that that is a mistake. It is a problem because everyone makes mistakes at every one. Mistake makes mistakes all the time and you might ask yourself well: why isn't it appropriate for you, to be crushed by the weight of your own stupidity in a given that its it man and that you make all sorts of misleads right. No one can live under. Conditions. We need to be able to let go and to forget and to forgive and We all neither is I've. Seen a have seen an interview. I think there's there's like, for you

people on earth that have perfect recollection, and it is it it's beyond just I remember they feel they felt on any given day. You can tell them a date. They'll tell you, the weather, they'll tell you what they were wearing. What was happening, and I saw an interview with one of them and became very emotional, because their re living it and people who have that gift her purse occurs yet some some deal o k with it the others are just crushed by it lets very sick. You forget forgetting and remembering are very, very sophisticated cognitive price This is so normally what we do with an experiences we reduce it to its significance Then we remember the significance and we let go of the details. We do something like that when you write fiction, when you write fiction, you don't write.

Down every single thing: a character does or thinks that would or your reader to death. You write down. Why? significant and important about what they are experiencing, an about what they do, and if we get that right than the stories interesting We do the same thing with our lives. We boil our lives down to the gist of the story, and then we remember that and then what Crushed by the weight of the detailed recollection and it's actually a consequence, a very sophisticated psychological processing that ability to reduce and forget. So things you do and Sarah pity. For example, I wrote this in my new book about writing memory he's down, if they still bother you. So if you have a memory, for example, that's more than eighteen months old for TAT nickel reasons. I won't go into and its. It produces a negative emotion when it comes to mind whether voluntarily or involuntarily, then memory has information in it. That has not yet been unpacked. So imagine

the purpose of your memory, is to extract wisdom from the past that you can apply to the future so that you don't do the same stupid thing over and over or so that new repeat that worked well, that's purpose of memory, not not rhetoric election as such the x action of wisdom, the lesson well, if you have a memory, that's more than eighteen months all and it still hurting you making you anxious, disappointed ashamed guilty. Any of that. It means that you not undertaken. The complex process of analyzing that memory pulling out. But the moral and dispensing with the details. Soap, that's why you say in the book, if you a bad. They expect to have a bad memory. It won't leave you alone right it out right it and read it out. You write it outright it out, everything you can remember about it, we have. We have Software online it cycle of self authoring, dot, com that helps people right order by another biography, and so

go through their lives, breaking their lives into epochs, an idea to the most emotionally and practically significant events and detailing them, and that's all in an attempt to help people forget until Let go of uncertainty and threatened anxiety and, while the whole panoply of negative emotions that their life, We might otherwise be contaminated with it. So what you do that in therapy continually with people when you're talking about their past and it isn't cathedral, is the Friday believed, for example, that If someone had a traumatic experience and then they were able to express the emotion that was associated without experience that that be curative, but it doesn't look like it's the expression of the emotion it looks like it's the extraction of the significance of the event interesting. I had a friend over last night who his head You know a year like I have had in the past, and you have had their just under attack and its relentless

and it is in the attacks they all go to. It seems to me to the thing that you hold most dear. Like I've, always valued. My my word. To tell the truth, as I understand it, to correct mistakes, because I was an alcoholic and I lost the ability to tell anybody anything and have them believe me. So I understood the the importance of your word and and slats, whereas the attacks would always hit me or at least that those are the ones that I felt his work specific to he's a public figure and he just had the worst year of his life and he came over and as he was recalling some of the things he has gone through, he took it up, and I said to him and I'd love to hear your opinion on this gratulation. You now have a superpower and he said what do you mean, and I said

you ve had the worst done to you. You had the worst said to you, you you had to face every fear that Do you know any fear that you had somebody come after me or somebody's gonna say this about me or something? That's all over now. And now you have the ultimate cause, now you can walk into a room and you to have the attitude of go head, do your best. Is Don't bother me now talking to bother me I know who I am. I know what I believe I know the truth and nothing's going to stop me. Youth, or what are your thoughts on that? Well, I, just relate my own experience really, when I come under attack. Now, it's usually a consequence of some press attention. Is it still disturbs me deeply and I'm very concerned about what the

consequences are going to be? No I've learned in my family has learned that, if we're careful and we write it out and we attempt to deal with it fruitfully and carefully that, likely subside within about two weeks and that public opinion will maintain itself on my side So that's it in the case I don't take it for granted- you think it's made right acting to the attacks somewhat. Less stressful, somewhat less stressful, but it still nothing that I wouldn't necessarily recommended to any one else. I mean noisome utility is watching yourself, go through it yeah. I don't. I would never wished on anybody and I don't even want to think about it, but if you do go through it I think you become it either

straw is you or it makes you much stronger because U r e? U You know the bogus lie, that you're dealing with you know if they're taking you down in such a way and it's kind of true I don't know. I think it would be easier in some ways if it's absolutely not true, it's hard to get her arms around things and save with I mean, do you know you feel like you're in a Hitchcock movie, where you you know where you're just surmounted needs its surreal but once you get through it in your on the other side and you ve made it you realize that is nothing but shadows and meares and smoke. It's nothing. Unless you give into it unless you play ball, unless you start to become part of it and put it back out in the other direction you know I was making any so you that

Yes, it was helping people deal with that sort of thing. When I a clinician that really allow, me too, the miracle of the presumption of innocence. So, for example, I have client, whose details all obviously disguise, who is a very competent, professional and This person had brought a substantial amount of work into a new company they had been hired by and then that, was taken by a the tory individual and asperse? and cast on this person's reputation. They describe them as unstable and unreliable and vengeful and vindictive, and partly supposed because the person whose had been stolen, was actually upset about it, but they produce very credible case and because The person I was working with was a good person with a strong conscience. It wasn't easy. For them to defend themselves because most people

In their attacked, especially if many people are doing it and many doesn't mean that many twenty is plenty twenty. Twenty five is probably plenty, but twenty is certainly a mob, a big enough mob it's very very difficult not to take accusations against yourself seriously, not not not you have a conscience because people who most people quite aware of their own flaws, and so attacked, and you think what is it possible that I am that son of a bitch you got money reclaiming, so have you to thank you you're a monster if you don't think that if somebody s attacking you, it seems universal you'd be, monster if he went away Domini Item and at what am I doing that give that appearance, or am I that person that's the kind of soul searching that you go through that, I think she stronger in the end,

if it works out for you and if you have support from people you know generally. What happens in my experience is generally, what happens? Is people came very rapidly and they apologize like mad if they haven't done anything wrong and I think that's a mistake. I understand people do it for me. I really do understand why people do it, but it it isn't. Don't think it's a good idea. If you haven't done anything, so that's the thing the presumption of innocence- and it really is a miracle right. Because if you think that No, if I accuse you, my tendency is to think that you're bad than you might think, while my tendency is to think that I'm good, but you know that the tendency for most people, people have a pretty guilty conscience. Almost everyone in a does tie itself up with this idea of monstrosity that you just described the only person for whom the companion, means nothing- is a psychopath right. Rest of us regulate ourselves by watching our impact on others and we're doing that all the time and generally, even if the

it is relatively trivial. I mean we're capable of denial and all of that, but generally we take. Are impact on other people very seriously and so The presumption of innocence is a very difficult thing even to apply to yourself, but it's it's unbelievably useful. It's like wait a SEC, you're innocent unless you're proven guilty. So I think I agree with you, but I think that if we- when I put this in today's terms, the idea of I'm not that we ve heard you know racist, racist, racist, spaghetti ever these name calling for so long that it is now It's now made that charge affable and end. Some people are deeply affected by, but most people are like yeah, whatever everything is racist now, what happens when you don't when you have so over exposed, and you ve called everything you know dangerous, bigoted, racist

what happens to a society when they lose the ability to. Point something real yeah That is the danger of casual critique. Isn't it is that you lose capability of pointing to actual danger when it exists the problem with with with with gerrymandering thee the borders around concepts. So I mean I think what's happening, what we're seeing now and I'm not exactly sure why it's happening, but it definitely is happening is, we are seeing a tremendous do increased interest in public institutions and institutions in general, and that's that not good because societies, Societies are healthy and prosperous to the degree that they run on trust and too it is a moral virtue which, in it in its essence. It's not naivety. You can naively trust, you're a fool when you naive, we trust, but your career. Just when you trust when you're, not naive and society? is that are functional run

trust, it's a catastrophe when its eroded- and that is happening now you know, is that happening? Why is how is that related to the constant assaults then our culture is taking. I can't put my finger on not exactly, I dont understand the relationship, but but this deep cynicism about our institutions is a real, it's a real problem. Its growing part of it is because thing have gone on too long. But a lot of it is smears and end intentional. Things and I dont know why you this keeps come into mine. As we ve been talking but the star wars, There is therefore there is Darth Vader all dressed in black. You know he's a bad guy. The minute he walks in Then you have the reluctant hero of of what's his name. Skywalker, maybe

and I have everybody else- you know that that are on the side of the empire. Are they doing out of fear, or do they actually believe it how do you get people? Because right now, I think we're looking at some things that are truly evil, and I use that word lightly. But, as I look it things like critical race theory, in only see dust auction out of that can't see any positive, telling people you'll never make it because this group of people are after you, so we to destroy these people and the people are you ready, mobile? I care, think of anything more evil good it. Well I in my writings in my speech, lectures I've tried to encourage people to deal with malevolence that

the level of the individual, because new start dealing with it and others you you there's a big risk in that. It's like clean up your own house, which is will write me. I've been parodied for that strike, will look at all the social problems in the world and Doktor Peters, is telling the oppressed to clean up the rooms. Slight cows that can solve anything is well. First of all, have you tried it? Actually, it's not that easy to clean up your right and its harder and as its a much easier to clean somebody else's room, Why, yes, or is certainly a lot easier to point to the mass in someone else's, you know, there's such a danger. There is such a danger in that and its attractive right to identify two localised malevolence externally it so attractive because, first of all lets you off the hook and that's a relief and second it feel you've identified, malevolence, there's nothing. You can do to what is malevolent, that's unjustifiable, and so your worst impulses have free rein because You say that in all likelihood that a good cause,

you say what this is in the service of the eventual utopia psych well now have Carte Blanche for your worst motivations and that's very, very dangerous, and so I always think that it's better to to stick. The psychological which so here's. What I think I want I was trying to drive at was you know you see it in these big movie terms, people seeing a big movie terms and you can't move. You know you're you're, either on this side or that's how you can't move and nobody moves. Nobody wants to recognize. You know they're on the wrong side, nobody's making case or just killing each other. There is a growth of the reluctant hero in all stories. There is this arc of that hero and they they something happens and they change and they become heroic, but they're not heroes. And so many people don't think that they have what it takes. They're, not the hero,

and in the people who were standing around or looking it's just following the crowd. How do you get or what's happening to us to. Where so many people are seeing. What's going on if they know history at all, they'll understand the pitfalls. It doesn't mean we end in the same place, but we could see the patterns repeating. How do you get? Paul too, recognize and then have the courage to stand you, taken of beating Nobody wants to do that. Why is it worth it and how do you get there well think it's! worth it, because the alternative, I believe the alternative is worse. I mean that that's why I think it's worth it. It's. What is the alternative? Make. To stay silent when you have something to say.

You know you don't know what it is within you that that that they require, is your voice right back. You feel I have something to say it's like what. Where does that come from exactly that ceiling that you have something to say: you're disgruntled at work and your choking on your own vile, because the situation is not just in your estimation, you're dying to say something, but you won't well you'll die? If you don't say it, maybe it today if a thousand cuts I dont like deferred punishment, I'd rather too it now and keep the future clean which is why I encourage people to have the fight now. Don T do not, to hide things in the form for later, because they grow and matter pesticides, it better to confront what you need to front when its small and when you have some possibility of victory. You talk about in your book. One thing that I think is.

Such a huge key to healing of ourselves, because you're right everything is personal. And we somehow or another have lost this and what we did is everything is political. In only did Is something I'll just interrupt you for one? Second, that the other thing that I do believe? The idea that everything is political is a very bad idea, because everything isn't political love is political religion isn't political, that we need separation between these domains and if everything is political. Then the political becomes contaminated with all such with all sorts of things that art in its proper purview and one The things that I see happening continually is that political, it takes the place of religious belief and so Caesar is Ellen. Into the position of god- and that is not a good idea- psychologically or or politically its- we

the a separation between church and state psychologically, just as we do in our society. So when everything political, political becomes religious and that's not good Let me look, let me switch gear, so I want to ask the question. I was gonna ass. Well, if he s which gearing this, because I think it's tied into this year- Have I read someplace that in one room in your house, maybe you're living rumour hallway or whatever you have real pretty. Mark propaganda, I am Soviet Union go ahead. Yes I had two hundred and fifty pieces of soviet realist roared, It's not hang in my house at the moment, but it was four years is Ike collected is well. I kind of I feel like. If you don't understand the darkness, you can't really understand the lightning. You won't see the

Because some of it did, the propaganda can be beautiful. The art can actually be beautiful until you hatchet to what it did. You know I mean, you know, Is that why you is that why you were attracted to that or why were you? There was one of the reasons. Well, some of it was summer was just sheer shock that I was able to purchase these items because when I grew up when you grew up, we have You never saw anything from the Soviet Union, I mean that was just impossible and it was so comical to me that I could buy portraits of marks on Ebay, It was some unlikely that that was the case. It was a miracle right. I mean my daughter bought me once a Karl Marx Door, Doll ETA, a scientific toys store and it was half price off. So she couldn't resist same kind right. It's the same kind of comedy. It's like really, I can buy, I can buy a picture of

Lenin and marks on the most free market, platform. That's ever been devised for next to nothing. How could I pass that opportunity up with a somewhat ironic and then I was interested in the artifacts themselves, the paintings in particular, because many of the paintings I purchased were very high quality paintings. Technically they had been. They had taken people months to make their huge. Like eight by ten, my my house, literally covered with paintings. Square inch? Virtually ceiling is well paintings everywhere, and they were very high quality. So technically they were very sophisticated, and there was a battle between the propaganda and art going on in the Kansas is all the time and I could see that and that was really fascinating because of time as we move farther and farther away from the Soviet Union, the r one out over the propaganda. So that we really something to see, and yet it has many more times sleep

many times it's the art that drags you into the problem. Yet then it as the art and the artist a drag you back out, yes, well it's it's a terrible sin for art to be subjugated to propaganda. To put politics: it's like this, subjugation of religion to politics, its it the lower subordinating the higher it's a Turkey is an ethical catastrophe and I was very interested in that in those paintings as well to watch that and to see it and so on right now there in storage, because we renovated our house and we're not exactly sure how to what to do now in, Inter Alia, what the world should portray because me, the time for that is past, perhaps no we'll see. But yes, I had many many paintings for years. You're. Your whole book is about what you just talked about in the art, the battle between the extremes,

that it is it's this it's this daily fight, I'm I'm fascinated by the contracting of wave worthy. The pendulum of you know the societal pendulum that keeps going from you know me me me to the collective it's the same thing over and over again and when we as a society, get it right, it's generally, You know five o clock to seven o clock, not nine o clock and three o clock It's that middle ground Is there a way to or is it are we destined to always or P Tipp? Ok There is a way that's why we have the instinct of the way an end. Marker for that is meaning. That's mark or so imagine that Euro Europe, biological organism must be scientifically your biologic organism, you're adapted to reality, your instinct that orient you in the world deep, deep

instincts way, underneath your cognition, they direct your cognition and ways you you can barely comprehend. And one of those deep instincts is the instinct of meaning, and so look. You know sure you do this sort of thing this conversing you do this for a living, at least in part. Now you know perfectly well that there is a difference between a high quality and a low quality conversation you can feel about you. You know when you're in the zone in the conversation- and you know, because you're completely compelled by what's happening time, This appears your attention is focused on the content, your generating some spontaneous responses, but your attention is very, very focused. You not thinking about anything else. Ok, what? Then? That's, because you you're because the conversation is manifesting itself to your deepest instincts as meaningful cave that meaning signifies that you're in the right place between chaos. In order that your Europe, able to maintain a certain stability of thought and outlook

but you're, introducing new information into that stable structure at the rate, that's optimal for you, and all of a sudden. You are in the right place at the right time and that's the marker. Because being in the right place at the right time, is women I think there are a lot of people that are agents of chaos and Antigua their agents of chaos, they are going for, they believe burn it all down others have been like this, that they, they believe their meaning, is something extraordinarily destructive without a k, a north marker, how do you do that use their own vineyards there right? You look one The things that I puzzled out along while back and tried to adhere to to the best of my ability was. Driven by exact The concern that your expressing,

because I realized that the end think for meaning is a genuine instinct in it. It underlies even our attention, its unbelievably deep. It's the deepest thing about us. Ok, but what about searches in the search for meaning? That's that Or orange millions and search stately spoke and well, I did, I would say, both of those both of those are there there's somebody independent, because the search for meaning is very motivating, but the experience of meaning is something in and of itself. We talked about that. Our relationship to the night sky, for example, right so ok, but Your objection was well. What is that meaning instinct goes wrong like yeah. What? If what? If how do you make it, go wrong, lie and see what happens because pathologies that instinct and then you're lost Sophie understand that there is anything more frightening than understanding that

because yours, yours, you're stability as an entity as a soul, is pendant on your relationship without instinct for meaning and if path that with deceit. You're, you will find yourself in the hands of things that you do. Not want to be in the hands of put it that way, but you. So if you're The argument today is there is no truth whose truth, My truth, your truth I think what you are saying. Is you find meaning in truth and if you are lying about something, then that's the the absence of truth. But what One recalls the truth. If you tell the truth to the best of your ability, then you can trust your instincts to some to some degree to the to the it is degree that your capable of, and then that can help orient you in the world properly. You can rely on your instincts if you dont pathology as the information that your feeding yourself,

Oh you know if you want to live in harmony with yourself, which you too assumed to be somewhat desirable rather than Riah hellish disharmony then do- feed yourself what's on indigestible and no don't warp the world around you with this. You know to be deceitful. Stored, merrily damaging and dangerous, and so two, because I would not go ahead good, Why? Because I realized that the instinct for meaning could become pathologies. That's what my me obsess to begin with about spoken. The spoken word with free speech, for example, You are also talking about what orients us in the middle, while the thing but the middle, is where the middle is shifts, because the environment around us shifts the natural world shifts the social world shifts, and so that middle moves on us, and so What we do is we talk? to each other, which is a form of thinking. Thinking is internalized. Speech so

The dialogue we're having is thought. If I'm thinking I just have that dialogue in my head by myself. It's still a dialogue between two points so we orient ourselves with trammeled, honest speech in a constant search to find that out dual middle ground, but it always move so we are destined in some sense to continually community. Eight about where we should be? That's for sure, but the idea that there's a desirable middle that we can attain through dialogue. Well, that's a presupposition of the Nazi, opposition of western individualism. It's also someone gets under attack conceptual right, I will say to me, then That's where we lose the middle when we are the collective. Or we are just isolated at me, me me and

You know when you're me me me, you generally don't leader if you know a mass murder, even oh as a country at all, do you don't round people up it's a little less dangerous, but that self absorbed view no nature of just there's. Nobody important, but me is also dangerous. But we ve lost, It seems in a country that should understand it in a society, the entire western society. That was, entirely built around the individual. We if we wish to seemingly missing it missing it and eyes into is an assault on not idea, like so If by the idea that our institutions are basically predicated on tyrannical power, so that's the! This is for institution organization is power, then you are you by the argument that dialogue between.

Institutions is nothing but the expression of that power. There are no individuals and there's no space for rational negotiation and That case is being made constantly only buy radicals on the left fundamentally anti individual there is no room in that system for free speech itself. It's not like it's anti free speech that that's a misconception. Something isn't the free speech, if it has no room whatsoever for the concept of free speech at a much deeper criticism and that part what's driving this identity, politics movement its! Salt on the idea of the individual word, the word itself. It's an assault on the idea of the redemptive power of the word itself, There's no individuals, there's no rational discourse. There's no possibility of meeting in a middle serves no middle there's just it oratory defined by struggles for power between groups. That's why

ok, not to invite someone who disagrees with you. They dont disagree with you, they represent different power structure and you might you have an opinion, but you don't you're merely mouthing the platitudes of yours social structure there is an individual not from that perspective. This more radical critique than people generally realize it goes. All the way to the bottom. That's why? we are finding ourselves in tribalism and most people don't even realize it. People both sides think their fighting for the good and they realize wait? Wait, wait, you're, you're entering tribalism, you're, just your job, parroting what your side believes Annie really solve anything. Until you can find the the? people who think in broad Values are virtues on the other side, and you can

together and say: ok, wait, wait, wait this makes sense to you it's like. Well, that's! I think we can have a conversation with You can have a conversation country. The only one is so good at right we had we had. Miss E Pluribus Unum, you know are yes, we came. We came here for one idea and that idea is enshrined in our bill of rights the individual Supreme Yan just blow it off. I don't necessarily have to like you were agree with you, but I support our fight to the death to have the right for you to say that we don't. That we don't have that attitude. I'd only ever hear that expressed ever. I grew appearing that all the time. Well, you know what you mean think, at least under some circumstances that its useful to have an enemy, because perhaps they could point out flaws that you wouldn't be otherwise prone to notice, and so there is just

dad level alone, their utility in free speech and dialogue across avenue of disagreement? You you want to approach the conversation ready to hold your fort, but not with the assumption that you're, absolutely right, meaning and its I remember I was on I'm gonna forget get the name of the show bill MA there we go good, got it wrong. No holes of might pockmarked memory and it was a pound composed mostly of people who were liberal and and left leaning, although not particularly extreme, but- Conversation degenerated into something like that, exchange of insults about people who are supporting trump. I'm a canadian rights? I'm gonna watch this from the outside at least some degree, and I thought I to listen for what I said. Well, how do you propose to live with these people since their fifty percent of the population. Like there also

but is that that's your theory? Is it really? That's your theory. There all stupid and you're not and you can live with and how we can do that with the problem that confronts us right now, look mostly bomb in the? U S! This statistics bear this out Absolutely clearly, there are very few radicals on the left or the right, it's a very tiny proportion of the population. Most people are moderate. Most people want to meet in the middle we have, some problems, though, we don't know exactly what to do with, for example, and I've really seen this in watched here, political system. I was shocked. I became what's familiar with Washington over the last few years, visiting their many times talking too many senators in Congress, people and I'm sorry shock. Well, it is Most of them were very admirable, mostly people. I met her very admirable, regardless of which side of the of the past The polar world, but I was shocked at the

lack of a coherent policy making apparatus for both parties. It just isn't there there's no, clear policy making apparatus there's no structure for generating policy. There's no messaging structure, there's no six Education in messaging delivery, the Congress people in the sender spend a disproportionate amount of their time raising money outside of their office, and there too, then we have to do that by their parties and and re. Acting to the worst excesses of the extremists on the other side of the table. That's a structural problem, it's too for so it's a structural problem in the manner I just described, but there's another problem to which is: what you want about the extremists, here's what they ve got going for them there. The story and its romantically attractive. What are you gonna do mean that Taliban story well. So, it's up the ladder and Democrats what's their story, and so we can criticise

the moderate Democrats. You guys need a story, that's better than the radicals. You don't have what, but the same reply absolutely to the moderate conservatives and then not going to point fingers at the moderate conserve resort Democrats, I'm gonna pull back and say no. This is our problem. Here we are technology please sophisticated wealthier than we ve, been at any point in the entire history of the planet, with an all most unlimited future ahead of us if we can grasp- and we don't know what to do- but what position so, but does this stem from. Aren't we pray to this The most important chapter of your book, I think I think it's the last one to be grateful in Did I ever tell everybody complain about Covin I could complain a lot about covered. A lot of bad has come out of it for my family and my business. However,

my family is closer than ever. You know we spent time together. We re king eyes the importance of things because of the absence of other things, we went gosh. What have we been doing? This is much more important, so you can look and be grateful for horrible things, horrible things, my brother in law, just committed suicide can be grateful for that sperience of going through that in being reminded of that in what's important and and you can fly in gratitude, but now what we're doing is just finding axes to grind where we blaming it. I think it's, I think it's one of the things we lost when we became a code, sure that was driven by the city's, not by the farmlands you can

Farmer, I'm a farmer, parttime farmer! You can be a farmer, you can do absolutely everything right. You can plough the field you can plant at the right time. You do everything you could have the greatest crop common in, because you ve done everything right. Then you cut that crop, as its lying on the ground. He can rain and it's all destroyed, don't blame anybody, it's just part of it. I mean it happens. Sometimes we looking for blame on everything right now in in chapter eleven of beyond order is new book that you been referring to. Tried to delineate out sources of tragedy and malaria, for that matter, but we can start with tragedy because need a theory of tragedy because where's. You tend to blame simplistically, vocation we could walk through very quickly. You just talked about one particular kind of tragedy which is natural like

you can do everything right in nature can take you out at the knees right. Ok, so that's one source of suffering in life, the natural world. Another source of suffering is the fanatic inadequacy of our social institutions. The third source of tragedy is our inadequacy as individuals, and you can see level and doesn't apply particularly to the natural world. Although we can feel like that at times, if someone you love, is afflicted by some terrible disease, for example- and we to think about is particularly malevolent when we admire the moral stature of the person so affected right. It somewhat unfair to a tribute malevolence denature. It's me fair to attributed to social structures and its or fair to attribute to the darkness in our own souls, but you. To know. You need to know thank, you need to know You need to have a sophisticated rep.

Adaptation of tragedy in malevolent so that you don't fall prey to simplistic blaming, so human suffering is not caused by capitalism. That's wrong! Now you could say there are. Months of human suffering that are exaggerated by access is indeed fault in capitalism. It's a different statement. That's not a black and white statements, a reasonable statement. You can progress from there, but you should perhaps at the same time that for all its faults, this is the good that it's done and it isn't obvious what system would work better. So. Now the question, I suppose part of the question is: why do we fall prey to more simplistic forms of reasoning and that is. It's convenient. It's easy inconvenient, it's easy because it's easier to think in black and white terms to just the trip

malevolence. So, for example, if you believe that all human suffering is a consequence of capitalism that solves lotta problems for you, you know where malevolence is. You know, your moral duty? Is you simplified the world? You ve taken a huge burden off your shoulders. And you certainly don't have to take on the what moral requirement of participating in the system, and perhaps you dont want to God only knows why that might be. I want this more nuanced approach and that was actually part of the purpose of classical education. Humanity's education was designed to give you a more nuanced view that its original purpose, although that is you know, sadly, I would like on by the wayside. It looks like it. I've had conversations recently there have been quite interesting. You know that very disturbing. Actually I talk to two of Canada's most outstanding people in the last two weeks, Conrad Black, who ran a huge newspaper empire and Rexroth

whose probably candidates best known journalist personality, because he's bulks screen journalists, but he's a personalities well and they remembered their university education. Java willing as well on he's, not a Canadian, but he had the same kind of memory he talked about. They talked about there, their education in the humanities most be concentrating on english literature and described. With tremendous fondness as a turning point in their life as an opening up of of the world of knowledge to two two due to their youthful eyes right very very far in the car, rested that with your me park, who was an escape? You isn't escaping from North Korea, very brave woman who was then enslaved in China had a life with just sheer how and spend a good part of the interview telling me how much better her life was then of many people she knew she wrote. Called in order to live, but the books

in the year two thousand and fifteen, so I asked her what she did she went to Colombia took you may, these degree, which was a dream of hers after finishing your highs, her entire education in one year, you know her, educational, our universal right. Exactly then, she went to a south korean University for three years. They are hard to get into and then she went Colombia. I said what was like going to Colombia. Taking humanity's degree from this scale be from totalitarianism, who was once enslaved, got to go to one of America's August institutions and be trained in the humanities. Someone who'd been exposed to George Orwell and who was motivated to right because she read animal farm. Stood the power of literature, she said it was a complete waste of time and money and then she was afraid to say anything. Why? yeah well, it's we think the here when you're university, professor, I thought how

this traffic. How actually catastrophic that that can be the case, she she comparative to being with Korea I said. Surely surely there was one professor one course that provided you what you were searching for sure not for a while and cons biology course where she learned about human evolution but said that that degenerated into political correctness, by the end of this semester as well, I can leave it here. I know we are freaking we're really over time, but he can't leave it with that story. We do you find the hope and the strength to continue to fight or for those who are listening to the motivation to stand up and say what's on their mind? Well, people have to have a dialogue with their own conscience. You know if you, if you don't

imagine that you get upset with something when you recognize an obstacle in your path and then imagine that you need a path and that you ve chosen reasonably wisely. Let's say not perfectly: but reasonably wisely and all Google arises you're frustrated, disappointed, ashamed afraid something to do to clear up dogs to go. You have something to say: well, then you don't clear out the obstacle because you're afraid to speak, or you are unwilling to speak. You want to defer the conflict because you hope will go away while that happen is that obstacles will pile up, life will be nothing but obstacles. What did you know that you and you have to ask yourself if you believe that's true, true. Then you don't you don't want to remained silent. If we could imagine to that. As you remained silent, you get smaller because not manifesting the courage necessary to live by your own standards, the problem gets bigger, if you're not going to speak now. What makes you

think you're going to be more prepared in the future. They're going to happen windows that ever happened can't believe we were talking about school. People who say just quiet in school, just get the grade, you're about to hang them wrong, you're wrong, you're, you're paying them. You don't have the courage when you're paying when somebody's paying you and they're doing something at work, and they want you to play along. You think you're gonna have courage. Then I mean you got to face it, your tabs open all the time to never never right something they didn't believe to be true. And I know this is a psychologist. Do you know you might think you, can get away with writing out something I dont believe for the grade and oh, but but there are, studies of this sort of phenomenon. So for imagine you have a viewpoint and I measured out with a political attitudes questionnaire. Ok, maybe it's a viewpoint you're Europe, europe-

but what do we take? You're, you're, anti immigration, just for the sake of argument and I ask you to write out a five hundred were pro immigration essay and then week later, I give you the political question arrogant now I'm gonna buried in a bunch of other question here, so you don't know what I'm measuring you're believe tilted way towards the argument that you made, even though you dont know it so, and its people most of your beliefs are actually rather shallow. In terms of their explicit formulation. You think you believe something, but it's pretty shallow. It's just an assumption. Now you might act on it in all of that, but it's not well differentiated and articulated. Now, if you one of your assumptions new right, a counter example. You can take late. That well then- it's gonna move you, and so, if you think that you can write an essay that you I believe- and you remain unscathed by that well you're wrong. You

and if you do it twenty times, you will turn into what you wrote. That's what will happen. And it's an absolute sin. In my estimation I mean that specifically for any. Anyone who attends university to write what they do not believe to be true. It certainly assent for anyone to encourage them to do that. Now, you can do that as an exercise. You can ask people to delineate out an argument that runs contrary to their viewpoint? That can be part of the reasonable process of learning. Right now is not the same thing is doing it for deceptive purposes to manipulate you're professor, because you're too cowardly to formulate your arguments properly, and I mean I blame the professors for setting up an environment where that is implicitly spected, but I will tell you my experts within the university system, is that it's, the rare professor still, whose

corrupted they're, going to severely punish a student who writes an essay that runs counter to their opinion. That's a good essay and and fail them. Then little lighted interruption. Yes, you still say: that's the abnormal circumstance yeah. I do believe that that are still the abnormal circumstance, so it takes Lord of corruption, to do that in Spain. To have quality right, doktor, professor, You really appreciated you have an extraordinary voice. I don't know if I share this with you last time I saw you we're any encouragement, and I saw my I saw my son was with me- And I don't know if I told you this twenty minutes into an I leaned over, and I said What are you getting from this and he said I know-

No, if I understand any of it, but it's fascinating kind of felt the same way it could he eat it. You are a breath of fresh air that you don't talk to. To people, you expect them to come up a level and and think deeply, and that is very rare and pray for you and God bless YO thanks. Very much for the discussion, just a reminder I'd love you to rate and subscribe to the podcast and has his own to a friend, so it can be discovered by other people.