We are going to speak the unspeakable, tough to do. We live in a world that no longer values. Courage. A world that rewards cowardice. Oh, so brave, so brave. It's really important to recognise the people who will stand up for what is right and today's gas has courage, is a columnist for the Washington Post Political analysed for CNN, Why would I have him on because he speak. The truth he's an award winning journalist and when I say journalist I mean he's one of the few people who can actually call themselves a journalist his allegiance is not to the right or to the left, but to the truth. Until recently, roughly about the time Joe Biden took office, Questioning the origin of covert nineteen was completely forbidden code, began with a bat, was in a wet market and anyway, who challenge that was quickly.

able to conspiracy, theorist well too Please cast was not intimidated. He questioned, he challenged Ben to China. His courage has paid off he doc The whole twisted story in his latest book chaos under Heaven, Trump Z, the battle for the twenty first century, if the guy, This test of courage is the willing to sacrifice he's past. Please welcome Josh Rogan right now here in Amerika, we have a tremendous opportunity in front of us. If we are homeowners, if you own your own home, now more ever, you can save money when you need it most, maybe one hundred dollars two hundred five hundred, possibly up to one thousand dollars a month, all you have to do is refinance your mortgage. If your mortgage is three and a half four percent do now, wait too long to call american financing

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so Josh when we first spoke about co bid. We, Were you were exposing the possibility of a lab leak? Then we spoke when found she I think, lie Doran Paul. Would you agree with that I don't know what its intentions were, but he definitely said things that were false in the old that way. In my day that was called. I know words. He could just be totally wrong doubtful now, China this week is saying the virus is man made? we made it and send it over. There is

that, where we are in agreement, I happen to believe that the origin the story of how we got into this pandemic is the biggest story in the world in the most screwed up story, in our public discourse in its for number reasons that you and I have discussed, including the fact that Our leading scientists like Anthony Valley have destroyed It and Miss led the merit people as to what was our relationship with these will harm labs, also because Ninety Communist party puts out like a series of EV. Changing propaganda lines that any sense on their face, including the one that you just mentioned, that it came from the United States at Fort Dietrich or some other such nonsense, including the fact that Democrats refused. Wine congressional investigations on earth, the origin, the virus, including the fact that the Bite administration will release the intelligence, including the fact The media is screwed up the story by DR

a false narrative, which was that the lab league theory was a conspiracy theory for a year before admitting that it wasn't but failing to exist and how they got it wrong and so it real. Is a failure of all of our public institutions in a grand way that were struggling to scratch. Your way out of right now, and so I think it so important to emphasise as the first. While this is not a political question. Origin, the krona virus has nothing to do with whether you're dead, greater Republican has nothing to do with whether you like Trump or you. Don't lay tromp it's a crucial bit of history and a crucial of scientific information that tells us what we need. To do to make sure that we don't have a pandemic every two years and This is why I think that we're nowhere. You know, despite the fact that after a year and a half, finally, we can have a discussion on a party. About the lovely very without getting cancel. That's nice! Don't get me wrong. That's bad! Then it was a year ago, but in terms of actually uncovering the truth of how we into this disturbing in reality that seven billion people are living through that still going on

No we're know where there is no real investigation partially, because the Chinese Why allow it in a partially because the? U S government will push for it is. It is phenomenal to me that they still wonder why some people won't the vaccines If you ve been lying to us in one fashion or another, for the last year and a half you at them? the beginning, you can say well, we didn't know. We just didn't know this. We didn't know that we were all kind of in it together, but we are all in it together v the big corporations, one the little guy was screwed. Some became little many dictators in different states. The mask was good than the mass was bad than the mass was good and then twenty max you had a week I mean it. Crazy. We have Every institution either, lied or covered or

just smarmy, every single institution in the United States that was involved in this. What do you expect? a group of citizens to do, of course, their people. They don't believe you well right. I happened in TAT, Do you agree with everything that you just said? All of our institutions failed all of our medical Lee, is all of our government leaders are media leaders. They felt this the first responders they perform. Are we only get it to do so and, They are the true heroes of the pandemic. Everyone else- and you know I was trained as mainstream media journal- seventeen years to trust the scientists right about what you would think, but then the shocking to people to learn that oh wait, a minute scientists, even public health officials, are our human beings? and sometimes they make mistakes, and sometimes they have conflicts of interest, and sometimes they actually lie. and sometimes there actually corrupt- and you know sorting through those things is supposed to be the job of the media, but it failed because we, the media, got caught

it remains for me to get caught up in its own war. With the right wing, media and its own war with the Trump administration. Would you get has nothing to do with the origin of the corona vice it has thing to do at the lab leak, various just watching and being Washington and getting caught up in its own. Yes, and you know it's one. To say that, ok in the first months of the pandemic, we can excuse a lot of those mistakes. Lotta people getting sick. There was a lot of confusion. There is a lot of misinformation. I get that, but here we are eighteen months into this, that a year the half after the outbreak Not only is there no sort of accounting military there's no even sort of man, but to say that, ok, while we, our institution screwed up with it, too late. We actually have the still do the work of together on fighting the virus and then also coming together figuring out what happened- and you know that, like I said before, that not going on, and you know again, there's plenty of land to go around and there's plenty of planes still go around, but I don't blame

go out there in in the country who look at all of these records of mistakes and the lack of accountability and saying why I believe you I happen to believe the vaccines people should get the vaccine, but I can't point people for not trust in it. They felt you when he says get it, because the fact is that there are some bad faith in some good faith. tax on it that not every attack on him is valid, but some of them are and the on that. I agree with happened to be the ones about how he is thwarting. investigations and distracting people I'm looking into this level theory and there's a reason that he is doing that and the reason is because in this case he has a conflict of interests. I don't believe in this daisies a bad person was trying to the world sick. I think he has a conflict of interests. His research is tied to those labs. He helped fund those that doesn't mean funded the virus. It just means that he was indeed with them and he was giving our money to them and but he was always but obviously but they, but he also did give money

were the for the research that may have led to this virus its acts really, but this is where I sort of think that you know, as we are talking about before you know he, he could give you a scientific or an academic explanation for why? That's not it in other words, whether or not so but that's not the point. The point is that is not whether or not the specific contract lit the pandemic. The point is that then, if you was in charge of a system that was transferring huge amounts of scientific knowledge interviews risky that have no oversight and no transparency in a crisis, and it was his duty and responsibility to keep an eye on that to oversee that. To make sure you knew what was going on labs that the? U S, was finding and you won't even answer basic questions about how can we a society where public officials are above questioning by Congress by them dear, where they can,

tell all of us to go pound sand and for help. The chinese government, in fact fort. Again into the pandemic? I think this is a case that I haven't seen I'm, is seen anything like this, probably since Nixon where the cry is not as bad as the cover up. It found, she would have come out early and said yap. We we're doing work with the lab. Here's what happened it may have been a problem. And I take responsibility if he would have done that right away. I think Americans would have accepted him and said: ok all right, but because of this weird cover up, I don't think there's gonna be any forgiveness in the end, if we ever find out right, the reason that not just Anthony factually, because I think, there's a guy, but people, including Frances COM, as the head of the National Institutes for health periods as the head of,

no health alliance and several other people who were in the bay this of working with chinese labs to dig up racism play around with them. Ok, and that is their business, and that is their industry, and I think the reason that they don't want that business to be thoroughly investigated as a possible source of the pandemic is because there are looking to Europe. that business greatly and if you just read what Anthony Faulty sediment times about a week ago. He said we're going to billions of more dollars of U S, taxpayers money in order to greatly expand our digging up of viruses all over the world and then bringing them back. The lives including lives in China, and that's it when he was to double the size of Organization you monster, his theory is We didn't do enough of this research and One thing is: ok. Well, should we find out if this research, because the bend them before we expand its

old correct. What are we at least equally investigation? It's not to accuse Anthony found. You have started the pandemic. It's a hey you're! You now admit began kingly about you, dont know what was going on in these chinese labs? That's what the intelligence shows. That's what the trumpet minister Asian released on January fifteenth that about immigration? is that they had another side of the lab beside that they worked on with the chinese millet but where they were doing the Krona virus research, they didn't tell Anthony algae about. So I can't believe it. If algae. When he says, ok, we didn't find the pandemic. That's not the point. The point is that you didn't! Do your job to overseer collaborate! Heavies, lobbies that in the crisis, tell us to go squirrel selves and if you think about that problem, if you have to ask yourself gay: well, is it a good idea to contain? new, throwing? U s money into these labs, especially We can't even get in when they want even less in the door when the krona virus, panting pandemic, bricks, on the doorstep and Anthony values, answered Tibet on CNN, always go? Was yes, he said? Yes, we have

the demon. So why would we do this in Japan? If we want to do it, you know it. its high, could you know The council's unsafe nuclear power plants are just look at Chernobyl. No, that was tat was made by the Soviet Union. That's that's a good case to say nuclear power is dangerous. The Soviet Union was dangerous and sloppy. Right same thing. They say I you know If we want to do this, research then do it ourselves in do it right, let's farm it out to somebody where we don't have any kind of. Why me? Why are we moving it to China. Well, originally, a lot of it was moved China just for that. is it you know the environment, minister and banned gain a function researching twenty fourteen lobbies. the sponsor in a country that doesn't have that ban, and then, when you think about it, ok, well, then there are the we

had cables and twenty eight deem. It told us that you, as the provides visit about what those lives and said they were, too risky, and that they were not following the pro safety standards and that they were doing research went bankrupt viruses and how they could affect humans, they essentially told us if the lovely theory is true, that it was that, could have been at that very lab in our policymakers. Failed okay and that's because we but the scientists in charge of overseeing the scientists and that's because, when the above it, when the problem, straight and actually lifted the pause. The rules under which lifted. It would devised by the Energy agent Anthony Faulty and that's why Anthony Vouchers, stand in front of ran policy. I didn't break the rules because he wrote the rules and he knows the loopholes and drove a truck through those loopholes and now bragging about those loopholes and now is asking for more money to experiments loopholes, and I can think of

Think more dangerous again, if the lovely various true or even if it's not true, because what we now know is that these chinese lives can be trusted. We now know, and even Anthony Factory begrudgingly admits that there are not doing up in actually they're doing what they're doing for the party, because in China, science is run by the party, in China, scientists only say what the parties tells them to say or they die or they get jailed in this or disappear, or, worse, ok and so Anthony, felt, is not charge of yours, China, relations and this. Is why? Because it's not just the scientists, you it's not it's. It's a national security issue and where do we all know research? Can we know that when the head of the men a Terry's biological weapons programme, was you were running it I mean clear. You know you have this. At all, and this is a detailed extensively in my book. Chaos under Heaven, which it which I wrote in the middle of this pandemic and in detail

What happened inside the job administration was that the national security said we have a problem here and this might, come from the lab and we need to look into it and the health she'll said no way, don't worry about it and the changing things, drunk dont know where the worry about it, and then they threatened Lena states and said if you want your ppp and masks. This was in the first Muslims. dammit you shut up about these labs and then they went around the world than did the same thing bribing in Corsica, threatening countries all over the world, there's a reason that the chinese government cover up is centred around the labs right. There's a ring, they won't let anybody to the labs that baby squashed all the science their censoring all their scientists. Any journal who said anything different was jailed or disappeared, and so, if you there's a ton of people inside the national security community including its either trope administrative courts, animates alarm, but they were it down and then, when it burst into public awareness, the media the sight of the scientists and this led by you know I'd combination of sort of sir

bias and Anti Trump bias and compromise and by us and you know, sick laziness and competence that runs most of the mistakes in the mainstream media of youth to this day I mean I've worked in when I worked in eight different mainstream newsrooms. Ok, it's not really are concerned, It's, it's usually just group think in incompetence, exactly ran. I think a lot of these newsrooms followed Peter Dashing Anthony found, you told them, you know, don't write it think about the lovely theory, that's crazy and they can admit that they got shared by their own sources that actually they didn't their jobs, and you know they don't want to get dumped on by the right wing medium, the mega media, but you know I'm Part of the mainstream media have no problem admitting. When is something wrong and when the right wing media got something right and it's this evening with trumpet you read my book, you'll see that there is some praise of drop in there's some criticism of drop. None of our there is our public figures are infallible. We don't

in a society where we have dear leaders in Supreme leaders and kings. Prince is right. We live in a society rule by men right and with systems of over right and accountability and that's what broke down here because of those systems didn't want admit that even people like any felt she could make mistakes could have flaws, could have come. Of interest, but that's the reality and that what we have to so through right now, I think the Bite administration is ready to come on add to that. Frankly, Bastile Wanna just throw They are well whenever figure it out that we're going to see when they have this ninety day, intelligence review. You know, first of all, what the intelligence community. How can we have the intelligence community? its own failure right. Think of the family. That's ongoing, and if you really articles about this review its really crazy and knocking because what they always say as well: the intelligence, it is starting to look at a bunch of dad They didn't look at from the war on labs until last month and to me

strikes me as why didn't they look at it? He? Why is it? Why did it take em, eighteen months, get their own data. I am in every article we ll see about this reason. The next thing we'll say invariably will be well, it's really. A lot of stuff and Willie Unaware that are really no to make? They don't have any chinese speaking. You know scientist, intelligence guys to which my reaction is. Why not? What does that mean spirited eighty billion dollars a year on these agencies? They don't have any chinese speaking. Scientists analysts. How did they miss that and that that what that leads you to the inevitable conclusion that this war lab thing again. We don't know if it's true, I'm just saying: we need to check it out. Why can't we check it out, don't tell me not to check it out, but if it is true, it's the biggest intelligence failures in I don't know nine eleven and WMD put together. It mean but we ve been spending our national security budget. Ten times. That of the rest of the world will bind on the wrong stuff one Targeting jihadi is in Yemen and being on watching a bunch of risky labs run by the

these military right so where the pandemic broke out, but of intelligence community but no, I was just as say that this is this: what happens and it is a scandal. But that's what happens when the group think if you will all says that China is the is the mean a model for the you know the next generation. and they're not really enemies, and we gotta work together with them and see their point of view. No that, I mean there's a growing number of Americans that are very, very clear. China is not the friend of humanity, free humanity, not just the United States, but freedom itself and We are just what we ve been playing footsie with amendment we, selected a guy who's son is deeply in bed with the child

the Communist Party, what are we doing? You know I blame you for in that way, because it really is the exits, the real challenge of our time in is not the same as the cold war, but it on the scope and scale of a cold war. And by wait. A cold war is not the worst outcome of the grand company and which are not Wordsworth do in order to have that what I say is that we have to do more to confirm the problem now that, inevitably of as you look through history, totality and pseudo religious, Jim, sidle expansionist dictatorships expand until confronted Invariably it happens every single time, and so by ignore the problem, we actually make the situation much more dangerous and that's why I think you saw the drop administration, a lot of different people, a push for a turn of events, in foreign policy, but the mind administration to its credit, has continued the problem. Is that we're moving too slow and yes, as you point out now, there's the sort of counter argument. China's my tent

Tal there. Only six we talk, so we can all go to sleep again, don't worry about it and to me that seems that that is driven by the corruption of people in the business class. The Wall Street Elite Making money off of funding are money and technology to china- some of it is the simple fact that you know alive. these communities have woken up to the realisation that our collaboration with China is being weapon America? It doesn't matter if we think engagement and cooperation. wonderful and that's going to cause the chinese government. Liberalized economically and politically, a member going to become just like us. China does it feel Waging pink doesn't think that way. We know it because that's what he says. Ok- and we have this like you know a crazy discussion China in Washington, where no one listens to what cheating ping says and what he says is very clear that he wants to show a world order to make it safe for China to achieve its dream.

and that dream includes making the world safer, autocracy, repression and all sorts of male fees That affects us in our daily lives and if you're sitting at home, wondering if you're gonna get the krona virus, you haven't senior ram weather in a year than you know that somehow we can debate how much that that what what happens in China affects us. The pandemic should have made clear to every single human being about what happens in China relates to as it affects, national security in our public health, and if you can't clobber, it on a pandemic, and we can't because they are telling us to go score ourselves. When we asked to go into battle they haven't met is right next to the opera. Which had all the background of viruses and where they were doing all the background of irish research taken. We look inside that land no goes for yourself. If you can collaborate on What can we collaborate on one thing that we're supposed to collaborate, climate change? Well to be honest with ourselves, China's build coal plants lot faster than the rest of the world combined. You know human rights, I don't think so, their committing a genocide, trade

no it doesn't look like that's gonna work, either. Oh, how a pandemic prevention. Well, they just show us in very clear terms that that's not gonna work, either they're gonna weapon eyes are when it gets us if they can and our job is to protect ourselves and to protect the american people, and if we can do that, collaboration with free and open societies around the world. That would be great too. About a year and a half ago that I brought rough greens home to Udo and might is a completely different dog. Now I hear from people all over the country all the time. I've had the same experience. They heard me talk about rough greens on the programme and you know a lot of much as I would be their sceptical, but they get limit from a free bag from rough greens for their dog and assume as sprinkle it on his food, the dog Wolf sit down it's good for its chock full of vitamins and minerals and probiotics and a mega oils all the things that make your dogs healthy.

My dog was easy from the first time he tried rough greens. Una was in love, some I might take a little bit of time to get used to the new flavour doktor Dennis Black he's. The inventor of rough greens doesn't want you once you two not try it because of so. He's got a special gift available right now, a free bag of rough greens for your dog to try out o you pay for shipping is gonna rough, green. Dot, com, slash back or call ether three Glenn thirty, three, eight three, three Glenn thirty, three rough greens- dot com, slash back! So what's it going to take? If not this, what's it going to take? You know, I think First of all, what I say is that you know we have to understand that The China issue in our politics is getting hyper politicized to our detriment, and we have to understand that you know what is actually going to take is for both sides

politics an hour an hour and our society to come together on what is actually the share. Probably I realise that a tall order, ok, but what I He is that these debates over headed with a China that is increasingly expansionist, aggressive, repressive and interfering in our lives are are taking place, not just in Washington, but in academia and the Tec sector are street in our in our support. in Hollywood rain. Neither all these major industries are affected by this easy bees strategy, a mine behaviour, and we all need to start talking to each other about it. We all need to start finding we overlap internal? We where we go head right, we can't find those places because if we disagree, were hate mongers, bigots racist. Whatever I mean, how do we? How do you have the conversation with the I fell or the NBA about China when they'll ban Amy one from saying the truth about China and

its turned around on people at gorgeous aimed or can we just talk about the facts here is your turned out right. They're doing the chinese government work for them right. It's a perfect example, because when, when the NBA got punish to the tune of form, million dollars for one tweet, Morton tweet against I stand with Hong Kong, want I quitted there and they were, but all of a sudden hundred million dollars of their revenue disappears in a second that was a wake up. Call ok maybe not for Adam Silver right, maybe not Joseph sigh, who is that the owns the nets and is an ally Bob Founder, but for millions of Ebby fans who realizing that instant, that you know if we want to preserve our freedom. Here in Amerika, we have to stand up to China exporting its report, an ardour shores. Now, of course, the be a totally screw that, but what I say is that ok, we'll be MBA is not actually a foreign policy organization and rather than

gone them. What if the government went in and said, hey, listen, NBA, rather just bashing on you for doing the wrong thing, which you clearly did. What, if we offer to use our diplomatic power and our economic sanctions and always to stand with american corporations, to tell this easy Pino, you screw you, you can't punish be a for once we're not gonna stand for what, if we brought to get rob leagues that chinese people like to enjoy and they together. I know we are people get what they want or you'll have no MBA in China, and then you'll have to when's your own people. Why Lebron James is no longer coming to town of these are ways that the public and private partnerships could be established. We're not doing then, of course, because we're not sophisticated enough and our policy in our discussion, which leads me to the next way that we sort of get at this, which is to have conversations like the one. We're having right out when this conversation right. This is an hour and a half of thinking about this problem in a non partisan, non political way right. You and I come from different parts.

the media environment different part, I'm sure we have different ideologies on various. It doesn't matter because on this issue you- and I both as an essential truth, which is that this is a problem that can allow to be ignored that we're it's gonna take the entire country and our entire I need a rap. Our heads around it doesn't mean we're all to overreact doesn't mean we need to rush into toppling this easy pay it means that no law Where can we countenance the part of our political discourse, which says never mind it doesn't matter you can the c c p not going to take over the world and we can just let it go because it's clean to everyone that I talked to win rolling out this book and I talk to people on the left and right. I went from Europe the Steve Ban and I don't care- say the same exact thing which that is this. Is it Eric and problem, this is a problem of free in societies battling what is rising, danger and a rising threat and yeah. It's it's a complex problem. This will require,

solutions that make they have costs are met, have risk cement, Force America's sort of choose between competing interests and go against our sometimes instinct to map maximal ass proof, in a really difficult conversations I'll tell you when Trump first put the sanctions on them? I was not I'm not a fan of sanctions. I don't, like you, know, trade barriers. But I call them and said I to tell you what you are doing with China I believe I am saying this, but it's right you're, the first one is actually taking a tough stand again China, every single one, republican and Democrat have bowed to china- and want to get into a war with them. I am eating. You know against China except one, you're living through, what is probably going to end up being another holocaust and will all go gee. I didn't know when

clearly. No, I don't want a war with them, but I also don't want them to rule the world and what they did with a p p ease what they're doing with with five g, if I'm not mistaken, that is what they traded for right, will give me the peas, but your owing to take waterways. Five g explain why that so bad. Yet that's what happened in Brazil and and again yet we The goal here is to avoid the conflict with China that neither side seeks to find it, commendation whereby they can have their country. Does me we're gonna shut up about their human rights, but that were primarily concerned with how they operate in our societies that were primarily concerned with protecting ourselves and ensuring that we have the same national security and public health and economic freedom and prosperity that we, where that we have had this whole time more or less, and that the Chinese. party has not agreed to that there, They are not on board that when they are not convinced, despite the tariffs, despite the sank,

despite all the public condemnation, we have to be honest about the fact that nothing has. Their calculus so far, and there is a risk of up this escalation ladder right that we have to be conscious of, but that still not an excuse to ignore the problem you know and when comes to China's actions a world where did in Brazil was they said. If you want your shot, you have to take our waterway and Brazil folded right, because how could they deny their people lifesaving kitchen in a crisis, although I would just say that the chinese shots are largely really, that's good, especially gets delta best a separate issue. What they did in in Paraguay was. They said you have to drop diplomatic recognition of Taiwan, in other words, there Marty doesn't just operate in its economic interests. It it threatens the black countries in its political interests or gay and that's a different kind of problem and of the Paraguayan said. No screw. You can't do that, but at the same time, because that government a greatly and those people to suffer greatly so their torturing.

Blackmailing countries, they punish Australia in the middle of a pandemic by shutting down its b. and wine imports, which is like forty percent of their their agricole we'll me in the middle of amending for asking about the covert origins. Ok, that's a capricious form of cruelty. the world is seeing now is that China's Everyone thinks all America, not superpower, that's no good! I look at all the mistakes that we ve made like hey. I agree with that. Ok mistakes have been made right, for. I get that people are sick of military interventions. I totally you know we may differ- differ on the exact policies. But I there is no doubt that mistakes have been made an American agent around the world, but things are getting at current here last. Twenty is essentially a lot of. It is because of american intervention, one way or another, but here's the crazy thing, the alternative, a Chinese world order is much much. My oh and I think that's what that's what people are figure out to realise, and that doesn't just apply,

free and open societies. If you're in Africa, for Latin America and Europe, and in on your country survival to pretend that, like them your genocide doesn't exist, that's its opposition to be, and we should be more active and engage in most countries. We should learn from the mistakes of the twentieth century, but the bottom is that a chinese world order is a very scary world to live in a world where not only are or are we not able to sort of practice are, are what we call our way of life, you know, ability to speak freely entered did too but we have a world where the chinese model would be exported a package of authoritarian tool, surveillance in a high in prisons, in monitoring that they will sell, need dictator who is willing to purchase suppose will just give it to them. and we, see many examples of that all over the world. That means millions and millions more people in horror we'll suffering on our watch, and we should care about that. Let me

back to the corona virus. For a second, you mentioned the the delta virus. Being worse, the the bat, lady has come out and said? Oh, there is much worse than that coming Do your thoughts on this and what would what is coming in Why should we listen to the bath lady right? Well, we tackle has question first, because you know that after shares wrongly, who ran the backbone of irish research. Still, does it love and is due to biology for fifteen years, has been the woman put out to talk to the international committee The problem is twofold: one as we read before, if you Has anything that counteracts the party line? the jail, we never see her again in her family. Go still. She knows that right, so she could We really say the party line, but to is that what she has said hang actually is demonstrably fall. in some cases and in other cases, is at odds with what the

government saying in other words she's lying in some cases it up cases should calling the? U S, government liars, so picking through all of that and understand it through the lens of the Chinese Communist Party. Propaganda operation is an interesting project in and of itself, but all gets us too, you know to spare the viewers. The details of this by a mat lie is that we can trust what doktor she she says, okay, and we can't you what the lab says, because again, if they say there being we're gonna die, so we just have to, understand that, but there the or of what she sang, I think is in this particular instance is true, which is that we are only in the what for third or fourth wave and there will be many more coming in the longer that this festers where's the various will get in the early. The opposite does

Well, if we ask love, that's a good point cause if U S, Robber, Redfield the who is that of the city, see who went on CNN in February and said that it probably came to the lab and then disappeared. Rang he's like a myth that this protection programme, whereas that I he gets CNN says. Not only do I think the virus. from the lab, because I know what's going on in my lab member he's a virologist unlike Anthony Patchy Immunology, unlike Peter Debt, Colleagues, you allergist virologist Robber Redfield, said I think it came from the lab because of the way it acts, because a super virus that acts this way that so that came out so transmissible to humans and is even that much more efficient. A dangerous must be humans, as a group, as it mutates indicates that somebody tinkered with it. That's what he said. M m. They call them a racist and he got cancel. Neither god- and you are we her from him since so I think you are saying- is that a lot of them? country is again more and more scientists are coming out now. It is just to say first of all,

there's no way to rule out that it was. The outbreak was linked to them Second of all, just because some side to say you can't see The labs work in the virus doesn't mean anything because it could have come be connected to the lab, but you won't be able to detect, detect it, Lord scientists, don't have the final word on this and third of all, we have to invest. the lads whether the chinese government wants us to or not, and that's not going to easy, but that's something that we must must do in the intelligence community can't do it by itself, because they have a conflict of interests because they say did up already. Ok, and that means more congressional negations more public invest it is more releasing of intelligence and more Lessing or of the international community around a real look into this thing I mean we didn't get to talk to about You may tell you, but if you just look at what the W H is proposing is laughable. That doesn't make any sense, they are proposing to negotiate with China. get back into the lab;

The chinese government is already rejected, which they already tried once and wasted a year trying to do and so of again Glenn. This is this: is not be an attack on every value. This is just to say we he can't. In charge of this investigation? He could be a witness. He could be a material witness, ok, but he can't be the prosecutor. and we're gonna need. Somebody else do that investigation and if that person would like to stand up and be great who the thousands who would that be, it's gotta be Congress of the only way I see it going down, that means we're gonna have to have some Democrats or wait until see if the Congress whips the Congress lips and you You ve got subpoena power in a day and you know Anthony found. She's gonna be a lot of hot water if it does then we're gonna need some brave democratic senators. I think say this is important. I think you see some of that. Now there testing the waters there waiting to see The administration comes up with a mere to tell you the Bite administration. You know

have any political incentive to get to the bottom of the pandemic. The middle care raven they're not invested in the lab league theory or the market theory or anything because they weren't around it, wasn't on their watch. Their hands are clean at the same time, if it does not to be the loudly theory or if they pressed you hard investigation well that up and there were delicate, really with Beijing like an idiot a change it with Beijing. That's gonna make that more difficult. It's gonna throw their progressive when members under the boss, because they ve been saying the lovely theory is raised for a year and a half years. I was not just I mean, if you think about it for a few seconds, I always thought the Whittemore, oh markets in China have bet soup. I was so that was way more raises three, because they got anything less than they were. Mistaken a lab rovers utter raises: they exhibit the happens all the time, but chinese people it eat that suits you.

more, but anyway, I definitely rocks. Are we really play and we're gonna know? I have not of not this market everywhere. You go everywhere this mark on wet marketing markets. You can't go anywhere without running into a market. Ok it does it mean that its all weird and met the pandemics are coming out of the markets. We are closed down on the markets. That's crazy courts, Chinese and everything to do that. this avowed, the market theory, the chinese CDC they'd think over the market. But do you know the well. Don't care. There's, like all you gotta, be the market, and maybe there the palm summit. We gotta go, look for Coon dogs in markets all over South EAST Asia. We find the one with the pandemic virus in it and I say to those people go go to the indonesian cave for ten years. Don't call us we'll call. You have fun if you I'm the palms of it that's the source. Let me know, and me how someone else's got to investigate all these background virus led by me Dewey? Don't we pretty much know the the

origins of almost all of these viruses pretty quickly So it depends because it's kind of gets into those statistics argument where a lot of people say well. Most of the viruses statistically come from nature, which again is like interesting, but not actual evidence is not relevant. We only care about this one right. We don't care about. You know, and I think we The lessons that you can draw from the Sars pandemic was that, yes, they that eventually did find the source host. Yes, it did take a very long time, but The other things that we can draw from the Sars pandemic is looking at the Chinese whence response they hid the outbreak for four months. They had the science. They lie to the world about the outbreak. People died because of that. Ok and they did the exact same thing here. So You know people are focused on the side, something focus on the party focus on the system of. Country where the where it broke out you'll understand much more about how we got into this. terrible terrible mess and how we're still in it. You know that,

people don't understand. Is that we're not dealing with open so since we are not dealing with an open. Eighty we're dealing with it Seidel regime that has no compunction about killing its own people, much less killing us This was once you go, have no go ahead to internalize that. Then it explains a lot more about how a baby acting, and then you realize the soup that we're in that's when you realise, oh, maybe it's not a good idea to give them billions of more dollars to think more dangerous by monitoring the back to more than he loves to play around with that crazy. That's crazy thing to do! If you understand what's going my country are we kind of America New early Nineteen thirty's with Germany, where now, history, you can look, I can hear like go you. That was a really bad idea we had not seize here in Amerika. There is huge, the Nazi boomed Party and in New York in New Jersey. That was happening you had,

Nazis or or sympathisers in our universities, we have we just scooped up military spies that we're in our university from China and for some reason, Joe Biden. It decided to let the d o j not prosecuting those guys. I Think of a reason why we would do that but it seems very reminiscent of another decade, here again, I think, but the World WAR, two references like the cold war, references. There are some things that we met. We can learn from and are also imperfect and fundamental values, and so would I get from because emerald like oh well, you know what do you want to? old war? We're gonna go into cold war like wait? A second don't use the the cold. Or as a political cultural tell me not to confront the chinese communist Party- and there are some things we can learn from the cold were similarly waving. But I learned from you know.

My reading of the history, how it got into world war. Two is that when it comes nationalist socialist regimes that are, we the commit genocide. creasy, militarily aggressive their appetites roads with the eating but exact wrong thing that you can do is to appease their ambitions because an abundant, them to become more powerful and more dangerous. Okay, and that's when I look Hong Kong and I look at the weaker genocide. That's what I think I think that's appeasement, because the war the standing, by doing nothing and a future she's here and there from the button or trope administration doesn't mean squat when it comes to two million people in concentration camps right now. As we have this conversation and in my book, I describe in great detail how U S and the recipe rash really stood by while million of Hong Kong residents, fought valiant to preserve the limited freedoms that they had lost. Ok and we did squat to help them and now we're trying to clean, the mass afterwards is too late and then I'll get Taiwan, and I think, ok there next and they know it.

And do we know it and are we going to stand up this time or are we gonna let? But so essentially democratic country? Okay and I've been to Taiwan? It's a country for all the purposes I don't care, whether the U S, government recognizes, are not those people who are not part of the pr see it. They don't want to be and there, but there they are not powerful enough to and up to Beijing on their own. Is that could be the next domino to fall and, if you think about what Had we done something different in Munich or had we done something different at this stage of the world where two yeah, I think that's the lesson that we need to draw a line that were at war a war too, but that hey these men is how we maybe which, in my fingers at the pattern that we're repeating right now, fish or if we would have stood up in Hong Kong. Taiwan would not be next. positively and ivory, and why would you jumping and allowed people talk about or military invasion of, Hong Kong. I don't think that's what's going to happen, the model that choosing thing used in Hong Kong was the threatened military invasion, but to use of the other elements of coercion, did just get it under heal, political interference, economic

coercion. You know just grow. with their information environment, buying up all their media jailing. All the well. That say anything, but you don't like and turning the country from within that's what they did in Hong Kong and and yes, there was a lot of violence to, but not really go invasion. So I think that's what you're gonna see in Taiwan tons. of course, of course, of pressure and selling Mama tax is not going to fix that so can the unit states, out of the binding administration, marshal the error rate to give Taiwan the the the abyss. The capability to defend itself from those things I don't see that having at all and then, if they take Taiwan, I think we're it's all downhill from there. If we take Taiwan, don't they want me Where, where is the stop there? There's no stop on them exactly end. but you know again be appetite grows with the eating Metz POW Expansionist Nationalist socialist regime stand that operate so again. I think we have a window of time, is dwindling fast to convince them,

their ship in Beijing, but there is another way and that won't some decoupling in some trade offs and some costs and some behaviour cages on their part for sure and they're not convinced. Yet all sides it's getting much worse, We think we see all the data, all of them, actions you know in the bite. It did trouble the stranger was a good and flipping over the chessboard. but they were bad, it's getting it back up again and that's what administration is trying to do, but their slow at it and their caught with an internal contradictions and there's still sort of a twenty sixteen kind of world when the Chinese are thinking and a twenty five kind of world, and you know it. When you talk about the pandemic, we think of it but we're having these scourges? Oh sure we should kids get masked. Can we offer a beer there, new about which industries to invest in their thinking about which continents to purchase. Ok, there, thinking about that, the the economic devastation how they can first take advantage of that amend, take event, of the rejuvenation in the reconstruction. And then

who's that to advance their political agenda in countries all of the world will not play makin. Why is it China has vaccine diplomacy with these countries and we don't want to under the thumb of the Chinese Communist Party, just to save their citizens lives and we have counter to that at all we're getting our shots mostly to the curve access. which is the W H show, which Crazily enough is not taking our good graces, but then taking our money and paying to guess who the chinese government, two by chinese shot that don't work to give third world countries Crappy chinese shots that were paid for by the: U S, taxpayer, because that's how stupid? We are. That's the how far we are hide in this thing we call competition for funding the, U N, which is getting fleece by the Chinese, to actually make the situation worse, because if you have bad shots that you have a false sense of security, in these countries. Make bad policy, and it just leaves

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tell me about the Wiggers and what's really happening there and how much we know yet Glenn I mean this is If you that I find in talking about China that vexed with people the most you know, but it's it's all. One of the issues of the chinese government spends most I'm trying to lie about with this information. About, for good reason is because its horrific and it's a its it is the large mass atrocity on our planet, and it's getting worse, not better, and you know people well quibble over the definite of genocide right definitional genocide. Is it a legal determined? to be sure, and essentially it it. It has two requirements destroying a group of people in whole or in part with the intent to reduce their public now, there's two things in their destroying the people and the intense. So what some defenders, that's easy p will tell you is that well we don't really their intent is: maybe the chinese government screwing with the weakest

this group of everybody and maybe they're just concentration just camps- are terrible but they're, not genocide. What I say is, first all that's wrong. Second of all, that's its irrelevant. In other words, we we know their intent because of the documents because of what they say and what they do. They write that people are too lazy to read and translate, but they is very clear. Ok when you have things like Mass forced sterilization, when you have things like mass forced abortion, when you have things like stealing, thousands of children from their parents and educating them in schools. Thousands miles away in a implanted of ideas on a massive scale, that's an intend to reduce the size of our population. That's genocide is far as I can tell now, even if you believe in that what's happening there is is- is heard. And what I did and courts of reporting my book chaos Heaven is that I interviewed a bunch of the survivors Mackay, because whatever statistic, want to throw at me. These are real people. their stories are horrific and their stories are true. There nurse,

Hours are real, they didn't invent the scars that they showed me and what makes this stories are. We make your maker scarecrow because, essentially what started changing is sort of a slow erosion of their freedoms. You know now you can't go to them. ask now you can't pork? Now you can't wear a beard now, study, your own language, now to go to a school on and in Mandarin evolved into. Some much more sinister, which was mass surveillance and monitoring at all times, in other words, the entire provinces, in opening prison before you get to the camps, It was already horrible and then there were the camps, political indoctrination, torture. All that stuff and then when you get to the camps, you're nightmares just beginning, because and you got to go to the factory. What factory shut up get in the car will take you to the factory and now you're sticking together, Nike user picking, cotton for the rest of your life, you're, not you can leave

do you take her home, you now have a choice, right you're, not a slave, because I'll pay you by its forced in IRAN, not to say no and if that all wasn't bad enough right. Millions of people who lost all dignity and agency lost their children, their homes, their culture, their language, their right to wake up and do the job that they want to do or any job that they want to do. Practices religion. All of that, wasn't bad enough. What we see now is that the chinese government is expanding, that model to other places and camps are coming to Tibet, which has been through enough. Believe me, next the gonna go to inner Mongolia and there fifty seven chinese ethnic groups right and each of them has got to be living in morbid. Fear. Ok, and you know, I don't believe that, like our countries per when it comes to race relations or its treatment of Muslim Americans, but we never put two million of them in camps. Ok, so it's not safe and other whatever criticisms you have of the government. I have many

not the same, as is something that our eighty eight was supposed to have of all passed. It is, it is, it is, the only word that you can use, for it is evil which is a very serious word, which is a word deserves justification and explanation, but it's a word. that somehow we can't seem to do without because when we see it, we have to call it out because it with so plainly, so why are these companies I mean? just money? Why Are these companies knowingly engaging wise facebook? Why is Google why are they engaging and actually helping them Do these things. Is it out just than IBM in the Holocaust kind of situation? Some of it is or agreed. Some of it is that these companies are actually not american companies anymore, their national companies. They don't really have any allegiance or report or our values at all.

some of it is wilful ignorance. Some of it is you know that, corporate hostages that they ve gotten into a mess by doing business in China that they thought was gonna, be fine and it's not fine, and now they have no choice because they have the cat out of the seas be at every opportunity now none These companies is gonna voluntarily. Do the right thing in what were finding is that you know, through dragging them into the region: I agree that this is actually not just the right thing to do, but also in their long term business interests, because essentially, if you're in the business of of being complicit in slave labour or genocide or crimes against humanity. Eventually, that's gonna catch up to you, the problem with yours, regions is that mainly care about the next quarter, the problem with walls, references that they actually understand the long term risk, but they don't care and but that that I ever more sympathy for the preparations that are a corporate hostages of the seas. Even I do for the wealthy from that are finally money into the chinese system, including the companies that build the concentration camp,

including the companies that build the cameras and that's it atop the concentration camp walls, including the companies that the missiles that are pointed out as a matter hacking, our intelligence services and matches the greatest transfer of wealth and power and influence from America, China that I've ever seen and it's happening all the time and just look what's going on a Wall Street these days. Gonna. Do you see like in the last month- and I wrote a poem about this in the Washington Post in the last month- the Chinese government- cracking down on its own company is right. Is there in their own existential power grab mess. and their evil a nasty to each other. I think of it like a mafia, org they should commence with uneasy big. That's all you have to think about it. It's it's the largest extort in racket in the world, but that the party, those around to all of its corporate knows coming let there be shamed something happened to it. You know I'm a good that make them at every country ensured each one of these companies has to pay up, but the the crazy thing is that when they did that they cracked

ten cent dd global, unjust ruin these companies, american investors, pay the costs of millions of Americans are invested in these companies building machines that appointed at us and that's because Wall Street is making he's on both ends and that's because their pricing short term profits over the long term. credibility and and and integrity of our capital markets in our stock exchanges. And if you just think about the grand strategic competition, How can we have a government? That's gonna sanction many in China for building concentration camps and Walter comes in The ten times as much money from your pension fund for my pension fund from the army's pension fund, it doesn't make. That's that's all that's stupid. We are that's all crazy. We are not so far. Behind we are in this competition, that we have a system where the Congo pass a law and then a year, later the states where, MRS ok, you know this company is IRAN an entity list. You can no longer trade with this company and the mafia comes in.

I'm a trillion, the ten billion dollars and the richer than ever. You know that's it and of people, watch, people or even mafia journalists, always Madame either well Vienna their bill, that's risk! You know people are doing now not the regular risk its when it they don't understand we're dealing with national socialist, deleterious expansionist genocide it'll, psychotic mafia, organization that wanting the richest country in the world that we have to think about a different, so yeah yeah you just used a lot of terms yo. The c c p is communist branch. or communist is the right way to describe them their their becoming an, and maybe have been for a while and oligarchy. Where you have these oligarchs it kind of rule except like Russia. Well, Maybe it's the same as in Russia too, with with Putin, use about a line and you're dead you you're

you're here gone so what system do they do that actually have. Now. I think it's a cartel. I think that's the most accurate way of describing there the party? It's it's a curse, no organization that runs a country and, Ben Labour unevenly thing does: does President Z believe and enable even there they believe in their own survival and an accumulation of power which, for them is going swimmingly by the way they are. The richest organisation and the world are much more powerful than any other organisation. Donald Trump the reason why the reasons he admired she is because she had all this power that'll drunken control his own legislature, going control its own economy can do the things that he wanted to do because he is mired in this broken dysfunctional watches ass though he was very jealous and he told you all the time that you could just do anything like president for life and of those limits on great now, the euro, the proper? with. That is that we still think of it as like. Oh just a regular government, so we send our deputy Secretary state

with their foreign minister, to sit around me able and think about what it must have a committee to build the commission to have strategic discussion, and I believe that women doing for forty years that Egypt and economic dialogue became the economic and strategic dialogue. Then it became a comprehensive economic dialogue. Then it became a comprehensive economic and strategic dialogue and the Chinese are laughing the whole time because they're sending all of these grab at us to keep us busy, while they actually do what they want to do. The party level, you know, there's a ton of stories like this in my book were: people go to. China may meet with like the foreign ministry. Guy Amerika is greater because you were great and then I realise that that guy is worthless in Unifil the trade negotiations right, but even the Trump was it likewise we kept saying oh yeah, we gotta bet on the reform. where's. In China we gotta if we just support the reformers, A liberal is gonna, be great. That's on happening, ok! and we just have to be honest about this- that the party controls everything and its merged.

The security state in a very nefarious way, so What would you have? Is a security state? Look at my call it deep state, the mss, the ministry. If they, security, some really evil- got as murderers. Ok, egg crux right and and you ve got the party and they ve melded, together into a super faction, and it's all factual, any mafia family. Using this apprentices writing they will kill each other. You know Tony killed Chrissy Emmi, yet he strangled into debt. That's how they are ok and using paying won't murder any. Who gets in his way? So how do you deal with that? I think you do that, like the FBI deals with any criminal organization right like that, if you are this department, you were trying to bust up the mob. That's how you deal with this easy pay as ITALY due to a bunch of different policies than the ones were low performing now, just like you know, what seven dialogues about arms control and check in two years to see what happens which, as you know, really really awful so what should we be doing? Gimme Gimme, some example of of way. You would treat

these d c c p again, so this is like it depends on which part the problem that you're talking about. But, first of all, I think we have to be honest, clear about what we're dealing with. In other words, we have to review every engagement with them through their lands. In other words, if we scientific collaboration for you just for one example. We have to read what their document about viruses. You know what they say about viruses land in their own documents. They say that viruses is the corona. Viruses are a dual use: technology that has military applications. That's what they said it was in Chinese, so noble In the end, I each year for the italian, Greek and Riddick immigrant women, I'm really speak Chinese for some reason for that's what they said said they want to become the best in by a warfare dealing with viruses in the next ten years. Now, if you read that and you understood it and then you ok. Well, maybe we should pay attention to our virus collaboration. That would lead you to a number of steps doesn't mean we can't do it just means you have that. Moreover,

that more account, you have to be clear about what you're dealing with something in our markets right up. Look. We apparently can't leave the oversight of investing in chinese companies to J P Morgan Chase, because there they have our best interests at heart and so may We have to inject national security into our discussion about protecting our capital markets. It means we have to figure out what to decouple and what not to decouple. We can't live in two different worlds. We can't live in two different, you know existed, it's not gonna work, we're gonna have to have trade. We want exchange, with chinese people. We have to separate the Chinese Communist Party from our discussion of China from the chinese people, because they are not responsible for the things that their leaders are doing in in in most cases? You know you won't. Let me telling people for the mafia right, so you and blame the Chinese people from the sea, Sepia Father fall and or to have a relationship with China that doesn't veer off into that where we have to have those entered exchanges. Now, that's all very complexes, in other words,

are no simple solution and if you look at a sector like the academic academic sector, well, that's where things get a little sticky, as we want to have a changes, but we don't wanna have them on China's terms. We don't wanna. Have you know we're we have to shut up about the Dalai Lama in order to have an exchange. or the chinese university. Of course that's what they would want right when I, students come here, what their money, roads, schools, one all that money, that's how on earth are colleges or our survival you're getting richer. Whatever the we have, Make sure that their rights are protected right, that they are not getting spied on and that their Are the actually participate in our These are not just sit there. Monetary there until they all get scooped up or their families get scooped up, you know so in it in essence, it there there's a thousand things that we need to do and all of these things have costs and risks and require us to have tough conversations, often put our our own political bs aside when you think about like.

formation and how to deal with chinese propaganda right? It's not really democratic republic in problem. It's it's an american problem when you think about you, know the NBA Well that's something that the private sector in the public sector can have for their heads together on we. Don't we just don't operate that way, because you know, as I'm sure you believe in Amerika we guard. Are our institutions guard their independence from the government fiercely in writing HU robots our system, but this is a problem. but they can't handle on their own. Isn't so is The problem I mean is that our system anymore, government your embryos for me right looking Europe, exemplary happy. I am to undercut wait an end in charge of amid deity charge of much of chinese scientists right. That's an expansion the security state a clear as clear as day, but that's one that I support, because we, the robot to Chinese by right, spread throughout our institutions. So that's two different values, I'm against an expansion of surveillance. at an end monitoring all, but at the same time I want them to find the actual So what is it

It seems that we are using now many of the early techniques of China too, monitor? We are starting to see tech, and the government start to merge together we're seeing our Justice Department, our capital police, are now. I mean this is a quote. There now becoming an intelligence agency, the cap police work, what is happening to us? I don't think we have, I think, there's we're on the same arriving seems yeah. No, I again. I find myself agreeing with you. I I we can't become the thing that were fighting yeah. Ok, we have to you're out away to be the biggest version of ourselves without sliding into the authoritarianism that makes them so effective, but it doesn't does it yet how many? What is the gimme the thoughts on how many in Washington a really know the threat be are tourists did in in it

or sea. Look at it as a friendly situation or worse. Yet I kind of like their system, I mean, how many people are actually like the regular American that says I dont want to be like that: the low down inside Congress there's a bipartisan consensus for being very, very upset about. What's going on in the US, China relationship and then doing essentially think about it and I've there are thousands and thousands of bills that get introduced in every single time. What congressmen or the office of centres of is called Josh, we just we got a solution. We just introduced No. I'm ok tell me when it passes, because almost none of it implemented, individual saw the huge China. that came through the Senate and the human rights issue, and this must be the democratic stuff on China. It doesn't really

shit and the, but the problem is that the house is not even a pass it, so it doesn't even do the little things that are supposed to do, because is very little chance is gonna, become Lazo Congress CARE is alarming. it's a dysfunctional there, there there- you basically useless now that there are good in terms of education and public pressure and The government to do things now divided administration, is split between those three camps right one camp people who want to do more on China right the other camp as people anything now known obedience, gotta go back to business as usual. These are the business interests these in the Wall Street interests that the tree groups. That's what you see right now. You see the the push back to the push back. That's the phase of this thing that wherein where they say, wait a second crazy, China, hogs enlarging it in Europe. China's entry dollar, only six feet all go back to sleep or fine, ok and that's pretty nefarious, because that's fuel I lobbying money, that's directly linked to their burns, China, so it's by its nature, corrupt and then the third team is the political team,

it's interesting, as in the violent administration, may not a repulse right and the pulse The Americans want to tougher approach to try to Democrats and Republicans. You know across the board, except for a very, even even if even the sides of the Republican Party. Now the Democratic Party still at the progressive left, which is at the zoo, become another military industrial complex. Destination for trillions of of wasted funding and we can get into that if you want to, but almost the entire political spectrum of It is now realises that they want their remit to protect them right, increase chinese malevolence, but the by an administration, despite the fact that may lean towards that you know, is sickly caught up in its own processes in there just not doing enough there. Just Don't you fast and how much of those processes I mean you know when I saw two hundred buttons art show it

so clear to me even before I knew that they were marketing this art to the chinese not to Americans not to the European to the Chinese. It is so Lear how much of the the way we react or don't react to China, is influence. Do you think by direct money, yes about sides and and to be clear, I think the public record shows quite clearly just from what we do not dispute that Hunter Biden and James Biden we're doing business with shady chinese characters, by trading on the binding family name for years and indeed of millions. I don't think that can be sleep disputed. Nevertheless, something that were not allowed to talk about, and what I would say is that I think that's nefarious in that be anchor optimum knew what they were doing about. They should be answer fair questions about that

at the same time, the chinese communist this party does that everyone than any other they can capture on both sides. There's a story. My book about New Bush you know who shows up in China and strange women keep arriving at his hotel rooms to have sex with them, and they ask that he's divorce proceedings in the transcript than his wife's lawyer says Mr Bush. You find that unusual that strange woman in China kept coming to Europe have sex with you. and his answer is yes, I found a very unusual that was it so much What would this is what we have we have. The chinese government to throw money and or favours at any he is willing to be corrupted and so were only strong, is our weakest link and the best way to prevent that corruption is by exposing it, and by naming and shaming those Americans or on the door who are taking the money and that's tough, because what the chinese government does as they launder it through something called the united front

She's a network of organizations and entities. Hong Kong billionaires tie billionaires Malaysia billionaires whatever time his billionaires, who do the parties by following billions of dollars into institutions adored systems to crop them from the inside, and that United front system is very tough, thinks talk about, but there's a ton of it I bookends under Heaven, if you, if you want to learn more about the bottom line, is that reading that out as part of the essential part of the competition, and we do not just want already it's a bit that they were little corrupt anyone who is it, who will take the cash will take the dongle, me. Let me go to journal for a second user. You been a journalist for how long eighteen night Everything is seventeen years. Ok, that's it cept. You are now being position as an up ad writer. When you write thing, I haven't upper So you don't have what you're sick,

All of the research that you're doing on China, the wash in post! You haven't. We don't belongs, often operate page in into news. Ok, so I'm I'm employed as an opinion colonists of the Washington Post. In that opinion, I might do it on a reporting because of my background is or fifth spent the first victim is my career. I was a straight news report over seven different major publications. That's not accommodate imposed that, though we will have a long history of colonists who do reporting David Ignatius Robert Novak, you name it. Walter pink is going all the way back so yeah. I get it that there is a need for transparency in the paper, but yet I have a job where I my boss, likes to say we like to figure out what what's going on before we forgot what we think about it. That's what I try to do. I try to give opinion show my work. Be transport My biases and also tell my red something that they didn't already know before. And if I do that, then that's it They are being Washington Post, countless now. You know

What goes on in the new side of the ouachitas, I have no idea we have a firewall but to say that, like in newsrooms across the country, I think what you say is a blurring of the law. that as I look around the newsrooms, not not singling out anyone specifically, I see it opinion on the news pages and a total news on the opinions ages. Add that's not there bad thing. As long as readers and know what they're getting inner are educated enough to sort through, Well, that's why not where I just like that's that's. Where am I fusion com is because there is more news in the opinion pages many times. Then there is, in the actual news section seems like the new section is afraid or corrupt, the newspaper says. Well, let me give this to you and you do that, but it's in an opinion that way we can distance ourselves from it right I mean again. I think that I theories let a thousand flowers bloom, I think in

we have a long tradition of straight news, opinion, news and read news in that dates back to our founding fathers and there's, that's all good and I know logical then tell me anything to read. I wrote I've, what I want- and no one ever tell me what the writer, what not right and and and so I've used that, for you the report on this story, because I think it's the most important story in the world that the pandemic affects all of us, and that too, stand the pandemic, we have to understand the: U China relationship and vice versa, sorry, not sorry for doing a tunnel reporting. That's like that's what I'm gonna do as long as they allow me to do it, and you know, as for the new rooms again. I think another get not talk. The watch imposed civically, but what I've noticed it in watching. What's happened with the level story just for one example, is that there does not perfect that they make mistakes that they they are susceptible to group. And confirmation by us and source biased and it doesn't,

What part of journalism during those are things you have to be aware of- and I know I know from watching you all these years- that's something that you pay, that you too very carefully that Council we examining your own assumptions, you hate and that's not it you have to, because with new information it changes and the thing is not to be right at the beginning, the poor thing is to be read in the end, and the only way that you could be right in the end is, if you're willing to admit you might not have been right in the beginning. So, in other words, the process of journalism should be a constant revision, and that doesn't mean If your opinion, guy, like you or me, if you're on the news guy or whatever is the process be integrity is in the process. that's why I think a lot of journalism has gone wrong is that they forgotten about the the the process of professional journalism, which is not really about user opinion. It's about. Am I doing my best to understand my biases to to you. The leg work to make sure that what I'm saying is true and then to engage the count. arguments honestly and truthfully, even though I disagree with them and that's what I think

when I go to write a calm, whether its news or opinion or or what else, and I think there are still a lot of people in mainstream journalism. doing that every day, but the lab like there was not a great example of that. When you look at What's happening sense, yes, it does. When you look at what happened because of cove id and the steps, that. The american government took too poor money into big business into Wall Street and the banks, and just screw the little guy how is this going to be written a hundred years from now? Do you think you know, I think, an be an example of sort of the the the severe damage done by either the beltway lobbying complex right. This is that the people who got you get paid off during the crisis always. The people were well connected in Washington, and this is just the latest latest boondoggle we're talking about trillions of dollars, it does matter if you're looking at those covert bills member there,

I've only enjoy a mere three trillion airs and three trillion. What's in it, don't worry about it, just just so chock full of corruption that no chance achieving the aims that they were sent to achieve, and then this thing, I think, will realise is that throughout this pandemic, which again is only begin right, but will be it many many many year event. If it that's, if we don't another one, but just this one in terms of the economic effects, the industrial effects the the the humanitarian facts that will happen all over the world are that are still suffering as our opinion. national economies destroy that will help our own recovery and member act. Of bad actors like the chinese government, you're gonna come in and exploit all of that. I think what we're gonna realises that we we were. We fail to look past our nose and that we're stuffing money into every hole that water is coming out of without thinking about what happens, Six months from now, man was years. Much less ten years are now think about the different industries that we're going to need. Think about the technologies that

indeed the onshore right, I mean it could be anything. It doesn't have to be five g by the way Glinda could be masks right now. In twenty eighteen, could you picked a mask factory making them right. Why would you bill? math and states its. It makes no sense at all, but in time Twenty one you dont have to make that argument. We're gonna need our unless you know why, because last time you're in a pandemic. We apply held over masks to shut up about the corona virus origin, and this could be another pandemics. I guess we're gonna have ever masks and our own vaccines in our own chemicals in our medicines, and these are big, big re orientation that the infrastructure bill Laden with fat as it is, We try to injure riots that so I think that's what it's you will judges for. One last question Your book is chaos under Heaven and if I'm not mistaken, that comes from now right. That's right! why chaos under Heaven explained what that is, the quote, which is a truly

it now, but we couldn't actually figure out if you actually have reset. It goes like this. There is great chaos under Heaven. The situation is excellent. And now is said to have believed that The more his enemy is found themselves in internal disarray, where there was the companies of amending the or whatever the better it was. are these communist party? That's the attitude that using thing has right now that the more were caught up in a row personal dysfunction talking past each other debating minutiae attacking each other Living in a society where focuses on what can divide us, but then what can unite us that all right down to the beach fitted the Chinese Communist Party and that's what I saw during the Trump administration. I saw a lot of good people inside the trouble. Ministration trying to get heads around this very serious and very urgent problem, but that the chaos not just of the administration, although was extremely chaotic, as you well know, but

our society than our discourse made that effort all that much more difficult and less successful so until we fix that until we fix ourselves until we realize We all have some sort of shared patriotism if shared humanity in the chaos will only continue. I remember saying about two thousand nine. I said the the operative word. in the future is going to be chaos. Anyone trying to add chaos is going to be a big part of the problem, because there are too many people inside and outside. They understand if we can just divide and just keep us fighting. I keep thinking what are all of the things that are actually being done, what actually happening while arguing over nonsense nonsense. The world is changing under our feet and

people will wake up one day and go when did that happen. While were arguing. Yet we have to wake up to the challenge of the Chinese Communist Party, we have to wake up to the fact that this is the most important foreign policy issue, that any of us will ever in my opinion, and we have to wake up to the fact that we're dealing with an organisation that means us harm. That is not of nine actor in the world that is intent finally, and deliberately and comprehensively see to undermine our security, our prosperity, our freedom and now public health and it's a problem of a scope in scale the likes of which we haven't that within our history. It is the greatest challenge that our country has phase, and we do have the capacity to rise to it. If we decide to do so. Just thank you we'll talk again. Thank you anytime.

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