From national geographic and executive producer james care comes a new disney plus original series. Supernatural narrated by Benedict cumber batch you'll meet creatures that appear ordinary but possess superpower. we are only beginning to understand. Did you know trees can talk to each other to help fend off invasion, and did you know burrowing owls his like snakes to scare off predators? If you think you know nature think again, supernatural now, leaning on disney plus social media is terrorizing democracy. These p, it forms have damaged our trust, degraded our belief in institutions and eradicated our shared stories. They are undermining the principles that raised america to the heights of civilization, Today's gas recently tackled this in in a new way with

reality. It was reality based and in depth, feature story for the atlantic. It was titled after babble why the pie after ten years of american life, have been uniquely stupid in he uses the biblical story of the tower of babel. As a metaphor for the fractured country we now inhabit, he argues that we live in a post babble era and that social media is largely causing our collapse, he's a social psychologist and a professor at the new york university. He studied emotion, morality and politics, two thousand: a ted talk about the moral routes of liberals and conservatives. After that and wild. He turned that ted talk into a book called the righteous mind which examines how politics and religion divide good people that book was so insightful. I made it required reading for my entire blaze media team in twenty.

eighteen. He also co authored the national best seller. The coddling of the american mind a smart common sense book. the major social distortions that are ruining college campuses. Creating a generation of dysfunctional americans he is a reasonable man. and he has become, of a dinosaur in a way I mean he's, not that he's old, it's just Nobody says these things anymore, and he is troubled by the growing inability of americans to live, work and cooperate across party lines to fight against this trend. He founded the heterodox academy, a nod partisan, non profit devoted to directing diversity of thought on college campuses, what a concept the idea that great minds, don't always think alike, which I think should be the tagline of this podcast today. Well,

my guest jonathan height. you might have heard this about me, but in case you, you haven't, I'm a doctor man, That means before I come on the air for this programme every day I'm busy do and doktor stuff. You know I'm russian patients in from stuff. they were doing you know, shouting bring me a scalpel or a sharp steak knife. You know stuff like that. Save a lot lot. Little lives in my my days, work. That's why I'm happy that I use sweat block here's, how it works You apply, sweat block wipes at night that will literally protect you from embarrassing and uncomfortable sweat for days. Swept was developed by another doktor, harvard doctor was tired of doing presentations with the old, sweat tacos under his arms. Problem became your solution. Now.

If you're like me, might not suffer from excessive sweating. Like I mean flop, sweat but when the lights are in this stage, light in this doctor starts to perform is surgery. Sometimes the Its turn on sweat, a lifesaver for every, It's giving hard working date going average person out there even use the wives, which are extra intense, should be used by all teenagers or even just get the stuff it gets regular. You put it on every every day. It's the best. I've ever tried get it today for twenty percent off sweat, block dot com promo code back or on amazon dot com. It's Jonathan. How are you, sir fine, and a great to see you. It is good to talk to you.

You are your fascinating. I I heard you this week with a very wise and they were, I was I was screaming at my ipod, I'm like now Jonathan this you're you're missing a piece of I think of the babble story. Let them tell me so you know more about it than I do that you talk of us apple. So, first, let's start with your theory on one fragmentation in and that we're living in this post babble era share so sign up. I'm a professor at new york university. The professor since ninety ninety five. I love being the professor. I love universities, but something got weird in twenty fourteen twenty fifteen and many listeners in fuels will remember that here with the student protests and the safe space is trigger warnings, micro, aggressions stuff, we hadn't seen two years before. Where did it come from? And ever since then I ve been trying to figure out what on earth is happening.

because it wasn't just universities. It was a weirdness had spread clearly spread throughout left wing. Progressive. it is. But there was also a weird evening on the right of a real it. Amplification of right wing popular movements, not just in the u s, so it felt like something was really going, strange about the universe that was affecting us all and had a strong feel it was something to do with social media. That seem to be what was messing us up, and I spent my to my career, studying political polarisation and tribal is unlike left versus right, you- and I have talked about that previous in a previous meetings. But what was we heard you know it was last few years- is that it wasn't just that the left hated the right more than before, and vice versa. It was that within the left, everyone was ripping every, to shreds and within the right things were nastier and so Fragmentation is different from tribalism. Fragmentation is where everything is coming. Apart and so when I dont member, when I read the babble story, but most people thing

They know the story, I'm I'm sure. The adoption you can I quote the key line, but us more secular but we, canada, yeah, you know people were so proud and god knocked over the tower. That's this alluring right, but waited with a story. It's it's a very short story and the key line is god he doesn't action up over the tower. What he does is, he says: let let's go down and confound their language. They may not understand one another and when I read that line it was like a year. a moment because, yes, that is what has happened to us. We they cannot understand people that were related to that. We work with. They live in a different world we can't break through so that was the central metaphor for this essay that wrote me the atlantic last week. So I love it and I think it's great, but I have been the tower of babel story has bothered me for a long time

and I I keep feeling like it plays a real role here, there's something to this story. So when I heard you say that, like yes, yes, however there, if I'm, if I may add a couple of things, I want to talk to you about how these might change, you're thinking, if at all, you know the part of the story that bothered me? The first time was when but can, as are the leader says you know, let's build it. Our reach, the sky. He d and say that he says let us make bricks building the tower to reach the sky, and I have a rabbi friend and I said rob have never heard. A politician say that let's raise some taxes and we're going to do these things and then we're going to have this great tower. They always talk about the tower. They don't talk about that yeah! That's right! He said because the oral tradition means bricks. Is

equal to slaves when the bible talks about stones, each are unique and You build a stone wall, you put stones together and That means the uniqueness of people come together. building something ok bricks all the same, so he said that it is the elite. saying look people are all interchangeable. If we just make sure if we treat them like brick, treat them like slaves or all the same. You can do anything? We can build this tower to the sky. So He then also said that in the oral tradition there are three faces of god. You I see important to know which one ok is talking. and this one is the merciful- god, They can do this, they can do anything confuse the language,

I've always looked at this story and thought our languages, ones and zeros and with where we're going. I hope that god, would come down before we destroy ourselves. confuse our ones and zeros, but I was fascinated with with your telling of it, but does add information at all. change the or a babbles insight, sir? You. Let me just get this straight. What you are saying is that there is a reading of the story where god does this to help us? Yes, that is a good thing that he destroys the tower yes, trying to he's tried, Two I mean in a really butchered sort of way here trying to say authoritarianism where Everybody is exactly the same and the leadership just your dead move on.

That has to be destroyed, because if it's done they were doing it. Then man, can these men can do anything It's interesting the idea that it was done for our benefit or as a way to stop us from being too proud. I did it cats with Russell more last week and he said, asked is that there are two options: The motives of the text is so short sea, but but but he said that few motives that seem to come out from what we have is One is the hubris, the ambition we wonder but will have its top in the tower and the others. fear because the people it's like this, so that we ve be flooded again. These are the descendants of no other risk flooded out, and if we build a sin, with a tower? Then we can run up into that however, god sent another flood, so fear, and and so Those are the motives, those to translate easily into social media, because why do we do the things

do on social media. We do it for detailed we want to boast and brag put herself forward and be an influenza and that's the hubris and we do it. We attack people out of work are we think they're gonna destroy our way of life and we want to come together and attack lamb in inner this petty degrading? sort of way? But your interpretation, europe s friend, interpretation, is very interesting about the in figures on envy, interchange, ability and the because it and the bricks when it comes to social media, that's it's doing to all of us it is, it is demanding that everybody told this line and say these things or they'll, destroy you well now, Second, here's the weird thing about social media: it's not demand that all people, one hundred per cent of people, say this thing. It's demanding that the people that I influence in my domain or bubble must say this thing to so. The language policing does not necessarily enforced. It's not as though

recipe. Universities are seeing. You in your churches must use the this language their mode, sleep harassing moderates on the left, their mostly harassing people who, in their institutions and this is one of the central idea. I would beg to differ that it's mostly, I could say it's pretty fair on our side too, ok, ok, but the keeping I wanted to get across in the article is that, of course, we have always held conflict. We were. We had a culture where left my country's culture for a long time, but what changed about social media is that it started wasn't so bad. You put up pictures of your family, your dog, whatever its when it's it's between two thousand and two thousand twelve, the dynamics of the platforms, change and its out about sharing foes with your friends is now about commenting on things on things that people said the retreat and quote tweets. If it's much more about this, if our uses its as though everyone got a little dark gun and twittering partake

Well, that's the worst of them! It's like everyone has a little dark gun. You can shoot as many doors as you wanted, any one you want and there's no accountability, no due process and say anything you want and most people are nice, most people don't want to destroy anybody, but that there are four groups of people who took up. Those dark with great enthusiasm, and I think they're, mostly on the far left, the far right, troll that is, individuals are mostly men who are just jerks and just like to harass. People and russian intelligence agents who really used it skillfully, beginning in two thousand and fourteen to to make us hate each other and they they they messed with people on the left and the right to increase hate and will certainly arguing about it. Honestly, I mean it's been crazy. I don't know if you know example dugan, but he was now. Oh you owe you should look at it. I understand he Alexander Dugan is a guy. You should study because he is his influence.

with Putin has been significant in the past, but he also somebody who is got his fingers into the far right and is posing as a small t traditionalist, but he is a capital t traditionalist he's a hundred, I'm the guy looks like rats viewed make our yes. I know he looks like courtyard You will love your journey on him he's, I think, he's one of the most dangerous men in the world. Ok, thanks for thanks, forgive another rabbit hole to go yeah, but the philosopher. This is uncanny. Oh yeah, wow yeah. He is he's the guy who really developed the ukraine strategy, or croatia. He is that he is very dangerous, very, very dangerous. You know My doctor said to me when you got it,

to the gym every day, and I have I went back to my doctor- and he said, you haven't, lost a pound and I said I'm going the gym every day he said. Are you actually using- and I said you didn't say that. Ok, but I'm there. And I'm sitting there in that Jim and eaten. You know, bill bars which are healthy, healthy might be. eating too many of them, but there like candy bars. They are so great philip thirteen have about two hundred and thirty calories. Each I just saw that meant for the box, hundreds many calories for grams of sugar for grams of net carbs. Seventeen grams of protein. Now, doctor says, if you mix that protein with everything stuff it builds muscles, he's a dark. so am, I I'm not sure that's true, but anyway they take great and their friends, to your waistline. Even if you

not begun, workin out like me you should try it. It's great, really really great. It's built, built, dotcom use the promo code back fifteen get fifteen percent off your order, use I'm a code deck fifteen for fifteen percent off at built dotcom. We, are divided. We are at this place where we can't stand each other and and Jonathan Think you know me well enough to know that I'm screw things up a lot, but I am actually trying to do the right thing. I trust I have, Try a deep you ve changed your mind. You made apologies when you were wrong, so yes, I mean that. That's why I'm happy to be, you're talking with, but I ve tried to use You know your tips and your. language and the way to to reach out there is. There are very few people, and

especially now it's getting much worse there is no reconciliation, on the horizon, and quite honestly, I don't know how answer that I mean in a martin luther king way. You have to reconcile, because if you don't, there is no winner I mean there's no there's a winner and a loser, and we can't have that. So we have to reconcile buddy people are point where I can't live next to you. if you really believe that- there is no freedom of speech or difference of opinion, and I have to to that line of. I can't do in fact glint. Let me ask you something I think did used to live in in new canaan, connecticut yeah. I did yeah mike I believe, do you in near bonus ridge, road lived on it yeah, that's right, yeah! it my sister and brother in law.

If they're they live there, while you, while you were there, and I think they said that what did did you leave because people were just nasty to her ass? If I was, you know why you left yeah yeah, yeah, yeah, so so bright. So that's what's happening that the culture war, sweden has said out into all channels, and- and this was even before you know it wasn't. Twenty was too, under. Trumpet became much more common for early enough for people too, ass people in a restaurant you're, the trumpet ministration, I'm not gonna, let you have your real peace and I, but I guess they were doing that to you even long before then. So. Yes, we will ultimately will need to reconcile and it seems that we're very far from that. But let me let me make this distinction that either look at individual americans, and we can think about what the average person wants or or we can talk about what we're like, or we can look at our public life, which is not a reflection of the average american reflection of various dynamic and pressures and incentives, and what I have

always found in all my research on morality is that most people are very reasonable. Nice. If you talk to them in private, There was a light and they become jerks they become not nice when they are performing in front of others and so but when you put them in the wrong sort of forms to think about it, this way technology I us to connect. People have always wanted to connect. It was amazing. When do you know him he's got roads in the postal services? Tell us one an email. These are things all let us connect, but social media platforms that's what I'm focused on this is not about the internet. had. This is about a few platforms that use a particular business model, in which users are not the customers there, the product and they are supposed to perform to get other people to watch and so, if you can imagine technology making it p it's for us to have all these conversations, but all of a sudden we discover I'm not talking to you, privately over facebook

or twitter anything else, we actually performing in the center of the roman colosseum, yes and distort the stands, are full of people with their work s, men send their beer and their children, they want to see blood, they want to see a fight and that's what changed into twenty tens that's my argument in the end this atlantic essay. when social media change and became much more about that they change the architect. so things could go viral much more quickly with the retreat button. The like button, the share button and people were much more incentivize to attack, others to be outrageous? That's everything changed. We were polarized before to two thousand nine, but but in the twenty tens It was ass, though everyone got a dark gun and they were encouraged, shoot shoot, shoot the more you shoot, the more points you'll get more followers you'll get, and that's when I believe our institutions are groups became structurally stupid. This is not about. It

jill americans being stupid, we're not a stupid people, but our institutions became stupid or in the twenty tens, because work, most of us are free to say anything were free to challenge the orthodoxy and that's what makes any group stupid you know what I was when I was a fox with people say did you know I was just saying things for ratings, etc, etc, and I I to explain to people look, I a performer, because my job is, there's two sides to it to draw. I've eyeballs to the show and then gave them a message. Gay and I know how to I know how it performs so it's an exciting show. It's a fun, show: okay, yeah you're right. It's always been fun to listen to people when I intensely dislike politically back when I was younger, but is the I gotta give you credit, it's a lot more if it was fun to listen to so I so I know that

I have worked a long time to get there and I know there are some people and it almost and to me where you know you get to a place to. Maybe your ratings are starting go down a year whatever, and you know how to manipulate it. And you lose your soul, one should do but into I ten. What happened was I used to have an audience now. My audience has an audience and so we move unleashed millions of people. who now are struggling with the same thing that they used to accuse me or others of euro really mean it you're just trying to get whatever yeah and that what we are really what's happening and like it, yes it is so let me introduce a psychology principle here that I think will expand. On your your metaphor, your insight so either, any view: listeners our parents and we know how hard it is to change our kids and my wife and I've tried.

Yet our daughter to make her bed and it's impossible. and finally, my wife just gave up and she makes the bed and it's very hard to change your kids on either hand. take a rat or a pigeon, and you put them in a skinner box. That is a box where this where the scientists can press a button to instantly give them a reward or punishment. You can train that pigeon, play ping pong to play the piano. If you can give rewards and punishments instantly, then you can train a creature, very very fast, even a rat or a pigeon, and so what happened when your audience got an audience. What happened when everyone got on social media? Well, social media is a way in which you do something like you, post, something and, but you are even though I say how battle this stuff is ripe. Posting a bunch recently, because in my laptop article- and I find myself

I go back and I checked five minutes later. How many people like that? How many food pellets did I get so it's incredibly powerful psychologically. It's called units behaviorist conditioning, and so old days of mass media, where you were the performer, you had a big audience. It wasn't like that. There's all kinds of interesting ecology and they shape you, but that's part of what into the twenty tens is suddenly all of us are in this little dinner box, our account on facebook or twitter, instagram and strangers, or our reproof reinforcing us are punishing us and guess what alive Let us get trained to do weird, weird things and that's part of the story of why everything went crazy in the twenty ted's. So I know that you mean you really believe in the moral foundations of a society and they are all crumbling and yes, you know it is. It's happened before there's been too great. Awakenings,

one in the seventeen fifties and Sixtys and one in the eighteen, fortys and fifty's, and they have they been led outside the church because the church email It is just like everything else: it'll just go corrupt in a worry about its standing its power and everything else. So usually, it starts from outside where people are like hate. This is wrong and the churches usually start to attack those people, but it should martin Luther king did the same thing. and We are hopefully headed towards new awakening. But we are so close to losing all of our moral foundations. I dont I feel like we are really at the edge. Yes, I think so

Let's go into that a little more detail, so so I'm I demand cycle It is very interested in both evolution and anthropology evolution tells us how we're all the same. How we're all members of homo sapiens. We all have human nature. Anthropology tells us a lot about how we're different, how we have different norms and practices in different societies come and here and evolved to live in small groups with. lots of small gods and worshipping them. You know with with animistic practices in camp fires and and ridden music and there's a sort of and a default or normal human pattern of spoke of spirituality and religion. But agriculture and the agricultural revolution and and surpluses we began living? much larger societies. So that's just about you know

went to ten thousand years ago or know five to ten thousand years ago we began living in larger societies, and so the question is, how does a society hold itself together rather than splitting apart, because we didn't evolve to live in large groups, but over time? evolved cultural institutions and religion is the pre eminent one. So again, I'm I'm coming at this. From the point I'm a jewish atheist. I'm I'm raised jewish I'm ups. It is time an atheist, but I have a lot of respect for religion, which I think is why I get invited to did to speak a christian schools, because people very tolerant about what I believe is largely: don't show contempt for them, which which, which I dont want some some researchers due on for tat, used to be what united us weak, still I agree, but still listen to each other and be decent to each other. That's right! Because what you need for as human society grows, you have to look at what are the forces holding us together and what are the forces splitting us apart and

traditionally. Religion is religion and common language. Since a shared blood were all descended from the same ancestor Jews, you know we're with which the EU aid have where all the descendants of Abraham. So these are the text these are the psychologically powerful things that hold a society together and as you get diversity. For example. Now diversity brings many benefits for creativity for trade economics, but cultural. There see religious diversity and linguistic diversity. Those are like centrifugal to the things out, and you have to have other for. the point things. If so you The moral foundations are crumbling. I would translate into a social science language more like there are by ending forces and there are dividing forces and, in the post war where to world boy those binding we're really strong. We just fine words fascism and then we pivot into the cold war. We had any he's. We had life or death struggles. We had one dominant culture, there was the war

culture, which was actually pretty tolerant. Might my my grand, parents, near jewish immigrants from poland and russia. They were allowed to come to bed. selves to with assimilated their kids became americans. So there was a lot of things pulling together with a sense, a commonality. Part of what is crumbling is this. did the sense that we have a shared story this, since we have anything that holds us together. This sense that our Founding institutions are good every culture many cultures, worship their there, sisters, and partly american religion. Is you worship, the founding fathers, the constitution, the declaration of independence? We have our holy documents, that's all fading away. There is less respect, less the less trust, so the things that hold us together, our water loosening and Social media has just accelerated that to an extraordinary degree, anyone a bit scattered. But yes, I

you want incredulous your to think about the things that happen, Let us together and the things that are driving us apart and right now we're out of balance. We add a balance. throughout the whole world, the leading cause of death is abortion. In the u s, murder has become a wholesale business since row versus wade. We ve killed over six the three million children nearly twice Five percent of pregnant mothers, twenty five percent don't use life. The ministry Of pre, born and blaze, media are proud to partner up to help rescue fifty thousand babies from abortion in twenty twenty two it's not as hard as you think, pre born is the direct competition to play and parenthood. They are also the largest provider of free ultra, sounds in the? U s so They know when you let a woman see a baby, her baby on alter sound and here the heartbeat she's eighty

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I've, always thought of you is a guy who one of the good guys trying to bring people together, trying to speak the truth and in an optimist and I haven't heard, you know the screaming optimism from you. Lately, Thank you said recently that cash. Where was it? I just wrote down to the second it, but you basically you're saying you know we're coming to an end here of democracy. Let book it. Let me elaborate on ok, I, by temperament. Yes, I'm generally optimistic and for a long time believed the there's some wonderful book, Steve pinker has book online data, better inches of our nature of others. Matt Ridley spoke the rash optimism. You know people voted, thought societies falling apart and yet you know

spare me rises. Health increases rights increase. So I have long been a believer in that theory that there are temporary setbacks, but the long term trajectory of humanity is very good in the last three or four years. I am very much more doubtful, I'm much more pessimistic, I would say, is if we don't make these big change. If we continue on the path were going on, then I believe we will fail as a country within it's hard to say, If, within ten years, I think we will have high, levels of political dysfunction. There be more political violence to be less trust, and our young generation, which is already really messed up, they're gonna, be the ones running the show. So if we don't make me changes then. Yes, I think we will fail as a country that doesn't mean civil war necessarily, but it means more, like I think, they're many latin american countries. Many countries around the world have tried to enact democracy with weak institutions and I think, will become like them, but that there is a big if that, that's it

you don't do anything just continue fighting each other or it's. So then what are the things we have to do too sure that I mean Conversely, job, and I wanted to call you so many times ago. Jonathan can you just can spending with me. I should like me what to do I mean there are millions of people that work to solve this. We just don't know what to do. That's right, so, actually I am actually a lot more optimistic now than I wasn't and the article, and that was just last month that I wrote it. Here's why it at once once I realize it's not that we're all going crazy, we're not it's that there are four groups that are super empowered by viral social media and they are, as I said, the far right, the far left, trolls and russian agents or other but neat other intelligence agents that are trying to split us. and there's the middle eighty percent of the country, there is the most of us, middle eighty percent. Is

very reasonable, and so the fact that I published this article I'm not getting attacked a fact. Nobody's disagree with it. There's a is, there seems If people are seeing seem to be sailing totally exhausted. Oh my god! Yes, this article at least explains what the hell's going on. Why are we all exhausted? Why have we all been attacked by strangers for no reason, so I'm actually encouraged because we're on a ship his sinking, we're on a ship that is taking on water, it it can be repaired, it's not destined to sink. but if we don't do anything, it will sink and we don't want to because all we see is the the the the the sailors are just fighting. Each other crew, as is fighting each other, and that where the passengers and we're saying like what we do and I think there's, a daunting realisation that the ship is sinking the people are supposed to be running at our door. you're busy fighting each other, so we the passengers, have to actually take action. The middle age, percent has to stand up and what that means

other speakers haven't said this anywhere else may see. If this makes sense, what this means is the because because our leaders are so intimidated by their extreme wings, if you, if you are president of a university, your intimidated by the the young, left if you a moderate republican politician, you're, gettin, death threats from people on the right. So I think what this means is that the the the leaders and the and the more moderate people have done add up to their wings unit. The president's have to stand up and say you don't know no, what this university is devoted to the pursuit of truth, we're not we're not here to to fight for racial justice or any sort of of social, just you do that on your time. That's great, we hope will give you the tools, but we have it. To do our job- is the pursuit of truth in the passing on of the best that has been said and thought so. So, if We have a daunting realisation that the ship is sinking but the great majority.

Don't want it to think we want to fix the ship. We want to fix the game. Then I think there are some reforms that can be done so for them is checked with the do you agree with the analysis that them more moderate and responsible people, the leaders of the institutions, they have to stand up to extremes, or do you think you're, no eyes, asymmetry here? No! No! I know there's a perspective here that you may not have that. I could help enhance this a little bit, or at least the question to you I think you're right there still there. There are now where's the churchill where where's the churchill business where's, the churchill of of universities, where's the churchill of parties. You know I mean they're scarce scarce and they have to stand up. But I will tell you that I feel like the right. You know the the not the far fringe the regular person, and I think I don't

no. But I know when I go to my farming community, I talked democrats and they're the same way that I am Can we have a nice just live together gay? then that has to be led, but the people on the right feel like we have been cut, As wanting to kill people because we disagreed, wanting to starve children to death, all of these things were racist were angry were white all this stuff. That until you start to see leadership, and I think you are one of these, but gaussian is one you know the others like this very wise is one where they stand up and go. You know what not a conservative, This is not that's right We can rally if we see that, but an

no conservative start to see people on the left going. Ok, you view marxists, that want to burn the entire thing to the ground. You gotta. Stop till we see that I don't we'll will have the trust since today it it sure, does but, but I think, This is where the asymmetry lies, because people on each side point two the extremes, the other, with justification. an interesting asymmetry. So what I said in the article is that the problem left is not the democratic party per se, because the democratic party per se is actually it's. Usually the moderates. Who win? It's not it's not the The extremely is not in charge. They, they have voiced their involved, but they're not dominated the democratic party. They are nominating the institutions, as you say, so so people on the re art

wrapped in pointing out the nastiness, they did the instant you know they will instantly call you racist for anything. Just do so. They're right that you keep on the right are correct in saying the things you said, but you know you ve got to take the the plank out of your own eye. The four you can point out the the the the the the splinter in your neighbors eye and what I argue in the test say: is that the symmetry is that is that normal. Conservatives are not doing this to liberals, but the republic, in party, I believe, has gone off the deep and under trump the party of mitt romney was at least a responsible centre right party now here I am sure many of your listeners will have strong reactions against this, but it seems to me as someone in the middle, I'm saying is the cultural left is a huge problem because its warping institutions, but on the right, not the cultural rights, the republican party and the fact that they couldn't even and up after the january six insurrection and and say that

We should study this or say that a decision, if there are many of us did ok, I don't happen you top. Please tell me what happens to what happens to more moderate republicans, houston and then hand why will total fina january six thing until the binding ministration started going on this massive witch hunt and saying it was the worst thing that has happened since the civil war. I mean less after the nineties, where the left blew the capital of blue part of the Senate up happened before and quite honestly, I do I was disgusted by it and quite out of hey? I was disgusted that the present I was at home grown weary, the president, where the president and then when he did something on the phone online, I was like that's that's that's not what a president does most people that I know felt exactly the same way most if

all fell that way felt that way that I know, however, once it became a tool, it stopped worrying about donald trump instead to be about the ninety million people that voted for him, you did you know it just as the left was like what it. What are you doing? You did go after the people who were burning cities in europe, we're after this group that most of us don't relate to at all? Ok, but so here here we're going down the path of normal moral psychology, and when you see this went in your kids, you know a few if he, if you get off your kid, there's something wrong the extent responses well, but he did he get. I know I know I know you did something else and so so We once complaints at the other side are our legitimate are justified and the underbrush

get out of that is by totally breaking out of that dynamic, so unwillingly, so wait, wait Help me out with this part then, because I think, because you remember I was not for donald trump when he ran the first time, not that and took a bad b for it for policies don't lie the tweets and all that crap that comes with it. They re rating for president. He s really despicable january six. Yadda yadda, even though, I thought there was foul play, but I couldn't prove it, so nobody could prove it. I kept saying if you got some show it. If you don't shut up you know you don't have anything right, so when you look at that, but I have learned what people see in donald trump. Is You know, you said that the very beginning of this, but you see

to see people rise up all around the world the writings and everything else There is one thing that they have in common cause. I've I've watched this as well. Khan France breaks it can here in the usa, it's happening all over the world and it what they all have in common? Is they feel as though their government is not listening to them. And and demeaning them and the things that they believe in, and so they will follow. People who say I listen to you. I listen to you and that's that what donald trump has in spades to the people who voted for him there least somebody is valuing my my opinion. And my my my values and I think

I think, that's a good analysis, I'm for on the social media aspect, but there's an economic aspect here, which is what you just put your finger on, that the left used to be. related to labor. It wasn't a party of the working man, berlin EDA. So it is in there the parties to be the party of the other rich country, club, business people and what's happened? not just in the. U s exactly the same thing in the uk and and and you know in france and in all the western democracies is as the as the highly educated people, the knowledge workers, the journalist, the professors at this stage is there they ve come to be the centre of the left party, whether its labour in the uk or democrats. Here they live in paris in new york, and I mean at the paris, london york san francisco. They were, they refer contemptuously to fly over zone lyra country. They do treat most people with content, do they have no connection to the working man, and so yes to spin a glow, the change of economics of

bill. Education, knowledge work. All this stuff has changed the left right. The nature of the left right conflict in our country- and I agree- the left does treat the right with contempt, and only then I will tell you: why did it when elections now right? But I think there's a difference. I think this split is because I talked to Democrats and we may not agree on. Policy, but we agree on direction and principles, not everyone! I'm not talking about the political that last I'm talking about the regular people, yeah, ok and when you really look at it It's really becoming the ruling class all over the world, this group of elites It really looked down their nose at everybody else. and then you everybody else. I mean I think I mean I'm finding strange bedfellows all the time that we don't agree with you that it ok so so

How would you go about? I agree I agree with you that there is this rise of elites and and the badly emmy, but we have good elites Those are the ones you gotta through world. Where too, that was churchill. You know if you have good elite with a sense of service you, it leads to run a country, and if we have this more meredith, it where they feel their leaders. But they did so well on the usa t that they got into the top schools when they got to the top schools. So our turn out elsie elite is great. Yet it's true merit as oppose? Yes has taken? Yes, yes, yes, so so I we with you that a part of our problem is that we don't have elites with a sense of service. We have elites who think that they deserved they deserve their lead is yelling status. I mean you have elon musk and I I agree with the elon musk on so much I'm sure, but he had a vision eyes because he see he sees passed all this crap like this is your crap, let

go here, she's the only martyrs right. Yes, right, yeah yeah. That's the problem to the law. The lack of vision so, but let me take this back to you- I put this out as I put this out as we know, to somehow mobilise the middle eighty percent, the reasonable people and It's not like. We need to like tear things down its. We need to like. restore reason to our institutions? We need to do. Our schools need to focus on education. You know, The cdc needs to focus on health. We have to keep political concerns out of things. I couldn't. We need a geneva convention for the culture wars that people don't assault you at it at a picnic in new caledonia, loretta in a restaurant, wherever you know in washington, Do you think we can get there? You said before you know the left has to stop. doing this to the right. That's not gonna stop and as long as

his twitter is anyone as long as anyone has done anything you're going to find out about it. So how? How do you think we can get outta so it requires just like you said, I think leadership, in position, all positions, you know leadership you're standing up at the p you know, you're speaking to your school board. with respect and lead that way, and then just follow the system and its happening all over the country. You. You become. You know the school board member and then somebody else has to stand up and be outrageous around you. If you start to go, you know, corrupt. We have to have them in all levels of people. who just really truly want to fix the problem and use common sense? I really don't think Jonathan, and this is new for me,

I really don't think you'll do it until you reduce the size of the government. It is absolutely corrupt. You have to get the power back closer to the people. This won't work in probably any other country, but ours. if we still understand it, but not sure the next generation understands capitalism understands hard work. Has the has the courage to be in to I dont know if they have that, but I'm afraid I'm afraid they don't, because one of the hallmarks of gen z. Is that they're, anxious, they're, fearful they're risk averse, because we never let them practice risk taking right. So actually, just your conversation just from. I want a compact what you just said, but but but a big this in a big if my pessimism is that we ve messed up Jan Z, go to ways what we ve done, is kids need to be

outplaying playing, especially between age, seven and twelve. That's when all the children's stories take place. You know the kid goes out on an adventure without parents, that's the crucial period of culture learning for for for human children. They need to have supervise free play. What we did is we said, instead of that, we think you'll get kid if we really move out, which does which doesn't happen so we're not going. Oh yeah, we're gonna, give you a phone and an ipad, and you can just beyond that and that basically blocks all the experience that they need to grow. So for it, for everybody. Listen to this think about your community. Think about where What age kids are let out think of it when you are let out and I've done this all over the country. It used to be six to eight. He was the first second or third grade by third grade everyone's out playing with no adult supervision. That's the normal human thing and that's true. In other countries, I've been to all of us the nineties. We stop that we freak out about child. and even though there are almost zero children abducted other than by the non custodial paragraph we freak out about in part because a cable tv freak out and we will

protect our kids, they don't learn the verse. that you're talking about the virtue, how do you learn to be a leader? How did you learn to resolve conflicts with unsupervised free play, team competition with no referee, you have to supervise yourselves so kids I have a lot more free play and a lot less time on their devices. They should not be on social media particular until after puberty. Until I think sixteen is the minimum age and I'm not telling your listeners to just get your kid off right away, because that could isolate them, but work your community. This is the thing work on your come unity, so that there is a place where kids play or you have you have you don't you you and your friends, your you in your kids, friends, families! All agree. Kids should be already to their homes playing out outside. So we ve gotta, gotta change. What we're doing a kids more free play less time phones, I urge you listeners to go to let grow dot org, it's an organization. I call founded with the north can easily who wrote the book criterion kids, so that justice

This is an area. This is a totally non partisan issue. Yes, is one where we re We can work together and actually fall states, have already passed laws. Legalizing outdoor play sounds like a crazy thing to say, but in most states, if It is quite plain outside they could be taken. I beg of you children into services hey it's insane, salience at yeah, yeah oh colorado was the most recent one to pass a passive. a further. You tat was the first, so everywhere! Listen to this fight, go to listen, dot org and look at our page on legislation find that if used it has a reasonable childhood independence law because we have to give our kids we noble independence to develop those virtues, you're talking about virtues that conservatives in particular are eloquent about self reliant, ants. Don't blame others take

responsibility you know, learn to share work it out yourself. These are the things kits learning play, so we have to do that. We have to keep them off social media till sixteen, and then the next generation will be a little more able to take risks. We deprive them of the chance to learn how to how to calibrate risk. So anyway, the jet, that's just building what you said about the importance of leaders who are willing to take reasonable risks. Jonathan. I know you ve got a tight time schedule, sir, why I would I would love to do this again early and often I you are rare mind in a rare voice in today's world. How can I will thank you glad? I lie. talking with you. I love the way you you think about things. You you your change, your position when you do you think the facts have changed and it's a fund to talk to you so like we're having me on again. Thank you. God bless

just a reminder? I'd love you to rate and subscribe to the podcast analysis onto a friend, so it can be just everybody and the people, the.