Kyle Newman (director, author) talks with Chris about a deleted Star Wars scene that was recently released, how they met and their mutual love for nerd culture. They also talk about how people can have such intense opinions on things they love, they go deep discussing the Star Wars universe and Kyle’s new book Dungeons and Dragons Art and Arcana: A Visual History!
This is an unofficial transcript meant for reference. Accuracy is not guaranteed.
Welcome to the eighty twenty Punkahs number, nine. Eighty, nine. If you gotta, be in Santiago this weekend March, eight, the ninth- I will be at the american comedy company, slinging, jokes and then the following weekends, helium in Portland and then a bunch war dates come up which I want overwhelm you with right now, but I think the new eighty ten t site is going to launch the refreshed site sometime around March twenty or so but right now we have the special edition blood splatter pops Funchal. Pops of me, with less water and those are there and a handful of members signed. So you, get assigned one in the mail, but if you.
See me in public, and you have your fine go up with you. Please do not hesitate to ask me to sign it. I will happily do that, and so there's that we're gonna we have some mighty ten t, the sort of their first additionality. Ten t t shirts that are up there. If you want to support the podcast just go to eighty twenty dotcom, the site is up and running now, but the refreshed, more robust site will be up around March twentieth. If you have it that you would like to promote events at eighty, twenty dot com. You made a thing or friend years made a thing or someone. You never know better thing that you want to amplify and celebrate. Then let us know like Laura, who writes after years of
you say create something I finally realise what I was meant to create, and that is a place to help people achieve their weight, loss and performance goals and certified coach and have decided to branch out on my own and created vitality. Macros. I love helping. People realise that food is not the problem. Food is the answer. This is one of a kind individualise nutrition. Coaching programme that is completely customized for specific needs website is vitality, macros, dot com and I would love to any fellow listeners achieve their goals. That sounds great Laura. I haven't seen this yet, but I will check it out and thank you for writing in and congratulations on making a thing bill rights. We have really exciting event coming up there. Like to share were calling it. The electoral progressive, be in Think Drum Circle meets experimental, electronic Can you basically gotta will have drums tambourines, since even a theremin Owen, Owen, lights, really cool lights, etc. Trenton, coffee house and tread New Jersey, totally free, just bring good vibes, and please
by some coffee? Yes, that is important. I can tell you, having done Alaska Open, makes a coffee places that you know these types of businesses allow this sort of art and culture stuff, because you know their hoping that it will increase
their sale. So when you don't buy stuff me you'll have to you, but when you don't buy stuff, it just makes it harder for them to convince these types of businesses to do that kind of thing, so just know that by your coffee or buying a deserted paste or something when you go to these types of cultural events really does in a way support. The efforts by justifying the business is letting them happen. There, but this one in particular, is a trend coffeehouse Saturday March, twenty third, seventy nine p m for more info and a link to the event on Facebook visit Bill no start come be I o n, o b s dot com. All right. This episode is my dear friend Kyle Newman, who is the kindly IST champion for nerds he's just such a good dude Kyle directed Fanboys he's done a bunch of amazing things, and he and his wife, Jamie King are very close friends of Libya and mine. His wife Jamie was:
the officiated of our wedding, civil and Kyle is such a positive force of you know in the in the sort of the table, tat, communion deemed community and also anxious to good guy he's, just a really really really good guy, and he has helped put together a book called dungeons and dragons art and our canna of visual history. That is fucking stunning. If you had an interesting de India or even know? Even if you don't know D, Andy, it's just a gorgeous book, but essentially it's a thick hardcover book that had it gives you the history of deity as told through the art of GNP which any dvd player knows, because I still have my original books is- was a very beautiful journey as it kind of expanded as the way the world
the India expanded. The art really really help tell the story, so its old advertisements in art, from the books and stuff, and it is just a gorgeous book. We recorded this pod cast several weeks ago. So she does mention he mentions that it was on sale at the time on Amazon. I'm not sure if that still true, if it is true great, if it's not don't be like I did say that welcomes we recorded this bunch of weeks ago, but anyway definitely definitely look into this book. You will not be sorry, there's nothing like that. I'm aware of donors and Dragons ART and our Canada, visual history, and now I hear the Id10T podcast S, number, nine, eighty, nine yeah I just I love the symmetry. I love the symmetry of the night Eighty, nine, here's Kyle Newman, that's role for initiative and even
has selected. Lando Caribbean for his Waterglass, I'm ruined with her I'm rolling with Luke. Today I feel floated look from the cut Siena force awakens were constantly asked, play look on investment. What do you know
we mean you mean like this, like, rather than digitizing a young mark, Hamel, yes, and so they cast a dude and then they cut him out. They caught him and it was supposed to be this pictures God. What was it was an unknown actor and unknown actors or just see the look there's an unknown so who's about results of these were this is when the plot of him, if he was about his hand, got chopped often had the light Sabre get there. So that sequence, where she touches the safer and has a vision. It was really telling you how the Sabre got two MOSS and then Carlo in the knights of rent, steal it from an encampment. They take it from they ve had it and then snakes and steal from them and that's how it ends up back with maws. So this citizen, known actor, is supposed to play young Luke Skywalker and he gets cut out of the movie. So
Imagine getting us wait, I'm gonna get to Luke, Skywalker, yeah, you're gonna be Luke Skywalker and then no you're, not the even had actions, your plant there there was in the line there ever was wondering why there was a Luke, Skywalker, a cloud city. Outfit actually figure and I was wondering: are tools, Is there a vader in a Luke? What's going on and turned out that this was a deleted? The moment it was I haven't seen I didn't see the same. I haven't I've just been kind of working, I haven't actually seen has the scene I've seen it seems you see little snippet of it still in the original in the movie. It's still there just a flash of Luke Investment, but its was bigger moment us, oh my gosh, here, that's ox. For him. That's how did they managed of a for a few years? Well, This is the last image I think that slipped out of people sitting on top of
grit from the force awakens. What secret do you think there are still any unearthed secrets like? Is there a sarcophagus somewhere under Marine County that has region, no stuff that are just like secrets, and maybe most people except for Georgia, forgotten multiple two's. Multiple atoms filled I think there are still so many stories to be told. So much about the bill, This star wars like who really controls. Why? Because there's other people getting cuts that movie that aren't just George in the one per cent of Spielberg off their close encounters handshake right. I think, there's some other people in that financial waterfall. Does it there's an interesting story? to be told about those early days of of Lucas. Nor will it ever be allowed to be told. I think at some point we will have to be told someone will do it and find a way to do it. Author, maybe Georgia, told himself, maybe he will. I don't know, though, he seems to know
wanna be too much in the spotlight. I mean. He said a few. Years ago. I think I maybe have told the story- the the ass before I have this really crazy experience where we helped with this charity auction, and so did. The prize was to have breakfast with George at Skywalker, and so I got to go and have wrecked. Him in this, the dude that one and the dude brother in law through helped him. When and in Georgia said like they're, like also what you gonna do and he's like You know I set aside some money to make. Some movies Go you gonna release of no day was it was, I think, he's been make is experimental, been all the concept was mine blowing to everyone of people like so limited, really We couldn't even understand that is like no literally not show any one. So just small screening. No I'm not going! He just wants to go back.
What he originally was, which was an art film maker and just make experimental we films or not- weird- I don't know, but then then not show them to anybody making is still about the connection to the audience. I think I think part of that is the experience you're, making it for its use, largely a communal experience. Up until recently was just been. You sit in your programme or it's just a medium like a canvas like you could paint and never show it to anyone. I used to do that. I painted a lot and destroyed it. Everything I made through my twenties. I used to paint when I was a sight classically train painter Kennedy. On and have shown by way of Jamie kings with astonishes. Why we're out? Where is this stuff on it? You get back into it and I've thought about getting back into it, but that is a magic do purely for myself. If I draw so, I get that I understood now that process set so interesting, though, because it I mean at some point, I feel it would be really really hard to keep things
he grinned. At some point, I would imagine that, has he made any do you know? I think he's made some I dont know exhibited I'd, have really cool experience with George I got to go. There was that it was at the academy, It was the greatest films that never won the Oscar press picture and we almost always got robbed by any hall and so they are honouring George and showing a screening of new hope and I was sitting one seat away from him and his daughter was in between us. Whither gas, and we got to just listen to the banter between you. And his daughter. She was rubbing him on all the lions and he was kind of, laughing at his own movies was interesting. I mean you see the flaws and he knows it right. It's human! But if you put a mayor it benefits teen. Seventy seven and you're watching you,
like you're. Looking at all the you know of the movie is to pick for firm best film of the year. I feel, like people sitting, have a framework for that kind of movie. Yet this is kind of weird space opera. That was, I mean, listen if, if, if you, if it was The thing that it became. I can see how, if you're an academy, votary be like what is this hokey weirdness? You know it was very weird by. I think, and I think we have the perspective now. This macro look at it too, so how it did change all these literally everything, but it didn't have a cultural impact immediate. Of course it did. Oh, my god, you like it was. I mean I remember how many years older. So maybe even then it was how we older and more close mind as I can see why they didn't honour it, but it still got a lot of accolades in a lot of attention yet very worthy but yeah you're right. It's it's hard like Woody Allen. Anyhow very fine film, but you look back and was going to end
all kinds of another cynically that star wars literally we do have the we do have the historical perspective. I should just back up and everyone. Listening that I've known you probably for ten There's maybe you and I live Aston Tibetan Austin Texas to see when you shows that's right, I was I was I kind of became paths with you. I guess then girlfriend at the time Jamie, King remarried, yet actually Mary we're married by their task as we were living in choosing a shell for ABC me we're living Austin for six months. That's right! We know anybody. She's, like Christmas, come into town and we did when I got this consists. Uk, like I'm city, you came to capacity. I met Jamie on attack of the show she was a guest and I interviewed her and she was really cool. You know like. Oh, my god is this girl the nerdy hearts and and and married the guy who fanboys hands and we had said
two great time we ve been friends, and then it turned out that Lydia Jamie were like best friends separately, and so now we ve now word now we're just like part of Jamie officiated at your wedding, she was yes, she was. I was amazing that really was amazing. That gray that was a really sweet of her. Numerous traps to theme parks, yup, you will the treasure that you ve shared your best friend? I've got a level. We need him go you may you guys didn't know each other before considering the crossover decline and William and and will it obviously red ready player one and- and we're all fan is great to finally meet him in, but it's it's it's it's a really great community. I think out here in in LOS Angeles under the new community. It is very supportive of issue. It is really supportive, which you know it obviously phantom and I ll exact at this with people who were in the specific community, like you know, it is phantom brow
Can right now like a real good place with it? Is it? Is it just because it so big that there are a lot of get a voices controlling cumbersome and the negative. The loudest and most negative voices tend to control most of the conversations across for any topic. Yes and politics, religion, social causes, entertainment, are all dealt with intensity because of those voices. Yeah, there's no nuance anymore. It's like people wanted just unilaterally the loud voices do seem to want to tear down because they see be the most committed to that too? That sort of you know negative cause or Weena good place with it or do you think like adds just you know it's all the same issues. The platforms are different than when we were kids. I think it's a couple weeks. Platforms are absolutely different. I mean used to have wings, I what star wars it bent the tracks that was your community. I was like z level. There was no inner. There is no sheer community, then
have these things like star wars, celebration you're, getting together with people and you see what was still a vibrant, rich, unhealthy community people really coming together. You fifty thousand people you can apply, thy comecon there still general positivity, but the when you do go online. There is therefore no, seventy in a and it. It almost turns me off. I'm a huge star wars fan, but I will say the last year's them the hardest for me. Just I wasn't. A massive fan of philosophy only came out, and I dont know why Had this, this effect of my life. A lot of its due to the the conversation discourse on line, so I can escape at this. It's like this. It's still being put my face. Every day. You don't want to talk about it. You want to have a reasonable conversation, but there are like the place Did you see her, and these cares- and I can't even in age and a reasonable converse, is somewhat upcoming to go you book until piece of shit. Exactly and look
I want to talk about story. I want to talk about form. Only talk about the narrative. I want to talk about the technique and it immediately gets is too well you're, probably all right if you dont like last yet I hope what what now ocean by we'll talk about on a narrative level? Why it? Yes, sir. They work for me and what the merits in here Are there are some really wonderful things in a too so I can't be conflicted in and social media. You have to be one thing and stand for one thing: in a tattooed on your face: you like I've been using the word binary so much on the pact, but that's what it's absolutely bind it like. The larger group gets the more binary, positions are yeah where's. You know when you shrink a group down you get down to one on. What are you going to some of the smaller separate it? You can have nuance conversations, you can agree, you can disagree compromise, but but on a scale you the larger the group gets the more binary the positions get and then it becomes impossible to have to have
actually said you over the past year, something I'm not talking about star wars, anymore, probably doesn't serve me a bright right now, breaking it, but I'm innocent waning. Why are you not to go into detail now? I'm just it just it's not that it doesn't make me happy to do it and I'm just gonna see things that the Duma happy and I put another foot into dungeon and dragons. I feel like that communities in a much more positive place. There isn't a divide, and I think it's because you know what they're putting out there is something that is tapping into old nostalgia and, at the same time, doing something fresh and exciting, and it's not alienating anyway. It's actually really inclusive. Will it ran right? Yes, because was. The very nature of how the game is played is, by definition a small community of people, in a laboratory, storytelling, it'll work together, you have to be together. You really mean I'm sure you, you know I am sure you can play you know network, but in its perfect for mere and a group of six or eight people
and you're all facing each other. Using your imagination: analogue, yes, you're, actually using pencil in pay you have rolling dice your touching things other than your phone. Without getting those updates said you can on for seven hours and twenty four minutes atomic those a bit on Twitter either it's it's just too much It's nice to get face to face with people. Put your ticket you down and do something as a little community as family yeah. I sum I still have my original d and e books. I dont I dont have like the original original. Like those papery very asked that, like that came in the Box of Lakes, lip real bogs, yeah in eighteen. Seventy four, I think girls, but but I got mine, we, I don't know eighty or eighty one or something out at original, where the elect monster manual, woman, Dm Guide and faithful heart.
Covers. Sovereignty is again like all these really great hard covers an end. The I had placed maybe the monster manual. I had hamsters and I placed it on top of the hamster cage cause they kept getting out somehow and they choose now in the back and one which now it's kind of a weird badge of honor, so I survived it survives like they have, Sir, didn't make the throne didn't get out, but he did do damage to the book. Note. Those are somewhere, but so you know my my history with deeds. Back to eighty or eighty one- and I remain but there was a mini ex. There was an explosion of d and e and then roleplaying game like all these other think Boot Hill was. There was a western one cause wooed held him in there was this I want that. I came on board, it was called, and then there were few more those top is in topsy. Turvy am, I might have been, and then the ninja
those palladium eyes to play Steve Jackson's groups in car wars, and I played the western star wars. There is had a huge explosion of of our beaches. Are inspired by the indian six ass, but many early eighties and dungeon dragons was just it's like a rock and roll time. With so many it became heavy metal. I think fused with the satanic panic, a permanent underground screw you vibe to outwards little renegade in people than stand up at the people that did had to like entrench in it, and we have had you had to work. You had to. I mean anything that you put in an emotional investment into, or financial investment into, or a time investment in young is going to like the more investment you put in the more special it's gonna, be an you really had to you had to do a lot of work to seek out other players. Get the equipment learn how to play
the game without being able to go online and quickly look up rules. You had to go to a hobby, shopper, game shop and you know wait to meet people, and- and you know it was typically these groups of people. Were generally historically outcast from other groups that, yes, the sort of the trial am groups yeah, it's just like you know, give us your tired, your poor, your nerves, yes like all in one group, and so, You really had to work for it and seek it out. It was not. It was not easy to a couple of kids from banned. A couple. A trench got mafia type complicates from metal sharp rise. A couple of goober nerds. It was a whole mix of people ends. I, along with everybody, says I They got into the the the groups you know, but I didn't play at first. I was peripherally involvement. Older brothers played they would go to bed our camp and the other for a week and visit them and in their tent. They be playing there homer version with of the indian TS, our rules, but in
Jones or, if he's having different, they were so into it that they will do their own thing, and I would just flip through the books I learned how to draw was slipping through. MR manuals you're, looking at the modules, so I was like me too, I was like not allowed at the table not In a mean wave and I've just around us too little to really grasp the concepts, because it really game that takes off in your ten eleven when you're can be. When you can read when you can do the math and you can handle some of those concepts and it gets very are rated. So it was. It was part of my life, but I wasn't directly in it entails more like eleven or twelve. What do you think it is
I am always fascinated by them the lure of particularly new culture to fantasy, and I guess I always sort of justified by you know. Most nerds did not enjoy their reality, and so they were very good or maybe by survival emotional survival, excellent at conceiving these fantastical worlds. These idealized or you know, magical realms where they were powered or where they could, you know, to some degree control happens, true identity create a new identity. A lot of those things are, I think, are very this role and real, like do identity, creating a world escapism control, yet being First of all, don't have in there's a group that does it and then you finally hat you belong to something that you're not doing on again.
Your scale socially back at school. I think that's! That's! Definitely all part of it was just that for me, because I wasn't like it and I got low with everybody but didn't really fit in anywhere, but I still love this retelling ass, my damn it I like that. You could go and do anything but it wasn't coming you just you you are openly talking about in, middle school. How or why there is like a five, but it was the kind of like a fun secret. They had an you know. Having twenty cited die in your pocket. It was just a totem for something for something really special but dont get it. I mean I can't it's obviously not a coincidence that you know. Obviously asleep t came on seventy four, but let's just say you know, STAR wars Assent Seven in between, me seven. Eighty four, you have this explosive right. Eyes in personal computing
genre sigh five fantasy films, dandy, video games, home video games. They all are happy at the same time, and so it is what's the connective tissue between. All of those things and that that period being such fertile soil between technology and also you know storytelling bees- are people consuming and playing it I dont know if all those creators of those things in Ten and George Lucas and allow these important note transformative visionary, guys who are part of that eight year period. Ten year period, I don't they will another. All the nurse the outcasts, but they were the ones building these tools in these games in a carriage guy gets wasn't totally. You know
like a quarter quote freak. You know he was just like a guy who is a cobbler needs like I, like these workings and evolved into this, but get everyone took to it and who took two. It was was a lot of the you know the MILAN and in misunderstood teenagers, and so I think, that's That's, what's fascinating, Nintendo this product out of Japan suddenly was in everybody's household. I know with it, but it's but but there's something that happened culturally. That was unrelated but related. Yet all of these these are coming together. Apple computer, like ever, like Army heeds. Yes, all of these things are happening in the same culture and it overlapped overlapped in a healthy way where you could be into a sir have a music. You could be in the star wars. You could also be into video games, it was it was it all like coalesced Indus, like the dismal, I guess and metal to you and metal yeah You look.
Now and a lot more subdivisions, everything has to be really classify and there's overlap, but it's the community's are much more codified, whereas there like this Zeit, guys think something just happened with nerd culture and exploded in every direction. It's really fastening because you look at all that stuff now it's still what people go back to in mind as they look forward it still with their tapping into when they're looking for property sits, it's it's just as important. Now, as it was, I think, when it kind of starting point the culture on a mass level. Are we not? I don't mean to veer back into star wars yeah too much, but what can we at least admit that its very difficult like when you saw when we saw things kids and we think back about how
We were growing up. Everything was amazing and new thing sock now at least meaning to ourselves like when you were a kid, and you see some- you know like you, you haven't had a lot of experience as yet see something that fundamentally expands the you're in your mental horizons. You have these transformative experiences and those types of transforming experiences just become less and less likely. They all do you get because you're more experience, you ve seen more things, you're kind of used to it. You see, and so you know to be, comparing to look at you know new star wars. Films are knew anything now go on this new stove, our no. We know back in the old it's a camp. When you were a kid, then- and everything was bigger to you when you were a kid in everything- was more impact for when you were a kid. So do we? That is the challenge. How do we appreciate things on a grating on a curve, but you, I don't know few necessary half do you might have to you. I think there are with you might have to compartmentalize
but you can make a new star wars film, without having it subvert. Purposely everything that came before you can still go. Take the tools, the hope and- the scope and everything that George established alleys, the creators and move into a fresh new direction without having to undermine We think that came before I dont know that and a healthy way. I don't know that's possible, though, because it still, if its, if it's too much new, directly elected by the people whose lives the Knacker people complaints is just that because no like centralized judgment body, it's just whoever is the most annoyed. Yes, so noble like fifth addition: dungeon dragons yeah. I got back into that in twenty fifteen this. Why start writing a book there, was one of the most important things about. It was a whole new experience was those moments? I was a kid I want to do this This is amazing. I don't wanna live in the row I wanted to doing it was it was that it simplified the game play it simplified it.
I'd taken such a break from the game and then, when I got back into it, it was. It was a whole new thing felt like I was a teenager discovering again for the first time you everybody they got into it the same experience and that's why and it was a poor thing, it didn't feel like? It was muddled by expectations from the past, and maybe it's because I took like a twelve year hated. From it and came back and strong. Like lowers the book on the history of what in our midst- and there wasn't one, but I think I got back into in such a big way in the end and such like and honestly pure way, we're didn't feel like I was always is good as this house, comparing it, I maybe status into what they didn't, how they simplify it. Maybe it's just the the break I took from it. You'll, maybe sores like you need, maybe need a little break from something to go back and look at it. With the perspective, but I think I did have that fresh experience where wasn't contaminated by the past,
wasn't totally condemn any by nostalgia. It wasn't. I did have to compare it yeah, you gotta, you got to start almost can I can I can. I can normally separate that, with with with things I love I the star, sprinkles and I know they're there made differently and they are their different time and people grew up and expected something. But respect to George was inclusion very, very big ideas, virgin birth and chosen? What I didn't have to go there and visually expanded the language of star wars with those films and on a technological level, which I think is something there is missing from the new Disney instalments, and I think we, as the patient, out? There is no innovation is not also synonymous with the brand of star wars. Do not really taking you any new in terms of cinema technique or see? Gee I mean you look at the FED menace and there like everyone,
hates that movie, because they say it's most see Gee? I filmed I've ever seen. Yet the phantom menace has more model effects in it than any other film in history times too it's the most model heavy detail craft orientated film ever made He made it independently with his own money, but it was sold and marketed at the time night. Nine lcd. I because they thought this. We're gonna, sell you the future and you look at the forest force awakens and they could not stop talking about how old school, how much more work was in Amity puppets, yet they're, probably more see gee in the force awakens then in the first act of fundamental about whether the funny thing that which is incredible higher third act as it is a siege cutting I'd like the movie, but I'm just sing it where you sell the product right, they are selling us nostalgia and tangible models and puppets enforce an
and fundamental selling us the future, and we believe these stories we no one's gonna go out for Sweden to such a throwback was all puppets. What inoffensive menace was all Georgia Just say something at this. Breakfast was really funny because it was a subtle acknowledgement of you know. He said something like we're talking about technology in Eastern Germany, everyone wants to you, know, trashed our banks, but without charge or pinks there would have been an avatar. In other words like we, you don't like it was the foundational technology that lead to. You know that that Georgia was essentially sort of a gateway to this. The higher form, see that was around and Warner characters like Watto and suburban pottery sequencer still better than like visual effects and Movies Fox was putting antiquities levity. Nineteen only live it's like its assent. Thing how, on our point it was you could Jurassic Park in the dinosaurs that movie
There's a little better than movie is a better have been both with the came out the summer. How is that possible? Do people not care? I dont know, because we do. We do have this sort of something more law and our head that it's like. It's always gonna get better and you look at stuff like now. I still think it It's it's the integration, it's it's. I think how film choose to integrate. There's a lot of impossible angles like I love the Lord of the Rings trilogy, but the stuff- that's the worst for me as when they have those cut scenes through through orkan, kept me then you go like underground you're sweeping through its most impossible camera move ever and then do you feel cgi, but when it's I once incorporated, I think an organ ways with camera, Ngos that are just mean to standard filmmaking, then can work some real magic in it. I think you kids and I the character. Animation innovation that was on display in in phantom menace
have will let the the movie, but he put a hundred and fifteen, dollars own money and made an independent film and set about listening to any executives, not listened to anybody we'll make my movie, though I want to make it and that's what my head: that's rare, that somebody has the resources to that, be the the fortitude to go. Do it, and see can just go see how fucked up in a mint amazing way, in a amazing way, if one of experimental films that Georgia's making another step backwards movie that he just didn't tell anyone about. I love that he was. He was developing this new trilogy himself and I thought your fans just turned off here Why would I would make a star wars home and everyone hates me? So that's one of them. He saw the brand was because the polluted, so sure, media and and and phantom I mean he was developing whole metrology That said it is, and he was gonna shoot it on his property up at up your big rockies a new studio and San Francisco
one of them would let him Odin, it coincided with negative fan stuff like the rightful galiodin and and tea in his response. So what his original visualizing the ominous set up this world and I'm gonna, let Filmmakers complainant. That was always his vision. One of the complaint in Eighteen- ninety nine two thousand to two thousand five: he ended five those himself he reached out other filmmakers. He was gonna, try and produce it like you did with Urban Kirshner enrich remarks, but nobody, nobody stepped up. He went guys exit MECCA some hours and Spielberg in unison seeing Howard finally comes back in and a solo, but at the time he wasn't gonna direct them all, but he did it because he I people afraid yet another we're talking about this. I guess the peoples were really sort of the big
king of the modern era of mass angry phantom, because that's right about when you know everyone has the internet you know I mean that everyone really had broadband and ninety nine, but everyone have the internet. You know most people have AOL counts, chat rooms, you don't people were when we Edna Divan was exactly where we did, because I felt it was. That was the schism everything split after that, there is. There is a pure time or just like the optimism look afford what things could be versus the minute the movie starts and you gotta Vader in it's, not what you thought. I was gonna, be at an age with you and we have witnessed Argentina, China from eighteen. Seventy, four, nineteen, eighty four that time what was so foundational for people and then we expected a selfishly it for it to age with us. We had matrix earlier that summer. Ninety nine United everyone wanted star wars to be like matrix like where these effects where these pv.
But star wars with those more objective, myth and so really wanted it to grow up with us, and I guess georgian These are not making a movie for eight year olds. Well, that's what I'm interested just deal I've, nieces, nephews and young kids and mice. My two sons are really into star wars, another three and five, and I didn't force it upon them in any way. They just naturally started to discover it. They got books from people for birthdays. To be like Darth Vader mean they just started to really loved the characters and they like care, I our banks and suburban and water, and and since then we have, they got to meet Hayden Christian said and it was like. Meeting God it was, it was amazing, cause they're like and for them. Like it what they weren't They just looked at all the stronger thumbs and an honest way like I, like all all these movies. Now most people would say, like hey fuck you I get to have my own opinion.
Sure, and I would say yes of course, but I would with two caveats, number one you don't have to, press your opinion in the most murderous way. Passing zackie less toxic language possible. There is a difference between expressing your opinion and just wanting to destroy something you know, probably because Europe unhappy, but but also you know what do you think, the percentage of what's the percentage of rage? That is purely not really about the phantom thing. But just more about the empowerment of being able to destroy something. That's a little bit more for you know like I'm, rushing out at the world, because I'm unhappy about some like what what percentage conversation do, you think, is being controlled by opinions that again I want to be careful about how a phrase this, but respectfully but art net severally fully about the thing know what I mean that I'm just not necessarily as by guess all things are subjected, but I mean do you see
with those you actually feel like just taking notes, star wars, for example. Right now I feel like the last year. It was and about the content and was just about a lot more. Like solo took a hit on the chin, because people didn't like another felt me can say whatever you want. It definitely suffered a bit at the box after six people had like fatigue from last shot. I that's that's like that. In actual fact- and I ended people are going on talking about these things because because they can't and they're going to be negative about it and I think this is inescapable. Thou and I've ever think it is fused o things more than just purely analyzing, the content that was put in front of you. It's heavily fused with just other anger. Yeah I mean because it I guess
a more crystallized version, what I'm saying is there's a difference between saying, like I don't like this movie and hey. Let's give this of two percent on rotten tomatoes: let's collectively go out and campaign to tear this thing down and to me that's not necessarily. The same is like that's just more campaigning, for even if it s out and that's not healthy, I've heard yet that's I've, real basic philosophy and treat other people and strangers greater than equal and everybody did that we would have no no world. If everybody is approached, I give everybody more than the benefit of the doubt before I know them. What you're gonna do you treat? Everybody has a stranger greater than equal. If we did that, we wouldn't have problems in the internet, that place. Everyone uses the anonymity to speak. The trawling and all their eggs and projected want everyone else. Yet there there's no basic decorum, there's no code for it. And I guess that's what's hard for like older nerds like myself, who remember, pray
in an area like there was time where we didn't have all these awesome. Things like we really had to. I mean even to say that there was an explosion of between seventy seven and eighty four, it still minuscule compared to the explosion of things that we have now and there's, even in others, people playing the indeed than there are in when you would consider that That time is when it first exploded and it's like can't. We just have nice things. They can't we just not unload all our personal baggage and imprinted on two things that it's not necessarily about still be able. Express. Are you know like not liking of something but just having the goal of like lit Balkan burn at all. You know, I think that things like our either had modern media age and general. It's like Nixon onward. It's like the the Woodstock Vietnam generation onward, it's the disillusionment and then people feel, like you when ago protest it I'm gonna, be ok to be vocal about
and I don't just wanna perpetuate. A singular reality that everyone is trying to make me stick together. I mean with everyone's ok express your opinions. You know, but also like. What's your goal like? What do you want to evils goal is, is anarchy or ups, having someone else because is likely that ultimately Europeans they dont have to you not gonna, win an argument on the internet that there's no award for that. No one's ever been awarded. The winner of the internet. It doesn't happen. It's like I've waited out all those conversations and realize ill it. If someone enjoys it, that's amazing, if you enjoy something, someone else doesn't great, let them enjoy it like move along, but you'll have to sit there and and in a pick it apart and pick them apart. Consequently, yeah, I mean, if you know, if you, if you're just some random nerd, any town, USA who in your generally dissatisfied and then all of a sudden you
have the power to like, potentially get something unmade wow, that's I'm sort of understand and its nose get off your nose you're. No one of these five people, like that symbiotic relationship, was established by suit studios. They go to COMECON and they would make people feel like how important they were. Yes, this you get to see this exclusive trailer early and your bus comecon didn't like. They need Isaac. Unlike the Unita yeah you now, oh, how can we use that will in which it which is just like you know? Let's not forget there were a time when you know this Communities were heavily asters. It's like and so I think in away. That's why you like of all groups that should understand why you shouldn't oh- and you know, be narrow, minded and tear down for the sake of tearing down or bully people. It's like the group that was torn down and bullied. You know the protocol there was an urgent legal acts. Aim yards a guy's, no come on. It's isn't
playground can't we all just saved my my film fanboys that was established community one online and talked was very vocal about it, and then we went to some troubles and ultimately, that community became very vocal about me getting the the movie back. It was like this weird thing with the internet spoke and in a way they had to listen and does bizarre as bizarre, because it had nothing to do with the business. Industry has nothing to do with the merits of what anyone was doing behind the scenes. It was just fan reaction, yeah ends. You know to make a movie about phantom did you feel like you yourself, was elevated as a spokesman for phantom in some way that you didn't necessarily want now In that way, I felt the did the extreme obligation to to do what has to be. I set out to do and promised to do too. George Lucas stood to look. As I said, I'm not gonna. I will poke fun at the bramble, not disparage the brand or the fans period.
And I will at all my name on that and I think in in their ideas on how to make the movie bigger and more mainstream like well. This does not advance, but we can also make fun of them, and let's do this with you crawl in the cut the movie, that's adsum stuff, that's kind of throwing the community under the bus and both violated me and my. Moral code as a filmmaker. What I promised, because I was playing and so also sandbox, and also I think, your art stuff with the brain- could be the very strict peachy, thirteen final rating with them and they are pushing it enter into our territory and contesting how far George would let them go with things. So I felt that obligation to just everyone I pray
Must everyone I hired to everyone. I cast we all on the same page. We said we want. This is what the tone of what we want to make. This is the spirit of it and we don't want to deviate from that, because that's the important message how you honor phantom and a time period authentically, will experience that were part of that we said we know. What this needs to be. Do you think there will never be in a sort of extra bit by the way? How healthy is the star wars, cinematic universe right now. Is it going to expand as much as we had thought it would have to force awakens or they pairing it back a little bit. I think it. Going to it- may take a step back, so it can go to step two steps forward. I think it's gonna keep expanding star wars is. I think the pre eminent gold standard franchise Disney knows that Marvel, is had a wonderful moment, I dont know how long it will sustain, considering where they can go with characters. I think, as a world star wars has built a war,
old, insanely, J Corralling, has bought a world with Wizard World STAR Wars has the pre eminent world that everyone wants to play. It's to go play in in middle earth so's strictly spoken, foreign written and there's a very finite tone to an all right, stalwart, there's room to go, do things and I think that's exciting about it and their figured that out only made road. What rogue one they said. It's not gonna feel like a star wars, film, but ultimately spend another hundred a million dollars and receipts and immediate feel like a star wars, film, because our unless what that's, what its own genre, STAR is a hundred. It's not. You can't go means more than generous it, a catch all for all the it's. It's screwball comedy its western. Its samurai, its pulpit space, fancy, it's all call into something I'll chemic and you don't go away who's gonna go make a war film, it's called star wars, is a war film. Yes, you don't go as ever. Gonna go make a samurai home, but that's not what it is
it's more than that. Will then is it will ever get gritty with it and do like like horror or like a star. Wars even are rated. You know like something darker order when the duchess completely they could. I know George to himself developed at Underworld series, and it was supposed to be much more- are rated deadwood style there is that, alas, to city in the brain, to do that. I don't think the time is right now. I wonder if the fans will stand for that, if they d like it says you ve soiled like they don't need. Another reason to feel like things are changing that dramatically. So if they do that, if you like it's pretty far up but a fuckin are rated Deadwood, Dial STAR wars movie in some on some outpost. Somewhere near the. I think there are three main Delorean show. Looks, looks wonderful, adapt! That's coming next year, that's bars more western troops, but I think it's that probably gonna get a little
our car. I don't know man what the tone is, but it could for sure, and I think it could still work and fit right in televisions, a great place to experiment which farmers some of those Ex expanded, tones and textures, rather than doing it. On the other two hundred, fifty million dollar move. You have four hundred a million dollars marketing behind. I think you can. You can test the threshold of the And in other mediums, yet I think they're going to they have too, because their building to massive theme parks right but also in a new, and I was just a Disneyland a week last week and in every time you write big thunder you just you to the crest of big thundering. You see star wars, lessee home yeah. See all the scaffolding of that, and it looks incredible and looks supposed to be obvious.
You know that I represent crews. Has I as a good luck? I finally did I been years. I saw like some of the rocks and really close. It's just. I mean it's a funny to me that you know one of the things that they replaced. The two stop is like well at sea. Petting, zoo or star wars, star wars. I somebody miss that barbecue ridge, but yes, on tat- head square dancing there, but I guess maybe star wars, and I guess I'm gonna go as our planet but too, but you know again because we're in positions where week by the way, would you I do? what people understand also that things never is easy, as they seem like, wouldn't when people say events eyes like will, if I were in charge of franchise, this is what I would do. There is level of Dunning Krueger effect where it's like you don't know.
Enough to know what you don't know about how things work so to say like. Why would have just done this? It's like your deal. Went way more com, it's so complicated egos and personalities, s and line items on and entertainment. Pilots write offs in you know parisian in licensing in you know it's like you, you, basically with a brain like stars. You have to satisfy like a thousand different things, somehow and We can. All answer must stay true to what you, what you think is the the code, the laws of the brand. It's it's incredibly daunting and I think it's it's still threading it'll. Just like George had do duty, those original thought, but it can be done. Get. The agenda is one of the boldest independent films because he took Darth Vader. Greatest. Villain of all time, said ravages doing to lay up and making him the villain he's gonna humanising adamantine created even scarier. Villain
and I want to make this message at the end of the movie, about rejecting your elders and Yoda until we want a wrong and look throws down? His sabre doesn't even know why he goes in all directions he didn't have to do. He didn't make the easy and it was an old god. He walks and Bobo, but the film itself is pretty bowl. In hindsight, we look at em ago, it's just its whatever since he walks by those choices on a business level on a creative level on a financial level is not a risk thirty five million dollars of your own money in saying we want to take the greatest villain of all time in and make him a good guy now, and you haven't that's also just kind of. Honouring. I mean that Do you have a trilogy yeah? You know. Like really sort of like wrapping something up and free movies and having this large arc it, I still think it was a satisfying end because the basically the value of
so many the main characters changed. Han solo changed. Lay a changed. Loop changed I ordered a hobby, the the greatest hero arc on film in three movies. It's a fantastic character arc it. I don't think it's. In duplicated last, fifty years in terms of like a hero franchise? I can name one that has the same type of breath is as Luke Skywalker. Ours has been great stuff in literature, but looks like Did you mine, when you anytime, you soldiers? George Lucas was there with their questions that you like? I gotta ask. I just gotta ask: did you? Did you ask questions things that you I need to know. Where were you pretty? Did you try to no, I never did. I have a list. Gas it's on my phone. Nevertheless, that the questions that I want certain threats to at least inklings idleness. I want the direct answers, but maybe in cryptic Yoda type way, comport point me in the direction or its hidden in the scripture
decoded, a lot of those movies. I think I really understand. Why they work and why expanded universe worked in what the importance of these things were in that Brandon and it's how it endured wide endured expanded universe. The got reset with force awakens. Is that pretty much how it worked? Yes, so It's a half of all the stories and all the things that they have been working on for you, no thirty, five years or whatever just like it became Legends Emmy, it's still there for you to go, enjoy its. You can pick up the book off your book. Shuffling array, Timothy's ants AIR, the empire trilogy, which is fantastic, bore the dark lords, the Sith book. Another wonderful, you know novel I've read all of them,
don't feel let down by the fact that they did that it was almost innocence they had to because so much had been created, and you can't go make a filmmaker like J J room to be beholden to all this prior history. If you're trying to work with the oppressed on a film makers and writers and producers. You have to say, you know we're gonna, give you a relatively blank slate and was used the films as the dockworkers. I guess at that point it would be so difficult, like everything would violate. Machinist solo was their daughter and there was a There was one it was never official cannon, but something that I wanted to see made. There was a story called skipping. Yet I dried and it was The idea was that our five d was basically the spirit of this jet. I that essentially, I believe, helps led like help sort of connect, the dots to get Luke to where he needed to be,
and I think they were part, maybe justifying like any blues motivator Sunday. I throw the game here about this out at once. What was this Skippy? The general droid is in a page, comic story featured in star wars. Tales number one written by Peter David, take place shortly before up some foreign feet our five De Forest Skippy, Obi, WAN Kenobi leaves a canteens sensing the force and someone, but no matter how hard he looked. He was unable to find anyone, despite his great ability in the forest, suddenly unbent. Still, we want an astronaut droid serving drinks. A job is palaces bumped into by both of it spilling one of his drink Ms Tray, but before going at the ground, the drawing near our five before is able to reach out with his mind and turn the drink back in its upbraid position and servant to job in the hut. Thankfully, nobody had noticed what just happened as it had gone by so fast and one day, our five removed as restraining boat with the force and forced persuaded the Gomorrah and guards to let him leave. Skippy wondered the desert for days in search of his destiny until he found was picked up by a jolly sand, crawler variant, visions of Darth Vader in Princess Leia, and
are too detailed and see three people eventually, the central stopped, took all the joy out and line them up side by side in front of own Lars and Luke Skywalker Skippy immediately sense. Before Luke and persuaded owing to choose him Skippy was extent, if the undoubted destiny that lay before him and Luke, however, are five, and that without Luke Structure was come and take our two back to Vader we're here be destroyed and lay would be killed, leading to achieve reaction of horror that will include the rebellion being destroyed. Our five memory being wiped out receive repeal refuses to translate, is rubbish and look dying on tattooing without it forever without ever fulfilling his destiny. Our five knew what he had to do and suddenly set off mild explosion inside himself leading Luke to believe that he had Bob? did. Motivator Skippy then use the fourth seats bbl telling Luke by our two instead Owen, did so leaving our five to be destroyed by a stray storm, trooper blasts during later raid, with nobody ever knowing the great deed that our five has just done. Why
love this story because glue. I think I did have that issue. I have all those all star wars, which is why I wanted our five it's. Why he's my favorite- and I wanted to meet our wedding and I want to know the moraine halfway through and have the job was come out and you know- and I took ring from him? He was the ring bare and because He to me represents what I think so many nerds I, which are unsung heroes. It's like even That's not cannon! I like to believe the story and it yeah like he's the almost famous of the Droid worlds in a weird way, but he still if hadn't happened and we wouldn't have gotten the story so he's the fulcrum, he's he's. Basically, you know he's the first some domino that sets all the signs of that there's a good book. The polish recent called a certain point of view and its forty short stories that tells the story of a new hope, but from
and slowly character. Point of use is a dialogue, is for sensitive her name is o me. I think and she would she wraps or tentacles around Luke she sent. His his force potential and unlike lets him go, and this whole thing with than and its it just is opening its official cannon. But it's these conjectures by different authors about other ways: the what happened just offscreen or just before, or a devil have looking at the scene in the movie, which can like that. Schwartz Robots, Gibbey S, pretty cool and again you know it's that's how the universe is an even though its not cannon that doesn't mean that it can still inspired imagination or affect us or get us engaged in the story. It's like your kid doesn't give a shit. If it's like this isn't a fit. I mean some kids might, but still it just like that story tell to be able to find I remember I love the action figures so much. It's like what the
is hammerhead. You know it's like who I can buy this actual figure like they had the presence of mind to create action figures for characters. Don't say anything. And those action figures were one of the biggest reasons why star wars were successful because he captured your imagination and then you had three years to go home and you played and you created and used to stories? That's what inspire people to do, go home and tell stories as what the Indians pursued with those tell your own stories and the actual figures with the tools to do that. It is little things in your pocket. You go, do whatever you want with them and their characters that you barely saw, and you could tell the story of why they were there, and I think that's so important that that was another big thing. It was happening You have. Seventy seven to eighty four era was the explosion of mirth nice, film, based merchandise and media based merchandise, from he man all stuff that you could take home. You have the either what these that the commercial slash cartoon by then you
go experience in play, it you're gonna have new. I completely forgot about that too, that the whole of the revolution happened as well, and people there really. I mean toys before that, we're just like Lincoln logs a couple of digger the dog. Yet, like yes, marvel, sit and spin marvel heroes and pajamas and a fuckin be begun one or two Diego's that air, because there was not the six million dollar man you haven't, you could look through the back of his head and he had a little trouble I, but it would. That was a revolution right. There thing Lego, also like things like upgrade from from Lincoln logs to like, but I think it was our I'm sure there was also you know, culturally, it had some it had a lot to do with where our pay, Its generation was, as you know, the baby boom. The baby boomers come out of the greatest generation. It's like you know they had a handful of years. To sort of I don't know it's every general
I feel it gets a little bit more of an extended analyzing sixties lay I had the teenagers started to have disposable income, their jobs and they are actually storing the market thanks to them. That coincided with experts. If we go in music and the early sixty Anna and inappropriate no more war era, I'm sure you parents are wanting kids to feel safe and it's like we're. War, you know it's like. We got the World WAR two. We out of the Vietnam WAR were like. Let's just give, our kids boys. Let's make him happy, let's, given the childhood, that we didn't necessarily have, because we all thought you know because the cold, We will be here because of their maybe some massive nuclear yeah yeah in, and so you know making a little more money? Let's, let's, let's give our kids the luxury lives that we didn't necessarily have. Even the music of the air has been a romantic risks isn t it a lot of fanciful pop in all its it.
All was part of that. That moment. I think it's the definite as the second of the psychological and Allison of it I'm sure had something to do with the impending nuclear pocket. But that's why you know in a lot of grow up to be able to explore phantoms and such interesting ways and sort of being service to our childhood selves and be able to try to manifest You know the best or most positive or whatever kind of version of those when we when we were kids- and it is interesting to me that this book that you had a part in putting together the dna book, by the way is called art and our canna visual history that there were really anything like it before which is kind of mine blowing. To me I mean I'm sure there are. You know there were other we'll bits of GNP history, but nothing. This comprehensive and to tell story through the arts. Is such a great point of
you in the history of it, because that's part of what drove it was income. Bring me the imagination and engaging because you know we didn't have moving video screens yeah. Now you can go watch you two five minutes to understand how the game was plainly. He can watch critical rohingya like oh that's what it is, but critical role is an incredible like see it now and you go we of course what a great idea. You know it's like a group of really talented, funny people who yet voice actors that are so that no the game and now basically like the voice of a generation of d,
people in Europe want to notify us for that. One way to play the game, which is wonderful, they're, just good story. Every street, you love these characters: net spawned others, this community's fan art and everything in there. It's a real force, and will you look at the visual history, the game back and back at the beginning it was so abstract and so weird to people like what? What actually is it that the art was? I keep painting, it was so basic that said, you can go, stabbed this guy in the back and steel cement oppress. That's it like that's what they are told you how the games to be played. You look at that the famous players handbook cover and yet that pick that painting had to tell you what the game was was a key. We murdered some lizard people put their bodies on an altar. This gas cleaning, the blood of his sword. There's a wizard talking him about what the next steps are. There's other guys, perusing a map. There's people dividing treasure, there's these other guy Upon the the eye this jeweled, I had this statue ripping its ripping itself, Jim die out. Not not realising there might be a curse info,
It just shows you in this broad space like this is what the game cubic. Yes, at the intersection of fantasy and mass. Yes, that an art, Thou art had to do that. You known right now, you see the art in its majestic cinematic. They look like concept art for over a movie. You know, and it's a different because now we know more what the game is, but back then had it was very rudimentary and fundamental, yeah, but I too like explain the abstract, but there was thing also very connective about- much in the way that like when you watch a Youtube video and it's very kind of you down and dirty ingredient kind of and the more kind of amateurish le, very oral amendment, but the more authentic it is and that regional deity are just about like every kind of doodles and you nobody kind of Ba anyone who had like a modern, a moderate interest in drawing. It was like that. It's, like the characters, work perfectly
structured, but it was the shape of the thing and there was something kind of cool about it that within sort of go I'm later to become like you know, that Napoleon Dynamite is that if you know it was a catch all for north mythology like all these, the creatures, greek creatures and traditional fantasy and talking so in all all became part of this catch. All this corky catch all were anything could go, and I think that's what would so unique and fascinating about early De India, because in corporate everything from all types of folk lore and then the arch God Fuckin a Maitland. Then it got there like a little can now we have learned a lesson of ancient and they got money as the original or their paying one or two dollars an image. They had a hundred dollar art budget for the rich litter One hundred dollars was all they could spare for the artists and two of the artist. Were women that Gary New and the other two were teenage boys, and so he just tapped into who
had the most skill around him in mission that give two weeks ago, draw forty pictures and It was swipe they would lead. Look at early issues of Marvel comics in their tracing. A doctor, strange or or fury but putting a sword in his hands have a gun and those became these really funds images in the in the early pamphlet, so it was more acceptable them. There was more affectionate like I love comic book- and I, like this post- is gonna Hoarser hamlet, swipe at how much direction at getting words like omega cobalt or go make up the holder like for years. They good example with Beholder Gary handwritten notes where it's a central I with ten I stocks, so the artist went off and drew an image, and we will we heard this image existed and we we struggled to track down. We go into the artist himself and he said he didn't recall ever drawing it, but we found it in its colleagues. We call the ground beholder. That's what's known, as so: the creature, the beholders not floating,
Gary Dimension, that is just rooted to the ground, like a roper, if you ve ever played Dean D with with these large tentacles, but there I stocks and its on page thirty, the book and as like, it's called bigeye and its. Gary's no thrown on the images is don't use you mean. You literally said you know that it's a two five had a dragon and these are the colors and go so. Where do you look to that? There's nothing like that prior Euro kids dragons look like, but where the way, how are the legs, even even in Lord of the rings like what is it? What's the dragon really look like in this world, the verbal Visual vernacular of the game wasn't fully formed and I was so it went through enough ocean- and we do these these call out in a book- and these subsections called evolutions where will get some of the famous creatures like mine, flares or I bears or behind
errors or even characters extravagant, will look at the way they evolved through. Their inclusion in the game is, but the most important creatures had evolved. And stuck around since original dd or relatively you early days like the older, is probably the most important monster ip birth from this game. Obviously their works, I get a lot, but original Dundee type I pay you got my players whose his and Albert slowly up the but the beholder is most iconic. I think, because it also the most deadly yeah and via the first drawing near he left off the fact that numerous should be floating or maybe he saw that and realized. I need to make a floating, but wasn't in his original notes to make it a hovering beast, and so then in them I guess a sort of mid two ladys and then you have a d did show which, of course I was, Nineteen, eighty three in conjunction with Marvel
it only ran fur thing. Was twenty six squeeze out of danger? I will I am a massive fan of of that show and Its surprisingly, I mean it's predictable and your vendor getting causally defeated by. They go to some interesting places with the characters, especially in that in the proposed final episode, never got made? There is a real schism in the group and they really hamlet, like a character like a dandy adventuring party, would without will live it was. I thought it was an interesting and now that I obviously an older and have more perspective on it, because, obviously we haven't really gotten the dean De Movie that we need now, and so I can that's a challenge. But that but the way to tell that serious to make dungeon master a character to make him a character in the thing, and then you're sort of watching a adventure rather than try
to make it like first person in in the sense that you know that we're gonna tell this. Particular story, and that's why it's hard to make a move. But two series of adventures of many campaigns as they're trying to fight venture and my favorite epoch was where all their weapons lose all their power, so they have to go Oh to wear their weapons were forged, and then they like kick the shit out of venture because they are there happens or like China. Super charter. Seattle charged- and you know it too, and I anything The show that still I just I just every watch it every year to just three watched the whole cycle of it, I'm a massive fan of it. I think the deed indeed been transit under them into other mediums has there's some challenges because it is while they developed the chauffeur. Saturday morning. Cartoons and the early He's Gary was in LOS Angeles, developing deemed a movie and he's watching all these movies. I Conan and Excalibur bees.
Everyone's calving success and his movie proposal was very much like the emissaries were kids were brought into. Another world ends from earth can, like throughout the Universe year they crossing whom we all know you don't need to do that to make a successful Dundee movie Just- The game doesn't mean it has to be a game, and nothing is this through not fully formed heroes, What great? What the you started level one! You make a lot of mistakes, you get your ass kicked. You nearly died evil once what does that mean? Like somebody set you up great twenty and then you critically fail. That has to be part of the narrative not like in a literal way, but that's the type of heroes were dealing with a conference like its Alec mission, Alright is everything perfectly that's not a deal, you know and also, I think, the other. Very challenging is that there's no there's, not one story. There is
even though that there are set campaigns, but the way that people play de India so personal, because cause. Every word is basically a band Ets and it's this the specific chemistry and dynamic of that your group. How that day, until story, how those players character, way how they relate to one another and so They're a near. You know there is many Dundee, ultimately dialects, as there are people who play and so How do you find one that represents? Everyone has been allowed people going to see that you're gonna go. Oh, that's! Not how I that's not how ambition as I play, and how do you make something that somehow and alienate the nurse who play, but also doesn't alienate the broader audience that they are going to need to support making a large budget particularly movie. I think this potential to do like marble. There were so many realms indulge dragons from spell jammer, dark, sun and Dragon Lance and forgotten, realms, etc. You already have these uniquely themed and texture things.
Like they marvel all their movies are characters before they team up. They all have very specific tones. Rules to their worlds. Dean dirty has that programmed into it is a hugely famous brand ever knows dungeon dragons, but you don't readily no character ip you're, not naming, wrist off the top of your love, those drifts stories of Crystal shot: natural energy is a great forgotten. Realms till you look at the dragon books you're a great place to start these could all be their own thing. There are very different: they have incredible wealth of things published the novels and the hundreds you know in these different realms if they could tap into now that they have what it at least be a starting point, inspiration. You know, I think they should almost fines. I dont want to see Jumanji indeed the Jumanji me. Let me very disposable like it doesn't have to be a game. More kids enter it like a game and you don't
the loaded up with all these stars and it made a lot of money was a fun movie. The new Jumanji by. I don't think, that's what you have to Shouldn't do. I know you're shouldn't drink loaded up with I don't you stand why studios look things up the stars, because it's easier to sell and market that way, but in the same way that they cast famous people in star wars, movies. It's like star. Wars is the star. You don't need Can I needed a whole time? It's like you know. I certain actors that I like a lot, but I can't see seeing them in just in star wars, garbage it wasn't Jack Nicholson as the emperor it was in Mcdermott right. He just didn't incredible before, says the emperor returned. The jet I like writing, go after was the biggest star and eighty three right. That philosophy has changed and I don't think it's ruined anything. They think they're adding value to stuff by having them. It doesn't hurt it in any way
they're, not Cassie, people with heavy stigmas of other franchise, knows what I do think it. I do think it hurts a little bit in the sense that it star wars is to be immersive and anything that takes you out, I already the universe, and so when you little no names. Firstly, as leagues of course, and so when you see a famous person, your media, like all that's a famous person in a crazy wig with a crazy- I like it, it just merely can oppose you Have it in a little bit like I don't need to see. Famous people plays characters. I want to see on note. I want it. I just want to be a nurse with the carrot You know rousing, you know like Al Guinness, but this keep watching hours, hadn't seen like you know, bridge The river people are gonna, go see star wars, a famous people are in it like the one time or you don't need to rely on that for international sales like people are gonna, go see, authoritarian, Dino Dundee. I hope that if they do do it, I mean the thing that they do. His huge has simply with Harry Potter right, like I looked at that new poster, and I still have yet to see the movie, I'm a huge area
what of it, but it's like who will rise up and like I don't know any these, these these people- and I was I couldn't even their faces because it was his wide vista I know who the characters even were, but another loaded up, lots of people and others It was nearly two factors in the Harry Potter movies, but not as the main, but it does need that right now, like is that that the best way to sell Always room rural movie. I wonder I wonder what the indeed if the thing to do is just select Gerda like Nicole role and be like aright Bat Mercer, we're gonna. Just give you a bunch of money. You guys just play a campaign. And we won't ere it anywhere and then we'll just build the movie off their hands a healthy way. To look at the story, like you, so many unexpected think of you haven't you play because then it organically report on an old and it then it would then it would sort of it would It would feel real and not like how do we script? This done.
And then dragons movie. It's like it would be a very natural it's like, but you ve, basically rolling the movie. You want the stewards and the people shepherding this to be people who honestly love and get it not the people that are just of the school as inopportune your honor. I was one of the play out I'll get you want the people that love it to be stepping into these roles. Our wars with all these movies, you other people that honestly thoroughly live and breathe it, or else it's not going to be what it needs to be listening to the forward in your book was Joe Magneto, who is a hero Joe Joe is stuck in hero. I love the fact the Joe smashing stereotypes about what it means to be a dungeon
agonies fan, I think, he's. I still think. Maybe he's a little scrawny dude in a mexican just open the chest opens up a little guy pushes yes, yes, yes, men and whack style. There's a there's, a there's, a tiny little alien inside a mean, because this programme is gonna glitch in these, like yeah yeah, yeah arms gonna blow off and who have to pick it up, and so it back on and so Gregoire is actually at astrophysicist, better Alatas tools like built, improves, built whose like who really keeps him. Yeah yeah yeah, so it heat he's been such powerful voice in this world as well and so be to we and on a leaving. So, like you know, embraced the community, and I think you know voices like that. Normalizes stuff and help people realize, like that. You know dandy, isn't just like a nerd thing that nerds for fun. I think it is. This, I think, is an essential part of
of social interaction that we're drum losing a dramatic re because it's just too convenient to be on the internet or play games on the internet you know on our phones are on. Our switches appears force whatever, and I think it is that I think it is absolutely vital that we get people. Kids, plan d degree, because I do think it teaches fundamental. Skills that we are losing problem. Solver convenience collaboration, putting reminding us that a figure sum imaginable in killing imagination, its that's what it is and you'll have to imagine anything if you're playing a fuckin kick ass game mean it has. You know an insane fix engine where you don't have to just like all right. That's open borders, you think that's infinite, but there is a finite wall built somewhere by a programmer and dungeon dragons is the final frontier for gaming, its infinite anything. You can imagine or say, or do you
There is an nothing's limit limit you from doing that. A joint work together, figure it out. That's what I think is why the game continue to endure because of that that the boldness of it, but like Joe, what's wonderful about what you're doing too is like each party's deaths six languages of clothing, which is I deem the street where peace, because what I want aware like worth the stuff that our work is everything that he wanted to want to do as a kid or young man he's gonna. Do it now I wanna go play I want to talk about. I wanna be malign for playing this game. I wanna go open. That is why I love like he got to global, is great talk chosen and be spokesperson, or an adult gonna be like a nerd who's going to do it. Oh, I appreciate that you, like these things very large mussulman, Jamaican any different than people do fantasy football crunching. Your numbers, like outrageous zones, oversold, shows really the my bodyguard of lake near them,
Nobody yeah he's like the my bodyguard of that this community or it's like no one's gonna go here. What a bucket you know, you're. Ok, He blinked, so others are I'll. Take that I mean this book is stunning, its absolute stunning. It's over four hundred pages. The artwork is incredible the history, is incredible: there's a lot and style Jane it right. Now it's fifty four percent off on Amazon people. I mean this again not to sound or cubey see, but what a fucking great a gift or what a great cause it's a gorgeous coffee will table and the cover is so it just it's. The cover feels like a d, The appeal that could enable like I like it. A glaring Elmore there's a Barnes unknowable addition, which is actually read instead of black bordering it, which is a true throw back to that old Red Box. I I had this idea to make this book and I said
is the book. It doesn't exist innovative up before, but I want to just do it because there is a huge gap missing in in the culture they made at length and why I reached out, and with this trend, steam, Michael Witwer, I was afraid of his book empire. Imaginations of violent Gary Guy gets annex Hey? Where do I start, or do you want to do this to me? He's like a fuck yeah? Let's do this week, John Peterson, who is the foremost expert on rpgs, and what specifically DD had a lot of his personal collection in terms of matters in correspondence and stop behind a scene. Things are in here and say: what were Michael's brother is. An actress aim. Was my star wars, gay master and he's a dude. You you're doing a book with my other honey. Fucking know my brother. I met on that. So we form this really balanced party and went and told this. This story gather in it's a real curated, almost yearbook time machine. There's so much. We couldn't put in it, but everything image. Every single spread we had to think about, and vat and really have a calmer nation about and it was rewritten after we wrote it just visual
and lay out. So we wanted to be a very comprehensive and definitive thing. Would you get your dear dungeon master retires weekly, telling crafting stories or dice anymore ways kids should get a map to, but This is something that nobody, nobody has you know so were really. Proud of it because it ends up being the book that we want. On all of our shelves personally and that's why I'm so happy holding my hand when its dynamite, This is what I wanted. It's an accomplishment nobody here, but you do not like. When I make a movie, I make a movie. Everyone says: how can I thought this? A two hundred people used to deal with and your hiring people its ego eagle management neutral to weed out by people and is the first time I've made something that's actually been marketed, properly
is. It says, dogs to drag its input. Could we just sell it as something else filmmaking is just a way to weed out bad people out of legged. Do it all I cast people, I don't just cast his aghast. You have to cast the people, aren't gonna contaminate the creative process. People are all about themselves like everyone. You hire a movie, they work with for two years, it's like of averting process, I'm done with working bad people over with good people who are gonna, go above and beyond and in this hour, publisher, ten speed, which is the vision, a penguin, random ass. We keep pushing. It was bigger, we're double the images they asked for, we our own money, into licensing? We say we want this to be as big as good as possible. We have one shot to do this and they got behind every step away and when they, when they marketed the butcher, the book and pushed it out. They literally got it intrinsically and supported. All ideas
wow imagined listening to the people who created something that note inside and they know the audience it is going to know they aren't you in the audience. Maybe learned after them and it was. It was refreshing to have that type of collaboration within our team and with the larger even the publisher and with wizards, who is our licensing who gave us access, troves are such nice people over there? The kind of people deserve breakers. In the game who care about the players and care about the community and in its nazi. He were so supportive of get off because there never like. How can we simply lloyd this there's? Nobody knew such a simple and all these new players. They don't know that maybe adventure playing right now was based on something earlier. You know watered it wasn't just invented for this dragon highest watered existed back and eighty seven one at Greenwood, published in other for realms and water deeps on his original maps of all these things have a history. You know you're playing, curse of struggle, that's been turn it in many times so as the character of straw and things like the tomb of horror
That was an early finds ready player one year. That's like the original each orange level one. I think it's hard to go wrong when the people running the thing are in the demographic are fans of the thing all fans in and that, because that Their such it just makes it holistically more authentic, engaging because they know is fans like what they would want to see, and it's just much better than you know, then corporate think yeah. Well, It's something that you learned from this process that blue your and lake. Was there anything that you uncovered where you were like holy shit? I never knew. I always wanted to know that this is It's a little store is now which were so fast. I think one of the most important things was looking back at the early artists and trying to do justice to them and tell the story. There's never told, because there are these guys like Elmore uneasily when the game exploded, big
wait, seventies early, they caught up the caliph. Do evolution the early artist that constructed the visual language of the game, the cookie korean Tracy lashing. We to publish our special edition, the original of divorce from nineteen. Seventy five- it was bladed origins one and it was. It was a torment you'd go with fifteen people and you sit round a table near ran for tables and its and everybody into this. This this murder and you'd see who survived. It was the goal of the dungeon too, of course, was to kill you and we published. Original version which predates the one they published in Eighteen- seventy, by three years and it's got the original art in there that every oh panel, you see in that book is redrawn. An eighteen, seventy eight, but it's almost exactly like what came out of this. This teenagers ed which carry TAT Missis Hamley this in two weeks go draw this quick, any this whole module, and that was really the first
energized adventure he had. So you had these these these drawings underpinning periods at four different table, so it could be standardized and unbroken experienced the same thing and also of the the the great kingdom which was this universe, that Dave and Gary had before The game was ready to be published. They would pass back and forth o this castle was seized. These people died and market on their map, and it was a map that coexisted like like a video games now or on you on these servers everyone's like part of that same map, but they were doing, is virtually you'd, be a pen power meeting up a convention that denoted on a map, and that became the for shared universe. I think that's also great seeing what these guys conceived and how they tried this idea we take for granted now with something that they were trying to achieve with very limited tool. Yeah. I mean this game is so much the foundation of so many different disciplines of creativity. Ideas of experience
six lumbering, often character back stories. It's all we take for granted, also storytelling learning how to story tell again learning how to play together learning the community learning how to create think creatively, but it learning how to improvise. But also you know if you want to paint character, if you want to paint figurines that's a whole other thing? If you want to learn how to draw you wanna, do you know how many ways Israel is that you're into cartographer ass? Well, my got absolutely there so many different ways. It really is the lodging of so many different, concentrating huge thing now, and it will of course, of course, so did you ever meet Jerry nine M academic year? I've got to meet his son Luke has tremendous. Guy is his kind of with the the legacy Gary, do you always? I always play wizards magic user. There are well, I love was, there might not be hauled sorcerers the coast, it's coming
I got more locks and, alas, armed with its areas of the coasts, wizards misery, eminent magic user. I mean I I am I to me. I don't like to I don't like to get in. Beat the shit out of things are not stuff down. I dont enough. I I love this sort of creed. I loved the creative spell casting problem solving. Its sessions differently, not just using your arrow to do one thing: what spells am I? What spells can I used creatively solve this problem? Where you really, I think, have think a high level. It's like! Oh, can I do something that creates this that robs this thing about action into the social situation, change a battlefield. They really are. How can you enhance your your compatriots, there are in this. They have more spells than anybody by far there's summonses versatility to them really challenges you as the player, I think, to me
the most of it I mean, are all welcome. Those are just the one that's that obsolete. I think another stalker ranger right now, which I'd love and it's totally different and am also playing a half Org Zella Barbarian in the game with Joe and I've never play front liners smashed things, but it is also very cool. What alive do you, like. Normally neutral, good, chaotic good. I dont really weight into games trying to play evil characters right. I'm might do things that are off the track and then grapple with IE The alignment ramifications, but I dont go into it. Trying to be evil. I play with a kid growing up in all, he would do. Is try, wait till you had your character like fire once a murderer sides with Angola, Gaelic Baltimore online. Be these these players, which Roma around murder people see
shit and there's nothing worse than I just I just don't like that's. I played a lot, a lawful good characters and I was growing up and now I'm sort of sea like why that's the kind of boring, because you're so I too rules like you have to you really do to follow rules, but even the case a good has like chaotic goods has renewal to it. Though because they are you really being chaotic here or you start to be linear your approach it and that's that something right, lawful, lawful, good, definitely has someone, almost like written laws that you have to you know at here too. I should try some lawful your hand, it might just be fun. Just yeah yeah I just wanna play paladins enhance played about and in many many years so finally you know. Do we have some cause? You know. Listen, I don't want people to think that we were just that we're crappy on fanned among we weren't known where we earlier in the sense of loss of what it hears toxicity out there I won.
I wanna be positive about it and I want to try to figure out a way to be proactive about it. You know it's just it's not that you have opinions. It's really just the way that you happy here are you know, are you? Are you chaotic evil in expressing your opinions, because you just want everything to burn for the sake of burning and so like what are some positive messages for phantom that we can focus on nor ways that we can be better fans. I was a dont neuter your opinions, but there's no need to. He had to leave them. I presume you, two other peace no needs also entrenched in. Let us think of you can you can not like the same thing, but you could still coexist and be friends have different opinions politically. On about opera after a gamer a movie ends. You could still coexist. You only, there has to be there's a core level civil discourse. I think that's, that's all. I think the EU should have your opinions. You should express your opinions, but there's a way
to do that which also isn't destructive. But I also think that you know, with the with the exception of you, know some some very ino, obvious opinions, but for most opinions I feel like the the it's great about them. Is that it's not just these are my opinions get the fuck off my property. It's like. I have this opinion you of this opinion. How can we create some sort of a kind three, that's greater than the sum of the parts of us and get to say more deeper, get somewhere deeper understand each other. Not a surly have to agree with everything, but at least you know again, I think that's community, I dont think community. Is everyone agreeing with everything that you say immunity is so right is its diversity of opinion in diversity of of of every you know what in co exist that coexisting, because that diversity? makes us greater as a whole, then just living in this little call the sack where yes, I'm gonna. Greece with Europe, where the internet has convinced us that we, you know
we can go down, rabbit holes that basically create these confirmation by We don't ever have to go outside the thing we believe in very limiting because there is no growth in that and an end when them something growing its dying, so you are killing yourself slip away by not by not You know I'm exaggerating, but by not, you know, explore their opinions or other points of view or trying to understand or trying to create. You know it's like in and this again is: why think, something the India on poor, because it forces people to come together what they choose to come together to you know, too, of in a different text grants to create. You know a little many community in that, I think is. Ultimately, you know if, if, if our culture couldn't essentially if we could play culture things the way we
did a campaign of dna. You know when you know that was our authority was a microcosm of that we wanted to two would have been very different of each of us to read this individually, but we were to hear each other out commander from different perspectives, incorporate this perspectives and then and a shared synonymous voice. We are very different point of view on this art and what should be in the bunker which can be by it was such a civil and organic and beautiful process that meet that's. What made the book for Special- and I m I, with with wood, online community, its it's. The kind of thing like I've seen earlier. Take you treat the stranger greater than an equal and tear it out idle, my twitter feed. If I look at it or Facebook, I don't agree with ninety percent of what people post on it. But I do like hearing the difference of opinion and I do like having conversations about it privately,
I love and people post my facebook. I care what you think about this in this I loved her eurostar I'll talk, I'll do what I want to see the way you saw the movie. I wanna hear the way you experienced it without going like my ways right you're. All I love that conversation. I wanna hear someone that sought so different, like I'd interpret that at all- and I think that's faster than you can take something that's been around for forty seven years and experience it ways and those are so foundational and. And almost religious to people and You have all these different ways to to look at it, but that's not unhealthy, but there's a way to go about that conversation. I think that we should all strive for before you go head, send or tweet Miss W Well, I think it's all. I think it's important to before you hit send we were so accustomed to just doing. An emotionally yeah is, is, is sort of take a minute, read it later, and really ask yourself a tough question. Like is this construct?
Is this moving closer to something good or is this just destructive? If it's just for my ego and sometimes he's. Gonna postwar you go and ass. Much like the arabic proverb is, it is, it kind is a true is unnecessary. Check all those boxes before I had sandal avatars, there's emails and like that, can respond right now. Much better wait. Ten minutes to now is gonna wait till tomorrow morning, and also am I missing something the translation like were Taking its shrunk down two hundred and forty characters and then expanded like with water and then move was too Do they really mean that, as is being running it throwing out your baggage and we want to move. We wanna hear those things we want to be triggered by this thanks to step back from it look at what's really being said and then take a b and right right, thoughtfully, we're pulling in all the frog. Yes on the dinosaur data like we're. Getting we're getting like a brook, no text
one form of communication, but it's not the whole form of communication, so we're filling in all of the gaps. There's no tat body language, nothing, I think, no going on text. We don't know this person, there's no nuance, there's no! No! What they just experience it on the way you just experienced might read in text after used up your tone, you react only different, then if you are just Chillun on a beach. So let's I guess in summary: let's a game about dragons and monstrous to learn how to be more human amen, Thank you. So much for being your guile, there was a pleasure and remedies are yellow. I well that is around and sort of we send it back the Lydia's around the corner and so on she's gonna want to give you heard before you leave awesome. Thank you so much round me, and keep playing Dundee. Keep watching wars are things we love so. I'm on a rule to see if this podcast went jail I just have a standard de twenty. That enough should I should I rolled perfect. Ok,
Do I think that saved no modifiers so do? Is there a saving girl like what's throw that aid to make above, like a twelve or something or Ernie, eloquently silver ten over a ten year? Ok, let's see here. We go mother, Fucker rolled a nine. But I want to take a rural, wow, yes, but you thought it was be a nine, but really we navigated out of that situation in Japan and I'm so excited and proud of you for this border, I'm so glad you like it gathers Ferdinand. Women's ever played the add the ads thinking back to the moment smell of the black. As you have just said,
to the eighty ten t, bird customer, nine, eighty, nine with Kyle Newman and now it's time for some word, salad rap and I I just loved the conversation with him about phantom and positivity and being able to be honest without destroying. But I think it's a much there's a much larger conversation about about doing real world things. You know it so easy to be true. Are in our digital bubbles. You know I mean it's. There's enough brain stimulation there to trick. You seem to think that we're connecting with people are accomplishing stuff and enter into a degree we are, but we are involved in two half what baltic speaker, insofar as we have to.
Mean. I don't have to do anything. You don't want to do, but I am recommending as to you, that's look into doing real world things. Listen I get it you I get lazy at night when I get home, my wife and I we go off in our days and and do whatever we do. We do our work stuff and then it feels fucking great to be imposed on us by like six o clock and knowing that the rest of the night is open, we're going to eat dinner and maybe just get in bed. You know we have a tv that comes up out of this on a standard like rises up and it just as at the foot of our bed, and it's so easy. To be in better bet, he's very comfortable. The cat curls up. We can have liked the Nintendo switch there and put on you know like the magician, are some show that we like to watch and there is very little motivation to
leave, not only the house but our bed so last night Lydia they had a friend who was in a play call day was a series of short seems called ten more and is of the Skylight Theatre on Vermont, in LOS Angeles, and you I don't It would have been easy to just say. Like all you know, I'm tired and I feel like going. You know I had a long day working or whatever, but it was important to lead. There we go, and so I went and I'm so glad that we did. I saw so many amazing actor doing so many wonderful scenes and they're just isn't anything like the experience, of doing real world thinks it. So it is literally communal. I mean it's funny that we talk about among communities and they are communities to a degree, but that, but it's not like I'm like a real world community has just so much richer. Like I don't know,
for me. I can tell the difference that I am now so much more appreciating connecting with things in real life doesn't make any sense. Do I sound like a lunatic, but it's so easy for your brain, to talk you out of step, because your brain just wants you to become well in any given moment, and so I will tell you to do things that are necessarily good for you, but because they feel comfortable in the moment, but seek some discomfort cause. That's where the that's where some of the best stuff is and you have the kind of ignore your brain and I'm so glad. I did because my brain said
stay at home. You need to go and Lydia would have been fine if it's at arm really tired and I feel it going, she would set. Ok, that's fine or I'll. Just go myself and I am so glad I. When we had a wonderful day night, we had some fun great inspiring stopped to talk about. Afterwards we talked about the scenes. We talked about the actors, the the performances were so great, and you know it was just a really fun experience. I guess that's what it is. You know you can have, maybe maybe
Maybe maybe I'm saying something without thinking about it, so maybe this won't be true, but but just try to go with me a little bit out on a limb here. You have interactions on line, but you have experiences in the real world and I'm not a hundred percent sure that the digital interactions that we have fully count as experiences experiences that shape us experiences that tie us to other people, experiences that expand our horizons experiences by the way the online we live in a confirmation by his bubble. We seek out things. We already believe the internet delivers a stuff we already think will like, but the real world gives us here.
Turning to branch out and explore and grow and and and have a more holistic human experience, and so it seems so silly. I mean this. We feel like we're in the fuckin Jackson's right now. You know we're, unlike step away from your button, pushing you know that I have the. It seems like such an obvious thing. You go go inside, gets and vitamin d get some son go, have an experience, go talk to people in the real world. Go go to show up, you know, even if its of go to free shells, whatever you can their free shows in your area that you can go to go to things, you wouldn't think you would normally want too sperience. Just have the experience to expand your horizons. You know like that's why people travel so become a traveller in your own town in your own community. We really do have to it have to work up the the muster too
be travellers in our own communities, because it so easy to just stay to stay at home in our digital bubbles. So I mean the projected you hard, but I see it is something that I am also working on, and so I say this to you as I say it out loud to myself, that I appreciate the experience that I had last night. I love and appreciate my wife's so much and we came away from it going factor. We do stuff like this. More often you know just have experiences so gone and have your own experiences universe, just like once a week just stretch a little bit and go to something that maybe your brain initially is like cash. I turn off. That sounds like something I'd want to do. Try it. You know what, if you don't like it, then you'll still have stuff to learn from it. You know like it
You always have to love everything you do to gain to gain knowledge and wisdom in experience from someone is just the halving of the experiences in a worrying about whether you like something or not, is so goal oriented and again you know like the older I get the more. I realize it's about being process oriented and experience oriented, because that's that's where the grove happens not so much in the attainment of the goal, whether or not to show was good or something was bad. Like that's, that's a momentary thing. That's a fleeting thing, it's intangible, but the growth is the process so embraced the process embrace real world experiences and embrace the fact that I appreciate you. Thank you so much for listen, the world's words Alan Wrap in the EP, so ninety nine called Newman and have delightful week. All right, I can t seen incomplete.
Transcript generated on 2020-05-17.