Welcome to the eighty twenty Pakistan, where one thousand five hey. If you came to a wise guises, pass, we can and SALT Lake City or zany as the previous week in Nashville has one say, thinks the shows have been so much fun cause I've been nibbling around with a guitar on stage which the idea terrifies me, which is one of the reasons why I wanted to do it and it's been really fun. I've been doing some music in the set out of you. Don't know that I do. That is through that with my my buddy, MIKE firm and and and a kind of wanted to see, if I could, but here is played all the instruments, because he is a master at everything musical and I am not trying to get from trying to get good at it. But it's been really and sobbing mess around with songs on stage and then also just being able to come out in them in and say hi to people after chosen in give hugs and sign, perhaps and stuff has been been really fun, so you know now again never hesitate to ask to take a piss,

ask me to sign something: I don't care. If it's I'm not I'll sign, anything doesn't even have to be anything. I'm involved with a desire to do it, and- and I appreciate you and thank you so much for coming out in the next shows- are in in late July, albeit the Edison Improv, just that sets out a Dallas and then the following month in Rally North Carolina, so that information will be at Idee ten t dot come along with some idea. Ten t shirts grab assured support the podcast in

and start putting some other fun pop culture stuff on there really will soon. But now, let's talk about you, the idea, ten t listener and the court board events at eighty, twenty not come like just in who writes I'm finally going through with going to school for game design. Currently, I'm working with a small team of people trying to make a game for those who struggle with issues such as depression, angered, this morphia, etc. I really want to be able to make a game to help those to cope with whatever they may be struggling with and help others understand those who do struggle with stuff, like that, I'm currently trying my best to get the ball rolling on this project. Some more of anyone's feeling generous, you can find me twitch twitch, basically they use name- is phantom flyer. Oh nine! Any tips donations will help me in my team. Thank you. Just in christian rights, I wanna write into promote something cool, so my friends are doing their dinner pod cast where they played dungeons and dragons,

premises from famous movies and recreate from biplane dean defy be it's fun thing that they are excited about. I want to let you know, maybe you can let you listen is no absolutely Kristen, I'm so glad you're sharing. This is a great idea. It's called reboots into eggins and you could find it wherever you listen upon gas. That sounds fantastic. So, thanks to all who send in against, if again events it, I d, ten t die. This episode is Mark Manson, who wrote an amazing book, called the subtle art of not giving a fact which has so many people have read so many people Oh, I see recommend online and a lot of a self help websites in some bread. It's it's by I've, read it I've recommended to the people they recommended it back to me. It's just a really mean it. It's not adjusted gimmicky title. It is a very thorough and useful book

which sort of lays out. You know where we talk a lot about in the past, but you know where it is of value to place you're, giving effectiveness and when you just should let things up up up and what we have to accept about. You know things in life, and so it just it's a phenomenal book and I was connected to him through my friend- ran holiday, who wrote the obstacles the way

a bunch of other books that you should also read and Mark has a new book called everything is fucked a book about hope and I had never met mark before we had just had some email exchanges and he was phenomenal. He doesn't come off like a guru and he doesn't want to be a grew he's. A guy who has lived life, made mistakes written about it and is really kind of practical philosopher, I guess, is the best way to describe what I think that it is he does and so open and so so great. So if you're a fan of his work, then I think you will really enjoy this pod cask as we go deep on a lot of things and then, if you are not, then by all means, give it a chance and then go get his books. Subtle are not giving a fuck and now is available. Now everything is fucked, a book about, hope

we recorded this months ago, but the book didn't come out until a few weeks ago, so I held it until two just to make sure the book was available. So that's why it there's a little bit of a time delay in the release of the package. So there you go thanks for listening to episode, number one thousand, five with mark manner. Let's roll the thing

yeah yeah. This is the passage I thought was really find that I wanted to reverence so either the thing there's messed up about this galley about my guys as explained to the galleys, are like beta tests, the out of of books, the font changes chapter three inch up there

and is one two and five through nine or whatever its surf, and you know just as a fun exercise. You should just have the font be different in every section of the book for not really for a reason to just as a social experiments see what reason people came under that. Could they would think that you did that for a reason, yeah right, it's funny took as they complain to them and their like louvois. You know we're gonna like page and ate the hope. Nothing, I don't know. There's a five or the like. Are you this fucking in a frame? I know how much money you spent on this book, like you really want to put out a book, would like two chapters of a different form read the words, but it's weird you thinking like stay likes, work lay one day, it'll be fun

she'll get will be some sort of weird like do you want this to be? Are you sure you wanted to be an odd number of bathers? Why are you focusing on that day? I remember when I, when I did my book years ago, was really fun but when they had a great editor and they were really nice, but when it came time to promote the book, you know, I guess I thought- Do this whole crazy at a meeting with them in their like? So basically there like so who do you know why I started up pretty much much? Well, that's the thing! Is it you, you like at every stage, any entertainment business. You think you're gonna get caught in this way where the whole business is just going to sweep you success, land what you realize is like you, so to do now the work never stops network. Never stop that. It's funny, because this time as this time around, I can't know better like I know not to expect any

and also I know that, like I have a bunch of connections- and I know that part cast her. What move book like podcasting, you two generals, that's what moves books lighted showing up in you know the early or whatever getting mentioned on news programme for thirty seconds, and they ask one question that you give like a five word answer. Yet nobody buys books that nobody buys yeah. I was there was a weird kind of magic that I realize You know almost immediately nine years ago, when issuing a broadcast was that you could do a spot on a late night. Talk show, but the podcast audience was just So much more it such an intimate it. People have to go out of their way to engage with it and they form a very personal bond with it, as we all do the progress, and so it's such a hyper, targeted audience of people that you would probably hang out with, because they, if they identify with

and when you're doing a talk, show our new sure, whatever it's just like it's a scatter shot like you, might get a small percentage of, and then those people that would actually, by the thing it's I hate doing television, I love podcast Gesine, go deep evenly deep dive into a topic. People stick with you, like, I hate doing television, because if I start to give, if I give an answer and as soon as I get past like two sentences, you can just see everybody's eyes, glaze over governor, like Radiance I really must up like wrap it up. Dude rapid, like MIKE, barely get like twenty words out I know, but you and I also wonder if you're painted into a corner little bit, just because of the title of the book of I am familiar with the actual substance of the book. The image so are not given a programme who is looking at you know. Well, it's we were, then you know it's not, and they re probably just kind of look at. It is a very goofy me like that,

is a me. I love that act and a lot of people, but if you don't read it, you would probably have a slightly different impression, on the time have slowly? I was actually. I was talking to to a friend just earlier today about this, how it's crazy out that books to date is sold. Seven, a half the eight million cars is fifty eight fleets that fish, That's really are to do that bit dug in the publishing world. Those are like James Cameron numbers eagerly. They usually did in today's yeah yeah and I've got no major mainstream press. I've like I've never been profile in a major paper. I've never been among, unlike a talk show, no big radio shows they don't touch me and I think it's because war, a the F word and be they look at their like two gimmick now and it's some issues it strange, you know, like part of me, there's a little piece of me. It's, like you know,

You guys pay attention to me, but I'm here but there, an all stairs all lotta me to just. Can it's funny like ages, it to show how the media escape is shifting. So much like, like the fact that this can even happen without you know, being in the New York Times or whatever is like it's very telling about how we the amount of power that we give mainstream media in terms affecting engagement or actual chores sales, because you know you might look at the surface said Oh it's like a lot. If he were treating about this and all these new sites are ready, this one thing, but if you were really to deep dive, it's like is it, everyone, or is it just like a few thousand people a year I and others who doesn't people they really going to engage with that thing, and so it I think it does she

and the idea of what we think is popular and also how we ended. I think it's actually, what you were saying seems to thematic. We sort of funds We'll get into this book, were you, like. I mean I've sold seven or eight million copies, which, by the way, is insane ridiculous snl regarding that's like, but I'm not you know, there's a signal. The dissatisfaction ride like those of still like the feeling little guy who is like the fighting to be led into the party. You know it's a strange world right now to really strange world and there might be people that you'd see on a talk, show like an author or something you go in disguise probably hasn't sold seven or eight million copies of doubt, work yeah, I mean it in its it. Funny I I got. I got invited to a very major conference recently and, It was like a last minute thing. They had somebody drop out, and so they contacted me,

and- and I was like- ok cool great- how much you pain and there like? Oh nothing, we thought you just want to come down and, unlike Excuse me, but I was insulted always like. Are you really really really know what the factory yeah well, you know the conference is already book than we ve already like got all the accounts and also say we anybody no, it's the repaying other people, but not yet n n n. They were like well it's great exposure and, unlike what planet have you been? The exposure guard is one that a lot of a lot about. What's been averted, Williamsburg, but on what it says on the cover my book three million copies hopeful like I don't need exposure. Do it yeah yeah, it's funny. It's just there's this disconnect, I feel like theirs, is there's an internet world that is largely driven by like podcast Youtube errors in some conventional media

and then there is this, then there's the old school mainstream world. Then there's just like up like I've invisible wall between the two or somethin right. Now, it's it's really for the odd yeah, because there are like you know, they're: U tubers! With thirty million subscriber, but if you ask any written that which, as you know about ten percent little little less ten percent of the population of this country, but if they would knock door to door and said, have you heard of this person if this person, unless they had kids, they probably like now? that is so like the idea of awareness and how our culture is become negrofied and how you can have an audience, but that's not, and then some people seem to have that kind of grandeur. Hence, but it doesn't necessarily, you see a comedy too, like they're, really famous people.

But it does mean they're gonna sell tickets if they go perform in a comedy venue. So it's like the I dont know what the metric is or how to figure it out. But it's not what on the surface, it would appear to be a most of the time, yeah for sure and invest heavily changed over the last like ten twenty years it used to be just like your times tonight show you know boom boom boom, like that's what you are shooting for young and now it's you. I had an honest conversation with my publicists alike. Do even want a New York Times spot liking it out, like Dave Dave. Cannot they ve shot on some people recently and and it's like do we want to take that risk like do we need them in all its like? I probably get a lot more out of sit near talking to you that I would be nigh lighted near a time so, but there's a lot of there's a lot of what so difficult when you work in a creative field is,

it doesnt have that sort of linear factory like oh. We invented a thing and we made it we manufacture admits. Then we saw more and more and then you know it's like we're cut are we looking for some kind of metric to hold on to to know like? Are we doing well, the bottom line is: are we doing well yeah and that's really tough to know, especially when you factor of the ego pardon. Like we have these ideas about what doing rail is and but they may have happy true Vienna. Also it's like I understand it. But I honestly it's really to know. I think we're doing. We saw that list. Is I mean it's not as well? I don't know where yeah, I really don't know, but Beverly coming from a blogging background to cause blogs, I think I'm pretty much been decimated. Yes pipes. Media absolute. So do you think some of that has to do with like

it's one of them. Blogger is, I don't know, I guess he's got his audience like there's. Definitely some of that. There is definitely like I've actually talk to those who Ryan Holiday insured. Yes, yes, whose great, and so he and I have actually talked in private before about how we feel like there is aid. Like blogger internet kid bias. You know in a lot from a lot of these. Establish media places and yeah. I definitely think there is you know it's like. I didn't go to journalism school. I'm have been published in a magazine or newspaper before. And for whatever reason I think, there's you know that count against me and what cases, but again, seven and a half a million having this year in its when you're writing when you're writing this your books. Do you are you absorbing the stuff, for you

life. At the same time, are you as you're, seeing it you're going? Oh yeah, that's right. I gotta remember to do this. Yes, what I tell people is writing for me. It's it's like my own, very public form of therapy. I write things, because I get this question all the time they're like like our who, the fuck

you'd like tell me how to live my life or what makes me happy or what I am like I'd look I'd. I wanted the spell the whole self help. Guru writing. You know out front. I don't write this stuff because I have the answers. I write this stuff because I have the same problems in by writing about it. It helps me think through it and process, it myself sure, and then I tried to just presented in such a way that it can help other people as well. So yeah I mean it's. Everything in this book is shit that I've been going through the last four years and struggling with and trying to figure out, and so he now hopefully other people get something here, but that, but I think that such a great place to come from because rather

being preached at it. Like you know, our friends, are you know it with with exceptions, I'm sure some people have friends who are experts, but most of our friends are not experts yet boat, but when you have a problem, you call your friend and new relate to them and they relate their experiences back to you, and so I think, from that point of view, its there's a much kind of friendly or approach to your work because it doesn't feel like you're being preached, add yet does sort of feel like don't just talking to you in saying, like a shit suck sometimes- and if I get in those expected- and you know rather than someone who you know, I think people can become a little defensive when their being preached Appiano, one really likes to be told what did you're telling people what to do now. You're, just saying this is you did this is what I have observed. Is what I feel you know like in our doubts and I think, that's different, then

reading. I guru are an expert who seems to have everything figured out. Proprietors really is and- and I think that familiarity is sort of what what white communicate so well to Pierre. I think and, like you said, when you preach at people, they d they get defensive or they put you on a pedestal. Sure, and I in many ways, that's even worse. And because it is like a people, start putting me on a pedestal, then I have to like live up to Expec. I've like distressed about shit then I don't care about. You know like. I don't want to be on everybody's bet. It's not like. I have been a problem dealing my own shit. I dont need people like you know hanging on my every word it. So it's, though, with the way I conceptualize it is, is I'm not here to give answers, I'm here to ask good questions and help people ask questions of themselves right because what you know

Your book has been recommended to the last book and recommend it to me. I've recommended it to a lot of people and I always kind of when I picture the people I go out. Are not giving a fucking God it's really funny and it doesn't it. The book doesn't say you should never give a shit about any yes, you know like it's more that things are going to happen in our lives here that you can't control its. You know that surrounds fundamentally stoic. There are things that you can't control you. If, as long as you expect that pain, it makes it a little bit easier to kind of navigate the shit swap that We go through sometimes like all. While you know the really is there really is a depth to it that I think you know, for anyone whose just looking for some thing, even if it's not specifically that I just think it makes you like you said, ask a lot of good question there, and it is it's funny. You know back when I was doing press for subtle art. I could always tell like who had had had read past

for one guy has hit the first question on their mouth would be like. So why should we give a fuck about? You really did not go far enough energy saving on page like twelve, it says you know the opposite, so yeah it's been interesting. It's been a little bit that hole where would you call it like that? construction, the whole not give a fuck construction. I think it's it's done wonders for in people and in getting them interested like it's just such a fun concept in title but yeah its cause. The lotta misunderstand like I just I mean even people read the whole book like email me, and I quote what really angry at my dad like. How do I stop giving a fuck em like it,

dad you shouldn't you, don't exactly that! You should give a fuck about the evident, but I think that there is also the idea of you know the more something scales up the wider. The audience can reach the numbers so like you know. If two percent of the people hate you that numbers gonna seem if goods can be if you have ten times as many people, and so it's just everything goes up. The good stuff goes up. The bad stuff goes up. It just all goes up so you're country just dealing with all of it, and it is that kind of cause. You know I picked out. I pulled out a chapter, a judge. It really just a paragraph to read and it's in a chap, recalled how to start your own religion. And its talking about you talking about

satirical by us not literally manages it's sort of talking about like pain, no matter how much pain there's always a joint global pain around the corner, no matter, why? No matter how much pain you eradicate, and anyone who tells you that they can fully eradicate your pain, is prey lying to you. But I really like this paragraph you said, but seriously One really could solve your problem. They go out of business by next Tuesday or get voted out of office next week. Leaders need their followers to be perpetually dissatisfied, it's good for the leadership business. If everything is perfect, great. There be no reason to follow anybody, know religion would ever make you feel blissful and peaceful all the time no country will over completely feel fair and safe, no political class It will solve everyone's problems all the time. True equality can never be achieved. Someone somewhere will always be screwed over true freedom doesn't really exists because we must all sacrifice out some autonomy for stability. No one, when or how much you love them where they love, you will ever absolved that internal guilt, you feel simply for existing. It's all fucked everything its work

has been and always will be- there are no solutions, only stop gap measures, only incremental improvements, only slightly better forms of than others, and it's time we stopped running from that and instead embrace which is such a right, but I mean there's so much density that paragraph is through a party that over it, but it is because I you know when I get over two thousand three I'd sort of became addicted to self help, stop yet ends What I didn't realize until many years into my sobriety itself have journey is that we are obsessed, as you say, in this chapter particular with successfully getting things getting car, getting a house or whatever, and still dissatisfied? But

Isn't a lot of stuff that teaches us how to be successful. They teach you how to get things. Yes, but how do you be successful? How do you maintain success? How do you- not go crazy. How do you not fuck it up? That's I think, where self help should go and it almost just feels like most of its like We got you that boat, what the fuck! Do you, wise guy? That's! Never that didn't fix the Bilbil all now what happens yeah. I I think it's in. I think what you just said on a very broad level, is kind of what

happening to society at large. Right now. You know it's early in the in the book. I talk about like the paradox of progress, of how, materially everything is. The best its ever been in world history were living longer were safer. Raturan diseases were their fewer wars, less violence, people more educated like it just goes. The list is staggering. I mean Steven Pinker written like thousand page books just on how much better everything is has become

right. Yeah there's is like psychological and emotional malaise in our cultures. In of depression, anxiety, suicide, drug overdose is like all these things are on the rise and, and you just get on twitter- and you just seems like everybody's fuckin freaking out all the time over everything and that our room, yeah, and so I feel like we're almost as a culture were, were, were almost victims of our own success like its. We ve got the bow and we said we still off. We don't feel fixed right, and so there's is justice. Panicky, like oh, my god. What now like something's wrong, I know something's wrong in like just reaching grabbing for anything we can find, and so that's the fee.

In that I wanted to investigate in this book essentially is it's kind of its kind of an extension of subtle, like subtler was very individual focused. It was like internal focus in a what are your values how're, you measuring success for yourself. How are you defining who you want This is more like ok. What about when you apply these principles, kind of society wide within a whole population and in how do these things effect culture, and how do these powders say a certain culture with a definition of success, help or hurt the individuals with that population yeah yeah. I often think to the to the the prophetic promptly prophetic work known as the matrix agent Smith is telling Morpheus our region.

Design for your world was a utopia yeah and you couldn't handle it. It did the it crashed. It failed because you thrive. You know, like youth, you thrive on chaos So? What is that about our natures that you think thrives on this chaos? Do you think it's a survival thing of having to constantly tear down and build backup constantly tear down? Is it just in over active, outdated survival mechanism that we are never satisfied. I think it's it's a basic evolutionary function. I mean it's. If you're a satisfying creature, isn't Go builder, innovate or create something new. It's it's! The slightly dissatisfied slightly paranoid creature. That's going to do the most work to advance its own interests, and so I think in its. You know it later on in the book. I lay out a lot of cut of the psychological evidence and in research that shows that we are very much better

LT to need a certain amount of stress in pain to to optimize our? Well being you now. I call it think in one of the footnotes. I call it like a goldilocks level of pain like it. Timber, too much pain we begun traumatized than in and suffer all sorts of like debilitating stuff. If we have too little pain we like an existential crisis, unwilling, oh my god, I have all these boats what the fuck do. I do with my made itself destructive. Yes, so there's like a goldilocks apple of pain of light, enough stress in your life that you feel like you can manage it and overcome. It is what infuses us with a sense of meaning and purpose, and I think in many ways a lotta like what are you know the technology and in light of that, one of the innovations that are, I guess culture has been driving towards is is taking us too far on

one side of the scale of like not enough, like not a healthy amount of stress and painted our lives right. Things are too easy to comfort, and so we need to find like spilled milk to get upset about right, rewrites or Cree were busy building the fight. Air to then go fire yeah, that's out get burned and they go. There's another one like never just being able to go yeah I mean it's a high, its that's. That's fucking skill set to learn how to not. You know win in the absence of fires, bill fires yet put out absolutely and- and I think I think what you know- What win the real solution? I don't think there's ever a solution like we're. We're just not gonna see fires. I think what we have to do so

stand, are you know our minds and find useful fires that to create in? Oh, it's like if, if you're, if, if you're psychological make up, is such that you are going to see problems, no matter how good in comfortable reality check yeah. Then you might as well choose good problems defy you, don't you might go out searching for good problems this all. So you know that requires that kind of an active engaging with the world then and deciding like choosing what socks. Choosing your struggle is, how I put it in some art, but it's it's. Shoot. Choosing your values, though in a way, yeah won't because whatever you only value what you shrug for right in our so it's like. If you know Santa Claus just drops a boat out of the sky, I mean you'll be happy for a minute, but ultimately it's gonna feel a little bit meaningless. Like mob,

that's an extreme example, but you're. Basically talking about lottery, winners, yeah, well, yeah, I'd feel it feels meaning this or, if you imagine, just like a spoiled brat in Alaska, Acuity, a trust fund, kid who she is given. Everything entire life. He has no appreciation, for anything is no appreciation for like where it came from the work that way and there's no meaning or value to it. Like you said he become self destructive. Everything is just chasing highs it's only when you, like your ass for years and years and years and try to build something that you are able to act like the rewards actually become meaningful right in, like a like. The boat actually mean something to you, because it's like shit, I woke up at five, a m for twenty years. Is to get that thing. It's a symbol. Love yet is a symbol of war.

It's a symbol of the struggle at the symbol of overcoming the strong yeah, and I guess I guess that is important. But still you know if just having things were the key to happiness, then in a lot of people who- money would be thrilled all the time, and I mean not. You know, but a lot of them. I feel like. Maybe I'm making a bridge in relation, but a lot of them are maybe can anti american of you know like need to find a cause or get so insane about our cause, because they just need to feel you know like. I guess we just all need to feel worth. It is how many conflicting things in our soul like we need to feel significance, we need to feel work, but we also need to shake shut up and we need to feel pan and and in what way, I don't know yet when I think this is an issue

crazy when I actually won the craziest things I came across my research for this book was. There was a study that looked at suicide rates even down to like the zip code, dance at an individual neighbourhoods and they found that in major. U S, cities zip code with high, like the suicide rate, was correlated with the average net worth of people in each zip code. So it's like now, it's you can almost predicts what the suicide rates gonna be in each city. Based on how rich the neighbourhood is right in it. I feel because I'm sure you probably subscribe to date, stoic email website there. But it's he had life you talk about that sometimes, but you know with the differences between, like you know, and again Epictetus in Marcus Aurelius. You know like one of them was, no ruler and had a lot of stuff? Another one was just a rich guy. Another one didn't want to have anything and

answer is they were all right, yeah. It's just beak because they were, you know like they were better I'd, been theory. The better at not policing value on external things over their own sort of internal self worth, and we are non, stop chasing meaning in the external world to try to make ourselves feel better in time and time again, it's like how many times since that shit not have to work with bucking. Listen to it, and I don't know, I don't know what the answer is. I mean I don't like lever is like I said, and you know that the part you read like we're. Never gonna stop looking so you might is fought, might as well fine places the look for it that are health like healthier, socially constructive in you know, don't hurt other people, but

that the luxury thing I think are issued on the reason you see that suicide discrepancy is, I think you know the more luxury live in that the more difficult it is to find meaningful struggles in everything becomes too some some dudes, bringing you your breeders every day on a silver tray like you, you, you don't have to actually like strive for anything. If you don't want to end and you lose something with that, there is, there is something I'm Tryin member. I it's the Phil Night book. Have you read that you don't know it's great? What took up shoe dollar shewed it's about the founder of Nike, ok and it's funny so the backup little bit after I wrote. Subtle are seven million copies, while the why I argue it like mine fuck me really hard, like a lot of what we're talking about the reason I decide the right about. It is because the astronomical,

sense of subtle art, like really mine, fuck me like it was. I woke up every day like well, I don't have to do anything like. I would literally spend an entire week. I see you got the Zelda shield, yeah. I would spend an entire week planes elder breath of the wild and sit in my boxers, unlike not shower and drive my wife, crazy and I would you now go check the analytics and it's like while sales when up twenty percent again, you know it's like there's nothing to do absolutely nothing to do it was amazing, but there was this profound. Like lethargy, like I didn't know, that's the way I eventually described it. Like. I had this whole set of dreams of like I want to be a successful author and I wanted to sell a ton of books and I wanted to speak around the world. And it's like some are just knocked out all those dreams and like three months and so then I woke up one day.

I have no dreams anymore, I'm nothing. The hope for. I have nothing to look forward to like I hit all the targets at thirty three or what and the worst part about this is, if you have, if you go complained, anybody there like they think you're total out of one hundred companies, even though you privilege visa shit, you know, but there really is an existential cried, like people really do get fucked up, and I think it's because we don't. We don't talk about because I think people are afraid talk about those thing: yes, because they'll just do go I'll, just like it s all up, I talk about it, but it's real and that's why they're, the correlation that you are talking about like there's data that proves that that should israel- and so I was sitting there and likewise is like the most depressed I've been those a teenager. I am like how. How is that possible unless you're looking islands like its essentially the same thing I you know when I was broke in alone

in miserable at eighteen or whatever. It was because I did not I felt like I did nothing to hope for I'd. Nothing look forward to aid and there is no clear vision of like what was next in my life. I realise that was the exact same thing in this case, so I went back to the full knife. I read. I read his book when it came out and I was blown away because it it's me see the story of its like the first diving fifteen fifteen years of Nike and in its just closer for Africa.

Sure fuck, like issues barely getting by the seat of his pants. Like close cholera, close call him mean broke for, like I think you didnt pay himself. The first eight years or something you know, there's just disaster after disaster and and then it ends when they go public and like the last page of the book, is again, and I woke up that the next day- and I was worth like hundred and eighty million you know and then in the conclusion he it's it's his present day fill and he's a gadget em we're like two million dollars. Any any said like the only regret I have is that I can't go back and live this again like he said. If I could

Oh back, you know he described like all the athletes he gets to hang out with and now all the all the big, the big house in all the cars and all this shit that that he has today and he's I guess. But if you told me I could go back and leave those first ten years again, he's like I would do it in a harpy like he's like that use best years of my life hands down, and I thought those so powerful like, and I can really too that a little bit like I'm but my own career, I'm the strategic for the days were like I was sleeping on a buddies couch and you know putting a blog posts every other day and like excited that a hundred people, you know- and I gave in and in the next week like a hundred and fifty people read it unlike. Oh my god, like I'm fuckin, maybe there's something like Ruby invigorating about that kind of like fighting tooth and nail for something that me

so much to you, but are you romanticizing and a little bit? Because I feel like we do that with the past, because, where such efficient editors in our minds- because you you you really much giving you may have. You may have experienced a few moments of excitement and like twenty three hours of oh, my god, just agony of none of hopelessness or whatever, and your brains editing all that out, because it you can't possibly say You know you care consciously keep all that information It is true that we are very, like our memories are very biased towards like we, we paint rosy pictures over like sludge and shit yeah by I mean it's interesting, because you know happened with this book, I busy signed on the do this, but I saw writing this book and then like right when I saw a right in it all these other projects fell on me and so

became super busy again and was like working. You know stressed all the time in and it felt good like I actually enjoyed working weekends more than I do when I was like sitting in my underwear for weeks on end, and so that was like that that's kind of where the realisation of like I need certain amount of stress and anxiety to like my optimal mental health is having a certain amount of stress and because it gives you purposely. Ultimately, we all want purpose. Yes and I think up a great example of the the romanticizing the pass you are talking about. It sounds more nostalgic like yes, I think everyone has an exam or of a song from twenty years ago that they fucking hate it. Every time I came on the radio like theirs now that all here, like on the lithium station on serious exam songs that I detested strongly in the nineties now here when I go

enough because it just it's just this isn't bad on how to get it now. You know it's just you know it just it transports you to a different. Do you like that just nostalgia? I feel like that. Dahlia that it's not necessarily a real qualitative statements. Will let me push back on. Ok, please! and I'll throw this? Are you sure I mean? I could give an example from my own life, but ok think about a time that you're superinduced algae for and think about a time that you're not the standard for, like you, wouldn T go back, which period was involved, more challenges, yeah, I know what it is like verses from you in high school, I ve never go back to high school, but, like I beseech you surround, spoke patent play guitar all day every day in an like talk, the girls and failed. You know like that, but it's that it was an ear

stress free life policy. I would say the reverse. I would I would say to reverse. I would say the hard stuff that you know I've. I went because I didn't really like great school sure. I think it provided a lot of growth. I mean like I was in an amazing student. I just wasn't. Very popular guide to share a lot of shit. You known got bullied a lot, and so I sort of when I look at that. I think well that form who I am so the hardest distressful things. Really that's where we experienced a most grunt, yes, but I fucking would not want to do it again interesting. You know because it just to me, but I am also can a person where like if, If I leave the house- and I forgot something I probably would more prone to either. Let it just stay at home or take a different way home, because don't wanna, go the same, I dont want to backtrack backtracking, so maybe that's just part of my personality.

So I got a little just borrow eyebrows vowed like having to go through stuff. Again, it's like yeah. I don't ever that boy sure wish our fifteen again now, but no, I want to live through all that should again, like I'm gonna, happy yeah. I I feel the same way, but I think its use like its of its interests. Its funding start experiments yeah, they units economic, pinpoint, wear them in and it's funny now that you say that if I get actually my high school life was extremely stressful and anxiety ridden, but it was maybe this is the difference it was. It was forces outside of my own control shore, whereas, like the era that, on the statute for a week when I was starting my business, it distress based on my choices and based on like what I was choosing to do with myself, right, yeah and the energy. You had that excitement. You had that! That's where the passionate you know like I'm gonna want to figure out a thing and you ve already been thrown up, but I was in college, my friend and I

he had a neighbor. Who was this super stoner dude, who would occasionally just say some really profound staff, and it's kind of reminds me what you're saying about getting the boat, but we are talking about dating in you know in any like yeah any taught you. May you mentioned some girl that it's like our man she's, the top of the top and and where I wouldn't like all you should ask- reduce like no: no, no, no, no, no, this booming away at this guy college, then USA, because no man, you never want number one- you want number two so you can still hope for number one like, oh, my god, what a crazy in the older I get, the warlike, maybe he's right thing. We think we want the thing that we think is going to change our lives. It's always good to like have that as it as a little bit of a dream content. If you get everything that is like our dear, I should references,

Usually that's like half of my book is it does. I think his name was Jimmy S like just the cool. Is this stony asian dude with like the hair do is back nice, sweetest guy, and it would just you know he was almost cinematic the way that, in the middle of a conversation, he would just say so, you'll be like foolish, that doesn't have someone in college know that, but I think that I think maybe that is, that is part of it, and so you know what would you say some of the steps would be for someone who's, trying to kind of sort through all this mess and all this chaos. And yes, it is We're in this struggle, like you know, is it well right, the stuff, figure out what you don't need figure out. What you're values are figure out this figure out. That is, that, is that, does it just too much does that's too much work? Oh no, I'm! U, we all have to do that way. I think I think it

it's a fundamental? It's two fundamental work that anybody united that I've a chapter. I talk about maturity and I think a huge component. Maturity is like the difference between a bein, a mature person. An amateur person is an immature person. Just gonna goes along with the values that are given to them was to reach can become a mature adult. You have to like consciously choose ok, this is the thing I'm gonna sacrifice, for this is the thing I'm gonna care about my life and- and I think there are a lot I think,

just getting more and more difficult to do that in a way, I think I've, I think you know we. We live in an age of abundance, of information and abundance of entertainment, media, and I think, when you have far when, in the amount of information out there like vastly outstrips any individuals ability to to consume it or process it, the most important question essentially becomes. How are you gonna filter like what are the values and the principles that are you? You are you gonna use to decide like what gets out of what you what you keep out, and I think most of us are on autopilot with that you now we just like you said twitters algorithm, just spits outrage at you in and we just let ourselves get sucked along. So I mean we pick on social me

but I think that's happening in a lot of different domains. Absolutely, and I also think from an evolutionary standpoint. We are social animals. Yes, we we need a community to thrive and all the self help stuff we read is really about our own individual selves out about the group, and so I think there is an emptiness because on a fundamental survival level, we need to connect with other people and contribute to could contribute to the group. Has anyone you know, anyone who is having an existential crisis or if you know, I feel sure, about themselves, a lot of those people. If they go live. Quality or their time or go help someone else. They instantly feel better because they're not focusing on themselves, their focusing on. Can the meeting in their focusing on other people and it takes them out of their own heads, which is, I think, kind of how we

a strange that I mean essentially, what gives our gives us a sense of meaning our lives is sacrifice. It's it's a giving up either something to help ourselves are giving up something to help other people like those debts, essentially like the only thing that generates at that sense of purpose that you are talking about and most self help material is revolves around trying to get to this mythical place where you never have to sacrifice anything right. Anybody riots and you get you get to have everything when you want it, how you wanna, you're the boss, you make all the decisions as late man, Nano adds. No, it is the world now you get. You get to have everything when you want it, how you wanna you're the boss, you make all the decisions as a man nano at now. It is the world not work that way, but it just leads you to like a very Lonely narcissistic plays, were you feel this disconnect like more disconnected from other people right

yeah, because in the same way that we might romanticized pass, we might also romanticize a vision of the future where you're sort of like that that old, infomercial, taboo was at his name like the guy. That would be standing on the boat, like you can make a billion dollar like girls behind every variable yeah. That's what I want, but you don't really like that such a romantic idea, because you don't think will never understand that wages is tum. Tum viewer damn deserve pills, I don't know I just. I think this idea. This idea that you know yes, you can have more things but more things.

Of your own kind of personal emotional baggage as well, and you know, and then you have this added challenge of like oh, I got this thing and now I'm not fall so I'm empty. So now I feel even worse, because the thing did not fix, but now I have to do now. I have this all others that are now despite willing and self destructive effect, but the because the thing did not fix me and now I have to do now. I have this all others that are now despite Lange and self destructive, but the key, I wouldn't say the key, like sell all your shit moved to the woods, but you know how how to how to start using internal reference points for fulfilling

in of yourself and who you are rather than trying to fill that bucket and that I think that's the real challenge and that's what I think people should be talking about and instructing people on yeah, yeah and- and I think I think the starting point is exactly what you said: it's it's it's giving its. I it's doing something for other people, The conclusion I ultimately came to is that essentially, the only meaningful thing you can do is help other people and by people. I include myself, you know it's like you, you treat you always make sure that your actions are treating other people as the top, the most valued thing in your actions and saw a results in that sense of sacrifice, it results in that sense of meaning a crook. That's what creates intimacy in relationships. You know, I think, a lot of

Will they assume that a good relationship is just like having fun and say cool shit to each other, and it's like know what went like what are good relationship actually is like what intimacy actually is is it is a sin like emotional sacrifice, it's like showing that being born, call showing your flaws, telling some really hate I really fucked up like you deserve better. Not in. I won't do it again, like that's what creates intimacy non like do you have that movie, two yards of the movie High five yearly in it some, and so I think it's it's just. We ve gotta be realistic about like this. This is just the way our brain like this is the way our brains work, and this is where mine works and if we don't own that an end and become aware of that, then all of this crazy technological shit- that's happening like it's gonna run us and not the other

right, because maintenance is not a sexy concept maintenance, but everything requires maintenance. You know, like you, any success that you too Eve any failures that you have any job. Do you have any relationship that you have? It is non stop maidens, but we do have this kind of you no movie idea like all once you once you d to be, will find each other Kiss and they run up into the sunset minimum rights they know, and then you know but relationships take work and they take care, and I mean it's a you know you, you don't you you couldn't just fucking plant. Let us in your backyard, be like what Do not happen. What are you grow water? Or would you do everything yeah yeah, you do you fucking do and people don't wanna hear about that that it's funny when I see like

please tell people that you know my background. My region, like the first thing I sir blogging about, was actually dating relationship advice because I was a disaster at it myself, and so it was funny. I spent like a number of years, Rien always books about dating relationships, emotions attraction all these things and it. Ruined. Brom comes for me like I've, never arrive every sentence anyone's, but it is what I was dating my wife. He knows you take me to watch like a romantic like some romantic comedy and- and I just like we sit near enough here- big con, you doesn't over that murder boundaries, it should show its romantic and, unlike then, no that's not romance. That is setting a precedent of bad expectations and she's. Going to you know my wife my god, I can't take you anywhere. Well, you have it wasn't like it wasn't wasn't my idea

You ultimately wrote about was like connected with people via honesty, yeah, as opposed to that sort of pick up artist idea like again, and deception and chicken and chicken people emotional sleight of hand like I just you know my wife and I our first date was our dad's, both coincidentally I'd within a month of each other online died of a heart attack and heard her state of cancer, and our first date was just talking about our dead dads and the experiences that we both had and it was, and it wasn't sad or morbid. It was just like that's what we talked about and it was like the most honest first, I ever had and now we're married. You know no, that's intimate as hell. That is really like.

Yeah, I mean it's and its funding as people avoid those conversations cause. It's it's it's uncomfortable and at her you know it hurts the talk about those things, but it's it's because it hurts that's. What you know brings you together and in a more meaningful way, and this is that you know, and that's kind of what I love about, not only subtler, but when you're writing about here in this because it I feel, like we're conditioning ourselves so much to avoid any discomfort, always whether its through you know, shopping or drug sex or this, or that is just all distractions, from discomfort due to the extent that people will like freak the fuck out, if anything, even feel slightly uncomfortable, yet Comfort is not only normal, but it's also where the growth happened. Yes and so we are in a sense, cheating ourselves of our full pay

sure by not allowing ourselves to feel discomforts because it you're stifling our emotional grove. Absolutely then, salute? I'm saying you should rush out into trafficking trading hit by a car, but I mean, like life, will deal you things, but because there there's just others too. There are things that are just Jackie, Velly shitty and then there's a lot of things that are subjectively she s and I think the subjectively shooting. Is where the idea of stoicism comes. Yes, you can choose how you pursue, This situation, you can use during an obstacle in too you know, and I had an asset. So you know how do you navigate those those kind of two fundamental prince rules of life. Well, I think it's I mentioned there is there? famous allegory

I'll go the right word and we know what the fuck the right words, I summoned the Buddha sat a parable of guys. He'd say he said that he said there were any time. Every time were hurt we get struck by two arrows. The first heard is the the the actual physical arrow like piercing your skin. The second arrow is the meaning that you ascribe the arrow piercing your skin and busy the Buddhist sad day. Once you master your mind, like still your mind, you're you're able to not not ever feel pain from the second arrow like you can still get struck, but the arrow doesn't hurt you because you don't put you don't, attach any significance to write, and so I think,

we obviously that's hard core is far end like none of us are going against another, but it's a nice thing to strive for sure you know, and so I just tried to be super aware in I taught I spent a lot of time in this book talking about like narratives the narratives that we right around our experiences and the narratives that we ride around our pain and like are we? If something happens to us when we were young liked, it is whether, if the narrative we ride. Is that it's our fault or that we're bad person or if the narrative we write is that you know the world is shity place like that's going to have a lot of effects. You know throughout going through our life into the future. So for me it's just it's just becoming to be super where those narratives that we create around our experiences, understanding that

generally as a rule, the first narratives that come the minor, always extremely biased and self serving and basically trying to get his adept at possible at rewriting those narratives or searching for maybe a narrative. It is a little bit more objectively, true or more useful for myself and for other people yeah, so that that's kind of abstract, but just don't. You know given example like let's say my wife does. Something really pisses me off in one narrative that is a pretty common narrative is like a while. My my wife's total bitch, you know like she's, so so disrespectful doesn't care about my feelings, and that is often actually like. The first narrative that pops in your head,

But you need to be like aware enough in savvy enough to be like to just recognise the duchess. The narrative like there's, nothing, there's no, like you said it's a subjective truth. There's no like final say that that is actually a truth, and you can try on other narratives same like you know. Maybe she didn't realize how this was going to affect me. Maybe she and I have different values maybe I'm being an oversensitive asshole and you don't have to like own any of them, but you can try him on its like going into a storm trying on a bunch clothes. You like me that fits very well like that. This makes me look good and you try. No, why you're? Like that's all scratchy you it at least just gives you, I guess,

a mental flexibility, psychological flexibility that that allows- I guess in the same way you know in and that having flexible muscles prevents serious injury. You know, I think, having psychological flexibility can prevents. Serious emotion injury it's it's your able to like more easily see that there are alternatives. That could be true that such a great at such a great analogy to because you know, when you go close shopping, you don't just walk and grabbed the first thing yeah, regardless of how it fits, or whatever disco, ok and before and walk out the all this such training else now. I wasn't right. Think yak, as I like that I traced has been one of those weird days where I was having breakfast and I was multitasking by trying to pay the Czech get my to go coffee, drink and type, and he mail, and I just knocked the

full cup of coffee. I could not have coded the computer anymore. We went with coffee and see everything is fucked everything everything about it. Everything is, and I took a pretty well, I was ice all right. You know what it's a thing. I can replace this thing. You know a guy, you know when I get home- and I realise that I haven't backed up computer and a couple, so you're, going to lose the all these texts in most things are in the cloud, but still and then my wife is like and my wife haste psychology there, and so she said? Oh, we know you could just take it to a place and just to have them, you know, like Poland like, oh I'm just gonna hand, my computer, with all of like my financial files and everything just do a random person and she's like I was just trying to and I go, but you took. Why are you telling me- and then I realized halfway through like oh this is my defensive go. I'm matter myself, yeah stupid that I instantly was like

being an idiot, I'm sorry. I appreciate you trying to help, but if I didn't have the, if I do Have the ability to do that, then I might just gone, but my first, reaction and that wouldn't have helped anybody wouldn't help me. It wouldn't helped her. And you know, and our suggestion was God you know so I don't know Yang into bring it back to the two arrow thing: it's you know initially that there's no set like there's no separation between the two heroes. It's like you get hit by the physical one and then the psychological one is just immediately there and- and I guess what the Buddha said is that the more you meditate, the more you practice more. You meditate by imagine it's not just in my opinion, it's not just meditation and could be any therapeutic practice, the more that the larger the separation between those two hour. So it's like you, had a reaction and then within the sounds like within, like five ten seconds you caught it like ocean.

I'm making this way out is my fair, yeah yeah. I just invented this thing and it it's in my experiences like them, like any other the more you do it the shorter that window gets. You know, so it's like the next time you ll be three seconds and next morning say fuckin thing to her. You know you to speak, yessir odyssey, something really those, but we really dig, but I think, but I think then you throw on top of all that stuff. That- and this is work it's really mind foggy- is that I think a lot of people think they deserve chaos they deserve to be shed on there, and so I think, a lot of people don't realize that they might create situations so that they can feel bad about themselves because that's their due.

Setting that they feel the most comfortable. They are in a toxic relationship with themselves, yes, but it's comfortable and for whatever reason it's what they think it's what they deserve and so on, but they made even realise that they are the architects of the that's a whole other level, shit yeah, it's yeah! That's that's! Like cautious squared it really is because it it sort of it begins to like fall back on itself. But that's my thing. It so important for people to get you know talk whether it be a therapist or support structure or a friend or a trusted. Varro family men coming and write down things that they feel right down. Things that they want and then really try to understand. Why they want those things? You might think you want something, but when you start kind of going the wise and the what it would takes in what it would take to maintain you might go. I actually don't want that. Being at all what a relief it is to. Let that go here and it's

once you start getting that space between you know the feeling of hurt and then your response to it. The more you start to recognise like wow. I am like totally shooting myself in the flesh repeated. You know it's it's I remember you know when I was when I was a teenager. Like lay my first serious girlfriend like we were both toy fucked up in the head and as as most teenager and and we would basically like- I didn't realize us at the time. I thought this- just our relationships, went by like she and I would both basic like gaslight each other like we would find. We didn't want to be the ones that start like started to fight, but we wanted to fight, and so we would like fine sneaky ways to like make the other person like really passiveaggressive ways like make the other person mad enabling all. Why are you mad voice

It's not my fault. You can't fucking pick up your phone and all this shit ray I'm just children. You know, whereas, like I basically likes up the whole scenario so Ike, I could be mad at her without it being my fault and its it took me like what took me. I d go to stare p before I realise that its like that was actually what I was doing, and it was because I was afraid to say that I was upset. It was afraid I was afraid to say that, like I was scared that I you know I couldn't handle the relationship that she was gonna leave me or something like that, and so I would find you know. Instead of confronting that I would just subconsciously, find these little things. That would would start. Fires in a relationship and she would do the same thing to me- you know it and it just, but when you're, when you exist at that level, when you think that that's what love is and in that that's what you deserve like that's, just how you be with somebody, it doesn't even strike you that it's like

totally fucked up short, but there also underneath that there are also issues of control, Passiveaggressive Control, the relationship in keeping someone off balance in and the idea of drama being pat. You going passion in Sunday, you known as like all aware, none of that none of that you don't need any of that. You could just think things can just be ok, that's what it is it's it's just everything is Fox was wonder, but is their apparent that it well that's like, but things can be ok, you know if you're, ok with that yeah, why

Raven saying the book like it's? It's I don't know if it was around that section eight. I think it's the next chapter, but I said it's like everything's. Fine everything's always give me fox. It's just a matter of the fucking, this getting better like finding better fucking this and it's it's kind of like an expansion of what I said and subtle art, which is that you know a good life is not a life without problems. It's it's a life with good problems and sew in self improvement is essentially finding better problems for yourself, and I think, just as in general, is a culture of the way we interact with society and in in general, it's about finding better issues to pay attention to. What's a good example of bad issue, finding a better is, who are bad problem. Finding a better problem is so. This is an area where I actually think you can get scientific about it and in truth, this is what drives me crazy

the about news media today as news media, is very much driven by like click bait and outrage and like drama and it's not, I think of you sat down and like rode out the top fifty issues affecting people in this country or in the world today and an you could like mathematically figure out how many people would it affects in other toppings would probably like climate change health care. Welfare reform tax reform, like boring, shit, that link error- nobody wants the year about. Nobody wants to talk about at the bottom. Of that lists would probably be what you see on the news all day every day you know it's like we're. Recording this after Jesse Small at just got acquit are all the charges drop in its like all that was on the news yesterday was every like. I went to the door

it was on all the new channels, the entire time I was on the jam. I went home. It was all over the Twitter feed Oliver. Facebook, unlike hoof, cares. You really like this are facts like five people in the world, you know it, but it's just good drama, so I think it's. What I try to do is is I try to look at issues and in terms of like a more objective importance. What are the things that I should be caring about her or or move acting towards stuff like drug legalization or prison reform? You know it's like things that you can of facts and you can put some energy and, to an end, she had like real results and because you put energy towards it, generates a sense of meaning an important importance in your life whereas, like

just sitting sitting on Facebook in writing, screeds about Jussie Smollett, like it doesn't it's just empty. It's like empty calories. It's just it's going to be gone in a week and you're going to forget it happened and and nobody's going to care like it's not going to matter anymore and that's true. If you're on the right or the left, you know it's it's one thing I was very careful about in this book. Is I wanted to write a book about our political culture right now about the polarization about like the media narratives, but without picking a side I wanted. I wanted to write a book that both people on the right

The left could read and be like. Oh shit, yeah that happens all the time. Like I see that on the other side, I see this stuff on my side, I see this. I feel this way all the time like I do this, because I really do think it's it's a society wide thing: it's not it's, not a republican things on a democratic Sunday, more american thing like this. This should happen in like twenty different countries. Right now and so I think it's we really need- need to take a hard look at like what are the forces that are causing these trends well, and I also wonder how much of the stuff we see a news media represent. Is Israel representation of what the actual world is like and not just a very specific snippet of India? That is again, of course, designed to increasingly.

Current designed to get ratings designed to get clicks designed to inflame your emotions and insecurity so that you engage you know like rather than living, your life off the internet which the internet doesn't want began. It can't make money out of it. So you know it's just that idea and I've reference of what many times and arguments for deleting or social media accounts right now is that the journey after than ever and and it's like- oh do you- I mean do you want all of your emotions. Basically come

find the banner ads. You know it's like you to think whether we oh yeah yeah, I'm getting mad so that a company can, you know like put an Amazon link on their something and get a click through, or I dont think I reference timber. His book who owns the future was like pretty mind opening for me when I was doing research for this I'd rather right, every bone yeah, it's really good. It's it's a lie. More about kind of. Like the economics of me. He basically fundamentally makes the argument that the economics behind a lot of just social media, but like a lot of attack, apps and stuff that we use today is just fundamentally by definition, unethical and he makes it a really convincing way. Like it's pretty surprising, you know it's one of those things that its hiding in plain sight,

Susie shows, as you like. Oh shit, he's right like it's just their monetizing people's attention and in that is by definition, manipulation like it is I give somebody I give you and I were like sitting she's. All right now in some guy, like you know, came up and flashed a bunch of stuff to you and convince you to give him a dollar through bunch alike. You know misdirection and what not we'd be like. Oh yeah that do just cheated you out of a dollar one boat. When it happens online were like was his business by the way when people say it's just business, the that are a positive thing that happened it's actually putting words, no use getting fucked over some really terrible.

A man was a thing you said for first you're tyrant, who owns the future that it's all, it's all a sleight of hand. It's. What did you say initially? It's not the echo how the echo economics behind a lot of like what Silicon Valley is producing is like by definition, because he his argument. Is that a fundamentally route removes people's autonomy in volition, which is its think. That's that's kantian argument, night entire mention Khan, the book, but like yeah, it's did the technologies designed to remove our ability to make our own decision. I think people are aware of that. I think on some level they know

yeah. But it's like I smoked in my twenties and a thousand people a day could said. Like you know it's bad for Andy like Europe like we know, there's also a certain amount of self harm that that is also makes us. He'll autonomously bogan bucket myself up, but you oh care and I think, there's there there is that element of a two like. I think I really do think. If you asked a lot of people, Do you really think the internet, like all the subjects living? It's all see we're healthy they'd, be like probably not you know, but what however, what are you gonna do yeah. I think the difference between like this and smoking is that this

who had their social harms. So it's because all like our cultural narratives are defined by the media. We consume Mahina, so it's and if the media we consume is like vastly skewed towards emotional reactions and outrage, then our cultural narratives gets hewn and when our cultural narratives rescued, then we like don't have an accurate depiction of you know, what's up actually happening in the world, what's important in society in a window with Jesse smaller on tv for six hours straight

and there's no discussion of taxes or healthcare, prison reform or whatever, when it like that, actually affects millions of lives. So there's a disconnect between what drives attention in what drives engagement and white. What actually like, improves, lives yeah. If, if we can, I think it's important use at all. Most people won't but use it responsibly in the sense of either understand you there's a disconnect understanding that there is a certain level of in enhanced their enhancement and social media that are design

too few, all your most basic emotion so that you engage the you stay on the platform longer, and so maybe that means, like you know reminding ourselves of that, forcing ourselves to step away for certain amounts time, maybe not having certain social media apps on your phone, maybe saying, if I'm, if I engage in internet stuff for this many hours a week, and I also have to engage in real world activity of other people this many times a week or don't a time to a charitable cause or absolutely that that we that we have two, because this is the the internet's up, is responsibility, and I think people just what they dont want to have to do the work for you. No doubt they think it's all about Indians and ease of use, but really, I think it actually creates a much much more societal responsibility. They then we realise, because we have to go out of our way to not get stuck in that's all I got. There

ology great social media like smoking, except everybody's smoke, it in the same room. That's right so, like a smoking lounge at an airport Yes exactly so it's like the more people you Cramond, Ok, if you want to smoke, that's fine by the more people you cram in that room issues, the more things second hand smoke the more the second answer, the more that we're just you know the mortal cancer spreads Yegg is that there are some there. There's some airports rope it. So if its common anymore, but but there are some air it's that you walk through and have been a lot of em, where it's like the smoking, lounge in glass by say, you're, just like walking in its like airport airport airport fuck in Scotland, where it's just like I said, go in there and, if like well, its veto like they're, getting first and second hand smoke I think that, above all things you don't even need the lightest figure, and now you just walk in and that's how it is I sort of answer is that it is like Zoellick second hand,

social media, that's kind of what were, and I do you know I feel, like I've, been taking social media to task a lot less envelopes as it is not. I do think that its meat, whatever it's a tool, its neutral, it's like yeah, you know us a hammer is evil you beat someone to death with it there its useful, if you use it, to build a house year in is. Social media is an easy target right now like it it's it's kind of a popular punching bag and an eye. I go through a lot of pains in the book to like not sing without, like I use it as an example a number of times, but I really do think that a lot of these assumptions and a lot of like what's going like a lot of what we consider like good innovations, there are side effects in. I would say in again it's what we are talking about too much comfort optimizing for people's emotions, rather than for, like what's good for people,

You know creating skewed perceptions of like what the world is or what the world's like for the sake of yellow profit in. I think you can you can make an argument that this is its most noticeable and social media, but I mean it occurs in a million different places. I mean everything from our smartphones to our video games to veto. Networking tools, like everything is just its its becoming comfort, is part of the primary bottom line. From most of the things that we invest in and pursue and in comfort, at a certain point, search, backfiring yeah I mean it which again lose that a buck were yes, we need to start. We need that Goldilocks zone of the suffering of pain, but it's funny to me that you know in the last couple a handful of like founding Silicon Valley, guys come out and said like wait, a minute. Yes, I was on the deaf team at Facebook

I am here to tell you that it is bad. It's We designed it like a drug is fucking up society in its bucking. You up like there's, have old people and the bank Ma Am, I always think, did you give? money, neck Sid, it's one thing. So one thing I do talk about in the inner in in one of the chapters is, is so what I started my web first, what business and like? Oh, seven or eight- and you know I studied marketing icily copyright in sales and cause I was doing like online marking starvation and I talk about the book. I like one of the first things if you study copyright sales will. First things you learn is the way you sell somebody something is you find their pain point? You fine like what they feel bad about in their lives in your pocket it, and then you tell him that your product is the solution.

So, if everything from like you know, beer commercials showing girls and bikinis and, like you know, truck commercials like flies in over mountain regions. As I got your beard, adventurers man, you know count, you know the duties a couch, potatoes, Sentner is legal or be adventure was to be no one of utopian and fifteen. So I mean this is marketing one on one leg: it's it's the basis of so much of like our commercial life. Is designed around like poking at insecurities in feeding. Into our narratives of like a shame inviting me, though, those basically like a busy like like companies and products are nagging us like here. Begging us girls, who wait a minute orderly way, its do most p waste of came from sales like it it's like rate up sales tactics resource, used on women's like get them to hook up with the army.

I'd better, get it so true who demonstrate value you? U pocket their pain points you like offer, you offer a solution to their problems? You know it's just I gave you escalated, you create. The problem is like. Like black breath, you pay, you ve got bad breath but we have a solution for that. Oh my god, I'm so glad I didn't know. I had a thing before him and now that I know you know like it. So I guess that's great yes, so it is. But although I feel like most most click babies stuff is it really giving the solution? Now, it's just poking at the insecurity degrees increase engagement. It doesn't, it doesn't say you know it just says: hey here's. This fuck paper uses really fucked up thing. You know, like everyone's got some friend who always to deliver bad news, because Europe has its empowering legality which had arisen and you leave you pay attention? You know because that my god they ve got a new Mainly, I need this banner and that's basically what the news media is become, but they're, not

wearing solutions is just like heap stay, but that is only look, terrible yeah comment about and well. I would argue that the ideology is the solution, so you know a fox this has its solution MSNBC. As its solution, and it's it's what it is as if the overarching ideology so ate. It it will show you. This awful awful story of Lake Ino, some homeless kid who, like got screwed over by some governments service something in it and it's like the implication. The way its frame, the weights presented, the application has some ideological agenda and it's the same thing with rightwing news, media and it's it's essentially is it's. It's weapon, icing information and I mean that's always occurred to certain agree. I just think it's when you network the planet amplify that web innovation to like the nth degree, and everyone realises that? Oh just to get attention all you have to do is do that and then you start impact

storing you realize, like. Oh, this video was really connected. I thing this kid's actually home with you that wasn't fiercely completed within Europe, but most people are going to go there and knew the news media. The next day, isn't gonna go. We may have made a mistake, there's gonna be like Yahoo. Members yesterday that both for our cycles, a girl who, for years now we're about about this other thing, and you forget about that and forget that they fuck you over the day before Billy. Oh, my god knows that about this. To the psychologist repeats you yeah we're wieners. You know because it's out like that, you know like we can blame so maybe we can blame these me, but it's you know it's like seeing tabloids at the girl MR like this is disgusting, why do they use Paypal by idea like we are responsible, but no one ever thinks it's the same way voting when everyone everyone has this dim view themselves like water if it doesn't matter. If I vote on one person doesn't matter if I

I mean tablets might be Bab. Doesn't matter is just one person, so it doesn't matter. If I and it's like, because if everyone thinks that that's a problem there, you're an unconscious swarm that doesn't know it's a swarm and it's not to different than the smoker restrained equipping like well. What's one more thing, your exact words won't one were cigarette yeah. It's it's The world is made up of just one more yeah so is the salute. The solution is just the sort of be aware that that's the case and to fight it is about That is why I did yourselves. I think that I mean this is why a harp so much on values, because I think I think it's like you need to find your values and you need to be, and I want to say unkind, rising item, but when I say uncompromising, I don't mean it like, like a conflict sort of way.

You know I mean uncompromising terms that you yourself are. You adhere to them like you, you you stand up for them, you and you invest in them. You cut out the bullshit that doesn't matter and a? U you stick to it and it's it's hard very difficult. You fail lot, but I think it's. It is paramount in this day and age that we develop a better ability to do this, that the ability to sift through all the noise and all the garbage and pick out like the two or three things at like really are important and just stay with them, because if we don't, you know it's like all these things, like you said it there's always get me. People are just click. Every click bait. There's always gonna be people by tabloids by there's a certain there's, always tipping point. You know so

its if even like thirty forty percent of the population decides, wait, I'm seeing these click bait fuckin stories. You know like that. That is a massive effect on the bottom line of all these outlets. Yet if they didn't work, they wouldn't do them exact. So if you stop- and so I think it's again its people finding a Goldilocks zone in themselves of feeling like they matter enough, but that they don't mean everything yes cause. It's like either extreme is bad. If you feel it You're not I mean times you like their been times when you know I've engaged like some Someone says something really truly and I and I kind of engage them and their like whoa. What the fuck My opinion matter to you and then the ablest don't respect you even more, because I don't respect themselves there like why the fuck you have x, Y, Why does my? I don't mean anything, so it's like make making sure that people feel like they matter enough.

In an understanding they matter enough, that their vote counts choices that they make count, but not so much of an over significance that it's like what my opinion is factory. I mean everything. So it's like how do we find that that that perfect little Goldilocks Odin in Self worth Harmon. It is odd that early struggling to feel like the goalposts is always moving in deciding sliding scale. But, oh weird side question, which is why Do you not read your books in the audio, but first I listen to the already what version of solar- and it was not you, oh so, there's really easy explanation for that. As lazy right all rejected. We both talked about how like doing an audio book. It's they did not find it's not bad. So I did it for this one, oh god I did it for this actually had a lot of fun with this good Khazars, some pretty wacky sections.

But here is funny, and it is actually really funny good, because the guy who did subtler, I keep it, totally hit it out of the park. But it's a funny. It's a funny story like how I came across him, so I was like beyond uninterested in doing the audio books like I just it sounded like the worst thing on the planet from you to spend my time to an end, and so they kept sending me clips of reader. Who you know, I'd listen to the clip and I kept telling him like you know. I need somebody who can nail the sarcasm, can get the humor and has like a really dry delivery. You know they kept sending me clips, guys were alike and now chapter I dont no leg. You fuckers, I suppose, some hard assiduously don't give a fuck about life who can like just deadpan deliver. You know some really dry, humor and so finally, like eleven or twelve narrators deep

and they send me the sky and I heard a voice, and he says something funny and unlike ok, cool, that's him like perfect, like our it sweet jump ahead like three or four months. I sickening emails, people were like. Hey, I'm really excited free audio book, but why did you pick the romance novel guy tonight? so. I'm gonna go to audible analogue, I type in the guy's name and sure enough, like sixty romance novels, come up and, unlike only what did I tell you? What did I do is nine job? Oh no, he can only really evolves. He killed it and it's funny because he did such good job and and now he's getting tons of, like self help, explain what it, even as far as it was the one thing that I missed, because I love I love hearing an author read their own book, because even if its unconscious, you tell your story bass, yes, and so you I'm so happy to hear that you did

when, because it's you can tell subtly what parts are important to you, yeah and so like it, then, in a way, it's like you, sitting down and you are telling me like. This is there's a whole other layer to this book as told by me some so glad, I'm so glad you did this one. Can, I think, that's gonna be. Did you recorded already yeah, it's already done in yeah, just in this day and age, you know like audio books are becoming so big. Now yeah dad it's it's becoming expected for the author to do it. So I I kind of enjoyed it like once I got over the initial like really like you know you get a couple hours into you're, gonna get a groove going. Has this fund nice, you ever you get a couple more hours passed that in words, don't mean anything. You say the word cat like ten times and you can't member, what it means less just start. Looking like lifts, there would be a random words that it couldn't pronounce anymore like a murmur. I think the first day I couldn't say the word champion:

I got for hours and unjust that every time we got the word chant IBM Chick champion the lake, the New Orleans champion just ever, go back: do it again, go back? Do it again, you know that's we're going to get my needed sleepy for, like a gay, and my last question is how Could you please all the breath of the wild? I think I logged. I was well over two hundred hours yeah, it's for sure, so I play through twice I did just like our normal play through and then I did masher mode within the Elsie, I did not do that. It's such a it's! Well, my fear games are it's incredible. It is absolute credible. So I probably log back two hundred to fifty. Oh, my God did all the deal seaside class got like six hundred cure ox or whatever the fuck. Those things are ye. I put way too much weight which yeah I've. I've been I'm just

spare meeting with learning with taking this amount of time that I was doing playing video games and like learning, italian and learning an instrument and learning lies. As you do, I mean seriously. What would be the point of that's? What I could go through and get the highroad shielded certain a certain shields, or a sword, or whatever I mean it's still, if like I can, even here, the menu selection sound effect in my head in the coms me down Pavlov. It is because it was such a beautiful and my wife was like all fuck animal crossings coming out switch this far and we played a ton of animal crossing. We first started dating and it's an incredibly fun silly immersive time wasting game that is apparently going to be more or less dense. If before and I'm like lids, I don't think I can do it again, it you have to play with Vietnam like cause, I'm just kids just going to eat

so much of my time as I love it so fucking much. This is. This is always how you know. You're talking to a real gamer. Is that you have dislike awful love, hate relationship video, it's it's like theirs is. Whenever I hear theirs exciting new game coming. Others like this panic, you know it's like a flash I don't know no time for Lou, which Lydia never played skyrocketed came out on switch, and so she bought a copy for me, and I was I wanted to know that I was like What are you doing is almost like his like it's not quite the same would always be like if she bottom six pack of beer and sixteen years of riding like what are you doing to think? Don't you understand I was just building houses indifferent holds with cabbages like I was even join, didn't wasn't, they may live to do anymore and I was still bugging running around you know aerial. You know how I found you notice.

Above all your game so and its aids interesting as its you know, so I stopped plain. I played way too much when I was young and then I stopped place like ten years when the safe they killed in my business. It's funny how many guys I meet, who who do I need to get sucked back in the games of Morocco that you look really cool and you're older and your leg. You now you get married and you're like hanging out home alive and you're like what should I get extra money later by any video game? I want you know, and so I got back into it. It might thirties, and now it's interesting as adult now I can kind of see it like. I still play probably like five hours a week or like it's, it's my favorite waited just can unwinding chill out on a Saturday morning or you know on it they night or whatever, but I notice that when things are really going well with work and in my life in general, an hour's enough like an hour sit down for an hour and let go you that was fine and then like. I get up, there's no problem. What I've noticing is that when I fall into that pit of like thirteen hours,

I like? Oh, no, I need every shields where you know it's when that starts happening. I've noticed it's because there's something in my life that I'm not happy worth or that I'm like our interest waiting in. So it took me a few years to start realising that, but its and then, as soon as I go and come like fix it up, you know it's like there's something worth. There was pissing me off and it's like come get it all set straight and then I go back to I go back to sell them like right. Thirty minutes has enough yet you weren't, you actually found the work shield yeah has completed. You had to complete they're gonna get a hundred percent. My career man, you gotta, get all the achieve unable to find every work, Karabakh eigenvalue, you know you can only you keep killing both goblins and then the workbook goblins just keep public actually got a funny lifetime. What the book isn't like, no matter how many bulk workbook islands is always a blood moon,

the gardener and those other puckers just respond basically lay the life is workings. Elder life Zelda been. I don't think there is a better way to end that everything has sparked a book about hope is, is when is this out? May fourteen May, fourteen of hopefully it's out when people here this? Yet what? What book it so that it comes out. Sometimes thank you. Budget with such an honour? To me you is this one. I really you know. I've recommended your book to a lot of people there it's been recommended back to me in the self improvement sub read it. I see pop up all the time. You know. People like this was pretty Quito. Say people try to be cool about stuff, really, village veto. It really get pretty good helped a lot. It's alright

I've been pretty much did everything the book said is fully ready. Three only read it three times only three times, but but it was really nice to meet you in person and so much for coming out and pleasure right. The end, sweet tsar, guess what life is upwards fervent life is now that life is over. There was the eighty twenty Pakistan, where one thousand five with Mark Madsen definitely read his books. And absorb them, others there's a lot and nuggets, and there that I think you will be able to take away and apply and grow and learn and evolve. And I dont kind of in the mood today, for the word salad rap to talk about the concept of happiness. Everyone pursues it a drug and- and I think, because we look at it like a drug like it's this thing

that we're gonna somehow get too like a goal, a specific event, I've been wondering if not really the right way to think about happiness. Why? I know it is an actor. I don't think it is and so a sort of expansion. Is this idea- and maybe this will maybe this will help you sort of feel better about how you kind of a just your goals and what you think about happy, because I think happiness is really like a a state rather than if an event, and it's not really an event based thing, but I think what a lot of people and certainly not all people, but I think what a lot of people ten to do as they say this. I even think that the term, the pursuit of happiness is the wrong way to even think about it. I think that's the wrong paradigm, because it

it isn't necessarily something you chase after, because it's not it's not a material thing and I think framing and in that way makes us think that some sort of immaterial thing that we have to attain or earn or completed he's of quest to reveal, and I really think it's just us a general state of being a general state of peace. A lack of ups and downs and drama end up I'll? Put it It's when you're younger it's very hour. Maybe people did us our whole lives, but it's very easy to mistake, lust for love because you get all caught up. In a chemistry with someone in your consume in New York, soon by each other. To my God is the most amazing Google, my god his love, and sometimes it is but love I dont believe, is that spiky. You know it's like chasing

I don't think love is a high and I don't think happiness is a high. I think those things can occur with love and can occur with happiness, but they in it of themselves are more of a by product the situation in a rush Muckle Rush in your brain rather than a state, a state of being I've been we're, with the same trainer Tom for oh my gosh fourteen years. Maybe and when I was younger You know what I would work out. I would always want to feel something like yeah fell. I feel so I feel in it I'm doing stuff I'm workin because I feel it yeah and then the older you get listen kid really is seeking to get injured. You can hurt your neck just for get over there real fast or you can fuck up your knee just cause. You drove for forty five minutes, and so I said that recently

it's for you when I was younger. I really is to work out to feel something and now I stay fit the guy. Is to not feel anything in because unfeeling something there's probably something wrong? You I mean so the goal is to not feel anything in that apps the feeling is a very scary thing, because we took our so the thinking like a well. If I'm not from not fee, anything, I'm not doing anything and if you're not doing anything, you're not achieving anything, but that's very goal based thinking and result, oriented thinking and to say, like not free. Any thing doesn't mean that you have to be empty and a shell Just means you don't need to chase those spikes. You know that I'm gonna feel the Berne and my muscles, or I gotta you know I mean Like I'm really doing something I need to feel to be alive, like you can just be alive, feel peaceful,

That's ok, that is, ok, you don't have to distract yourselves. You don't have to do anything you can just sit and and be proud of who you are and be content with who you are and again it goes back to the idea of happiness because I think we can get so caught up chasing happiness like a high, but I dont necessary. They think it's just a subtle shift in readjusting how you define happiness, because if you just look at it is like clearing off all the clutter, clearing off all the bullshit, you know being content being peaceful with who you are, I think, that's happiness. It's not the spike I'm so happy like that's just a guess. What all its situational lust. Maybe this is just more of a break down for people who are in recovery.

You who were alcohol or whatever and whose sort of way that way but its. But it's it's just the idea that can be very easy. You know if you're feeling lost, if you're feeling empty to get addicted to the idea of that physical rush, but I don't think that Russia's true happiness, nor is drama in a relationship passion nor is lost, love, and I don't think you know is necessarily something it has to sexual lust. Is you know? What's that for life, it's a sort of ague pop idea, but you know less for life, always also as a little bit of a deer, negative- is an it to catalogue. Yeah do all the drugs eat. All the kegs stay up all night party tat. We live in or live in new proof that

necessarily is. I think it's an epoch amount of distraction from yourself than from your feelings, but you know what I think for love. Like longstanding peace, and for that long standing, state of contentment and happiness. I told thinks it's a cripple onto black. You know people who, pursue last as an idea in any form, situational or in any form burn out really fast, and then they get addicted that high again and they need it again and again, it's just like you know X, on social media. I got legs, I gotta get more. I gotta get more. I need more this. I need more. That so maybe I guess you some sort of wrapping this up the. If you, If you suddenly shift your thinking into from work of a result oriented happiness, a pursuit that you have to change,

and rather as a state of being and contentment, and being ok with yourself and just sort of wiping. All of that you know I have to have that adrenaline spike feeling to feel happy to do something again. Its review will really bring it down. Just the idea of being verses, doing right, it is having- others. In other words, what are you have rather than what are you to achieve to feel content. What do you have that? You can content about rather than what are you. Delaying your contentment for for some thing that you're gonna win. You know that you probably can achieve in that moment is gone, and then you have to pursue something. It's because you need that Russia them so again This may not be for everybody, but I do it- is something that I've been really fascinated by lately. You know chasing happiness

other than chase chasing moments in situations, rather than just being. What do you have that you can be thankful for? What do you have it? You can be content with. You know: you're you're, probably there good chance, you're already. Ok, you don't even know it because you're just looking outward, it all goes back to the idea of internal reference points, as opposed to external reference points that you think you're in a fix. You so be happy to end. That doesn't mean because the happy. Sometimes I think you know that idea of don't worry, be happy. Don't worry, people think become happy, no b be happy. You can and you deserve it, and I appreciate you and thank you for listening to this episode and I'll see you in your ears real soon I II and iii incomplete retail.