This is the part cast family known as the thread with Darrell Cooper and me. Jocker, willing and We are re. Releasing these this original series or the origin episodes in this part cast a guess. It's more than a series cause, we're gonna keep doing it, but we had to rename it turned out that There was already a podcast called the thread which I didn't you Google or look didn't know, was a thing and the people well, there's another broadcast, and so they came out us with cease and desist letters and legal action and all that stuff, which is fine because they own the name so we need a new name. We honest around a bunch of ideas, and landed on the job oh unravelling podcast why did. We put our name.

Want one is why'd. You pick Java Wells really easy. I own that name No one can t us or you know, threatened sue me for using my own name, so we are protected there, and unravelling, because the intent is still the same as the original idea behind the thread podcast, what we're gonna do is unravel what is happening in the world today and get to some of the root causes. And maybe even if we don't get to root causes, we at least get a better understanding of the world by unravelling what we see in its also not only because were unravelling things and looking at them anymore and you level theirs so, obviously another meaning to the word unravelling the means things coming apart and.

While the world and specifically humanity in many ways like human life life there somewhere, humanity and human life are similar in that they can both be in credit. We durable and adaptive and resilient they can both also be unbelievably fragile. You can have one man be shot twenty times, and survive and walk away. And someone else can catch. A random piece of work, ricocheted bullet a tiny piece of ricocheted bullet and die. And society and humanity can be kinda like that,

Sometimes it can survive all kinds of turmoil and chaos and then, in one instant event can change forever can at least dramatically alter its course can cause things to unravel So we started off this podcast and in the first one, is it the first number with what seven the first seven The first seven of these that you will listen to if you haven't listened yet we do of deep into the Iraq war and I guess we kind of fell into that. You I'm gonna kick you wanted to go hard right fugitives, It is not so so. Darrow wanted to go hard which, which makes sense, because he had his own experiences. He had his own knowledge. He had obviously reddened studied in. Was was deployed

over in that region and then on opera that you know he knew well. Wanted to know about my perspective on the ground and so the first of these seven we go deep deeper than I think we plan to. May have veered off the course. The original intent of this park asked, which is sort of to bring things or to look at things, are happening today but at the same time you know, it's ok because everything's related and and that you understand specific events In the past, the better, you understand all events and the better. You will understand the way things unravel, so that this is an interesting sinner that's unfolded the universe. Across from each other at a table. I talk to

this a little bit when you were just on my podcast, the Jackal Podcast, about how we got here, but just a just can review how we ended up here. You have a point: That's called martyr made. Yes, in my opinion, one of the best part gas there. And I have a problem with I have a problem with the educational system in America, that problem is kind of based on the fact that people don't tie or teachers and when I say educational system on stock talking all the way from the time you gotta, whatever kindergarten through call which I didn't go beyond college, but the whole time. You're getting all this information, but all the info is disconnected, in other words, theirs a thread the Thyssen altogether, when the reality is as you

and, as I eventually learned myself, everything actually is connected. Everything is connected, whether its science or math or street or literature or politics, it doesn't matter, you take any those things and there is a thread that ties to everything up. This is human history and we missed that and it makes it for me. Made it harder for me too, to under damn things at a deeper level because their nook context around them right. You just get like oh here's, a chunk time period. You take this history class about this part of american history of this part of european history or this scientific period, its past. Just learning these talks, but are not not connected. So you don't I never like I developed as much comprehension until I started to fill in these guys and you take out. We rolled out one step further than you look at our news media today and they take these

they take the events that are unfolding around us and they give me two, very one, dimensional e, with very little deaf. Occasionally you can get to tutor pensions on a subject here there, but they certainly aren't taking the events that are happening today, which all have threads. That led into history that give you better understanding of the things that are unfolding before our very eyes so you know, since I'm a listener of your podcast euro listener, my pocket. I was actually on your podcast one time we did it. We did a man knowledge, Artois podcast with you and me, and Daniela. And that was that was really cool. I enjoy doing that, but. I haven't, we said: hey man, do you wanna? Do you want to do something where we talk about? What's going on in the world right now, and we dig deeper and weep?

the thread on how a vents got to where they are. What you think, I think, is necessary now you know you talked about the news media when you have no context, it makes everything a surprise. Everything that happens is just a surprise. Nine eleven happens in its just a surprise. What who are these people? Nobody knows it just completely out of nowhere, and that leaves us vulnerable to anybody who comes along and says they ve got a story that explains it. You know, and sometimes a people share in those stories have agenda. Sometimes they don't have all the facts and arm like you said everything's connected you: can you can take any event. You know what you say: what is World WAR Ii? Well, it happened between one thousand nine hundred and thirty nine one thousand nine hundred and forty five well did it or did it start at the treaty of Versailles and then, if that's the case that go back before World WAR one and what about the ending pointed end in nineteen? Forty five: are you sure

How far out as I go, you can take that all the way out to Adam and Eve. If you want to figuring out how to draw those lines can be difficult, but but that's what it's about figuring out, how these things connect to the world we find ourselves in now, so that when things happen, is not such a surprising you're, not so vulnerable. People peddling stories with an agenda behind him and then, as we were, having these discussions, some things were kind of in our face, a little bit about well. Salami had just been killed. We're talking about. I ran we're talkin when you're end. If you're gonna talk about, I ran you actually have to talk about Iraq. You have to talk about what unfair but there were ISIS, and then, where did ices come from and and then again now? Mouse does exactly where it all starts. As like? Oh you start to pull the threat on this, and you said yourself: ok, what is really going on at a deeper level when we start to pull the thread. Then you gonna came back at me after we

talked about a couple different topics where you go through and you came back to me and you know, use you said: hey man, Why are we even playing around here? Let's talk about list about Iraq and go through it with a level of detail. So people have some real understanding. What will of what has happened there and but our involvement there has looked like in what led to our involvement. There and started kind of filling in some, the blanks. If you had about things that I had seen in and then you started Saint await. You were there for this await. You were there for that, and then it kind of, just built story around itself when you said: let's, let's do some: let's do it and I said yeah call sounds good. I will say and unite agree. To try and put some constraints around this in terms of time you and I have ridiculously long podcast. You know my longest is five hours, Five minutes, I think what what's your longest close to seven,

which want to seven elastomers like six forty. I think that was a good one. Yes, are you and I both that? Ok, what we're not going to do this and unite a clear both have a propensity to just go and so we're going to try and keep what we're work. You will keep this do about an hour and then we'll just Will this go to the next topic and in another episode, so that way people can jump up and have to worry about trying to find where it is alma on their on there I cast platform to figure out where they left off, etc, etc and plus, to give us just a natural sort of Gar, grail of you and me, going completely into the seventeen hours own sister, so, when we talk about Iraq, where, where do you want to kick this off? You just gave me the starting point. I wanted actually witches

talking about ISIS coming out and how to most people, where did ISIS come from the came out of nowhere Right came out of the chaos of assyrian civil war for all anybody knows, that's really the way it was portrayed, as is just this group rises up out of the sand and comes into a rack Creating all this chaos in most of the public did they came at an ETA, nothing right. Like a spontaneous break, spontaneous group appeared out of. Nowhere is what it is. To be a lot of people, I will say that I believe the term is law make state began to get used Joe after I left on my last deployment, I'm going to say two thousand and seven when I believe they started to use the term islamic state that is correct, but who started to use. That term is the point right that grouped in come out of nowhere and you know it,

by the time ISIS comes around. Most of the public in the west is kind of disengaged from Iraq. They moved on. They don't want anything to do with it. This is when president bombers in there and he ran on getting us out. You know and for what would win when you're part of the public, getting the narrative the way they were getting. It eats understandable why they were just like. Why are we here? Enough is enough to get us out of there and that's where we were at by the time I suspect, round. The majority of Americans at that point could have cared less, who was controlling Felicia or remedy, or anything like that ISIS got our attention because this group came out of nowhere and, they seem to be engaging in acts of violence, we're so over the top and so barbaric that that people thought it. There's nothing like this ever happened before? That's what people I mean because they didn't, you know again coming back to the history in the context of it. In August, two thousand fourteen,

they're turning on your tvs are gone to websites and there's an australian citizen whose travelled on the Middle EAST with seven year old Son and he's putting up. Sure of a seven year old Son holding up the head of assyrian soldier. People are saying, wait a second. This is something different. A few days later, ISIS releases a video featuring jihadi. John speaking, perfectly plain English threatening the camera with a knife and that the head off of american journalist, James Foley- and this starts to get people's attention. The group starts releasing all of these propaganda videos. He slick propaganda videos. There was, of course, the famous one with the jordanian pilot that had gone down that they capture? did they burned alive in a cage, their film in themselves are not hiding this their filming themselves, throwing homosexuals from rooftops. How much of this as that's unfolding right

How much of that is the modern day? a four year old social media, Egocentric me me me if I'm gonna go out and do jihad, I'm gonna take pictures of it. Yeah yeah, I think that's probably beer onto something I mean to say that there were videos before, but now you can get famous. You know you can get famous in its private profit got something to do with the step up in school shootings. In thing is well, you know it's it's away for somebody with no identity and living in a world where it seems like they don't have any ability to exert will in the world You know nobody notices them, you just a nobody. What you're gonna notice! You noticed this. Was the strategy of making these videos okay, so we have. We have some element of this is: the new world. This is social media. I wanted

famous. It's about me objects John, with with the worst, he found the british acts are at issue and but doing a warehouse from in Britain. I'm sure we do. I don't So here is this: guy is: are we gonna get famous? That's part of it. Part of it had to be hey. We're gonna recruit, get people down here which again what it wanted. What a just who are you recruiting? That's that's! The question if we're sawing off people's heads on camera. Who were brooding, I I won't. We know who work or to end it worked. There are tens of thousands of those people responded. The call in those people were living in our societies before before they went down to Iraq. They were living in our cities. I mean there's his ears like one that I haven't watch too many of their of their videos, but if watch some of em just to try to get an idea- and there was one that stood out where it takes place in old broken down,

Musement Park and it's got a bunch of kids executing prisoners. There is one where a boy who was hardly big enough, ITALY, that the gun that they give him is too big for his hand right and he shoots a kurdish prison in the head is another one where they ve got a prisoner tied up on like a broken down, carnival ride, and they give this kid a big old knife, its way too big for many climbs up on this thing and murders, the sky there's one like well choreograph scene, where this kid is walking through. You know those like all those plastic ball pits. They got this kid walking through like this dusty ball pit and he gets there. Is somebody handsome this big gun, any kind of

closed his eyes and looks away and blows stewards brains out, there's other videos where they got kids executing other kids. If you got kids killing people in an amusement park, you're doing something very different than just saying, you're, sending a very specific kind of message about what kind of people? you are and who you're trying to attract? At that point, right I mean this isn't just near the kids are in on the jihad to their doing this and amused part, that is a level of depravity, that's that that that take we know that seems to take things to a new right seems to ask where I want to go with this. Is Maybe the slick production values were kind of shocking to people like you to some of my friends who herein Felicia submarines and in others it I know, but the level of violence at these people. Were exhibiting was not a huge surprise because

seen it before most of Americans had not seen it before, and I think that people don't realize that there's a thread not not just can you which one of very direct organizational thread connecting the individuals in the group from Al Qaeda in Iraq, people? You were fighting in Ramadi that we were going after the flu, no for right on up through the islamic state. These are the same people, some of them so about. We kill their leaders and people step up, but these are groups that have gone to name changes and then you can take it back further and it's not just Al Qaeda in Iraq. A lot of these people are former ballast and iraqi army soldiers officers, people who were regime loyalists, and so I would I know a lot of people who would have this tools like well look. I was against the Iraq WAR George Bush, a war, criminal and so is declining a lot of them? They should all be in jail, but ISIS. This is something different. We really do something about this and they don't realize and in its wonderful

because this is just not. This was not how the narrative was presented and thin I realise these are the same. People doing the same things that we are fighting in the war in the early days, and the people who were actually running that country before we went in, and I think that something that's a connection does does not get made from us people, and I wonder if they really understood that these ISIS P especially after two thousand ten isis. After two thousand ten was almost entirely run by former. Reach Saddam regime loyalists. Ok, it's a these people were running that country before and if you knew that, if you understood that, how do you feel about going I get it. You know from a strategic standpoint of whatever you can have reservations can clear up every evil in the world, but I wonder think a lot of people would may be considered differently if they understood that and yet it our message to get out to people, and I dont know why didn't get out more clearly in during the war

it was good. I guess it was good rebranding right. It's good rebranding. I hadda echelon front. I had I got an offer, to work with a company. They said it what one we do a keynote speech and the the the of the company with some real I didn't recognize it, no as an what what's the company, whatever the name of those brain, Baxter whatever some just did didn't didn't strike me anyway and you know they want to become a new keynote, and you know so my my director operation Jamie's at all. We got this company onto Duquesne, onus it. Ok, let me them. Let me take a look. I miss you. They are, and it was a giant tobacco company in it company that had changed their name whatever five years ago, four years ago and I set out- I'm not doing that and The thing was like yours, good branding, they didn't know who he was, and that's that's who was doing that branding them. I

I know Marine who was influenza, who told me he didn't do it himself, but he knew the people who did. That there were torture rooms they found in that city by the smell for sure, and that in that you would walk into houses that look normally normal neighborhoods and I remember reading this Wonderin major talking about how you would wander through this normal house in you would open up a door into a bedroom. Rod and it was silent the lambs in their whose good doing that branding that's with unknown like who is hiding from people in it. I dont know if its height, I don't know, Maybe they thought it was just too grew something we don't want up put that on him. I dont know why I call on saying the rebranding done by the by the perpetrators themselves, in other words, quote changing from insurgents to Al Qaeda in Iraq to ISIS. Those are those chain is that got made

a long way and is also there are also new groups where a group grown people they take on new members that came from the other group, and so it is this. A group of people with a different name and made a couple different leaders here and there, but was it seem like one of the reasons that people said and you actually you're too, just as medical. You ISIS came out of nowhere. You you just got done saying you know ices has been around for a long time with you in your own use, were telling a story tat. I People were shock, is ices came out of nowhere? Even you jaw. I meant that was the perception that first there that's a perception, but I mean even you just said: ices came out of nowhere. You would literally just said. Ices has in the same group of people and then you you're, making a point that I just came seemed to come out of nowhere. But I'm saying work these these groups, changed their names and when you change your name and they change that look to right. They went to this.

They made a flag, a new flag and they carry a flag and then they put on the all black outfits, which. Well, quite ass, insurgents a lot of times, sometimes whereby wear black a lot of papers wearing you know the the track suit, which was the kind of typical, uniform or dish dash or whatever. So There was some branding that happened that I think helped confuse the To the world in cod, That thread subconsciously that they didn't could make a connection that this group, in the same group of people, but even at the time when the war was going on? I I know that back here at home, the reality of think about when I'm sure this is personal for you a little bit, but when

The movie market sniper came out, and you had this huge obscene push from certain quarters of the media and other places that were just just go once hard at Chris Kyle because he called you know you ve met used the word savages and like that, like you calling iraqi savages that doesn't make sense if you have no idea what you guys we're dealing with over there and most people, don't they don't realize, like that. You know the iraqi insurgency Isn't it was not the same as it was not just some resistance group that there were the level of of of obscenity in violence and evil that had taken root over there. That was that it was really unique ways accept that you know it was what you see from ISIS: only they didn't cut the slip videos year for everybody and and A point I mean cursing I call on the enemy in Iraq savages was now

just Chris Kyle. That was me. That was everyone in task. You two bruise that was many of the people over there and your eye I've gone back and forth with people on this, and one of the things that I've said is when some would say isn't it dehumanizing to label the enemy in this way and I said, we didn't need to dehumanizing as an enemy. They dehumanized themselves, that's what they did the thing actions that they took were were beyond comprehension beyond and you just before. Just before I showed up in Romania, there was a guy, that had been helping the coalition and he was working with. I think he was right. In closely with the state You know that was there before us, but it might have been one of the one of the adjacent units, but These are just found this out and they they they skin the guy alive right

In Europe, one in there and you're thinking yourself, ok, this is who were to dealing with these Are these aren't humans? These are not humans. You don't skin someone alive. If you freak in human being? That's now, would you do and we knew out of the gate. That's browsing are in briefing to remedy hears. For four years, you're gonna be deal with and knowing that you know, I think, maybe you go into a fight, go into a war, and you know somewhere in your mind, that you know your soldier soldiers get shot, be catching a k round. You get blown up by an I d, whatever I remember reading. I think we ve told the story in extreme ownership. One of times were him and another guy think just of marine. They ended up, get separated area for once near the big issues. It is our duty guy, yeah yeah, that's what it was, and I you get separated things happen this place. Where you know you can come to handle catch her naked around where, if you get wounded

and they get their hands on you alive, suffering is going to be limited by their creativity and that's it you and that's all These are the kind of people that Europe that you doing and then the thing you have to remember is that their creativity, as I'm sure we'll get into it. It's not there on the spot, creativity, it's it's creativity, that's decades of experience. But how to torture human beings to death hum in two thousand eight there's. This jihadi message board got shut down like later that year, but it was kind of the most popular one. At the time and after the amber awakening, there was a that's all we're talking about read that the people of Anwar were traitors apostates for soon also this is it. This is a message. On the internet. Is that you would go on and read what these yonder Savages were saying they would talk to each other, some of whom were just support. Others from around the world, others Mina supposedly were over there,

but these raw people who were on that side- and they were talking about it in that manner- and there was this one discussion about what had happened and amber after remedy had fallen off from their perspective, fallen you know, people are complaining about people and embark on this in one guy steps in and says: don't worry you know? Yes, we ve lost this, but we ve got long time horizon and there's nothing to worry. About as long as leader Abu Omar, bag. Daddy is here with us to lead us. Abu Omar. Al bag, daddy died in two thousand ten. We took out most leadership if I assign he was replaced by a background.

I, the leader of ice, is that everybody knows who went up the steps of that mosque and most schooling, you know announce the Islamic there's a direct line of succession going back there and you can take him from from Abu Omar. You go directly back to our county. You know these are the same people in two thousand, for you know. You know stuff that I didn't know until maybe a handful years ago that in two thousand forced the stuff that they were finding kaluza right, where they would go into these torture rooms and fine people chain to the wall with their legs chopped off that had happened while they were still alive. You know best people mutilated and beaten to death. That's not even worth mentioning! That's just everywhere. People who are just or who are found alive, just incoherent from torture and our vacation and who are booby trapped. You now to blow up if anybody comes and tries to help them and none of that kind of stuff, All in all. I heard coming out of specially first Felicia

watch in most of our news media is that we, into hard, and you know Madison the rest of the Marines bit down on their own Peace is a little bit too too hard and went in there and towards the city up and killed a bunch of civilians. That's the narrow! They got really was yes, that's interesting and you know I think there was only, unlike maybe the last handful years that I've been in so who's in charge of Al Qaeda in Iraq at that time that sarcastically these are the people write. These are the insurgents and they're doing all the things that you know that that now today, when you know it's ISIS, we say this is something different. We have no choice but to act, and I and you can trace that directly back who were who were people who ran? You know people who write four ISIS who ran the Ministry of Finance, the military ministry, the charity ministry, the interior menace these are all former bath. Is Saddam regime guys Kay the Saddam regime, provided you know most of.

And c o type guys most of the junior officer type guys. You know in their organization. That's who these people were and, like you said, is decades and decades in decades of experience in torture in other the the iraqi insurgency is it's it's very interesting indifferent because you go back and read now: go back and re general like following Jap, the vietnamese general and you know they would talk a lot about like we don't have supply trains, logistics reach. We don't have factories like the state. Does we don't have any of that support structure? They have the ultimate weapon. We need the people right we got to make sure you read my stuff and he says: look at you got to go into somebody's house roll up your bedroll when you're finished and close the door behind you gently when you leave and don't lie to the people, they got to know that we're on their side, you're a cancer, and she was not looking at things like that. You know these were first of all, why don't more foreigners and second of all, they're coming from a place where, if you don't do what they say

apostate anyway, and they fell just of and a lot of homework former regime guys Saddam guys who had been used to four decades ruling that country through pure brutality and terror. And it's not a matter of getting people to believe there that you're on their side and fighting their war? It's that you better be fraid of us and the Americans can protect you and The datum intaglio they brought to these people and whatever some of the Iraqis me I thought of the Americans early on, and maybe they you know there are. There were some who said but he's coming in fighting for Iraq or whatever it is these insurgent groups. They learn pretty quickly. They learn pretty quickly with these people were about, but it by that point you know the day they were cowed into submission for the most part, the the yes and that's. What's that's? What's wrong.

Because, when you're in a struggle for power, the benevolent way is obviously better, but you have to have. The? U have to have benevolent, but once he and you have to have power pricking, but you have to be able to back it up, and then you that the willingness to back it up you have to have the understanding that you back it up in the right way. So it's really fighting that war. Those rules, is really really hard, but the other side that just is rule through fear. That's an easy, that's it that's. How long is it to come up with the the com the operations for that fifteen minutes. How long is it to come up the concept of operations do this in a meaningful way, you get into the ground truth of How does an American differentiate between

when they go into a house between someone, that's from Syria and someone. That's from you know wherever in Iraq, the as they can very, very difficult. Now, once we, work with iraqi troops. They could do it, but when we first got there the first well, the first three years that That's it should show, and we you don't have the capability of going into a building are going into a neighborhood in figuring out o this guy's from Syria, but this guy You know- and I will talk about how long is it how long does it take for you too? How that someone is from this, the north or the south. You know someone says if someone says hey how ya doing today. Take ok you're from Texas School got it. If someone you know comes with a strong new England acts at you. You know that if you ask him what they had for breakfast, you know and they say grits cool. You know they're from the south if they say bacon and eggs. You know that you don't even like you can figure it out. We couldn't do that

now, you're, applying you're force, just cut the blanket applying your force, but at this same time, you're trying not to do that. While the other side's doing, is just just applying for, that's what they're doing and Only mission is to make everyone so fearful they win that war. They win that struggle B because of those reasons and look I believe, wines in the long run. But when you go into that situation. Then you ve got you know, Americans, that are true. To figure out who's who, in their turn, assemble this thing. They're trying to that they're trying to old dollhouse right to turn a builder dollhouse trying to get me little pieces together in its delicate so you're trying to do meet meanwhile

the only thing the other people have to do smash the dollhouse. It's all they need to do is smashing that it's just much easier in the let every single person know that if they so much, pick up a hammer chisel to help you build it than their whole families dead, murdered this I mean it's a group whose goal was chaos and death. You know it was a guy, like you said they don't have to do anything other than make this place impossible to live in You know under the under the idea that that will call the population that would eventually get frustrated in leave and down. I want to talk about the regime a little bit Two because you have a lot of people say: ok, ok, so ISIS and Al Qaeda Iraq, those insurgents. We can connect that threat, fine and yeah. There were some. There are a lot of bad taste in iraqi officers in these groups in every fine, but we created the circumstances for those things to arise.

We went in there and smash the iraqi state and created this chaotic situation and look as will get into and future episodes. I think that, specially at the civilian command level, there were aspects of the planning that were criminals Bid and criminally negligent in a lot of ways. It was not handled well in those early days right, but as far as the idea of going in there like we humans, I won't boy I want it yeah I wanna interjected us. It's really hard to predict what is going to happen and doing something stupid. Making a bad decision is something can happen in war. Nor is so dynamic. Is so if someone makes a bad decision so that the statement that you just made there are some criminal negligence in the planning. Ok, he This is why I will push back against the affected regions.

Slow. But what will here's while pushed back against it? You make it, and then all I didn't come to your side a little bit. You make stick. Ok look. What you do when you make a mistake, you see things are going bad, you say: hey, listen! I pick the wrong strategy. This isn't working. This worm do corrected. Where's I'm concerned when you do that, and you take ownership of of your decision and you recognise that is not working. Are you you got redemption from me and you can with just that's: ok, Would a problem that I ran into his The problem I have where the where, where next gents comes in, is I made this decision it's now. Going well, I'm gonna go going with the same decision on whether to keep pushing in the same direction, keep trying the same strategies and tactics over and over again, even though its not getting better and in fact harder in that direction, so You know I'm sure we'll get into what those decisions were, but

my biggest problem The way things unfolded wasn't that we, as a nation. Our leaders we as a military, not that we made a bad plan. It's that as the plan was executed. Things didn't go the way we fought in cases and that's gonna, have and we got up your political leaped didn't we can expect this. Ok, let's just we can say that we didn't say that Took us too long to figure that out and a bunch of reasons. Behind I mean I mean what worries offer our right now is the way: the military, currently real world war. Two when you went to war guess when you were coming home, but when the war was over, you know four Marine corps and, like a special operations recourse six month, appointments spell operations of forty six. The points again there's variations in the army year,

you know. Sometimes they get stretched out the army. The hour can do some deployments know they'll, go dog of twelve months fourteen months, sixteen months you're right, you're, going home in all of the continuity and all that knowledge look you and I can spend you know two weeks doing to turn over, but at the end of a forty multiform and there's no possible way. I can give you the information that I have my head, so you fresh blood coming in. They get turned over the strategy. They look at the strategy, say: ok, Walter I will try to will do better and they keep trying it so that's where I have a problem with leadership in any. In any situation, there were military people who try to push back, go in there, we're getting block allow at the political level. With rising up absolutely true, absolutely true. There was there absolutely people that and fell on their sword as well to to say: hey we're doing this rock. You know this is This is cross attack worth right. This is about face, as the

bird, colonel, the youngest colonel in the army at the time saying, hey or neither but he was the young. Colonel that had been selected. The colonel and now have been occurring for several years, but for him to say: hey, no change where we're doing us, we're gonna lose and I dropped out of the army, that was it game over he was out of the army after and he was the most the most DEC read. It was one of the most decorated Soldiers officers, military men in the army and he and that's something else we can talk about, because when at the right time to do that when it the right time to two to say you know what I'm not gonna do this anymore? I'm gonna go to the press and talk about this. Because, then you lose all your inputs right causing, gonna be a division commander nest and what you're division commander almost under control- and you know, fifteen ten fifteen thousand troops. In your to controlling

giant area, and you can make some real adjustments To the way you fighting a war. Well guess what he didn't do that and he fell on a sword at the end- lost all his inputs and by the way. I warn you fellows didn't help the war kept going Kept going in and now you know, of course, we look back and we see that we see people like Mcnamara date. They they did, see a they did not see a victory out there. On the horizon- and they bear leave and saw a a an honourable departure like we knew and we kept going and so yeah, there's there. Definitely I'm sure we'll get into that as we as we discuss this subject to talk a little bit more. What we

still in this episode, we will get into that. I want to talk a little bit more about the regime itself. People have an idea that Iraq that under Saddam Hussein was tough place to live. I dont think people, quite you know they think he's a dictator executed. His political opponents Assad's dictator to the so even a bath is dictator very similar. I don't think there that similar. I think that Assad is a dangerous, brutal guy, thanks. Adam was one of the unique characters in the twentyth century. I think he was a psychotic paranoid on the level of somebody like stolen and if you would have had those kind of resources, he would have done the same things that Stalin had done and one of the one of the best windows into that is looking at the way that he let his son's run around that tree cartoonish, cartoonish stereotypes of what, like the gangster bosses, son, Psycho, son, his life,

I can't make it up from a bee movie. You know that kind of thing and arm. Wait. Wait when you hear about somebody like who dey Hussein, making sport out of going up going to weddings of regular people, in deciding that he likes the way the wife looks and having his man escort her the back so that he can do what he's gonna do and the husband shoots himself at the wedding because of the dishonour or what did happen because everybody knows that if you resist your whole families dead and you can't go tell the government he's the he said, I'm son, but he knows what he's doing. Everybody knows that this is an accepted kind of known part of that society, well, there's nobody to appeal to you

It gives you some puppies some bit of a window into what that regime was really like. Com, then who day was so bad that He basically worked himself out of a job because with the older son he was so so, absolutely reprehensible in his activities. Yeah, that's an activity like you, kind of food out there like This has happened this one time, not that I was like what he did. Yes go to a wedding cake, the bride? take her away. Rape, her. And then you don't walk away and that kind of stuff really wasn't what cost him his job either or his position. What cost him his position was doing that kind of thing to important people. You know.

Married to some of Saddam's closest advisers, daughters and then he beat the hell out of things like that. That's really what you know! What we got him in trouble all the other stuff. Other stuff was par for the course I mean so. The state department just known documented methods of brutality under that regime. Crucifix hammering nails into people's fingers and hands. Amputating is gruesome stuff, but amputating. Genitals in breasts with electric carving knives, this stuff is documented. You know- they move. We ve all heard the rape rooms, that's not made up by George Bush. You now taken people's daughters, wives, children raping them in front of the parent. In family members. You know to get them to talk to get them to confess. So that they would they would be executed. Yeah. We um my deployment to Iraq when we rolled in you know, we were right in Baghdad,

National Airport, that's where we're staying and formerly known as Saddam International Airborne, but there was, a couple of his palaces and you, when you walk from you could go to you gotta rooms, where the stuff to place you know where they had done looks hanging from the ceilings the drainage holes in the bottom. You know implements Torture and you D. You get that you walk into one of those rooms of course I mean we're. All would have we all going Our excited some Did you see the run over it whatever? Whenever castle wasn't no let's go. Look at it. Ok, cool sooner! You go very you walk in there in your ear. You know. You're here for You know obnoxious, gregarious, seal bodies in you, you walk into that room and it is quite an ice or pay,

comfortable with violence by guys that are completely comfortable with violence and death in the whole nine yards and you walk in there and you're like all right. This is one of the ones I like sickening use on. Some of my liberal friends is what he did at the end of the Gulf WAR. People don't know today, by and by about three to five times the largest oil spill in history was not an accident as he retreating out of Kuwait, he just opened up all the oil pipelines and let it spill out into the Persian Gulf in open. Lee, because he wants to block and amphibious landing, but really just to be an asshole. Something like that. To do something that catastrophically bad out of spite it. It It shines a little more light on you know you can you can kind of apply medium weapons of mass destruction, skies on suicidal right,

I'm sorry if a guy is creating by a factor of three to five. The largest oil spill in human history just add a spite, because he's gonna run out of Kuwait lie all the oil wells on fire, so it was just an environmental disaster with the skies blackened. For God knows how long you know what that guy's gonna. Do you know you don't know what that guy's gonna do that tends to me that little bit, sometimes because that's an unpredictable character, you know I mean not dimensions. So what you could do when people and we can talk about the individual actions, the brutality, the torture? You know when he was worried about the Kurds when he was fighting the Iranians in the late in the late 80s. You know, use chemical weapons to kill thousands and thousands people on population centers. He just dumped chemical weapons. The dumping like cocktails to Europe from what I remember it was like vs, gas, sincere and get like all combined together, hey I'm not really sure what I'm doing. But I know this gonna kill a bunch of people

so yeah that you now and I'm sure this good just ignite, do that. Then the. The masses, the horse to talk The WMD thing, because rode into this thing I can believe we fell for that, like this guy was saying this guy headset, it he's just like we had Intel sources, reliable sources that we're like, oh yeah, he's got his own somewhere His own generals at that's what I'm saying reliable sources that with that said. Yes, he hasn't because you one's neighbours to think you want, everyone? If a dynamic guess, what key did a great job of convincing everybody, including us, and hindsight? Twenty twenty The Bush administration made a big mistake by putting all of their money on that. You shouldn't have do

I concur- has there were when you get in to what was going on in that regime? There were plenty of reasons to go. Take that dude out and dumb- and it was just he was a marking mistake- innovation had done it. They should not just put all their chips on that one thing you know and its unfortunate that they didn't. I think if they hadn't done that than war war itself might have unfolded, although we want to give them liberty to try to win the war, no foreign or five, rather than just sitting back and trying to avoid casualties for awhile because they were worried about losing support once started, become clear that maybe we're not gonna find these things, and I think they didn't know what to do exactly so. There is there is this. This account that I want to read to you actually by a sudden nuclear engineer who was married to a woman from Canada, see only reason he made it out alive

but he was taken prisoner and you might, if I just our reach their account, only because it's pretty telling what what this place was about names, doktor showers, Donnie in nineteen, seventy nine. There was a backlash by the regime in Iraq because of activists in the shia community by the summer, the regime had started large scale. Executions and mass arrests is right when Saddam took over in seventy nine exactly know what this guy's about. Yet right. Voice my concern about human rights and atomic energy meetings I knew I was very crucial to their atomic energy programme. I thought they would not arrest me for voicing my concern. I want Don T know what I said I was wrong a little earlier. The regime had arrested and executed. One of my cousins, Allah showers, Donny. He was on. His honeymoon had only been married for fourteen days He was not associated with any party, he was

I stood in the street and taken away from his wife and sister and his wife and sister were brought to the torture chamber to see him they had given him a hideous torture. They had filled him with gas through his wrecked then beaten him. They threatened his young wife in front of him and then they begged his head into the wall so hard the wall was shaking and then they killed him by times, Adam was president and he came to see us and he told us that he was going to redirect us at the Atomic Energy Organisation that we were gone. The work on what he called strategic projects. Until July, one thousand nine hundred and seventy nine. We had been involved in purely peaceful applications of atomic energy. I and my colleague, Dr Dot, Zia Jafar Worse at arms to advisers, we were rescued internationally train scientists. We were also close friends. I discuss this with him. I said If Sweden wants military applications, there's no way. I can continue with this organization at that time. We and take it seriously, because we knew Iraq had limitations.

I assume that would just be thrown out of the organization they can. The Atomic Energy Organization. When I was talking to the board of directors on December. Fourth, one thousand nine hundred and seventy nine they said. Could we have a word with Dr Hussain Hussain, charged on his name as I stepped outside? put handcuffs on me. Shove me into a car and took me to security headquarters in Baghdad at security quarters they took me into the director of security Doktor, Fidel Barrack, who lay whose later executed by Sudan he said that some people who had been arrested and brought to the headquarters had given my name, I denied the involvement political parties. I said I was a practice. Muslim, but that I have never taken part and subversive activities. Then they me too, a man I knew Jawad so baby, a building contractor. He had been so badly tortured. I hardly recognized him. Jawad said I know Doktor Hussein, He comes to the mosque and takes partner religious activities for them. Religious activities meant anti government activities, they

said to me better. Tell us all you'll regret it. Then they took me to the torture chamber in the basement. They blindfolded me and pushed me down the stairs into the chamber. It was a big room, my and were tied behind my back and I was pulled up into the air by my hands after five, It's the pain was so severe in the shoulders that it was unbearable, then they gave me shocks on sensitive parts of my body, but the end The beating you were naked, there are sharks on my genitals and other parts of my body after fifteen minutes, they came to me and said sign. I was in a very cold, sweat they your fate they brought me down, gave me a short rest. I fell asleep for a few minutes, but this when, on day and night day and night, it went on for twenty two days and nights. Four of them did it in shifts by Iraq. Who had a phd in military psychology from Moscow standing there at one point he said: look doctor Hussein I'll, tell you what Europe

problem is you think you're smart enough and we're stupid you may be smart in your own field, but we know what we are doing. Just tell us what you know and get this over. I knew Sudan. He knew me. This could happen to me. I remember once Adam said to me you're a scientist. I am a politician. I will tell you what politics is about I make a decision tell someone else the opposite, then I do. Something was surprises. Even myself, the torture techniques in Baghdad were routine in varied in severity. The elect shocks could be everywhere, but sometimes they would burn people on the generals in go burning until they were completely burned off. They did the same with toes. They sometimes be people with iron on the stomach chest, but with me they were very careful not to leave any sign on me. I saw one man and they had used a hot iron on his stomach. They use drills and made holes in bones, arms and legs. I saw officer the keep Hamid and they,

on his feet and acid there Another torture where they would put sulphuric acid in a tub. They would take him and start by dissolving his hands once the founder of the our party forty one of those ahead cut. You was totally dissolved, barracks to me. Have you heard about for you. This is where we dissolved him. In the final stages of torture. They have a table with an electrical saw. They can see a hand or foot? The majority talk the people who have refused to talk. Optional, Adnan Salmon ahead of the dollar refused to talk. He was brought in. I saw him and by that time They had a lot of confessions by other men who had been tortured. Non. Solomon was a teacher. I not knew he was prepared. He told them my name, is unknown. Solomon, I'm in charge of the dollar party in none of these people are responsible for our activities. These will be My last words to you. You will never

dragged a single word. For me. They brought three doctors and told him and told that if our non died under torture, they would be executed. You, didn't under its utter a single word. Sometimes You would hear the doctors so scared because did not bring him back from unconsciousness. I was in another torture and they could hear everything I was in gray prison. When I heard a non had been executed, he had not died under torture. One prisoner told me he was seventeen, and was the youngest prisoner and so they made him sweep the corridors of the internal security headquarters every morning. At seven o clock he saw the woman from the south, but tattoos. He said a woman from marshes with a girl of ten and a boy of about six. She was carrying a baby in her arms the prisoner told me that, as he was weeping, an officer came and told the woman tell me where your husband is very bad. Things can happen, she said, look, Husband takes great pride in the honor of his woman. If he knew

here he would have turned himself in the officer. Got his pistol and held the daughter up by the aids of her hair and put a bullet into her head. The woman didn't know what was happening. Then he put a bullet into the boys head. The woman was going crazy. He took the youngest boy by the legs is smashed the baby's brain on a wall. You can imagine the woman. The officer told the young prisoner to bring the rubbish trolley and to put the three children in it. On top of the garbage, and ordered the woman to sit on their bodies. He took the trolley out and left it. The officer had got into the habit of getting rid of people who were worthless now. I know that I know that there are questions about the Iraq war, but how we went about it about whether it was a good decision about how things went in the end when we bailed, but.

Killing certain people. Getting rid of certain people is good in itself and there were things going on in that country and people doing them that that the world is a better place for not having them around, and this was a systematic. This was a regime of ISIS. This was if people say what, if ISIS one what if they actually had their state, we know what happened. This is what happened, and I think people really need ass themselves. People can have honesty,

it's about whether it's the role of American, the world or whether it strategically viable or Renaud good for us to intervene in things like this, but you're talking about a level of evil here that had taken possession of a population that is really extraordinary. You know it's not just a dictatorship, it's not just an authoritarian government. This is a level of evil that had did taken to those people in that country by the hair and are you know, however, the thing played out in whatever reasons were given in the press, for why we went over there we tried to get those people out of that situation. Well, yeah. We tried, I think, gum, probably a good place to rap

we can move on from over all the ugliness into some of the actual history here, possibly yeah. Let's wrap this one. If you want to support this podcast then, You can check out or other bar gas minor Jacobin. Gas, Warrior Good Park asked and grounded Podcast Darrell's podcast called martyr made. You can also for this park ass in all those podcast by getting some gear from Jacko Store, yacht com or from origin main dot com. Then, if you were listening to this parliament on the Jackal podcast feed well, Eventually, we will create its own feed and will suffer these two, but look for that. Thanks for listening ass things unravel MRS Jacko endure out.