« Jocko Podcast

271: There Is Evil In The World. Stories of the Horrors of War. "Only Cry for the Living", with Hollie McKay

2021-03-03 | 🔗

0:00:00 - Opening

0:10:24 - Hollie McKay, Only Cry for the Living

2:49:56 - Final Thoughts

3:06:29 - How to stay on THE PATH.

3:27:00 - Closing Gratitude.

Support this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/jocko-podcast/exclusive-content
This is an unofficial transcript meant for reference. Accuracy is not guaranteed.
This is Jacko Podcast number two. Seventy one with ECHO Charles and me Jocker willing good evening this evening. First, they put us in a school and Tal afar and held us for twenty days. They didn't let us eat or drink. Only the children were given a little bread. but we had to go to the bathroom to share it. If they caught a sharing, we were tortured. The children were dying, starving They wouldn't drink the little amount of dirty water. So we found toothpaste and put it in the water to pretend it was milk, so they would drink it and not die, From dehydration.
dulled of emotion by sea recalled everything down to the most minor detail. How were transferred to Mozilla rule in cattle trucks and stashed in a traditional ceremony hall. elderly had to give their children urine to drink, to keep them alive after ISIS cut their only water pipe. How everyone became so sick and malnourished that call so their hair would fall to the floor, but the worst was yet to come. In the middle of the night, the ISIS men were coming in and yelling to know who is still a virgin but seem a whispered and from the age of eight, they were taking girls to the market to sell for a cigarette. However, but Sima and several lover: siblings, fought a play.
To avoid being violated. They tried to look like ugly boys by you, a piece of broken plate to shake their heads and dressed in the men's clothes they found hidden away we thought if they mistook us for boys, we would be taken out and killed. Rather than raped she explained, but instead When they knew our trick, the men came in and strip, thus in front of everybody in front everybody. Hundreds. They touched us everywhere. Section abuse does. My father and brother had to watch. And that was the last I saw them. the summit did not shudder when she talked about the abuse. Telling her story, but she was.
foretelling somebody else's story. She. telling the story of so many other women. Perhaps that is how she was able to get through it with strength. By operating herself from the narrative. When, initially snatched guess all was with her six month old Son Bach, tiara five year old, daughter Darin when Khazar I guess all clutched her screaming son but see claimed to be the mother of daring in hopes that the ISIS operatives wouldn't sell her. If it was clear, she was no longer a virgin. This all spoke of her ordeal in a tempered rhythm, Leslie tugging at her dress,.
Glaring at her raw cracked hands first she said she refused to go with the wily. But dragged her by her hair and took her her and back to Europe. To the syrian city of me big near the talk turkish border. They were yanked into a house like that Headquarters where there were already two other yes Edi slaves and a constant ebb of foreign fighters. The one Lee said I must marry him. But I refused so he took my son and I didn't see for two days after that, I begged and cried, he Are the torturing me
said, I had no option but to marry him. Only. It wasn't a real marriage, was no ceremony. There was just rape. I was forced to be a muslim to pray five times a day. The coalition bombs soon started falling on ISIS installations bases and homes, but they also fell on people who were already scared and suffering who had no arms and no choice, but to be there. After goes all was gone. Beseemeth said that she and scores of others, including young therein, We'll wounded in an air strike on the prison no pierced her head
the scheme is only treatment. Was her long, ebony locks getting shaved off. She See no medicine. Slaves were propelled down. Twenty two skewed steps into an underground weapons, storage filled with guns and bombs, which come there? Living quarters For more than a year, we were tortured. there were no toilets. We had to eat sleep I do the necessary all in the same place. kinds of insects and flies wherein there forced us to convert to Islam. We were me to look at be headed bodies through the little window. We didn't know when our time was up how we could think about.
Was whether it was better to live or die. What is a war. It is trying to remember those we treasure who are taken while- the same time trying to let them go. what is war? It is waiting to kill or is waiting to be killed. What is war war is a or inside the war which the world cannot see. sometimes, if you get close enough, you can hear it. It is in inmates
being endlessly beaten, lashed maned with sadistic tools. Then captain small cages. What is war. our human shell, might have made it through the storm in one piece, What is inside will forever be filled with a dull pain of waiting. We for evil to enter the violin. The person they once were one more time. What is war, it is ugly. It is likewise, it is Lee lies. What is war? War is distrust this hosty scepticism. What is war war is a vision of agony that becomes normal, that's what
Where does to people what is war every thing You could imagine, held to be. Only worse. And those are some excerpts from a book called only cry for the living. which, as you can see, is a harrowing book about the absolutely savage reign of terror perpetrated by ISIS. Then I in Syria the book and ask that question over and over again what is war, then that is a. complex question in Iraq,
there's answers from many different angles. and this book doesn't incredible job of giving us Some of those answers the book was written by An australian american journalists by the name of Holly Mackay who spent time on the ground in Iraq enough. understand in Syria has been embedded with australian and american troops sat through Military tribunals and intervene- hundreds of soldiers Civilians and government officials before during and after the horrors of war,. Then it is an honour tonight to have Holly here with us to share some of her experiences.
and some of the things that she learned along the way Holly so much for coming down to join us. Thank you for having me the sum is definitely a very rough subject that you Dover into and that you pursued, and you know I I didn't know you or anything about you really until I started reading through the book. I just basically knew that you are a journalist. But there's some interesting, the pathway you took to get here as a kind of explored that Is interesting in before we jump into the book, I just one gonna get some of your background. You're going to say most books and its true and most books, people at least people books, they say you're not about themselves, but they write about themselves right. If you actually don't spend, while a time writing about yourself from this book. So
a little background before we been about noodles so you were born in Australia, yes, so I was born in North Queensland in Australia and my dad was in the mines we moved around a fair bit and then, when I was very young, I became very heavily involved in in ballet, and so when I was fifteen, I went to a boarding school. It was kind of a fame school In Sydney where we could train full time indifferent of arts, and then we we did sort sort of schooling on the is as well with, We could all wet professionally, and so is. It was just a very interesting ways you to study in and grow up, and I really thought that that was the korean I was going to go into, I was broken, be ballet dancers. Gonna be ballet out. Is a psycho finally sign psychotherapy, psycho innate in up at what able I only same people think it's it was the
s training ground, for what I ended up doing because you you learn to just, to push yourself beyond any kind of boundary that you ever think him ass, just normal. And when you that young you just its normal to be fifteen hours a day in these crazy shoes with bloody feed and being held at and being told. You know you can only eat this this in this, and you have to weigh bias and adjust the so much discipline involved in it, and it really was most amazing training ground. But on top of that, what I did was it really, Call me so much about the world that I wouldn't have known in my australian bubble when you say what you just realized that through ballet there's all these different here, we was our country like I'm ready for me a little New England care. It's ok, all this is the world and its. I you know I learned about civil rights movement through Avenue Daily. Who was this incredible? He's gotta ought century
In New York City and an that's how he had this amazing peace could revelations, I just remember being about sixteen and end is watching it and just they mean economic gospel, music and I learned about is that of whole culture, and we, that was so many parts of it. I think The rolling stones- I was this amazing ballet with that that canadian company had set to the rolling stones, and so I learned about hedonism and all these in a different things in an area that I really didn't know, and it really spots. This insatiable appetite For the world- and that was through the music and they sort of deep Elaine on that- and I really that was what I wanted to pursue- and that sort of why I guess I left I left home very young to go and study. I broke my ankle, so that sort of set back some of the immediate fashionable ideals that I had, and so as soon as a kind of yield, a bit gone to university and up
unity came up to go to New York to I had to go to scholarship. I can finish my degree that, and so I thought you know I'll finish your degree, maybe I'll go back into the odds. It didn't work out that way. I ended up in a journalism career and it was not planned at all, but when you went to New York. Did you go to study dance? Still? No, sir, I was studying at a small university to Stuff Wall Street called pace that was affiliated with my University in Sydney and I was studying It was meteor arts, but I have a specialty kind of in. Writing was what I loved, and I I wasn't sure what direction I was to take that a whether I was going to go back into two, but the ballet failed. So. in New York City, I got a chance to do both, for you said the hubbub of care, activity really and and kind of study, and have a really great time. My ten twenty one in New York them, and so did you get what you end up getting your degree in media.
some production or windows rationalize Asian. You know it's, it's a is a fancy ba, but its specialised in instead of rising in and human rights issues, so I always had that sort of passion of trying to understand the world in a little bit of a deeper lens, I guess At that point, as a what year, did you graduate from college, two thousand and three, and then what you go back to Australia, so So when I was in new york- and I I arrive, and then everybody is talking about these internships and I had no idea What it was in Australia, we just work, you know you, you go to school, you whatever, so they took my internships I want to do and others things. What are they? The sands fascinating and I I went to a bunch of of websites and stumbled across a fox website, and I didn't I didn't even know what of Huxley's was at that time, and it was early digital era, and I told myself to web could just for fun one at school
and so they said aware, building up a digital thing. You know you obviously seem to like that kind of thing. Would you like to do that so I give this ago the sounds great and so I joined the newsroom there and I really I fell in love with storytelling in a different way. So used to doing it through dance through through physically through my body through other and being able to kind of be there, and it was my a literal than what I'd give too, but I really I fell in love with her and being able to ride and this whole new medium was just beginning and I just I really threw myself into it and I loved it and then at the end of it as a set of twenty one and they said was once a year if you'd like to come in and worker full time, and so that sort of made up my mind pretty Clayton. That was a pretty amazing opportunity and the dance Korea might might have to be for another life
So yes away, I was sponsored and they said you would you like to go to allay. and I was I was really in love with you, but I said sure, let's go to allay and let's do this, and so I went to allay- and I guess, by default, in LOS Angeles, there was in the entertainment hub of the world, and so that sort of seems and I had my own column, which again was of a bit of a baptism by fire and was just immediately thrown into this page of of I describe it when I got there Jacko it was the summer of two thousand and seven. Paracelsus, just gotten out of jail and somehow I made for with an assistant of hers and she was living in this beach house down in Malibu, and so every day we go to these parties at Paris's, and it was the pepper Aussies will lining up on the page, and I just remember
this is the biggest circus I've ever seen like this is. This is ridiculous, an end in its say that way for me, and I think, even though I had someone really incredible opportunities and and two to meet really amazing people too, and I dont think I really. At the time you know when you get to sit down for twenty minutes, was Steven Spielberg or something I don't think it really valued, acting as edges, and it was too young to kind of understand. This is pretty cool, but I He's got to meet somebody view for different sorts of I've. I would be I'd be covering, should not trial in content and then next minute, I'd be in a dry Two to Korea recession with the spice Gus Reunion tour is just this real crazy right I'd, be it added ditties PA. And then I would be at some of the cool place and appear to me the funny thing
it was a always followed. I was the outside looking at something I never felt part of it. I just felt Was this, it was a launch pad, but it was this incredible. Stepping stone- and I guess to the ballet. It tell me something really crucial, which was just snuff out the bs and that something that I don't think there's a better Gaining ground for that, then, then, being in the entertainment world, could you to see through people so quickly, and you learn to really navigate this so many layers around these people they have publicist manages this is so many layers and allow- of intimidation, people trying to stop you from running a story, people trying to spend this this way that way, and it really talk from a very young age to be very resilience against that speak. No, that's not that's! Not what I saw. That's not what happened. That's not what the situation is. Why are you doing that?
Thank you. I can imagine that something. That's really served me served me really well, that the name of this always name your column pop tat, my old boss- I don't know where that came from. He just came but that, when data, this is what it's gonna be. Let's do it, did you isn't it as rapporteur aren't you, was to feel, like an outsider. Aren't you supposed to be on our side? Look at him and technically yes, but in the entertainment industry- and this is one thing that always bothered me about it- was that. People were so busy trying to be friends with these people. I couldn't get my head around it as like you, they don't my friend. I don't want to be. That friend have my own friends, and so I can people always ethically assume that you must hear that you must mean wanna, be this friend and everyone's kissing, others ass on a red carpet. Aren't you look great tonight
people get totally sucked into the highly sat down, and that was what one thing that annoying Mary, I remember being, Twenty two in one of those big entertainment shows a producer. It approached me and said we'd love to talk to you about a job in this and that and probably still like us, the money was probably got good, but I said oh no, not interested. Thank you and it was my immediate reaction was. I would just have to sit there and basically be nice to you. The time and that wasn't that was the person. I was I wanted to understand. The real right behind it and it's hard to do that in in Hollywood, with output of being being shunned. I guess- and anyone who does kind of do, that they are shunned. They don't get the excess they want to the places and things- and I think people are really drawn to that wall, because
They want to feel that that being part of something. So at what point did you sort of invasion wearing what you really wanted to do so I was process I started to do a lot more so of investors. it have work, and then I would set of pick up different politics stories. I was away very vested in world affairs in, and there was a great, a foreign correspondent now bureau in spent a lot of time living in Pakistan, and just you know, have incredible store, and he really and I sat with him- and he really gave me that encouragement that I needed- and that was just you just- have to go and do it in a you love to travel. Traveled all these places, and I and I traveled a lot and I'd sort of learn to speak a little bit of arabic. It's gone now, but growing up and learn to speak, and I just had a appetite for understanding, different parts of the world and a kind of growing up. Growing up in the time when
gonna stand in Iraq in a lot of friends of mine, maybe that when my age, what kind of being deployed and so I was really wanted to understand it and then with his name, is dominating. His support was business. You just gotta go into it, and so I just I really just had to put myself out there. I had to be that annoying person to my says I want to do this. I want to do this. I want to do this and luckily I had people in New York that supported me that looked at my work and though we throw her on so many different stories and it's always manage to come back with something and she knows how to investigate. She knows how to work independently. So why not so that but of my my subway into I really reached a point where I knew I had to leave that its tame. It thing them. did you create enemies in the entertainment thinks they are created. Enemies I mean there were certain you know. I definitely had a few run ends and I definitely spoke my mom
And hopefully, more than his eyes like, if you had the attitude to tell the truth and Pierre or just your stories in your like, not not complying with what they want you to do. It seems that it be easy environment to make people mad. Yes, yes, it did, and then too was, if I guess toward the last year or six months, I was doing it. I why I probably looking back and edit checked out a little bit but yeah. You do you create enemies as you go again. I just I think I just slowly was removing myself at that point anyway, So what was the first? Did you get. on assignment to duck your first assignment that started to move you down this path of this going to war. So I was I was in and I have been travelling through the area and I ended up doing some work was, I guess, the map, the Bay one was I was in the Middle EAST during when two thousand and fourteen the war broke out
Gaza, so I was sort of going back and forth between Israel and and Gaza and sort of being able to cover it, because I was there that was kind of capitalism? By what were you doing there? was there. I was vacationing visiting friends in Jordan. I was hanging with Bedouins in a bed, you intend Michel, broken appeasement, apparently no broken and tax back in your news, the stage. Ass- are here's what I wrote some stuff there and then I sort of went back, and I thought this was just and at that time it was also when I said really this barked, I guess in in in the Middle EAST, and I've been cut We closely so following the arab spring, which was all in those years prior to that so I just, I was so a vested in it. I guess, and I are harassed and harassed and then made contacts with two different p.
And fixes on the ground. In a rock and yeah. I went for Takaba ISIS. I guess after that would have been the fall of twenty fourteen, so that was in the very beginning, stages I mean I'm listening here thinking we. Everybody kind of new. What ISIS was it's a very courageous, move to say ass, formerly, go Go find out what these folks are up there and I use the term folks very loosely with them. oh I'm gonna end and I read through the book which I'm going to you, I'm not gonna, do it just because you know whirling and a real option. Having read the whole thing right now, the the book is You know I got the manuscript no in a year ago. Sick, A year ago, something like that, because ended up publishing it uncle publishing, which was all summits when I I
like the first seven pages just said to myself, are you kidding me this thing? This story needs to get out, so with that. I We have to make that caviar, that when I read this thing, it's It seems like it's out: wait where that come from a who's, that character is because I'm not reading the whole thing and the you have at the book to really. To follow your story and it Chronological, you sort of November two thousand fourteen. It ends up one too close to two thousand nineteen. I think but it is chronological, but it's also its aims. Around from location, location story to story, because sometimes your in Baghdad, sometimes Rocca, sometimes your out on the outskirts of Missouri, traveling all these different places, but it's It's way more evident when you read the book the whole book, rather than me just sitting here, reading chunks of it. So that's my caviar
when you are travelling over there just are. You just traveling early travelled on an american passport so I became an american citizen in twenty seventeen, so initially I was a strain on the green caught hold out, and then I got my citizenship and twenty seventeen. And then, when you're travelling into a country. So I was in the military, and so we would have a official Passport, so not a diplomatic passport, which was a black passport but not a regular american passport, which is a maroon passport. We would have blue passports, which said that we're official, I guess, government Americans Is there anything that you have that that gives you some kind of indication as press no journalist suggest regular citizens special, your rolling in there
Supplying you with gear, whose, given you their body armor, whose given you helmets like that's a very very I did. I did have my way we generally, as journalists we'll have outline or I arranged to wherever I'm going. retraining, yeah, yeah penetrating disregard of basic hussies training, described the basic first aid. You just gonna have to do that. A few basic things, Diego button so? My training was really on the ground and the approach I decided to take really early on which I think served me and is probably the approach that I will always take is very under the radar. So I would see people that went in with special in its very difficult with television, because television crews have to go in with cameras and they going lot of security. In the end you become very visible. For me, went in. I would organise to meet with locals wherever it is, I was going, my local fix on a local house.
be staying in and I would just very much go under the writer. to me. That was always the way that I felt that I could get the story and even though people thought all you have to have security, you have to have this. You have to have that. I never felt I need I felt that that would have made me more aware and known presence, which would have been in a model. There is for me, as a writer, I felt that I didn't need a lot of those things, and that was always- and I discussed those things with my with my superiors and ahead of time and again that was always something that they took. I'll enabled me to make those decisions and b that independent. How good was your arabic Ok for a while we have among them in I grew up so where I was going to school was a sort of there was a big lebanese community, their savages savers so interested. I just would have people take man so but
who has worked with the translator, because I couldn't pick up the dialects. I mean the dialects we just so confusing and I do not want to risk ever. I guess getting something that would have been crucial in getting it wrong, yeah. I know that the locals abilities to understand and give you these new wants things. You know the interpreters that we had word yoke is we'd, have we'd, have Americans like seals, that had been trained to speak Arabic, a God some. They do their best. You just do. The baby standing side by side with a native speaker, and you might seal Inter I would say a the local guy said this and then the the then Speakers say: hey here's. What is actually means and there's just a little bit. You're, just not going to catch your she's, not going to happen. So you you definitely take China, China, the difference between in someone that's from New York and someone that's from New Jersey.
There there's people that guy, I guess, maturity that Grass New York Euro and the same thing overseas, and you are correct here's the here's, the weird thing about what you said about security is: a low profile, ninety nine percent of the time is gonna, be better no one's gonna notice, you no one's gonna care. What people freak out about, as there is not one percent of the time and then what you and then you way those out, because it is only if there's only twenty chance of something happening and then you're in a really bad situation, cause you don't have any security, that's horrible When you have security, you increase the chances so much that it's a game this always a gamble, and I always felt very comfortable in this. says and the people that I used locally, that that day of the know how to at least with exit plans and other things like that, and I was had contacts in the EU
in the region and other places that if I was desperate that I could I could turn to. If I, if I needed to how do you go about finding your fixtures, in general, I mean depended a sort of assignment by assignment Botz. I usually went through either other journalists who gave referral so people that they'd watch with all but I knew that believing that without the businesses that use different interpret, is it really really depended on on that? Usually it's always whether mouth I would never does. Pluck somebody a face, fuckin and expect them to be a fixed air. It always be several as of people who could set a vat in and work for them and then do a lot of eleven. My own background digging on them and tat make sure you can never get a ride. They mean is plenty of situations and, unfortunately, which analysts have been sold out and other things, and we still got a lot in Syria with ISIS, but in the in my case I always worked with some really just incredible people
I've got all kinds of scenarios, through my head right now, in fact, get higher. When I look At my life, my whole life in my entire life from the time I was born untilled like two days ago. I always think about all the things that have done when I look back and see man I was to guide Do you do that? I was I was busy, but I thought the things that I did. just in Iraq being rather places in Yemen in Afghanistan and in my twenties, and I just would never do them now. I would never do them now. I looked back and I think what you thinking or oh, I guess when almost in the beginning- and this is where experience comes into your miss me- its night. It's naivete, don't always know what you're getting yourself into and you get out of it and you fine and then I look back on it now and I think, MR stupid? What were you thinking like that was now
the story. Even did you have guessed out of that year, Yeah. As I read your book, I mean that like us. You know there's a lot of you got lucky a lot which is awesome. You know you had. A massive amount occurs goes into these, which is awesome, and then I was. I wanted to ask you that did, you feel d feel looking back like now, like you knew a little naive at the time, and obviously sometimes a little bit of, Now you ve an arrogance is really nice when you look back at it if it went well, which certainly did for you. Awesome are gonna jump into this book. The first boy to introduce himself was a nine year old, named Abdullah
Me with his light eyes gap to smile and spattering freckles across his nose. There was a gentleman to to his demeanor. I wondered how such gentleness could come from a child that had been ripped from his home by war, Abdullah, Does that he was a Muslim from sin jar, sin jaw as they say in Kurdish? He had been Forced to flee to months earlier, when ices invaded his village, he insists don't showing us round the camp attitude agitating like a proud tore guide. He explained the different people who live there and where they were all from, he explained how they had been confronted with the same vicious enemy and how they in different ways: some ice, as we knew Abdul said Some of our neighbours became ISIS too, I did not know, then that such a phrase would be repeated time and time again, as the years went on. I did not. realize, then the importance of that phrase, the class
and all the suit conspiracies. That would come from it. One phrase would come to represent the fissures of a country that I wasn't sure could ever be put back together. Our neighbours became ISIS too, Something that I failed to do, as I put these notes together is: is you throughout the book. You you pick these characters. and you re visit them and I get some of them, but don't get all them, I'm not sure if I get back to Abdulla, but that what you do so, as people hear me sore talk about these different characters. Jet look. The book is four hundred. Fifty pages long and so If people are wondering like, oh, I wonder what happened that care? What happened that character? Many of the characters that you be I'm close with you re It over the years and and, as I said, the length. The book is five years or for four. half year. Something like that. There's a lot mean think about a kid. That's you know tat
years old becomes fourteen, that's a big difference and and obviously there are also our characters that you never see again, and God knows what happens to them Fast forward but here the sword, at the Missouri Damn greeted us warmly push murder began. This I'm giving everyone a background, Apash Margo. What you do, You give all kinds, a nice little history. Lessons in here to the push murder began as something of a mountain militia in the nineteen twenties. When the push for kurdish independence began in recent decades. They faced unrelenting persecution from the back, loyalist and of former iraqi dictator Saddam Hussein, one pair Margaret Fighter told me they don't four from psychological issues pertaining to combat because they have when up around fighting and have developed an early understanding that it is what we have to do.
I'm PTSD was something of a first world phenomena we worked with. kurdish soldier, sometimes in the iraqi Army, and they were just really good and they just will really good. They have that. That's why that's that That's what they do they grow fighting that sort of their thing. It's like when you're in the? U S military and you meet someone, that's from you, know, Wyoming and they grew hunting and living out in the land and they're going to be good soldiers. That's just out if somebody from Alabama that grew up in the woods that they're going to be a good soldier, that's just how it is that's how you feel about the car. That's how I was felt about the current just because they say they don't self from any psychological problems, doesn't mean they done and that's just a very different relationship that they have with it in not just the push megabit in a lot of the are in the Middle EAST and those in the armies, and things is just not something that they acknowledge or really talk about.
yeah and in many ways is something that we haven't talked about up until the the most recent wars. Even though always been there. You continue on here. The push murder soldiers range from around eighteen to more than seventy years old, with many coming out retirement in the quest to defeat ISIS threat. during days of intense conflict, the trash murderer lucky to return to their base for two or three hours of sleep and a quick bite to eat before venturing back to their fighting locus as it should a prominent portion, the fighters are not soldiers, but what they call security advisers who don't take a salary and volunteered simply out of devotion, special forces that have been arranged for these people. They don't register their names and don't sign contracts. They just want to serve in Kurdistan one tat murder soldier explained.
Ices commanders often drug young fighters with special tablets that leave them disoriented and shooting. Why we into the night times they were able to keep going despite being shot several times, taking upwards of twenty bullets before they went down. for those who survive and that's been reference. The ices fighters, when they realise what they ve done. They sometimes regret it. and you say here almost every Kurd wants to Share their history, history of their people, and their oppression, but the string could be weaved through and through was that they did not expect to be granted freedom for nothing. They knew they would have to fight for every fight for every step of the way. the secession of let downs of losses and gains was all part of the rough climb up the role of revolution at the top. They would find their independence. When they referred to their soldiers killed on the battlefield. They sometimes said that they were murdered and sometimes said that they were murdered. I want,
how differently Americans would see wars if the press and the people spoke of our troops in the firing line as having died in a homicide rather than old inaction, and- and now you can reflect on this battle that had taken place, The rain fell harder. The bullets flew wildly into the growing darkness that hit the dead ISIS bodies near by Hungary. Untamed dogs had gouged into the skeletons almost immediately, some had been dead, days so had names and others had been left nameless so Matthew, aided by the creatures howling at the moon, had no faces Sir, you jump right into the stuff with This battle, that's taking place up at the Mozilla, damn your seeing the ices fighters this. A long way from Paris billions Malibu Beach parties- I guess definitely
and when I first went in, I didn't go with the intention of of going to the front lines. I I really went with the intention of trying to understand yes, the human cost of war, and I really just wanted to go and talk to people that live there. I wanted to understand what it was like to to be displaced person, what it was like to to sort of have everything in and then have nothing, and I just and is that of making good connection through through somebody. And then when I went to meet him It was a crazy sorry. He he came pick picked us up. The cargo stuck in the mud and there sort of a lot of fighting going on. We should have had to go to go in a different direction. and we ended up said frontlines that wasn't something at even really planned and I'm sure I bosses would have had a heart attack if I'd said have told them in advance, but Yeah I was a was. It was not very eye opening ends.
even when I I guess the times that I've spent the passionate or with other soldiers iraqi soldiers on the frontline. It's always still being that same thing. For me of wanting to get that human cost So I am much more interested in stories. I guess from my perspective, then than what we call the Bang Bang is what journalists usually all that the sort of the military aspect of it. I want to join and who they were, who their families were? What their motivation for being. There was, as you said, it's you know these people coming out in an volunteering in and then Getting paid and they're bringing their ok forty seven from home and that it really have more beyond that, and I just that to me was fastened Eating what is it is motivating you. What is driving you? What what are you sacrificed, to do this, and do you plan to just keep doing this over and over again, I think for me I was always the question that I was trying to trying to understand or trying to
he's together in my head as I'm sitting here thinking about you on the front lines for the first time, sort of and then going back to the the conversation we had about being naive, and I just I just remembered converse it at first love had this conversation with a bunch of veterans but one that came to my mind was die by the name of dean, lad. Who is a marine and world war? Two who went on the ice and campaign and he was going into terawatt as a marine asthma. platoon commander Accompany Commander. I forget which, but I am either This was an insane operation. They could tell it was gonna, be insane. You know, they're going to storm the beaches where the Japanese had been dug in for three years. He did this over and over again, but I So what did you think anything might happen to you? He said that it's always going to happen. The other guy.
which is what everybody thinks creatures, what everybody figs and that's what I as well, I think you know as well as programme happened somebody else, but not me. I think, just a guess by nature. You know, with a large, analyse whether they have a tremendous years behind them doing this on it's a guess that same notion of in a way not working for the governments were not working for anyone impotent La beyond our organizations and say you sort of have this kind of strange, freedom. No one is telling you what to do. In an me, I guess I really mean it a family to vat in an just yeah. I remember one time being it did you ever go to Totty AIR base. Does that sound of Baghdad, I think I flew through thereby never spend, spend a bit of time aeronauts with the US ease and then a legal basis good Al Assad and on, though, that the marine base there and
It's just a storm. After customs, every five was getting cancelled as I just want to go back to Baghdad. I was trying to get a enemy. With solder, and I would just let's just go to Baghdad and I couldn't couldn't get pact. dad, and so I was literally just calling a cab from totty till I come and get me that I could drive back to my hotel. It meet my fixer in Baghdad Hiram. They also Sang hacking, just crazy immense power really tell the effect of a gag. I can do that and what's interesting going back to the earlier conversation, if you weren't you a convoy back from. air to Baghdad. You would probably be at tat rate or risk much greater risk than if you were in a cab on Orange and White Opel Freak intact. Cab better driving all over the place, and I will do that rock. I remember going through, like all these iranian militia checkpoints I was, would be in these use. Edi cause the baby. Oh my lap, pretending! I was easy enough for this. if over my head,
be in my lap. I think I managed to get through about a hundred of these arrangements. Shia checkpoints- and not one of them- questioned me and I'm over just getting out of that being like had I and I know about other journalist. They I knew a couple of people and they they got busted checkpoints and turn around. oh turned in or whatever it was in the end. For me that was going over the radar I got to where I needed to be. Had I even got the Bee checkpoint permission slips that is supposed to get. I wouldn't I wouldn't have gotten through sometimes you just gotta not play by the rules under the radar more maybe it's not the last one but earlier book, there are some history. Lessons like I said, even though the book as more just interviews with people and and you're actually saying this is a little history met lesson on March, seventeen nineteen eighty eight the morning after Saddam Hussein's Bath Party unleash
the tirade of chemical weapons and killed five thousand iraqi Kurds in the city of holler. But our colleague John Jay Hullabaloo, few brave photojournalist venture into the city to ensure the brutal dictators. Atrocities would be documented and exposed to the world, and you you know interacting with one of em Akron to be shy, we extending his hand nearly twenty. Seven years later, he was working at the memorial site, notices college, a monument and peace museum construction to them three On the anniversary of the attack in two thousand six residents, thousands of residents rioted at the sight protesting what they thought was to be. capitalizing on the tragedy and misusing aid funds destroying many of the archives. The monument was rebuilt into a hub of reflection and solace poised again, the serene Iranians mountainside with several about
in bath party tank sitting idly to one side inside the iconic photographs taken in the pallid after me, of the attacks had been recreated his life size, images and statues, a mother, Watching her dead bite, baby lifeless, children strewn across pavements, inheres ACT talking. We need to remind the new generation about what happened to this town and we need to keep finding them so that it doesn't happen again. times. I can't stop crying every day. I look. Pictures and I am reminded that it is my family in those pictures and quote their story. two deaths of sadness. In the way he shared a story constantly relieving a cursed, reliving, a cursed history. Saddam had ordered the chemical attack amid the IRAN Iraq WAR following Intel reports that Iranians short soldiers had been implant, inside the kurdish city, a crumb still did
seen quite sure how or why his life was spared. Why He was the only survivor within them ox mid area. recalled having instinctively placed his mother's scarf around his mouth for protect The moment something fell wrong. He recalled going up blood into the scarf, which still smelled of his mother, even though she was dead beside him. He recall, The way the vision blew his vision, blurred slowly fading in the blackness. He remembered cars rolling over bodies as other victims. In their last few minutes on earth, vomited chum of Green. Some were visibly burning theirs. and boiling with bubbles. Others live two uncontrollably. recital effect of the lethal chemical cocktail of vehicles
the ex certain taboos and mustard gas. That's a chilling vision, we're gonna help was the sky and now was scarred yeah. I definitely I mean- he's was rowed slots normal, but tat. There was something about him are accomplished, my finger on it, but there was definitely something that that was wasn't quite right forward a little bit, there's a section called the faces of either evil this is November two thousand fourteen, some ices soldiers will tell you that the reason a joint were simple, straightforward open to the web of basic survival money protection, food
times are reasons to pledge allegiance to the terrorist group or complex deep sea in sectarian tribal and historical grievances dating back centuries, so what is? War War is a composite of individual stories and reasons one rarely the same as the other, and I pointed out the introduction that you asked this question over and over again more times than I read. Maybe there first time you asked to ask a question, but. That's what's interesting about that answer composed of visual stories and reasons, and that's what this book is like. Your compiling all these different perspectives that people have what they ve been through and how they ended up here. Did you have that intent? When did this work that you were doing start to formulate in your head as it can what story that you could put together in a book or something I guess it's like most of
spoke was written, handwritten notebooks, so you can imagine how many of those sitting in storage right now by its yeah, I think from part of the first in in twenty fourteen. I was trying to cross together how wanted to weigh these stories and end what how to make the biggest story- and I just I knew that I didn't want to write something that was political policy driven. I just. I didn't feel that that was my job as a journalist. I wasn't here to change laws. I wasn't here too, to become ought to be. we're in court expert in anything. My job was to tell us, That was what I knew and that's what I knew that I could do and so for me, it was only on. Then I started to shape that idea and I didn't quite know how put together and then I guess, around twenty and of twenty five I thought you know. This is the approach I want to take within. I really have to be patient because you gonna have to stick this out
a few more years. This isn't something that you can walk on it finish in the next couple of months, so I had to give myself a good lesson lesson in patience and and just continue to to spend the next few years, just going back and forth, and then spending as much time as I plus. Put on the ground, and then I guess I felt that I had it at Anna could have kept going. That was a thing I just I could have kept that. I could be there now and keep going and still have these incredible stories. But at some point I had to realize I pet you need to stop and that you know there are other other things you need to do. The other places Unifocus, but they're also has to be a beginning and an end to this so yeah. I guess it was sort of twenty nineteen. Then I decided I think I had enough to to put some together, but but have you ever read, Hiroshima. now it's one of the most incredible incredible books about
Japan and Anna was a journalist had gone back and he was telling story these individual stories decades after it and it had such a lasting effect on me growing up, and then that was sort of, I guess one of the biggest motivations in in the style that I took with. It was again that human cost and then just telling telling the very narrative story from his many perspectives as possible and in as much detail as I possibly could it well, and I think that was something I wanted to bring out was it's the small details that make up the big ones, and I I think it's the dirigible stories that tell a big picture, and sometimes we can look at statistics and we can look at it. The things that really distance ass from a conflict, because it's really easy, you that you can say: ok well, two hundred and two people died in that service an attack, but you tell a story of one person who died in that. So
an attack, as probably going to have a much more profound impact on you and that's. What I wanted to drive home was how the individual stories make up the big story. It's the micro in the macro yeah that some very reflective of the way I was what this park asked? Of course, the we cover some big. You know its general patents books. Yes, we do, but the majority of the books that we cover on here are written by a Lance corporal corporal or a private. That's out there in the front lines care in a machine gun, because, once again, when you, when you're talking about the general saw what the general did. There's a there's, an attitude there there's lack of connection in many cases asked What actually is happening on the ground and in what that looks like down there, so yeah you're here
effort to do that absolutely came through in that example of the suicide bombing. I see a statistic of two hundred: two people were killed in a suicide bombing. You can that and you can move on you can you can really TED mine and read, you know, What city was in and call you got the information you can move on. When you read about one of those victims, their family, how it's going to impact them? What markets gonna leave, how they ended up there in the first place? What, then, goals in dreams were like? That's, that's the impact. By the way. It's not always good. This is the case here with Omar. back to the book Omar twenty five year old ISIS fighter from the iraqi Village of door, Allah been. Admitted that during ISIS is first month in Mosul, he'd kill scores of his countrymen, and Car contractors, on their behalf, quote
They came Torreon forced me to protect their lands. Omar said flat, of his ices commanders. His thick mono brow remaining frightened me still a physical manifestation of the emotionless figure before me, after they told me: when are you going Stop protecting your own land. His eyes burning into mine. He went on to describe the words of his superiors. They told me to do or die, and then they killed people in front of me. by his count, he had wrapped up seventy executions in a matter of months. He made. They did, that he killed his victims with rifle shots and was chilling candid about why he did it yeah it's it's fascinating,
there you're certain face to face with these these individuals, and obviously you have a knack for getting people to talk, because the throughout the book you're getting people to explain things to them too. That are either a increase in crime. We painful or be incriminating, like that somehow you're getting these people to talk at some very impressive, you'd be surprised how many people want a platform, get him to talk and they say they want to and often I think, a lot of it came down to. They just hold talks. Anyone for while so they were ready to talk to someone they wanted tell this story and you get them going for a minute and this building after you, because they ve been in love. Whatever the situation is, and people like TAT, In themselves, bacon- and that's what I ve certainly found in issuing a number of different jihadists. They want to talk.
you say here: the facilities director of security noted that most ices fighters were uneducated and easily led down the grizzly path of violent jihad. Some regret acts, and some do not. The guard said to me earlier nonchalantly understand that most are young and have no information. They are impressionable. Listen to the second life Paradise story. Seventy two virgins rivers of wine and staying young forever. That is all they know. and you voters put there, somebody interviews in here with all these differently Oh you ve gotta get the books to read food em, they're powerful, I guess got drawn into this section, a star. Spangled love. The notion giving thanks the Red White Blue was not law lost on the people of Kurdistan, the ball Beagle
old glory and the almighty american dollar working in the kurdish part of Iraq. Most ethnic Kurds did not hide their affection for the. U S, a concept that have become rare any predominantly anti american frogs of the Middle EAST shops peddled american flags? U S military gear was prized in the local spoke glowing. We of the notion of a nation they created with removing Saddam Hussein the dictator, whose heavy hand had so and come down on them. A minority group clustered into the northern region imagined America didn't exist, said accountant curdle, I mean I've got whose home was out fitted with israeli American and Kurdistan flags and who wears a? U S: Army shirt Navy see a watch without Erika the world. Would be run by China or I ran. with Dewey eyes. He turned to me in earnest. America represents freedom. He stressed our dream.
To be eternally allied to America,. You hear a lot about that now that way fascinating gap. When you go, it was this little pocket of. I mean the Kurds in the north. They just they loved, they loved both bushes. They, you know it's just something that they just he american they're the ones to save the day. Dear me, you go in and talk about how you're walking, through the The bizarre has red white blue. Has flags harvest offered their just pro America Pro Freedom, and this is also interesting curve HU as a group, are overwhelmingly muslim, also portrayed themselves as more religiously tower right now. I'm working with Muslims use Edi Christians were all working together said one high, breaking k, orgy official they celebrate occasions together. It's something beautiful. I have friends, pray and friends who don't that's, not my problem.
is their choice. That is how the kurdish people think about religion One early December morning I saw several Kurds busily setting up a debt and decorating Christmas trees. Whether was done in a secular embrace of a foreign religious right or simply to make guess more comfortable was not clear. Why still new to this, a kurdish hotel employ said with a smile bickering. the co worker on how to decorate the tree, but we love it very, tolerant, setting up Christmas trees. be after the two thousand and three Iraq invasion. They did. They had an entire tourism marketing campaign called the other Iraq and that was sort of how they would try to draw people in to come and visit them Missus over Iraq. They call themselves so even though they belong to rot, they tried to be the other. Was there
kind of approach: beautiful fast forward a little bit, somewhere I drifted between displacement camps, the big ones and the small ones, the ones that were new only just established to accommodate this constant swell of newcomers, the ones been here for years as past wars melted into new wars over time, The camps had burdens, in the little towns of their own, complete with banks and bridle stores and markets in places to buy home goods and sweaters? What is war. War brings resiliency is turning what for like a prison into something of a home? What is what War is running it. knowing what is on the other side. It is being welcome in your own home is being Unwelcome away from your home times. War is walking to one moment here and the next, in some no man's land that you could that
never be home. It was drifting place to place both in mind and body Crazy to think these camps, or set up for so long that they become little villages, yeah and and what's really sad, is that so many of them still exist and because I guess it's really out of sight of the main guidelines of the news now they just the resources adjust. There's nothing blacks of Bessie merchandise. there was still in camps just with nothing and then in a new resources. So it's almost even a worse situation for for so many of the display now that I was for them four years ago, you say here in a small camp designated especially for displaced Christians. A group of men looked me in the eyes and said sternly that they do not bother trying to read or watch the news any more, because it
All fraudulent all lies. as your hearing, that does that mean, Think, ok, I've got to tell the truth. I just get him. I can only imagine hearing that from your perspective, yeah yeah for them they just growing so frustrated? I think when you see such strategies happen in the beginning. You really believe that there's no, The wall just gonna sit, there do nothing. I mean this is crazy. Somebody's gonna do something someone's gonna stop this and then you reach a point it's a year in maybe it's eighteen months in when you really sits. It's not it's not that simple, but it's just not the situations, not change and so for them. I think that was just think substance that the news was never gonna help them He was ever gonna help them in so they'd they'd come to that sort of group. Rationale of they mustn't be telling the truth,
because if they were telling the truth- and this wouldn't be happening, if the world what was really happening. It would have been stopped by now. So therefore, it must be. Allies lies how much how much do you think these stories get lost because of the short attention span of the world? I think very last I think I think, very loss, which is why I guess I wanted to try to put the least together is as one cohesive unit. The attention span is is short, but I think it's always been telling foreign stories is all being difficult. I talked to John was covering the walls in the 90s with you know, with Bosnia and other places, and they said the same thing, it would be a princess. Diana did something and it would take the headlines and then some it was sort of you know something would happen if Kim Kardashian breaking the internet, and that would take the headlines, and so I think it's a
the thing where, no matter what error that you are in that forum is, unfortunately, isn't going to always be at the top, but that doesn't mean we don't report on it. That doesn't mean we don't give it resources. That doesn't mean we don't tell a story, And for me that was what I was drawn to was the stories that I felt needed to be told. whether they have an impact on all that that is out of my hands, but Voices deserve to be heard. This is a good said way into the section which is entitled dont. Forget us. Early one morning, I ventured further north to visit a easy decamped stuffed into the wedge. Were Syria, Iraq and Turkey converge as it can
the view over hill tops awash with amidst of equity ere, I ascertained a sense of something: profoundly exhausting. What struck me most was that, unlike their camps, where people animated, we voiced their anger and wailed about the lack of water sharing conspiracy theories about who is really behind ISIS and telling what had happened to them in the flashes after they realize they could no longer stay. The universities were so grieved that they said very little. They did not complain They just looked at me with wide eyes that could bring and even the most stoic of souls they spoke softly repeating that they all they wanted was for their family members to return and for the chance to go home. Every single person had either law Family member to death or disappearance, or had been maimed when ISIS assaulted their village less than a year earlier.
makes sense, for them to complain to complain would be a way. Of their precious energy. I was escorted into a tent- were thin. Woman burrowed herself into the corner. Being silently into a black scarf shoulders, trembling. she was a survivor of sex slavery She was alive, but she was hardly living Morgan. girls and women tiptoed into the tent behind me. Nobody to speak of this ordeal, the notion of being touched. The term sex slave is a controversial one. Many decry that it. should not be used that it was not politically correct, nor accurate and argued Which I hear and understand, but Chosen to use it because it is a term that many of the survivors in families use and because its blunt and embedded in the reality. That is not the reality that we want. Speaking of
rape was taboo and terrifying within the closed and staunchly conservative using community though the silence was slowly shifting, but there is that suffocating space, the women held each other up their embraces reassuring each other that they were now safe, if only for that moment in time and at that moment in time. I understood that valuable thing I own was my ninety nine cent, no book with which could try to capture the plight of these survivors in hopes that somehow they would not tumble from the world's oblivion. It was with my nope, yet I could recall and write things these women taught me what it meant to be. Ordinary what it meant to be brave what it meant to lose everything
and still find the internal spark to go on. we'll get into more of the OECD treatment. I mean a sister. Genocide, slash the ices viewed them as Satan. Worshippers, aunt avalanche happens the other end of the spectrum decision. And stood out to me. one evening I met emerging pop star heavy love for tee.
hooker, in the lounge hook in the lounge of an ups of the upscale Rotunda hotel in reveal. She was dug up to the ninth with long perfect, bleached, hair extensions, fake eyelashes, red lips and strategies to letters that clashed were. There came a flash military pants in and loose fitting white top by recording, Heck, no driven energy, boosting tunes to increase morale and filming mute music videos in the direct line of fire heavily doing what she considered to be her part in the fight stand vehemently with the soldiers and their will to win. Much has been said And speculated about how these personal life- and I were quite sure what to expect. But when I found was a true girls girl underneath the hare brained larger than life persona hell was a self assured young woman who sought only to use were stardom and musical towns for something more than milking the Hollywood machine.
Some say I used to be. I used a push Margaret to further my own fame, but people always complain. She said bluntly in her sharply. Accented english flicking perfectly manicured hand my country, Bleeding and my weapon is my voice, my music, and for those who have had their voices shot. I felt was my only way of bringing their story the story of the kurdish people to the world highly love I love tat. I love she was. She was born in. I ran, came a refugee and in Finland from their got potent music, school of some kind and and then The lower of Hollywood got a hold of her. she says, there's very quickly. I saw the east, so she's ends up in Hollywood. Yes, we always living in Hollywood yeah, giving doing the air
got signed to one of the big labels. I think dream, or one of those big inner produces, had signed her and then you know what happens is the often gonna get set of shelved away, and then She really really old away so up there. labels will sign you in new offer, you a deal and then they actually just don't. You know you never get kind of to actually release, and so once the contractor thou Beacon Kind, a move on. So I think trouble her details. I think she personal brought over here, and it was so starry eyed and then nothing kind of mood and she really slowly underbelly of of water. What Hollywood was yeah. She said, which is that I met some producers and realise that what they were offering an exchange to promote be was a lie. It was all about sex. It was shocking to me. I gave up on most everything she ends up: cotton, cotton, a couple songs over there
She says straight away: I received death threats from radical islamic groups and the mullahs at the MOSS were insisting. I was about influence and should be stoned to death. my life changed. I was the lion girl. I had all these fans and all the success but had can. With this to you, can watch videos on Youtube in I'm definitely met wreck Men checking them out something I'll. Try even echo Charles, would be proud because she has a lot of explosions and she's film, unknown, Ziegler yeah? It literally. I remember she was getting a controversial. Some people agree some people why, by ices is five miles, was coming down. The road and she's filming a music video she and you. This is one of the things I dont really trace, but you traced the rest for three back in visitor. At some point, don't you? Yes, I went back and cause the highways and I really think I really love telling when I met her and so I went back and I was in it,
Her name came up with a friend of mine. There and she'd opened a beauty school Laura base of big beauty, sullen everything's, very penguin and in all the young girls rude go, therefore, there being the equivalent of the problem and get ready in, and I think she'd really settled into that kind of life of of being able to, To be in eight hundred and eight with her people and then to do things in a really different way than she didn't envision, so yeah that was her way of guy just giving back in a new evolution was to be the the the motivation for a lot of their the young girls in the next generation. Therefore, ass those awesome. It's like she, she like who is your people going? you can go back your she straight up, went back to her routes and she lives there now and pretty awesome
then she does have some pumped up videos and she's gorgeous. Murmured fast for up to two thousand sixteen, this brazen attack struck deep. When all was ready for it. There had been no intelligence warnings and ICES suicide bomber detonated checkpoint outside a small town called de BES Near her crook on November third, two thousand fifteen, allowing Three fellow fighters to sneak through the and temporarily commandeer a local government of office. The men, sentenced to hell and died in the attack, but the ICES bomb experts whose handiwork sent them to their maker did not. Just seem Mohammed idea was being held in a high. Security prison near the oil rich city in late January if two thousand sixteen the guards
just seem blindfolded into the room to meet me. I did were terrorists just seem the twenty two years. Old said matter we sitting handcuffed in the small office. Any Urbino headquarters of the other sire It was my duty. There are infidel infidels and there is instruction in the Koran to stop this and to fight all infidels. The kurdish security forces, had nab just seem weeks after the attack that slaughtered fourteen Kurds and left scores more wounded three. Isis fighters had used the checkpoint bombing as a diversion to enter the city. Then briefly hold themselves up in the mayor's office. The stand off ended when they opted to blow their own bodies to bits, as police forces closed in. While that pack served as notice that ISIS was able to strike outside the territory controlled the one
by genes capture would have been devastating by comparison. The current security, fishes told me that you seem had been preparing rigour, powerful truck bomb bound for reveal when he was arrested by intelligence agents. Just seem had cried like baby when he was seized Intelligence officer recalled smugly had cried that, although would be mad at him The authorities relished any opportunity to take away the perceived power vices members to bear these fighters were nothing more than pathetic. Did Newt delusional con artists, the exact of deaths caused by their jack. death and disease caused weather nuclear indirectly remained unclear. He replete repeatedly gloated about conducting operations that killed and harmed scores of peace. including the fighters he outfitted with suicide, vest or put behind the wheels of because rig to explode, proud of his monstrous work and craftsmanship, but
By no means ready to be a martyr himself ass if he would have strapped a vest on of his own. I know thought of killing myself, I'm not convinced to kill myself, he said unapologetically. Actually, I would leave or escape if they gave me this order. I wouldn't exe load myself. That is another level of faith. He was unconvinced by the mullahs, routine, espousing the paradise replete with seventy two virgins that dont men straight or deficit It's our leaders that make decisions. Jazeera, said Scientists are so and to say that there are infidel people incur Cook is not my decision. We are students and we listen to our teachers if somebody I just allegiance to ISIS, they must orders and do whatever orders they get. They have to do it. I asked about the scientists in their theoretical determinations of infidel blood, but he and seemed to know. Jazeera had been taught not
question the scientists, if the scientists were really scientists but- top of ISIS of the ICES hierarchy was Abu baker I'll bug daddy, who Jesse described as a good leader who does a simple soldier and who was just like everyone else. You'd, never That or seen the elusive self professed ISIS colleagues. it's dangerous to meet him. No one can see museum said his eyes, widening in surprise. That even suggests, did such a question. It is prohibited for anybody to see him alter in between bravado and circumspection brought on either remorse or the presence of a watchful jailer jazzy course that he would have to be convinced not to go back to ISIS if he were released before I went to prison, I had no problems killing people now I have a bit of regret that may be people don't deserve to be killed.
How long would you sit in a room with these guys for really depended? I think with him. It was around about an hour to two hours, how would you select who you would you say, hey who do you got yeah? We usually too to the gods about there who was willing to talk. I always but to make it very clear to them. You know I was a journalist and their stories were going to be as as they told them in, and they needed to be. It was difficult because in some cases they haven't been brought to trial. So in when the saying these things be known, you haven't been brought to trial. Yet you are incriminate yourself to a degree, and so I always wanted to be very fair and very clear that the Madonna, less than what you say is gonna be printed, so their willingness was obviously a big factor in in them coming forward in telling the stories,
Here he also said it's better: if they join, we to go to America. We want to spread ideology all over the world. You talk to another so here s a heap gmail by his. he had killed dozens of uninvolved men, women and children. He says that the beginning ice has told us we would all go to Heaven, but now that prison. It means I am going to the fire I'm going to Hell. The indoctrination, was self fulfilling fantasy script was evident, but any, Sign of real remorse was not required.
When you interview these people, or you mention that one guy was line folded. Is he blindfolded during? views worthy. They take it off. The table. For them and they bring the reins. They don't really know. I guess you actually where they really in a specific office. However, they are not yet they later it off. Normally I mean he was he s had chuckles and on, but they they took the buying fought off that we're just look unanimously in his eyes when it's time you other stuff at first it is this. A little bit of a warm up process, and I found in a couple of days, is situations where my fixes would get very angry, and I would have to ask them to leave or you know I was there, perhaps because often in oh, it's it's their relatives. Mary and people have been killed by these people. On night, there hated a strong risk that sometimes I feel that I'm I'm not gonna get a great, the right now, because you know that,
You can feel that animosity and and the reason I'm I'm trying to get them to open up here. So there was that the barrier had to deal with a little bit in the beginning and then I think, as you sort of move into it, you kind of get a you build that report whose agree they realize it. That is to talk to them to have a conversation. It's not it's not my job to I'm not there to interrogate you, I'm not there to a notice to stick to the man, I'm just there to find out the information so once I think they get used to me a little bit and then I got used to them a little bit. Then it can become a little bit more of a cow the station after that, would you compare your hauling the doctors right like a surgeon, some like this and they gonna cut somebody open, compartmentalize, yeah like for a normal person. They be like. I don't know if I can cut this person open, but then, if your doctor, after wild becomes less of all Putting this person open more like this is like it like, a specimen that I have to like work on Kenneth.
yeah, I think I mean There- is there are seven degrees of either you have to come. Compartmentalize, I think for me, I am always very cautious of not wanting to do that too much, because I think might mean what I'm trying to do is to to really bring a different level of understanding on all sides of it, and I don't want to be too distant. So it's a fine. Hence it sometimes you know, sometimes I make it better than others, but yeah it's really. It's just listening. Often it's just listening. That's what it comes down to seems like after wildest, like all these stores, my pet germ, you yeah, yeah, yeah I did get to that point a little bit, but I'd set boundaries and myself to recognise that. I think- and I did get to that point When you say set boundaries for yourself
yes M analogue is, alas, TAT could use about grew so I had. I have certain markets. I knew from myself really way, especially because I was in a spending so much time in the stories would just get heavier and heavier and heavier, and I would just be living in china- be living on a flaw somewhere and I didn't have a team I didn't. I didn't have to all around me beyond mean oh my fixes and who I was very close to, but I It just knew that I wouldn't be able to do my work effectively if something arose, hearing things that were really tragic or something tragic had happened, and I didn't feel anything and And I think that moment didn't really come for me during this particular book. I had a couple of moments where I just I felt very broken a little bit because I felt so helpless and that happened during that, but I still managed to feel your every
fact me and I wanted it to affect me to a degree and then, when I realize I really need to take a break was was sort of it is after and I was in. I was in Africa in EAST Africa and. I didn't get a woman from the Congo who had how you cannot sexual violence and she'd had these babies out of rape and would just what she went through so horrific and should be shunned by her community and she was running and she was just the most strong ordinary woman and she was so enables Nancy and she was so strong and amazing, and I just sitting at with one slash two hours in with these babies and having that feeling of? Oh, my god, I don't. I don't even feel this. I don't. I don't feel anything right now and that really bothered me that I didn't feel anything and so off to that trip. I I went home and I I didn't go anywhere. I don't think for about six or seven months, because I just felt that yes, I got to that point of just not reacting. That was not the point that I wanted to get to Annette
and you just have to take a break in that set, but I think during the process of this book- and I talk about a logo in the book, but is often as a as a writer. I think it's an advantage because you telling lorries, and so it's almost cathartic. So people are telling you a terrible thing then you have a way to release it out of your body, whereas I know a lot of my colleagues who have photographers a video gryphus is having combat. I think that they suffer more. To be honest, and I've heard this rather journalists, because be the not getting that same release that I get as a Russia in May or may not be true of that sort. Experience with that. But I know- and I took the book- and it's not always the most obvious things that I use the word Cuba is not always in of digging up the mass. Graves are seeing somebody be killed,
in the horrific things, but for me they want the things that mean ocean. Me, the things were, then there's one that that really sticks out for me, and that was in. in Singapore, in the city and it is being completely destroyed, and a few of these very poor people had moved back to live in these houses where there was no What I know electricity there was nothing and because they couldn't afford livid camps even- and so I remember being there one day there was a young father and he had to young children, and he was just living in these old bombed outhouse, even though there was nothing in there and he said that he they raise eighty, and he said that his wife had been taken, that the children's mother and that the captain had called him and said You give me x amount of dollars. It was several thousand dollars, then I will tell her so this poor guy for months walked around and around the village
and everybody was trying to give him money any selling his furniture and and in doing he finally comes up with the money and then he calls that the captor and says hey. I've got the money and he says all the prices doubled and at that point the man just gave up. He just gave every side. I don't have that. No one else is going to give me any more, and so he setting out these kids- and I just- and that was the story that really really cracks me, because I felt so helpless and I thought I can't even give you money, because I would be labelled as a tear. You know giving my financing a terrorist regime, if I did that, because they're paying ices to get their women back but but to him that was that was here. Wife, that was these children's mother and just the fact that she's probably not even alive now, because he just could not come up with that money and aid didn't have the resources to do that, and we should have a such hopeless failing and I I couldn't help it ends.
Dear, that was the moment for me that I was like this is. This is just insanity. This is ridiculous, and, and there's no reason that this should be happening. A vagrant you talk about the fact that right the stories, is an outlet in and something that I talk about with them, even with from a leadership perspective. One of talk, the leaders about how to make decisions. I say: look when you write something down, you are detaching from its. early on a piece of paper outside of your head now and now, You can assess it from a different perspective, so I think I totally agree that writing is therapeutic because you get it out of your system, and now you can see it on the page and you can relate it from a different from a different perspective. You know it
and it's weird. You also talked about the you know at a point where you were in Africa in your interviewing this woman and she's been through this absolutely. imaginable, horror and she's, pressing on by the way and she's carrying? Fourth, any and you feel like empty and that's you. Described the universities at many points at many points. of being in that zone where they just have no more emotions left because they have just garden. should every single turn and never see them, On point there, in their time, mealy stories and pictures of these Edi babies that moving band- and I just I lost it and. you never want to leave, you know, especially the journalist you, you never want to cry. You never want to break down, and I just I I broke down, and I was just bowling:
room- and I just remember- I looked up and if somebody was hanging meet issue, liberal men in the room is eighty men and with one of their religious leaders. I just looked at every one of those faces and I thought and even one of them is looked at me- and he said we just don't react anymore, and I just thought this issue says it's such a it's a place beyond a place that I can. thank goodness, can never imagined getting too or hopefully never would but the depths of what they endured, the than thousands of people from the community that have been taken and and It was so hard to even now to wrap my head around, but for them it was just. There will be
the point of even reacting to any of it any more than they would just so lost, and so Sir broken vital that I just nothing was triggering them anymore, and so here was I failing terribly unprofessional and crying, but I just like I couldn't. I just couldn't stop, and it was just that was below the alleged hummer really done that, but that was that was just a moment for me of relay Seeing that here I was feeling terrible and they won't even as upset as I was, and then I had to really realised that they were suffering in a much different way. yeah. You also mentioned in the book that one point you felt like that and then you can, I had to say I'm a volunteer here like I'm here, because I want to be here. I can be said but they can't leave this. Is it for them? Absalom is always a gilt that comes with that, and it still something I grapple with
can go in and I can spend, however long I want to spend their months weeks whatever and you get their stories and you you tell stories and then you have to go home. I got to get on a plane. I haven't can passport Australian, possibly go home and they don't they don't get to go home. They don't get too They don't understand, you know what what that, let that in itself being such a luxury in Owen and there's a gilt that I feel with that. Sometimes just in being and better view it that way, they view it as why we eat oil? What a what a gift it is one would want to even coming and tell this story and and would leave their comfortable home in a families in common and untold was, and then that's how they view, which is lovely by it
me. It was always yes sense of of just feeling a little bit of guilt about it and- and I always tried not to be a vulture I didn't want to go in. Anne and have somebody said of open up and tell this story, and then I and then I take that story, and I leave- and I don't know that's ever- is everything to change anything for them. I don't know, that's ever gonna do any good for them. So yeah, that's something I I sit with What about the Sun Ladys tell us about the sun, lady, Laura Extraordinary, so yeah I heard about them and it is that we want for longer to meet them, and they were these extraordinary is eighty women, most of them from sin, jar and and so when, when I see came in and twenty fourteen, these these duties had to flee up the mountain, because there, in any event to go, was all surrounded the bottom and the tragedy
I was so many of them died on that mountain because they starve to death. It was a middle of summer in Iraq. In the summer is something else, but They started if they went, they were describing in having to throw children off the mountain, because that was gonna be a better way for them to die than to to die of starvation or dehydration and that was really what's but America to to get back involved in Iraq. Was these eighty plant and the fact that of what happened to them was just and there was no was so hard to get aid and in anything to them, so the women. survived that form their own unit, that they called the Sun Ladys the force of the Sun Ladys because they wanted to ethical, multiple reasons, but- wanted to to a fine their women that was still missing and be they wanted to be involved in that in that liberation of getting their towns and villages back, and they would Really really extraordinary women. They also want
vengeance, as you as you. Would you know that, very cool section in there that you talk about, and they also had real Real situation, I mean all the scope of the books. We have a lot of are women in Muzzle being held as slaves? their families are waiting for them. We are waiting for them. The liberation might help bring them home. So they're they're in this situation, they don't just want revenge, they have actual people that they know they're their friends, their relatives that are actual slaves and they can go help and that's what they're trying to do. You say this when you, when you're talking them, but what I also come to learn about the disease was when I said, ices had already taken away their hopes and happiness
they would not allow them to take away. Their sanity to the some Ladys were strong, always sitting up right tears were shed but hastily wiped away. As the morning melted an afternoon ISIS Doktor DVD girls as young as eight trading Let the market for a few dollars. I learned of one young mother, whose pregnant at the time of capture she'd given birth in the back room of Overlords home, but was permitted free feed. Her newborn son debate cried and cried the muslim militant beheaded him. The depth of depravity was hard to swallow. And we all sat unclouded quietude for a small period, important to us to be able to protect dignity and honour a nineteen year old Son Lady named Mesa. Finally said softly shattering the wincing silence. My family is very proud. They encourage
to join on very proud to protect. My people. after all, that has happened to us use eighties. We are no longer afraid and as brave and stoic as somebody seem to me, there was one thing that did frighten them: the notion that use Edi boys who had been kidnapped, MT sin, jar and presume We drugged and brainwashed by ISIS were now fighting their mothers and sisters under the black, of ISIS. We, I'll. Have terrorists uzis, something that never used to be. So you know we hear about child soldiers throughout history, but this idea of what we happened where they would capture these use, Edi kids, that are seven eight nine ten years old.
and brain wash them and abuse them. and turn them into extremists. Isis, terror, kids,. And that still is still really it's still a really big problem for them. Even even I guess, given the lack of resources, so a lot of them. The boys that are coming back, stole Esto, very radicalized and in many ways- and I remember, being in a refugee camp Displacement- camp fees eighties. Once in hearing this horrific story about how one of their must have improbably sixty six, seventy years old and he'd been rescued and brought back and trying to buy had his baby sister said miss his name in the book.
Back to the book one, blazing summer afternoon, I traveled a bumpy wrote a couple hours north to the office of kidnapped affairs it was perhaps one of the saddest structures I ever entered, not because the building itself painted a bright, sunny, yellow and standing indomitable in Of a city sprawling, but rather because of what it represented office had been established with support from the K orgy, Prime Minister, after the ISIS eruption of two thousand fourteen find to help find thousands, have gone missing. I would visit it offers many times in the months to come and every time it would get sadder. You're talking to one of the individuals, their Zena, Z explained that it was her neighbours, muslim families that had lived side by side with four generations who ended up turning on them, one more and she said our neighbours came for us Zena who was for
two years old had spent. more than a year as an ISIS sex slave. When ices came, they said they didn't want to fight us. They told us to give them their weapons are weapons. She You're telling me her story all for again, but this time face to face, were felt cruder and more inescapable. We gave them everything we had These were muslim neighbours, but so many of them had become ISIS and we didn't know Zena Wit, winced ass. She recollected the day. Isis assaulted her village at the foot of Nelson jar, the elderly, you could not run faster far enough for some summary executed, men and women separated with older, and dragged off to mosques to be killed. the females, including girls as young as eight were loaded onto cars and trucks him on four Mosul, It took me my sister my brother's wife and my little sister for thirteen
As we are putting a school, we didn't know what would happen there were about fifty people. In children, squashed into a room there. No water for us to wash ourselves. The children were sick, Zena I too or captors telling them that she was married, hoping somehow it might spare her from their evil intentions that somehow it would save her from getting robbed the one thing she could never get back her captors. However, were undeterred. She and dozens of others were too to a heavily guarded building in the ices controls. I rack city of tallow. Far you see girls under the age of fourteen, were waste away and sold at auctions. The remaining women were handed off to ISIS fighters and told they were henceforth forth their property. We have Grab Dana and Carter off to into a storm fear paralyzed her from head to do. in its official propaganda materials ice. Justified killing, raping and enslaving anxieties, calling
devil worshippers and linking them to their mandate to reinstate Institute reinstituted slavery,. Raping them. Those unbelievers had become a core tenant. of their theology. Jane is angry encounters through into a prison cell days later she was transferred to another fits facility and tallow foreign forced to convert to Islam under the threat of death. Zeb had already witnessed a dozen fellow you see these being executed in cold blood as punishment for their escape attempts. She was now die, but she was not ready to give up on finding a freedom zenith. Her another use, Edi woman, we're and to live with a jihadist in the ICES Stronghold of Missouri rule. He took me to this
place they were flats, small tourists flats. It was a tourist community. Then he raped me. for the next five Monseigneur remained inside Musil and was handed off to another militant who locked. In a small room, this is how the game Was played. Rape had always been a weapon of war that thrived on silence, but the Azeri community was bravely and gradually changing that notion. They were collectively bucking mortification and the fright and all the repercussions that came with it to speak out and tell the world that they would not be muted
It's a tough situations in a meeting with a shrug, but I am still here and I mean I'm skipping giant chunks of the book as I'm going through different details and arm evil. I think I rise a fair bit in the book about about sexual violence because I think it something that doesn't it's very uncomfortable spoke about and something that even now, I sing this fund is not no ice, is fine as being held accountable fall for that,
and they're still this mentality of these terrorist tuna killing people. So what do we care about that far and I think. We need to start shifting that perspective. They then they need to be tried for those crimes is as just as important as every other perfect crime that they have committed, because that something then the change, and I think for so long. I mean this it s really officially became illegal in ninety eight to sexual violence in wartime, it's something is still relatively new and I think there's a lot
Work that needs to be done in that topic in inner within the international community that needs to be looked at and how can that be said are brought to justice. Otherwise, you do have that impunity. That's gonna continue and what so many of these women go through gone through and in so many different complex. I think it really deserves a lot more attention than than what it gets but its uncomfortable to uncomfortable. To talk about. Fast forward a little bit here, the collusion The city is damage, but nothing like the other cities where ices has been dislodged explained in Iraqi. I tell Intelligent officially worked closely on the polluter campaign. This is a well planned operation, led by I racks golden d in the golden division was I racks special for special operations forces it ultimately, been created by
Wes led coalition forces after the two thousand and three invasion and had received I'm, not training. This is a local talking about the push through the city- and he said if the decision was mine, I would have made us Matthew for every fighter in the battle against terrorism,. those heroes are examples of courage when, when faced with Danish, is awesome for me to it's awesome. It was awesome for me to watch because of all this stuff was taken place. You know how to say I retired in twenty ten, but we worked with the Iraqis a lot of times. There the soldiers. They weren't very determined, and it was they would they would They have a lot of hard times sticking to the fight, and we entire battalion one time leave the battlefield
and so that was not a great, that's, not a great look right, and so, when I started to report back from my friends that were in Missouri. The Iraqis in the Iraqis were fighting. They were fighting not just in Missouri button remedy influenza, the Iraq. were fighting and it was. It was so that's kind of I mentioned exile. I had worked with some of the true that trained up the Iraq, special forces, the Erika, special special operations forces and they did take the lead and it was awesome to see their courage and that they were going in. They were finally took massive casualties in Missouri. They took massive casualties, might friend told me that in the first few days they thought themselves. We not end there keys might run out of troops because they making so many calories. I can tell you when we were in Romania in two thousand six. They would
taken that many casualties, because they would have continued to fight. They would run away, and so here this they were fighting for a cause that they believed in, and it was awesome to see that taking place really noticed, also just in the in between two thousand and fourteen and two thousand and nineteen that trajectory and how much over that time, I guess that they will to win, was really compounded and but yeah by the end of it I mean they. Would they seen some of the most horrific combat that you can begin to. Imagine I mean just the level of what they experienced for those that have gone through it is is really remarkable.
Did you know, I can't there's some of these examples that you give of? HU, this enemy was, I just have to read, em day for three months. They tortured me as your recalled. from where he sat stranded on the syrian side of these shuddered turkish border. After a while, the torture just became routine, he was one the thousands of prisoners arrested by ices for so called crimes like wearing western genes or smoking. A cigarette. but he was also one of a select few who had managed to claw their way out of the terrorist groups dungeons with all his limbs intact, shorter
Yale liberated by opposing forces. Such escaped were considered rare justs. another another one Nostra on other former captive. Ices told us. We will give you safety if you give up your weapons, but they lie to us. They took our weapons, they rested us. Many of knowledge was fellow soldiers. It has since been executed. But many remained incarcerated, there was no rights were to return, is due process trials or even a phone call? He estimated as many as two thousand iraqi armor soldiers had been slain since coming to ices over the past two years. He also estimated that five thousand at that time remained in prison bowels across the country.
The cages were so small knowledge who said that their torsos were marked by the folds of skin and their limbs, tinge blue from the hours of crouching, curled up foetus in the womb. Women arrested by ices typically disappeared behind the prisons. Exteriors health should separately from the men and we're off never seen again. Children are not exempt from the torment either a large number children have been arrested by ices, my friend a member of the syrian activists group rocker, being slaughtered, silently he. explained the most When charges are insulting a law and cooperate with apostates they are being tortured. like men and some of them have died under torture, they torture, children too, mostly flogging, beating on the hands and feet and a logical torture.
I was administered with electric shocks, my bones were broken. I was hung by my feet from the ceiling and beaten with my hands tied behind my back said, Molly known as MID forties, who had been arrested in the early days of the terrorist onslaught on suspect, being an atheist, war on a career and that I would be cut to pieces? You make a note here: you can take a life without killing that's what torture does Between the summer of two thousand fifteen and two thousand, sixteen ISIS had been on especially vicious rampage to compensate for the loss of season soldiers and had taken to drugging those radicalized or for forced into its lair
Ices is using special tablets, the fighters take drugs and they don't know where they are, what they are doing. They are just shooting in fighting one kurdish intelligence official explained they lose their minds. Some can be. twenty times before they go down that all drug was known as cap. The gone is that right, a method and said I mean like variant of the band, Pharmaceutical Fenton Fetnah, following. there was manufactured and copious quantities primarily in Lebanon in neighbouring Syria, where it was the ices, through middlemen,. It removes any barriers you would have the fighting. There is Second, guessing they just go out and kill
it's still a very common battlefield. Drug often comes from Lebanon or Syria, and yet, unfortunately, it suits goes just be analysis. But it's it's a very common becoming a very common drug that a lot of militias and even government soldiers, the sort of being given to two given that sense of invincibility to have them, go out there and end and do whatever their told in, and I think it really a really game prominence under ISIS little kids yeah yeah struggle, a man among the ranks of capture brainwashed and drugs, drugged risk wars of Yosemite boys whose minds had been twisted to turn against their own people. They had been prepared.
Than a training regimes that included islamist indoctrination and weapons instruction. They have been forced into learning the finer points of beheading, forcing coming suicide bombers and into serving as human shields did your perception of evil change. While you were there
I think in the beginning, I perhaps had a little bit more of a black and white perspective on it, which I think you know, especially in the: U S, we tend to sort of think which it is completely Rambo. We tend to always always comes into a religion thing and and that always always is often pay it is the motivating factor and I think what early land, people that were joining ISIS. Really one of five things are one of the top ten things that was motivating them to join, and so I think the complexities for me really RO in that because I suddenly savages see you know, I'm not. Ices is absolutely evil and that that hasn't changed for me, but when I started to see was the complexities of how they got to that point and why they joined and it wasn't so black and white really and that
Geography of them really. Were joining more out of necessity for a while, then a necessarily was some kind of you, no religious extreme, that religious extremism. However, there is a difference between the ones that will coming. Foreigners were coming and they were often a lot more extreme in that respect, What I found for the Iraqis in particular that were joining, One of them is the inner ISIS came in and taken over their town or their religion, and they still needed to feed their family. So we know those kind of complexities grew for me in. It was a lot harder to look at things in in such sort, black and white terms you haven't. You wrote that America definitely misses the point on that alot. There was always I still, I still have conversations with people that will talk to me about or they'll come at me about. You know. We are no reason.
Fighting the Iraqis, Mozart pay We were fighting alongside the Iraqis. There were literally going to the same buildings with us. That's what they were doing that we were. We weren't fighting against the Iraqis. We are fighting against the insurgents that were there same thing with the what you mentioned about. You know coming to feed my family there's plenty of fourteen seventy, nineteen twenty two year old young male Iraqis that wanted money, and how are they gonna get money well There's someone over here. That's gonna pay them fifty dollars, go shoot nor Pga at the coalition forces and that's what they can do and they weren't g ass. They were blue. little homes, just like a little hoodlum in America, that's high, I going to make a living in America in in some crappy city, were you don't have any option is? Oh, I'm gonna be a drug dealer. Aroma be bia banger cause some he's. Gonna pay me, you know to go
carry this from here to there. It's economic decision more than nothing else, and you don't even when they're talking about you know if it's a religion, this thing or can't be I just because we ve got hits the actual. Muslims fighting against Muslims, not like there's, there's it's not about that what the other crazy thing is. You know when you, when you talk to people on you, know, would explain. Well, you know we are working with awe. Sometimes a majority she army and it would be, hard for them. They interact with the tunisian people, have no data, we understand what I'm talking about, and that was a big bab. A heel with ices is either you disbanding entire in other cities were very to spend enough just to them, and yet they still had their weapons and they're out on the street and feeling you know, prosecuted by by the government and so. What are they gonna? Do they gonna band together? There is, same people, it wasn't was, Thank you, I think,
looked at as this group that came out of nowhere and dropped from the sky will know they. They were always there. They just kind of came together at some point when you mentioned bogged down I would beg her bag. Daddy, Albert Daddy, we might ask unit, the UN remedy in two thousand, and six went to go and can capture kill him How to commissioner go capture, kill him and didn't get him she'd be it's actually opening story, leaf, leaf, bad and was brown, forced manner on that operation. They got begun fight, because there was security there, which means he was probably in that vicinity, but you right. What's not these? Aren't they open sky. This was a guy that had been there fought as an insurgent and was on the run and costly trying to maneuver, and so yeah these people didn't drop from the sky and
you know the other crazy thing that you can compare to buy a lot of add situations in the world where what they Is there to be problems? What that, what the insurgents wants to create division right, division They would go in bomb. She mosques just to get there is to lash out at the Sudanese and then the Sunnis, whether they were trying to create a civil war, and it was very varied hard to walked out line and make sure that you are doing this in a proper way and even when we in remedy when got there in two thousand six. I thought we were going to do a big sweep through, like we did like, like the Marines influenza, just go and rubble every building and just run through it, and. Molly key the Prime minister, who is a sheer, knew that if he did that it will, be bad, it would be bad and sir, he said. No one can do that going to do it in a more sparing way.
with minimal force required and that's what we did was still forced required, but it was a lot less kinetic. Then Felicia was so yeah I'll tell you, but All that being said, I I the the evil, that's perpetrated is just absolutely horrific and you captured in the Balkans. What scares me the most about? It is how easily people are swayed towards it doesn't take. support somebody over wine from being a normal person to be. Heading children, which is which is horrific. and you know what I I did one podcast on the on the meal I massacre and was roughly five hundred old men, women and children. No military age, males there at all five hundred murdered raped, mutilated
and the reading the interviews with the guys that perpetrated this and you re there our grounds and you read where they came from and you read they did you can't it's We have to be on the lookout for this kind of stuff, because these as committed pain. Atrocities. equivalent of ices atrocities and they were Americans that had cross over the lot and I really think you know- and this is something I found in Afghanistan in in Syria and Iraq, and a lot of other places that we once a week You just don't give enough attention to, and that is government. Corrupt and how much of these things are a symptom of that aid You have to pay someone every time. You gonna go through a check point in us, so that some. Policeman combined his pocket, if you have to, if you see you'll, leave
is rolling around within the day in these fancy cause and big houses and Rolex as an end in unit in you can't get by Being in the street and still not getting, any services than at some points. Gonna make you angry and when you're angry enough. I also think it's a big factor for for joining a lot of these groups. serve rise up against their own governments, and I think it's something that it. When I talk to officials about they, often too quick to throw a hands, we can't do anything about that. That's just a a systemic problem, ok but you're always gonna be dealing with terrorism as a systemic problem from that problem, because corruption is just huge driver of it in every way, shape or form, and I just think it something that gets barely any attention when it such a big reason why these groups exist and continue to exist and will continue to exist
Yeah you have that we have that little bit of anger in the back your mind that you're being oppressed, and then someone comes along and says: hey, you can fight that oppression with us. I mean, let's do this now Transport a little bit. What does war look like? It is just blister buildings and empty brass casings and displacement camps. War looks like wounds, and soldiers who don't resemble fierce fighters, but our men in Unfathomable pain orders belong to someone. They are met child someone created them and brought them into the world. Only the world to rip them apart and for what was it worth it it was always the question in my mind, but ever the heart to ask. Soldiers and medical staff. You go into a into a hospital soldier
local staff, faced a fight of a different and no money, no medicine to treat almost nine thousand five hundred that have been seriously wounded. The tiny hospital, if one could even call it that had no MRI equipment or see tee scanners. It reminded me of poor clinics of a soviet time in place. There were thousands of open unresolved case files. Every soldiers yon faces old faces and with body parts gone gone came for our wine, their predicament and pain, to reconstruct the. Those two, their bodies, I feverishly jotted down. All I could in my fraying notebook and then you go through just talking soldiers and. There there horrific wounds that there you know Parliament Ishmael.
Ben defusing a roadside bomb for touch murder on Christmas Eve in two thousand fourteen, when exploded is two comrades died, much of his body was burned in his thigh. Skin have been reduced to ashes. car one Saeed thirty, seven years old, proud, dressed in his soldiers, uniform he's one of the victims of the ICES Chemical attack. Tighter murder, forty two years old twenty five year. push murder servicemen, em by an icy vehicle around Pick a machine gun cleaved below his left ear and lost few millimetres from the top desk in his back around Main their infected flamed his hand, we're not his head. Ached persistently. Bizarre hussein. Thirty two year old. been working on the front lines struck by a snipers boy,
broad daylight reduced from a strong able bodied man to an almost infantile physical and mental state. Who sang could no longer control is legs, nor could he control his head and I movements occasionally. He could speak slowly other times his eye. Just swelled with confused tears ass, the words would not come out. These men had been robbed of bones and body parts that cannot grow back. Some had lost their minds, but none had lost their self respect. They were heroes who did not look like conventional heroes, but constitute,
What the Hollywood depiction of heroes should have been, and once again to your earlier point, Holly when you read forty were wounded or twelve were wounded or seven were wounded, or a thousand or wounded You didn't, I I just breezed through those. I didn't go into the detail that you go into some of the backstory. But every one of those little statistics is a person come back to tell afar. Here's a tactic when the people came with people from town heard that her cook had been taken over by ISIS. Many came out
the streets to celebrate. So this is what we're talking about. You got people that you got the sheer power and you not ISIS taking over crook, and now the soonest come out the outlet celebrate and then what happens with all the families out mistreat. Ices members then executed their scheme and had the trucks ready and filled them with young boys and import them to the phone lines. Ices is used all sorts of tactics and hewn human shields many times before. Ices was using the young boys for three main functions, functions on their fateful front line as direct fighters as human shields and as suicide bombers. One soldiers showed me a video of the remnants of a cauterized truck and told me. The three inside were just kids taken from the telephone streets just a day earlier.
What is war war is the reason you wake up. There is no life outside of the conflict, the you eat and brief when you're in it it is impossible to have a life outside or even two. If you attempt the ritual, stick movements of daily life. The soldiers I met may have had their families, but war always came first. It was not a choice. They had no option but to live and breathe. It. It all abandon their studies in order. their livestock were quit their jobs to defend their people for a paltry pay echo paycheck. That often did not come on time. If at all, there is no time for anything but war. How often are you going in and out of country during this time
Alice counter they manage trips. Would you would you normally stay for months, yet very some points that some points, You're not going into a trip for a few weeks are the points I would go in and end up doing at her for a few months ages, I often laughed at very open, ended depending on getting what I needed so I have a lot of going in and now and then I ll go to other countries and between at all, so I was going to cover other complex kind of at the same time, and then I would just go back. Spend a chunk of time in a back in the? U S and and then go back and at the time it was sort of just whatever I could get that I felt I needed to to go back far and then it was all just very em as a very arbitrariness too, to how long I for aid to be, therefore, is there. Any draw is Ernie of
her work driving. This is their stories that you or anything like that for me, an automatic nothing's sort of pragmatic. In that sense, it was more yet was modest, trying to take developing as it as it needed to be. I guess in that very organic sense We ve talked about the Sun Ladys we ve talked about some. I think we ve talked about some of the other Pesh murder females. There are females on the other side, as well as of the caliphate. I got fifteen years, one plump, Fifty four year old woman said flopping onto the office couch. For being an ISIS terrorist. I why to be a suicide bomber. You refer to this female as chaos. Kay I wanted to tell a story in the jagged time line a biography bound by battles. She was the daughter of an Arab
there and a kurdish mother. She grew up seeking your grandfather's languish. Language of Turkmen. She ended in ISIS, after her marriage fell apart, I wondered divorce. I was very poor. I have Sophronia and was just diagnosed with What cancer and my only daughter wasn't treating me. Well, I was borrowing money from people for the treatment. Chaos lamented eyes welling, but then I grew desperate in the you're days after Mosul. I was snatched o after most was snatched by ices in June. Two thousand fourteen with a terrorist group was quickly cap. territory across Iraq. She detail situation to a cab driver named MA mood? in my home city of Kerr Kook. Here for a solution. He was ISIS and said. If I join, they would treat me well and pay me. I said I would join on one condition that they. Gimme, a suicide bomber, get me out of my misery. The
thing I was seeking- was to be bombed and die. So again, you are pointing out. who becomes ices, and why and you go here. Rehab have someone, that's gets. A frantic has all these problems in their life and and here you see the same thing in courts in America right you take someone, that's been abuse, you take someone that's down on their luck and that statue colts actually go after they go after people. That for the most part in this the classic situation, psychological issues divorced. Being treated bad by her daughter there, you go see you in me when I was sitting with her and she said: oh vacillating, between this laughing and crying and it was all, was
I was all, but I talked in links with one of the guy. That was in the room of the time when she was telling me a story, and you know what did she sort of painting itself to be this very innocent person? But it's two sides to the story and the other side being that she was was really evil and she was one of the people that was was taking these eighty women and helping facilitate them to be sold and invading them and things. So you know it's a very complicated situation in that. Colonel more one saw breathed the use Edi passionate but recalled that in March, two thousand seventeen disillusioned amiss economic moving from females. This is too westerners amongst the ranks. A disillusioned American surrendered himself to the patch murder. He begged not to shoot him that fighter turned out
be twenty six year old, Mohammed Jamal Greece from Virginia, whose later deport Virginias Eastern District for indictment, a twenty year twenty year jail sentence handed down October. Twenty seventeen awaited him. And you go through some of these other westerners may females common in from first world. countries coming in from America coming in from parts of Europe to go. Giving up is crazy, crazy era. Their equipment campaign for foreigners was pretty extensive. moving forward in the book. All tools in the war against ISIS had eventually pointed to Muzzle here's the eye. Bread and butter. The head of the snake.
I learned that many most module civilians, innocent souls who had managed to survive over three years of ISIS occupation, were slaughtered in retaliation as iraqi forces surrounded the city to have made This far just to be taken out in the twilight of the fight jarred me Their body parts were strewn across dusty streets, tiny bodies, cracked open left to die After their fleeing parents, were gun down some hiding underneath the bloody corpses of their family members, orphaned and forever traumatized. I remembered the howls of a broken woman, her little daughter, had been lost four days until she was found with nothing but a gaping black hole where the back of her head used to be suicide belts are strapped onto helpless civilians, including women and children by ISIS, Karim of the IRA,
the counter terrorism forces conjectured. This was a big dilemma. We did oh, who Obama bomber was and who is not? Many of our men died from these people forced to be bombers. This is one of the things that, when my friends were over There- and They were reporting back have these kids women children men come? to check points with strap with bombs in the predicament that they worry and but then also the great length that these that the Americans made to try and spare the lock us what you normally do with us Well, obviously, a suicide bomber. Would you do you, kill him and Do you do with the roadside bomb or an idea? You blow it you what we do? We call a blowing in place. We just go put up explosive charge nearer and you blow it up and then it safe. What you
Want to have to do what you do have to do it sometimes, but you don't have to go there with a whatever like up like. an action movie with a pair of players in a wire cutters and actually disarm that thing, because a dangerous and by the way the way they build, those bombs oftentimes. When you caught one wire, its rigged blow up in that somehow causes detonation anyways, so They had many these cases were these kids orb innocent people Had these bombs dropped, a good go, walk into the checkpoint complicates in it, and there is no easy solution to that. Yeah, you know we talked about on a few podcast ago. We talk about the idea of total war, which is at the far extreme of What right total war? We will do absolutely any act. You asked me echo Charles, you asked me, give meaning Like his own examples of total war- and I said ISIS, they did
There was no boundaries, zero boundaries to what they will do mean America. Pretty much always operates in some there's some cap, Now you could say World WAR two once we dropped, comic bombs obstruct hey. This is total war and we are going to do whatever it takes to win as quickly as possible. That's that's How you can make a decision to say: hey, we're, gonna drop, these atomic weapons. Other than that, you know. There's always Rules of engagement, there's always Geneva Convention, there's all with all these constraints. But if you wanna talk about just total war, we will do absolutely anything. Do and stooped to any level of barbarity to try to achieve victory. This is an example Female ISIS members were said to have stoop to weapons using their own babies
seemingly harmless mothers carrying their babies had been trained to enter areas thick with iraqi soldiers only to blow themselves up their young and their liberties lit liberators around them. Two bits. An enemy is most dangerous, went on the defensive or when they are fighting for survival. This was not an easy fight and ISIS was not the J D team. Ices did not therefore, rules of engagement, by which the asked was taught to fight ice did whatever it would take to achieve its strategic objectives, regardless of the consequences there. You go you and me on the same page President Trump gave a free hand to his then defence Secretary Matisse, who in May stressed military commanders, were no longer slowed by Washington decision cycles or by the White House micromanaging that eggs stayed with President Obama has raised.
The new approach. The fall of ISIS in Iraq, at least in terms of territory, came even more swiftly than hardened. U S military leaders expected it move more quickly, that at least I had anticipated Brigadier General Croft said we in there. a key security force were able to hunt down a target ISIS leadership target their commander control like I've, had a lot from the leadership. When I was interviewing them, I had never seen the end of twenty seventeen and now what sort of they? The recurring theme, was that they were given a more of a free hand, and they were so able to push forward. I could look at that issue in hindsight in many different ways and in how that could be interpreted, but that was the narrative on the ground at the end of twenty. Seventeen was that they felt that they were given moss. than they had been in the past year, I think that
It is also very interesting when you look at the fact that this is This general matters right is a general matters whose saying this and obviously General Madison and President tromp in the end were not friendly. which it shows you how very caustic- Trumps. Leadership could be or could become. If you give us tat, crossed him, yeah I didn't say that way clearly at some point they they were seeing at away it's it's well what I love about this and what I would I is this centralize command. This is saying: ok, listen! I'm the president! There guys there aren't you What you do what I want them, I want them gone. I want this. That problem solved command, on the ground. Ok, we're gonna go saw but yeah, that's what I said go solve it. That's that's a great Right, that's a great sign, obviously I guess the disease
three, as general patent used to call it meaning tat I we won this thing now. Everyone should just listen more minutes, that's what you have to watch out for you get. Let your ego make you think just because you made one good decision, you're gonna make all good decisions doesn't work that way, but this is just dumb again very revealing of how confusing Donald Trump leadership could be there You could have that of completely empower general matters to go and solve this problem and then or a couple years later, general matters leaves,
I think it really started that way and I went the wrong with Afghanistan. Go, do what the dog needs to be done, and am I understanding from different people at the White House? The time was that President Trump- you he's he's, not let you know he is the commander in chief, but was the commander in chief, but isn't a military guy, so he kind of he. He gave that job to the generals to do, and then at some point I feel like that she stood in the love that he should have had for the men. Then some of change that I am not entirely prairie to what happened there, but there was definitely shift at some point you. It was all very strange to watch from the outside General MC. there's another guy that was on his staff, who is from everything I understand. I've never met with them I've. Never! We ve covered some of this stuff on on this podcast, because he's
every risk from everything I've understand he's more than most respected guys. He worked up and tell afar My brigade commander, when I was in remedy, had relieved him Intel far. He done amazing job Intel afar, instability that city we use. That plan in remedy, so so mcmasters just them. Very well respected, and he He was gone. General Kelly same thing, I mean just I'm Marines Marine. Whose son was killed in Afghanistan and he ends up so through you're sitting there its cause a lot of its very it makes it. It's obvious. That's very hard up, logically track the fought patterns of president tromp. You you, you can't We just there's some inconsistency there that you just get just confusing, but at this time
it was very clear, is another great another thing that very positive, it says here we we really had one mandate and that was tenable for iraqi security forces to defeat ISIS. literally here in our Lombard, feel we have achieved that mission. Folsom said I never constrained in a waterways I felt liberated because we had a clear mandate and there was Questioning that. We were able to focus on what our job was without distraction and, I think, goes a long way in we are trying to accomplish so that's another thing. It was a very clear mission and Adam I'm sure General matters drove a lot. that to say ok, what do you want us? What what? What is it you want us to do because Lemme clear mission, well,
I mean I do ideas anything up if you have a clear mission, won't eternity and that that mission was Defeat ISIS in and it became very complicated. I think because everybody wanted to argue war. What does defeat ISIS me All people thought war if we die if way, if we lay Syria than that leaves that open too, in all sorts of other things, but in chumps mind I think it was clear. It was defeat. Isis militarily at least not defeat the ideology of my second that's going into a whole different rabbit hall, but in terms of territory. Arguably, yes, that now that was something that was achieved. Failure the limbs killed a lot of them. Tens of thousands of ISIS furnish were killed.
fast forward a little bit the you you you talk from every like, I said, you're your beer effort to capture many different perspectives in one of the point, perspectives that you capture here is of the iraqi Christians and How do we this part pics? Just because it is very moving scores? iraqi Christians in the region who earlier fled in fear neighbouring countries such as Jordan, Lebanon, Turkey, weren't much better off Father, Alfred, said mister. Memory of France. they waited years for visas to western nations only be rejected. Now the refugees were stranded, didn't Have money or the Kurds to resettle in other pockets of Iraq, those fortunate enough to have been granted visas had to watch. Families be split apart. Some members lived in the: U S, others in Europe and still others were strewn across the Middle EAST. What was What is more, it was options. Almost all bad
war ever bring about options that we could be considered good. That sense of Helplessness hung in the air during Sundays Service, women. A fabric mantilla was saying: and prayed. And the men stuck struck candles to elude the dark and space while tiny, chew and played outside in the cold sunshine. Destroyed. All the crosses crosses, been made a hundred and fifty years ago, Father Africa said. But I said to my people: make new crosses. You know in here again you, have a couple modem or I'd say: ten percent of the book is sort of history. Slash facts to give contacts, one of that one of the history. Lessons that you give us is that into
Thousand and three as the Africans invaded the first time Iraq there's one point: five million Christians in a two thousand nineteen there's two hundred thousand Christians in Iraq and is to set a very different schools of thought. I think- and that is that
one being the egg. A lot more effort should be made to ensuring that they do stay. You know, that's the land, that's that's! That's their homeland, Iraq, essentially, so that all the second thought being will they gonna continue to be persecuted, regardless of whether its ISIS, whether its government, whether its and I'll Qaeda? Irrespective of that thing their lives, are in danger. So everything needs to be done to sort of bring them out in and have them resettle in Europe or the United States. So this to vary and it causes Quintus Giza. My thing in that community, because issues to very divergent thoughts on what the the better alternative to that is. Help them stay or help them like a whole section here: ISIS wives, fighting jealousy regrets, and this is where
yeah. You started, I didn't dive too much into it. You said you were talking about the the recruitment and that they had in Europe in a kind of move past it I didn't mean to like it or that, but it's just that you addressed a little bit more here Lena, frisley was twenty eight year old, blue eyed blonde with milky pale skin from Hamburg Germany shoes an aspiring business student with european dream of money, travel, family and success in two thousand twelve. She married converted Islam and left the contract comforts upper home for Turkey. He said that she had made the abrupt decision after being quartered and encouraged by unknown radicals. Amethyst in Hamburg area. She called him Pierre Vogel, who urged, There is to rise up and fight against the Bush Al Assad Syrian regime, her huh Been also came under Pierre, spell one day, my then came home and told me he wants to go to Syria and fight.
Lena, told me matter factory a she nursed her one years old son. Her son in child with an ISIS fighter. And they go back to what I said earlier with the government, the corruption. How much of this is a symptom of of that big problem that we tend to ignore and that's what I found a law with the these women in these fine, as that was specially, the foreign is, yes, I'm going very specifically to join ISIS, but there was the stuff home group that went before ISIS believe in a thing and then mandate was to go and find Bushaw, and so I think that said, we tend to the overlook how much of a symptom you know it. Is of a government problem, Other german native, a stunning raven hair twenty six year old named Heidi Ralphie too, She spent most of your days alone. Ten she said
fallen in love with an older boy in two thousand nine then then, several years in a relationship, he informed her that he was going to help the people of Syria that were suffering as a result of the war, Bashar, Al Assad, love struck He ditched her social network herself, work studies for a life the jihadi wife and two thousand fourteen her beloved Karim, later died on the battlefield she remarried. here's, a remembering it was an easy process. There was just there was an ISIS man, we all knew with a laptop and he would just ask us what we wanted and bring us guys to choose. I met but chose a man from Kosovo blinded by shrapnel, because he wanted to go to Turkey for an operation that was my So she was trying to get out now Romania across the border months dragged dragged on she to return home to Germany. I was in love, it was a mistake and often it women when they try to get out there. They get money somewhere from home and send the money and they pay. You know what they
the smuggler or whatever to get them out in the smuggler. We just take the money and drive them round and round around a few circles and dropped them back. Became this. You know her Lophiodia, you going, but you can earn. You can never leave so that sort of they recurring theme with the women. I found two that even if they wanted to it with they couldn't collage Osman, a forty three year old departed. Karachi, We stand with her husband and children to fight for the syrian people. My husband Distraught after seeing a UNICEF documentary about or in Syria. He wandered go fight, Bashar, my husband sold. Our house and all things for us to leave He used to be a normal man worked and telecommunications, but he saw that documentary and he made it mind. Change. And you know like. We, like you, ve, been saying that some.
but what can underlying issues were in his head right? What was going on? Could he not get ahead at work? You home What was he not getting the support that he knew? What was going on to add in all these other factors. Another one this is it this is a a male born to Marie Can parents in the idyllic countryside, just outside of Brussels Homsey, was well known in this community revered for soccer unboxing skills, as last job was with Th L delivery service. Palms admitted that in two thousand eleven he came became more militant In his ideological views, after being introduced to solaced group, called Shariah for Belgium group called for the overthrow of democracy and urged young people to join ISIS abroad. Almost two years,
after? He headed heeded the call and set out for the battlefield. The organisation would be formally designated as a terrorist group by the belgian state homesick. First place at an immigrants location in the position back of a leap, we're he was housed alongside several western fighters after to each he spent, he was sent for forty days of training, weapons, fitness, religious doctrine, for that he was deployed to the northern city syrian city of Aleppo, to fight. I just want to give for some kind of an indication. Harms a particularly remembered, the ices celebrations. After the two thousand fourteen beheading of american journalist, James Foley, And how leaders use the gruesome event as motivation, it was to say, look how Fighting the Americans he contained de underscoring, the ISIS initially gained momentum after
formation of a coalition of over sixty allied nations designated to defeat them designed to feed them coalitions creation, respond by the ICES propaganda machine to show how strong the militant group was against such a massive force. Homs, repeatedly emphasized in the interview that the ideology driving ISIS was not going stop and had permeated some circle so profoundly that it would be next to impossible to defeat the so said. Each new incarnation of the group brought a school even more rigid than its predecessor lieutenant of ices brainwashing of new followers was singular focused on the United States. Homsey said in what
He described as an obsession with America. It was the big enemy gonna. Have somebody to fight against? absolutely I have a bad guy, we're the good guys you gotta have a bad guy. America makes a very nice bad guy for much of the world and is always going to be different cause. You know that's what I always found here is that you could I use example of of Guantanamo Bay, so you could close that down, but they're gonna find another cause. So there's always going to be a cause, is always going to be a reason, and so I think we think we expose one thing now you you may be created pasties
whatever the reason is, there's always going to be another one and that something- and I think people are really want to recognise also when it comes to policies that you can't have these arbitrary lines between war and peace necessarily mean that but those days long gone with terrorist groups like this. It's just something that I think we have to learn to manage to some degree in a hate saying that, because I want to be able to say that it can be totally defeated, but I don't think that's realistic. I think- maybe I hope Maria just hope, but our art. I always hope- that human beings intrinsic motorways.
And for freedom will rise of eventually to a very positive place in the world. I have thirty airily day I'm not even sure, I believe, my own hope that's my hope, is that I said I hope in and what for fortunate. As you know, you see various places in the world where freedom rises. And that my theory right would be that once arises. It's gonna move forward right. and unfortunately, we see receded mean. I ran a great example. Right I mean my freedom I ran in the sixth and Seventys was completely on the rise and it absent. Lulli receded, tat Self man My hope is misplaced,
in serious who are you in the beginning, with the revolution Arabs, when you they were free You know that they will lead. It was the legitimate sort of movement of wanting a better life that wasn't under them the best El Assad dictatorship, but what and was a God hijacked by a lot of of these terrorist groups and jihadis. Who then I guess, diluted that opposition and then it became miss. Harry again. There was in black and white. It was an incredibly complicated mixture of of opposition, with a lot of them being good, solid. You know wanting to live a better life and then a lot of them being these awful terrorists. So in that that itself was something I think was really hijacked into I hear that story any and you do a very good job in this of a kind of showing some of those strange alliances. Very Strange alliances that took place, and what do you mean
of those strange alliances who're you aligned with an and wait a second what happens when we're done with this job and all of a sudden, I look my person that just help me and realized I've got a whole mother idea where their heading mean around what to defend us too and look at what you know how the? U dot s policy is over there. On I mean the friend of your friend is not your. Is your enemy or not, Yeah, exactly that's a big. Is that that old saying? Is that thing that saying: just goes around in circles, yet I'm in a fast forward passed. Some of this some of these horizontal I'm pass the ass the battle that year you'd you details some of this stuff, a Mozilla and you definitely talk about rocker, And in Syria I'm in a fast forward-
and I'm just gonna I have to otherwise legislator, read this entire book and I don't. Have you here forever, but. We get to a point where the clean up is now happening in this is at the end of the book. And the clean up, is happening, a module and, in this particular case, there's clean up happening in Intel, afar and. I'll just go to the book forty miles west of Missouri, Tal Afore had a population of one hundred thousand before being captured by ices. In June, two thousand fourteen the city was liberated. In October, two thousand seventeen remnants of war were everywhere, bodies found around and under homes. I learned were not uncommon Neither was the smell of petrified flesh
in many cases families living under ices rule or for forced to bury bodies in their own homes and backyards, as well as in local public squares. Sometimes victims were made to dig their own shallow graves. Forty three person emergency division was tat only with removing civilian remains from mass graves. The larger Seven hundred person Nirvana, so defence corps was in charge of sweeping up bodies from the streets, and acting them from individuals from intervene from within individual homes,. The first wasted life to be read. Up from the sewage was that of an iraqi soldier, his bones, Blood drenched, uniform and a pair of handcuffs were zoomed.
then came seven more all dragged from beneath the home that it once served as a local headquarters of ISIS local officials who had been tipped off to the presence of the remains just a couple days earlier said. The victims were likely held in the basement across The street at a second location, another twelve d Post civilian bodies were zoomed. Among the remains found were those of at least two children. and dismembered heads without bodies. Each skeleton bore a thick black blindfold. Most of the victims appear, to have been slain execution styles, Will it showered into the backs of their heads. It was a massacre. More and more of the same one police
told me a police official always- company. The recovery workers through their days work a standard practice. It's never ending. The official continued staring out the yellow fog which lifted into the bright sunshine, is the day passed on. She's had become all too familiar with the discovery of ISIS victims. Are you used to the innocent people under the rubble, said Commodity out, Racine, coming or of the civil defence core emergency convoy unit. He explained to me over cold tee the night before ice kills them. those them into the sewage one by one and covers it over with cement. This is their way. After several gruelling hours with small children watching from low lying rooftops above twenty by
Bags were sealed and handed over to iraqi federal police lawn force. Took them to a specialised committee for examining the bodies when it possible survive Family members of the victims were notified Doubt TAT Download Salaam, marked mood Ali a forty four year old rescue workers from the Zulu considered, something of a hero among his peers for excavating the bodies. twenty seven years. It was a job that never got easier. Sometimes it's five or six entire families all buried in one house. He told me After losing after holding himself off behind the fire truck at the end of a shift and tallow, far as a father especially when I see women and children. It hurts had to pull out many pregnant women too.
Download said he his team had recovered two thousand four hundred body since Mozilla was liberated last July, with more than two and of those coming from the old city on the West side and tallow far they recovered six hundred and forty bodies, many of whom are still on identified. Another five hundred bodies were discovered last year in a man grave between the two strongholds- just human recovery required of dedicated team Ali was also burned with DE mining bodies, sometimes those of ISIS fighters. I can tell straight away if they are ISIS there you We booby trapped and often have foreign passport strapped to them. we don't remove them. Our committee after DE mining. Them is to leave them and authorities Those.
I stood alone as the last the wives, were sworn than those big black bags, their brains bursting through empty. I sockets. I tore off my surgical mask he at the smell of rotting corpses in the unbearable heat. Iraq stood still at the fork between potential future of death. One that would value life, a place that resembled a fractured mosaic that could only be put back together by you. Generation who knew little of life not named by the brutality. they were supposed to be a time after the war.
You're supposed to be a time of peace. Only all it felt like was strange and sorrowful. I thought about that tried and true expression. We all tend to offer one another during hardships, thing happens for a reason. No. there was no reason these young men and women had to die alone. Their bodies left to Dick to K in Literal bowels of their country no great lessened, come from that no sense in that they had. Completed their mission on earth and no reason that it was their time to be taken by God.
That is the lie? We tell ourselves. A child from the neighborhood who had watched without flinching has the body were brought up peered over what was left of the bond bout fence. He looked through the
weeping holes into my tearful eyes soon. We stop crying for the dead he whispered, but all we can do is cry for the living. That too was warm, and that is all it's not quite the closing of the book, but obviously it's the the name of the book
Like I said, we probably covered viper, I read less than five percent of the book today and these stories I mean every page, every story capture. So much of this perspective that you are trying to convey for me, you know coming coming home from my experiences, for instance, my first appointment to Iraq. We spent a lot of time at home. These we were driving a lot. We were
At that time, the enemy would attack from bridges. So when you drive underneath a bridge sort of get like a little, you kind of a little bit of a standby mode, get that little, that little heightened awareness right So when I got back to America, you're driving it and, as you know around, dad in much of Iraq. They look like highways in California, yields big highway with signs in it. There was Do you know when I first got back you'd start to feel or a vehicle would get close cause. You don't want vehicles close to your humble convoys, you'd see vehicle common closing for that split. Second, you think wiseguy get close to me or but be approaching that boy can get that little sensation of brace for it.
So we have these memories. I guess that stick with you and I've got a bunch of those different memories that stick with me. What Where are you at what what memory stick with you? Do you have trouble going back to normal do have trouble with going to sleep at night. I think, in other words, this is a project to highlight a few years ago. I think there has been a little bit of distance from it. For me, I remember, being in the middle of it and run a sort of in one eye was to writing in covering it. I was ass, it was, it was an obsession to try to understand it, to get the story right to get the facts right and it was so all encompassing and coming back, his inward always took me a couple of weeks to kind of readjust, but one of the big
a long lasting, I guess, impacts, always found what you know in my experience was. I think it was a sense of I feel a little bit unsafe, but I would be in New York or allay. I was living by sitting at the time and you get a fishing scam, something on your fine, but everybody gets and for me it was my god I'm being targeted. Who who want something from me, and I always I couldn't separate and think of it. As will everybody gets these. For me, it's just became a set of. I was convinced everybody was tapping into my phone or and for me it was more of the I couldn't see this sort of enemy of Vienna, and that took me a while to kind of let go of that a little bit and to be like you know: you're, ok Nobody's coming at you now nobody's trying to have to your emails, nobody's trying to figure out who were you talking to on this particular day? Oh, maybe they were, but in
it definitely was something I'd exaggerated, I think in my head, so that something I've had to have separation from, and I think that I've done that I saw I think about it. A lot I think about in a lot of you. that I meant and think- and I try to find out where Out there doing, I think today, with all these Weena, what's up signal encrypted messaging eastern content. With these people a lot and that something that previous journalists, indifferent generations didn't, have so today, which is lovely you can still sort of saint contact with them and their families, and then but it also is. Is that you do so. You feel helpless, cause, there's not much. You can do and I dedicate this book too.
It was a family that I stayed within in Syria and they live in my place. Cocoa Bonnie and it was one of the big ass, a stronghold in the beginning, and then they took me any new, create these immediate bonds with people because and they were my immediate for the family made two young sons and Muslims. Wife perishing was pregnant at the time and they said okay, when I left and we gone through all these. Do you know what experiences in and when I left they said I will, if she's if we have a daughter with a name, a Holly and I just sort of smile than I thought that was really endearing in lovely shore a few months later. I get a message in a picture that she had a girl in they named Holly's, felt the same as me as funding. I tried it of check in a kind of and send them a copy of the book. I can't send them. You know anything, but I try to to check in we know with them and it was really sweet as they set off is about five Holly's in combining
So it's kind of this funny little train and I was just so did buy it. I think those moments in life, where you create bonds with people, and they want nothing from you. Dare not trying to get anything from you.
I'm not trying to have their name in a newspaper they're not trying to to do any of that, they just want to protect you and at such a rare thing in this day and age, to have those relationships that transactional in some way it just comes from a place that is so pure, and I think that is also why I was so attractive to the work, because you really meeting people in their most authentic staid- and I think that's just a huge thing. I've tried to do in my in my life at home, too, is is to really weed out. We know what what does it serve me as a human being and and look for those or phantom relationships, and that's one of the biggest take away from me in working in those war zones
I remember when, when I got back from my last appointment and then I retired- and you know what we talk to guys and see stories about guys that would that guys are in Vietnam or and it go back up and then, when I start doing podcast we met guys that had gone back to, Norman. I read more stories about guys to go back to Vietnam, and then you know you can take it to the. guys at one world war, two that would go back to the beaches of Normandy and we think it myself. As far as going back to Iraq, especially when I first got home, I don't wanna, go back, there doesn't want to dominant tracker. normally I'm never going back there only recently have I start to feel think to myself in old, begun a cold or go back and walk those streets again. The war. Where are you?
oh, I was I was planning to go back and just before covered lockdown rather visa, and then I was approached to even girl. I think, like an ad in a couple of weeks ago in had returned downcast for different reasons, but the happy I feel like Iraq is sort of just M, that's kind of second home. Really it's been a little bit since I've been there, but I have I have nothing but the sort of his desire to still go there. I don't. I don't view it as a place that I never want to go again slowly getting through the May, because I don't have. a lot of things. I don't really like my memories of it. A lot of my great memories. That's what makes me sort start, yuri society till platoon, guys like you're, going through things while you're on deployment and you're mad about this new mad method. Back, I'm your man at the summit.
And I said you know what two weeks after you home, you forget all those bad stuff this month, the good stuff and sure enough as time by you just remember the good stuff. I think I'm getting there with a specific, with the city of remedy, and it was really I mean obviously, was heart wrenching to see that when, when Roma, got taken over by ices and the the black flag oasis flying over the government centre, which I know so many people had fought so hard to liberate that city and it was doing so well and as regards smashed by ices. I remember there's pictures of after after the iraqi soldiers went back in made annihilated remedy them. Who up so many buildings? There was a neighborhood called to mean on in western western remedy and eight. I saw pictures of it, it was just levelled building after
building after building, because they just every building that they fought, might have a mind. They blew up and guess what they found him all. They all had ideas, so they blew them all up yeah. I think you have a much better relationship with. The land and the people and the memories than I do right yeah for me. If it really is, it comes down to the people and does it's? It's the people who who I mean what a privilege is too too, for these people to just to trust you enough with some of these stories be that vulnerable with somebody that they don't know. You know at least initially, and I think that's that's something I take us.
as an honour really to be able to to be some kind of vessel in in telling that for me, you know I hate to use the word voice when people say the voice of the voices. I know they have a voice, but but I think, as a journalist you, your or some kind of vessel that can can bring that back in and tell that and I can't do anything really beyond that. I think that is also something had to learn was that you want to be able to Status or he's going to make a difference going to change so and so's. You know some lawmakers mind somewhere and something's going to happen and me and I'm naughty nine point nine percent of the time it doesn't change anything but doesn't make it any. You know less important to do and be once you take that weight off your shoulders. It's so much easier to do your job. Cuz again, is that clear mandate? You know what it is that you're doing and everything else after that is out of your hair
and not in the description. Well, that's probably a great place to wrap this up, because, where you wraps freedom, this book is, you have told their stories and we will pass the horizontal. His many peoples, as we can end up I think, like highly love said, you know you ve got what your talent is right. You ve your skill in life and Halley love can videos and sang, and then you ve got this. Would you to write and share these stories and that's what you ve done so echo you anything. I know, colleagues, that we can find you while the book be upon the website. if you want to order the book on Twitter,
instagram. You are Holly. I use a weird spelling for I guess it's it's slightly unusual. My mom was having a moment. Polly S, Mccann Mackay Mackay Mackay on And on Facebook, there's no ass, just Holly Mackay and yours have Holly Mackay dot com, yes put it back up so who can go there and check out what you're up to which your next project lean do. Next, so am I had a few different things. I have a couple of riding projects that I am nodding out than the basis on its it's gonna, be quite a journey and I'm waiting for travel to open up, but I'm sort of looking a little bit more into the survival aspect of it. So yeah that'll be interesting, and I am just kind of focused on that for now and instead of doing a lot more sort of geopolitical staff as well. So it's a branching out.
right. You are you writing news anymore on a regular basis and a little bit here and there, but I'm really focus on my more long term projects right now kind of getting down a little bit. More to the nitty gritty in the things that I I really see as important as opposed to the daily Chan, so sort of taking a bit of a leap in that. So it's nice how's the book Rodin process that you are good. I'll bet. You have always have a love hate with the inner, but most of the time I really love it, and I love being able to to Helping at having to decipher my handwriting at an airport or about Real Matt, I really love being able to kind of just room sit you said of meditate on the details and- and I try to remember, collars and faces and places and and all those things in and try to put it into words, and so can be challenging. Definitely and can be definitely moments that I just don't want
I wonder what did you take pictures I did. I took a lot of pictures We need to get those up on the yeah yeah I'll, get your pictures of whatever name. So a lot of these. These people they have they have faces, faces places in the euro, novel? I did when I was young with the novel, where an absurd it somewhere in Australia, away my dad's garage, I was, I was ass, a young teen fiction, novel winners into the air the right I was riding you know, that's one thing. Aside from from my ballet from young age, I love to tell those stories and a waste of love to ride and make up weed and wonderful things and yeah awesome. Anything else do anything, so I just said: Thank you for having me here, and you know it's. Obviously these things happen in isolation. So I have a one
a family back home in Australia. My parents have always been amazing support and my sister and in my nieces and and then my am. I call them my american family, which is really may close. Knit group. Friends that I have been indifferent: pockets of America, that really being such a backbone of port for me. I had one good friend, Miley Cardenas is a veteran and she came on a few trips of man was amazing and another good My Dennis Santiago, who helped me with the editing, so the other really my family. In the? U S and then my eye family in Australia Well, it's all come together, for I mean I think it's very clear that this is a powerful book and I thank you for coming on here. I thank you for letting Jacko publishing without, along with along with the Angelo Publishing yeah Friend Sequoia.
So that's ass, a man. It's it's an honour for me to be able to help get this book out there to the world and get these story shared. Thank you appreciate, and by I I I hope I didn't come off- is crazy or arrogant or like a jerk, when I was talking about the fact that- we we do some crazy stuff when we're young and there's a certain amount of being naive, but I don't care how naive you are or how naive you were for you to go into these places to capture these stories- and I didn't there's, there's plenty of is near, where I know from being in combat myself, how close you were too? lines. How close you, much danger. You were in all the time, so thank you for writing, book, but also thank you for your courage in your bravery, to go out there and take these risks To capture these stories to capture
the horrors of war, so there Hopefully, we as a brace of people in the world can learn to void it at all costs. Absolutely. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you both and with that how he has left the building and left us with an incredible book with some incredible accounts. So definitely check out that book A horror in that book lot horror in the world yet better like like shooting DR each detail- and it goes along with the kind of what we ve been saint alot, where it's like when you just individualise one thing and see their story, it's like all men. It really opens up this perspective of like man. This is bad.
And by the way, is four hundred and thirty something page book, and I probably we read It is something like that, so it's an awesome book and the check it out, Lahore, Lahore in the book Lahore in the world I kind of like we should do our best to Some good in the world, starting with our own lives, is try, leave a good life. Goodly fear start there can be a priest If too, oh yeah, I didn't not Polly, just you know living on the floor of some random blown out building she'd get after it. Man, she again after she doesn't she. she talks about it. But it's not that's right. It's very humbly written story? Because it's not about her ear? It's not
while her it's about the people and so with that its very cool yeah that says Colonel lot to but in office don't make it about themselves. Could you say till she could this? Could one hundred percent? This could be a book about her Hunter percent. I, Here- and I did this idea- that it's not that us now the book is, I thought, my life, the info to deal in fact I had to drag it out of her head to drag out of her where she came from and how it started and how she got there. She just jump right into it and you just said about. I was here I was there. she'll, be talking about it and I can tell why she means, but a lot of people she, so you know their explosion happened here, but you know what I'm I'm thing. You're, ok, I know what's happening there. There's a gun. you're going on. That's not she just kind of puts it Were the re under the radar kind, Emma
to be under the radar so yeah, so yeah yeah. We do have to be appreciated for sure we're like even at like, even if you're, not involved in or in these places even like it's me wherever I worry about she had of that. Yet because, like your data- Life here, verses today, like they're even best case scenarios, brought different your work your worst day. Here is better than your best data for ninety nine percent of the population, if not or Asia, so he added men make the best of its one. Us deals ring I so yes, let's not let our lives and capabilities good, a waste in any way with tat to her, but that could her intention is a big deal. Is just knowing these things? That's it that's a huge start. You knowledge, Viejo Georgia with its knowing is half the battle,
gee. I Joe actually say that I thought there was some soon twenty five to twenty five hundred years ago now, the idea of an ever does parliament from the Americans is clear there, sir sob? Yes, you gotta keep things in mind: did you work out today? If you like, only didn't work, I pray that unnoticed Stop it. You gotta know whether you working out tomorrow, Suzanne working as important. Definitely and yes, I did work out, so you work at every day, right. I believe like that, that that's that's the Jamnia I'd done recently incorporated that into my whole thing you I have a five day and then to restate situation resting yes, sir, back to pack usually the weekend of, but my programme. Those five days at a time like week by week in this is how it is convenient. It is, come but it had now is it even before? Even before also need rest is, and I think the headline one had less goin on saying, so that was that the structural programmes, but
I found that if you sort of spread it out little bit more and I try to go hard to on every single day like hard at least one thing are, you know some people have the likely at seven days, but like this one or two like it's like omby amby Today we have well, I might have, depending on how I feel I can. I can tell what I've PETE myself down to where I need a core mobility diversion I used to try breaker, sweat, like just that, minimum, just you know, at a minimum. Gonna break is what you see in that in this, There's a bunch of different effective philosophies and in working out and we're gonna programs like that. I get I'm not saying all yours, dont be as good as my I'm. Nothing that at all, but I found in currently. What I'm currently on is v to do something hard like hard where you body has to be like hey. We recover from this, whether be like small body parts situation even like I met constitution like that, just at least one thing, elector on these kind of
a daisy, a normal work ideas high, is it's gonna, be a hard on Oh you're, saying on the easier day, you're stuck into do one thing: art hard you I like you, I actually do a very similar version of that not cost We but unconscious idea, so let's am going a little bit. Let's not gold super hard met con style minimum. go heavy more of ongoing heavy or from good, not really likes you in the back on heavy somewhere to guess what in the same boat. There keep your body there trying to you noted trimming adapt adapt in on the contrary, rebuild itself as the new and improved version. So hopefully we can cut it. Take this. Ass Vienna applied to the whole, hopefully insane, but here's the thing keep in mind. We
need some supplement patient from time to time. You don't get you don't get nine hours sleep every single night. You know you know max max you only nine hours. Remember. That is what is different. So you don't you dont, recover MAX you don't maximize recovering every single day and one way in its implementation for sure you got a little supplementation routine boom you're going to be on the track, even quicker, faster, more effectively, no worries go ahead. Some supplementation charcoal fuel. So here it is any protein supplementation, Molk she's, like a desert by the way that train for bottom almost a month now forgotten. I forgot the joy the glory, so
going rewind just a little bit. So all this stuff, you can be on a subscription. We mentioned it before, but the subscription you will not have to pay shipping right. You not have to remember to take these less fun ones to take an army, less pain like there aren't like anti fun. I'm just saying the difference between taking a milkshake drinking a milkshake and taking joint warfare or supercrew loyal like one has like a pleasurable experience. One is kind of like okay, you just started. Do it on the prolonged pleasure when you don't have pay, the other does the delayed. That's the delay, gravitation dream, I'm just saying. If you forget that gets a little bit more, can be more of a thing anyway. You there's subscription, you don't have to even think about their us. Do you get a bit like a discounters the discovery of the ten percent discount forms subscribe. Free shipping, so they combine those two things together. We're gonna get spot oil
oh it's kind of a notary, Winwin yeah. It's a note or, if you like, if you're taking it consistently, which you should be trust me the difference between even that taken nothing and consistently night and day man. So if you're doing it, it's a win, win win really triple when triple welcome it. So Jocker fuel dot com. You can get your supplement Haitian there, which you apparently do need. You do need if you subscribe to it, you get shipping free energy temperature of which school you can also the drinks Go drinks are y y. You can get all the supplements at vitamin shop, so there you or Jackal fuelled our come due to want to do. Do you see something if you like something something it's I also urge main dot com, its genes geese, all american, maybe all american aid.
All meaning all of them and all meaning the entire product itself is all american made good deed? Came you and I don't extravaganzas question, but I wonder if you can find something: that's not american made in the home Jane like if you go to one of the looms that they got. Could you find like a set of screws that are used in there? You, like hey? Those are me, you know someone you are going to be hard pressed to find something in your genes. That is not one huh percent American, Mr Creasy the genes outdated. Nothing was not. America bid the clothing reset American Army and always at hunters in America made. We know where came from where we know where the The hide is that were given the leather from we know where that is because deeds the American made barter awesome stuff by a bunch of all made by a bunch of awesome people in farming. To me
fight origin, USA Outcomes, ice at or domain misery, Oh good order me you can't, let's face it. The USA Dark Coms little bit stronger and stronger. If not to me, not strong, but look with food. To fight a war against main or America Gluten made, which includes making their ass. I think we're going to work without origin. Usa near your home. I agree so, yes, also jugglers stores, while Java store dot com, where you can get your swear Eagles freedom, shirts and hats and hoodies, good or kind of cool stuff. There. Are you sure, somewhere right now, you get the jacket that you were executive jacket, lightweight hoodie, couldn't get a lightweight hoodie that echo trousers. Right now why it's light weight hoodie, whether you're over it, picking on and off your hoodie, which I dig do it just off the currently. It is because our warm enough, you showed soda with it on Saint
I shall know outside I showed up with mine on fine came in here. Find me seem saying: so allow me to tell you is that, in the middle of the Bell curve, your good, if we, outside the belt river? Need the direction you're out of luck, Soviets colder, your screwed and if it gets more hot you're screwed, the others too. So I guess, Like I'm right, I lightness setting that his light. We gave you. I gotta look assertion that some of us almost like this kind of stuff, I'm unless we do so return a win nonetheless about how we work. Nonetheless, these things are available for those of us who appreciated speaking of appreciation. If you can appreciate, let's say one off designs are concepts we com layers from time to time on our apparel, though we choose to wear, because it looks good and feels good. We have a little subscription situation as well, so it's the shirt locker. We
landed on that name without jocose creativity. Knowing that was not my creativity. There was a suggestion. Programme should be hurt. I your name, the shirt locker, because the knee which I will not mention cause. I don't want to hear it that, go Charles lack of creativity. Yes got us too will lead. The name that will not be spoken shall not be spoken care, because now we get something good the shirt locker through locker. So that is a monthly thing. He knew a new design, the cool there. There's some lairs there's a attention and focus on. the layers Messina, you Know- and you gonna be as every year to be a kind of way as yet check that out in if that seems Kool aid that damn I'm that one might be for you as well. Jackal store dot com, the shrieking it grab the park asked leave review. If you want to, we ask-
thereupon ass. We got the Jackal unravelling Podcast, which Darrow Cooper is in the house. We should be rolled out with some of those grounded podcast again working at work at it. and where you get broadcast work in it. I have some I'm coming up, so we should get some of those done. You can also join us at the Jacko underground dot. Com Jack, o underground dot com. We have altered If part casts with some amplifying information, some of their subject matter, some behind the scenes we have some q, nay, that we're workin on worrying, send in your body voice video thing and will put all that other also the underground. What I can notice. When I listen to him and stuff and ensure, like I mean I think at all, even the dockworkers, of course like makes your brain like think in work and stuff. But it's like find myself like doing little brain, but it's like exercise for you.
normal sooner start to think about self. Like all we do. I do that always does not apply to me here. I would tell you that the subject matter in the Jackal Underground Podcast are Bay on me going through daily life and recognising, patterns and the maneuvers and the faults and the will and the curiosity and We want a wet. Why did this happen? We do that in some it doesn't fit into a Jocapa gas because it some something about psychology heard something about though she would whatever and so, but it's very important and it's like a van diagram. Is there some part of it? That's leadership. Yesterday, some hundred its history users, some psychology, some socio, zinc all mixed in there, but what it wanted It's all subject matter that will hope you helped me it helps me, but digging into and reviewing why these things are happening. Why am I doing these things?
Sometimes my instincts are good, sometimes are not good but either way, I'm gonna learn from it and it's just The approach that I taken life to try and figure something out, Like you didn't know, new change, a genuine someone goes o put your arm here and you, like but then the next day. You don't really remember that. But if someone says put pressure here and here's, why you do it and you start to understand the concept so I think that's a big part of the Jackal underground pod cast, as was the concept behind what's happening here. Who makes it like judges to Abkhazia, great analogy we're like the certain things in Jujitsu and subsequently in line for what your data they, whatever that certain? are not intuitive. In fact, their counter account onto like you know in Digital to turn your back right into like a fool like the so many reasons in regularly
Like turn your back, that's the best move. It feels like it no moment to moment like if someone the mounted on you like turning your back. Yet he never train you. Do too it's weird. Basically, I wanna get away. How do you get away turn your back and run away wrangling we're running aground yeah like if your in short, a stand up. The most powerful way you can stand up is to turn over and stand up with him. I hear back, get do a sit on this summer, interact and also its like. There's all these intuitive things that are incorrect. That's gonna make you loose and then It's the same thing with her like a lot of the weather, the cognitive biases, whatever its kind, the same thing and yeah through interesting, I can explore Manila. Should I only know this, then you know what to do and what not to do so now, Jack Wunderground dot com, if you want to. If you want to come and check that out, look it's. It's also us our way of having a contingency plan. In case things get wild in case
there's a bunch of things that could happen. Look we could get a censored for something. There are some subject matter that we cover we could give. People could start to say: ok well now, you're gonna weapon our inject advertisements into european cast. We don't want that. We just want to have a long advertisements at the end that echo talks for four minutes on, but we want them so that's. Where do we don't want to be held hostage by a platform or held hostage by sponsors and so a dollars in eighteen sends a month? If you want you can you can join the jock underground, dot com and and if you can't afford that, look we're not we're not and be so if you can't afford it. Nobody email assistance at Jacko, underground dot com, and we will take area we over you to jail where you can check out echo This logic- videos where
I on the good ones, on the assistant director on the bad ones he kind of those sold. So you can check those out lots of explosions. We have now boom with tracks called psychological warfare. You can listen to that. you- have a momentary, just a justice system temptation that you need to overcome took I hit play psychological warfare or on your mp3 platforms. Flip side canvas, Dakota, ireful I gave a star com cool stuff to hang on your wall. We have a bunch works only cry for the living by how we Mackay there you go check I went out final spin on novel written by me We don't even over the novel out over the novel and of the palm of what it is, but we'll see I've been getting warnings, people are gonna, teach you Oh, no, my warning one of the USA to read your book socks. Thank you. Carry on good critique thanks
leadership, charging taxes field? May nautical devaluations protocol this because freedom, Vienna feel manual work get one two three and four get those fruit. Any kids at you know, making the dragon get those with little kids it you know about face by hack worth extreme, ship and that economy of leadership, Ashley front is my leadership, consultancy some problems through leadership. If you need help with leadership in your organisation or national front dotcom, we have ear for mine, which is should training online, which means you can get it for everybody that you know everyone inside your organization and whatever problems ramming inside your organization, the problems get solved through leadership, as I just said. Well, there's nothing better than getting everyone on your team alive. around the same principles of leadership its. It's insane to think you would even trying run an organization without when everyone aligned around the same principles, a leadership so go to gear for mine, dot, com and start taking some courses Goethe
the programme common, do Q and ACE. We have a live gig that we do we're doing three of them. This year got extreme ownership dot com. If you want to come to those key, if I've watched you need people inside your company. To help me with your leadership that you want to hire career over watchdog com and, if you want to help service members, active retired. You wanna help their families. Families want help ghost our family check out. Mark Liese, mom, Mama, Lee she's got a charity organization. If you want to donate- or you want to get involved, go to America's mighty warriors dot org, and if you want to connect This conversation we're on the inner webs once again, Holly is on track, and on Instagram Polly S, Mackay its H, o L, L. I E S, Mackay M C K a why and she's on Facebook
Mackay and she also has Holly Mackay dot com and, of course, echo- and I are also need webs on Twitter on Instagram, which echo only refers to as the crime and Facebook echoes adequate Charles and I imagine a willing, thanks once again to Holly Mackay for taking risk for showing courage, for capturing these stories to share with all of us, and, thanks to all military personnel out there, all over the world who stand and face evil like ISIS every day. Thank you for keeping that evil right here at home, The police and law enforcement, firefighters and paramedics and empties Dispatchers Correctional Officers Board patrolled secret service in all first responders. Thank you for keeping us safe on the home front and everyone else out. There.
He heard it today. There is a lot of evil in the world, it's everywhere and its to all of us to fight against. That does mean you, pick up a gun does mean. I have to pick up a weapon doesn't mean you have to go overseas, but you have to fight, and we have to make sure we keep it up bay by can share. We never forget that its there and then what we need to do is go out every day and do good and bring light into the world and until next time, Zayigo and Jacko out.
Transcript generated on 2021-03-22.