Revenge, revenge revenge. Let us kill, cut to pieces. Let us women blood up to our knees, revenge, revenge, revenge. Let us one the stain from our key that is a song taught to Turkish school children, as reported by the: U S, consulate in February nineteen fifteen, and this is John, podcast number, two, eighty with Mercosur, You and me Jocker, willing good evening. I got good evening also joining us tonight is Darrell Cooper good evening. And the blood spread step by step, Ankara to distant cities, towns and villages at the of August nineteen fifteen, a girl,

Barely thirteen years old told me, following to which she had I witness in which Only by some miracle had survived in MID August. All armenian Males twelve two eighty were arrested taken town and killed by I heard of tortures It was the turn of the girls and women August twenty, if all the armenian women, girls and small boys were taken out two more than seventy carriage and brought to a valley by a bridge an hour and a half away following these carriages from the town was an armed mob of Turks, each of whom, on the way, chose a sheep or land to slaughter. when they reached the area under the bridge.

police and soldiers having joined the savage mob set upon these poor, defenceless women, mothers, brides virgins and children. Just a spring trees are cut down with bill hooked. hedge knives, the blood Kirsty MOB attack. This group more than four hundred with acts. Hatchets shovels and pitchforks hacking off their appendages, noses ears, legs, arms fingers, shoulders. They dashed the little children against the rocks before their eyes of their mothers, while shouting a law, a law. The screams of the mothers and virgins and little children echoed across the valley in the surrounding rocky hills and if the children screamed may rig, may rig mother. Mother

help us please, but the mob, indifferent. Continued to rip apart the bodies so that even stones cried out. Finally, after forty five hours of carnage and plunder nights, black blanket covered this scene of blood which would stir the envy of wild animals with all night, the turkish mob police and police soldiers returned to town with their bundles of Lou. Whatever had left hyenas wolves, Apples and other scavengers came off to finish. The precipices of the valley were strewn with corpses, naked or half naked

The scene, beyond all human imagination. Now and then in the darkness of the night. The moans and groans of the bad be wounded in the raspy, all of those giving up, the ghost could be heard after midnight in the thick darkness, a refreshing do began to fall. And behold a slightly wounded numb. girl invigorated by the dew, woke up. half alive. She began to rove in search of her mother and two sisters: Vain. She called them by name but, alas, they were gone to eternal sleep. at last, she found their crushed bodies which had fallen one beside the other

doktor grow began to shaken sob uncontrollably, her teeth chattering. She did not move from that spot until morning, as if the buyer of her mother and her older sisters compelled her to stay there. At dawn, a few of the kurdish cowed cow herders crossing the bridge in the vicinity of this carnage. So The corpse is moving in the distance they approached her took pity on and brought her home to their fathers care being an end I turn muslim Kurdish. He secretly turned over to his long time friend. There was With the arrival of this little girl in the town, where we were staying, that for the first time.

We became aware of the extent of the killing being carried out around us without a sound or whisper, and that is an excerpt. From a book called Armenian, Golgotha. By a man named rigorous black Ian. Gregoire ass was born in Seventy five in tat part of the year, Ottoman Empire edges In Germany. Eventually became a celebrate priest in the armenian Apostolic church. then he was one of the countless Armenians who suffered through the armenian genocide

he was one of the lucky ones that actually survived, and he wrote a book about his variances and, like I said the book is called Armenian Gotha, if you dont know, Golgotha is gone, There is the name of the hill where Jesus was crucified and this event is. Where the Armenians as a people work defied end where, as individuals for many a mere crucifixion would have been merciful. But before we jump in new more of the book, I wanted to go into some of the background since this event is not as well known as some other gender, AIDS. So Darrow, let's talk about how we got here in an

What are some of the similarities and differences about what happened? The Armenians and what has happened to some other secluded groups in the past. What's the background here as some people, they called the twentieth century the century of genocide. You look all throughout history and there is no shortage of mass killing of human beings by other human beings. In fact, if you go all the way back back to like our tribal times, warfare by genocide was pretty typical. You had no magic tribes, didn't have prisons that individuals in appeared of EU camps, or anything like that. If you conquered and other bribe their men, we're gonna, be a problem and you don't have any were to keep them in. So the standard operating procedure was you just took him out, took that women that were willing to sort of, I guess get over it back to your try with you bet raised. The children is your own. Almost like social mammals, you know like lions,

Somebody comes in kills the male lion and now takes over the pride as time developed. You started to get a sort of systematic civilized level of mass killing, at scale that had never possible in tribal times that you could only really you you. You could only manage with the same sort of administration and organization that allows you to do things like build pyramids and all the great wonders of civilised. Right and when you get up to the modern times, you get something it's even a little bit war while little bit different than that. If we think back to say the Romans, what they did to Carthage Carthage had been giving real problems. Hannibal had been rampaging around the italian peninsula, defeating their armies and when they finally got the drop on the Carthaginians, they said salt. The earth were not dealing with this anymore, eliminate that threat for good and they did when Caesar went up. The gall Rome had been sacked by gall before

the traumatic event in roman history, and so when Caesar went up there and ended that threat thoroughly you think of it in a similar way. It was attached a conquest and that's. You gonna saw throughout history, we get up to the top. century. You see something in a way: that's different and much darker, I think witches. You have established firmly established states, annihilating internal internal enemies according to the state. Tacking captive populations over which they have complete power and control you're, not going in eliminating a threat that exists over the horizon, making sure that it never returned, you know you're going into a prison where everybody is kept in a cell and one by one. These unarmed people you're simply murdering all of these people. Over You have complete power when you think of what happened to the Armenians. When you say

what happened to the Ukrainians under Stalin to the Jews under Hitler. These are the kinds of things you see. This is a disarmed captive population that is not a threat and there's no way out, and that's really. The key characteristic of these events is, if you go to those people in you saw this. He saw this with the Jews Germany. You saw this with the Ukrainians. You saw this with the Armenians. Absolutely at the beginning of the first world. War is a huge part. The population, including the leadership, is really act. Really asking the question: what can we do? What can we do like what is it getting the first World WAR, the Armenians were fly in turkish flags, tens of thousands Went right away and join the turkish military because they knew they had a history with the Turks. They had problems before twenty years back, we'll talk about a second three hundred thousand or so of them got massacred.

And I knew in the First World WAR Ii, tension was going to be high in the stress was going to be high. So what can we do to show our loyalty to the empire to show that we're down for the cause and answers? There's nothing. You can do, there's nothing. You can do you're all going to be wiped out and there's nothing. You can do and it's the ultimate horror movie to have your state turn on you. You know, and it's it's interesting, that you say that the armenian genocide isn't that well known, which is very, very true. Because it really is kind of the archetype act of genocide in the twentieth century, it was really like the first one early in the century that set the tone for all of the ones that came afterwards and it was one of the most thorough and complete and systematic and intentional genocides that we have any record of. that eraser of genocide is somehow

you also see throughout history me how many countless peoples have been genocide throughout history, that we don't even know their names will now. know their names, and maybe we can celebrate the history of the people who did it as a glorious civilization, and we will never know the names of the countless people that they completely wiped out. It's something that we don't like dimension or talk about or admit, but the fact is that, more often than not, if you look historically spy Can genocide tends to work not only our allotted genocides, physically successful but more and more often than we would. We would really prefer the one that does it ends up getting away with it and getting. Getting the message put out to the rest of the world and people in the future, who, who might think of doing something similar, that this is an option? In fact, when Adolf Hitler

was contemplating his final solution for the jewish question Eastern Europe here his commanding generals, who today remembers the Armenians, because the truth was nobody did It is also interesting that in work. more one. There was plenty of Jews that fought for for Germany well over a hundred thousand valiantly. By the way Hitler's life was saved by a Jew, a soldier. He he received his iron cross from a jewess superior officer, So as well as we as we Through this, let's talk about like the relationship a little bit of the turkish people and the Armenians in in terms of how do we end up here? You know I mentioned that it is really the archetype of genocide of the twentieth century, and I

Don't just say that, because of the methods that were used, in fact, the methods that were used in a way were kind of anachronistic and unique to the turkish empire. It was archetypal of the twentieth century genocides because of what what you just ass because of the specific relationship between the dominant majority group and this particular armenian minority, the Turks, the Ottoman empire that it's a it's a strange thing to study when you get up to the late period in the twentieth century, because If you ever ask yourself what would it have been like if, like the golden hoard right or the Mongols or something had just, they had managed to establish themselves somewhere on the outskirts of Europe and they lasted get all the way up to the twentieth century and are still there and they have an advanced. illustration of the gang. cons like descendants like they now have control, they have a big battle fleet. You know they ve got modern weaponry. Em, it's a bit

glorious civilization, Constantinople. You know that it when the first World WAR kicked off. you're talking about one of one of the most sophisticated glorious cities in the world and the Ottoman Empire gives you some idea of what it would be like if the golden hoard survived into the twentieth century is, as you know, the did their turkish peoples who Man is step warriors and conquered the Byzantine empire and took over in all of North Africa, based everything between Morocco and Persia and down into Egypt and These events are what you end up in a situation like this. Is you end up with like a war like people right? That's what your one, what they respect is war and being warriors and that sort of becomes the most risk, The class of people. Oh yeah, yeah, thee, the idea in in the major islamic empires was always that we

the majority population, the command of people in the commanding position of this society. We fight the wars and everybody else, the christian and jewish minorities, for example. They pay for the wars, and that's how it works, we're a warrior people I mean you. These are step warriors, who came and built up a big civilization and they kept a lot of that care. even as they went forward, even as their wearing suits and ties and you're going to do to big security conferences and in international com it is in Europe and the United States. They still had that in on this, warrior people from age where it was perfectly typical, to offer your enemies the option to either unconditionally surrender or be massacred totally. There was the mode of warfare on the step when there conquering civilizations attack the Ottoman Empire got to. Where was it so, as you, as you move into modernity,

this society there that up until the early eighteen, hundreds still had its entire bureaucracy govern. More bureaucracy and most of its military like it, serious military officers were still people. Had been taken as slaves as children and brought back for that specific function. They would go up to the Balkans. They would go up into the Caucasus area because, according to islamic law, can't enslave fellow Muslims, and so they would go into christian areas and just going to a village and say we need ten people we can do. We need ten male children. We can do this the easy where the hard way- and they would do that- he way because they knew what the hard way look like unto the Ottoman Empire was no prettier than it got in the twentieth century and by the time they got up to the early eighteen hundreds, this group of your Hats and soldiers called the jannissaries he's a slave soldiers and bureaucrats who or less ran the important functions of the empire,

the time you got up to the late, seventeen or eighteen hundreds. They are, in fact running large sections of the economy they held in all the most what government positions and they were getting into this kind of strange place with the ruling elites. The ruling turkish leads where Turks are overall in charge, but this other of people who are muslim day there were born christian children, but they were converted his children to Muslims, but that this identifiable group of people who has their own sense of themselves as an identifiable group. These jannissaries that they have a tremendous amount of influence and power that there really the ones running the empire, and it got to a point where the government, the turkish government, decided they couldn't trust these people any more and they locked them on their barracks one night and they burn all the deaf when they felt that this small minority group was accruing too much power and middle management where they can maybe probably could run the empire without the Turks if they really wanted to them

Response was to wipe all of those people out overnight and that's what they did in its known in autumn. In history was known in autumn in history as the auspicious event this is like, a bunch of let's say you have see, fighters training hard, they they fight they they punch each They kick each other. They Russell and in agents and promote others, are out there doing, though you know the work that they looked down upon him out some promoter and not some agent amount on the fighter, and then one day they look up and they go wait. A second. Why Zack I drive and african cities, s class and I'm over here and are Toyota Camry it together and say we're not gonna. Do this anymore yeah. That's one way to look at it. I mean what in so in the thing that so interesting about it. Right is. If you look at what happened to the overseas chinese population in Indonesia and the nineteen sixties, if you look at what,

into the east indian population of EAST Africa in the nineteen seventy. You're lucky I mean and some others. If you look at what happened to the Jews in Europe, if they're there, you go down the line, the people who were targeted are almost inevitably this similar group of people right. Look in Europe with the Jews for a long time. You know we were under a feudal system, the people who were in charge the elites and a feudal system they own, all the land. That, though, is the source of wealth in society is from the land, the majority the local european population role, peasants or may be small artisans. Ah, but then you have this group move in view of the Jews movement and the Jews have been living in cities. Since the end of the Romans kicked him out of Palestine before that. So these are people who have lived in urban environment. They know to engage in long distance trade. They know how to deal in life.

Financial alchemy. They know how to do all they know, banking. They no law there. All literate at a time when, like one percent of your own population, is literate cassettes with these people do and they don't have their own place to live. Obviously, and so they go from place to place trying to survive say what can we do here? We can't own land, only the nobility owns land, that's fine and the peasants work when but I'll bet, you there's a lot of ways that we can help out and they bounced around Europe, sometimes accruing too much power too much wealth and getting run out. Her territory because a king decide he doesn't want to pay their debts or something like that, but that's how they survived right and that it was fine. They fulfilled this middle man. Minority rule for centuries and it was a role that sort of needed to be filled at a time when societies were kind of building themselves up to become more complex and sophisticated and didn't have that indigenous capacity. But then you get up to say the eighteen: Reed's, maybe late, seventeen hundreds depending on where you are, and you have

he's Jews who are engaged in things like banking law, medicine. You know international trade. All of these things that the nobility and want to do in the peasantry was incapable of doing they like we'll just have the Jews to occur we don't like them anyway. There outsiders have them do it. We looked like the aid, Hundreds of nineteen hundreds, whatever they're telling their kid that they should go. Do go be a lawyer a banker gobio doctor, and so they were, prime position that when society started to change the economy, stirred to change, they were ready. They were ready. They had been doing this stuff for a long time and they started to become very wealthy in very prominent, and when that, when that started to happen, you got a gigantic spike in Anti Semitism. You start sing grams, all over the place and the accuracy of this perfect storm to where you have like the nobility Lee Class, whose turn against them, and you also have the peasantry. That's as well

Secondly, these people have all this money and it doesn't take very long for the nobility to lead the peasantry against the what, Whatever class we're talking about, we can we talk about the Jews. When can we talk about the Armenians hundred percent, especially since it redirect any anger they might have toward the people in charge? to that layer below them the intermediary and they would specifically use for that purpose. You know they would use these. People is tax collectors. They would use them as a state managers to manage the serfs and staff because they knew that if things got out of hand in on the peasants rise up, we can be like yet, We knew that those are Jews were were trouble all along, so go ahead, get got go nuts and then and over and over again throughout european history and so this of the Armenians followed a similar past. This is so after the jannissaries right now we ve now this dismay. We now picked up where we could kill the jannissaries. Now we need someone else to kind of. can? I come in here and run, but rather it sort of worked out like that, but the Christians and always kind have been fulfilling those rules right:

Christians in all the islamic empires. If you go back in the Jews as well, they're, usually urban populations Armenians, are a little different, and that's in that respect will talk on the second, but they were the ones who naturally fulfilled those rolled the Turks. They were the warriors. You know, they're not going to go open. The shop yeah in other not do in banking, and then you ve got a lot of you know. You got the kurdish tribes, you gotta these. What lotteries? Semi, nomadic arab villagers and stuff after the Ottoman Empire is not we're not talking about England and in the nineteen hundreds or something it's a very sophisticated advanced society in many ways, but you go like maybe five hundred miles out to the east. It's a wild brick in western You know I mean it is like armenian village, surrounded by kurdish tribes, that raid that village sometimes and kidnap your daughters- and you know go outside the imperial core. The Ottoman Empire did not have the state capacity to really exercise firm control over all of their lands. There was a tribute, which is again reminiscent of the old step empires like we're, not gonna, come

and tell you that you gotta turn Turkish and you can't speak your language. Just send your taxes and dont have any uprisings, and if you do, will common and you'll learn why the last ten people found out that's a bad idea. Now those really, how was a tribute empire and on the Christians and Jews. Chris when one numerical are then the Jews, and so they really in the autumn in context. But when I say that we're talkin, mostly about Armenians in east Greeks, the west and then Assyrians kind of spread out at assyrian Christians as well, and up time very similar thing. They aiming engaging in these these middle man roles administrative, professional and commercial services for the empire stopped at the empire. Couldn't do in its own things like most of the biggest mosques that Istanbul is famous for today, we're all designed by Armenians,

armenian architects by the time you got up to the weight. Eighteen early nineteen hundreds you ve, got the bureaucracy largely fill in the upper roles very often filled with I should say, and the very very upper roles, those are those ottoman run rulers but all These sort of middle management sort of G S, fourteen right, those Armenians, those are Greeks. These new people, like that We rely on these people, and it was a similar thing- you get up into the dawn of the modern age- we're having bureaucratic skills being literate, enumerate knowing how to deal with finance and trade in law and medicine. All of these things that the Christians, the Ottoman Empire were doing, that's where you needed to be, if you were gonna, be successful and they became extraordinarily successful, the Ottoman Empire very, very wealthy. At one point, I am in fact I just

for the outbreak of the first World WAR, the most the wealthiest banker in Europe was in autumn and armenian more wealthy, then the Rothschilds, even and on when you get to that point. You get around that internet trouble where you have this this empire, where the ruling elite The turkish elites are experiencing this sense that the data are really needed so much anymore. Now they don't feel that they're not gonna, think that counts we ever? But that's really what's going on there in charge now of an empire that they couldn't have really built themselves and they couldn't really run themselves and the people who are running it they're, starting to look at various skew for a very particular reason, and that was the this is also the age of european imperialism in one of our unravelling episodes. Recently we talked about the genocide of the workers and you go back to the late eighteen. Hundreds and the

you're. Gonna became the dominant majority in Xinjiang and that I think I got annihilated from a misprint- pregnancy, that word, but will actually got a silent. I must again What was I sing, I think you said Chin Giant norms, messing with and and the they d Wiggers were in the territory in they were being kind of oppressed by the dominant group there, and so the king Chinese said Roger that they went out and white. Those people out there were called his own guards and they don't exist anymore and up really one of the big drivers for that was. You know we had talked about how in China outside their borders or what we think of their borders. Today they never thought about it. S like a hard border back of it. It was just that was the frontier pass. That is the step. That's where all the barbaric like the other word for border literally men like frontier, and so what neither do. I just need to manage the barbarians out there. This is one big buffer zone between us and them

all of a sudden. You start getting the british empire. The French later there russian empire. These other european start coming around in any. territory, they see, that's not already incorporated within the borders of a state that can actually defend it, there's national that up and so the Chinese they wore. Ok, that's not just the frontier anymore. Now, that's China, and anybody in it has to be chinese, because if you are anything but that Well then, you're. Somebody you're are aware that the British, whoever might be able to come up and you drink, driving. Organ with, and so when these Nepeian pot power, start picking away at the periphery of the Ottoman Empire and then really start closed. The walls in Greece, Christian Europe, obviously, and they have christian minority population, Greeks and Armenians and others who have not been treated

technically well over the years as a whole, and so they start to worry that these are potential fifth colonists that these european powers can use to start to split off more territory. They already have so they ve already got that in their heads as we as we roll into world war. One is that is that you know Propria thing is an appropriate assessment. O yoke for sure and actually it existed before that. So when you go back to you, you think I'd like to think you really have to put yourself in the mindset of the people running the Ottoman Empire, and I think we can actually probably do that, because we're Americans right have to imagine how these are people who again the largest and most powerful empire in the world for a number of years and they drove all the way up to Vienna. Twice you go. Look at a map of Europe, everybody out their enemy Vienna's. It's now like they're in the Balkans. It's up there in central Europe I mean, and if they would have it

but I've gotten pass Vienna? I mean you know, Germany, broken into a bunch a little principalities at the time, and they weren't standing up ottoman we're good terms with the french Army, namely made they may conquered. Like you know, two thirds Europe if they have been stopped by the polls in Vienna And so you have this empire. That's not only this that the largest most powerful empire in the world for centuries. It controls, like its capital, is Constantinople, the old roman capital. The controls access to the Black Sea, dominance over the entire eastern Mediterranean controls, access between the EAST and west. You know trade routes and all the sudden. You know star kind of real. Really after that, one thousand six hundred and eighty three fight at the end of the day lost it was just a gradual and then accelerating downhill slide from there. They lose research and chipped away in North Africa. Eventually they lose all that they lose Egypt, The russian empire finally starts to get its act together, takes over all the north Caucasus and wars there, the Russians

expanding you of Orthodox Christians in the Balkans, the Slavic Balkans, the russian empires pushing down there. They lose their balkan territories over time they lose Bulgaria, As you have this empire. That is, you know you have. man should be an American and it's like the obvious, was tough. Iraq and Afghanistan were tough on Mexico. Just invaded and took over New Mexico, Arizona, Southern California and there's nothing we can do about it and Cuba took over Florida and there's nothing. We can do about it like it that the war that's lost its gone now and there's this growing sense that it's not gonna reverse any times if, if ever that, this is like an inexorable process of collapse, it's going on and because its being done by these european imperialists are the ones chipping away and Christian Europe,

and because of the fact that their own christian minorities had been mistreated for centuries. the you know that their there was this sort of sense of hope among some of those christian minority it may be hey. You know where the Armenians over you're in the east- it's not great to be in Eastern Europe in Autumn Armenian out the rural areas in the east. the russian Empire there, Orthodox Christians, there's a bunch of Armenians that live over in the russian Empire and they're actually doing all right. They're not getting massacred by the tens of thousands are not having to pay taxes to you know the eighth Curtis Chieftains, all live around us, and so there was some of this sum you know these these be. one organised fifth colonists or anything like that, but there This sort of sense that things might be a little bit better if they weren't living under the Ottoman Yoke. That wasn't a completely invented when, ah,

three, the eighteen. Seventy seven war between the Russians and the Turks they lost Bulgaria, a bunch of muslim refugees came out of Bulgaria came and moved into the Ottoman Are they also lost a bunch of their north caucasian territory and a bunch of six Muslims and other muslim tribes from up there had to be pushed that they play. They they fled, does the cossacks, where our harassing them and stuff, and so they start coming down in a lot of him settled in this area, where Armenians had traditionally lived the whole area of South eastern Turkey. Today, the army, is right across eastern border, but you go across the The whole area of South eastern Turkey words mostly Kurds today that that, for many, many centuries was all Armenians from most Barnett's traditional, like army, and arm yet all of these others that moved into this territory- and they start having problems with local armenian population.

right at this time where the turkish government is stirring to look at its christian minorities and specifically the Armenians with a great deal of suspicion, and so you start to get on with it. You start to get this this dynamic, where in others, multiple things at play? They don't trust the armenian population out there and there miss treating them, which is, into a certain sense of resentment from those Armenians toward the government. The government doesn't have the state capacity to go out there and really like set up shop and establish order out there. You have all of these destitute new muslim refugees, including a lot of emerges, tribes, a kurdish tribes and things nomads who began their refugees. They don't have a lot going on, and so they start robbing and rating the armenian settlements that are out there and turkish government either lacks the will or the capacity to defend them or to go out and punished,

and so many in self defense movement start to basically pop up just so they can defend themselves from these kurdish raids and circassian raids on the turkish government sees. That is that you see their arming up. They just kill a bunch of Muslims from that kurdish triumph over there, which we knew it we knew there get ready for rebellion, and it was just this vicious cycle that started to kick into place to the point where, by the time you get the eighteen. Eighty, eighty nineties, you mentioned that song at the beginning that the turkish schoolchildren are being taught during the first World WAR there was an account. I read from an american missionary that saw in a turkish classroom talkin like first second third grade kids and they're going through lessons where they ve got drawings up on the board like, cartoon drawings of Armenians, including Many children participating just hacking limbs off of Turks and you know raping

I'm killing them in just the most bloody and horrible ways, and schoolchildren are being taught that this is who these Armenians are. This is what they want to do to you and so this had been by the time you get to the first world war. This kind of thing had been going on for for decades and the Armenians didn't have it all it didn't come to them as a complete and total shock a lot of them anyway, because they had seen a sort of premonition of it in the eighteen nineties when the Sultan Abdul Hamid, the second information, Ottoman and armenian history ordered a series of massacres. Starting eighteen, ninety four there Damn we want You say it was just ass. It was a free for all total massacre. There were soldiers and John Darn John, who were participating but really was a call on the local populations, muslim villagers and tried to get out there and dissipate, kill your Armenia neighbours and

there are specific to the Armenians. There were some cases. In fact, in this happened as well. First World war, genocide where there are telegram out there and messages from the government, letting them know hey, don't mess with the Catholics, make sure that you don't mess with. You know these others. This is about the Armenians and they butchered may be two hundred thousand people over the course of about eighteen months and a hundred thousand or so died in the year so after that from starvation exposure in whatever, and so this is something where you know: they're, not going into cities and rounding up. Twenty thirty thousand people at a time, they're gone village to village, to village fifty people here hundred people. Here you look at the map of the massacres and the eighteen. Ninety four million massacres and the whole thing is just covered with like skulls and crossbones, whatever symbol, they used to say, massacre, site massacre, Saint massacre site. Just all

Eastern Anatolia was jesting, come covered in blood. You know, the local population was basically mobilize to go out there and kill your armenian neighbours and that's what happened. So that's eighteen, late, eighteen, hundreds and now we start to get into the night. major phase when World war, one kicks often yeah, there's an and die interlude there, like the reason that they stopped killing them. You there's a book. The came out recently called the thirty year. Genocide by Benny, Morrison drawers every which is to israeli historian, to look real deeply on this. In God, they probably went deeper into the into the records to figure out exactly moment by moment. What happened here, than any one really has one of the things that they discovered is that this was not something they just popped up in the chaos of World war. One that those massacres in the eighteen nineties, the only one reason that they stopped, and I was at the british- made them stop

there was. There was a this point, the Ottoman Empire is having huge economic problems. The british the French, were essentially had the empires finances in receivership, their basically controlling the Ottoman fiscal budget, the governmental fiscal budget happy- and you say, Over it anyway and arm in eighty, Ninety six, this armenian, militant group after all these murders. So we have to do something and there's nothing you can do We do I mean it, you know you can't you your tongue, Yes, I'm in David Goliath, I mean it's a flea verses Goliath. They can't fight back, there's nothing like that. We think they can hope to do is get the attention of outside powers who can wield influence over the Ottoman empire. and so they say well, what is it we can do to actually get the attention of these people, what they were, the british care about, and so they went, nay, invaded the Ottoman Central Bank, the bank, Ottoman in Constantinople and they took a bunch of hostages and made a bunch of demands and on the

you then they knew that there were a lot of european hostile hostages that they would be taking and that there were a lot of european assets in that bag. and so the sultan at the time he's. You know again user. These her step warriors hardcore people, said yeah, that's nice, your demands, that's cool. You can throw away and he just surrounded the place with artillery and got raided just blow the place to rubble and at, Gametime, put out an order for everybody in Constantinople to just go out and ask her Armenians in Constantinople. That's what they did their rampage through the streets, beating killing anybody they could find if he prepared to just blow this bank and read the critical moment, the British, since some warships into the door, Nels there and sent a message to the sultan that if you blog that bank, the next thing it's gonna be destroyed is your own house, and so they back down, but that's Me reason those things stopped and he put in order out of the massacres, Rover and they came to an end that p.

you dial up until you get to the first world war. Most, you know. People who look at this seriously now realise that First, world war was not a reason for them and genocide. It was just the opportunity for this late. Eighteen nineties does actually Here we can talk about what it was like. We can sort of throw some words on it, but there's probably nothing better than going back to the book there. talking about armenian Golgotha, Talking about some of that stuff that took place in the eighteen. Ninety going back to the book, ask her began on the morning of December twenty eight the governor sent word to. On Christians, to assemble in their churches and not stir out and refer from sheltering Armenians, the troops, then drawn up at the entrances to the armenian quarter. Behind them in armed muslim MOB gathered, while the men

rats were crowded with Muslims, evidently, in expectation of some stirring event, the Turk women too crowded onto roofs and slopes of the fortress which overlooked the armenian quarter, the mob Cheered on by the women who kept up the well own peculiar throat, noise used on such occasions by oriental women to discourage to incur their braves. at around noon. Moves in cried out in the MID day, prayer as a glittering glass ornament resembling a crescent was seen shining from the top of the fortress, overlooking the town, a mullah waved, a green banner from a tall minaret overhanging, the other end of town, shots were fired and a trumpet sounded the attack Rogers opened their ranks so the mob could pour into the quarter the gun

disease was seen, motioning the crowd on the mob, guided by troops who had familiarize themselves in the quarter during the siege, a body of woodcutter, armed with axes led the way breaking down the doors soldiers than rushed inside and shot the men. A certain sheikh british diplomat, G Fitzmaurice wrote, ordered his followers to bring his many stalwart young Armenians as they could find. To their number of about a hundred. They were thrown down on their backs and held down by their hands and feet, while the shake with a combination of fanaticism, cruelty proceeded while reciting verses of the Koran to cut their. Votes after the mecca right of sacrificing sheep.

those hiding were dragged out and butchered, stoned shot and set on fire with matting saturated with petroleum and were cut down shielding their husbands and fathers. More Armenians were shot as they scampered along rooftops, try to escape when the killing subsided the houses were looted and torched. Sunset approached the trumpet sounded again calling the troops and the mob, to withdraw. The atrocities resume the following day December: twenty nine with a tremble, a trumpet sound at dawn, the lot number were killed at the armenian cathedral. Where thousands had gathered for sanctuary there, matters first fired through the windows into the church than smashed in the doors and killed the men clustered on the ground floor,

Fitzmaurice relates that as the mob plundered the church, they mockingly called on Christ to prove himself a greater profit than Mohammed. The Turks than shot the shriek and terrified massive women, children and some men. In this in four gallery, gunning. The Armenians down one by one was to tedious, so the mob brought in more petroleum soaked bedding and set fire to what work and the staircase leading up to the galleries for several hours. The sickening odour of roasting flesh pervaded the town. Writing the following March Fitzmaurice noted Even today the Of the charred remains in the church is unbearable. a missionary who witnessed the massacres, described her the horror as a grand holocaust and four days,

Afterwards watched men, lugging sacks filled with bones and ashes from the cathedral. The trumpet again sounded at three thirty p m the time for the muslim afternoon prayer and the mob withdrew from the armenian quarter show We afterwards more fitzmaurice wrote the Mufti Ali sandy crews, impartial and other notables creasy. by a band of musicians, went around the quarter, announcing that the massacre was at an end There would be no more killing of Christians. for the next three days, the authorities employed Jews and donkeys to remove the dead before the massacres are FRA, was home to about twenty thousand Armenians. All old, perhaps as many as ten thousand died over the course of two days,

five hundred to three thousand of them at the cathedral. those who know, this was no shocker moving into em into world war. One year, although in There's a there's a maybe a way that nothing can prepare you for it. Even if you've seen it coming when it happens, you're just not ready there alot of Jews in Europe in the in thirty two, you were writing to their relatives in other parts of the world sang we gotta get out of here. There were sitting on the edge of a volcano right now, who still when it actually came, were all you know just kind of caught with that dear headlights. Look because when you do, you know there's a lot of. You can read a lot of a lot of stuff from hollow. Survivors, children, and also from dinosaur in Palestine, out of a country that I'm who really can understand like Y, all

her parents or our cousins, were in Europe at a time like why aren't they fighting back like? Why aren't they rising up or whatever Just you just don't know what it's like to be caught, where there is nowhere to go the enemies in control, and there is yet you can. You can rush electrified fence, you can then you're caught and they and EVA established dominance in a way that you knock, it is really to be able to get out of. Because again, These modern scale genocides like this, are something that can really only be pulled off by a state held the young Turks play into this ass, though after you there were. There were people within the turkish hierarchy who understood that this that this empire as it stands right now, it's gotta change gotta make a transition, Taft modernity. If we're going to compete at any level with the british empire, the rising russian Empire, like we gotta, get get it together and the way were running things now. Are we can't even really

control, troll or territory effectively a few hundred miles out east- that's not gonna, do it is not only do it anymore, and so they were modernize or Sis was a movement that started out in universities, but a medical students lost students. Things like that, And it was, it was an underground group. It was a sort of a revolutionary groups or, like you were seeing all across Europe at the time, the Bolsheviks and a lot of the Socialists in Russia, for example, from the difference. I guess between them and the boy the exercise, a million differences, but the main one is they weren't international, communist or anything? They were fierce, fierce turkish nationalists, but they were, they were Malta. cultural yeah. This is this is a big difference to this wasn't strictly Armenians or Greeks. Inside of these, were people saying it's going, here today or like I'm, not I'm not a. I american. I'm an american right. People are saying: hey, I'm not an armenian and Turk Robot, a jewish Turk, I'm Turk. Yes, they actually had a boat. They called the Ottoman IST movement in other what they

damn everybody. This is a big thing in the late eighteen, hundreds really up until the defeat in the first World WAR that arm that everywhere, whirl ottomans, right wing, the time was like Ottoman. That's just the name of the turkish commander who like came in with that. You know who established there, try, but many was the tribal leader at the time Osman. But you know by the time you got an up to this point. I mean America's some of it sailor to write so like you can do. That has no problem, but there are ideas. It we're all Ottoman its ottomans here doesn't matter where you will. well, whatever fact, a lot of the young Turks in Committee of Union in Progress, which was like a really militant group sub group of the younger. Some of their leaders, including some of the ones that would be in charge of the empire during the first world war. Ah, they weren't turkish till I push the guy was the Interior minister in the effective head of government for the Ottoman Empire was from bogey was born in Bulgaria, for example, and the young Turks,

Jews they had Armenians. The Armenians in fact really supported the young Turks at first because they they thought. We have this, or it may be more trinity, a modernizing influence, see like more of a secular influence, because those one other thing I didn't mention is as you as the Ottoman Empire started, to get worried about these christian societies, you're in societies pushing up on there orders and maybe using their entire internal Christians as fifth column, Let's creates divide, they really started pushing that islamic identity and really playing that angle of it up, which was something they kind of avoided before, for the most part, obviously, like the Ottoman Empire, the caliphate right. The Sultan is that the caliph And so are in charge. This is all this is you're in somebody else's house right if you're, a Christian or a Jew. This is the Muslims house. Everybody knew that, but they they had an empire manage? They were trying to create problems between their muslim and christian ingenuous subjects right

by the time when it once they started worrying about the loyalty of these christian subjects. And worrying. Not only about that actually worrying about their non turkish imperial subjects like they were read about the Arabs not wanting to be under Turkish as we saw in World war, one that was a probably a good call. If the British sent Lawrence of Arabia down there and got the Arab to rise up and in March on on the Ottoman Empire, so they wanted to avoid that, and so he started playing up like unity, the Arabs, it's your Muslims. This is a Muslim. How could you side with the british? They would say to the core You know that you had Russian Empire, who was trying to encourage like kurdish separatism, for example, just kind of creates? chaos and some problems over there and what they wanted them to say, your Muslims. Don't you see those Christians, just want to destroy that. You know the this. This muzzle glorious muslim empire and this side effect of that, or maybe it wasn't a side effect. You know, because

We were worried about the loyalty of these internal Christians as well was that those Kurds, and yet we are Muslims and Christians are trying to destroy this glorious muslim empire, those Armenians or Christian, and he started to get some real problems there and when, coupled with like what they were teaching in classrooms and stop by the time you get up to you know the first World WAR its at a fever pitch well, the young Turks. They seem to be force into some degree they were a force, was trying to move the empire beyond all that, and so you have. These Armenians includes armenian militant groups. You know that it really formed because they are because of the mistreatment of of the Armenians in the east, who are down with you. Turks. The fully support him in nineteen o eight, when the young Turks launcher launch a coup to take over the government they march on Constantinople, take over the governor Armenians, return in the streets. The armenian militant groups were celebrating that

in nineteen o nine. A year later, there was a counter coup by the conservative. Sultan forces are the sultans forces. and during that brief period, that the Sultan was back in power and the young Turks were out of power, another thirty thousand Armenians got massacred in the province of Adona and it was done with the same character that you just read. You know this is a guess, the first World war in that whole period. Is it so fascinating right because its This war, in which The old world marched into those trenches and the new world marched out of em you now, it's the pre modern world in the modern world? Just really it's that it's that trans, in point clash in so you have this genocide. That has done for modern reasons, like nationalist reasons, almost right, you didn't. You know that this idea of, like ethnic purity and needing to have like our internal pure. That's a modernist idea and though the meat,

by which was carried out administratively. In all of these things is the turkish empire of Modern Empire many ways, but this is genocide. It was not carried out Siena with with ledger sheets and are you know thy clause be in gas ovens or anything like that? This was something was done, the old way it was done with hatchets and axes and hand knives and kitchen knives and clubs in boots, and it was something that It was a genocide it was conducted in in ravines, just off the road and in people's basements, not on battlefields, So the situation that we're lookin out now now You get ready for World WAR one under the. Is it a Hillary Clinton Quote: never let a crisis go to waste as those Rama Manual, ok, present Obama's, first chief

never let a crisis go to waste. Here is a new car, But it's not a new idea at all. World war. One breaks out, and this is an opportunity and they get started right away. and some people who may have been paying attention at the time they may have had some idea that the young Turks had Changed or because they took the government back over pretty quickly in nineteen o nine, so the young Turks are in charge now and allow the Armenians feel pretty good about that these relative to what they have been facing before, but in nineteen ten there is this incident. People were complaining about all these stray dogs running around Constantinople, tens of thousands of them that we're just ran around they were attacking people, sometimes destroying the city and the young Turk government was called on. fix this problem? How are you gonna fix it? Will they sent dog catchers, thousands of Don catchers out and they caught all of them dogs, one by one eighty thousand dogs they caught and they put him ages and they took him all out to this.

Island red off the coast in the Dardanelles, and they just dropped him off there and the medium sized ones, eight, the small ones, the big ones medium sized ones, the mean ones, eight, the big ones, and then the main ones died of starvation and that's how they deal with the Doha talks in Constantinople. Young Turks were this force that was supposed to fixing all of these old legacy problem to the empire. Will they had a chance to prove it in nineteen, twelve and one thousand nine hundred and thirteen? Just the year before the first World WAR breaks out the Serbs and the Montenegro in a coalition of other small balkan slavic people's up there, who wrote river revolted against the empire. and the young Turks and an army up there and they got pushed back and the young Turks were humility by this they lost the last of their european territories in the Balkans by doing that

and so in, and they blame very. They very much blamed sort of fifth columnist, Christians in those balkan territories, for what had happened and right around this time. You to see the forces within the young turf movement that is very anti christian and specifically anti armenian they're. The ones that they really worry about the Greeks are separate issue will talk about them a little bit, but on executive, three hundred thousand Greeks red around this period to they killed three hundred thousand assyrian Christians. They killed a couple hundred thousand lebanese Christians. This was that this was a mass killing of all Chris. Across the empire. They just really had been for the Armenians in particular, and so the first World WAR breaks out and You know again, I mention this like very near the beginning. You have your meaning to recognize it like this could be a problem like to be an issue for us, not necessarily that they're going to do something like genocide us, because but I was thinking like that at the time you have to remember like nobody in this pre holocaust. This is pre pol pot. This is pre stolen or any of that kind of stuff like that.

the idea that you would have one of these major empires. In the Ottoman Empire like to us. Maybe you know we think of it like this very sort of exotic foreign empire. That's almost this. This throw from like an ancient time, or something like that very ory. This was that the Europeans you know they had before they were fully integrated with with Europe. The most part of me. This was something that people read about. Constantinople, times every day. You know so Zeit people talk about like you know, Germany, how one of risk the crazy things about holocaust easily, but its Germany. How could Germany do something like that we're Leibnitz came from its way known girt that came from, and I Turks were not as foreign Ottoman empire rather was not as foreign back then, as we proceed we tend to otherwise eyes and think about it today,

nobody was thinking like they're gonna, wipe us all out. Yonder might be massacres that local populations make it out of control in the local government. There might encourage them are or are not stop them from doing it, but nobody was quite thinking along such totalling lines, because he just didn't, have a historical precedent for the young that that you talked about earlier of sitting there thinking. Well, this isn't gonna happen right. How can this happen? Well,. Even as it was happy, even ass, it was happening and it was definitely happening. But here a little bit about what happened. Going back to the book during the first days following my arrival in Constantinople, I hate to call on several notables, whom I, for a long time and who are friends of mine, my job, impression was that no one grasped the gravity of the situation and no one was worried about tomorrow.

any insisted that Turkey would not enter the war when it began. They said the mobilization was simply a precaution. They were Simple minded people convinced that, as long as the government was in the hands of a young Turks and till I was the Interior minister, no date. Face them. but, alas,. The armenian leaders came to understand the truth. Only when they were already walking on the road to death. So deceived where they buy the flattery of promises lavished upon them, that we need for police and several policemen came to find and Bunni one of the dash nap Eddie leaders and a brilliant russian armenian rider and placed him under arrest. The stew, fighting guinea Messina right again, Agnes asked if two lot knew about this.

And when the police chief showed him the arrest warrant be bearing towards signature. Agnes was even more stunned and replied that he had been to lots for dinner a short while before and wanted to know why two lot hadn't said anything about it. The unfortunate Agnes being an idealistic. An honourable man could not comprehend how to lot could plot against him. So cynically the same two lot whom he had sheltered in order to save to lots life while risking his own during the counter revolution following me Thirty one nineteen o nine, along with his five com, adds Agnew knee was taken from eyewash. About four fifths of the way he realised that he was going to be murdered and when the hawk the well known leader of the Dash Knox, was war, by his friends in adona. He answered calmly and with deep conviction

As long as Gmail Partia who's the affair one charge. Assyrian Palestine is alive. No one can touch a hair on my head, then pointing to a large portrait of Gmos, Partia in guilt probably displayed in his room. He said long with my good friend and friend of the Armenians, Jamal passion. I recall detail the circumstances of the hawks hanging ordered by Jamal Porsche So here you have these people who are that there looking you know it's like hey will back as a friend of mine, I'm gonna do this to me, one of them either. One of I'm talking about. What already took care to lodge he's gonna. Take your me or you don't I Belgium all policies, a friend of mine, others are from another book

the book that you mentioned earlier. They have another interesting. uses up around the time when we start can't, we do is we have we have documents, you documents that that explain what what what orders were being given and theirs, Speaking of the lot, was overall in charge. The government and the architect of genocide wanted. Documents there is, there is like a reluctant regional governor who was kind of kind of plain, DOM hammer release you weren't supposed to do. Is this really what you want, and I sent a three word telegram that said: Yok Ver, older. That's it in those those words mean burn demolish, kill, no room.

Confusion there, no room for community there and that's how we that's, how we start moving into this sum situation just disintegrates now yeah. So if you look at why The Ottoman empire was brought into the war by the Germans. What did the Ottoman Empire get out of it? What are the Germans expect to get out of it with the Germans expected to get out of? It was look there facing them, I wish the French and the Russians, all three of them have been taking a territory from the Ottoman Empire for years, the Ottoman Empire would like to take that territory back in these other three would like to keep it. So if the Ottoman Empire doesn't have to help us conquer the world, hear anything if they can just put some pressure on Egypt, put some pressure on the Caucasus and on the Balkans, then its then these other three empires that the Germans are facing are gonna have to like redirection resources to defend them, does the idea and for the Ottoman Empire they thought this is an opportunity to get some territory back and also

fortify position internally so that when this war is over, we don't have any problems inside that can be exploited again later. And on the Ottoman Empire was not look. The Turks can fight still fight to this day. From what I understand, I mean they're they're, a warrior people and they carry that in on, but they were not prepared for this war. They weren't prepared Toto with the british Empire and with the russian Empire and so the first thing that happens you you mentioned two lot Porsche Jamal Partia. Those were too the three people who were kind of the Ottoman triumvirate during the first world war. Two was the Interior Minister and he was the head of government for effective purposes all Partia was the head of the navy- and he was the military governor of Syria, which is much bigger terror territory, then

time today is really like all of Syria, Lebanon, Palestine, like that at all thing and arm, he was known by the Arabs in Damascus by the way as the butcher. He was not here. Our death very similar to the way stolen did the holiday more starved to death, a few hundred thousand lebanese Christians and Mount Lebanon where he was taking all food. Sending it out to the front not allowing any food aid or anything else to come in and a few hundred thousand people just starve to death on the streets are accounts and people who are there at like American University in other western missionaries and diplomats who say they would put cotton balls in their ears in their houses because outside it was just moaning, children, moaning, women, people dying on the streets begging for food. It just sounded like the zombie apocalypse out there just moaned day and night people dying, you go out in the morning and open up your door and there's a dead child on your doorstep.

Mount Lebanon lost fifty percent of its population. Up there it was one of the worst hit parts of the entire country, and so those are two of the guys in the third one. Member of the triumvirate is in Vera Pascia and Pascia is just a term of respect in the Ottoman empire to very high ranking like official. Basically, it's not there brothers or anything so Enver decides you now Napoleon I do invade Russia in the winter. Hitler's gonna try and do it in a few decades. Not me well for either those guys but screwing. Let's go for it, and so he gets here, force and he tries to go up into the Caucasus and face the russian Army up. There may be feeling like he's gonna catch them off guard. He doesn't about that. Sir, Accomplish happens and the Russians wiping out and push him way back, and so now the Ottoman Empire is really start in a panic grave. You look like the Holocaust really kicked into gear? It wasn't nineteen, thirty, nine, it wasn't! Ninety four It wasn't even really an early nineteen, forty one it was after the German

within seven miles and Moscow, and then those Siberia, troops showed up and pushed the Germans back and they realize this might not work out the way we thought it was going to and they said well what else can we accomplish? Then? What else can we accomplish and you know, because that, though the Caucasus over there, if you look at the territory, Eastern Turkey, you know the Armenians in South eastern Eastern Turkey, there right across the board as more Armenians, that's modern Armenia, radio across the border today, and so in these people, didn t they words Brick, don't get me wrong even spoke, really different dialects in it too large a green stuff, but they still knew that those where there are many and cousins over the border and they knew it back and forth and like the Kurds and southern Turkey in northern Syria. Today and so when the russian Army pushes past ether pass that border into eastern Turkey The Ottoman empire thinking with with some just as with some reason that these people, who they had just massacred a few hundred thousand of a few decades back and have been

going to be abused by the Kurds and everybody else who wants a piece in the decade since that the right he's going to mobilise these people and put him to work against the Ottoman Empire, and so, as the Turks are retreating, they are just watering and burning and destroying everything they can just terrorizing, Armenians, murdering the people they see, especially military age men. No, The military men by this point have either been conscripted into the military. And then disarmed potent slave Labour battalion and by the time you get up to nineteen fifteen around the battle. The liberally they'll be worked to death or simply murdered the on Generally speaking, they would get these men who the Armenians, who showed up for the draft and eyes and you're gonna will go into the interior. We're gonna, build trenches, defensive fortifications in it I'll go and spend all day, big digging a trench, Nebula great job can stand on the edge of it. Please

and then they would martyr them all and then fill the trench in it was a mass grave. They been digging for themselves the entire time So, as this is going on. you have the other armenian young man, military age, men who were like well. neither saw that coming or maybe they didn't leave their home villages because they are already getting attack by kurdish tribes every other day in this, and I can't leave my wife and kids here and my parents here, and so they just refused to go but dammit you had to go into hiding. He had to go somewhere because of the Turks found use a rap and so all of these villages, that it did the retreating ottoman arm he's coming back through unjust, murdering and terrorizing you're pretty much all women, children and old people and that's gonna, be a theme throughout the entire story. Is the men are already gone them? of already been killed a long time ago or they ve had to run away across the Russian now across the russian battle lines? Lot of them did go. Join the Russian

horses once the once the genocide kicked in and so a lot of the stuff that we're going to be that we're going to be hearing about going forward. This is all stuff, that's being done pretty much entirely: two groups of women, children and old people, but bye, bye, military age fighters, and so that's that first step disarming and then killing the armenian men who had joined them. Terry happens in the second, That the Ottoman Empire needs to do this before the real genocide. The mass deportations in killing really start in a systematic way. You know they have to leave groundwork for it, and- disarming the armenian military people dead. Why did they needed to get rid of these two? These two towns that day expected would put up resistance because they had done so before they did during the committee and massacres in eighteen. Ninety is, in fact, one of them's a tune which was a user user. Mountain You know these are tough people that even other Armenians kind of what did them like there, a little bit crude and uncivilized their alike,

leaching scotch Irish kind of like the way we in America look like those appalachian folks like manner why? no kind of crazy and whatever, but boy like you said. problems within the union S problems yourself, like they're, not gonna, you're very independent, minded an end not these two or down with being told what to do by people and A tomb was up and up in the hills, and on. They knew that they were not going to just accept this and they have the capacity to actually push back little bits of it. They started the mask New Cross Anatolia, the time they might have to worry about these two places either turning into fortresses, where Armenians could retreat and then from their who knows or just that they can turn out enough partisan fighters they to really create problems in in the rear echelon, and so they go there first and they just they wipe those places they go to Van VON is the second one. Besides I tune and on Do you know they go in and give him an ultimatum or your men to come out.

they do this under the under the guise of like we're, looking for draft dodgers and deserters and so forth, and so they show up and they round up anybody whose there, whose important or in any other older men who were leaders, if there's any writers or singers or poets, any anybody's prominent who could serve in a leadership capacity. You sort of collecting point four people arrive in point. They take all them, they torture them and they kill a bunch of them and then if the rest of the people an opportunity to turn in any Benny them who were still around or anything. Instead, the p when Van barricade themselves into the town and say coming out, give us back or are notables give us backer or men are leaders and so are. Instead, they roll artillery and they just start showing the town and arm intermittently they'll send in muslim mobs Go and massacre the people who are in there and eventually they, they kill enough people that they are able to get all the women and children out may send their marching south

the desert they do something very similar in a tune as well surround artillery bird. Down the monastery where a bunch of the younger men were hiding and then the women and children who are left their thousands and thousands twenty thousand or so and say to actually do actually so yeah, who actually left out one other thing is another thing that they that they did to compel people is when the people in Van were holed up in refusing to come out. Is that ok, Roger that they just going all the way is around the town, just massacring all the people there and um once they had. If I d area, they got all the women children people who were laughed and they put him into caravans under guard and they sent him. urging south into the desert illnesses. The northern Syria Southern Turkey, that's what we're talking about here. So I give like Aleppo and was soon over in Iraq that whole area they just sent a marching south and then step three came in this was

the thing that kicked off the programme now that all the men with guns or been neutralised guys in them. Terry, now that These two potential trouble sides, man is a tune, are taken care of them to make sure that all of the armenian national level leaders were neutralised, and so all of these men who, in Constantinople, Smyrna and some of the other big cities, including rigorous Balochistan, the priest two's book, were reading today, were all arrested and deported down south as well and on. They can tell from the beginning that this was something probably a little bit different than what they had seen One speaker in the book: let's get a little eyewitness eye witness going back to the book. On the night of Saturday April, twenty fourth nineteen fifteen, the Armenians of the capital city, exhausted from the Easter celebrations that had come to an end, few days earlier were snore,

in a calm sleep mean on the heights of stamboul. A highly seek activity was taking place in the palatial central police station groups of Armenians had just been arrested in the suburbs and neighbour words of the capital blow colored military buses were now transporting them to central prison, we Earlier, the Constantinople chief of police had sent official sealed orders to all guard houses with the instruction that they not be opened till the designated day and that they be carried with precision and in secrecy. on this Saturday night, I, along with Friends were transport by a small steamboat, the night smelled of death The sea was rough and our hearts were filled with terror. We prisoners were under strict police guard not allowed, B to one another, we had no idea where we were going. We arrive

the central prison and he Behind gigantic walls and large bolted gates, they put us in a wooden pavilion in the courtyard, which was said by some to have once served as a school. We sat there quiet and sombre on a bare wooden floor under the faint light of a flickering lantern to stone. confused to make sense of what was happening from the silence of the night until morning, every few hours Armenians were brought to pursue the prison. And so behind these high walls, the jobs, and commotion increased as the crowd of prisoners became denser. It was as if all the prominent armenian fig public figures, assemblymen representatives, revolutionaries, editors, teachers, doctors, pharmacists, dentists, merchants, bankers and others, the capital city had made an appointment. meat in these dim prison cells.

some even appeared in night clothes and slippers. For those familiar faces, kept appearing the more the chatter abated And our anxiety grew. Before long, everyone look solemn, our hearts, heavy and full of worry about the an impending storm. not one of us understood why we had been arrested and no one could assess the consequences as the night. Our slipped by our distress mounted that for a few rare stoics, we are in a state of spiritual anguish, terrified of the unknown and longing for comfort. Right through till morning, new armenian prisoners arrived and each time we heard the roar of the military cars. We hurried to the windows to see who they were the new arrivals had contemptuous smiles on their faces, but when they saw hundreds of other well known, Armenians, old and young around them, they too soon.

Can the fear you're all searching for answers asking what of this meant and pondering our fate. These are all of the most famous Armenians in the country. These are the prominent priests, the it in the big cities. These are the people who everybody in our m everybody. Every Armenian in Turkey knew who these people were. They know my name for the most part so they wanted to take them out immediately and just them out of circulation at first and they did it secretly. They did it quietly. On April, twenty fourth in fifteen, which is armenian. Genocide remembrance take as this is where it really kicks off once they did that almost all the pieces were in place to begin the campaign. of mass killing, only things that remain were ah there's. There's this

organization called the special Innovation that it actually been set up for a previous war with the Russians they use it for a different purpose and augmented it with different people. Here they read about some ten in thousand violent convicts from prisoned include, thousands of murderers and rapists. And they freed them and promise I'm a pardon if they would ride with this group, called the special organization was put under the command of the most fanatical anti armenian young Turks and Their job was to arise. The Armenian population in an unrestrained manner. In a way we think about genocides. Again, we're very influenced by the Holocaust and where we think about these things, methodical, exact, disciplined systematic. You know I'd like ok, what's your number in check out often you know and arm, that's not how

This was carried out and this special organization is, is a good illustration of how that is, I mean, most genocides? When you look at millions of people dying in the civil war in the go or in Sudan. You say what has been happening: they don't have gas chambers, they're they're, not even gone around and individually. Shooting every person there you don't have to do that we have to do, is go to one village. not just kill round, but do it in the most horrific ways you can possibly imagine and make sure that a few people get away to go. Warn the next village over and then those people who are mostly women, children and old people cause the manner all fighting or you now, league, be there when the army shows up on the militia, shows up They say we gotta get out of here, so they take their kids and their grandparents and they run off into the Bush and defenceless women, children and old people die very quickly in the Bush will be die quickly in the desert to, and so this was part of the goal is to Out there and terrorize brutally.

And make sure that word that spreads to the other groups of these people get moving. Because if we can do that, they'll finnish themselves off, we won't have to go around. Don't you most of it, mostly ottoman soldiers there off at the front in this. And carried out by older gendarme, puts a police soldiers, ordinary men, tat people write like eyes like as well as by local villagers and kurdish tribes, that they couldn't conscript it if they wanted to and it was helped along by the level of just savagery that they would that they would perform these. These massacres in and um Finally, the once everything else was in place in this kind I've been systematically, I guess, over the over the period, the genocide was taking place, but the central government work to identify, governors and mayors of local areas that might be reluctant to do what they needed to do

and when they were identified, they were taken out. Some of them were thrown in jail and some of them were even killed, but a lot of just reassigned other places, one of them he started off talking about with a quote about what happened in Ankara and an example. Actually there was one where the guy who the valley the governor of of that province, he was and almost be Oscar, similar type he got together Two prominent Turks in the area had them right letter and signed a letter that he sent back to Constantinople, saying hey, look whatever gone anywhere else like Armenians, are actually cool like we know, they're not problem there loyal and select, I was just fired and sent off to some random spot in the empire And his his six sir came in and immediately went to work search. All the armenian homes for weapons took put them all away right down all their kitchen knives. Local jails. There were emptied all the convict return into paramilitaries. and once

everything was in place. They got to work here. You think about the if you're gonna write like a friggin psycho distort big movie right. We're gonna do you're gonna, take the. Going to take some of the local criminals, rapist murderer is near going to empower them and give them give them authority and total license and, in fact, encouraged them to be as brutal as possible, because that's part of the plan in a drive these people out into the desert, through Frutal It ends up. Looking like this gone back to the book, the prominent nurse lawyers, bankers merchants and armenian government affair officials. taken out on the road and the first caravan under the supervision of the police commissioner, the prison warden please, Rogers and officers overall, superintendence was assigned to sham said the son of two,

As a member of the Ottoman Parliament from Ankara although those in the caravan were the distinguished people of the city, a mark was put on their arms and their fees, shoes and coats were taken from them before they left the prison. Then these hundred fifty so or so were taken out to the foot of town together with a rope. the tools that would be used to kill these Armenians Axes Cleaver. Paddles, large, knives and other weapons were true. supported in four or five carriages directly before The caravan and following them were carriages filled with lime. To make sure that the crying and screaming of the people in this caravan would not be heard. Some of them Rogers were ordered to play trumpets and drums, as they left

Cora view the towns famous Tashkent section. Seven hours from the town, this dust, the caravan reached the forest they were met by the special organization. the free criminals used as anti armenian death squads, who possessed all kinds of weapons. A well known lawyer, Armagnac pleaded with the chief bandit group to be given as the sacred last right of one condemned to death permission to say a few words. He received permission. Then he said with unusual called heartiness and a cavalier indifference to death that surprised even either special organisation. It is no longer a secret that Brought us here to be killed.

want to ask you if you know why you are going to kill us later, the bandits answered that he didn't know why I'm not contain You should know that the high ranking officials committee, who gave you the orders to kill us did so solely to secure their personal gain They are leaving a stain on your history and laying waste to the fatherland early had he spoke these prophetic words when hundreds, Special organization sheets attached, attacked from all sides cutting and hacking off legs and arms, and next with axes and hatchets. Being them off partly or entirely and crushing heads with rocks. Then the bodies were thrown half alive dead or in the throes of debt.

To be prepared, ditches into prepared, ditches and covered with lime. those who are partly sticking out of the dirt and align made the heavy The arches resound with their cries of agony more dirt, Was poured on them until they were buried alive when Ass occur if the first caravan was finished, the second, van of more than three hundred and twenty people were sent forward transported to the park known as key Osh six hours, from town. These people were massacred in the same merciless manner. Dismembered bodies of the martyrs, were left on buried for fifteen days turkish. officers then oversaw their burial by armenian labour soldiers. After massacring all these people

special organization, came back to town. We, in clothes, shoes and other items they had taken from them. Everywhere. They boasted about how many Armenians they'd killed and how, in on Of ways they tortured and dismembered, those who are still alive and he mutilated corpses. Similar massacres took place other towns and villages with procure with particular cure cruelty in yours gap. First, all the armenian males of a town or city, and then the women and girls were bound together and taken on a foot on foot to deep valleys, a few hours away, accompanied by a turkish mob armed with access. There.

They were slaughtered like sheep, pregnant women and suckling babes included nuts. I went. over and over and over and over as one of the things about genocide, is she We're watch a movie about one. I read a decent book written about A genocide, though, usually find some dramatic persona, focus on, so that they have some kind of drama with it. Some story liner arc to follow, because when you get down to it, what it comes down to

we went to this village. We killed all the men we raped all the women, we robbed other stuff took their children as slaves, and then we laughed and then we went to the next village and we raped all the women we killed. All the man. We took the children, his slaves robbed other stuff, and we left in its that a hundred times a thousand times. You know you can't tell a Holocaust story or or write a holocaust book. That's just they marched ten thousand people to the edge of the mass graves they shot. Him naked need through men, and they took these. It just gets repetitive in the most grotesque way imaginable and that's what genocide is. The depravity of. It is easy to focus on, but in many ways the especially after it's been going on for months or years in the people themselves. The killers themselves have been almost brutalized, psychologically spiritually by what they are doing and it becomes routine for them so that things that it some individual

may have hesitated to do at first are not things that illicit any kind of hesitation anymore. That it just becomes this grind of death and you're one of the things that makes the armenian genocide a thing. That is, I guess you could maybe only compared to what happened in Rwanda in is enough. as the extent to which the general population was mobilize to participate on something like again like with the Germans. Ah, it is something you announced younger. During the second World WAR was stationed in Paris. He was sort of a cultural figures. I that points it is kind of theirs like technically with some kind of a minister of this, or that I can't remember, but really was there is like a cultural figure and he was in Paris,

one thousand nine hundred and forty two and one thousand nine hundred and forty one and he's writing letters to people trying to figure out like I keep hearing about all these things that are going on out in Poland. Now that he's like, what's going on out in the east, like I hear about bad things going on on these visits younger, I mean this is a guy that even the Nazis, like. Skype is great. You know there is a possibility that he was in on one of them. Fail this ass, an Asian attempts me when he knew about it at least, but Hitler himself even said. Nobody touches Ernst younger rabies, he's got this together. Roads Dormice, do you. I forget which podcast recover covered up that on, but I mean the skies Euro to the german people, yeah in so even him, a guy in that position serving as a minister in Paris at the time he's like trying to find out what's going on in the

Because the way that that was conducted in- and you know, it gets overplayed a little bit how secret it was and everything it did take a large number of people, including the Vermont, to pull off some of it. But, relatively speaking, this was something that was able to be kept from the german people and to be localize to the S ass, unlike in the people who were actually hand in handling it, Yet it's one thing to you know that ok, so the german populaces, let's say their helping round up juice, but that's what they think you're doing is rounding up to do furthermore, shipmaster be slave labor. They they many cases, didn't know the answer right, whereas here we have the that the turkish turkish ports, elation at large doing the tactics operation of genocide. Yes, and there is a quote from a great book and I've brought it up a few times another podcast there by Philip Grave Rich about the rwandan genocide. We wish to inform you that tomorrow be killed with our family,

and he has a quota mare there. When he's talking about what genocide is in a stick to the society, that's that's perpetrating it. And he has this line. That is always stuck with me says. Genocide after all, is a sore community building exercise and that stuck with me, as I was reading, all the material about the armenian genocide in the way that it specific waited was handled. One of them. that happened. Was these people who would be deported down south When I say that what I'm talking about his all the men would be killed, and the women, children and old people who were left would be put into a caravan they be sent down to March of the syrian desert on March? That would take about two months. And when they got to the end it was just. There was a death camp there where they would anybody who survived two months with you know no food because it would all be taken from them right away. You have they couldn't scrounge bugs out of the desert or eat dead bodies or whatever they had to do. They die of starvation. They couldn't dumb.

You weren't, a woman who could, ah you know, use your body or whatever to get a turkish soldier to give you a drink of water. Who would have yet to do than you died on the way and the right we're littered with bodies, and sometimes they would just massacre all of you along the way, but the ones who got the end would get to these death camps and the syrian desert and these are these routes. It doesn't take too to walk directly in a straight line from one place to their instinct and in place in the syrian desert. They would go on these winding route sometimes, and it wasn't just a drag it out so that people with I've exposure and starvation, they would actually bring them through different muslim villages. Different territories of kurdish Circassian, tribes. and when they would come through a given area. Just like we saw here But would be waiting form with weapons and they would attack and they would rape and they Take the women that they liked away as sex slaves. They would

the children away as slaves, they would rob them up they could, but it was only allowed for a certain period of time and very often turkish soldiers. This is actually would happen. Much of the time is they would sort of organized a little bit. We like well, here's a really really pretty armenian. All of you want her as a sex slave. Well, let's hold an auction and then the two soldiers get paid out? Well, you know we're gonna get a lot of the most valuable things that they haven't, so the turkish soldiers were getting paid. It was a way of sort of. It was a very crude and brutal form of wealth redistribution in a way everything that these Armenians had, they were being walked around these different villages and territory, so that each of the people in those places got their cut, and there would be almost you read accounts where it's almost like. There's a sense of expectancy almost like a party atmosphere when people know and other caravans coming through. What are we gonna get this time and arm

All these, these kurdish tribes, lotta these islamic villages, were armenian women and children tons of them in a lot of these places, a lot of them would just be taken, sometimes a slave, and when the novelty wore off after a few weeks for a few months, they would just be murdered or turned to turn away out. In the desert to go to go, wandering, die. But then the other thing that's happening when they're doing. That is that the state is take overtaken the opposite approach that didn't the Nazis took rate, which is that they are making all of these people complicit in this atrocity. Did the state is carrying out. It really does bind them together in the same kind of way that you know you like in a mafia movie, where you do a hit and all three of us who did it have to fire a shot to the body because we're all in this together now and it's a

you know that this this shared knowledge that we have all participated in this tremendous crime? They even forward deck and buying people together in a certain way, especially we ve all benefited from it. We ve taken slaves from it. We ve we robbed in that. Maybe the things in our house right now of the furniture and our house right now, maybe we're things that we that we took from me people when we killed them and that's how it went over and over and over and over again, you know, the thing that always the thing that is just the most unbearable to me is imagining like this. I have mentioned a few I'm sorry, but there is always a thing I can't get out of my head about. This- is that these rural women, children and old people, the men were gone already, and just imagining like your mother or your wife or your sisters or your kids,

Being marched along out into the desert by these people set upon, you know not borne up by a predator drone as bad as it is. They are being hacked down with machetes and axes, In in, as you saw it in the UN in one of them, I think the Ankara example that you read in in massacres that would take hours and hours and hours you take a long time. Some of these accounts six hundred and seventy eight thousand people at a time and in a ravine by hand- and that takes time- and so it's just screaming in the smell of feces and blood and people. You know you have just body parts hacked up over here. there there is just a big rape orgy and it's all right next to each other, while over searching your mother's pockets for any gold coin, she might have might have in its in that that, first far, as you can see there time

Were they did their one instance where they did sixty four hundred people was was the consensus estimate on it and it was the entire ravine. I mean you come over this ridge and it's just this entire ravine, hundreds of yards, and it is just bodies and they're- not dead, of this. This place was was witnessed by an American conquer from somebody from the american consular who wrote out saw it afterwards. These bodies are not people who died of starvation or thirst or exposure. These are people whose are just one big, massive gashes in mutilation and hacked limbs and women with their heads cut off. Who were laying their with their dresses thrown up over their head in their legs, spread with their heads could offer me does. This is the seas of the scenes that you see over and over and over and over and over to the point where

You know you read a book like the thirty year, genocide about it, where he really does take the time to get into each of the massacres in it becomes almost sickening Lee, nauseatingly boring in a way and arm, he's just it's hard to imagine. When you make it personal like that you're trying to imagine the helplessness that you would feel knowing that, does it happen to people that you cared about or being one of those people it would just it's it's it's hard to imagine We don't know, sir, we just have to imagine it. We can listen to when I witness the widow I witnessed this going back to the book. This is true by an american ambassador to the Secretary of State says this week before anything, was done to Bay Board the villages all around had been emptied and their inhabitants had become victims of the job.

dorms and Margaret bans These before the starting of the Armenians from Bay Board after weeks, prison impressed in our bishop had been hanged. With seven other notables. After these hangings, seven or eight other notables were killed in their own houses for refusing grew out of the city. Seventy or eighty other Armenians after being beaten, imprison, were taken to the woods and killed the Armenian Population of baby was sent off in three batches. I was among the third batch. My husband died eight years ago, leaving me and my eight year old daughter and my mother extensive possessions, so that we can show that we were living in comfort. Its mobilization began, the murk has commandant has been living in my house free of rent. He told me To go, but I, they must share. My wife, the fate of my people,.

I took three horses with me loaded with provisions. My daughter had some five lira pieces around her neck and I carried some twenty years and for diamond rings on my person. All else that we had was left behind our party left June. First, fifteen and arms going with us. The party number four five hundred persons we had got only two hours away from home. bands of villagers in large numbers with rifles guns axis et Cetera, surrounded us on the road. And robbed us of all. We had. The giant arms, took my three horses and sold them to local Muslims pocketing the money they took, my money that from my daughter's neck also, all our food. After this, they separated the man one by one and she them all within six or seven days, every mail above fifteen years old by

side were killed, two priests. One of them over ninety years of age. These bandsmen took all the good looking women and carried them off on their horses. Very many women and girls were thus carried off into the mountains, among them my sister, whose one year old baby they threw away a Turk, picked it up and carried off. I know not where my mother, till she could walk no further. dropped by the roadside on a mountain top, we found on the road. Many of those who had been in previous sections carried from Bay Board. Some women among them were killed and their husbands and sons. We came across some old people, little infant still alive, but in a pitiful condition, having did their voices away.

We were not allowed to sleep at night in the villages but lay down outside under cover of the night indescribable Aids were committed by the gendarmes Bandsmen villagers, many of us died from hunger and strokes. Others Left by the roadside, too feeble to go on. One morning we saw fifty to sixty wagons with about thirty turkish widows whose husbands had been killed in the war, and these were going to Constantinople. One of these women made a sign to one of the gene darns to kill a certain Armenian whom she pointed out. the giant arms asked if she did not wish to kill him herself. She said why not. and drawing a revolver from her pocket shot and killed him. each one of these turkish. How new? Which is a turkish lady,

had five or six armenian girls of ten or under with her boys, works never wished to take. They killed all of whatever age. The worst and most unimaginable horrors were reserved for us at the banks of the Euphrates, mutilated bodies of women, girls and little children made everybody shudder Bandsmen, we're doing all sorts of awful deeds to the women and girls that were with us, whose cries up to Heaven. at the Euphrates, the bandsmen and gendarmes through into the river, all the remaining children under fifteen years old, those It swim were shot down as they struggled in the water. After seven days we reached ers indian

Not an Armenian was left alive there. The turkish women took my daughter and meat. The bath and their show Smith showed us many other women and girls that it accepted. Islam. Between their and indeed rays, fields and hillsides were dotted with swollen and blackened corpses that filled and found the air with their stench. On this road, we met six women wearing the ferajji. And with children in their arms. but when the gendarmes lifted their veils, they found that they were men in disguise, so they shot them after thirty two days journey

We reached Constantinople, one of the things that would happen on the trail of tears on this on this road to death. Was you know by the time you got a week out of any of these cities where people were deported. a lot of the american consulate, people in other diplomats and missionaries who are there, including by the way this is really worth mentioning, haven't, brought up yet a lot of the people, diplomats who were reported on this in Brokeback about it and that provide a lot of material we have today. These are german diplomats, austrian diplomats. These are people who are allied to the Ottoman empire in this or who were writing back. But a lot of these things. There is one memoir. It was written about it by thy name, raw, failed them Alice who was event when mercenary, who was actually serving as a turkey as it is a mercenary officer as a major in the turkish military. and he wrote a lot about it as well.

And one of the things that you that you here over and over again his how, by the time, a week out of the city. All these people are naked. All their closer been taken so their walking in July and August. Maybe in the syrian desert twelve hours a day or more, you know and they're. Just blistered up from the sun did not have any food. They don't have any water anything they can scrounge from landscape or bag off some or prostitute from some turkish soldiers, and that's all they got something. Maybe they re the hide away on their personal, so their wasting away naked in the sun, and then they would stop at night and Maybe they would get some rest, but more often than not the night time was the worst time because they would stop for the evening and as ever, they didn't have ten. Most of the time what I would have all been taken from the middle of any kind of shelter, so they're just sitting out in the weather and if there was a village near by or tried nearby or sometimes just the soldiers and

how's. This was their time to blow off a little bit esteem, and so they would show up, and they would just be walking through the encampments of all of these women and children and elderly people whose who stopped, and they would just take their picked for rape. They would take slaves. Sometimes they would just torture, four for entertainment, their stories of pretty armenian women being stripped naked and forced to dance for turkish soldiers and when they weren't please with their performance, they just doubts and on kerosene and watch them burned to death for their entertain their story after story after story after story like this, and not a bunch of people from one caravan we're talking from all over the country throughout the entire period of this going on or something you know, there's, maybe you can get people to go put a bullet in somebody's head for their country. You can meet The play play up that angle of it to get him to do something like that.

You ve, got a really engender a level of extraordinary hatred. I think to to get people to do some of the things that were being done here on the spot. The regular people that doesn't go so much for the special organization. I think I think, maybe in in one of the unravelling episodes we did. I I asked a question like if you had bar in town in any city in America, wherever that's the bar, where in there there's this room and there's a person in there, and you just do whatever you want to that's the gimmick at the bar like I might not go there, you guys might not go there, but I don't think it would be empty. I think it rarely be And when you talk about it, what if you had that in a prison that would be a lively joint? I mean that's what you had going on here. You had these caravans of women, children and old PETE Being marched down into the desert, very often by God, who were from the special

innovation, guys who were convicted murderers and rapists, who and given complete and total licence from their government to do whatever they want. And now you stop it nighttime and your board. You ve been on the road. For a week riding in the hot sun on your horse guarding these people. And what are you gonna spend your evening and away a lot of him spent? It was just again he just it's one of those things that, like reading a book about it, really really can't do justice until you really to be as close your eyes and try to put yourself in the position of these. In the position of a mother who already watch two of her children die of exposure, and then has her baby grabbed by a leg and thrown in a river in she's gang rapes and she's gone, began raved again and again and again for the next two months as she walks in this road,

or until she can't take it anymore and and commit suicide. Basically that was the situation of hundreds of thousands of people being marched down into the desert, like this Well, you said story after story after story, here's some of them going back to the Balkan. You mentioned that german diplomats, here's a german diplomats The teachers of the American School and car per week Can we tortured before they were killed. Two professors had their hair and beard ripped out, while in prison in or to extort confessions and were hung by their hands for days at a time. Another professor when insane, when he was forced to watch Armenians, being beaten to death Governor himself took part in the torture of another. Professor.

The senior executive president, beat until he was exhausted and said whoever loves his religion, and his people may contain you beating, he's another. Eyewitness was seven years old at the time we afterwards that, together with seventeen other armenian young men, they had massacre and by night thrown them under the bridge. Thus, when we were ported. There were no males left in our family look away, my five ants endures or major: they cut them off their heads, Impaled their heads with their bayonets to show them to us, and then they thought your corpses and the Euphrates. We found only half the body of my mother's aunt, em

buried her in the earth. Here's a thirteen year old eyewitness works came and drove us all out of the village. They were forcing us to March with whips, strokes. They tied our hands behind us. They disrupt does totally and we stood naked ass. The day we were born, they broke ones hand another's arm still another's leg with axes and daggers behind. ass. A little boy whose arm was broken was crying in calling for his mother, The mother had already died by an axe. They came in the morning, assembled us and started once more to kill and drop the bodies in the water oh the cave, the river copper was flowing. They caught

someone's head another's leg. Still another's hand and all these Schuman parts were piled up upon one. Neither on the ground, someone not yet dead, but had their bones shattered and their hands severed. Some were crying others squeaking there was, odour of blood on the hand and hunger on the other. people who were still alive started to eat the flesh of the dead. One of the effects of this was a very strange demographic dynamic that happened in Turkey in years. Afterwards, it was actually a book. Tat came out provision, the two thousands of the nineties when it actually came, it must have been the two down.

And was written by a turkish women living in caught up in Istanbul. Now her grandmother pulled her aside when she was very old and told her her life story and turn Her grandmother was an armenian than she had been take as a small girl away. We mentioned earlier one of the one of the turkish women who were heading back to Constantinople, with like a with a stable of six hundred and seventy eight little armenian girls and they were taking them back to be their house servants and that's how her grandmother was taken. She was taken back into a house that was,

She ended up in a place that was pretty civilized. They pretty much just raised her. You know she was kind of a servant, but they didn't abuse her anything, and so she was raised in this house and became turkish. You remember who she was, but everybody thought she was a jerk. Her granddaughter thought she was a jerk, and so after she told her granddaughter her life story, she wrote the she wrote the who wrote the book and it was kind of a sensation and turkey, because to this day he still denies the genocide, and so I mean it's something that they will talk about that a little bit, but that aspect of it, the taking of children and women, the mass enslavement of these was. It was a huge section. It's almost gosh man, a you would almost think that I can almost seems like a fate worse than death, the people who have

your husband, your parents, your kids, your entire community, your entire people and now they're gonna. Take you as a slave, most self. Most often when you talk about the women there being in a way is sex slaves and very often there being taken away not by not that this would make it. I guess any better, but they're not being taken away by some turkish note, notable to go beyond his Harriman Constantinople, there being taken away by some some tribesmen out into his tent in the desert, and that's where she's gonna live now until they get tired of her and it's maybe not just for. I am making a lot of times. These were women who would be kept to be shared with friends company is like a matter of hospitality, you know this kind of thing was going on and you're talking about, I mean it's hard to really say, but you're talking, tens of thousands at least of armenian women and children taken away this way, maybe hundred maybe over a hundred thousand the total number of das between one one point: five million

but the number of people who were taken away as slaves and just kind of melted into the population or were murdered later. That's what happened to a lot of these people, who was it was in the ten released. The tens of thousands sex slavery in the Ottoman empire that this isn't something they just sort of came out of nowhere because of the chaos it was going on, there was actually just last night. I was brush up on some of this. I came across in New York Times, article written in eighteen, eighty, six by a journalist to manage to. Ah he had a yeah. He had a guide their in Constantinople that was helping women. They dressed him can a beard and said he looked like you know. He was from the area, we had some money and they got him into some of these places where they were selling women, and this was in eighteen, eighty six none of this was going on and they would they were mostly so I'll, always christian women. Usually you know you can't enslave Muslim, sometimes seen people do what they do, but, generally speaking, that's what happened and so would be Circassia. And slobs and armenians- and I sometimes Assyrians and Greeks,

and so this was something that I regret, that the Sultan himself, the way the Sultan reproduced was yet a harem of hundreds and hundreds of women, and all of them were slaves taken from christian lands and they would be kept in a cell in like a very specific part of the palace, and they would be guarded by black out like black African Unix So we just again give you some idea, like the society we're talking about here, the king has hundreds, of slave women captains. calls and like his own Palestine, not allowed interact with anybody else in their guarded with their guarded by Unix, who were castrated, specific before the purpose I mean this is a two different we're not talking about you, know the Bundestag or the english parliament, or something else two different different time in a different place, and we do have to remember that. You know what I just met New York Times article in eighteen, eighty six and only twenty one years before was when we got rid of to tell slavery in the United States,

was a different time, and there are a lot of things go on back then, but there's a little bit of exotic strangeness. To something like that that I think kind of shocks us a little bit, and this idea that you, you could take a specially non islamic women as spoils of war and sex slavery. We saw that reignite when ISIS mocking rampage through everywhere they were taken the disease and everybody so they found it wasn't muslim as sex slaves, and it was horrifying to us. But you know in this part of the world specially when you get out into the countryside. Were things don't change much very rapidly. Did this was something that was not a huge diversion from what was normal for people, and so once was the opportunity. It just happened at scale, and you had tens of thousands again, maybe over a hundred thousand armenian women and children who just disappeared into kurdish villages and arm into turkish homes.

Set us up for a dearth or yeah there's or was one of the main cash when you even call place like that, you want to call it a death camp, but that sort of makes you think of the nazi example where this is like a factory of death in it, and it wasn't it wasn't that you had these these caravans that were being wound through the desert to be robbed and raped and killed in enslaved ass. They went and just eyewitness report after I witnessed report describes the road on the way down is just littered with corpses and body parts everywhere you go any time, there's a hill, you look over the other side of it off the road and it's just filled with bodies. Back there. The rivers are choked with bodies and body parts, but some of the people survived some of the people just figured it out.

You just said people who were alive started to eat the flesh of the dead people who, having had nothing to eat for a month. Will I will do you lose your mind when you start to when you start to starve and die of thirst and exposure in some? pomade made it and for those who made it tell was waiting for. You know the place that they got to at the end of the line. One of em called. There's or is basically big open air cages that they just pen, people and there was no food and there was no water and there was no medicine and they just stay in there and they died, and now You know this was in Auschwitz with double razor wire fences. You know multiple layers, deep people could kind of get there you know if you have an inability to do if he knew somebody who- became down there to give you a blanket her some food, you mean,

We have a little bit longer than everybody else, but people were dying by the five hundred, the thousands, the two thousand today just dying of disease and exposure and hunger and thirst and periodically massacre numb. Sometimes when another caravan would get there in there, just simply wasn't any room for any one else. They would either take that caravan are most often they would take people who were already degraded near the point of death and it would be like, while we're moving into the next location. you go in south again everybody back on the road and there was nothing south. They just marched him out there, people who are already right on the point of death. They would march them further and syrian desert. They would just wander out there and die or be met, the scenes in theirs or that are described, are really something. Beyond I mean it's a Hieronymus, Bosh painting. You know this is from the book

No pan can possibly convey the suffering and misery of these exiled Armenians, persecuting wanderers, surrounded by savage gangs of police soldiers riding thousands of wagons and carts, and on b, The burden, though, for on foot and many of those bear like dried leaves driven by the wind they pass through this soul. Blue. The passage and on to the arid deserts, others or, to die without bread without water, with a shroud and without a grave. barely had the men from these regions, been separated from the women and put on the the exile when they were mercilessly slaughtered and their corpses thrown into the rivers are values as food for vultures and other wild animals. the young brides and virgins were yanked from

Embrace of their crying mothers and taken turkish herons. Even ten year old girls, were subjected to all manner of savage, unbearable debauchery. The older women who managed door, the terrible hardships of the road were taken to dare sore. were brutally slaughtered during the summer Eighteen, sixteen here we encounter two young armenian engineers who had been in charge with overseeing the work of an armenian labour. Battalion interior as they told me how nineteen fifteen particular in September or October, approximately eighty thousand Armenians of both sexes were encamped pretence made from bedsheets in rags on the plane near the valley stretching all the way to the

Spacious swampy, fuelled by the man you're railway station. Six hundred to seven hundred were dying daily from hunger for, and fever. When suddenly, a lengthy nocturnal autumn rain came and finish the task left unfinished by the human beasts people were stuck in the standing pool of water for several days. Civil cold in sir ensued, and none of them had adequate shelter, clothing or food? They froze to death by the FAO. thousands falling like the autumn leaves or they died from dysentery, diarrhoea, bleeding and other waves of overcrowding. the field with soon covered with mounds of unvaried bodies under makeshift tents, entire families ridden were reduced to corpses.

Hunger and cold, with no one to bury them. nor could those Armenians who found their dead kinfolk, find any spades or hope to bury them with and behold. Suddenly, morning to bring this widespread and heart trend. trending wretchedness to its ultimate perfection, the direct, of the exiled caravans and hundreds of police soldiers bearing whips and clubs, surrounded the poor people already at death's door and ordered them to get immediately on the road. It is humanly possible to imagine the hue and cry the begging and pleading and the chaos that prevailed in and around those thousands of tents. The tents were there. Taken down and the portal Goods in bundles, representing the deportees last bits of property were assembled, but they had neither art nor wagons, nor beasts of burden to carry them.

Lamentation then began many. Would leaved loved ones who were sick in their death, throes lying on the ground, uncared for and abandoned the dying aghast beg not to be abandoned in the open fields as food for hungry, wolves and corpse, hyenas that proud the night, but they had no time to think the military, police and You're in minor officials fell upon them without pity human feeling. They struck the hapless and confused left and right, hitting them everywhere. Eyes burst open schools were crushed faces were covered with blood and new wounds were opened up. Nobody cared, nobody took pity on them. The survivors, seeing that they had no option but to leave, took down and folded

thousands of tents and in an instant throwing them over their shoulders, got on the road, leaving their ill and dying loved ones behind. The wretched armenian mothers who are unable to take their under Children too, six years old children who had fallen ill from starvation, extreme cold and the hardship of the long road, half dead or in the throes of death had believed them. On top of the already dead cheerfully The eye witnesses told us how Two large mounds of corpses of thousands of armenian children rose up among them numerous children who had not yet died and who extended their small hands searching for their mothers. eyes of these emaciated and neglect Did angels bore a look of pleading and protest

Directed towards their mothers and toward God and from there half dead lips, some of them cried that sacred word mommy. For the last time. Since their mothers could not possibly take the children along in a few hours, the little ones would be dead and would have be left on the road. Anyway, it was apps better that all of them, the offspring of the same wretched and persecuted nation laid down, and Keeps in one place- maybe God and men would finally have pity and see that this were suffering enough, set of half dead children mothers carried on their bosoms, the weakest and most exhausted of the children still alive until they too had to be abandoned.

the angelic souls of thousands of armenian children were rising to Heaven to tell God of their beloved mothers, endless sufferings and misfortunes. Those remaining in the caravans of armenian exiles moved on and disappeared into the mountains. There was an all confessing silence as night came, then the howling and yelping of hungry, wolves, jackals and foxes, and occasionally the faint screams of armenian children being eaten for the animals would eat the live ones first

that that were wrapped up? What we're gonna, copper from the book and and of course, obviously, I only ready tiny percentage now to to get the Ball- across to gain some kind of understanding of of what took place, and I mean what what can be called for. All practical purposes is, I don't know if this is a thing to say, but this. Was for the most part. This was a successful genocide. I mean it damn near as fully successful genocide, meaning we got rid of this group of people forever. Yes, it.

Is that it was their Armenians and other countries. Obviously so the people survived, but there are no Armenians in Turkey today and in fact, Christians in general and again I don't mean to dilute the armenian experience here, but it is worth mentioning that this was something the Turks were attacking Christians across the empire. At this period, the killed three hundred thousand assyrian Christians. They killed countless Lebanese Christians and after the war, when out of turn, came back and they were fighting in the west against the Greeks he killed and then he killed three hundred thousand.

excrete Christians and then expelled another million to a million and a half three or four million Armenians in Turkey proper before the war started and when it when it was all over by one thousand nine hundred and seventeen really when, when the genocide kind of died down, maybe tens of thousands crawled out of their hiding places when from three or four million to maybe a few tens of thousands And you have to call it in a way successful. Because for us all you know from one standpoint: Turkey got what it wanted. There are no more Christians, Armenians in our country, I am from you know and from another angle, didn't really pay for it. Some individuals didn't get will get to that, but come after the one of private, the great tragedy of the twentieth century, here's another one of,

consequences was the russian Revolution in nineteen, seventeen, the Bolshevik the Communist, take over Russia. Nineteen, seventeen and pull them out of war, and so the Armenians, who have been hiding behind russian wines. where a lot of the Armenians in Eastern Anatoly retreated just get by the russian Army of the russian Army, packed up and lack thereof, the war and so you have all of these Armenians now right. into what we consider today. Armenia proper, the Republic of Armenia, is wide open. It is wide open over there and there is still a turkish army in the field that is fully prepared to finish the job and they are driving up into Armenia, their driving toward the capital of Armenia. Yerevan

Drawing about a turkish army, tens of thousands, strong, fully equipped military force world were won a military force and you ve got about twelve hundred armenian soldiers, and then you ve got a bunch of refugees in older men and everything else who were given guns, clubs, anything they could find which is not much and their toll. Do we flee up into Georgia up further into the Soviet Union depending on how bad this gas, or are we going to be going to make a stand here and that's what they did. Where people in Yerevan lots and lots of refugees that was in overcrowded place. They had a lot of people, but the only again had about twelve hundred train soldiers and they were the ones that went and got. but he organise they rang the Bell of the church bells of Yerevan to muster everybody. You had women and children, supply lines everywhere. Getting everything in place. You men, digging defensive fortifications. You, an old men serving is like sick,

operators with flags and things up on. You know upon towers, everybody was participating here and the Turkish army pushed up within you just about within visual in just over the horizon of the capital of Armenia and they got to a place. There were three areas where they fought, but the main one that people remember today there's a great big monument there and a great mused armenian history, museum called so dark about, and Thankfully, this french guy, it's not a about a very well known battle. If you look in general histories, they'll talk at all talk about it, but they won't get much into the details. Thankfully, there was his french guy back in the seventies historian, who went back into the record. He got everything I mean he's a military historian it. So I read that book and me he really gets down to like the order of battle on both sides. In everything, else enemy, you're, really talking about a fully equipped turkish army against a ragtag group of refugees, led by a few train and ceos. Basically,

and on thank fully. They did have some armenian Russians who wants the Soviet Union, pull them out of the war they were like. Well, you know my colonel in the soviet army. Now I guess, back to Moscow or wherever there calling us. Or am I going to stay here and fight, and so some of them state and help lead the effort as well, and this ragtag group put a halt its order about to the Turkish. Its and really I mean there's a historian american historian- I'm not not armenian, but unjust. A historian of the Ottoman Empire who said that if they had lost that battle then the word Armenia today would just be a curious historical, footnote. We'd, probably still have Armenians. Obviously just we had Jews for a long period of time when there was no such thing as Israel, but that's what we would be talking about. You know I didn't preserve armenian independence at the time they tried. You know the one of things that happened. Wasn't that brief period after they did put a stop to them: Georgia, Armenia and

Azerbaijan, which are all right, they're, clumped together. None of them want to be part of the Soviet Union and at the time they want to be. Of the Ottoman Empire either so they formed a little alliance to try to defend themselves, but as soon as things got little bit tricky, Georgia was pretty quick to be You know what we're gonna go. The Soviet Union and answer by John was very quick to be like you know what we're Muslims to and they kind of stab the Armenians in the back and attacked them from behind and so the Armenians than at that point had to cut a deal with the Soviet Union, and Armenia became a Soviet Socialist Republic as well, and so our key out of the frying pan into the fire there. You know, although I mean you know, the thing is one of the one of the things it did happen: Armenia, obvious You know they were the same soviet tyranny as everybody else to some degree, but they did understand the Soviets even so

article as they were. They understood a certain degree that these people were not going to give up their national or religious identity, no matter what we'd have to finish the job that the Turks started. If we were going to accomplish that, and so they really didn't pushed that as hard as they did in some other places, which is why unity this the armenian church was able to survive and then to this day once they achieve their independence. Finally, Now when the Soviet Union fell, everything was in place there and are you not say what you want about. the downside of I don't know what you would call it now. Laser more just sort of that. You know Armenians, one of the things you find a bottom and I love about Armenians, Greek, really like Eddie the turanian peoples. Is our meeting love me an Armenian and it makes It makes him so much fun. You know you just dumb,

like Armenians in America, there almost a perfect immigrant group in a sense where they are their their american counterparts. yeah you can look at the car. Dashings would be like those items Those are Americans as much as George It contains an American. You know I just days they fully adopt, unlike their down there, military. They do everything and fully assimilate integrate, and yet they love Armenia and they love the armenian church and they love there. people and their history and there's no tension there. You know they there they can. Fully patriotic Americans or in France, is love. Armenians in France, for example, and they never lost their connection with with their own history and in their own traditions, and I think they re really walked outline really well. Will it it doesn't have to be mutually exclusive to be proud. Where you from their proof that were proud of, where you're from the other proof that it doesn't, and they didn't know now

didn't really forget. Now they didn't forget you're wondering what had happened. One of the things that happened rate is another consequence of the russian revolution. Is you have all of these? by the time, by the end of the war, everybody knows what was going on in Turkey is a year the Should the Americans and everybody else who were looking at the Ottoman empire. Now it's just the Republic of Turkey, writers, the war in Turkey, went on until nineteen twenty four, the bridge, the British Did the Ottoman Empire they occupied Constantinople, but there are still large military force commanded by the great man. There's no other way to put it to you. You know he was. He was a hard man, do a lot of had things in the field and did what he had to do for his country. I suppose one way to look at it, but Kemal Ataturk, the Father of the Turks father, the modern turkish republic. He was in command. He was ass, he was he was

Euro Gallipoli. The man who had a fight knew at a command very smart, very tough, and he was still out there, and so he moved the capital from Constantinople, where the British had established themselves out to Ankara where it is now, and he get fighting. You know he at first was pushing up in Caucasus. To you with the idea that, if you get past Armenia and Georgia, can you keep them northeast their vicious Turkic, peoples, all the way over to western China that points. So there was this like pan turkish idea that may be okay, we lost all north african, whatever Maybe you can have. The Arabs were always kind of trouble anyway. Why were we doing that? Maybe this is the empire, this PAN Turkish Empire, the Armenians is Sardar about, put a stop to that, and then the Soviet Union established itself so that wasn't going to work. And so they retreated back and eventually they went back and everybody else out of their country in harm established the Modern Republic of Turkey in

Kemal Ataturk was. He was a young turkey. As a member of the young Turks, he had broken with the triumvirate a little bit over over, in a military reasons, over the years, but he was still part of these people in a lot of the young Turks and even the Committee of Union in progress, the core group that was really carrying all this out, they were still there? They were still in the government. There was no real, we d not suffocation after the Second World WAR, and there was really not a whole that going on some of the very very main people they fled? The day day I fled the country, and so this wasn't carried out, but they were tried in absentia, some of the more sense to death, some of the main architects. But after a little while everybody realised that Turkey is gonna, be kind of strategically important. Now that we have this huge threat of the Soviet Union looming up here and so like it or not. Working have the kind of find a way to like bring turkey back into the fall in Turkey, with NATO by the nineteen Fifty's

and it was considered a strategic necessity to just kind of forget about all this. You get all the way up to the nineteen eighties, and there was a young an American scoured Susan Blair, who found a bunch of the american Consulate documents that people had people in even know about these, yet because nobody was studying. It was not something People really want to look into as Turkey. We have nuclear weapons in Turkey's supremely Port now lie in the cold war. Nobody wants to look at this and so nineteen. Eighty Susan Boyer finds all these documents by people like Leslie Davis, describing everything that they ve seen out there and she says. Will this is incredible rights it up as a book trade Papa. She can't get it published anywhere. She's told by major publishers at this is too controversial. We can't touch this and the thing is those people. right, because she finally found a publisher that publisher started getting bomb threats, they started getting

a threat she and her family had to go into hiding for awhile because of the turkish government. There play around like arm. Have you seen that movie that promise it's it's? A great man it's about the armenian genocide and it's a really really good movie, but you wouldn't know that I'd. Maybe this is change low, but now you wouldn't know that by going on like rotten tomatoes, the first night, your first day that that thing was released, there were like five thousand like one star terrible horrible, worse movie ever reviews and like all of them, had kind of broken English, and whatever else I mean you see that and then immediately afterwards, literally like Next year there was another armenian genocide movie that was put out. It was sponsored by the turkish government and it was just it's on worth watching for just me again the madness of the propaganda. I mean you really have to like. Imagine a movie about the Nazis in the Holocaust, where all the S S officers and Heinrich Similar, and everybody else are just portrayed as like they're just really

to help all these Jews, but like the Jews they just They ran off out there in Poland in something happened to me. When I tell him it's that bad, it's really that bad and it is like a state effort ever since then yeah. It was happening at the time they were their water. This was carried out with burn after reading telegrams and things like that. Some of them were preserved, but through the twentieth century all the way up to the present day, there's Turk still going through all the archives and coming through billing shred that trend that had been doing it for centuries. It is because they I mean look, this is this is maybe one of a darker things to point out about it is they know they know the deck at work. You know people forget things, people forget everything. It doesn't matter what you did or how bad it or how many people were affected. They have this idea that, if you just keep denying it,

keep going everybody a liar, keep just do what ever you gotta do the give it a century. All we have to do is survive. You know if you, if you looked like this, was something that was really prominent at the time, right? You re all the Rio, the writings of Lenin, for example, and trot uninstall any and all the Bolsheviks, and you see the same strain and Hitler where they all stood that we're about to do something that is horrific and barbaric, and it is going to be condemned by everyone and we better not lose this war, but if we don't, if we pull it off and all we have to do, is survive and then waded out and the storm will pass and on it passed very quickly, like I said, Partly inspired by the armenian example specifically because even by then.

thirty years later, twenty five years later that point when it got started even by then he could say and make good point with it. Who today remembers the Armenians This is twenty five years after his own country was allied to the Ottoman Empire as execute, one of the most thorough and complete genocides in history. Well you could say there were some level of vengeance on it and dumb we're not gonna. About that now, but we are going to talk. bout operation, nemesis on the on Lynn Park asked, which we also do a little take, a little bit different and a little bit deeper and will do that. We'll talk about operation nemesis. Will you can listen to a right. Now it some Jacko, unravelling podcast work, Their own, I gotta, go deep. Well we're gonna go deep on on this operation.

That carried out. It was a. Would you call a campaign of assassination, that's exactly what it was in the end. It was done by Bunch of Armenians without any state support. You know, if you think about everybody, looks books it like what the Messiah did. The Israelis did after the Second World WAR, they hunted down. A thousand fifteen hunt Nazi officers, s officers around the world- and that's you know, that's that's good for them, but the Armenians, Eurogroup, people who were doing this completely independently without any state support. This group of hard core militants who wanted these people down off around the world and essentially took out the entire ottoman government that was running this during during a period all the high ranking people. There is one other thing I want to close with a kind of forgot about earlier

because there is too, on the whole question of turkish denial ism. This is a quote from a letter written by the leader of the special organization, a guy named behind the insecure, and this was a letter that was found fairly fairly recently last few decades. he's right near the beginning of it. He said the Committee of Union in progress, as the bearer of the nation's honour, has decided to free the homeland from the ignore inordinate ambitions of this occurs at nation and to assume the responsibility for the blemish that will stain ottoman history. In this regard, the committee, which cannot forget the countries, or an unhappy history and whose cup runneth over with unrelenting desire for revenge, has to say to annihilate all Armenians living within Turkey, not to allow a single one to remain and has gone The government brought authority in this regard on

question of how this killing and massacring will be carried out. The central government will give the necessary instructions to the provincial governors and army commanders. of the unionist regional representatives would concern themselves with following up on the matter in all The places where they are were found and would ensure that not a single Armenian would receive protection or assistance, not a lot of room for doubt their evil. With that echo Charles? Maybe you could do a little decompress old school decompression scenario now ruffles arabic gear on. I'm not sure that I can do that right this moment, but jeez Ben You kind of hard to listen to all that and then even that last sport and then be like yeah by the way did little to get back to lifting waitin drink.

Well, if you remember, like, I think, the very first time I actually needed the decompression, I want to say it was podcast number twelve entangled it didn't take long, but after podcast number twelve where we were. We talk him, the Highlander in prison, and you he's gettin too good by the Japanese is having the the maggots the gang Green Flash off with his legs in order to survive, he's gets put, the medical camp eventually gets put out to sea, while he's no the whole of a ship with were, however, many hundreds of prisoners. cheating all over themselves in in their own urine and sweating and starving to death and dying, and then they get hit by a cause. They cause a Japanese didn't mark their prison ships, so they had hit by a torpedo, and most of the guys die, but he somehow gets thanks recovered, oh, but there, but recovered by a japanese ship and so

from his japanese ship, he gets taken back to show and he is stationed in a prison camp in the outskirts of Hiroshima, so That was the first time where, when I got done reading some of his, you know some of that book I said, I echo you for a little while why freaking, decompress so world can be horrible place and the best thing we can do is maybe make our little part of the world a little bit better. When you got her suggestions. Well, let's start with our self mentally and physically don't. You know I'll, give you a hard time about your job. Being super easy. Get this One time you gotta earn new challenges, will districts challenges, Transitions well either way.

We keep ourselves together mentally fitness, speaking of which still Cooper always impressive, with how deep you can just sorted out go for time. Well, we're gonna say you have Lou ways to go to school on I'm very supportive of either. we are working out were reading, not as much as delicate run about tell me what I can do to maybe too maybe catch up. Ok, will you could have Gets and he's got skills are transition, vague, its work on the transition victor, either it yes, we'll work it out were reading, would do another good stuff for ourselves, so we can provide good stuff, for others can make our little world a better place and they it spreads, and before you know it ain't that a better place whirling in some arms in full support at all this while work. Now we may need some supplement nation, probably Phelps, diamond start with discipline. Go my mental and physical support will say, and we

of essentially in energy. During you don't like it still thought to say that he is you, when you say essentially an energy drink. What we think in the stigma rethink stigma, we're thinking what what's not just the stigma, a reality, a reality, as we say energy drink, your talking about high sugar content, ridiculous, caffeine, bunch chemicals to preserve the whole scenario, we're talking I want to talk in energy we're talking poison year. That is the association for sure so well, talking about this. When I talk about that, in fact, I don't think we're ever gonna be talking about well, technically, we're talking about imply, I'm talking about discipline, gold, Aren, T de ready to drink can of. corn quote essentially in energy, and this is what I'm talking about. No chemicals, no sugar, taste good and it's good for you,

you drink to raising our boy. You know we're friends, I'm gonna name in any names. import, he used to be might still be nothin but they'll get addicted to like energy drinks, we'll get addicted to meanwhile, with that addiction, you getting less healthy, lesser evil like it. When you drink three over me, like men, that pro Is near him in my this robbing me it straight up straight up yet, but this need drink guess what your help here go get addicted if you won't get addicted to something good for, are getting addicted to carrots. You came to me. Can I know that's bad, who I know that I actually learn that one try my whole white bag of carrots and then realised and an eye out you whatever it was three hours later as googling. Can you eat too many carrots and Google said yeah your body? Can digest too many carrots and guess what your body does? Not pretty you don't eat, he carrots, but you can't drink a lot of discipline and not to go

Deep into the too much of a good thing concept, but even technically the most vital nutrient. If you clean water, you can drink too much earlier. Com, drowning, not, and I think tat, in the inhaler, yet the blessing about to go energy drinks, I was one of those deuce bags. I was pound three hundred milligrams of capping. I came in here one time with one of those things and Chuck was like what are you drinking What are you doing you're so as I switched over a while back and here's where I was we're like, I always thought that I needed a huge amount of caffeine. I've drink one of those three hundred milligrams things and after like an hour, I was just again it was like. I guess I need six hundred million raw. I guess I need cocoa, the opposite of the truth because actually switched over these things, which are well at ninety five, eight, the another grams in order- and I only need one of them- then I hit one of those things in its good, maybe I'll drink. Another one forget something new in the evening.

There's a bunch of things that counter that care. For you, you you, when you ve got sugar, narrative, ok, cool you're, gonna, get insulin head, you gonna, bring you back down, plus we got from Abronia bromine in here things that that help that caffeine in go helps. It can so you don't need to o d on your last. No need a real Scott joint warfare for your joints. We krill oil for your overall general goodness over. Just general goodness, and a world gets get yourselves and crude oil we got, supplying go in a powder form by the way that the Jackal Palmer iced, tea combination. I think on both having on everything. That's the best, but that's what I like this tat. I was mixing that up and at freaking could tasty little tree to preach Jitsu scenario milk protein protein by catch up

peanut butter are you down there you go to how you are we doing in Dakota, mired technique, making pudding or whatever the one was the rest. I think it's just like less ok, whatever, but at any point in something like butter when I had a rich reassess Dakota on that one day, I didn't you can make where you can make all kinds tasty things with mark stories have marked, as is which is also If you think that peanut butter, maltese peanut butter is frequently wishes, that thing is delicious, I will drink it, just like as a normal treat normal does yet it facilitates the dichotomy of mark The dichotomy mark, as you like, I want something different, but also won t something the less we are. I think we have a title for the episode. That's my next, so we got warrior get stuff we got tee and by the way, this stuff, You get the drinks it at a Walla EAST Coast.

These coasts, all these coasts. Why won't go in there? Kherson shelves support the cause I didn't shop, you get all the supplements environment shopping, we got a bunch of other retail that will be rolling out near future. And listen any this stuff juridical fuelled outcome, will shipping you for free. If you can subscription cause. Let's face it. We know that there is other Elam south there that are providing you with free shipping and we know that that's kind of cool, good good. We don't Rob take anything away from that, but we have to at least match that right. We have to at least level, the playing field. But how do we do that? Free shipping, free shipping? If you get a subscription to any these things, which is good for you, too, is number one. You save the shipping cost number two years waken up one morning, you're out of milk, we haven't for dessert, then oh you go to go, get a milkshake cool

the milk shaken some type, two diabetes. Everyone here doc or fuel dot com check it out. What else we got word, Origin, origin, USA, Dotcom American made stuff in for real american made but imported, and then Soul, and then they saw that the tag on in wherever grown grandson, It is true. Georgian USA genes boots boots Jujitsu stuff geese and he put on your rift gay lately patting it He has left him at last. Is you don't have one? How do you do when you this is not solely

what energy drinks? What go is to energy drinks. Rift GPS is to give its that freakin hype, good you're so frustrate. If you ever have to put on a normal gay again, you'll be mad at literally lobby matter earlier. That actually happened to me as a kind of matter. If you don't want, none of that gives rash guards joggers, if you're jogger type human, ECHO Charles happens to be I go in and for not yet the good stuff all american media or origin USA. Also, Doc or a store discipline. He was freedom, shirts, hats, hoodies, Ok, I want you to break into the scenario we have the unfair HU, I you know I didn't find it is unfortunate, is maybe maybe you did

of course not could you took her yourself, gotta look out if you took areas. Also cause you're happy you're over here I got you gotta cool, surely that I dont how I, incidentally, We took care of myself and it kind of came to light check in your attention? ok, so we got this thing. Ok, Jacko, store! You click on the shirt blocker as each you Artie creative. You made it look really. Restaurants, ain't green rate, if we're so certain actually make somebody on Twitter, oh yeah, Instagram, the Graham someone told me, call the short, walk. It was like a fool. You please, anyway, so It's a subscription situation for shirts creative designs. You add a question mark, I feel like theirs. Question worked in your head about like oh, what a creative designs yeah. I don't know what that means, but they look cool and now

you just were wearing the other day on the mats of justice, and I don't have it Can you explain that I can no longer yet it that's all whereas if you want to get closer to dawn, amiss out yes or in another. Actually, when you kind of explained the little bit as I gathered is kind of a thing, it's you cause it's hard to communicate like hey. These shirts are gonna, be like cool, maybe what you use you all the time, but they will be clear to everyone ever. Maybe that's an indication that people don't really trust your assessment of what school? What's not be that as it may, the FAO So these it's hard to be like hey, guys, get this they're gonna be cool and then that sort of it. Maybe it's your personality that you like me. I think we have the similarity. We don't likes it hears ain't like hey, making something and it's going to be included in the EU, so that would be whack. That makes sense here so ominous. It echoes been making some stuff and it's cool you and if you I get it then you gotta go get that Sherlock, on including myself is apparently yes,

of course, you're dismayed that actually says discipline freedom on it, I get a version. I don't get a tear us. What is a copy, a copy, issue an issue get issued, nothing? Okay. So what this? This was the thing from the beginning. If you remember Sherlock or you get, you get a shirt that month and it's gone, you don't we don't sell amendment on store, that's waste, not for the shirt luxury ghetto every month, so you can't to me after everyone's already arrived and be like where's. Why would I again? I think we have to take some of which can't blame everyone. We have to take ownership of new like hey the ownership. Is we have to convey the level of cool. Of the shirts that are coming. So, if you want to you want some get you sure locker on your dad's about that through the actual store doc. Also, don't forget about that. You're every day representing on the path from Asia

but if you represent a sharp someday you any representing- let's face it except path. Little bit more. We re more something enjoyable strip subscribe to this park asked if you want to also we have the contacts we have, the Jackal unravelling podcast and I'll, go and Robin Podcast Darrow, and I go deep some stuff were actually go deep on operation nemesis, everyone to check that out, look up, Jacko unravelling well said. The grounded part ask got the warrior kid park. Ass Darrell has his podcast, which is called martyr made. and you could join us on, the underground were put now we're put now more podcast. How is that impossible for putting more park ass, jock, underground, listen, there's their staff. Things happening in the pot asked world in the whole world,

censorship, random people being pulled off of platforms, we don't know what's going to happen and we be stupid not to have some kind of contingency plans. We have a contingency plan of. if we need to we don't want to, but if we need to We can survive some kind of a traumatic, platform of hence where, if they want to start button. Advert injecting advertisements into this part gas or whatever we want have that up, and so we need alternative platform would a building. It wouldn't want to take sponsors and have people you don't have to do. We all do that so If you want to help us not do that and you won't help us have a contingency ready, then you. Can you can subscribe to Jacko underground at you, go underground, dot com, could you imagine Jacko doing some basic S red for like an actress they re in my name- is at war or it might.

So not only not to me at once on. Somebody would be Blake, one of the better reads, even countered. We're not do not do that. They have been lying in bed for three hours I can't sleep. What can I do good stuff on there, though, recently Dirk represent grace in us with his presence per year, but this college stuff like well, that's cool things exist as an opportunity to talk about things that are just outside the purview of actual Jacko Bacchus, speaking of which I got some Good topics common up on that I have some good. I got some good things really good. We'll go estimates. Look good, yes, also Youtube. Where we tell the Shall we do have a? U to general. If you want to see the videos that I am the assistant director on, then you can watch em.

Lichens does the ones I was sitting director on otherwise echoes in charge. Will you harry? That's some stuff cookies who may be will allow you to assistant her eyes. Units submitted the slow cooker as usual. Psychological warfare. I made an album telling echo how to overcome moments of weakness and he recorded it and now you you can listen to it psychological offer. You people ask me for alarm: clock can get that and you can put your alarm. That's where we did it. Mp3 check that out where we get your mp3s footsore Canvas, Dakota Meyer down there, making American made stuff to hang on your wall. Keep you in the path got a bunch of books, Obviously, you can go to juggle podcast dot com, slash books and you can order books from the podcast. Is this I don't know if you could be order. This one eye, This one in my collection did you copy, I don't know still available, but it

armenian Golgotha. You can try. Good luck, we get if it's available will get it up their final spin. I wrote a book that is a fiction book. I can't novel to me, just doesn't sound cool. Does it sound, called you we especially vows like I wrote it now. That sounds you're right, ear, maiming That does not just so. I need to come up with another word. Maybe come up another word like milk for like something that's kick ass, that's not true! That's a story, the monk I can be like. Oh, I rode up. Whatever thing is that we can still do not feel feel good about it. Yet it's a good idea, because I know this is not my thing like I wrote a novel I mean like technically was a technical definition of a novel, their DC. If you start, We need to differentiate between a no vote

in a novel gets very harry. Sometimes maybe you, let's say a hundred pages. I think it's pretty, his bewildered by the different, looked between extreme ownership, No, I'm not I'm talking about. What's a novel category have you what's a cool novel that you read: remove red blood meridian? Ok, that's the only call, not well maybe some other ones, but blood books call blood reading a novel year then I guess I'm down with a kind of blood meridian, rather than the next step is to call yourself a novel is doing you're ready. For that point, I wrote a novel right in line with friggin blood, meridian novelist, who wrote a novel. The book. The story is called final spin, its avail for pre order right now, but look the publishers, thinkingly who's gonna, buy a book by this knuckle, drag her we're gonna work. Who's gonna buy a book by this knuckle driver leadership, tragic tactics, field manual. We got the call the evaluation protocols dismissed freedom, few manual renewal, since our weight

her kid for free to and one might be in the dragons talked about that a little bit with turn piece in the other day about face by hack worth, I wrote the Ford for the new version and then the old school, oh gee, extreme ownership and the dichotomy of leadership echelon. I've, leadership, consultancy. We solve problems through leadership, you gotta echelon, front dot, com for details on You have online revamped its online leadership training It's outstanding on their life all the time interacting. If you want to come and ask me, questions, go there muster twenty twenty one. Listen, we are executing its info excuse me. There's no, stopping this train me twenty fifth and twenty six in Orlando. If you want to go go. Immediately to extreme ownership, dot com, because now that people realize weren't go mode, gonna sell out. So if you want to go, may twenty fifth in twenty six comp common get.

Manage two days. It's it gray, granular and eat is pragmatic leadership skills that you are going to take from that event bring about and it can have an impact in your world. So Orlando Mate, efficient twenty six Phoenix August Seventeen, nineteenth and Vegas October. Twenty the twenty ninth. a battlefield. Pay attention for those in the future I'll. Let you know one of next scheduled there outstanding, and we do them various battlefields and When a help service members act, retired you and help with their families gold's our families check out Mark Liese, mom. Mama unleashed gotta charity organization and if you want to donate- or you want to get involved, go to America's Eddie Warriors DOT Org and if you want more of my wretched reading or more of echo's irritating inquiries or you didn't you just

You just want to hear more of Darrell's pedantic populations. find us on the website, the novelist commoner there you go on Twitter on Instagram and on Facebook echoes that echo. Charles Darrell is at martyr made and I am at when we get, as you heard in this episode, there evil in the world, and there are those people that stand up against evil and some of those people of those people are our military service. Men, women out there around the world fighting to keep evil at bay and at home, our police and law enforcement, fire fighters and paramedics, empties dispatchers correctional officers and border patrol and secret service, and all the first responders, all they're doing the same thing. So thanks You all of you out there in uniform, protecting us and everyone else remember this evil. Does

exist up there, it's a mob, it is a frenzy, it is pent up, frustration and anger is jealousy and it is envy and it is resentment and it is out there, and it is also in all of us, and it is up to all of us to fight it so keep on fighting and until next time, the zero, an echo and Jacko out.