« Jocko Podcast

332: Influence & Ownership Over Your Physiological & Psychological Being w/ Andrew Huberman

2022-05-04 | 🔗

Andrew Huberman, Ph.D., is a neuroscientist and tenured Professor in the Department of Neurobiology at the Stanford University School of Medicine. He has made numerous significant contributions to the fields of brain development, brain function and neural plasticity, which is the ability of our nervous system to rewire and learn new behaviors, skills and cognitive functioning. 

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This is an unofficial transcript meant for reference. Accuracy is not guaranteed.
This is job. I guess I'm a three thirty two with ECHO Charles in me, Jocker willing good evening. I counted even so when I first started despotic asked when we first started this part cast, talking about different situations, how I handle different situations, what I thought about various Jack's different view points I had concerning leadership and really concerning human nature, and almost immediately started gettin feedback and started getting asked question and people would say. I have used it stoicism or are you did? Did you do a lot of work? You know looking at at at Nietzsche or so mother ancient for modern school the philosophy, the short answer was that no, I didn't I didn't do that. I mean I,
left Highschool during the military. So there wasn't this big educational background. For me, I'm not academic of any kind. In fact, there was a funny the earliest live. Events that I did and it was a relative. We cultured audience out there Someone asked you know: who's your favorite who's, your favorite philosopher, and I said Larry and no one lap. I laugh, but no one else laughed, and so I added I said you know let me from for motor head and a couple peoples or awkwardly laughed, but not much and then later on. We explored this idea a little bit more in the pot gasped and because look there much to be learned from old philosophers and an old thinkers and as it turned I agree with animal lined with a lot of what they say. No doubt about it, I'm not trying to say anything negative about these
philosophers and the theories that they had, but the fact that matters I just didn't start am I mean, like I said I was a shitty high school student. I didn't. I don't think I read any books in high school, so yeah, I didn't learn anything about these things. I just figured these things out through my own random. Try wasn't tribulations in life. and it was a similar situation with with Jordan, Peterson when he came on the park for the first time, it was really obvious that we had come too many of the same conclusions in our view of life but You got to those conclusions through rigorous dammit study work as a clinical psychologist. Got here through my experiences in life and in the teams and I've been,
very lucky in that regard very lucky to kind of stumble into things been guided in. certain situations been shoved in some directions. May some good decisions along the way made some bad decisions and been lucky enough to live through. It learn, learn from it so been very, very lucky, but also pay attention to these kinds of things. A lot of times I paying attention these kind of things, because I I was trying to teach them. I originally started paying attention the leadership, because I had to learn it in order to become a leader sideways paying attention, and I was watching what leaders we're doing- and eventually I was paying attention a leadership because I was teaching it. and so I saw things- and I stumbled into things and.
In one of the things I wrote about leadership strategy and tactics. I'm in my first platoon were were clearing gas oil platforms. I do a big write up about this and in that book, but my platoon ends up on a skirmish line where all we're all looking down our weapons looking to engage targets and no one's make an call knowns making. any kind of a decision, and I. As a new guy, I take a step back. which means I brought in my field of view. I look around So I can see more and on mice com, comes over me and now I can see what we need to do and I make a call- and I started teach restarted teacher to young leaders, hey, you need to take a stand back. You need a broad your field of view. You need a look around. It's gonna com you down and allow me to make a decision. I also would tell
I hate you need to take a breath and I I have some you know I wasn't saying you need to take some spiritual, transcendent breath. You need to reach deep into your inner soul and breathe. I wouldn't say that the actual reason I was say is because you don't want to sound panicked. When you come up on the radio, you don't want come up on the radio and say I did it get everyone over this building. You want to do that. You don't want to do it number one, because everyone else is going to now. Panic and number two cause everyone's gonna make fun of you when you get back from this operation, so you wanna either one of these. So when you have to me the decision, you take a step back and you take a breath. You detached Braun your field, a view and these things book I'm you down and allow you to make better decisions and recently of heard some podcast comparison, Joe Robe, and by the way they ve had a guy a couple times Andrew Andrew Hubert and this guy's.
Doctor a narrow. scientist a professor and as I listening to what, He was saying a lot, The things that I have been teaching world. with what he was saying there believe it or not. One of the things was abroad. Few the vision. Comes you down, taking Breath is something that scientifically coms. You now physiologically calms down. Browning your field of view, physiology we coms you down and guess what I know this. The calmer you are the better decisions making to make and there are other things when I into him. Talk that I read dignity from my own experiences: cold water. Does feel good when you get in it. But it feels good when you get on lifting waits, fast things that I had kind of instinctive we or through trial and error, figured out what
now being reinforced by someone that actually academically understood the science behind my instincts now my instincts are not always right. By any stretch of the imagination, I can. I should probably right an entire litany of books about the dumb things I've done, but I'm always going to see if there's some things I'm doing right. Why are they write things I'm doing wrong? Why are they wrong and always looking to increase The understanding that I have behind the things that I think I've figured out, which is why we are fortunate to have doctor true Huber men here with us tonight tell explain and explore what we think We think we know what we think we think and how we can get better at all of the above. I Andrew
thanks for coming down. Man. Good media great to be here did that when I was listening to you talk- and I was hearing you talk about how you, if you're focused on something small? It amps up your adrenalin I was at. I was listening. I was going to oh, it was all these things were coming together. All these dots were getting connected kind of crazy right, it's pretty wild. I mean, I think Some people may know this. Many people probably won't was, which is that your eyes or to pieces? Your brain did the only two pieces of your brain and yes, they or brain for those of you that look it up their party or central nervous system in their outside your cranial vault, and there are there to set the aperture.
It's either tunnel vision or the broad field of view, not just on your vision, but on your thinking, which is what you described and widening your field of view. Your visual aperture will allow you to parse more information. It also changes your perception of time, so the simplest way to put this is that when you are in a narrow field of view, it's a bit like having a video camera in slow motion. Your frame rate is higher, but in that small aperture you're, looking at minor details as soon as you hear anything done, of course, but the opposite is also true when you brought in your field of view- and that could be by literally moving your head around, but it can also just be by keeping your head more or less stationary.
and just deliberately broadening your field of you. We caught panoramic vision. You are taking smaller frame rate or, I should say sorry larger bins of time, but the way the visual system works is really clever. It actually allows you to sense motion more quickly. So when you running catch a ball or when you're Walking along you blink and be hits your eyelid. You didn't see it coming, could see and quotes, but you're in that panoramic field of view, and your reaction time is four times what it is when you're in that narrow aperture. Now again, I want to reiterate, doesn't and just clarify this for like twenty years, I have been teach young seal leaders and then be no other people in the world and the business world in the in the first spawned a world in the military out large for twenty years. In Saint, hey, listen when things start to deal get wild
we need to get off your gone. You need to take a step back. You need to broaden your field of view. You need to look around to see what's happening, I'm in town people that for twenty years only because it just worked for me can. I we figured that out in my every, firstly, opportune and- and it took me While the two, where I said, oh, that's something. I need to tell other people to do like I figured it out and would do it, but then ones I was position where I was teaching these things. So that's just like wild that there's all these physiological things that occur. That for me, was I I knew it. I knew that you better do this I mean. Imagine you talk about a field of you. Imagine what your field of view as like when you're staring down the the barrel of a gun, its tiny, your field of view is so focused and you don't see anything. meet other. Did the target right in front of you? You don't see anything and that's what happens to, but when it went young seals and leadership position? That's what happens to me they're looking down their weapon and they don't see anything, that's that's happening. They can
make any decisions because they don't see the entire picture. They see nothing. So that's kind of crazy. That's again. These are just some of the examples and I pulled from listening to you and listen to your part gas, by the way who Bergmann lab before get down any more rabbit holes. Let's, let's talk about where you came from how you ended up on the spot cause. I would say you didn't take what sort of a standard route to end up where you ended up. So, let's talk about young drew Huber men what's going on. What are you born was actually born in Stanford Hospital, ok, a joke! I was born as ever to hospital. I trained at Stanford I work at Sanford I'll probably die at Stanford, hopefully a long time from now people say you get a diner officer or worse place to die than Stanford, And how were you born there like why yeah surmise your parents work there? So my my dad's from South America, he actually came here. He is a physicist, but he came here from Argentina on a Navy scholarship, so the Navy paid for my dad to leave Argentina where there were no
opportunities to do. Science came to the? U s: when do you ever see Pennsylvania, the years he's worked on. Various projects relate the government when actually dont know ton about what he does now. Growing up while he met my mother in New York, city and she's from EAST Coast from Jersey and My grandfather went to college on the g. I bill Susan and were to vet my mom, while he's in graduate school, and he was a real physical guy now come, later, your dad was my grandma. My grandfather monarchist got it. So my down, my mom met, moved California and had my sister and I and this was a time I should say when Palo Alto'S, you know dot no Silicon Valley in this go above wealth in the Bay area. We were we're middle class. We weren't up in class a week single single story home I mean we didn't. We didn't want for things. You know I didn't imagine about having, lorries earning that we didn't, but there were kids in the other high school there, too high schools
also, I went to the one we're all the nerdy kids went, so she called gun high school are you in, and it has a funny reputation not funny. Has an infamous reputation is the high suicide rate of any high school in the United States, for reasons we can talk about, so from the time I was born until about age. Thirteen I had a pretty. I would take a magical childhood bunch of young boys about my age, lived down the street, their older sisters. They also have other sisters were about my sister's age, and so it was. Biking around and escape around playing baseball on the street soccer swimming. Those are big sports in the bay and we had dinner together every night of the family. You know we can with great life and others So this is like this until your around thirdly, a until thirteen and then my parents split up it is, at a time in the eighties, when I think I was and one other kid in school.
worse parents member these times, right now, it's dear rampant, but and unfortunately they don't have the skills to handle it properly so just imagine the rule book of all the things parents are exposed to doing horse Bayard. They basically systematically broke every one of those my dad moved away and was overseas for a bit I was at home in my mom and she struggled with the fracture of our family in a major way This is right about the time I hit puberty sounds like John Gasoline on fire right. And at the time I was a bit indiscreet bordering on this was early, is it. The bones regain animals, in videos- oh yeah, okay, so for those of you that dont know you can look it up and you get a sense, but I quickly got into the skateboard community at and dropped everything I'll, stop lying soccer, really stop doing any structured, school sports and things that sort and really and escape boarding.
and the reason I got into skateboarding was a you. Didn't your dad to go, write soccer, all the other kids had dads there, my dad wasn't there. It was kind of embarrassing and my mom would have gone actually she would have been one shouting loudest she's from Jersey, after all, she's got teeth, but you know scouts, wasn't gonna, be my thing: Adsum presented to evil scouts, guys we're playing lacrosse and water polo and yes gave warning made a lot more sense. And so what ended up happening was from about thirteen fourteen fifteen, I started writing these seven F boss. Up to San Francisco, there was a big gathering of kids in Justin, Applause. The now infamous famous e m b crowd the Embarcadero and This was a scene, a very nascent scene at the time of young feral, guys with almost exclusively guys, that hung out there all day long, none of them went to school. They drank
forty, forty ounces and forty answers, and you know people were smoking weed and drinking and skateboarding in there were fights and people would rip off tourists and it was, It was. It was kind of a rough scene, but there is also some amazing skateboarding. Now, I never really like drugs or alcohol. So I looked out in that way from you is all about the skateboarding. and over the years you know those early years of going up there to know a lot of guys, I would say about A third of them have just to give you a sense of where it went about heard of them have gone on to found companies. you really well, I'm fortunate to be friendly because again, he way I talk to you know we. I remember the young doc robbed here too, coming through and biogas went on to create some impressive things and did very well about a third or just living their lives, and I don't know where they are and about a full. Thirdly, guys I knew from back then are dead or in jail, so so lot of fights la drinking water? Let a guy's got their girlfriends pregnant. Does it was a mixed You know- and I said,
looking back in that time, I was kind of aimless right. I wasn't. I wasn't I got a skateboarder. I want to be really clear, because the skateboarding community is kind of ruthless in terms of holding accountability almost as much or probably as much as in the teams right. I have a number of friends on the teams, like you want to be very careful with what what you employ, what implies, and so I dont imply that I was faded to become a Danny anywhere in the now the skills, actually, my body wasn't developed. Yet I kept getting hurt. Skinny I kept breakin feet, not gonna hurt doing things that other guys do trivially, so that was really tough and I kept like I couldn't keep up, but My friends were there and go I could throughout a bunch of names, but I will mention some of the brighter lights in that scene: got to see and witness great skateboarding from a gun in my Carol, whose incredible scape order, and his older brother, Gregg Carol was kind of a big brother to all these parent. Kids. I also learned that going
school was an option for certain kids in the city, and here I was a kid from Palo, alto and thought moment. Just won't go anymore Well, what s happening was someone took notice and that I wasn't in WU, and one day when I was back in Highschool supposed to be ninth grade, I got called into the office and is sitting down and they were talking to you. You know how are things at home or he's going. They start probing. There's this guy sitting in the corner and at some point I realize I think you're gonna take me away. So that's ended up happening. How much school did you skip yeah? I could more about the curves and the gun Highschool parking Lot. I can tell you about any classes I took up until about the eleventh Grade and in the eleventh grade as a story, as the only reason I really went there is because there was a girl in the twelfth grade who is very beautiful, who, for whatever reason, had a lapse of judgment and decided to go out with me and then ended up being my girlfriend, and I and people to her because, as the story eventually goes, you know that was the reason I went off to college at all that
well either so I wasn't going much at all, and so my grades were not good. and your mom was just. Was she working at this time? What was she doing or she's like just? She was working allowing you to San Francisco skate all day allowing me in airports. I I remember me and a guy who has gone on to do very well, a documentary films, Jake Rosenberg yeah. She made the waiting for lightning documentary about anyway, and a couple of guys took Jake His parents and Volvo wagon Van again or whatever those wagon things are. I forget what those were I dunno if they show me, those are pretty cool. We piled into that and we all went to the RINO Nationals for a week mid exams. You know it just kind of went out there. I think we forged signal Kids, don't do this by the way I'm oppressor. Now I just want to say for the record: wait to get your tattoos dont get the pole
the earrings for reasons that don't even need explanation and please please stay in school but went up there. I had MC measure get picked up by a wheel company in trot company. What is our company under trucks? put me on not we'll company, they were spitfire, ok Why you were like who were at least writing? I wish I could manage and getting free trucks. That's all you're gettin wasn't so here's here's money money! No! So too, so gosh cause somewhere out there. The great Jim feeble, who owns dialogues, which is escape wards and on Anti here on all his prey listening. Thank you Jim he put me on out of sympathy. I, was hanging around the factory. Do dialogue so in San Francisco. There's an amazing thing about skateboard that a guess most people don't know which was this guy foster Vitiello, who started Thrasher Magazine and also independent trucks, the great independent trucks, and then he had a brilliant idea, which was why don't we just make a bunch of companies thunder spit fire?
and sure? Well guess what folks it's all the same company and so kids know you'd say: oh, I write thunders know I write indies, it's all Irma CO, that's where they poured the stuff. So During those years of high school I started going up to the factory and hang around the factory, which is in hunters point, which is the only truly dangerous part of San Francisco. At least at the time, was the only truly dangerous part and yet a really watch yourself there, I saw it I get pushed off a motorcycle beaten up and is more cycle taken at a stoplight mid day. This is You know this is really rough blocks. and so you know here I was as fourteen year old kid from Palo Alto, getting a pre, quick street education, our game to fight a little bit like us, had, fortunately didn't like drugs or alcohol, because and use randomly didn't like drugs or alcohol was there's something in your pants. hunting that made. You feel that way. Did you not like the loss of control? You know
it was probably the drugs and alcohol that I was exposed to. Sir I'll call made me feel kind of sedated, as it does for Britain a bitter has we'd, say neuroscience and the drugs at the time we were mostly smoking, weed and hash, taking lsd and mushrooms and know that really appealed. I do have a drug and its adrenaline love the clarity of mind and the energy that comes from adrenaline and I learned early on that beautiful but very dangerous edge, where everything is clear, you have immense amount. So then are you and if you can regulate a bit ear incredibly com, and yet there is that readiness in your body, I'm sure, as I do Travis many people, and especially you guys, will know this feeling very well and it's a very drug like state right, it's as powerful as being, in love and lost all at once right it just it had its its abuse, the full tunnel and I fell in love with it. Pretty early on
and I also love camaraderie right. So my family quickly became this big group of Fair, well kids and some older guys. There really took care of well. Ass people like on home at night. Are you like squatting somewhere, so not sleeping on the street? There were guys, slept in marketer all the time. I wasn't one of those I would stay, this guy re, Myers House, user, Scape border and but also computer, programmer and dumb, and this links back to that day where they were gonna. Take me away. I ended up Lee. into the city. I ran away so that so I bolted I must have your store. That was your freshman year that was beach. my freshman year, maybe early sophomore year, and you think these it's going to take me me in some kind of whatever right so I took off, I went to raise house. I took the bus up to San Francis. I bolted, I think I'd said I'd use the bathroom and and then they went obviously they weren't thinking with New York North and I went to raise house. He lived in his parents attic, he was
computer programmer and also of professionals gay border one of the more stable people in that in that work. What uses CIS Sicily, nineteen, eighty nine and you'd on, and I don't want anything it was shaved head and you know what you know and maybe my hero might have been dyed, blue black or something- and I was just excited cause- I you know I had whatever new pair of kicks on was o and the funny thing. If you wrote for thunder back, then you got the shirt that is in my high school yearbook. In it I saw the other day which says I ride for thunder trucks, and all I got this lousy t shirt and they only made a few of them. You have one of those out there had loved love to see it, but I went to raise and stayed there for a bit at that. One point he said you know you can't stay here and I said, went on like I live at home with my parents like this is weird. Where do you live in my house? You know you have to go home so eventually went back and then it was no forgiveness. They they took me to place up the peninsula, which
was neither juvenile Hall nor Mental Hospital nor jail. It was this kind of truant troubled, kids place and I'll never forget. They told us, they said: ok, there's an adult ward over there and their crazy and then there, these little kids younger than you that he was younger than fourteen in this other building and there really disturbed, but you guys you're normal. You just have a lot of problems. and I thought to myself: that's definitely what they're telling the people who do things, but what happened was. I was on a seventy two hour hold. You know I hadn't done anything. I hadn't harmed anyone or myself so and was on the third day that one of the counselors there, who is a really good guy. You know we sometimes forget that the people that do that kind of low income work with kids, like me back then, and kids now and probably in graduate school or something a lot of these people have their own set of problems.
And that's what led them there and he sat down. He said: listen you can get out of here and go right back to what you were doing or you can ask whether or not there's anything here value and at the time I was pretty frightened. I was in this place. My roommate was this He looked like Richard Ramirez, the knights. Have you ever seen that documentary on it? I don't think you never want to live in LOS Angeles county elbowed richer. Theirs was happy to travel, to kill you. It turned out so I remember staying up at night and being really frightened. I thought out of this guy's gonna try and harm me in any kind of way turned out. He was just another sad story of somebody who is really really troubled this really. Oddly, he was one of the bigger, more dangerous looking eyes in the place, but he was cutting on the bottoms of his feet so that no one would see I met some good kids in their who you know had different sets of problems in me, a lot of them drug problems. Some of them had been more.
Still. Fortunately, I never experience that you know and ask wow like I'm in trouble right on that I mean this is a long way from home. It's also a long way from Embarcadero. I called my team manager, I'm going to name him this time cause we're friends now his name was Steve is Steve, Ruby, Shruti! really good guy, he manager from Father Perrault under and she laughed and again they put me on the flow team out of sympathy. Thank you, Steve thank shrewd. and I call them- and I said, listen they got me behind lock and key. I don't want to do and he said you called me and I said yeah he said brow you're the most. Normal guy. I know- and I said I know and I'm in here- and he said no, including me, I can't help you. I thought, while I'm in trouble though, what ended up happening was. I was led out
and as a condition of being let back in school. I had to go to school to chart a certain number of days and I was assigned to do therapy twice a week and at the time, and no one did where, if they did, it and talk about therapy. This reform goodwill hunting. This was before any kind of sense actually is a little factoid. I saw some statistics out of Stanford. I think it was college wide statistics in the: U s that ten years ago, if you, college students, how many of them go to were willing to explore therapy or something like fourteen percent. Now it's in excess of ninety percent, we can argue whether or not that reflects a good or a bad change. But anyway, I was assigned to a guy who was remarkable He really understood what I was going through, which I have to imagine was just a stroke of luck. He understood that my home life and have structure
At the time there was no strong paternal Roy. You know my dad's. A pretty strong minded person has strong opinions argentine after all. just that I was, I was spinning out and he stopped we discourage me from doing any drugs cause? He understood that that was going to be a risk in my current configuration and he understood that I wasn't going to get excited about school right away. I was always a reader, so I was heading in a tower books and reading about fitness and reading about love. To read about fitness. I, like history and I to read about sex so like not the without magazines, but I would go relax. Sexual health security is right And then you, young guy, like you know, there's like protocols in here. You know: what's learn this and fitness lifting waits like Ellington Garden Box in the old. Do you know soup slow movement stuff in MIKE men, Sir, and actually what happened was Well, what do you enjoy doing? I told them what my interests were unease at war. You should exercise
he swims. I think you know you don't learn much about your therapists if its appropriate, appropriate therapy relationship, So I start swimming about a mile or night out Rhonda this pool at half the fence them escape. What am I gonna pay to go into? It day, fences are there to over sort, hop defence and I'd swim at night, and then I started running I started lifting weights and there was a teacher at our schools. Name is Bob Peters, Bigeye football player and he taught me how to lift which and then I saw running cross country, and Eventually I gotta girlfriend I'd didn't dating skateboard way like they were girls, it would mean a contest thing, but a really nice smart, very sweet and kind girl, whose dad actually was a real blue collar guy. How much, What time is past, and so now sixteen or so I get my driver's license sophomore now I junior Junior in the junior sixteen cause. I started school in the form of fall baby, so I was always the youngest in my class. What do you think? How did this
therapists actually connect to you, because most of the things I see with kids, you was truly included when I was a kid, a super rebellious kid I didn't listen to Amy body like that was the you know, any adult just didn't know anything and How did the? How do you think that person made a connection with you too great question asked me that of three things, one was completely nonverbal- he was physically fit. I looked at him and I thought yeah man looked like that dude some day you know skinny and I kept getting hurt, skateboarding written, and I thought he wasn't really big and yo but he was tall and fit. He had good posture and the way he would greet me it was not. He was kind also remember. He had his a so he's kind of a bad ass. Yet his initial stitch into his socks, us, like a ghost protein, makes good money doing this, and but but he wasn't
there was no aristocracy about him. He just yeah. He he looked like the kind of person I might want to be. Look like he had his life together. Also remember that one day I came in and he said smiling and us again all the front ate. It was at mean, and I said what do this thing and these won't, you show me so we went downstairs and did push push push. I think I fell a few times and then I you know, click down this front. Eight we went upstairs and I was like wow. I think that's the first time that, like a grown man has cared what I was doing, and so there was that seed there. This for some. I remember that very clearly now and then he I remember falling asleep in his office a lot I must have been pretty out of it at times and then, when I met my girl friend shoes a year older us all intimidated. It's a whole, their thing when you're just traveling in I guess they call talking with girls order, but when,
actually like somebody now he's got something loose right in he really encourage me to he said a great advice by the way he said when it comes to decision making, ask her opinion, but I think she will appreciate if you just make the plants all right. So I would pick the restaurant. I will restaurant back then I had no money right, but in terms of you know, so I used to run to my girlfriend's house and wash her car. She had a bronco, so I used to go there while she was at church on Sundays Her dad was a blue collar guy, very little education, but had done ok in this country by buying apartments and then taking care of them himself. When these guys with I remember he had one hundred keys one always a sign that somebody works hard rain just remembering what all those guys or to the memory task will. What are you What are you listening to you for music right now? So, as you start talking about this and answered your group, through my life and thinking about what kind of people
had influence over me and there was like a one of one guy that I knew his older brother was marine corps. Was record was a marine corps instructor and No, in my mind when I was like thirteen years old- and I saw that I was like okay, that dude looks like he can kick ass, and that seems like a good thing to be able to do and then you know, as I started, listen in a hard core music and all of a sudden you eat you, you know Henry rounds in black flag is like doing pushups and you think, ok It looks like I need to start doing some pushups Anne and then There are some other hard core bands where you know The guys are working out- and I remember like a mite, my friends in me we're like look able, we're working out. Why clause is AIDS interesting you brought up like the kind of fostering the stature, because when you her kid and you're thirteen, and you re a hundred and thirty eight pounds or whatever you see someone that's like honoured,
ninety pounds and they kind of look like like you said they ve got that's kind of what I think I should be doing, even though its an interesting thing, I heard I heard you, I think, was either Rawlins or or in my cry Mackay, and they were too about seen HR from the bad brains and hr from the bad brains was like older. You know cause they were round and then in the late seventies, but he had been an athlete age or from a bad. brains had been an athlete in like high school. He was like up of a track athlete. That's. How can we could do these flips, but they like looked at him. He looked like a man like a jack, I know like yes, and so that again, these duties is an interesting. That little physical stature mean something apparently yeah. These are, I guess you know the psychologist. We have to ask these masculine archetypes did you get a seed going there. You know it's in there. A cup
things. One important person, I failed to mention the got. It saw me my first skateboard Skynet, Gary Hall and ran the skateboard shop and was an interesting guy because he's very physically strong place hockey, but also skateboard shows a professional scape water in the can lead seventies early eighties, He took early on when he some me going off. The rails exists escape word with him, a lot he said. Listen, your parents are going through a lot whatever you do: do not mess your life by not going to school, not getting a job doing only saying so I didn't follow his advice as well as I could have, but Gary and I have remained close friends for God. I can't even count the years now more than thirty five years looked little story here. He he's actually the operations manager for my laboratory. At Stanford and he's a very put together guy. If you walk by us, pass them on the street, won't even know he skateboards he was very into you, know, Frances,
I've never seen a leaf on his frontline its edged perfectly My laboratory, I very proud to say thank you. Gary has passed every single inspection with one hundred percent nobody does that the ledger, they're gonna find something and he make sure they don't. And You said there were examples of people like that or my therapist, but that that I thought wow. I would love to be like that person, but I somehow confined the internal organs and to do it? You asked about music Wonderingly. Just terrible about the early ninetys about skateboarding. It was that you're a little wheels and people were in really baggy clause with you know colors like fruit, salad on the front and It would be a few years before the Danny Ways and those guys would come in like blasting, Slayer and Ac Dc and jumping over a great wall of China, but Bringing is like it was almost like. We had everyone. It was like a pre pubertal phase of skateboarding, which then event she went through puberty and some incredible stuff happen.
so the music at the time that kids in my Highschool were listening to was also to me, was just dreadful, no disrespect to anybody, but I mean people were like hacky sacking and listening to fish, and they, or you know sure the grateful dead wood plate, frosty, amphitheatre, Stanford and we'd go over for other reasons, you know, but it just the potentially smell and like none of that stuff resonated for me and then. What happened was I was fourteen and Jim feeble of De Luxe and has great famine he's he's a very quiet, humble guy, but he's a sort of the secret parent of all skateboarding. You can look up he's very important figure still to this day and a great person I was up at so far Thunder place was called Deluxe Le Warehouse and he gave me a tape and it was a banker crimped shrine which is in EAST Bay Pump band and that led me to the discovery of the great operation. Ivy
an operation ivy was featured in the first eight street video. Entire album of twelve twenty seven songs and operation, Ivy, Jesse, Michaels and TIM Armstrong, which is now of rancid fame and transplants, with Travis, Barker, okay, and on and on and on so when heard operation ivy. I was well I mean I can still feel it in my body now just that, I'm not going to try and sing it, but just like I got here just so. The energy was so much like. That's me that that that's me it's a cease all on the street. It looks just like you and it's a feeling inside you. That's me, and then operation, ivy ivy. I went to Jim and I said photo of where. Where can I get more of this and he goes oh, if you liked that stiff little fingers, an extra years. You have done for the operation Ivy one album
so that they have that energy pie? That was really long. Yeah they broke up because there were a bunch of teenagers touring and they had this huge success now. Fortunately, that led to the great I mean my favorite band of all time and that tremendous respect and love and admiration and appreciation for Rand So if you are in my mind, if you were going to design a bunk bed or a band of any kind, you'd have a bullet belted mohawk I up front, that's him without this, like he actually is missing of you want to do. And then you have an amazing based player like Math Freeman, whose is like a big you nope card car guy and then you have a drummer like bright red who actually used skateboard with us at the Embarcadero. I remember thinking like no one at tattoos back then it was what we call. The autoclave days now his disposable needles back then it was actually dangerous because we weren't sure if they actually ran the autoclave or if they were sober while they did it and he had a huge spider tattoo on his chest and we're like whoa, that's a commitment.
And and then you have large Richardson in oil guy right from the south, from San Jose I remember the first time I heard rancid, which first a three peace and that when they added lars- and I thought this It's like operation, ivy graduated and went to college, which guys did they know they get what I'm talking about. But just so much energy like the albums. Would? he would and Once again, I thought I was maturing Reddit gone through people. I was going through puberty and I thought this this is this is and I have to say that throughout my entire life, every rancid arm has trapped to a particular five year phase of my life. and I could go on and on about this, and I will but I own every be track. Every out take ere, I mean I've even got a song by rancid called the sentence which nobody knows, which is queued up in my phone, so that if I'm on a plane, it starts to go down as much as I love the people in my life, I'm plugging in and I'm going down to the sentence. So that was all during those years and and then,
fitness thing really took off because of this. I football coach, Bob Peters and then because my girlfriend. At the time she was a year older. She updated dated a guy that someone show me picture of news, this big football player from the other high school, and I was you know, six foot tall at that time hundred and fifty pounds. I thought, oh, my goodness like she must think I'm a Dental flocks right so I started my sit up to my push option and thus our lifting Kansas Soup, like classic thing, and then I saw an ad from like men, Sir, in a magazine and I paid I I was working at the time, so I started working at a cafe near bussing tables and things like that, and I got a programme for my answer and got on the phone and he said, listen, I'm a phone with MIKE. Why paid him yeah? Oh, I paid him and he explained high intensity training and bring. You must
to failure, and so I start doing the thing of training once every of how much the tat costs pray about a hundred bucks at the time we would have an economic environment like a huge investment for me people, did you do that for years, is amiss dazzle. I remember, I haven't gonna, get a kid. You gotTa Western Union and send him western union. No, it's great. And my mother, I remember when he cautiously, why is this grown men calling you I started doing the ones you train rest. Today's train rescued is in my body. Just responded like crazy today So I was eating and training and growing like a weed and end as most people know when you're untrained and you start training, even a slight training hard you just grow and when near howled I was I was seventeen slouching, your body just seething with thirst last I so from his g h or whatever everything I'm from and from the sixth
and until August, when I started, I eventually followed at high school girlfriend off to college. I went from a hundred fifty pounds to two to fifteen in a period of about three three years or so there wasn't all solid, but it was solid enough aside. The baby tat round roundish face, but sprinting and lifting and then basis and are you now back in school? Are you paying attention school? So here cares the irony I got a girlfriend. I died. You're back to normal collar. I start wearing flannels instead of the skateboard gear, it always you dress like a skateboarder and then in the ninety's like you are wearing those big jeans and stuff. There are photos of those out there. There are a few videos I know I didn't, wear the super baggies. I got out before that date. That was the answer. I was danger closed, its true, very embarrassing.
Herb which is coming down for me in, like I guess I was a generation before that workers, I guess, five years older, six years old or new, so like when I got Thrasher magazine. It was like nothing but like a hard core and metal and met effect, my name with what my subscription to thrash or magazine for whatever reason aware wrote my name when I mailed in the thing they sent a default go well I like the way a robot is so you know somewhere they got files on me at Thrasher magazine. They used to send a magazine to Volkow willing, but there would know it was like, hard core, and that was the man who is, as it was told, a rebellion. It was absent. Rebellion and that's the way, then nothing
It might have heard music yeah. That's where I got that's where I picked up a lot of music and started, seeing that and having that attitude and that rebellious attitude as suited me very well for my whole life and most most of the time it's worked out. Alright, sometimes been a little bit much. But yeah, that then wait. So I join the Navy and that's when you know unfortunate. for you. You got roped in a big baggy pants stuff. There is. It was pretty bad. The here well and I said skateboarding and started working out and I got into Muy tie mocha started actually opening the doors on this more thai place. So they let me train there for free it was in San Jose. Nothing is still exists, the military academy and was, Interesting there were a lot of cops: the train there bodyguard training; they had some weapons training, So now I'm hanging out with a different Europe, a guys still like fighting so that a lot of aggression, but out was, I wasn't skateboarding, yeah with my girlfriend. Do you ever get your ass beat in these fights,
im lucky that over the years I've never been knocked down or knocked out, but I've definitely taken hits, and you know there's that I would say the amazing thing about adrenalin is that when you get in a fight, it's amazing how little it hurts during the fight and how much it hurts afterward and so definitely experienced the clarity of getting hit and feeling ultra clear and again I don't recommended to people s machine. As you point out how many times on your podcast- and I appreciate that you do this- you know you can hit someone just right and it's all fair and square and they can plug and kill you or the person. Next to you and or- and this I'll tell a story that that unfortunately happened. You know when I went off to basically I after college, because the girlfriend went to college she once you see Santa Barbara, and I was going down there my senior year, literally sleeping in my car, in the parking lot she was my family after your senior year of high school yeah, so he's already in college, you know. So what happened was as she was a year ahead of me. So my junior year, I started hanging out with her. You asked if
was going to school, I was going. I was dressing. The part morbid normal person, but unfortunately I was still really challenged in school. I didn't have the skills I hadn't barely begun in the early years. I was reading and I was smart enough to kind of get by, but I wasn't doing very well and I thought what am I going to do with myself and she's going to college soon. I'm sure, and I decided to say fire science classes down at Mission College become a firefighter I like hanging out with a bunch of dudes lifting weights, and I love the camaraderie and I wanna make a living and you know she's the one drives the bronco, I don't even have a car. How am I going to get a car or truck you know? I mean. How am I going to live? and so I started thinking about my future. A bit, but that was as far as I was thinking out, then I somehow managed to graduate asked me how and I am sure, after college, and so in that year, where she was a year ahead of me and I was a senior I was going to Santa Barbara to visit her quite a lot sleeping in the parking lot getting into mischief
various kinds, but basically just want to be as close to hers. I could And then I decided I would apply to call the reason. Was there was a concert mission who said well, you know you can get going to the fire service without a college degree, but if you have a college degree there are some opportunities that open up for you in there that you wouldn't have otherwise. So I was still in therapy talk to my therapist I think, it'd be good idea. You seem to have a mind that wants to consume a lot of knowledge, so I took the as a t and by some stroke of luck. I you know, I broke a thousand, which you know for gun. Highschool would be considerably the low end, because everyone there is a perfect when we score that it is, it was acceptable and then there was me you know and I wrote my college entrance essay saying that I'd like to run a station, how some day and become firefighter until a little bit of my It wasn't a sob story, or this in that you know. I just told my story and I got in so go to use you Santa Barbara she's now living off campus, some staying with her, I think, out of bed in the dorms. I show up
what you got into you see Santa Barbara. I did ok with you which at the time I think the standards for getting anywhere were lower than they are now. It's super competitive all uses now, but got in and it was a total disaster. Getting and fights. I got the lifting waits part down of gopher, run I was training, a more tidy gym, downtown found someone who would hold bags for me and would spar with me a little bit and even made some money teaching some self defense classes on campus and things like that. you know, and the girlfriend I are now starting to fracture, mostly because I've, while there are a lot of other attracted women here and not yet, I will say this guy's: if there's a woman who is really beautiful, dedicated Sweden kind and its early, it is where investing in those early relationships. Going through some developmental milestones together, if you think you too have to break up just to explore. Think twice talk to me for first because she would have been a great choice, but I was distracted.
and then I started I got thrown out adorns for fighting. I had a guardian, you not you drink, still I drink a little bit the first year and then you know I not so much for me was I've never really needed to drink. So if I go out, listen to music of still gonna Pencroft shows always always always and I'd go to parties? And you know it was fun. You know people drinking and having a time, but I wasn't really into drinking and I can say whatever I want to say about it. I think just always had that kind of wild side in me that I didn't need to drink, if you're still getting in fight, even though not drinking cause drinking leads to a lot of fighting yeah. So I don't have that. Excuse the young guy. Pull the fire alarm in our building cause, he was done with finals and he was celebrating. I remember- wake jumping out of bed because I need my sleep because you grow when you sleep, running out there and grabbing and hitting of those kinds of that kind of stupidity. He stuck a key through my cheek was actually destroying. Remember
I think someone said you have blood on your face. I said he's got his blood on my face and I know you believe they're this kind of thing, just young, stupid and nineteen years old or eighteen years old, and then what happened was. that summer. She moved home and I decided to stay in that little town of of Vista and I didn't pay rent. I just that skateboard or just these knollys hustler. locked just stay in one. So I was staying in one. I was delivering bales for the Beagle CAFE Drive and they will truck in four thirty in the morning. Come home sleep get up and go find barbecuing hang out, skateboard do whatever work out. And it was fourth of July nineteen. Eighty four remember this very well and we went to go to the store to pick up some stakes we're driving. and there are some guys coming out of the house with a bunch of stuff surfboards Gateway, it's in one of the guys in our cars said the usual thing he said all, let's get on speed them up. I was like no, no, no, that's not how you do it right. If you just say I'm going to beat you up like that-
if the tactics right here, I'm talking to you guys about fighting this is amusing. That also is the first podcast I've ever been to, except the one with your ring, where I'm the smallest person in the room, Joseph guys. You know he's thick so and so what ended up happening is. There was a big fight between a bunch of guys and ass in the whole thing, and it was like knives and bottles in it. worked out in the sense that no one got cut or killed showed up and I'll never forget this. The cop came up to me and he said. A big crowded, assembled and people were, and I thought we were these guys when they were walking with a with a and stuff yeah. They were still okay, so there's the ones that were stealing stuff and you know what I hit a guy in the whole thing and like, and I ended up on my feet and then there was a huge crowd and a couple of guys I was with ran away. He was like, let's get them, but then when they come out with bottles and knives, it's like out of town, and so please showed up and I'll. Never forget this. The cop said good job and I remember feeling
it's the worst sunken feeling in my stomach. I thought like good job, I mean first, I just it all kind of fell into place. It's like I'm nineteen girlfriends gone and I'm a job, I'm not doing well in school. I'm getting I'd actually been thrown out of the dorms for fighting, and some other just stupidity and younger and fights I could, cut, someone, someone could cut me, I mean I'd, be dead in jail, could be like one of those that stories from Embarcadero the guys that didn't make it that didn't skateboard just hung out drinking in parting and fighting all day right and I remember going back to my place that night and thinking this is it like. This is the line I need to do something, I'm basically a loser, and I was I was a total loser. And I thought what am I gonna do. Well, I had see minuses indeed, in all my classes, up until then, at Santa Barbara barely finished high school.
and so I decide to take leave of absence. I did not drop out. I took leave of absence. I moved home and I went to foretell College Community College, and I didn't talk to any my old friends from skateboarding world. It was just too familiar with a bunch of things. I didn't talk to my family. I lived in all apartment and I just started study. I thought what am I good at ok, I can remember things pretty well I like to read: This is it- and I remember thinking my dad's an academic, so I thought you know I'm not going to do this they'll just validate. You know what he does in his choices. I thought well that's stupid right, so I started working and I did ok in my courses took art. History took biology. psychology. Then I went back to Santa Barbara and I had this reputation in Santa Barbara. That time is a guy that was fun to have it parties, because something fun we can have in you know something wild was going happen to be a big fight. You know, you're the guy eating nosed up to the front and take the damage
where do the damage for entertain other people's entertainment. So I went back and I lived in the studio Plaza apartments. I still have a photo of that door because it has great meaning for me. I lived in the corner. There I lifted waits. I studied like a maniac and I did not drink or party except once a month at allow myself to go out and- and I would really you know- I've just stare my party, but over time when it realises I didn't like it because then it made the rest of the week that much harder. So in those years I discovered a guy and amazing person's name, Harry Carlyle, former Navy. I incidentally ran a laboratory any and talk classes, and he was teaching about at the time. There is no neuroscience, he was teaching bout, psychology biology, they called it bio psychology and about how depression was based on these things called transmitters and gets a fair. NEA, which I'd seen some of in this. You know my years
wait? Neurosciences neuroscience didn't exist at this time. There was no field of neuroscience. There was no chemistry physiology, but so this is the mid nineties now. Ninety four ninety I've or so, and he was teaching about the brain and how it works, and then he was talking about thermal regulation and he was talking about why people die at raves. He said I heard of these things called raves and the people taking the drug and he breakdown the structure of em dna ecstasy and explain Oh disrupt the hypothalamus in one's perception about hot it was in. This is why people would over he, even if their pouring water on themselves as a little scientific factoid when you're. For heating in the desert- while training, you might say, carpet a cold towel over my head or the back of my neck. Will that's like putting a call towel on a thermos that, because you have a thermostat in your brain, what happens when you put a cold towel on the thermostat? The thermostat turns on the heat. That's how you overheat and die turns out the best way to dump heat is through the palms of your hands and the bottoms of your feet You have a special Venus portals called aviation. We can dump heat. So if you want to go,
la fast and got you can save your life by getting near the bottom of your bare feet. Were the palms of your hands in the cool water we can talk about. This can be leverage for training for their some amazing research on this score: We are thermal regulation and I was learning about drugs of abuse and why my friends were attics. Probably was this pathways related and etc, etc. I thought, who is this guy start talking to him and he drove a black truck and he He was in shape. And I thought I wanna be like this- guy, and so I started hang around his lab and you drink black coffee he let me listen whatever music, I wanted after hours. And we start doing experiments. I start working in laboratory and he pulled me aside at one point he said you know you seem to have some proficiency for this and if you go to graduate school they'll pay you. I thought they pay you to do this and he said yeah I'll pay you to do it. You can tell me how much they pay you. Obviously what happened was made along destroy short. No more
I was never under the drugs or alcohol, as I mentioned, did not get back together with a girlfriend but I went from a cd stew into a straight a student, I got b plus my senior year, and it still pisses me off. but that was in no one, which is now what I teach to medical students who became my favorite topic, I went on to take multiple course: It's always that one thing that didn't quite get yearning Dan Gable talks about this in rustling as the one guy that I think it is it can beat out and then pin them or beat them by points that one guy that teaches you the most right. So I became a straight a student and when one to graduate with honors went to crowded school first at Berkeley amended my Phd and then my post August inference on and so forth. I will say over the years I kept in touch with various people in the skateboard community and then when I was a postdoc which is kind of like a residency between your phd and as your ship. I was at Stanford and I was working strongly heart. I've always had a capacity to to work long hours actually up. I have a hope, the insurance companies or my me saying this, but It would only hurt me. I have a mutation in a
and adrenal related gene Jean, so I probably make a little bit. I'd probably have the capacity make a little bit more adrenaline than most I can get by on very little sleep. At least for a couple of nights. I'm guessing a lot of team guys might have this. It's a pretty common mutation about twelve percent of males habit, so I and do fine with one night, no sleep. Second night, I'm kind of fallen a part of it, but if I need to take a one hour nap bouncing back in good now I dont recommended I try and get my good sleep now, but So just work, work, work, lifeless, lift run, run, run just repeat So you graduate from from Santa Barbara that's right and then you go from there to Berkeley, I go to Berkeley and the first week at Berkeley, ranches playing at the greek theatre. How? How is I'm there and I'm still doing that and still in it, but I'm not but I'm the guy now on the sidelines, happy to be there and and then eventually did my phd my graduate visor moose. I went up to Davis and worked for an incredible woman up there. Who is just a really really good scientist? It
she was just extremely rigorous- gave me a lab and some keys. The lab showed me where things were and said: listen, I'm going to have a couple of kids in the next few years and the best I can do for you is to be available when you need me, but figured out. Don't burn the lab down, don't kill yourself, go for it, and so it's you're kidding me this is. There was no one else in their authority in this perfect tinfoil on the windows, lock the doors rancid blasting all day in northern ox on the door and just do experiments experience experience we published, can papers together what kind of experiments? Ok, so it give me an example. So, the time I'm thinking like eighth grade, eight hours like sure I tried peroxide peroxide zone ever whatever little disclaimer now my laboratory mainly focuses on humans, but the time we're using animal models of the time and listen- I have mixed feelings about this to the time we're doing experiments on carnivores in including cats and ferrets, because but visual system that Terry very immature, so we are studying. Neuro plasticity wishes the brains, ability change in response to experience, really
we define fundamental principles that do carry over to humans and we were. I was also there's a primate centre. Davis words doing work on non human primates, Mcculloch Monkeys, big dangerous monk, that you wouldn't want to be left alone with, but I was working trend understand. Embryonic developments are working freedom with tax, so going to do, surgeries on freedom of action and I loved I loved working with my hands, also discovered something in science which sitting in learning from books is great, but a lot of energy, and I need to put that some place and do careful dissections for hours and hours was a great way to check. I learned They take all that energy that normally would go into big movements and just channel it into total focus. I could spin eight hours down the microscope just doing dissections and listening to me it can do in their sections of our data play this game where I try and get his lamp. Up in alert as possible by listen to music and drinking coffee, and then just do might dissections slowly as possible does it all is crazy, stuff and in those years,
still going to shows. There was a place up and in Sacramento rough place and I started going to seem Roger Moraine. The disasters play and you know, as you know, is agnostic front rugged. It's only critical, the great Roger Marae I'd go to the shows where I was legitimately afraid. You know I'm not at that point. I last thing I wanna do is get into a fight, I'm just legitimately afraid of what's going to happen. This was at a place called the boardwalk and there's a place up on Broadway the colonial theater, and they would do mexican wrestling one night with the hands dipped in glass and then they do punk rock shows. I got to see the transplants, which is TIM, Armstrong, Travis, Barker and bands like that, in a little tiny feeder- and I thought life. Is so good on my phd were publishing papers. I still have arms in this world. Although I didn't know any though the characters and then and she I graduated re- weakened- my phd and went and did a post dock at Stanford. And there was a problem. I was back in the early look.
And there's a stinging neuroscience called condition place preference where something really good happens for you someplace you really like it good and your body was into a great state when you're there, there is also a condition place aversion. And here I am back in Palo, Alto and think cash like this was a kind of a dark place. For me, forget the well trimmed lawns and are in this place is not I'm I'm starting to get depressed. So I to San Francisco and wonder I got this idea. I thought we a second thrashers right over the hill. Why aren't I there? So I have a friend that was it a sibling magazine. Magazines Thrasher, which is slap magazine, is now closed outbreak. Any mark rightly that I grew up with now for apple. called up mark and said: hey you know. What can I do some work for you ass. You said sure do, take photos and said sure: that's not true. as you know how to take a photo so that we can always do music stuff, so I started going to shows in taking pictures and doing right ups and travelling little bit for that. For
some extra cash. What years this two thousand five in two thousand and ten, so damn so there's some publications and thrasher people can might be able to find them Biondo. So I covered moraine. The disasters bouncing souls love those guys I remember when Roger Murray went to jail, and I forget what year it was, but I remember going to they would have like benefit, shows to raise buddy to catch on to what we've down for the Gaza that much well the thing about Rodgers. That is really interesting, and I don't even know if he'd remember, who I was I became friendly with, I think, was his bass player Rhys, there's a use for the Jaspers, great band. By the way I loved that unlike the Genie HAWK song in some of those, are just amazing songs, and I remember You is moray when I was a kid and his neck was like. I used Bulldog Mastiff a a few years ago, Castilians and in Castilla never lifted waits right, but Rogers.
Neck is huge, and this is a guy that probably didn't lift weights, which is huge because he's just born that way and think you know it's like he goes there. big do decide their certain people that research there neck is big enough then let moray and like Moray could sing happy birthday and it'll like it's just his voice. It just comes from so deep inside his body. Just is just a beautiful, an amazing to see what he can do and the physicality of it, and so I did it a thing for Thrasher on Marine, the disasters of transplant starve, bouncing souls going to shows gettin five hundred thousand bucks for article. Said the time as a push knocking on pretty good cause. I'm your life was spent seven when Europe was Doktor, reducing you're, not making much money- and this is because at this time, you're all so at Stanford. You said: that's right doing what, as all it's a postdoc. So when you finish your phd typically, you five years words just pure research before you go, get a hopefully get a professorship
so. I would go to shows stay most of the night. Then come back to Stanford sleep under my bench. Wake up and are doing it remnants and shower at the gym and so in this is that the thing you know those old habits die hard. You said a lot of those are, as you mentioned, a lot of those early years. The decision making and the habits carry over fortunately, I was able to it to move that the good ones forward, the good habits, is so when I was a phd student, I thought why pay rent there. The building here with a shower. It was a cage wash shower for the monkeys, but they never used it to the shower in there or at the gym. I'd brush my teeth in the sink, and it's at sleep there. I did. also as a post office and I confess even eventually what happened was I finished my postdoc. I was hired as a what they call pretend your professor assistant, professor. At U C San Diego. I got a house because at the time when houses down here were it was in normal heights and it was relatively in
and seven. So when from no responsibility, no property, no nothing at a house, old argument in a laboratory, my own, but It is that you see San Lucy, San, Diego Sicily, two thousand Levin, and I thought well commute from normal heights. To? U C San Diego is pretty far so we just put a couch in my office. The dog was fine, there's a field outside where it can take him out, and so I would sleep in lab two nights a week, and then eventually- and I did well there, my lab. how to say this. That credit really goes to the people very hard working published. Could papers had grants in my career really took off in neuroscience, and then eventually was recruited back to Stamford as a tenured. Professor wishes were up and now for about seven years, and even then, when I got back, I thought well, why the housing in the Bay area crazy. I looked at costume, Well, my bulldog was like how can we move back into the lab, so I stayed there until someone finally came along and said this sends the wrong message I said: well, it actually sends the message that there should be better housing for faculty, but I
I save some money that way so that was able to eventually buy a small home. So over the years it's been consistently the same themes. I work hard train and keep out of any kind of mischief which is easy to do now. I value so many things in my life. I wouldn't want to do that, but and then just try and bring the spirit of skateboarding and punk rock music to the whole thing of science, and then that piece of that word. It can arise surround. Is that a few years ago, I decided to write a book, but then, besides, I didn't want to write a book in so start going on, Podcast Joan version and the others, and you know there was this guy Alex Friedman, of course- and he said, maybe we should start a podcast, so I started the podcast and when I did it. I looked to a couple of communities. I thought who can just put things together really well that really understand aesthetics and the d? I y? U do do it yourself and of mantra and get it right, and so
look to Ganem, rob more, who produces the fight podcast, who Teddy ATLAS in who comes from the world of of pr, but also knows a lot about the fight world and I went to might play back whose famous skateboard photographer took pictures of Danny Wage dumping China Dc Shoes, Nike Skateboarding and might just knows how to do the kind of photographs that I like what your black and white very that you know, look there's it there's a common theme, and so that the podcast end Europe, yours, Why do you always wear black shirt and do you know I'm wearing black sure, to work for twenty five years. This isn't it costs too? the bad gas just always addressed this way done it this way and the wonderful thing about social media as you get in touch with people like you and I should say for me: it's a real honor to be here, because when not twenty fifth, two thousand and fifteen sixteen- and I was living with my girlfriend at the time we'd met in San Diego, my ex girlfriend now but
the terms I can tell the story- and there was a kind of weird, maybe she'll theme in our household, because the guy she'd been with before was a team guy right. so it was like I'm back in high school again. You know those guys, I won't say who it is, but you seems like a really nice guy, but teen guy and she was doing Crossfit with a bunch of teen guys and but here I am like the dweeb used to lift weights and do all that. But you know our first part, her first party or gathering were all these guys come around like once again on the smallest person, I'm a scientist, I'm used to being the biggest guy in the room, smallest guy, in the room, real good guys as you as you all are, but What ended up happening was. I was an avid TIM verse podcast listener and I remember looking at the picture- and it was your your grill looking at, and I showed her- and I said I said this guy It was just on embarrassing if he, because, while if
I draw a team guy, that's the guy. You draw, and I thought well there's a lot behind that statement. Let's not I'm not going to ask why, and so. In any case, I love that part. Ass. It was you know when I if you're in San Diego, I was involved a little bit and fitness and martial arts at at real superficial level, and you guys would come in and- and you know, beat everybody up and then go go off laughing and smiling, and leave the rest of us. Mere mortals takes a thing about what just happened, not just getting busy what you guys, would you come in and take over bars yeah, and and so I learn which bars not to drink at now, because I was gonna, get into any mischief with anybody. I know why know, but because You know there are only some. How do I say this correctly it it's a its aim written resource allocation issue? Back sir, So anyway, I've been running my love for a long time. Now the podcast newer thing we ve heard about a year and a half, but the themes of
reporting, Puncak music date? They are not just part of it there. I think this will make sense to you guys. Is it there were there in me right there? their wired into my nervous system and I feel really honoured to be here and also that this keyboard community has reiterates me with open arms and in touch with a lot of those guys, Tony hawked anyway, way back and there so many names and and people and It's an amazing community because Skateboarding and Puncak basic, I don't know about other things, cassettes only what I know but odd, but really special communities, because as you can be, nine years old and hanging out with people learn are thirties and you can learn a lot for better or for worse. but also community, that She more and more is really started. They take care of each other in a way that I think is probably not present in other committees can be harsh too I mean if you screw up
Don't let everybody now so maybe some parallels with the teams now so that kind of It brings us through you're sort of educational system and what you been learnt and along the way- and I would What a grab some of that knowledge you know of of what you ve learned about. You know how to be better. How to smarter how to be stronger, how to be faster, how to be more healthy, because all those things are things that you know I've been trying to do my whole life as well. And obviously not done it on a academic level, but really the trial and error, and and also being surrounded by a bunch people that were always. You know I had that had that same kind of minds that we were very lucky, the seal teams. We had guys that would go way down the rabbit hole on some random former exercise or some random diet. Or what will you some random thing that we would get spread and, and we really
would say around maybe two thousand five, two thousand six. We started really bringing in professionals ashes earlier that we always bring The freshness puts we'd bringing professionals that were really good at their designated field. So I feel like I got very lucky with some of that as well, but policy. You're you're a living experiment on this stuff, and then you have the dac damage to back it up so less talk about some of this stuff and I've listened to a bunch of your stuff, you know and and anyone It wants to go deep on this. Trust me. You can go deeper. Listening to your podcast, I mean you can go real deep yeah. I always say if nothing else will cure insomnia as you listen to who I know not out but yeah. We do go to detail I'm a had the great fortune of of working with some units in special operations, doing talking about physiology and using physiology Yet these are tools that, over the years, I've used, but most
what we cover on the podcasting, what we can talk about now or things that come from other laboratories. one thing I truly enjoy is talking at my own work and research. But a lot of what has been wonderful for me is bringing an expert guess and connecting with people who are experts say in thermal regulation, something The ability to adjust ones temperature through some dedicated actions is the difference between unable to do more work or no more work physically and mentally. We talk about that, but, in terms of things that really enhance performance. We can talk about the what I'll there, two ways to think about biology. One are modulator, sir, and the others are mediators. So there some things that you can do that strongly modulate your ability do lots of other things. Let's just give an example. If I sleep deprive echo for two days, his ability to focus is going to be diminished relative to what it would be if he had slept well for for for two nights. Why well sleep in its various output?
modulate attention, but it immediate attention you can't really use sleeping in real time to enhance attention. Ok, A fire alarm will modulate my attention, but it doesn't mediated so we know module ears, meteors and them importing them. Jane is that there are certain foundational, behaviors dues and doubts that set the stage for you to be better everything so allotted time. He will say. How can I lift me were focus better. Remember things better, say what? Let's think about the foundation of that, and that's always going to come back to two elements and that's sleep and what I call non sleep depressed so sleep is the fundamental practice or part of a twenty four hour cycle where, if you don't get it on a consistent basis, you are down. Regulating your ability to do everything right Metabolism is screwed up immune system is screwed up, etc, etc. However, it
not the case. If you get one night, spat sleep or that if you're not sleeping perfectly that you can't perform well, but listen about sleep and just cause. I think it's important. The gulf most people unless you're pulling vampire shifts on on deployment or your shift worker and thank you shift. Workers will talk about shift work you should try and get really good sleep. Eighty percent of the time, eight percent- save your life, the other twenty percent. I hope you're not getting good sleep for good reasons that you enjoy. But the point is that their couple, things that you can do? First of all, every Sonya body has a circadian rhythm, meaning every cell, as a twenty four hour, circadian clock, that's regulated by genes! Think of these your bodies bunch of the millions of clocks, and he drew a line- those clocks to a single time. This way travel overseas. Your got goes off more easy. You more easily you get sick worry! Your thinking is quite right that the clocks aren't in alignment they're, not in train. As we say. Number one practice for everything. Sleep especially is trying gets natural light in your eyes, within an hour of waking up, if you
wake up before the sun turn on a bunch of bright, white men get sunlight in your eyes once it comes out. If there's dense cloud cover There are still more photons light energy coming through that call cover than there are coming from artificial light, so trying it five to ten minutes without some losses outside in the morning once the sun is out most days, if not all days, This has an outside effect on a number of things. First of all, a modular, the timing of what's called the court, is all pulse once every twenty four hours, you're gonna get a boost in quarters all big spiking cortisol to healthy boost. It sets Your temperature rhythm in motion set your level alertness your level of focus in your mood. You want that cortisol pulse to happen is early in the day. What what's triggering the court is. All pulse declares all pulses naturally and trained by these genetic programmes to happen once every twenty four hours, but light will anchor it to the period where you see bright light a late shifted, cortisol pulses. Imagine the kid that wakes up and spends the
morning in batteries, Spain, the morning by your texting or your indoors in your type on the computer. That's not enough light to accomplish what I'm talking about and then you go outside around new nor one urine. What's called the circle dead zone, which is the time in which light arriving the eyes can do certain things, but it can't time this pulse. That means that cortisol pulse is going to come in the afternoon, which means that your temperature rhythm is going to be shifted, late, and that's your signature of depression and anxiety and difficulty falling asleep user from studies done by the great robber suppose Scheme David Spiegel, my colleagues at Stanford. So you want that increase in cortisol to happen early in the day Basically, you wake up because your temperature goes up. So let me ask you this: I have a century. What time do you wake up? Typically Joe, early between well between four fifteen and for thirty. Ok So, for most, people can be a little bit later. I probably, but for you That means it's your waking up, it's because of it
arm it's because of alarm, but if that's your natural wake up time now without an alarm that means that your temperature is starting to rise at that time. That's why you wake up that temperature increase triggers that cortisol release now and that's. Why don't you wake up right before their alarm clock? It's this cortisol pulse, ok and two hours before that so far, you approximately two thirty in the morning is what call your temperature minimum. It's when you're temperature is lowest that has ever gonna, be in the twenty four hours, If you view light within the four hours after that temperature minimum it will tend to wake you up and will keep you in trained to the normal cycle. However, if you were to wake up at one thirty in the morning and see very right, why it would delay your circadian clock. It would make it so that the next night you'd want to go to bed later and wake up later in the week. It does. That is by changing your core body. Temperature
so the way it works as you wake up because of an increasing core body temperature that increasing core body temperature triggers that increasing cortisol and by viewing light at that time, you in train you, you ensure that it happens at the same time, the next day, when, if I woke up, two o clock in the morning and saw a bright light. would delay your clock. So what you want so when you wake bet for thirty in the morning. It's because your clock is into your the clocks of your body trained their matched to this court, is all pulse so view. bright light in the morning anchors it we say and trained it it tell through it Turkey that involves cells in the eye and cells in the hypothalamus, which then talk to the rest of the cells of the body through Signal Peptide, that's released. Make sure that the temperature starts rising, goes up up up up up up in time around two or three in the afternoon, you're gonna hit your temperature maximum You might feel a little sleepy at that time, but that's actually the time in which your cut you off Your systems are kind of revving it at the maximum capacity, and then it's gonna start to drop and start to drop
drop drop now that drop in temperature eventually will be a full one. Two three degrees below what your temperature maximum and that's when you're gonna get sleepy and fall asleep why it's important to keep the room cool at night to fall asleep. Why keep the room cool way? but warm blankets on and put your hand out. Your foot out cause you actually dumpy through the palms of your hands in the bombs at your feet, if you're in a hot room, you'd have to have like an ice bath next to you to put your hand in that's not feasible, I guess I I live in a luxurious scenario. I can imagine that there's like what kind of person in a situation where they don't see the sun. Oh, so that's all well up, my last been on a submarine, that's horrible, being honest chip. Sometimes you get stuck down below decks and I, Amber this interesting. I remember I would have liked the urge to go out and go outside. I like we would. We would
did you know about my being adopted on a ship? You don't actually have a job on the ship. You just kind of writing the ship, so you'd I have this urge to go outside and we go outside Npt. We go outside, believe it or not. We'd go outside and hacky sack one after the great hockey. Second, I, but not listening to fish, we weren't listening in the first movie. I I'm I'm going to tell you we played so much hacky sack that I kind of hurt one of my knees. It's gotta get through that weird inward rotation of the hip, but we wanted to be outside. I remember having a distinct urge to want to get outside. So it's really sad if people are in scenarios where they are, seeing the sun for four hours upon wake up, that's kind of crazy or or just not getting enough light period, a lot of people think, for instance, they can get the sunlight through the car when shield or through the window, oh carbon shields and windows have uv filtration everyone blue light has been demonized, and we can talk about light later in the evening, because you dont want to get too much bright light in your eyes later in the evening. If you want to improve sleep but
it does not work as well, whereas quickly, through a window or through windshield or through sunlight, his eyeglasses and contacts are fine. If you think about what those do, they actually focus light to the retina. So that's why they're there they'll help you. If there's you baby, protect protection Many people are waking up in there just spending time indoors and they putting on sunglasses getting in their car and driving or theirs club. recover and they think there's no sun out. I don't mean that you actually have to stare at the sun, never at any light so bright. It's going to damage you, please don't and blink as necessary, but the indirect rays from this from sun trigger these cells in the eyes called no one option. Ganglion cells, his gangway cells. These are neurons, they send a signal to your hypothalamus. They also touch them. Thomas releases, this peptide, which is a wake up signal for your whole brain and body, and sets a timer for the onset of melatonin release, sixteen hours later, melatonin being the hormone that makes you sleepy and makes you want to go to sleep, so you can imagine what happens if you don't get that light until a few hours later everything shifted, and then you want to go to go know why you're wide awake at eleven, thirty or twelve
everything's messed up? The other thing is that you can get bright light from electronic devices. Early in the day, but it's not enough. You need photons from sunlight You live in Scandinavia and the depths of winter of European like in you know, Toronto, Haim or Oahu, or something like. Ok, fine, don't an expensive daytime. Simulator get one of these Ellie De Light boxes for drawing their very inexpensive comparison if you find them on Amazon. I don't have a relationship to any of these brands, but they're easy to find twenty thirty bucks, but that on your desk and just look at that thing for a few minutes in the morning, not as good but her than being in the darkness, then, when the sun's out get outside this is a huge huge effect for the following reason: the signal that arise from the eyes of the hypothalamus. Also triggers the release of the Neuro Modulator dopamine, we doping is a feel good molecule. Dopamine dopamine dopamine at dopamine hits, but Dobermans main role in the brain and body is to drive motive,
nation craving and pursuit. It is not the molecule of pleasure, it is the molecule of drive. It is life force, and we'll talk later about how dopamine and testosterone have a close relationship we mean, is actually the molecule from which adrenaline up an effort is manufactured. And you may notice, you said he we crave son it. so does make you feel good. Here's wife, you think about Cecily breeding animals. Let's think about the Arctic Fox. Will the Arctic Fox in winter is white, but The summer time has darker pillage actually, there's a pathway going from sunlight to dopamine to melanin production in the skin and fur so animals that transition from light colored too dark colored. That's all media by dopamine guess what else happens? The gonads grow their animals that I've worked on in the laboratory and that also in huge This has now been shown in a beautiful study that people who get
wanting to thirty minutes of light on their skin. This was a study done in Israel, so they were an appropriate amount of clothing, but their sleeveless, no hat notes and losses there. Told you go outside twenty three minutes three times a week, just in the sunshine. Ideally they were short. Also. They measure testosterone estrogen in men and women. Significant increases in both and All the associated things of increased passion, blah blah blah, what they measured in the study? why well it turns out that light to the eyes, but also light to the skin. The skin is an endocrine organ is not just something to to to and hang earrings from and put clothing on, it actually there's a pathway involving a molecule copy. Fifty three in the corral, no sight of these skins cells that when sunlight, when you re be ultraviolet blue light penetrates the skin. Cancer can penetrate the skin. Superficially triggers he's correctness sites to stimulate a pie way that releases dopamine in the brain and bodies feel better when you're getting light in your eyes and on your skin, your increasing testosterone end up an effort in dopamine increase. That's what you feel good in the sun,
amongst people in Scandinavia know this. This is gonna spring fever in the winter months, you want to go through every bit of effort to double or triple the amount of time that you're spending outside in the morning. So instead of ten minutes, make it thirty and it's you can read outside you can do you could? Could you beyond your phone, but we'll talk about why that might not be optimal issue that there's a study done out of China now ten thousands of subjects. Looking at the end, and a myopia near sightedness in kids, but now this is also true in it it's when you look at things up close, the eyeball actually starts to elongate overtime, and the image then focuses in front of the the neural part of the eye, and things are blurry. That's why they call it nearsighted. It's actually fall, it's not it's not far side, it would be. The image falls behind, so it's just pure optics has fallen in front coming myopic spending time outside in guinea, uv be exposure during the day can offset in some cases, reverse myopia. So all these
it's our spending time indoors on screens and your reading on books, but not getting any outdoor time serious problem now adults are doing this to the pandemic was, there was also a pandemic of myopia and depression. That was simply because people were indorse too much. So get that sunlight earlier they shut down the freaking beaches. In the San Diego's. I mean it was crazy. I went to college. I was an english major and there were something that was one one semester. I took five english classes. Five english classes was a dumb move, but whenever I'm trying to plot out my my classes that I could go to Jiu Jitsu for like three four hours day, so anyways- identity taken five classes, and so I was reading like the weekends I would read like eight ten hours a day and yeah! That's when I realized. Oh, if you don't stop and take a break, your? U like I'd, get done in my walk out.
walk outside in my my vision- would be blurry and cause. I was just working at that close range for five six seven eight hours horrible. You definitely want to get a horizon view every once in a while when you look at a horizon, unless your tracking something on the horizon, you naturally go into panoramic vision. This is a great way to learn how to do panoramic vision. talking about before in environment. Like this, where it's your close quarters, I can look at you and then I can dilate my gaze consciously and you don't know I'm doing it. This is the as we talked about earlier coms, the nervous system, the nice thing, as is also covert. You can be doing public speaking It can be meeting somebody where you're starting to feel a little tense or whatever, and you can dilate your gaze or you can learn to. I think it's a great skill to be able to dilate and and contract the aperture of vision and have a horizon will teach you kind of the feeling of having dilated vision, and then you can contract accomplish that without looking at horizon. So yes, if you're looking at things up close they
if, before about every forty five minutes of doing that, you want twenty minutes of long distance, viewing that's very hard for most people to get in this kind of work. Environment One thing that works really well, the reset the eyes and the nervous system throughout the day is war Sir Great and jobs are great. Why? What turns out that self generated optic flow? So not hell! Sorry work, not a treadmill, sorry, but walking. or running or cycling, or something where visual images are going by you on all sides, while you're in effort, I some beautiful papers, now five papers showing that when we are in self generated optic flow, The amygdala site in the brain, that's commonly associated with fear, but its mainly a sight of threat, detection and anxiety is the activity they the suppressed. I think about this a lot when I read your book and hear stories from the teams of you note this notion of having a forward centre of mass
and how its often harder to stay still right, I know you don't have a retreat. button, but his heart stood still, then it is sometimes to move forward them forward. Movement can actually commerce and so a lot of people there on the precipice of something scary- your challenging will retreat or pause, but forward movement actually suppresses the activity. They may go again has been shown in humans and non human primates in it and in small animal models, and it makes really good sense, be, as forward amputation. Ford movement is compatible with the fear response in many ways. And so one of the big discoveries in our field of neuroscience last few years was laboratories not exploring the topic of you're at all. They rashly looking at I movements in and motor movements and when they did brain wide imaging that their DE sites in the brain, the quiet down when animals are, people are moving forward and the fear centre shut. Down. So if you find yourself afraid I imagine that the other kids I mean handrails are always dangerous. You can you can end your
your family lineage with I seen people do that. I won't name so there's a guy. We grew up with you. Unfortunately, you note. Hopefully he be successfully reproduce at some point, but seeing some hard stacks on handrails, it's not pretty but it's always going to be harder to sit up there at the top of the ramp thinking about dropping in stamp choppy and go when I The kid Gary hauling I mentioned earlier said dominated. Put your tail down on the deck on the top of the ramp. That is, I'm going to skate from one end of the deck to the other, and if I come back the third time and you haven't dropped in pushing you in- and I saw a lot of kids get pushed in now dad did that to his kid on Youtube and I think was punished for child abuse, so now it is the rules of change with back. Then you are dropping in because you didn't want to get pushed him in. It has its always easier drop in and stand there and wait here. What do I do? What I do and that's the suppression they may go when you go into forward action. The fear centres of the brain shut down This is like another little connecting the of the dots,
Nicholas. Guess, he's me talk about there's a million times as like hey when you waiting to do some you're gonna be more scared. You're gonna, build up. You need to step forward. You need to start taking action. Taken. Action is a way to overcome the feeling of has asian fear that you have in your body. So now I have another physiological back up to my instincts, that's good! So we got up in the morning. We got some light. Yeah. This is interesting because I wake up in the morning I work out, but I go for a run by the time, I'm going for run the sun's out perfect. I never and the sun might not be fully. I was going to ask like: does it need to be hitting my skin or can it be kinda below the horizon? Are we good it on a date on a clock, ATLAS this day can be anywhere on a day with more cloud, you probably want to train Orient toward where the sun might be and get out of the shade a little bit too. So you don't have to. out there for more than five ten minutes of your warm goin on you know, half an hour for eighty five minute run great, ah We got some light
and by the way, interesting we I dont, I wear sunglasses a lot and but maybe that's bad. I we're sunglasses actual whilst all the time, if I'm in the sun, but when I over run the morning I never wear sunglasses, sweat and all the others, a lot of sun here in San Diego you're, getting a lot of photons all day long. So there couple things about your practice that are perfectly design. One is year. There are few things that, let's let us make it really simple for people. The goal here is to increase body temperature in order to be awake and to decrease body temperature in order to be asleep If we stay with those themes, a lot of this would just fall into bins, so you Wake up, getting sunlight in your eyes will enhance that were bright. Artificial light and then sunlight if you're up before the sun comes out turn on brighter official rights. If you want to be awake right will enhance the court is all pulse. Cortisol is going to further increase in body temperature exercise. will increase body temperature somewhat. Paradoxically,
into a cold shower or cold water. Everyone says what must make you cold right Well, if you stand there a long time become hypothermic right but let's remember the thermostat example. You have a little airing, rankled, medial, pre optic area and if you may the surface of your body, cold, guess what happens core body temperature goes up so getting in. So if you're gonna do ice baths or court showers you can do say, do them some time better than not at all in there. The whole thing relative to training we talk about, but early in the day, would be better hooker person I get back from my run and go in the ice. if somebody jumps generally five to seven minutes in the ice bath, that's a good long ice bath. But you guys are you guys, are weaned in cold water yeah. You guys, it would. I swim with a guy from the teams, but Pepper DAS it and we supposedly For me, it was a long swim like a one mile. No wetsuit swim in the Pacific for me around the Santa Monica appear in them and then run back for me a bit on quaking like it.
How can I would delirium tremendous by time I get to the coffee shop? We go in there sometimes quaking like there's an I'm convinced. They think that we're all delirium tremens either the cold swim for me, and I don't you have very much anymore. I should do more often, but what s interesting is, he said is the water you guys, like you see the way it's like you want to get in the thing. For me, there's a ten minute break in period. One like I got married and then you have the triathlon on the beach in their wetsuit going. Are you really gonna go in with her with what? Without what suits? I was there. I realized we will go in with what suits. But may I just go home when I had the water, but I never crave. It I always think I don't do this, because here I am and like my don't go in, I feel bad about myself I here of think of serious negotiable, create right. Yet we all know how I will say I think about like four for my from my eyes, but in the morning I've always liked, like I feel so good when I get done that its worth. Shock of when you get it had actually used
the geometry, do get used to the the coach shock of getting it like if I go on a trip for a week and I come back and wherever I am, there's no does noise, which is pretty normal, does not normalized passed around the world, but when I come back that first, they may even the second day. It's a little bit more of a little bit about having some freakin Andy. Human conversations with my life now now now now now deliberation elder hard work is as a name this leader I thank you deserve it you're, absolutely right. It does not but secondly, everybody so well. I'm glad you mention the mood enhancing effect, so there's a beautiful paper, public the European Journal Physiology in the year two thousand, which took people and had them sit there. She had them on launchers in water. A pool is a great way to run an experiment. I would say plasma
What showers are not a lot of experiments on cold showers because think about it's very hard to control? It is everyone under the shower the same way, etc. You put someone up in water up to their neck. It is, you know, you're, it's experimental rigour that drives that. But- They had people get into reasonably cool water, sixty degrees Fahrenheit. So it's not that goal, but they had them stand for an hour or they ve had people get into very cold water, forty degrees for just twenty six, since now here's was really interesting. That shock that you referred to is a adrenaline also called up effort and it is released from the adrenal. Obviously, but also from a site in them, called Lucas truly a little area of the brain stem that then sprinklers the rest of the brain. with the effort and wakes up the rest of the brain, so that shock occurs in Brain in the body and actually the stuff in the body doesn't crossed the blood brain bears a Europe to part system. We talk about this later. Does when two systems are align, its beautiful when those two systems or out of alignment- that's not good. So
you get into cold water. That's the shock for the first thirty seconds for most people who were untrained your for rain, which is controlling decision making, is basically suppressed in it. activity, and other areas are wrapped up suggests is no exact. Panic just understand that passes then, what happens is when you get out of the cold weather how does a longer period at sixty degrees or short period. I would hate to hear that you are only doing twenty seconds, but maybe a minute to three minutes at forty five. Greece or something there's a long arc release of doping and up an effort. That's what was shown in the study in humans cause people is gonna just in mice no in humans and that long, our but dopamine, leads to a near doubling or more of dopamine, and an effort in a colleague on alleged Keys book called dopamine nation. She worse on addiction, runs our dual diagnosis, addiction clinic at Stanford. She talked about a patient of hers that basis
It helped himself get over cocaine, addiction by doing cold thats, because it was the only thing that would give him the kind of dopamine release that even slightly mimicked his cocaine addiction and allowed himself to wean himself off with a healthier behaviour now I'm not saying it's the equivalent of a drug like cocaine, but I am saying that is a better decision. Then then, a drug like cocaine for reasons, so that mood enhancing effect, that you feel afterwards it's real, it's based on a real neuro chemical effect and that doping An effort will combined with the temperature increase from cortisol plus light plus exercise. All things increase core body temperature. Now you got in, for body temperature. You created a Doberman release up and Efron you ve created. A summer month inside your body in them and I don't care if you live in Minneapolis in the depths of winter someplace, even as cold as New Hampshire, your you are creating summer in your body. By doing that,
now. If you live in San, Diego or LOS Angeles were Arizona and it's the summer and you're ding indoors and you're on your phone entered, not doing any movement and will the afternoon which its fine exercise in the afternoon. I realise there some important benefits that and you're. Lying in bed or you're just walked around the kitchen in putting on sunglasses and drive and were guess what your creating a Colorado winter inside of your body, despite the fact that the sun is out, so if you're wondering why you're slightly depressed year, metabolism is lower. Your testosterone output is slightly lower than maybe like to be there could be other reasons to, of course, but again we're time a modular There's I'm not saying getting in your eyes in the morning is make your testosterone perfect. What I'm saying is your you're setting an internal mill you through things that increase core body temperature, dopamine up an effort, etc. And that should be done relatively early in the day now we could
skip to something about temperature, just to benefit people turn book and the the opposite end of the day as the evening one around. Oh I'm sorry, you asked a question. I want to close the hatch on this about son low. In the sky. You do not need to see the sun rise across the horizon. However, the cells in the eye that trigger all this, the so compelling option gang themselves, spawned best, a yellow blue contrast the next time you see a sunrise or a sunset. You will see the yellow blue contrast, I'm referring to what it's associate with his. low solar angle, sunlight so if the sun is directly overhead that yellow blue contrast. Isn't there take a picture with your phone and everyone will see what I'm talking about. So, don't want to see the sunrise you're not getting up his earliest Jacko. That's fine, but around let's get up at eight. Thirty and you're side by nine in the sun is low in the sky is certainly not overhead you're. Still getting that yellow blue contrast, it triggers the optimal activity of these cells www would also sees get some sleep. in your eyes in the afternoon, because it
it turns out. You don't have one circadian clock, one master clocking in of two also leaders. This gets a little bit tricky and about physics, but you have a morning us later in the evening also later for but think about also waiters geeks out there. Two oscillators can predict. Many for things. It's not it's one plus one equals eight in this case having to oscillated allows you do numbered computations in the brain, including timing, the onset of sleep, metabolism etc. So try. And get some sunlight in your eyes in the evening as well. Here's why I dunno, I said early in the day. You need sunlight and a lot of light to trigger these pathways late in the day. Retinal sensitivity goes up, so if you see bright light in the, evening and your viewing too many screens and too much bright light in the evening, it's very easy to wake your system up so you want to really dim the lights in the evening. You don't necessarily have to wear blue blockers. In fact, if you weren't blue blockers and the light is still too bright, it will make a difference because its broad spectrum light will trigger these path. Was so dimmed the lights in the evening lower that
Temperature in your home were in the room that you sleep and evening. b were afternoon, would be a great time too. I don't get the sauna. Take a hot shower, take a hot bath. Why well, if you stay in a long long time, of course, you'll heat up. But again, if you heat up the external part of the body, your core body temperature will drop after you get out of that sauna. After you get out of that bath and when it comes to sign a doctor on Patrick's, really that the more proficient one here, but we ve, talked about this larger there are other ways to use sauna. How just mentioned in hot bows work also really well With studies showing enormous increases in growth, hormone were done the following way: they had people get into a hot sauna. For thirty minutes, then get out for five minutes. Thirty minutes, then five minutes out thirty minutes. If I miss out for a total of two hours in the sauna, between one hundred and seventy five and two hundred and ten degrees on how often one
the weak if they did it more often the amount of growth hormone release went from sixteen fold increase, which is pretty mega down to a two or three folding or gas. Worse got worse because you become he'd adapted and you can also become cold it out its. We could talk about cold and how to use cold, but remember them. a comfortable. You get with a stimulus, the less of an adaptation affect you're, getting just like waits are running or anything else. Now. It is true that the more often that people did twenty minutes of sauna at one hundred and seventy four to two hundred and ten degrees Fahrenheit think that's eighty to one hundred degree Celsius. If I recall The more often they did that two or three times we turned out to be better than one in five to seven times turned out be better than to three for lowering all cause: mortality and death to cardiovascular events No we're talking about growth, hormone release. You want to do it every once in a while for many hours with breaks in the middle, for improved over all health. Getting blood flow you time doing it every night would be
Eight so depends on what your goal is the same thing with the water. If you want to build, resilience well make the steam Was this terrible as possible and here's the easy way to do it. I like to kind of poked fun at the tough guys on the internet who get into the ice bath and sit there really stoic. guess what there's this thing called the thermal layer that is up around you and you are sitting there really stoic you're, not making as cold as you could be guys and gals sift your body around a little bit now. Oh it's called get those hands under get those feet under an pedal those while keeping your mind com. It is considerably call their because you're breaking on Thursday, hence the waves honour their own corner sucks when you cause- I am I but why I have like the little jet minors little jet on the side. You know it's
it's ionizing, the water or whatever. So it's shooting in and like that side is super cold, because it's flowing past your body, my other side, I got it perfectly still. I got a thermal layer, just you know, keeping be all toasty warm on that right side. Well, I would say you know it's. It's fun play with the ice bath, because you can what you're doing as you can play with your relationship to adrenaline. So the way I think about ice and cold showers and things I think it is a series of walls when you get into the shock that you describe that's a pulse of adrenalin in your brain embody within. You might ask yourself this question of if you can withstand something for a second, why not a minute and if a minute, why not three hours well. The reason is that adrenaline his release, impulsive tile fashion, and they come and so one wave than another way. So it's your building. It's like an upward spiral of adrenalin. It's not one, then down to zero one. It's one down two point, five to point five, so its building on itself in the brain and body in this circulates gets more and more.
I won T go now and then it gets easier, as you know. So one thing to do is just imagine and actually Aren't you sense, the waves of adrenalin so made the first wave, is just getting in the damn thing, maybe Why me, I think, there's one wall, you climbed over that, while now you're in then, you could say: well, I'm go thirty seconds and then maybe it twenty seconds, you'll feel that wall you thought thirty, but that war, comes climb that, while, when you start to notice, is the walls actually start getting further and further apart his adrenalin has this incredible anti inflammatory numbing quality. Do it, so the walls actually get lower as time goes on, but they start off very hi. That's the way that I think that the ice bath in that maps to the way that adrenaline physiology actually functions, So again it's that first, those first steps are the hardest thing about this. When I wake up in the morning- and I don't want to do something- I often see your watch staring at me on my phone. I do- and I think I like this is a big one when? I think ok, but the walls are gonna, be diminishing overtime and even if it gets here,
adrenalin bolsters you in that way to magical molecule, so towards evening, heat is going to be beneficial Other thing is dim the lights, obviously, because the lights are serving as a wake up signal and then You know a lot of people have this problem, that they go to sleep and then they wake up at three in the morning or two in the morning. They can't fallback asleep. and so I said, the two major module ears are sleep and non sleep depressed and non sleeper, store. Sdr is a phrase that to be a direct aid, point to encompass a lotta behaviors that are designed to just Teach you to lower your level of activation. You're nervous system
meditation is one form, but the problem of meditation is meditation involves focus. You have to pay attention to your breath, for instance, sit there and meditate that actually puts a high demand on the metabolic systems. Are the forebrain so its work? It's like reading is up your reading. Your breath in your thoughts, non sleep, deep resting includes things like as a kind of corny name for some. It's called yoga negro, which means yoga sleep. You lie down, you just listen to a script. You can find these. Youtube or elsewhere, ten minute ones or thirty minute ones. Take you, through a body scan some long, exhale breathing talk about why this comes the body or There are various forms of hypnosis that really involve teaching you to relax so now sleepy breast is kind of a general term for. things that we deliberately due to teach our body to down regulate in real time and so I highly recommend that if people have trouble falling back asleep in the middle of the night that they turn on a yoga Nidra and listen to that or they use an app like reverie, which I think they have a free trial
there there another open Natura English speaking or is it a chance or what's the open each gone, it means yoga. Sleep beds existed for Thou Tens of years has you lie down. It's the the scripts are in English, the once it you'll find on Youtube There is actually an Sdr script put out by a team guy in his company made, for these are against Your across tools against listen to them. You it I see through a body scan a lot of long, exhale breathing. The reason he put that out there and the reason why I talk about an Sdr is that when people here yoga, Diedre or the year meditation, they think you know plying carpets, monks and load. his position and one of the problems with science and with some of the better practices from different communities in in you know, asian and indian communities. Is that a lot of its vaulted behind the language. You know science is guilty of this to you start talking about adrenalin and locust Ceria, and if you don't put in context, we like yeah. That does mean anything
you're gonna be dried, sounds like something very foreign end of the day, not sleep. These depressed practices are all about the same thing we a system in our body called the autonomic nervous system. This is a system that, when bomb blast goes offer you hear a loud noise. Immediately. Put adrenaline in your body most amazing molecule right, I mean, if you think about it, you didn't need sleep, you didn't need a nap. You need caffeine. All of a sudden. You are alert you're done, you're you're you're there, rather that's the socalled sympathetic nervous system getting activated broad system goes out. But simply a simple means together and you but chain of neurons call the sympathetic chain ganglia that run from your belly button up to about your heart when some, external stimulus where some thought triggers the sympathetic nervous system, although cells fire up at once, he just pulse of adrenalin into your body, Are they trigger the pathways declares that sounds when you're driving? You almost got an accident. You feel the adrenaline right leg reaching out to your fingers. Extra feel. Combat
happening literally emanates from the centre and it what's interesting is in fish and other animals, all mammals of all kinds, but also in fish. It actually triggers the muscles of the of the that Drastic muscles in the motor neurons there to start undulating to know which direction ago, animals they get into a threat mode, often have an undulation to them. That's the sympathetic nurses You know, a body in motion is more available for movement in any trajectory adipose being completely still at. So then, you have another system, which is the parasympathetic nervous system at the other end of the sea saw and its neurons that exist from the neck down to about the heart and from the belly button down to the bottom of your tailbone. Those are the ones that so called rest, and I just system, but it's much more than that. Its also the system that allows you to dilate your gaze reflexively right. You can learn how to do that. Understates of high adrenaline, if you like, but naturally when you're relaxed your gaze dilates,
Reproduction is kind of a balance between the two, the press as of reproducing the verb literally of sex, not the biological sex, but the verbs access is a process of the autonomic cease. Others arousal, which involves a balance in these systems, etc. Kids, look it up not to young couple really age. Kids. Look it up, but that's it it's it's in. current to the to the evolution of our species is a balance between activation and calm, and so when We are born, we have an asymmetry in this autonomic nervous system that Symmetry is the following: none of us need to learn how to stress or react adrenaline, that system the activation sympathetic nervous system is automatic in response to different thoughts and stimulate coal, for instance, being the universal trigger of adrenalin, why not use he? Well, can only you so much he before you damage tissues or kill people, you can use a lot of cold. This
they know on Coronado. He can use called a lot before it'd, be you you have to be careful, but you have to get pretty damn cold for a long time before you die, but do be careful with the stuff. Obviously, now the parasympathetic system is different. We rarely learn how to calm ourselves. We all are familiar with getting sleepy and falling asleep. That's the person pathetic nervous taking over the longer, we are awake the bill longer the build up of something called a dentist in the brain embody and a dozen turns on the person that it never system suppresses the sympathetic nervous system. When we sleep a Denison is pushed back down. What is caffeine caffeine effectively through some chemical steps? blocks the effects of identity. So if you wait so here's a lot track. If you That'S- and I don't like the word hacks, because hats imply using something for a purpose, it wasn't design for here we're talking about hard wired biology, but if you wake up in the morning- and you didn't sleep quite as much as you would have liked, that means you're sleeping? That means you still have a build up of agenda. Seen in your system,
Let's say you immediately reach for caffeine, great you suppressing action of that agenda scene and you will be more alert. Guess it happens, then the caffeine wears off and the adenosine binds to the receptors with greater affinity, and you have your afternoon crash and so a practice. It's very easy. Will the people is to delay the intake of caffeine by sixty two ninety minutes after waken. Allow all the agenda seem to be cleared out? This is not just cleared out in sleep. It's also cleared out in those kind of sleepy states of early morning so allow it to be cleared out. The other thing that clears it out exercise exercise. So when you get up in the morning you're kind of sleepy, I don't want to do this. I don't want to do this, but you hydrate and train you clear out the adenosine. Now I like to drink caffeine before a trainer during training and weekly but for people to have an afternoon crash, this can have tremendous benefits of and maybe start by pushing up fifteen minutes per day. Most all
every one that does. This has only Guinness. I didn't understand why in the afternoon and crashing so hard, this will really really help. I'm curious. Do you drink coffee before you train no survivors for weak people right. I don't like the taste of coffee I also don't drink any caffeine. I drink one of my one of my go drinks or anything like that night. As a wake up. You know I I drink water in the morning and I go workout and I've I've thought about. It You know I thought, then this I thought about, and I not that well but it seems kind of weak to like half day. Do that re? Yes, I didn't do it. but there has been time from thinking man like I'll see. You know It doesn't really look at other people and there'll, be like drinking coffee, isn't working out first thing in the morning and I'm thinking you know, maybe I should do it. You know. Maybe I am wrong. open to being totally wrong. Well, here's the thing a journal is the most incredible molecule in biology, and I do believe it is for its capacity to immediately.
Robert Intentional Systems and our readiness systems. Dopamine, is perhaps the second place winner there, but still a significant. One. You know, there's this incredible experiment that's been done in animals and humans. That really illustrates what Dover does take two rats. They ve done this with people naturally occurring situations, and you put rats next to some delicious water. They they like water with sucrose in it, or a delicious, food and you and the rats will reach up and drink that or eat that food. One of the rats it turns out doesn't even have neurons that make dopamine or all their dopamine is blocked by it. action of a drug turns out. They will indulge in that food. Just fine, just like the one that has plenty of dope so just to just to make sure I'm tracking you got two rats yup separate one them has. Their dopamine has been blocked correct, but at this point there are both just
eating the sugary drinking, the sugary water, just everything's, fine, get taste good and the experience pleasure both of them experience, pleasure proof that double mean is not required. To explain pleasure. Now you do a simple experiment: use simply move the location of the food or water, one rat life away from the rat and guess, what the rat with its Doberman walks over needs, the food might even cross a little metal plate where it gets an electrical shock, but you know it's Hungary and it wants to eat. So don't take this the zap and do it the rat without dopamine won't even walk one around so to get its dopamine. Even if the food is laid out on the floor for dopamine is not the molecule of pleasure is the molecule of motivation desire in pursuit see. This is interesting. We had an experiment that we talked about on here. I had a back in the day had an army and for whatever reason we had. I had taken the Mitchell
which, if ice cream and put it the army freezer. For some reason. I forget why and when that when that stuff's in the freezer in the house, it was like, oh cool, I'm going to get it's right there, we're gonna, go, get it right, but I guess I wasn't dopamine fueled enough. Like three or five days went by before us. I really want it. So many go get it well, it's It is the molecule drive the way to think about dopamine. It is that it is a non infinite, yet renewable resource non infinite. Yet renewable. What do I mean by that well. This relates to the EU, the energy drink, coffee in question. Should you be doing all this stuff? Just as adrenaline epinephrine is released in response, Just psychological stressors, physical, stressors, cold, water, final exams, you know broken, really ship excitement these are generic molecules item I mean there used to create activation states in the body. Dopamine is
molecule of motivation, pursuit and desire, and it can be triggered by a number of different things. However, it is a non infinite, yet renewable resource. So if you have too big a dopamine released let's say from methamphetamine cocaine groundwork American going. There were, or let's say I want to be fair cause. I I you know no people or from being in love. but gunfights in in a short period of time period immediately after that will involve A mirror symmetric decrease and over me, you don't go back down the baseline. You go below baseline, so we all should guard our dopamine peaks very carefully little bit goes a long way. A lot goes even further, but it also takes you down deeper afterwards. This is the basis of addiction, and this is the beautiful work on a limb key and Rob Lanka, Stamford and elsewhere, showing that it will
goes down. Do we want it back right now, so that the deep afterwards is actually associate with a molecule called dine orphan, which is the opposite of endorphin and involves pain in the body. So for every bit of pleasure that we get from pursuit and getting the thing that we were pursuing. The crash that comes afterwards feels painful and all that we need to do in order to return to a baseline of dopamine renew. That resource is to wait and make sure that we don't try and trigger yet more dopamine. In that time so you asked about. Should I be taking feed in addition to training and blasting music. I we say people differ on this spectrum, but be careful about stacking dopamine tree I itself as a stimulus for dopamine release, cold water as a stimulus for dopamine. But if you start doing training cold water, listen, to hear your favorite music plus your taking, let's say
some stimulant doesnt. Obviously that students we may talk matter are terrible, but some of it, the stronger stimulants out there used to be ephedrine and back when I was in college, Now big people taking arrow matter on. Who is that review now? You re rarely liver, yeah, guy work with, unfortunately die, but here you would, you would see lacking is in my power to you- would see he hee we take that you gotta Ribby, read well, he's got any ready, they re. Actually, you can tell us somebody has a lot of dopamine adrenaline in their system just by looking at them. Their pupils are big so somewhat? Paradoxically, when people our big. Your visual aperture is narrow that just as do the other, with the so called the combination of the objects of the ice, Remember, big pupils means somebody is high on their own, dopamine adrenaline could be drug induce, could be situational, etc. Small pupils are going relax state. Now, of course, it's also going to be measured by how bright it is an environment, because the way these systems work, but
when you can see somebody wide eyed well, opening the adrenaline also do something else. They actually trigger activation of the brain stem cranial nuclei that cause opening the eyelids they also thousand eyes up effect. When we get sleepy what happens our eyes go down when we're awake, eyelids are open and eyes or up there might not be up like this, these relate to three different cranial nerve nuclei for the future met students, you'll learn what these are so it all makes perfect sense when when, because nature is beautiful in the biology is laid out for us, but if we start stacking, behaviors, plus pharmacology plus You know mindsets that increased opening great, but what that means that, if you get a really big dopamine increase well then at afternoon you might not feel the drive to do the work. You might think. Why am I sleeping in the after? Why am I kind of less motivated or next day for training without that pharmacology, you're thinking, I add that
the work out, isn't I don't get? Why does intensive contraction? I must hurry exactly. Did you like that? You draw the hype Jane and I'm just thinking about it, because you know a lot of them the last meeting of our time you know like get fired up deduced. then I dont actually do it. You know that's a common sort of thing for humans and and now I can try to track it a little bit o you yourself super worked up, and then you let that go or you you know. Maybe you work for a little bit of time like rats. Hey writing. A book relevant a bunch of books is new not like hyped to write. The book you, but you are all matters- can be argued that we want As for seven minutes of hyping Bro chop wood carry yeah yeah, then it's like. Oh, this is just going to suck and that's just the way it is. But now I realize, if you this is what I like about this. If you're aware of the fact that oh This is my dopamine crash and I can't x I shouldn't
anticipate continued hype. HU this situation, I need to push through it, that's good awareness to have deaf italy- and you know nowadays you hear especially in Silicon Valley but dopamine fasting. You know the people, I don't even want to look at somebody else's face, I'm not going to eat any. You know tasty food I'm not gonna, do anything that stimulates dopamine short. That will reset what you find pleasurable, but let's be realistic. The better way do. Things would be to modulate dopamine. Really, control it make it work for you and every. we're going to differ so for some people it's gotta, be music. The pre work out the you know for Kosovo. Brussels and you know in some screaming in their face that they have to do it well, for other people who were clout require fewer of those variables. but everyone needs to learn how they feel both before, during and after a behavior, you know I think the right amount of exercise is what you can do consistently and train hard, but that also allow you to perform unless you're an athlete and that's your your profession able to do the other things throughout the day that are beneficial to you
and, of course, some people training late in the day, and I have no problem with that. I cut kind of attacked by the the witness the niece does recently or whatever you call them. Unlike, as I said, you know, training early in the day, subsystem impulse training The day has been shown in these nineteen studies. Sure I'm sure before, when your body, temperature is elevated later in the day, and you know lubrication of the joints in your mental acuity sure, but for most people who just need to get more movement or trying to maximize focus and productivity throughout the day early day, training is going to be probably the better option, but bet sometime is better than no time, but if you're training late in the day and you're getting a big increase in body temperature in you're, doing it under bright lights in your drinking pre work out, and you wondering why can't sleep at night, it's a unit you dont have to be Sigmund. Freud or a neuroscientist should understand that your basically just have your body to your cranky, your body temperature up. Hence a lot of these technologies, and here this isn't a promotion. We at least I now don't have a relationship to him? I won't even name them. There are a lot of
technologies. Now about make your bed cool this matter that this you know to cool down your, but your body temperature at nights. You can sleep. So if you start thing about this and a rational structure, it makes sense it also makes sense why, for instance, after a big win, sometimes we feel crap and we need some time to reset and that low or depression. Sometimes people make the mistake of going out pursuing more dopamine one of the areas that I have real concern about, just cause I hear about it so often, and it wasn't in issue when I was growing up is a lotta young guys in particular approach me because their based on the questions I'm getting there watching a lot of really intense porn Murphy, and that has we know their studies now going on at Stanford elsewhere. Let your pornography it created strong dope, in Russia. These are very primitive pathways that in some ways can overwhelm the dopamine system, and then you know another thing is happening: young guys, are getting always arousal from watching other people have sex
and then there in the real world scenario, and it's like wait. You're no longer third person in this European year, Surely in the sea, and they end it's completely collapsing them and so I'm not one of these anti porn people. I you know I am not here to judge I'm just a scientist, some reporting, the, I would say, I'm not doctor. I don't prescribe things, I'm a professor, so I profess You can decide what you want to do with it or not, but if you want, you understand, dopamine that all makes perfect sense they're getting this enormous dopamine released from something that is extra. Nor to them in real life. You know, may not mimic the intensity of the combination of variables, writing or People are exercising for a while, and it's all exciting to them in their in their duty, can tons and tons of pharmacology do it and then they can lose motivation. Well, it remember non infinite, yet renewable resource, that's being aware of these things I think, is so important, because wit, far be it.
If I said, hey, you're gonna walk through my house and I'm gonna scare you gonna jump. Scary at some point. I probably wouldn't be able to do it- cause you'd, be aware waiting and I jump out and go boo and you'd be like. Oh, you have to you know whenever I be able to do that, but imagine if I didn't tell you right and I yeah I come by my house and you know just just let yourself in I'll, be there in a little while then I freakin jumped out and scared. You you'd be scared because you're not aware of it you're, not aware of what's going to happen so having awareness, I remember, had a fighter who had been hired. The competitive ressler and he was gone. a fight in a in a big organization. And he was sought alike, I was a hey. Are you feel nervous at all? This was a couple weeks prior Harry shall nurses he's kind of blow me off a little bit. You know hey I've been fighting for. I been, I been wrestling for my whole life. I've been competing, I've been on the national stage, blah blah blah right, I'm not nervous. I said okay great, I should have known better
because when he went and fought now is in the EU have see and he got nervous and what really I think Mr Mop was, he didn't understand and what was happening. Then I remembered I used to talk to like a new guy that was showing up on deployment and you'd seen before and up and you can see the look on her face like they are scared and what their scared of, is they're scared of getting. getting killed and get blown up. That's fine, they're scared of doing a bad job. That's fine! But what really is make him nervous is the fact that they feel nervous. They don't know what that feels like, because they made it through training and they've jumped out of airplanes and they've. You know Scooby I have the night off the coast and so they're they're used to being frayed and they don't they don't feel fear anymore. So they don't even understand what it feels like. So then, all of a sudden they get knots in their stomach, their heart it's gone and they that's what they're scared of it way. We feel like this and its freaking out, so when are you? Are you feel like you got some butterflies uneconomic right now you know feel like you, have gone a little bit and they go in there. Don't wanna tell you the truth. They're ignore no, I feel finds a bullshit. I can see.
And they will yeah as a cool you're, just you're just nervous, just your body. Getting ready for combat is no big deal, Evans going to feel like that, and then they feel ok, so situations that you're talking about where, if dont know what it is. it's like that enough can can kin make you fall where's, hey- listen after you, gotta get big dopamine hit. You're, not gonna, feel fired up three hours later. That's when you, put in the work, be aware of the fact that you won't feel like doing it because the green or what the hosting feel like one anymore. It's like yeah. Of course you didn't you God you're dopamine and your two used it and you need to let that thing rebuild, but you could still go a good work out and you can go still complete the task and go still rights more. You know, but for your boy, that you're doing or do whatever labour you gotta do. So I think it today important for people to understand, what's going on inside, so they don't feel like it's do. Maybe I really want to do this. You know. Maybe you want to be here. You know I'm not a scam
because I changed it to at night or in the afternoon, and man when I was in the team. Sometimes you come home and you're like man. Do I really even want to do this right now and I would just say: yeah you do yeah, it doesn't matter how you feel he's just going to do it so being able to overcome that. I think that's what's nice about what you're informing us of is people can now Oh, I know what this is. This me being a wimp. This isn't me, you know not wanting to do this. It's my own natural. You know Hormones that are doing this thing make me feel this way and I can work through absolutely extremely well put You know earlier, I mentioned in the reference to sunlight. I talk about dopamine interest strong testosterone as a huge number of effects in the body and its sibling molecule. If, if you will die Hydra, just Austrian is perhaps the more dominant Anderton die hydrotherapy, hd ochre, you know
there are a form of logic versions of this right ox, Andrew alone and of war. I M not suggesting people take those right. What I'm sorry about the day. She you make naturally very powerful energy in its converted from testosterone into the EU, d, h d and the conversion of testosterone to D H, T through a molecule called five alpha, reductase anytime, you hear ace. It's almost always an enzyme ace basic cap, the proteinase, okay, so DH. he is going to cause him male pattern baldness. So this law, will your widows peeking here widows peak yet yeah. But what? What was a widow's peak, er MEI Mei, now elaborating, whereas if he does die hundred testosterone, causes beard growth on the face and causes male pattern, baldness as inverse effect on the scalping on the face, like as other effects, strength, etc the testosterone molecule. The dopamine molecule bear a very close relationship. So if somebody pushes pushes pushes really hard wins, winds wins, yes, that will increase testosterone, winning increases testosterone losing decreases testosterone in all
venues, so please don't do this. With with day traders win win, win, win, win more money, they get more tests are losing ok. Now The interesting thing episode of by podcast, with the great Robert Support Ski wrote, why zebras don't get answers the trouble with testosterone et Cetera. Let's talk about their effects of testosterone, indeed, sixty in the brain, the main effect of these engines in the brain is to make effort feel but because of the way that testosterone in d, bind to receptors and activate certain complain. So the amygdala we all say the major- was a fear center, but it's a threat, detention centre and has a lot of different parts, including parts that allow you to be forward centre of Mass in response to pressure. So my suggesting people take exaggerates testosterone. No, that's a personal choice that people can explore on their own if they want to do that. But if you I ve been pushing, pushing, pushing and winning winning or just pushing really hard and then you've experienced that crash a lot of people
need some time to recover in order to be able to come back and be able to work hard again. But here's what's really interest, not only does testosterone make effort, feel good effort increases to stop well. So this is the athlete or the student who they don't want to do it. I don't want to do anything getting into some degree of forward center of Mass. I would say I think I picked us up from God's reaching guy language, you can either be back on your heels, lot, footed or forward centre of mass on anything getting into that forward would centre mass mental orientation, and start to trigger some of the pathways related to these hormones in these new modulator. What you dont want: to do is start using a lot of exogenous factors, caffeine or a lot of things outside of you in order to try and create those states, because then you're gonna further deplete your dopamine and so on when I think he went on Rogan at one point and I overheard a portion that I listen to a portion of the conversation where you said you would been working really hard and then you went on vacation and then you got so this is interesting. That's the autonomic nerve! That's happened to me like
numerous times. Okay, so so, there's a very clear explanation for that in a very simple remedy: what's not obvious, which is why many people experience this. Many people spreads strutting for finals and then it ends getting sick. taking care of a loved one round the clock. The person either get herb, sometimes dies or whatever it is, and then the caretaker get sick. Why is that we always here, that stress compromises the immune system now, thing could be further from the truth. Stress activates, the immune. And think about how would your immune system, your spleen and your other immune organs of the body know when it's under pressure? Well, you could have some fun or bacteria or virus in your body. But when you are in a mode of go, go, go the molecule adrenaline triggers the release of killer, be cells in tee cells, from the split it when you relax. Now you need to get your sleep, but it's when you finally experience that cement. Tricks, swing back of the sea. Saucer go, go, go, go, go boom and then you can.
Wheatley, relax and you're hang out and also get the sniffle and the thing this is theirs. Beautiful study done by that was done in response do none other than whim. Half believer in others are really beautiful. Quality scientific study published in the proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences where they had two groups of people. One group meditated, the other group did Wim Hof type breathing. So what we call in the laboratory, sickly, copper ventilation, so inhale exhale inhale exhale twenty five times, a forceful, inhales enforceable. Exhales then hold your breath lungs empty. For fifteen seconds repeat for about three rout: what is that you? Why do you heat up adrenaline, it's a generic thing. It's adrenaline, you can go into an ice bath. Adrenalin, you could get some were shouting your face. Adrenaline is just adrenaline. What what did they do? They injected both groups of people with equal lie. Inject
somebody COLA. One group gets nauseous vomiting and feel sick. The group does this sick, Iver ventilation. Whim half also called to mow type breathing far fewer symptoms if any, including lack fever. So why? Well? They were able to combat the the attack of this bacteria so if you're coming off of a hard bout of work, you're starting to relax into vacation, you would be wise to still get into some cold water. You would be wise to still do some sickly carbon ventilation breed Certainly don't you those at the same time a number of people actually have died, doing sickly cover ventilation and then doing breath holds because when you exhale lot of carbon dioxide. Carbon dioxide is the trigger to breathe. This is really important if, if you do hyper ventilation, and then you hold your breath. You can do a lot much longer breath old than you could if you just started off without having done that. Why that you don't take breasts because of a need for oxygen, although you do need that you take rest because of a build up of carbon dioxide triggers these brain stem neurons, which have you do the guy
briefly. Ok! Well, if you dump all your carbon dioxide and you're, not a skilled, free diver, like Marquis or somebody like got really understands that what happens is your swimming along the way? I really hope my breath down your long time lights out. I am aware of a few people in the military community who who ve dabbled with we have two more type breathing and have died in. Not it's not good, not allowed, basically, its hunting purpose early non encouraged from what I understand, Sir do it on land away from water and the idea here is that adrenalin protects us. You dont want it cascading out of control so that you can't sleep. You want to use things like non sleepy. Breast in the appropriate timing of light and exercise it set are to be able to sleep while at night to reset all these systems. But if you go to quit, we from go go go, go, go to complete relaxation, your immune system, your defence system will crash too, and so you know
we able to fight off even that even the smallest or that you know the prettiest of viruses and bacteria. That's when you get the sniff we get. Second, like I'm finally resting what's goin on So you can take her out of those high intensity phases. You're. Actually you guys in the teams of earth now that I think are aware of this and are starting to think about and for various effects, but in the mind, to stop John makes effort feel good. Adrenalin puts us into a motive readiness doubling It puts us into a motive motivation and then there the mirror site of all this, which are the Neuro chemicals that broadly defined, promote relaxation and parasympathetic activation, and those come under the names that you call her than before, like serotonin oxytocin and the hormone prolactin, serotonin oxytocin are molecules make us feel good. Make us feel soothed, not in response to things that were motivated to go get, but in response to what we all many have so. This may sound a little whew by Now, if you sit there and do a gratitude practice,
or you hang out with your dog in your kids. Are you eat a meal Your nourishing yourself with food that you are not in the process of having to kill. First, you just really in you know Thanksgiving a few moments of of appreciation, simple things, the feel good that you experienced the loving kind. His meditations. These kinds of things we know base under imaging studies and blood draws and things that sort promote the release of things like serotonin and oxytocin that nature, his design, beautiful systems of pursuit and pleasure that are designed to oscillate and designed to keep us in pursuit and pleasure cycles. in relationships, typically the dopamine phases. The early phase simultaneously me cycles, oftentimes not simultaneously. Typically, dopamine and serotonin are released. Always there's, always some floating around our system at any moment, but typically doping In an adrenalin are associated with pursuit of things that are outside the confines of our immediate possession and our skin
search on is more about the things that we have the things you know get senior kid holding your kid that promotes the release of oxytocin in serotonin feels amazing right So the molecules that lead to our resolution is a species, so I'm not diminishing one or the other, but they need to oscillate early relationship. There are times when people aren't sleeping room, just like a mental illness. It's like I'm the form of mania, yours excited you dont need sleep right. People are able to to, who do all sorts of things at frequency and intensity that they find them, two years later in a relationship and they loved the person, it's very warm and cozy, but well unless they're going often deployments and coming back. They don't have that reset of the of the system. So you know, the ability to miss somebody reset that pursuit didn't desire, system These are powerful systems and they don't just pertain to romantic relationships. This is also school. I was
I always did summer school because I had to do a lot of catching up to do based on it. You know a lot of catching up but you know there's some value in taking a week off realize you are truly resetting all the systems for pursuit, and I hear from a lot of hard driving folks. Well once I understood dopamine, I realize why I'm so burnt out people there adrenal burn out, guess what there's no oh actual medical term, adrenal burn out, there's adrenal insufficiency Cindy. That's a rare syndrome, but you have enough adrenaline pact away in your brain, a body to four three lifetimes thing that what people used to go: throw you talk about some of the sun, your podcast, you see the images of people and read the stories like you can make it through five. else gets so did what happens, though, is we're in such modes of pursuit and over thinking over thinking. We need to learn how to switch back and forth on a regular basis. What I called deliberate, decompression or non sleep depressed, have a practice. Each day of ten to thirty may it's where you're not on your phone and your income
but wordless state you're, just either you many draw you just relaxing or not, watching anything, not taking any sensory information, not meditating, not journaling, just in a state of just trying to blame your mind and just watch how much stronger you come back in terms of your ability to focus in your motivation, that's one. I love the phone and social media has been very good to me and I appreciate many of its features, but why the promises we tended fill our idle time with me we're sensory information it doesn't allow us to go into this deliberate decompression. It doesn't allow us to you, remember I cut myself off but sure is worth a thousand words will a movie is worth a million pictures. Now I can scroll through millions of movies very quickly, and so the dopamine system is just a little bit overwhelmed. I don't think we need to be off our phones. All the time just take some time did is deliberately decompress each day. Any time of day ten you'll focus better, sir you're getting hit without dopamine on on Instagram. So at first you are
but here's how you note the dopamine it. This will give you a window into addiction if you're, if you're, not an attic you'll, be able to sympathize with maybe an empathize with attics. Of various kinds when you first get on social media, you're, excite Maybe you are Joe or somebody has new podcast out right, excited. I can't wait here. That's dopamine your motivated But if you ever find yourself doing a behavior and you kind of don't know why you're doing it like this doesn't feel any good anymore. It's like that. What is that Chris? Well now he's funny story there cause new stuff, but that Chris Rock thing where he's talking about like shagging somebody in your hearts? Just not in it. You think this is funny thing right. I think it was him user? Legality, your hearts not like what! Why am I here? Why am I? What am I doing? I'm not even getting it. pleasure, but here I am like a rat pressing a lever. Well, that's the Dublin system is, depleted, and so what you need some time away from it could be. Ten minutes could be ten days and then it feels good again truth,
relationships true for exercise. You know, I believe, in training hard and training, often, but if you're trying to far too often, you can't breathe intensity, that you need to get the stimulus to adapt and pretty soon you either plutonium are getting worse. Here's a experiment I did with myself. I went in my eyes bath and I had my for I was for whatever reason I would like wanted to see something on social media, uninspiring, Instagram so like I was going to look at. I want to waste some time so I'm going to while I'm sitting in the ice bath. For you know, five minutes, I'm gonna look look at social media, so I I'm on Instagram in mice. Bath and normally you're in your ice bath and you're like how long I've been in here. For you don't really want to look at your watch. You know cause like if I'm going to torture, someone when they're in my ice bath, I'm like you've, been in for thirty seconds. That's thirty! Seven seconds! That's going to tell them every increment of time cause you're not going to let it all blow together
so you know I always hold off on looking at my watch. You know when I'm in there I'm just gonna wait, you know cause it's not gonna, be as long as you thought it was so I'm that mode, I'm looking at Instagram, my hands are in it, but still it's like I'm looking at Instagram and I go, how long has it been? It's probably been. It's probably been at least I'm probably at the three minute mark right now I roll Overlooker, my watch my like five twenty, so I got that wait, that's how people look at their freakin screen and all of a sudden they look up and they've wasted. Twenty eight minutes on their cars. I mean I was in it in cold water. You know, and time went by a little bit quicker. Imagine if you are sitting in an old relaxing chair or whatever you know that stuff's gonna slip by you and and next thing you know- you've been looking at your phone for twenty two minutes or half an hour. You know you can write. Five hundred words were book in half an hour. You know like you can do you can do a lot of things in half an hour that going to benefit you as a human being
its ram, isn't one of them the algorithms gonna, get you that's right. It's gonna get you in and if you on a create content, you build the raw materials. You you find it build on the raw materials for that content away from the place where you distribute that, I was so myself. I love reading scientific papers and books, but Instagram can draw me into. I would say the the gems exist outside of social media and I want to bring those to the podcasts into social media, so the deeper I can read into the library or to these papers. The more that I can bring you I'm glad you brought up time perception because dopamine and serotonin and the states they are associated with so broadly speaking, dopamine in up than adrenaline were sir. in an oxytocin associate with different perceptions of time, here's and ass. We think about this- if you ve ever had a day that was really exciting or I think, to an up that was particularly exciting or difficult and challenging required
a lot of focus, it's amazing how quickly you perceive that day going by. But then, when you look back on it, it feels like so much happened. now think about waiting in the doctors office. It feels like it goes on forever, and yet you look back on it and it feels like nothing happened. dopamine, adrenaline change. Our perception of time we micro Slice time, but at sea like everything, goes by really fast and then we look back like we did this in, and we did that we did nothing for the year when you're a ten year old, and it's you. earth day. So much happened so much dopamine then think about them was boring phase of doing nothing? He looked back. Nothing happened. Why? It's all about how these nor Modulator shift our percent. In time our gaze and our understanding of the outside world and so on. So you can imagine that if you're on Instagram in your scrolling and scrolling and now A whole lot is happening, and yet you going on time all this time went by, but nothing happened
well You'Re- not in a high dopamine state when you're in a high dobermans tat, you will know, because life feels exciting you'll almost feel a readiness in your nervous system, because you know some people even trembled. A little bit, that's the readiness for it because again, these are generic molecules. They didn't have all for social media or for gunfights orphan we're rolling jujitsu or for taking oh exams are studying for them. They evolved either put us in a state of readiness and pursuit or relaxation and so once you understand that we all have both systems in us, but that sir, when people the seesaw is just naturally tilted a little bit toward one side or the other other excuse me then you are in a position of really control it as opposed to it controlling you and there's a term that I like to use when thinking but, as we all think about stress, but really there two kinds of stress: there's the two activated, I'm to alert, and I need to calm Down-
and then there's the I'm too calm and Anita Lean and action, and I refer to this as Limburg friction. Limerick System controls, these very basic states of being alert or being stressed or being com, but your forebrain, this incredible real estate, just on your forehead is what trolls what we call top down modulation, it's the look at the watch for forty five jocose already up like uneasiness, but wait hold on if I get inaction. Adrenaline would come thoughts actually allow us to overcome our Limburg tendency to want to go back to sleep or from very very stressed. I can quickly calm down. I could just pass along. There is actually a physiological tool to calm down, as wasn't discovered by me was discovered in the nineteen thirties. There's a pattern of breathing that every person and every mammal does when carbon dioxide builds up too much in the bloodstream and it's called. Physiological side is to inhales through your nose,
and then along for x it looks crazy, but believe it or not. We all do this once every five minutes or so this part gas is like the documentation of release that because I ice will be ready. Something just super stressful or even talking to someone that you know in a terrible situation. You can go goes in this progress. Did you hear like just silencing you hear me, go when he is so obvious that I do that to release the Stress that I have from listen. Someone or or dragging some horrible story out of someone, exhales cups, slow, the heart down in Helsinki. The harder There's something called respiratory scientists arrhythmia. So for when you inhale base who happens? Is your diaphragm moves down right, ass? She moved others actually more space in your cat, the cabin that your heart sits in blood flows.
we're slowly through that larger volume heart got a little bigger at the brain sends a signal speed the heart up when you exhale the diaphragm moves up. Her gets a little smaller blood moves more quickly through that, smaller space brain sends a signal to slow the heart down. If you increase the duration or the intensity of exhales relative inhales, you'll, calm down increase. The intense near the duration of emails relative to ails. You will become more alert through these brain stem centres that we're not discovered by me, but by this brilliant guy? You see Olejniczak Jack Feldman, who found the two brain areas are responsible for this physiology legal size ray, open all the small Saxon along, so that you can then offload the maximum amount of carbon dioxide when you exhale. So they big, deepen health through the nose and then squeeze in a little bit more air reinflame. The acts in the lungs and allows you to offload carbon dioxide on the long exhaled. It follows you do this in sleep. People of Albania. Don't do this well. Acne is very dangerous. It ass. She will shorten your life. We did all sorts of issues, not good People used to see pop or they'll, learn to me.
Both breather dual these kinds of things. You can also use physiological size between rounds, jujitsu, calm down. If you want to come, down or you can do more inhales. If you want to ramp up, I mean fighters know this stuff intuitively and they know how to use breath. But, None of these are hacks. These are defined circuits that we are into the world within the reason I say there not hacks as they worked the first time in they work every time, because guess what you're using them all the time anyway, we're just not normally aware- and so you in when you're speaking a lot. Oftentimes you'll feel stress because you're not taking a few moments to do these double inhales and an exile says I'm doing now but if you having trouble sleeping, do some long, exhale, breathing you'll notice. You calm down so I call these real time tools because they don't involves stepping away from what you're doing the other cool thing. But the physiological size that the nerve that controls the diaphragm is called the frantic nerve and it has a low branch. We call this a collateral that goes to the liver and a few
organs. If you ever running any get that side stitches, you think it's a cramp. That is not a cramp that has to do with your pattern of breathing in the movement of the diaphragm and the frantic nerves sometimes gets into a pattern of firing. That's not quite often when you're getting what's called referred, pain, the liver and the pain inside the body is not as precise as it is on the surface of the body. What do you do? Well, we were used to be I run with your hands over your head. We'd need more water. You have to do as a few physiological size and you reset the pattern of breathing to the correct, ocean. So the next time you have aside stitch or a cramp just do a few Dublin he'll exhales while running and that referred pain would disappear so you mentioned the the dick system, so I'm sitting here the you're paying this picture when you're talkin about serotonin your testosterone and dopamine. You you get, this picture had like wow every human being should just be running at this optimum thing
Well, hey! I'm going to go, get some testosterone award reward for my dopamine and then, when I'm done with that, I'm going to go hug. My kids- and it seems like we should be in this perfect cycle of where everything is great, because we there in pursuit of work or in gratitude- and this is great, Fortunately we all know that that's not the reality and people end up in this weird thing where they they don't go in in pursuit. fact day they don't go pursued at all. They don't even get off the couch. We have people that don't appreciate what they ve got, and so so. Is that the limit? What is the opposing forced to these two totally part? its things that we ve got out there of a I've, got this dopamine reward system? When I go out, I'm going to do some squats, I'm going to feel great. When I get done, I'm going to see my dog I'm going to pet him, I'm gonna feel great, like life is great. What what is the opposing force on these things. That trips us up very important question
fortunately, or unfortunately, we have an answer, which is that we can now access. dopamine release without any effort at all high flavoured high calorie density food right, it's probably rare in nature. At one point, we have to work hard in order to get aim, get grains get berries, so he was a used to be effort. Dopamine relaxation repeat now. You can get enough dopamine from food Remo Iraq just sitting there doesn't it won't crossed the cage because as no dopamine, but most people are like the rat just sitting there just popping just on the couch. I saw this on the plane and I am not being disparaging of anybody when I sat down next one person and it was- and I was I was not shocked. I was actually just really dismayed. This person was saying they're kind of it who did eyes. I don't think they had been drinking alcohol than smell like it.
just popping cheaters into their mouth, like a rat just feeding from dispenser. Since the whole time just passively right? So you gave this low level of doping in lots of calories, lots of with no activity, yes, their feet. the type is retained. Biology was, as you would predict, and it was just we sat there was no. There was, I think when it is fair to say that dope high levels of dopamine achieved without effort will destroy a person whether or not that comes through a high potency drug or a high potency food. If it comes within an intensity and frequency, that's too hot, it doesn't require effort, it will destroy a person. So what else is there there's food, get a dopamine hit from Tito's anything pleasurable tv extremely pleasure was yes, I would say the tv work here I would say unclear and borrowing from on alleged keys works is again a medical doctor who focuses on dopamine an addiction but also behaviors that relate to different video game addiction.
Constance social media or Youtube addiction. I can give you have one very sailing example there. when we're getting. You know, let's say the job I mean it's. Doesn't work actually work this way, but, let's just say, with arbitrary units can be released at anywhere from zero to a hundred level. Let's say methamphetamine is a hundred because we know it does evoke allotted openly release, let's say an ice pizza after a good long raw is a twenty one about almost peace. After watching a Netflix show yeah I'm saying is: that is it! Is that also to be a twenty years that only a ten cause. You didn't really earned it will it can be very pleasurable, but what's gonna happen is that yours still getting dopamine and its incremental right. Remember us than earlier. Stacking dopamine is dangerous. It's not that you have one reservoir, one kind of hydraulic system putting pressure for dopamine, and then you you spend it all comes back. You have multiple so, if you listen to music and you're eating and you're having a good time, that's great minutes
what, if I mean we want to encourage people not be total stoics and they want to enjoy life, but what's gonna end up happy if you're just sitting there eating high calorie food taking in a lot of sensory information. That has you really wrapped with attention, there is really no incentive to be motivated to do anything else at a biological level. So then someone, in fact I was talking to my podcast producer. He had a friend in college that was a spectacular soon early on and not really in a video games and there came the day to move out of their house, and everyone was packed, up and moving out in this guide, you didn't have his stuff together and the trucks were literally companies like an they realized. He actually can do anything he's only seems to be getting his dopamine from this one behavior. I I have a close friend who son graduate from high school going to community college and pretty soon developed. What he thought was a case of pretty severe adhd and depression. Obviously, that can
up and young I've known him he's always been a swimmer in an athlete very impressive kid looking kid always re, sociable and pretty soon he wasn't going to college classes. He wasn't working no relationship living at home with the parents is what they call failure to launch. Really scary at twenty much scarier twenty five. He heard on a limb talk to on an different podcast, about the dopamine system and he realised that he spending all his time on Youtube Video games. He got a little bit into crypto and was gonna dabbling there. Nothing and he went on a complete fast of all these things, and pleased to say that he complete now his now lives with his girlfriend. He's got a job he's completely off any ADHD methods, and I realized people do need these ADHD met, guess what ADHD meds are Ritalin, after all, why that's? They all trigger the release of doping It's a way of getting Doberman and some people really need that. But you can imagine if you're getting it from all these sensory stimuli.
Youtube, etc and Watson. I love you too appreciate them, but you it's a potent stimulus. You can find pretty much anything on there and so the key you asked. Why are we so off balance? Why can't we just do this, naturally, is because, naturally we just want pleasure. We Billy dude as a species just seek pleasure and avoid paying all species do that. now it takes a very deliberate Forbes in oriented person who really actually associate there should value in their self image with effort and reward not just reward to get through this jungle of out plants, basic just grab us and pull us down, and we see it everywhere and it should not surprise us at all, and so was is the key to completely discard with any pleasures. No, the key is put effort in front of pleasure and you will, havoc and learn how to relax and access these other systems of serotonin, etc and appreciate.
And if you can do that, you can completely control the trajectory of your life. But pleasure without effort preceding it is? absolutely deadly its. you clued me in on this one- echo variable rewards so like even when you're, looking at Youtube right and you click on a video in it looks good gotta, good, thumbnail. right is gonna big eyes. They told us to thumbnails with crazy eyes actually get more clicks out there. You go see Lord and on that, but is not quite as good as you want so then, but you see another one, and so you click on that one and is not quite as group, but click on one. It's pretty good. You know I had a good freakin car crash unit or whatever it is. You want to see and so then you get that variable a reward in Instagram you get it in you, tube and and and where it's like. You get a spy,
like all there. It is that that was a really good meme or whatever that one made me laugh. You know you have to look seven means that are dumb. You see a good one and then you go well. Maybe the next will be good too, and you want that little hit, it's freakin to start as a tooth anticipation rate or something like that. Yes, yes, there are thirteen me up with the exact language, so The best schedule for maintaining motivation over time is called random intermittent reinforcement. This is what the slot machines do this is gambling. The reason people go to Vegas got I like to do a little bit gambling I like to sit there the dumb gambling I like roulette- I suggested there the we'll go. I don't want him. think too hard or look The cards or anything just put things on numbers and eventually get something and go yeah. Sometimes I win. Sometimes I lose, but it's always a set amount. Why do I like this? well it's boring, boring and then boom you hit. You hit you get eighteen one on something
That's random intermittent reinforcement is the most powerful reinforcement schedule in all species, for all things some people, even all species, all things all speak random all mammalian species intermittent reward. Yeah give a rat a reward for pressing a lever every time it actually will press that lever less often you'll get its dopamine fix right. It's the person next to me, eating Cheetos on the plane. They'll keep doing it, but not with this. They won't work to do it, whereas if you give it to them every fifth time- animals and people learn intuitively they're, not necessarily even counting. They just know how fast they need to press before they get again. Random intermittent reinforcement means, if you're not expecting a reward Did you get more dopamine, so you said anticipation, so there's something in the dopamine literature that is called reward. Prediction error if you anticipate a reward- and it comes, you get some dope me if you don't into,
pay to reward, and it comes you get even more dopamine from the same reward and if you anticipate a reward- and it doesn't come guess what dopamine drops hello, baseline, hey, kids, we're gonna go, get ice, drink yeah! You get to the ice shock closed, not good. You crash them below now your negotiating trips to Disneyland right, if you, are walking by an ice cream shop. He turned the music I screamed. Bigger opening to release from the actual ice cream. This a very powerful modulator of our behavior so in dissipation is key because remember dopamine isn't about the pleasure, dopamine is about the anticipation of pleasure and this they're beautiful experiments. If we want to learn more about this just but reward prediction, air, the guy will from Schulz, yes, was the guy who it over in Germany who discovered reward prediction dictionary found that than the neurons in in the control Doberman release are firing
before you get the reward, then you'd get the reward and it goes up a little bit. Then it drops and that drop is the pain that you feel afterwards why to keep animals and humans motivated to go, pursue more and a lot of our behaviour can be understood through reward prediction- air this also pertains again. Human relationships. dont tell somebody at a restaurant is so incredible or a blanket. So incredible, don't build yourself up to be so incredible. If you wanted, actually be experienced as that incredible, anticipation is wonderful, but then you better bring it back, if you don't you we're going to sink dopamine way lower than you would have otherwise. So surprise is one of the wonderful elements the dopamine circuitry and, if you think, about an animal forging for food or human forging for food. This is what led to people. You know looking for game to kill we're a hunter right
if you're a hunter as well. I've done a hunting, but I've done some fishing and don't like all this visual, it's Yvonne's pretty good, pretty good pretty. So what do you hunt for it? Just kidding it's a real stretch to call me one drive, I got into hunting a few years ago and have been going hunting each year very, very cool. Very very rewarding, very difficult. Very very rewarding it's- you know that's a very dynamic system, as our gut fights and whatnot, it's not just about hitting target on a arrange, obviously the other person or the animal gets a vote to and so that's that we we crave that as human beings and combat taps into that end, basic mating interactions and the things that led up to that. You know that the dance is human evolution of of meeting, and aggression and all these other things you know all tap into the dopamine system. We experience winds and then we tried make predictions about where we will experience when
again, based on our previous history and yet what keeps us it will be so boring if you always knew the dear was, can be standing right next to that tree. Looking at you write what please I like campaigns as videos. I eyewash, as I love the unpredictability of I am also always amazed at how many objects are in front of him and obviously a very skilled hunter. So it's the uncertainty that that Certainly one special operations yields its defined by uncertainty. The rule was, are set, and yet there's this huge set of variables for which you need to be able to adapt in real time, that's going to lead to more dopamine increase than anything else. Yeah. It's it's interesting cause The the hunting thing like. How does it compared to combat of her guys asked me that, and that there is a really big difference? Is that that you that things not gonna shoot back at you, but if you go and haunt like agree we bear with a bow and arrow. and you mess up that thing.
Absolutely will kill you so that Let's go for a dusky, it very close to the citizen. the kind of oz scenario that you're dealing with and I'm sure the dopamine hit, and I haven't punted any bear yet, but that's gonna be next level Absolutely I mean I remember, backpacking, glacier and running into a bare cub pop eaten berries, In the trail we took the bear Bell off and it was bear bills and really annoying the whole time we walked with these bear bells. I'm going to take these Elsa ignore the rich and we're. I can out and sure enough to bear Cobb sitting there, your first, you bear CUB and they go back up so absolutely theirs these systems again are or Orient did toward our survival are. Reproduction are drive when we The people that are very driven typically is because they have systems like yourself. And like yourself, I'm in these systems. All
most always are designed to overcome what I referred to earlier in Limerick. Friction its rarely that someone has to the system of making everything easy that allows them to be continually, motivated, I think, is one of the big misconceptions people think oh and we ve done episodes of the human allow parties like workspace optimization, I always sort of hesitate to do these episodes because it's true you put your computer screen up, It was looking down at you'll, be alert for longer cause of what we're time before I positioning you have a standing desk. You probably alert to standing actually in and so on and so forth, but we find is that people that display, motivation over long periods of time have systems that put them into Limburg friction and then overcome limerick, friction again and again. Remember effort then reward. And many people are looking for, the tools, the hacks and the tricks that are going to take all the effort. Part out. Will you do
What you want to do is build the effort and the limit friction in and then the reward in on a consistent basis. reach me again on the Olympic Friction yet so where's that coming from yeah so saw, have areas of the brain in the old his police to call them ancient, and then now people don't like that. But this equally there are parts of the brain that exist in humans and in other animals like the hypothalamus, which is a cluster of neurons, basic above the roof. Your mouth little tiny real estate within the nervous system, but controls things like motivation, aggression, rage, sex behaviour, temperature clusters of new of what we call nuclear low clusters of neurons, the control all these different, primitive states. so much so that if I were to just tickle one of- was with an electrode. I could put you into a rage state like that. There's, a wonderful video of people want to see it. It's a little disturbing for people that can't handle this stuff from David Anderson's lab at Caltech. You put it. You can put Anderson lab aggression mating into Youtube to mice.
Electrode in an area of the brain called venture me, your hypothalamus. stimulate one category of neurons in their using some neuroscience tricks. And the animal immediately goes over inserts a mate with the female animal. Turn those neurons off their ways. You can do this instantaneously, remotely turn on the neurons in the ventral, medial, hypothalamus that are distinct from those and the animal starts to kill the other. Put that animal alone in a cage with a glove filled with air stew. Delete these neurons, it tries to kill the glove, looks like a kid at a loss. front geologists when his arm, like that, you know just rage, although that's a controlled, rich, so we have which is in the hypothalamus. Then we this real estate, that we call the prefrontal cortex, which is controls, rational decision making, has access to the hippocampus with information about the past the present and the
which you're right when we're in the states of rage. It's all about now states of stress it's all about now, states of fear. It's all about now the proof So cortex can drawn a memory back of experiences from the past, the present and future for better or for worse and say the last time we tried to cross this bridge with our team. Things didn't work out so well, let's stop. Let's think were were under attack. Immediately want to respond. When are you guys got swift, violent? action, but sometimes I'm guessing, there's a timely regroup? Swift, while an action in a more successful way, come just borrowing language from your community. That ability temp down basic physiological responses- is controlled by the forebrain suppressing the limit pathways, so there's a friction between our rational mine and these impulses. There's a famous case of the guy
that was working on the railways. Every psychology student learns about there's a spiteful by through his forebrain went through orbital frontal cortex is prefrontal cortex. What happened well, that the story goes that he became sort of inappropriate. So if you don't like you, I tell you I, like you, I swear it You went to church before as a real good guy. After that he was, you know screaming at people and caught profanity and things like that There is a condition Cox reducing syndrome, which relates to a different brain area. But also the forebrain, where animals were people will start to me, with inanimate objects right. This is inappropriate behavior according to the limbic system, but they don't see as inappropriate cause they they're, forebrain or shut down. So limbic friction describes the the the tension in this neural circuitry between the forebrain and the. Reflexes and remember. It has two sides: one is the ability to suppress action and the other is the ability to engage action when you would otherwise want to be relaxed, and because that's because some of the areas, the hype
Thomas are involved in relaxation, so you want to stay in bed because it you know. For me, I hope for many people there is a strong pool stay under the covers, and sleep longer tell yourself that unity heard on apart gas, asleep important all this stuff dive, dementia, you don't sleep enough and yet to tell yourself no, no, it's the effort followed by the reward that all feel later. That's the ticket so that's an example of limerick- friction that you overcome where the forebrain takes over now you're inaction urine forwards. Interim ass, were your exam, so that's overcoming exhaustion or so the so the system can screw you in both ways It could screw me and like let I lose my temper and then attack you and I M going to jail. Could because I stabbed you in the neck cause I lost. My temper it can also screw me by hey. You know you really don't feel like and work out. Right now is to stay in bed, because it's nice and comfortable here
so you're living system, yeah yeah. Well, they then you can rationalize that Europe and yet there, but but that's a Limburg system driving me to just wanna stay in bed or wanna. Hey! No, this freak in cotton candy, tat great, and just eat more of it and just keep shoved into my mouth. That is limping system in action. It's right and a lot of treatments for phobias and anxiety disorders that are related to cognitive behavioral therapy are progressive exposure, so a person afraid of snakes. You can picture of a snake, then you have them. Imagine snake, then they're. Looking at rubber snake, then they're holding a snake. What are you doing, you're, allowing them to get into small incremental steps forward action. They get them closer and closer, but you're too the anxiety but you're also ratcheting down the anxiety. What I'm talking about, and I think what the practices that you ve talked a lot about really relate to is recognising that friction of being tired, but knowing that you should get into action or that feeling of being too empty up and knowing you need to calm down means going
against yourself in a way that is not incremental, sometimes can feel huge. This is why I think if anyone is going to try an ice bath, don't freeze to death, but you know start at forty five degrees and move your limbs around and experience what a lot of adrenaline is really like, and you know, if you do it appropriately, you won't die. You will come out of there if you get that dopamine rush and the thing to think about is not how great it feels you want to think about how hard it is and then how great Those two things need to be coupled in one's mine and The power of mindset is something that has been talked about all the time, the secret or on you know, in social media, but I have a colleague at Stanford seems like. I only refer to experiments at Stanford, but hey it's a good place If there is an analog to the seal teens macadamia. Can we bar that sorry there? they're good places to their some schools on the EAST coast. I here as well. the just kidding, but I do back for the home team, but they did their there.
Sperm and elsewhere, of course, but my colleague Alley Chrome Her name is a Leah, but she was my alley. Chromosome professor psychology tenure professor psychology, former division, one athlete train clinical psychologists and actually her dad as a Marshall artists and has done some work with your community in credit, and she has a few papers on seals and I'll. Explain with those are she studies, mindsets and the power of mindset and she studies the physiology. Some none of this stuff is wishy washy, and here the interesting thing Take two groups of people she's taken two groups of people. One group watches a movie about stress. The other group watches a movie about stress. first group watches a movie about stress and learns all The true information about stress tests, rupture memory. It causes deficiency he's in decision making and blob. all the terrible things that stress can do the other group learns. All the positive things stress can do. Can activate your immune system? Can shop
when your focus can enhance your memory if it's done in the appropriate way, etc, you test people with a number of things. Like memory tests, you test their immune system, you do blood draws, you look how much stress hormone they're making guess what whatever you learned and believe, that's what happens they. Ve done the same experiment with two milkshakes. Ok, if one group a milkshake, you tell them. This is a high calorie high fat high sugar milkshake, there's lots of nutrients in it. You give the other group a milkshake. You say this is a modest, a low calorie milkshake. Then you have them drop drink. The milkshake you take blood draws and you look at the insulin response. You look at the amount of Grellman, which is a hundred hunger, but hormones secreted in response to hunger, makes you hungry basically and guess what it's the same milkshake. And yet you get higher insulin response to the high The thought that it's a high calorie shake you get lower insulin. All you still get insolent response in response to the idea that it's a lower colors
the gorilla response is suppressed, so you get it. You are hunger doesn't short for longer. If you have the so called high calorie shake states, hunger, whereas if you have the low calorie shakier hungry again earlier and growing levels go back, it's really all based on And there are numerous things like this, and so alleys words are the best words for this and I'm probably not going to get them exactly right, but what we do? and the physiological consequences of what we do is the consequence of what we do, what we eat, how we exercise, but also what we believe About what we do now, this does not mean that you can just like yourself. You can't say all this. You know you note for me, four from in and out is only a hamburger and its not to have a big insolent that doesn't work, but You can either proteins protein. It's pretty safe. Where there's the flying Dutchman, I've heard you know that one I haven't had the void. I think that's just meat on on a piece of paper
Okay, so now all those carnivores are gonna, be you know going through. That's where I'd give Costello my bulldog, and I think they still use that the odd off the menu menu. So basically, if you tell yourself the friction that I'm feeling of I want you to get out of bed and the reward I will feel later actually is legal system within me, and that is true statement. we build that system within you if you will leave. This is just overcoming pain so that I can drop those power so that I do not feel terrible about myself. Well, you won't build that system. And this is the beauty and the mystery of the brain, which is that the forebrain can draw on all these contextual things you can really give meaning to what would otherwise just be basic Limburg experiences. Now there aren't in the infinite range of ways to do this. I can cut myself to this little. You know butter knife here and say has just given, because I can't cut my with his dagger, that my fingers barely Phil by
sounds like something that I can put it through my hand until myself. I didn't do that right. There are limits to this. The laws of physics still apply the laws of physiology if you still apply, but as we learn from example, the milkshakes or the example that stress positive or negative learning about stress there is a range of physiology is that we can experience. According to something. I think this has important implications due for things like PTSD interpreting the experiences of asked just telling one salvo wasn't that big a deal wont work The telling oneself that there's no way to come back from that also is not true. There's a couple of things that I've been talk about for one of those who want to start with. As this idea, I've been told people for while hey listen, you got tendencies which we all have different tendencies. You might have a tendency, let's say from a leadership perspective that you're micromanaging and you ve gotta- be aware that tendency, because if you
Don't if you're, not aware of it and you dont trained counter you're gonna always end up micromanaging. Maybe you have a a tendency to be hype, aggressive and you're too aggressive and you go and make you try to run to the sound of the guns without really taken a step back. So you have to understand what you're pendency are M you ve, gotta say my tent He also might be right. So now I'm thinking about this from and, I also say, hey list. As a leader, you gonna watch the crowd you gonna pay attention to make sure that the crowd is going in the right direction when the crowd starts to get fired, what up about something yeah. We need to go assault that building we d go so that building use say to yourself- you should think yourself, the contrary Ok, what wait a second that the right thing to do right now cause it's really easy to get caught up in the crowd It's now I'm noticing a similar thing with our limerick system like there's a chance it you're olympic system is correct of sea, but you
need to be aware of the tendency of your Limburg system and make sure that what that Freakin a tiny part of your aunt brain is thinking, you need to put it in and sometimes you go up- did the right thing to do right now I should get aggressive. I should go on the attack but you need to run it through that check. First, the other thing is when you talk about milkshakes and what what your attitude is happiness is just. This is just so clear when you from a leadership perspective if we get old, hey we gotta, go free, can do this this mission and It's gonna be a real you're a real tough mission, it's gonna be a weathers horrible at that's how you bring it to the boys, hey guys we got to ask what his mission is going to be freaking horrible, the weather's going to be bad, we're gonna, be freezing if that's you bring to voice that that's gonna, be the attitude all day long you come down and say: hey, listen, check this out. There's a mission common. Now it looks actively to trigger a very tough situation. They know
were the only ones who comprise build. Get this done. Working have him but you to go out there and get this get. This miss and done it's gonna be hard, but it can have. big impact attitudes. One hundred and eighty outright. So we I have so much control just by what we're thinking and then if you're in a leadership position the way you present things? The it's It's gonna sway the way people think now also tell you this is. Get told to do something horrible and you truly leave its terrible and you go down to hey guys. This could be if you basically lie to them There can all know that your life, like you, can't fool you it's very difficult to fool a group of people into Patino, as it is thinking or who what's the secret, was eager, but great, that's words like as our common, its very hard, a full someone into that? But if you believe hey, that's what we're doing this a huge opportunities can be a tough mission, but it can be worthwhile. If that's what you believe
people are gonna get on board with that- and you really are gonna- have a totally different attitude going into it. As far as the the pity, as thank you? No one, I don't know when I heard this, but this packed my whole my whole faults on war. Was, I want to say it might have been Bob Door. You know, but The was a world war, two guys womb did you know he never had. I think we're one of us hands didn't work very well, but I amber hearing him say and I'm pretty sure was him. Please don't I'm sorry if I'm, if I'm getting some getting this wrong, but he said simply put he said war made me better end.
It is the one eighty out of what a lot of guys get told right now, war is going to make you crazy. It's going to make you depressed it's going to make you an adrenaline junkie, who won't be any way to satisfy and guys here that you're going to have a hard time adjusting and we're going to have to try and assimilate you back into society, because it's going to be so hard because of what you see, whereas Bob Dole or whoever this veteran was the war's going to make me better and I always used out myself, abuse that when Bob said to me: why do you feel it hard for you when you look back and you ve seen you ve lost friends is not all that stuff book. It was horrible, but My perspective is better. I appreciate life more because I know Life can be lost very easily. I presume freedom more cause. I know the price it was paid for that. Didn't me worse actually mean we better. So I think we have to be careful of that kind of thing. A new you can also go down the whole road of like a social contagion where you ve got people reinforcing, B.
Paviers or reinforcing mindsets, and it starts to spread, were now everybody's thinking. Well, you know You went to war, you must. Be messed up and then I think all fundamental. I guess I must be stop because that's what that's? What we're doing- and this goes across the bored with you know you. You mentioned the one guy earlier that was cutting the bottom of his feet, you hear these horrible stories. That's a social contagion where these outbreaks of of girls primarily girls. You know too well After sixteen years old would be, putting themselves and is something that would. Oh, that's We're doing was kind of this. These things would spread, and you know we talk about. warm or other broadcaster, I think it was believed, but Billina right that started a guy wrote an article about it. There had been some small number of cases ever alright. I heard about this for while and then he
She wrote an article about it, and this is I want to see in the seventies, maybe and all of a sudden they have tens of thousands, if not hundreds of thousands of cases, because people said oh, they they get. This idea and look. It is a real thing in the cheapest reporting or you documenting, people this we happen to, but once people got idea was: oh that's what we're doing anything with a lot of a lot of strange things that are spreading right now in in America and worldwide, where you go? Hey, that's that didn't that wasn't a thing not too long ago. right, but wasn't a thing not to Congo, and now it is a couple of reflections, some that pertain specifically the seal teams but What you're referring to is the fact that nervous systems are profoundly impacting each other. So your example of the group is getting really ramp up. We want to fight, let's go swift, violent action now, and your stepping back as the leader and sang wait, you're effectively acting as the forebrain. Never a group that's effectively at
as a lunatic system- that's exactly what I was trying to say so and so nervous systems can be studied, in isolation or in or in groups, is harder to do that in the laboratory. Although there are people there are starting to put to you when do a scanner and having them interact and seeing how the brain areas interact is harder to do for obvious reasons. Alley crumbs group actually did a study which simply asked: do you think stress, harms you or grows you and measured physiology quarters all etc, and there was only one group that, across the Lord answered stress grows you and it was seals. So she's done work on military communities and she's done work on civilians and that's a puppet. Paper. You can find it on our website. You runs our mind body lab at Stanford, really a brilliant person who I think its experience
resign listed off. All her credentials are some of her credentials of of athlete, etc. Is that she really understands the mind body relationship from a first person experience not just to a geek in a lab geek at all. but very, very smart. The other thing is that is this notion of social contagion and- and we are profoundly influenced by sensory experience in one of the most intense sensory experiences of the words and actions of others. Some people are drawn more toward or are shifted more by other people's emotional states. We sometimes hold up. Empathy is this: ideal, but empathy is very dangerous. Because empathy for the wrong in the wrong context. You know your kid freaking. Out about inexperience at school. If you freak out you experienced true empathy, you abandon your own emotional state, we're not that's, not effective parenting or effective leadership, so empathy, is wonderful, only in so far as it allows us to go in under
Stan and then returned to the context and make better decisions, and that's a complicated set of neural operation but again it all has to do with confidence any in a bill. To leave your own emotional state, go in and be comfortable that you can get back, right so empathy is, is a razor, is a double sided blade really in thing, you know I'll I'll have the the de of empathy raised with me a lot through. Leadership in oh, isn't important to be empathetic and I've always made a distinction between well. What I really want to do is Would it be better at understanding what year perspective is so I want a truly understand what you're perspective is, but I don't really want to we feel what you're feeling, because now I have my I might have messed up what I'm trying to what what my perspective is and by the way I want to get as many different perspective,
as I can so. I can fully see the problem and understand it from the maximum number of angles, and I can most easily find a solution, whereas if, dive into just looking feeling the way you're feeling that's not good. so they get put drown in Europe. Both drown, it's the jumping into the river to save somebody can both trout, this notion of perspective, because inability to see through the lens of other people's extremely important, obviously, but- the ability to return to one's own internal state is obviously that the one of the hallmarks of great leadership, as you know, the the idea of groups and how to how bad things spread between groups that there's is, this all explain a lot of what we see on social media in the press. There is a set of contracts sure, but nonetheless important experiments done in the nineteen sixty by Ganem Robert Heath. Does that time, when you can sign up for an experiment, have electrodes put in your head and you could, for
for a nominal amount of money, you could stimulate the electrodes located at different locations and tell Doctor Robert Heath what you're experiencing this is three papers, some of which were published in the journal. Science, which is one, of our kind of Superbowl. We have the Superbowl NBA championship and you know Stanley. cup of science and they are nature science, science and sell. Those are the three top. Colonel science is a very good journal. He publishes paper basically subjects were allowed to stimulate a variety of different areas, the brain Rome brain in their own brain, okay, stimulate one area and the person that he'd say. What do you expect? You feel need say gluten Frank stimuli, another area. What do you feel kind of giddy? What do you feel a little bit of anger, etc, and then he would just tell people you can stimulate enter or that you want, but you have only ten minutes to do it, so they play around on the keyboards to meet. You again can do this experiment now, but really cool experiment the area that all the subjects chose to stimulate the most far more More scares me than other areas is an error.
Of the midline shallowness for what it for what it's worth and the subjective experience that they all reported mild frustration and anger, is going on here. Why would human beings want to feel frustration and anger? What turns out This medial, thalamus area is linked up with the dopamine system. We, may not like Limerick, friction of the sort like overcoming fatigue, to go, exercise or stress and needing to calm down. But human being seen to love the feeling of being pissed off just a little bit. And I mention this not because I like this result. I I hate this result, but I guess I just speaks to the result itself, which is that there's something about it, which feels motivating anger feels good. At a low level, because,
puts us into a state of activation and we like states of activation and relaxation and guess what it puts us in a state of activation without us having to do anything we're right back where we were before dopamine head. without any effort being angry is Adobe mean without having to do anything, and people will sit there all day and I can Thus there are times you know. No endeavours put a negative comment on our common, my instagram skin, Then you ve got. Why do we orient to those? Well, we could say: oh it hurts actually frankly, unless it too, you know something. I really need a bit and you I don't. Why should we care right because typically are of a of a nature that is not really meaningful. That doesn't come from a place of understanding or you know. I don't like misunderstandings. I do read comments but you want people to understand things, but when people are just mean spirited find ourselves oriented towards those because being means little angry turns out to be a dopamine hit and I am and have become very conscious of this, because I think
social media is a place where we can all get drawn down these paths where you can spend all day in a battle in your head that doesn't mean anything or worse, you can respond to things in a way that can sink your whole career seated mean the chair of the cycle. True department at Columbia, University was fired for a tweet. That was just a very insensitive tweet. It wasn't in anger, based we but that's just tells me was the tweet there a picture of a model, and he made a very insensitive remark about her genetic lineage? I just stoning one of her heart. I don't want to restate it because it is no longer with us just recently. People can google it. I don't know, I don't know what went through his mind, but here's what I know scarce a psychiatrist It is one of the leading psych address in the world and he couldn't think two steps ahead for whatever reason Are you it's interesting? We were given a hard time to two instagram a bunch today, but now you stop
talking about now, it's our talk talk about twitter cause. It is crazy. It is crazy that there's people that are You can see it when you read through what the writing they are feeling legitimate anger like, unlike you like. Alright don't like ads cut forty. When are you don't even people person feels powerless. I can see it, I see their common and I go cash. They must really feel powerless in this world and I feel sad for them, but they are hissed, so their kids we'll dopamine hit by creating just friction and mayhem, and I think a lot of people show up. I hate demonize twitter, but I have to say in stadiums outbreak. I place on average. I think there is a certain category, people that show up to twitter to experience that form of dopamine. They are there were to fight for our right to meet you in the parking lot, they're not going to go to toe a data. Point
they'd rather go through in kind of fine little misunderstandings and then hijack misunderstanding to try to elevate their status within the so called fight and, if think about the range of meaningless circular career and life, diminishing behaviors. This would be at the near. The top of the list This is like the poor guy in the parking lot whose you know. Organizing leaves in the in the corner and you go he's lost his mind. You know it's really sad, except these are people who arguably still have a mind to return. So this is our Europe we are doing so. You know, and I saw those Robert Keith result. I cash people like to be angry. People don't want to be pissed off and yet that low level. Anger and frustration has direct links to the reward path, way, and I think we would all be wise to No one word drifting towards that, because we are all kit. If listen This circuitry exists in us, we're all capable of it. I built the De Carl Young statement, even though not a psychologist, we have all things inside of us will,
It's also why in here, painting myself very guilty because it think about like listening to hard core music. This is This is music that is fuelled by anger and fuels anger, and it feels good like the first time I ever heard like RO, mags I'll. like oh I. This is what I want to listen to now like this. Is it you know the first time you hear agnostic Front Europe? Ok, this is what I want to to now cause you get TAT little you get that hit so that back me hook line and thinker man, but you channeled it into something. So that's that's anger and dopamine without effort. But then you took that and you applied it to something you listen to it. While you train you orient towards a mindset in I The examples are very nuanced and and protect large ourselves, so they're not even worth sharing, but there there
songs and things in my head that I hear that. Allow me to shop a better person- and I am actually not the first to discuss- is the great neurologist rob. Oliver sacks wrote about this. If you read the book awakenings and he wrote the men who mistook his wife had looked at clinical abnormalities and taught people about how the brain works and based on how it breaks in these beautiful books, but he was also held the California state record for backwater cheer, I respect about these books- you talking about whatever the psychological things, you're saying but reckoning backs, This is a guy was serious about his physical turning. He talked about this. He talked about anchoring, two emotional states through for him in the classical music and being able to access creative works of writing being. able to listen to angry, he talked even about things that evoke anger and then being able to take that anger and bring that to his ability to.
Work very long hours in the clinic to help people that were unworthy of hospitals that no one would dare go down, let alone go in there and help these but these are just imagine the worse place to ever be placed as Parkinson's, patient or and Alzheimer's. These are tortured. Chambers that he would go into and he would take people out of the hospital, he did incredible humanitarian work. So we talked about channeling these, these reflexive tendencies towards good. And towards building a career in life, and so I think listening the crow mags. If you, if you can put, you obviously put that into something use, we're just sitting there in your room and just listen to over and over endlessly and not leaving and being angry at the world or looking at what the Columbine kids did just pissed off at everybody and then going and just hosing a cafeteria with bullets. Well, obviously it, can go either way, and so I think that learning to harness these more primitive states is very useful. We can't eliminate these states, we can't pretend they don't exist, but you can follow them into real, not just benevolent
but really human species growing actions, and I think it's this is like a another to bring up this word awareness again. We got some awareness now. the dopamine and what that crash you're gonna feel like and now, we can start to put that into the calculus of how how're behaving and now we're talking about the Limburg system and understanding and being aware of what the limp system is trying to do and that it may or may not be leading in the right direction, but you need to use your your her own brain to to put that thing check and either go with it or say no, not right now. So these things become aware of these things very born and and what you said, this Kind of thing has only been around, for a limited amount of time most dear, most of human history they just been has been This has been happening yeah. What, the effort to get the dopamine reward has been there? The there
was a time in which violent battle was adaptive and there are still times were violent battles adapted and then their times when it'll completely sync your life right, I mean, I think, We are in a very important time right now, where we and trigger activation of all these neural circuitry is sitting at home. We don't even have to get out of bed, but we see, I think, the explosion of mental illness, the explosion of anxiety and depression in a d h d is absolutely the consequence of ready availability of pleasures without effort lack of understanding about how our own basic physiology works, I have great respect for the fields of psychology, great respect, but thinking about your thinking is useful, but knowing that you can put a wedge in between your thinking and your physiology is also useful. Not better
but also useful, and so for instance, for somebody who suffers from anxiety practice physiological size, long exhales, if you're somebody who feel a motivated think about how much pleasure, year or or sensory stuff in food and stuff you're consuming without effort first start too. grace. This idea that effort, followed by reward repeat effort, reward repeat, is No, it's not just something that I'm saying it's been the signature pattern of life progression and individuals. It in the signature pattern of the evolution of our species. was true a thousand years ago- that's true today and is likely going to be true a thousand years. Now I mean I love the idea that companies like Neural Lincoln's, going to develop development devices. You just trigger your motivation, circuitry, but guess what Doberman as a non infinite, but noble resource of you just dump all your dopamine, because you stimulate with an electrode you're. U can we know this from Ex. Payments in a lab. You keep triggering those brain areas. You're not gonna, be motivated person. Twenty four hours a day,
you're just gonna deplete all your dobermans, so unless they have a plan to also put dopamine, back in the system, there's no Neuro technologies that can overcome the technology of the brain completely. You can augment it but you're not to overcoming. You are going you're gonna, build sideboard, warrior that completely discards with the human element, because breathing that you ve talked about in terms of leadership and self control, all these for rain circuits and I've been describing the Farinas one thing like a brake on the olympic system or an accelerator on the limit system. but it's really like spinning multiple plates. The ability use your for rain. It feels hard feels like at effort, even if you just sitting in a chair, because yet spin a plate over here and then you have to spin a plate or you have to think. Okay, those guys are going to go. There then they're going to arrive at this time. Then I'm gonna arrive at the stump. A lot of people just go out. They like overwhelmed. You have to calm yourself, as you know, and
think ok than that when they arrive in this summit under these plates that spending Gimme a little. These are a thing about the forebrain circuits as working in parallel. You don't have one for bringing maybe five or six forebrain circuits. A simple operation would be lifting up this drink to drink it. A more complicated thing would be trying to think about doing this. Every time echo puts his hand on his chin throughout the whole park ass. Well, we're having a conversation now have to spin multiple plates I've. things going in real time. So trivial example, because it's not important when he does that, but it allows me to demonstrate that, We can contextual anything. We can say every time that shadow moves to the left just a little bit. In order that shadow move, I dunno that shadow that's a lot of vigilance but sure you can occupy your whole forebrain without or you can do that, while paying attention to how many guys are out on the ground or moving behind you your forebrain, it goes under high demand when we sleep, we regain the capacity to do that. Multiple plate, spinning type of action
nation, and will you go into non sleep deep rest when we turn off that effort, we risk we reinstate that effort. I'll just mention one experiment. There is done out of a lab in Scandinavia that had people just lie down and do a yoga, Nidra type non gorgeous. You could go online and do an sdr just to MST are made for it's. A free script can listen to this. Do it for thirty minutes They found that when people do that sort of exercise of just deliberate decompression, not engaging their forebrain doing long exhale The amount of dopamine in a brain structural, the basal ganglia, was replenished. That's very much in the Basle ganglia are involved in directing go actions and no go. one way that people can get better controlling their behaviour in limerick. Friction is I do this actually only embarrassed, but also proud to say twenty times a day. I find myself wanting to do something like pick up. The phone I've been wanting to pick up that little paperclip, this whole podcast cause. I like it for reasons I don't understand and not allowing myself to do it for real. The dark trivial, but what
my doing. I'm engaging the no go pathway. So try and learn to overcome limerick. Friction by forcing yourself to do things that you don't want to do, trying push yourself to not do things that you want to do even trivial things in what you're doing as your building up these little secretaries and the basal gangway depend on doping. Different receptors furred go and no go but doping. Deep relaxation restores your ability do this member non infinite, but renewables for them. or plate spinning the more go no goes you performed throughout the day, the more you deplete, the circuitry thirty minutes of a non sleep depressed or a good night's sleep whatever. That means, for you reinstate those doping. I so it's at the end of the day where more than a bag of chemicals, but this stuff has been baked into us, so check this out, something I've been teaching a decent amount lately in this will be very, trusting to see how this overlays on your spinning plate. So we are having
I been trying to teach people like. I got asked a question. I was up at a at a at an event and at this event, some of my guys at work. me in the seal teams, were there lay fab and interpol and- and these guys happened to tell a couple stories where, like oh, you know, John did this. He made this decision right here. It was great and then you know you're gonna potatoes, this other time document and so that they pay me great light mania. Really cool and It's kinda you, my eagle, is inflating and then during one of the breaks, a couple of the guys that were there, these are business guys they come up. Pino said you know, eat do you have just such great instincts. It's so obvious. You know as a leader that you just have these great instincts in us kind of like yeah. You know it's pretty, I'm a I'm really got really good instincts and they kind inflated. My ego and I felt great about myself and then I went back, we're out the woods and went back to my my little cabin sort of thing. Myself wait a second for, first of all,
if, if the only thing I have is good leadership instincts and I'm just a good natural leader, and that's what I have, what good that to me to be altered talk to anyone about. It was it's just something that I naturally have? No, not enough. That does make any sense, and is it and by the way I know for a fact. I didn't always have these things. So then I started thinking about well. How do I'm actually make decisions when I'm I've got a bunch of chaotic things going on, and I said and I wrote down what my I do my brain when things are happening when things are going on, when there is an enemy contact, when there is a problem out on the battlefield, wonders business problem, what am I doing an wrote down sort of these. These things that I think about, and- and I ended up soon- hey this or what we went back later. That night- and I said hey- you has asked me a question asked me about my instinct. Well, let me tell you not instinct. I am running a loop in my head to check that I am going in the right direction. Number one thing I always think about is time. How
time to have renounced that something's going on, and I have to make a decision to have twenty minutes. make the decision to have three minutes make drive to make a decision right now. I think about the fundamental laws combat that we talk about all the time like hey, Are we going to support each other? If I make this decision if it is going to help us as a team. If I make this decision, oh and by the way, chemical new. Simply. Ok, if I can communicate it simply great, hey where'd, this war on our priority list, What number priorities is a higher priority that we then we what we ve been doing. Do I need to shift priorities? Do I need to tell if we should protest, or does this not fit a top priority? decentralized command can I can? I get someone, can I delegate this problem to someone else? Can I can I give it to them so that I can then look up and out- and I had this so I went through. list of dictate. Is this part of the mission that were actually trying to do can sometimes if you are on a mission and you get distracted by something else and all of a sudden you get focused on that you? You can't allow yourself to do that had this whole list of things of these thoughts- that
we'll go through and the most important thing, as I get Don, telling explain this list of things to people as you can't get caught, on any one of these things. If you get caught on the time factor you'll, never figure out if this is actually part of emission. If you only focused on hey. Is this part of our mission? You might run out of time before we make a decision, so in my mind. When you talk about these spinning plates, I get it and what I realise and when you were when you were talking about looking at a shadow and paying attention to you, do have to pay attention that you have to check on it, but you can forget about everything else is going on so this, interesting dynamic. When I, when I hear these, that my frontal lobe has these spinning plates well I know that I can I don't really pay attention to them all at the same time, so I have to kind of check this one, give it a little spin check this one balance. It check this one about it and if I It focused on one another. One's gonna get dropped. So that's why
I do is I I go through and I look ok. Let me check this. Let me check this. Let me check this and I keep going around in a circle illusions. That cannot happen and in half a second, you can do all these things over and over again, but if you get stuck in one of these things, you're gonna apart, and this goes back to review the loop observe, were you decide knocked at the same thing you you, you have to keep moving, and if you get stuck on trying to decide what to do. If you like. Make a decision. You're gonna fall apart. If you get stuck in action, which some people that all that be good you action know if you are taking action, but your running the feedback and seeing how this action is affecting everything else. It happening around you, you do the action, then you have to go back and observe how its back in this scenario, and in Orient yourself to where you are now and then decide if that was a good acts or not so this idea of spinning places very interesting to me because they're out there
I know that I know that there are times when I have always played spending, and I know that if I get focused on one of those spinning plates the in a drop, some other ones, and then everything's gonna fall apart? It's what you do, examples you provide are really key because, first of all its high demand work, you no one can get comfortable we're. What we're referring to a spinning plates. Some people experience overwhelmed did you two things. You know we so value. This notion of focus and focus is wonderful, but we sometimes forget What the brain does not have one spotlight of focus. The way to think about focus is that we are old world primates and we can do something called covert detention. So I can talk to you pay attention to you, but I can also pay attention to echo. I've got to spotlights I can intensify spotlight. You can search to pay attention to some specific feature of what you're saying or doing and as I do that he starts to this. You're low. But then I can switch right. These the intentional mechanisms of the forebrain. If you want to play that game,
I assure you we put you in a scanner. Your prefrontal cortex will be lighting up like crazy, meaning high levels of metabolic activity there. I can also take those two spotlight and merge them to a single location. I can make them more intense, I can brought in them and I can make them more diffuse. We don't have. Three spotlights we have two, but we don't just have one, and so, if you understood and attention as to spotlights maybe one that right there in one, that's drifting, maybe too that can merge your specific location or, if you need to see when I, when we talk about spinning, multiple place. What we're talking about his talk when back and moving those spotlight and knowing that at one point, you described attention will truly be off some element and which element in it is often what it's on is crucial in in high stakes. High consequences scenarios like you, described its vital to serve I feel so. We can learn how to do this. However,
learning, how to sit down and read a book without any distraction, or I actually like to put my phone right next to me and do a bunch of no goes every time that calls me. I just give it a little. No, have you not no, and I you know your practising the no go pathway in reading a book, the other it's very useful for developing focus- is something that people don't do often enough anymore, including me, which is writing incomplete sentence. The ability to write and think incomplete sentences is hard work. I have a colleague at Stanford Carl dies. Ruthie no doubt will win a Nobel prizes, a psychiatrist and bioengineering. Incredibly successful in science also is five kids pact practice. In clinical psychiatrist, and I I asked him: what is your tool? What in the world are you doing, and he says well at least once every twenty four hours I sit down in a chair, and I force myself to stay completely. Motionless and think only incomplete
princes for about a half an hour. I tried doing this for about five minutes. It is really tough. I, by any one to try and only right, incomplete sentences for five minutes when they journal as opposed to this- and you know, the texting. We tend to use your descriptive clauses and we tended you fragments now and worse, Now the brain thinks in kind of fragments and symbols and with that's very efficient, we wouldn't want it only think incomplete sentences. but by writing incomplete sentences by force that pain of writing or that pain of thinking in a structured way you are building up You are reinforcing the neural circuits that support the so called spinning of multiple plates, the ability to move the spotlight to a single location, you're learning at a harness the spotlight at one location. so I think a lot of people don't realize they can train these circuits relate
to attention, he might say. Well how could writing complete sentences help me multitask that doesn't make any sense you're still taking control of these attentions systems. It's like learning how to operate any vehicle. Of course, it's it's not going to allow you to operate that vehicle in every context and in every way that vehicle could be operated but you're learning the basic mechanics of attention when you force yourself to write in complete sentences to think or speak incomplete centres, and this is why I do the long podcast. I do these two and a half hour park s by myself and it's hard, and I think this is hard. I can't just say a half ascended, the just drop it cause. I know the rest of what I wanted to say its work, but it feels good, and this is the other element which is that over time, the dopamine Sis can be woven into the systems that control effort. I guess the group, the notion of growth mindset, is learning to copper with to exploit it.
The work is learning to couple the notion that effort is good for us, but Neuro chemically. We can start to experience, friction and thing. This is growing. you know. In any other context, it would be corny, but in this context, and because of a Leah Crumb study of Navy seals, I can appropriately say learn to think about effort like a seal wood, which is. This is growing me in that fought you releasing dopamine in response to effort, in other words the more free. you're, a good, more friction good. I actually think about a lot. I had some trying circumstances recently uninteresting forsaken. This podcast and I thought tat. This is either gonna make or break us in thought what if I just decided that the more stress now the better it's gonna be and its in continuous, but then you have to keep doing that and then, when you got sleep deprived. You have to do it again and when someone triggers you have to do it again, so I loved it outta loop,
and I love that you raised for the first time I heard you, someone raised it outta loop, not as something that's done once based on over and over and over. So it's outta loops the plot, well yeah and I think we always hear about it as a unitary thing. But it's outta loops, like you're in the observation over here and you're in action on this one, and so it's multiple outta yep and by the way, you're running, like a tactical low level like real time short term OODA loop, for what I'm going to get out of this right now, but at the same time you're running a bigger ooda loop or you should be less strategic, a loop, that's looking at Waco, while houses can affect meat, six months from now, and then you ve gotta, be even bigger one, let's go in five years. Does all these different loops going on at the same time that you have to be running, forgive me it mean to interrupt that's they form. I was just to excite and I got too excited- I couldn't says, didn't suppress my forward. The interrupting is a forebrain limerick, friction glitch, forgive me: that's your forebrain accessing the library of past present and future
You know this. When you talk, here's another. in cross over so A lot of times when I talk about people taken a step back, taking a breath looking, round its the word I use for them with four for doing that is detached you, after detached from the chaos in the mayhem you, after detached from your own emotions. Well, interestingly, another thing I will tell people when they ve got up. more evasive! What's this oh burning problem, that they want to figure out a solution for one. The things I recommend they do is they write down what the problem is right down what some various solutions are and what it does. Is it It literally detaches you from the problem because now you're having to think through really what this problem is and how you're going to articulate it on a piece of paper for yourself and then you're going to look at it from a detached perspective, you're going to read the words that you wrote and it really we does it