This is joppa gas number three thirty seven with echo charles and me jocker, willing redeeming echo this evening. we plan to take down and insurgents cell known to be located in three or four buildings in a village overrun with sunni extremists. I was one of the four seals on the outskirts making sure the area was clear before establishing the command and control position. Suddenly through my grainy green night vision goggles, I saw family a mom, a dad a ten year old kid and baby, so being outside a shack on a two foot high platform. This entirely unusual, given the middle of the night heat in iraq, families often slept outside, but something this situation fell off to me I saw the father start to reach for something in, told me this was bad.

firmly and clearly to the guy behind me, calling his name jaw jaw jaw. So he would know that I was about to make a move and could cover me I held the iraqi man in my crosshairs ready to shoot him at any moment. As I rushed as fast as I could toward him before, he could grab what did turn out to be a weapon. he was reaching for an eight gave rifle just as I could my foot on his arm. So you wouldn't be able to point a weapon at me or any. My teammates, then I, we put my muzzle on his chest and dude him and listed jewels, help to properly detain him with flex cuffs. I could have shot him at any time, but, as I first approached him I didn't know for sure that he was armed and my instant and instead If calculation made me confident I would be fast enough to get him before he could

take a shot at me or any one else. If he did have a weapon, it turned out. That the AK was fully loaded and he had three. accusations and after we got him cough his family, under our control and our target. secured we realize, as our interrogation process- that he was in fact the number two most wanted enemy in western iraq at the time. so that right there is an excerpt from a book. A book called never enough, which was written by MIKE Hayes who is a retired seal officer who twenty years and the teams which included tours at team for t, mate, team ten and also a tour as the commanding officer of seal team to here. He deployed to south america, europe, iraq and afghanistan. He asked

serve in the white house as part of the nationals dirty counselor council, under both george w bush Barack obama and actually did serve with him for it. Time in germany when he was operations officer and we are Lucky enough to have him here with us tonight to discuss some of his experiences and lessons learned MIKE thanks for joining us man, jocko great, to see your brother, to be here- we haven't- we haven't, hung out march since we are plain com, bout water, polo in germany which, was circa nineteen. Ninety eight, and you were stationed at unit. True, were you there after I was the assistant ops officer, but does is close enough. I'll catch you, the assistant? Oh that's, right, seo, exo ops you're the assistant, ops officer, so that europe

made me right as an answer. Events like the assistant, assisted saucer, so we'd have These games, these water polo get. Did you ask they play water polar, I didn't play in college by man alive, combat water polo with you is. What am I guess I obviously sucked at water polo, but I was good at jiu jitsu. Even even then, and I used to more. For me, it was more just water. Jujitsu aspires against the guys that actually could play water, polar the good I know some guys are a couple of guys that played water polo in college. I don't know if you remember that yeah there was guys that really needed to get taken out of the guy, or at least mitigated as much as possible yeah. I dunno. I read further for people listening the rules, there's just really one rule. If you let go of the ball you're supposed to, let go of the purse zoo. It was intense, and I always did my best to be on your team

right on good times are right, let's outlets, let's get right into it. Let's talk about you and but sort about where you, where you grew up, where its words grab your new england a right, yet it will get, was then in an eighty, so a balanced round a good bit, but from nitrate on ports with rhode island. When it, what did your dad do in the navy? He was a combination somewhere in or out of college and then supply officer, so kind of a joint there. And how long did you do? He did twenty years twenty three years ago, as you are all over the place. I was until until my three, where Where were you up until my great I lived in mechanics bird Pennsylvania guam, you know just to cobble places around the around the? U s and Then not just rules really happy to settle down and in nice great onward and call the big little state of rhode, island home. How are you goin for what grades seventh and eighth grade was? Pretty

then, by what you now it now. That was eighty three to eighty five, so glomeris remote and eighty three, eighty four, eighty four we yet the superbowl mailed to us like four weeks after happened, because I went to guam in nineteen ninety two, ninety three, they find it when they started scented seals thereon deployment, and it was I mean it. You were not, really connected. I mean there's no internet or anything. So everything took a while to show up there. It was a. It was a very educational part of my growing up. You know, there's a the the simplicity, it was awesome, but at the same time you definitely give up some of the the the amenities of modern life? Did you go to school out in town? Or did you go to school on base? Went to a a private catholic high school, actually in junior high school high school soccer, seventh and eighth grade, so he didn't give

I did. The crap beat out to you by the lower saw no idea covers. I did Fred knows it as dv in hawaii. But he grew up in a light. and I was actually a team three as well, but he said it was so it was rough mad grown up. He was a highly kid in hawaii is if it was rough, bad echoes commentary this rough, it rough the hell you kids, I can be, it depends really depends well. This particular guy was a great guy where I think he might have been claiming a lot of it had to do with him being wholly. I think it me I have also had to do with his mouth, which was a rather large. That is typically the case here, fisher classic. So you know, you mention your dad was in the navy, but you you have a section here about your grandfather as well, and I'm going to go to the this an rediscover its pretty awesome. Pisa history, you say

my grandfather, graduated from the naval academy in nineteen forty and was nursing a hangover in a bungalow on the the harbour naval base the more of December seven nineteen, forty one when the japanese began bombing with seven others at the time and when the first wave of something going on. He knew he needed it get in his jeep and go towards the but back to his ship. None of the others would go with him, they all believe they were safe or where they were. told me? The scariest part was heading toward the ship drive. Past marine guarding the gate at forty five miles an hour without stopping worrying, guard, would shoot him my and father made it to a ship, and man is matt battle station He was on board that ship for the third wave of attacks and tended to many of the wounded that day in the way the bombing he realised that he didn't want to spend his career on the ground or at sea You tell me this story. He would point up the sky and say he wanted to be up there. He

in a transfer to become a pilot and asked flight school as a world war, two raged across the pacific. He ended stationed in the illusion islands doing long range bombing missions from the outermost islands and helping to attack strategic sites in northern japan he took over. As the commanding officer of his thirty five plain bomb Squadron at age, twenty six after his own commanding officer, was shot down and he later served as a test pilot for the navy's first helicopters and the commanding officer of the navy's first helicopter squadron during the korean war. He in his career as a professor of naval science, at holy cross and commanding officer of the school's rotc training unit,. He taught me about causes greater than self what it means to serve and how to keep pushing yourself to get better.

No offense bro, but if anyone should have written a book it sounds like it would be. The granddad have, I agree larger than life he's a real like absolute hero. You know it it's. I was less to be old, grow up around a person that didn't say. What do you want to be? when you grow up, he would always say who do you want to be? And you know there are a few of us on now in the nation and on the planet that know what it's like to set. Your personal desire in a suit side and assume risk for the nation. I grew up with the stories of my grandfather, who did that quite regularly in it was always inspiration on I'm really. Thankfully, unquestionably made an indelible mark one on who I am so. He was the commander of the rotc unit at holy cross. That's.

That's. That's that's awesome to think you had a guy. That was that did all that. Did he fight in the korean war when the use of a helicopter pilot, so he was actually here at north island, california and as the as h. U one was the the unit name and I just remember it cause. I can still see a lot of his plaques that he added on his walls, which are are almost memorized in hindbrain, but but in korea. What the navy would do is put a couple of copters out on some of the frigates. In the ships and then use that fly search and rescue, and so he like look like Those of us who, in leadership positions in combat he didn't have to get into the cockpit and gulf, lie every time he went to visit the troops- and there was something that happened he said told the the young j g to step aside, and he was gonna, fly this one and I'll never forget one great story that he told from korea about you know being shot at quite heavily going into rescue a pilot and just calmly looking at his co pilot and after this co pilot was freaking out a bit and saying service,

if the data they're shooting at us, they're, shooting at us and and and of course, I'm I'm sure, my my grandfather just still ice in his veins just said, son we're at war, that's their prerogative. I was on a hose on I uh got going on an operation was my first deployment to Iraq and were driving in a convoy and were heading south of baghdad. It was a long transit we had. We were going down to new joffe. As a matter of fact, it was a long haul, a few hours maybe like for five hours, but we're get ambushed and a couple peaches and some small arms for an hour, PJ's missed us, one of them went over and I'm in vehicle to, and it was a lie a convoy we had some vehicle. Another type of vehicle So if I had six vehicles so that we do you were driving blacked out and its at night and we get so my vehicle. We make its note, nothing happens to us at all and then, We see I, and the first thing I saw was I was looking kind of outboard and I just see

In explosion, in which the first thing that I saw, I saw a couple of tracers, but then I saw an explosion which was an rpg that went high and then another one went low and just you know, cap driving, I think, are know push through the typical call whenever and a hen by the toon chief, who is great guy that he was in equal six, so he's the one that got to like watch the refugees near miss and all those duffin. He comes up on the radio regos he's I assure it will we just gotta ambushed back here we takes more rigid parts and some heads as freaking small arms in upon up on the radio roger. Then he got a big kick out that maybe I should have been more understand. at the time, but the anchor gonna, try and say com.

Sometimes empathy working on how you doesn't right, and so you see your grown up each. You do your high school years in rhode island. What what? What? What sports were you doing? Did you play sports? Yet debts is soccer. Basketball baseball, you know, was very you average at all three in a town that was the state that wasn't exactly competitive either. So that's that's a harsher statement about poor old right road. And so you're, just a decent. After having how tall you six war and you didn't play, didn't you, you got a basketball, I was, those decent, but in college, all my friends we're on the varsity team and I was like man. I can't hold a candle to these guys and when great three studying hard. I was I was a good student in high school Were you? What kind of music were you listening to? Oh gosh, while that's a great question,

so middys always like me. No raw show little quiet riot, maybe what else without a ban, but you know that the commission had pretty much data atomic quiet, rider and feel the noise, am I sure that twist sister men, my hair metal bands and then censured since your grandfather worked at wholly cross. You went on the cross was that pre paid or deigned or out that happened. My family has a long history of holy cross. My great grandfather is in the bar city, hall of fame class, an ip ten, and in so my my grandfather, there's a lot of reality. given their so. No one ever pushed the navy or wholly cross or anything on me. It was more of just a hasten. Here's what's out there there's this thing called the four year are

you see scholarship and know I just love for you to be familiar with it, and you know I'll, never forget my my grandfather and dad put me in the car like summer of junior year in high school and driving the up to totally crossing in actually meeting the major who is in charge of the unit at the time, and there was a guy who to this day, is a great friend of mine. Done for later became the chairman and joint cheapest half. So The whole process is, it is a story, the institution with a lot of history- and I was it was a no brainer for me, then, you show up there at your instantly? Yours, you take an rotc scholarship out of the gate. I just let me know if they're paying for college everything, that's pretty good deal yeah at the time. I was just thinking to myself, as the oldest of four there's a great chance to not burn any cash and save money for my younger three siblings to be able to go to college, and you know it's. I thought I do four years or some sort of while sir and get out of it being have great leadership experience for four years, and then you recall we,

panama, panama, eighty nine. There was a guy named John connor's who was killed on the patio runway. John was a john polytech graduate but wholly cross holy cross rotc. So my first exe, was your. The seal teams was the memorial service in the chapel at holy cross, where the the seal community came together and remembered John connors, and that left a real mark on me, but freshman year dude I was six for and I dunno about a hundred and five pounds million thought it was. There is no way at that age. I even thought about myself being capable of going through seal training, but then later on as the years progress- and I I from one pushups to one and a half or something you know than I do too many buds, and then with what was was at your first. Of knowledge of the seal teams. Yeah fertilize! Yes, when panama happened here because panel definitely influence me as well, because I thought to myself: wait: there's a war there's a war going on as far as I'm concerned, there's a war going on, and I was thing

I myself? How is this happening and I'm not there, and how do I get there s a p and that's why you in the navy? Well, you know for me it was not what went through my headed it at that time. For me, it was more like become familiar with it and set it aside for a couple years- and you know in ROTC, you spend weaken the summer with the pilots a week with the end of the submarine and the surface guys you try to figure out. What do you want to be when you grow up and unite agreed aviation? bruce. I flew in a six off of the: u s s saratoga and was right after top gun came out, so there's like ninety two wish or something and I was like a party and like a rock star and thought I'm it will be applied This is freaking awesome. Then I went to three weeks. buds and became perversely attracted with that challenge is also holy cross. Have you ve been a notre dame before? I have you so noted name. I've been there a few times and it you know like the fee.

males are allowed in the mail, dorms and yeah for them. If they are, they gonna be out there by ten o clock at night, like it's pretty strict from a college aged in perspective holy cross like that as well. It's not as strict as the there were. You know at this point. Maybe I am going to guess roughly ten or fifteen jesuit priests on as as professors when I was in college, It's less now, but you know there are some that wouldn't would go out and enjoy a glass of wine or more for of that. They disappear around ten o clock at night independence, but it was it was it was out. There is a great relationship between you know. The the student body in the faculty so now you're saying that you did summer cruises and for those people Now. This is when you're going to college you're in ROTC. The navy will take young college kids and send him out to get a little taste of the different parts. The navy so did you do a ship

Just a straight up shipboard one I did for a day, and I was like this ain't me. You know so that's all it took on that wasn't hard. What did you wear you actually go like onto ship somewhere. That was on deployment or what was that you know. I think what we did was held. Copter from norfolk over to some frigate for thirty six hours or something was thank god, it wasn't longer. and then what year was out after your year. Ninety one ninety two issue than when did you: The pilot thing you? between junior and senior year. Ok, so between your juniors year, junior and your senior year you get the full on top gun experience. I did and then the fall on buds and experienced after that, so that was in the same summer same summer, that was an optional three week thing and I thought you know in order to really figure out. Do I want to be a pilot, or do I want to be a seal? I've got to go. Do this many buds thing and they took thirty, two kids out of college for that program what what year was the many, but it was.

summer of ninety two, so you show up to men. But what are they doing? This is three weeks it a legit. They they legit three week, one week of each of the three phases of trains, you mean you're going through it you're like how does this compare with the real thing it was after going through the real thing, I looked back and say we got a legit full treatment for each of the three weeks and I think nowadays they use that so of its called something else, now think it's called seal officer, assessment and selection and its it's something like many buds, but it's sort of the select and how they're going to figure out who gets to go. Was it like that for, for you guys, Definitely was we came out with like grades out of the thirty two you know like not grades as an academic, but like just an all around score of how you did and- and you know I I remember- having a pretty high number and thought I think I'll be probably. This will then be pretty well. If I applied to to to circle back and go to buds and history has it, I didn't.

Took sixteen guys out of our o t, see my year, sixteen guys the academy. So there are thirty two officers taken into the the and, as you know, I don't know the number number, maybe fifteen of those made it through ultimately or some like that. Zoning quid quitters and many, but oh yeah yeah. It was fun. It's just like okay, don't let the door hit you in the ass on the way out. You know and so this is now nineteen. Ninety three that you graduate from home cross and you get your arm. You get selected I mean the selection process for officers now is totally insane I mean it's insane back, then but with all the hype around seals and all that, it's just ridiculous, but still taken seen from or to see in sixteen from the naval academy. That's slim pagans. It was talking heartening. As a rising senior needing to make alike decision was that I knew that if I applied for buds, I would not get my number two choice of pilot because unto you

as you work through and they take the washouts who they don't pick for seal training. All the pilot slots are gone, so it's a little bit of a gamble. It was a lot of a gamble, but, like anything in life, go for what you want and then you would have been on that ship that you didn't like very my argument and then you should write a book about costs for your one. Ninety one. Ninety two three show four buds class, one. Ninety two: how prepared were you you think I was there he prepared. I wasn't that far from those gifted physical athlete, you know what we were friends did. You have showed him did fifty pull up in a struggle with my middle age. Quarter. You know he's not like that, but six, four to thirty the time I like all, I I ran real fast with swim like a fish. The o course was no trouble for me. Pull ups were my my downfall, but I I came in feeling pretty strong was ernie was there anything that really challenge due.

For me, it really was the pull ups it, but never to the point where I wasn't a joke around about eight and a quarter, but I was just you know I just I just knew I was going to. I was there the reason you know if something's worth doing it's worth overdoing and I prepared as well as I could and- and I just took it really seriously when I went through and kind of limited. My my drinking when I was going through buds at age, twenty one everybody's drinking like a fish, I was pretty serious about recovery in and just knew I needed every advantage. I could possibly help myself with when I want your mother didn't leave the barracks really like. I was total nerd. I would sharper my knife and polish my boots like all weekend long, and I didn't even think about that. covering aspect. I think that's a new thing like the idea, of recovery, didn't really have that. I didn't think of that. You didn't have guys walking around with those big jug gallon jugs, a water. They all that legal with that. That was the thing we in art and just pump the fluids after the after the day and for the weekend. I didn't really have too much

now? I've always thought that if you were, if you couldn't do pay Are you gonna have a problem with the course it's It's like you had problems with pulse, but you still didn't have a problem with the o course dude, I'm I've. I've honestly, I flew through the. I was always top five in the of course henderson. It pull! Ups! That's really bizarre! Well, I mean it's just a different type of strength, pulling just a little bit laterally. Sometimes you know it's just that dead, overhead up and down for pull. Ups is a little different than like rope climb where you're at that a little bit of an angle. How will you get a rope climbs to yeah yeah? It was really good that we must have some weird genetic anomaly were pulitzer harp cause, that's crazy right to build a do there, of course, in a in a top, I've position and be socket polyps. That seems crazy. I can't it's age. I can just tell you what I experienced yeah. Well, the cool thing about sucking at pull ups. Is you probably won't fail buds because you,

pocket parks right. You can fail, you can get dropped from buds for running. You can draw get dropped from buds from swimming. You can get dropped from buds for the o course, but for perhaps you might get you know, tease basically by the doctors during a pity, but yeah now you're not gonna get dropped. I know it's. It's very true. It's very true how many young people quit. How did you start with an army people when we started with one twenty and nineteen graduated, starting with one twenty nineteen graduated? Would were you did anybody quit that you are like Dang were how's that Well, yeah. You got guys that look like you are walking on on day one and you're like man. What am I doing here, but you know guys just drop like flies. in dumb, you know my son you remember, in the beginning, they they assign swim buddies. You just throw people in the pool and go swim. You know a mile or half mile. I can't remember what it was, but it was just soon as that.

As you can, and with one hundred and twenty guys in the pool you're crawling all over each other and just doing it, and then they just up. You know number one in number, two or some pair one number three number for some per too and so on. So myself and Chris Cassidy were sworn pair one And so christen I like lifelong friends from day one and buds and in the two of us just dumb were always had this fond healthy sense of talking trash at each other, and you know he ended up the as yet. Demand for the class, and I years later went back to buds, and I told him that I pulled all the records in recalculated the math, and at this point you is an astronaut a horse. You known- and I said he- I just got some bad news for you, I'm having your name taken off the plaque in my name's, going on so so, but nothing really challenge you made it through one shot, one shot, honestly, no major injuries or anything like that dude. I was like that or nothing so I I really can honestly say I never thought about quitting, and I never would. It was hard just like the rest of us, but just powered straight through.

So then you get assigned to us now, nineteen, eighty four and ninety four ninety and you get to signed a team for. Did you speak? Did you speak spanish prior to that? I was almost double major: spanish good good in the box, but never real at that point life not a lot of practical spanish cause. That was when we were come not if you spoke spanish, you're, gonna team for neck and much guaranteed so being a new guy at the team and have a good new guy story from your book here and I will go to the book. It says, another story again from my time as a brand new seal, the name need, four of us to test out some new equipment. I was and told to take part in the exercise they took us in a boat two or three miles off shore drift. Just in the water and told us to swim to the beach stay for a few minutes and then switch back to the boat together turned out

that conditions were unexpected, be harsh, forty, not wins. Nearly eight foot high waves and the four of us immediately lost each other, unable to see more than a few feet in front of us manage scary in its own right I swam for what felt like hours before I finally got to the beach, and once I was there, I could not see my teammates. I waited and waited but there are simply no sign of them. maybe I'd. Miss them made God slowed down by the waves. Maybe they already made their way back so back in the water and try to return to the boat. Even though I couldn't see it in my mind. I had to complete the assigned mission at all costs. Just keep going. this is what a seal has to do. I couldn't find my way back to the boat. Because the harsh conditions I was using my silver ranger companies to do my best to swim straight line a bearing to the planned link up point, but it didn't work, I realized. I must have drifted much more than I expected. I couldn't see back to the beach either for a few

hours. I was basically lost at sea worrying. The other three more experienced seals would think I was a total screw up. I'd broken up strap and a one point I was startled. Ok, scared. When I was moved about ten feet: no water, bumped, whore by a massive see mammal I met No one would ever find my body, and everyone in the seals would think. I must not a bit been a good swimmer. Despite entering buds training with one of the fastest swim times in the history, the program and alone with my swim, buddy Chris Cassidy coming seconds away from the fastest ever two miles. Women buds. Finally, The boat found me and pick me up, and I was quickly exaggerated for being stupid enough to make the swim back out to see my red teammates, had ended up down the beach from where the current had taken me. Just a bit, far away from you to see them and stayed on the beach until the boat came for them. Knowing conditions were to miserable to even

empty head back. I'd put myself that risk for a training exercise, because I confused doing the hard thing with doing the right thing? My decision was far too risky to make sense. Even a confident, incapable, swimmer, There are so many little lessons in that one right there that little story and by the way, so your book is filled with a bunch of lessons and obviously I'm just reading excerpts from it and and this this chapter was choosing the hard path and doing the hard thing of course, everything's a dichotomy, and you can do things where you go too hard, but man, I can't even imagine you with your silver ranger, which is for those you don't know the compass that used to navigate on the land and you pay. You probably had it with you for, like india or some whatever and you actually pay This thing out, you're trying to swim a bearing jeez literally. Parts of this is totally ridiculous and what I am what I love about this, and this is so true. The

then you're worried about your lost at sea for hours, you're gettin pushed around by sea animals, the maid thing you're, worried about is looking like a lose its bad teeth. Guy, that's exactly right, I still vividly remember being you know, push this- you know eight or ten feet or so in the water and just thinking. Okay, this is going to be the end, but the worst thing is people are just going to think. I was a terrible, summer is just not where you want the look you want. I was like no, I'm a good swimmer. Please don't think that you know so yeah there's a million lessons in there. You know it's a you know this. Well when you, when you write a book, if you, if you if you're the president of your own fan club by definition, you don't have a book, you know and so sharing these things where we a debt didn make good decisions are, or in retrospect, were actually stupid. I think where the learning is in that's what I tried to do in the book you you as a new guide, meaning this the universal. You me you all of us as new gas pack, you do some dom dumb things

and this is a classic example of like this as are all the other guys that were experienced like hey we're, not swimming back out. Are you kidding me we'll all die and you of course hey that's what the mission is we're going to go and do it. Boil over a move towards an interesting thing. I d sooner us in europe. active on this, but you know growing up in the teams before nine eleven It- was mission mission mission at all costs post, nice Levin. Our community got much better at saying. You know what there is new information, let's incorporate, new information or, what's going on, let's think about risk is the risk worth the reward in constantly re, reassessing that risk in. Oh it it's it's, it became ok. I have to turn around on a mission in Iraq or afghanistan and say: hey. You know what the risk profile just changed, massively we'll we'll come back another night for these. This group of terrorists there's this risk is not worth assuming unless not do the mission and in what way I was growing up when you were growing up. We'd be excoriated for not doing the mission. Later on. We were held up as smart yeah

well. Otherwise there is a big difference. You know when we work common up before the war started. were literally training for the big mesh. Singular like Hell, you're gonna, do this one mission, we didn't know what it was, but that's what we were training for yeah. There was no way genuine seem like a feasible idea that you would. Turn around on automation or not complete the mission and then yeah lobbies. as the war kicked off and once we start to get combat exe as for our generation, it was I owe this doesn't make any sense o the risk is too high or the He has what we're not going to get him then and yeah. That's something there. You had to learn, just as our forefathers had to learn and its. Unfortunately, while those lessons that it it's over, it's like we will. We had to relearn it. You know I wrote about this strategy and tactics. We used to set up this training scenario in in mouth Sal caribbean recalled the urban training, where the guys be clearing like down a building down hallway

and there'd be. We have a barricaded shooter at the end of the hallway everybody that ended all way would get riddled with paypal and get put down and you'd see, unfortunately just every leader would fall victim to east. More guys, go they get more down to more guys, go they get modem more guys go vague modem and then you don't. Finally, after you know three quarters of the task in his laying down the hallway. We too, hey man, take a step back, think about what's happening. What are you doing? does make any sense, and they would have that's what they have to do. Is it have to learn to detach and take a step back and go? Oh, this is obviously bad, and I shouldn't continue to do this so yeah definitely a lesson that we learned and that we had then to pass on the next generation of seals too. To make sure they understand that quitting is an option, and

Oh, you don't quit from a strategic perspective, but with whenever tactic, I'm using right now is going to cost us lies or good, get people killed or doesn't make sense. I got no problem sate up. I was wrong this bad move we're not doing it anymore totally agree? It's! a lot of people ask me: how does your business career not have been retired for ten and help run the operations or VM, where roofs really large software company, the the applicability is the exact same it's here we have a certain amount of capital to invest. We invested in in place a or place be or seeing and in what minute. You know what we're getting feedback from the market that that our original choice wasn't quite right. Are you gonna, do trying to invest your way through and through throw bad money after good money. After a bad path, know: you're gonna make a decision, some costs or some let's go, try something new and ended in quickly dynamically assess and so the parallels with in business, and the seals are in the military writ larger are really really perfect.

yeah. I often end up talking to companies and that's the exact exam. while uses hey. We tried this getting campaign- it's not not the our ally, we expected- let's, put more money into it. Ok, at least I don't get the or expected. Ok, let's put even more money- and this is the same thing ascending guys down the hallway to get shot up on awesome. Show you user, you get a team for that's kind of an example of team for What else is going on a team for when you got there? Do you get to get put right into a platoon I was relatively quickly. Maybe six months or so, of kind of like schools in individual, but did you sir, you through std at the team, or was it at the time? Ok, sorry, so your team is running. Ass. Tt was out course of instruction it was. It was good if you don't know you don't know what that age, and that's that at that time in life, you know, but look everything was learning at that point. Learning what to do something.

Learning point to do. You know why we on it, but but am need exposure to what was going on. I remember endemic. in training being at forty p hill, one range, well from us. There were four marines that were in a demolition accident and and basically vaporized and it was terrible and and so what was the accident, there was something called a meekly charge. It was like a line charge and these it went low order and then they collected all the c for and put it in a pile and then went to burn it, but forgot that there was this little thing called MR in the sea for and so when they went. Could you can burn C4 as everybody as as you know, but not have never been in a surly does and in that cause it to go high order? And I, and so you know right all right away were exposed to your real situations and so lots of like, like you know, a lot of the the biggest learning comes from the heart of situations. What what school?

Did you go to as a new guy officer? Well, you know it's funny at one of my greatest friends and life were worn, Nicholson was the operations chief and as a brand new and in armour walking an insane our chief neck. The only question I have, as do I gotta freefall and then snipers labour than freefall. He's I shut up new guy. You got some dog and ponies warrior settle. If I was you know, hidden erode doing you know the dog and pony shows in all cases, but I I want to know the time it wasn't like you could get written freefall. Schools took me three or four years to be we get there, and so I dont even my school's, resell unremarkable at that time. That or they yeah. I know it's a new guy got set to like I was a very lucky that got sent the car a calm school on the east, which was awesome, but other than that it was like demo drive We're school register scares value chain of the trailer to the vehicle and stuff a complete new guys. Schools are reagan horrible, and then you get put an a system to commander of Yup assistant, platoon, commander and how's your work up. Do you do in the six months to

What do you know you're doing a six month appointment at this time, team four deploys to south america: yeah was it deployment was to panama and then from there just a lot of what J sets joint, combined exchanges for meaning where we we bounced around- and you know we train in El Salvador, chile, Peru, just the the local opera operational forces that were similar to ours and dumb, and it was just a big. You know a big, bunch of fun. It's there just wasn't wasn't there was no real real stuff going on, but lots of learning. how was how was your What would you feel like as a as a new guy off so if you're talkin do yourself, when you were younger, you're talkin, do young and sinner lieutenant aging is wrong or to obtain right now? What? What would your mode? Your vice me look, I think one of the things it that young officers always russell with, is how to walk the line between b,

a leader when a leader is needed to step forward, but at the same time really have the humility that a lot of other people know a lot of things that you don't know into that's. What makes the team special is is when you think about how you make decisions and who makes decisions. We just grow up with that, just built into who we are and and and that's really, you know the the the the The thing you test is: what do I stepped forward say or a guy's shut up lock. we're going this direction and when you come to step back like like you, you were a spouse in a lot of your work is lead leading from the rear is ok No one ever expect sir, the seal leader to say a lead from the rear right yeah other times you go lead from the front. Yes, absolutely renewed. Somebody dangerous or something that's horrible were something that's even monotonous, sometimes step up- and I got this but yeah- Oh, if I, if I have the opportunity in someone might platoon or my team, wants to step up and lead, no brom go for it

to say are alike, to try and lead with minimum force required right why are we are a couple great points here: First of all, I always say the Ellen seal stance for lazy, like we ve the easiest path to go, achieve the goal, because that give you more time, effort and energy for the next problem or lets you russen recover for the next problem, but you know it's like in business, we're always thinking about succession planning only way, you're gonna get your second line ready to be. The first line is if the first line can take a step back and let the second line be the first line. So the only thing You do if you're in the leadership position and what I, but when I try to do now, I think it's one thing I do decently is to step back and let other people in the decisions and only way and if and when needed, most employees. The process does the process to make this. It makes make sense, is thinking about like the seals or a meritocracy it as you knows, who cares where they idea come from you get all the ideas on the table, you find the best idea. Best ideal winds and

the way you're gonna go to the mission in that's exactly the way we we need to operate and often do operating in business and and course this doesn't mean you let the second string, you go run off the cliff, but you can let him but bump into the guard rail, and get a little dinged up and they're going from that put some bondo on there and they'll, be all right, but a lot of times. People are paranoid, want to take any risk at all and think that, oh, you you're gonna make a mistake: it's like hey, yea they're, going to make mistakes and that's how they're going to learn to it comes down to comfort and you're. All right. I mean it's it's if, if I described careers in three phases, the first phase is getting really good at something whatever it is. Doctor lawyer would do seal whatever this phase, is trying to show the world you're, really damn good at what you ve chosen in that third phase, which many people don't get too is being so confident that you are good You no longer need to prove it to anybody and that's what lets you step back, I think.

Seen in the business world, though the people, the leaders who don't stepped back, what I see is oftentimes a lack of a lack of confidence that that that make person feel like if they're not inch in front of the room, making the decision than than they're not seen as the one in charge, and so it's real really, I think, of a failure of leadership when you cast out back, I had one of the things I used to teach the jails was. You have nothing to prove, but everything to prove, and the nothing to prove part is handled. how we build this palette. I dont care, you know, I don't care goes on this operation. I don't care what route we take in. like there's a bunch of little decisions that are gonna, get made that if europe were to makes them power

quickly. Fine and you don't need to prove well. My way of getting to the target would be a little bit more efficient than yours or my way and that we will not get our feet wet year. I just like all these little things where sometimes that insecure junior leader feels like they need improved everyone that there in charge- and you don't you have, thing to prove your actually in charge your de facto in charge and that's fine. You dont need approve it. What you you need to prove that you're gonna, listen that you're gonna die. attention that you're gonna make the right decisions at the right time that when it is time to weigh in you're gonna do so. Things: smart, not something rash, so yeah all good things to think about speaking of not being rash, Here's a little scenario. You talk about the book. My platoon was once training at the altar hama Messina alabama item ma automobile river in georgia and we add an enthusiastic seal named max. We were,

in kayaks, with a good amount of gear inside trying to find the most convenient way to transport guns, paddles, insensitive reconnaissance equipment that had to stay dry as we waited through the shallow water, suddenly Ex very calmly, stopped and said to me, MR haze, there's a gate around my leg is key. Than meat demeanor in the face of such an alarming statement caused me to doubt him until he lived does, that out of the water, I saw three to four foot. Baby alligator had indeed at indeed latched around his knee masters. Extreme credit did not overreact. He said calm, certainly calmer than I would have been an took deep breaths. till the alligator decided to opened his mouth and let go axles unharmed other than for bite mark two scars. Many enemies or not. Operative as that baby alligator ended up being, which is why our reactions to situations are so important

the smartest seal, isn't the one with the greatest wrong intelligence? It's the one who has the best and quickest reaction to the problem, the cu, quickly, assess and decide. The best course of action is the one I want on my team, not the sea who gets emotional that's his feelings or his fears get in the way pure rationality. I said in after one that I would take someone with hunger over some with greater ability every time? I'd also take someone, korea well over someone with greater raw intelligence. You want both in time wouldn't and control, but in the sky, four moments control matters a lot, I would love to people who are smart enough to predict the future, but I haven't, across many of them. So I need people who, We act well, no matter what the future turns out to hold. No matter there on tax to the importance of having good,

controlled reactions to surprising situations can never be overstated. So there you go rican, gator chops on your leg and yet you know you know the saying you don't have to out swim? Your buddy? You just have to excuse me, you don't have to outrun the shark. You just have to assume your buddy, so you know it's like shit. I go on a dry land and get away from this guy. Nor do I remember that situation very well, but in all sincerity it is the expression. Calm breeds, calm, excitement, breeds excitement, you've been shot at and rocketed enough to know that anytime, you're, not calm. You are just using emotion that could be used to solve the problem. do you think that the that buds weeds out some of that too good question, I think, to some degree, but not perfectly

yeah. It's definitely not perfect, because I know you- and I both have seating of your girlfriend like like this guy max- is a great example of like the cool collected seal that you want in your platoon, either in charge you're platoon or wanting your machine guns you produce, haven't I like that is awesome having a somebody. That's just losing their mind is absolutely horrible. I think that's what those traits You can learn. No I'm sure your ass, a similar question. I am frequently which is talk to me about. What's innate leadership what're you born with and what it can you train through time. I think that com is a thing that you can learn and train through time You re a hundred per cent and you I got really lucky in that. The last word that I did was run in trade it out on the west coast until I got to run this frequent leadership laboratory, which was I honour, think it might have been the great leadership, laboratory, that's ever exist in the world. That's what I think

just to be able to put these guys in these stressful situations with so much on the line and look it wasn't life or death knows. I guess combat is never better leadership laboratory, except for in combat you can't take a guy and through adoration after adoration after adoration cause he's dead. If he's bad, she can't really is not a laboratory to real world test is combat a better real world test. Then then, when through training, yes, it is, but training that we had was really crazy. Good. was realistic was hard and you would see guys develop these traits. You would watch guys you see them and any put in a situation and they lose their mind or they start getting getting paid, or they start freaking out about something and you'd see everything would fall apart. Their platoon fall apart. and then maybe you know the next time you here you say you debris from hey, listen man! When you start yeah and screaming on the radio, no one's listening to you anymore, it's not getting through anybody they too can make sense of what you're saying you need to

calm down. You need think I would say, simple, clear, concise and we're. So you knew brief, mamma and then Next time made this organic saudi, go Hannah frederick, take a rap off. well what you're going to say. What are you going to tell your petunia do have to get on a hold on. What do you tell them? I'm an attempt to get a lot what're you gonna, do the move to building thirty. Four ok now come up on the radio and just say that or just yell it does just put the word and then see the guy do it and you could see that they wouldn't learn so yeah, You can absolutely learn this stuff. Is all your humble enough to her as long as your humble enough to take criticism and and and assess yourself, so there was a bunch of things that that you can improve There's something that you can improve. It right some genetic things that you have, that you can improve. Move is another thing about about. Recent tragic ecstatic guy coming through is a task to commander superstar guy, good taxation.

the voice of a mouse right. So when it came time to put our word, you know like to tell everyone what was going on here. Just didn't. Have the current project his voice at all? It's I'm talking to Mohammed. Listen, you gotta start! you just put in a word up any my mind, I'm thinking you know, maybe this just maybe I'm just super bias towards being loud cause. I have a loud voice may not just biased and so on, watching him- and I can see trying to put our word. No one can hear its problem, so I say: hey man, if you don't start. open your volume. People can't hear you I don't even know if you can do this job, which is a real like horrible thing to tell someone as a task unit commander he's been in teams for twelve or fifteen years, or something this is a senior guy, and now I'm telling me hey, you can't do this and this the next iteration, I'm watching him and he's gonna make the call any grabs like? big mouth bill. It is produced,

One of is like hey bill telephony, get to building thirty four, now go look at a cop problems out, so you gotta, you ve got some things that you can't get better at Some people are articulate talking in front of a crowd Ok cool pay, echo you're good from the crowd you put the word out to the troops or some people can't simplify a problem. So it's like hey mike, but hard time get through this. Can you simplify these things? Can understand it so Some things are going to? Naturally, not be great up put your leaders the team together where you got some people that are good at that and then be humble enough to say you know what makes a lot better at simplifying things that I am and echoes a lot more articulate than I am so I'm gonna have mike figure The problem I have echoed talk about it works really good to go on the z back and just try and get these guys what they need. so there are things that you can not get better at where you can. You can usually improve them a little bit, but you might not become an expert at them, but there's there's definitely some things that you can absolutely improve on and being calm and being able to detach step back is most certainly

most certainly one of them so that was your system particular was anything else. I will see you got one story on that deployment about kind of get in health. Was this when you got held up a gunpoint talk is through that. So ninety. Ninety six, we were the squad input in peru, squads eight seals. So it's myself in seven guys, and yet we were just training. The peruvian seals, nothing crazy the. I will say that in those days, the leader of the shining path, since luminoso, which was a terrorist organization was in jail about a mile or less than a mile from the peruvian seals compound. So we were like lean mina watched her and when people knew that there was somebody in country helping the peruvian seals, but my set myself and my lp o stay back in lemme for just a day. While the rest, the guy's flew forward to a key those peru, which was deep in the jungles of the amazon and- and

you're, just literally out to dinner one night driving back from dinner, unarmed and two cop cars pinned us in really really quickly jumped out with a three or four three or four guys were armed with rifles, and you basically opened the door held me at gunpoint, threaten me with execution and and they they drove us around, and basing interrogated us asked us a bunch of questions that nobody ever really wants to answer. You know how you want to be tortured, how you wanna be execute How do you want to die? You know, and in a lot of worse things, and in that I had a point where I could. I jumped out of the car that might my LP can needed in the back of his s, you'd be out in the middle seats and I couldn't jumped out one. I was born forty or so save myself, and I very very vividly remember I can never ever jump out of this car because I couldn't live with myself. If I bailed on KEN and I lived in, they killed him. Just not who I wanted looked back to the my grandfather's

Who do you want to be so? We learn never bail on your swim. Somebody and I was night. I was fortunate after that incident because I could answer really really truthfully, knowing that in a life and death situation that I would not bail on my swim, buddy so was a lot of learning it of at a young age. How'd you you get out of that scenario. You know I did what I what I would have wanted victims to do. If I were in the other role, don't look at the victim, so we can't ident earth me, don't look at the assailants so that we can identify them and that the threat goes down and in just be complete. in answer to to our previous part of the conversation around calm. I was so uber call me these. You would never think that I was even one percent remotely worried about the situation I was in. I in spanish. I was where economists were desk workers. We work at the at the embassy and you know we were just out to dinner. These things happen all the time. If we get it, you guys need the car. Take the car. We have insurance, go, take it it's all. It's all you and them

and just really totally mellow answer these questions. I think these guys just figured out these guys are a threat. These guys, guys cannot possibly be seals so so that drove us round enough for the interrogation of about an hour that brought us out of the car gunpoint nose like ok, that's the point where they either pull the trigger they dont myself in Kansas, kept walking cause? I remember very vividly thinking hey a ten foot shot is better than a zero foot shot maybe miss in Oregon, and so I just quickly put between me and the the guy had a gun? At that point you just I wasn't looking backwards. I can't tell you what he was doing. I would just ready to be shot in them and they d never pull the trigger. That doesn't sound like a very nice last day in the city of the matter been back to lemme, and so that's what you did on their deployment. You travel around a spree, nine eleven, your travel around you're, training, forces and and then what happen.

At that after that tour is that with that go to germany, which deal lifelong learning. German for nine months then ended up just going over to germany, Would you want to die first, I did so you speak three languages, then Well, would you want to get out now? I am still working on English. Medea lie come over to germany. This is where I mean you. Ninety seven. Ninety eight, ninety eight because I went basically got them with elsie s. I showed up its team to end immediately went over there and it was the master chief there Who was one of my platoon chiefs and Apparently the conversation went the commander over there or or the ops officer said we need like a. We need someone to come and help out with with ops, and they were ending their send this ensign and theirs.

These guys are sent his team to sentence a damn ensign like what good is it going to do and then then, asked you she's my name. Ngos wait a second. I know this guy. He seriously that name again ends and willing. We want those guy over here. So, enough I showed up and we played water polo yeah. I dunno what we did beside that. If, in all truth, we probably filled out some forms and almost like in the almost the pre computer days, so I dunno what in the world we possibly we weren't delete an email in those days. Well, I'll tell you Funny story we went to. We did some big joint exercise and the skipper at the time. He's a guide dog or you to go forward and we're going to year going to run the the operations and center you know these days. We think of attacked operations that are, you know, we're target, plasma, tvs and satellite links and internet you're talking, you know like a star trek, lookin scenario

it's you not. We went on this mission and I fit this quote tactical operations center into one single rucksack. I had like a seventy seven radio or something I had a bunch of maps. I had some like. I thought I was squared away cause. I had you know like some overlays for the maps and the the What's the world changed between that times since so this is ninety. Ninety eight were I literally had the tackle operation in this. Isn't a big exercise, a big giant, joint exercise that was taken place all over europe and I had a little. You know we had a little that the seals there had a little role in this exercise, but as a big exercise, a lot of stuff going on, and I literally had the entire tactical operation center set in my brok sack scared that some good times right there

So then, how? How long were you how? How long do you spend in germany for two years and in that was the the bosnia kosovo days, and so there was some good learning there too, and I I felt like I would be a better platoon commander if I went overseas at a at a in a role like that for two years and honestly, those two years really set me up to be. We might, in my opinion, a much better platoon commander when I got to seal teammate in ninety nine yeah and and just kind of had some epic leadership over there to the unit that you were out. I mean Leaders are just incredible leadership over their incredible loyal, really strong, brick, smathers and high just great guys. ah sometimes any major sweet suits when you say others. Others there's lessons that I learned the things that I got from that deployment I mean. Is it learning what it's like from the other side when you're on deployment. Yet

it's some taking a look at a seal, platoon and saying what is the effective employment of a seal platoon when you're in the platoon you're a little bit, and I don't wanna, see biased you're. You have a narrow view. You know, and so understanding the difference between what success and beyond it- and I would say, failure but like some average performance is, was really important to me because its list. Hearing having the opportunity at a young age, it'll do You're seniority to see senior leadership, say hey that really awesome or what the hell are, those guys doing. Just those statements themselves carried value. I was um training, so what seal team wants? As I can he five and I went on my first trip where I was kind of like the trip lead and it was to florida to hurlburt field Florida and we put a platoon out in the field for a recon

whatever and like they they flew down. There went right in the field they might have even jumped into the field, but anyways they go down there. They go right to the field and of course I was the only one getting the target set up and all this stuff and then did they get done with the operation and we pull him out of the field, and now they ve got whatever. It is three days in four walls, beach, florida and, unlike It was the first time that I saw a platoon from the outside. and I was like- oh my god- this is gonna- be a prob. There's no way he's got you gotta get through three days of liberty. Here we go is going to be crazy and I I remember that was the first time I was Martin. Because we're europe do- and you don't just like all week, go out now cool out we're done with our op cool. We're gonna go do whatever we want, wherever we are, and that was like this first time I saw it from the outside and it was a good learning lesson for me. Yeah. You know, like we often see now. It's you don't know what you don't know So? How do you take things?

that unknown, unknown quadrant and make them known. I like it, whether it's the seals or in business or the risk and all the opportunity is in that unknown, unknown quadrant. So how'd you get into that and identify pull it back out so We didn't realize it in those days, but that's what we were doing yachts. if that's another lesson another suggested should sayer Reiteration of the lesson of to take a step back and see something has when you're in that platoon you don't you do and you'd been unemployment before you knew what it was like to go on employment, but you were inopportune as you don't quite know, perspective of not being in the platoon and not understanding what that looks like from the outside and not on. Standing. What it looks like when there's some kind of an incident and how much disrupts everyone and how much it hurts a reputation as seals. The awesome, you're a weirdo soup than someone gets in trouble. You're, like all from fred, got trouble you don't Think about it from

What does the fleet think of that? What does that army commander? That's there think of those things you just don't well. At least I didn't I had. You know what I was young, dumb and and well Madame, she redefining just see, wrap up there you wrap up there and then, where you go, see ultimate, took over the baton, commander and and did work up and then deplore down to a kosovo, so what? What years it now? So Ninety nine, I moved back to virginia beach and take over as important matter and when you get there how you, how you feel it has only been able to do so great, it's like finally like I'm ready. You know it's been a year of like put me in coach and then We're, finally in and it's just off to the races- and just knows that you remember the feeling. Well, I'm sure it's it's some, it's everything, it's cracked up to be and more. And three you said you'd this is at teammate here and now you guys are basically fight.

To try and get to go back to you come and go to Kosovo, bosnia, whatever is happening in that theater cause. That's the only shown us the only show in town, but we we made it back in and you know we we did a deployment there where we were doing you know small, four or six men, special reconnaissance missions, and you know we'd go out on three or four day ops and then we'd stand Q, r F for three or four days. While another is a sister part of the you know, it would go out and then and then we'd have three or four days off. So we were actually in a regular, predictable cycle a while we were oversees. You talk a little about one of these operation turn the book. Here we go I was in Kosovo, one thousand nine hundred and ninety nine in the middle of winter, leading a small surveillance team in the mountains, just a few hundred meters from the serbian border, freezing cold producers, the darkness of night howling, winds and course of our serbian and albanian armies somewhere in that same snowy terrain. Why?

then ready looking for an enemy to fight as we Four, through the elements the sun soon to rise, we knew we needed to find a place to rest and hide from the daylight hours from our vanity wait, half way up the side of a mountain struggling to maintain our balance on this Please sloping ground. We could see add for light of drift below railroad tracks. A ten foot wide patch of flat ground, a path that could without would have called out to any one as the comfortable place. We should naturally set up camp. Of course. wanted to move down there, I remember young guy in our team incredulous that we could even be out in this kind of whether humans can't survive in this. He said it's miserable temptation to head down toward the easier path and the more Multiple sight was real, but if we can out to us, we knew calling out to anyone who happened to be coming. That way, going down. There would make us more visible, more vulnerable and more

could run into trouble. So we set up camp a cough couple hundred year meters, up the steeply angled slope and sure enough within an hour and just a short time before sunrise. What look like the entire beynon, army march, straight down that natural line of drift had we been camp there would have found us for sure doing the comfortable, exhausting thing. The hard thing saved us that day. so that is the type of operations you're done very yeah your great reader, by the way that yes did, you did you guys you, winner, warfare, in your work out. We did, and this was asked I guess teammate or six our team to it, sort of given up the the the the walk they had on winner warfare date. They did. You knows all of you for six weeks or something

that in the colorado? What are they? Thirteen thousand fourteen thousand foot peaks, and so we didn't. You slept in snow caves and attempted to get good tell mark, but certainly get good. It that's no shoeing, and we did winter work up in in and it really paid off, because those operations in Kosovo were sometimes really miserable, from a weather perspective and and and then on. That particular passage you just read- I mean I just very vividly remember thinking like if we would have given in and done the easy thing there. We we probably would not have survived, we are at a minimum, would have been captured and and interrogated the. So you do. You did us for six month opponent down in that a yes and you do and pretty much three days on in a field three days on a cure after three days off, yes, was forged stage. If you are often sleep in a home, be for three days or just be be at the ready to go help. Whoever is in the field- maybe you know ten or so kilometers or whatever might be from the from the main element

Anyone ever get contacted. We did on one operation, it actually was. The quick story is that we observed an arms transfer recall we were enforcing the dayton peace accords and an end, and we saw russian forces handing weapons to the serbians which is not the date and peaches peace accords, and this is early early in the day of no light, you know no light cameras and near real time. Sat com sending it back, so we we got pictures and documented the whole thing, and then we weren't set up to do any sort of offensive operations. You know we had a whatever eighty pound packs for three days and as many ham sandwiches,

you can stop in your backpack, but here the young there was a nearby army special forces house that that could get out get out get under way. We call them in they went looked through the the the building where the transfer had happened, and I am you I just assumed that that meant we would be our mission would be over. Yet you know the age old, saying if you assume, if you, if you think you ve been compromised, assume you have and if you have ex bill- and this is a leadership got put against the army major at the time who is in charge of the the socks, see the special operations command and control element said charlie, MIKE continuation, and I was never remember over computer kind of getting a little bit of an argument with him saying: hey here's what we do in the seals. This means over ultimately talked about it with a couple of us there, the six of us that when the field so a boys, what it will do we think here is that this is what we have time. August through and everybody said, you know what it's let slip, let's just continuation. Let's not make this an issue. We all feel that threatened so someone

catch everyone up here, so you're in the field. You see this weapons transfer and your you do this you, you tell the story the book with with great detail in its an awesome story, but you're you're in the field you're doing reconnaissance You see this weapons transfer take place and it's easy go and it should be happy end. You actually get photographs of it and you push those up oversight, com which, but this is not like the movies. This is- is a legit effort to get that done in very good that you have real to pull that off. You get photographs of this weapons transfer taking place and then you send that up the chain of command and what the chain of command does is pushes a special forces group out to go inspect the area which clearly anyone with any of tactical sense is gonna. Go oh We just did a weapons transfer and now the? U s, military there there's someone watching, and so you're thought is ok ones the green raise go and inspect that site. We need to get the hell out of here, while you get told

by the chain of command. No you're, not leaving you're gonna stay eyes on, and this is where you have the discussion hold on a second. What do you mean stay here? So that's riyadh. So what's the decision, so we we stayed and then not a few hours later we were being actively hunted Biden. We counted nineteen armed individuals looking through this tree line and try to figure out where we were, and you know that we were set up with two obese observation posts and then one cp command post. So two six people in the field, two two and two I was in the command post with my my radio man and I did not have eyes on. I was back a bit and then there's in one of the command in one of the observation posts, Chad wilkinson, who you know rest in peace hero. You had Sarah wilkinson and another amazing american hero on your your show. Recently. Just you know one of my lifelong friends and basically

idiot back to me and said: hey boss, we gotta make a decision here where get where there's somebody coming down the tree line and we either need to you know, take them out or or fallback and I just said: listen: chad, here's the deal! If you take him out just Where are you? Are you know this? Eighteen, other people hunting us even more actively, but do whatever you think is right and I'm behind you and- and he ultimately with one other guy that he was with pulled back, took eyes off, didn't shoot and to this day I think that was one of the greatest decisions ever because we we, the six of us, got back together and then we just worked our way out of a really tricky problem. I remember two or three times having my weapon in hand coming off safe finger on the trigger with a like an albanian, you know, sergeant, if you will walking feet from me in saying, please don't let me have to shoot the sky, because it'll be a bad day and we win, we made it out. We ultimately made it up

yeah, and this is like I said, and it's hard for people to really in my behind, for you, comprehend. The sis is pre nine, eleven, so you're out there doing real operate actions before the war kicks off and get yourself in ship situations in learning a lot and really being pretty. pretty lucky in that situation. Frazier data, so you don't without deployment and then wouldn't what do you do next? Why green. You go to seal team six and, as you know, they to take only a handful of officers every year and I screen positive. I needed a comeback from deployment, couple weeks early to go to what they call green team and my committee. you said MIKE. You can't come home early, you can apply again next year and I just remember being so disappointed And- and I I came home- and I was like you know what forget this and I just don't see a future in the seals

me after this and an that's right around not that was literally the time when we started deploying again as to platoon going overseas innocent mike. I got a different job for you stay here. It's your ultimate the in charge of tissue seal and I hard decision to make, because I just wanted to go to to development grouping and be the best of the best And in those days like that's, where you went if you really wanted to, you know be in the mix, the regular teams weren't in the mix nearly as much- and I just ultimately you know like many times in life- don't don't over reacting in stay, calm and think about? What's the best thing in and to this day I am, I looked back at that decision is, as one might make, as is incredibly fortuitous, because my life would depend out. The way did so your nine eleven happened in all of us in the teams had way more work than we ever would have wanted, and so life works out. You don't always think it does

moment when you get really frustrated with a decision. That's not breaking your way, but when you zoom out over time, things usually work out where Were you in september? Eleventh happened? I was in the pull up bars. That's your team. Eight of a handful of us just do a command pity and just really just never forget them. All. So at this point, were you a task in a commander this? We are cows in charge to seal cartoons and we were in them in our work up. We want close to being deployed overseas, but like everything we risk gambling, and I actually remember that there were questions like who knows how to operate. Stinger missiles is when their planes in the sky, nobody knew what was going on in and we were getting ready to go arm basely, protect the ships and just homeland offence. If you will but it took so. We are not doing any that, but dad just watching on tv, just like everybody else, but but as you know, that that infamous day really change oliver,

And then where'd, you go on to point when you so now. Did you take that task in and on the planet? We did and dumb, and we went over to germany it at in europe and the european commission, and we were we were, we're really ready to go and didn't get put into the mix early on, so it was again a little bit disappointing and I said to myself what in the world I'm sitting here is a a task unit commander ready to serve the nation and we have forces at the ready but but we're in the wrong theatre her- and there was talk about every day- there is talk about pulling us from europe over you come over to scent com.

To help out. It didn't happen and again, I said all right. You know what, if this is the way that things are going to break, I applied for the the the pol mil fellowship the political military fellowship no seal had ever been picked for two years of fully funded grad school, and I said alright, I'm at the stage of life where I need to to think about other things, and I thought let me just put my name in the hat here and I was the lucky squirrel that was picked and I get two years of fully funded, grad school and then went to the gradual and cambridge mass fur for two years from three to five, so the whole early phase of the war. I was largely an observer when you does it I get asked often about this, especially from young seal leaders right now, because You know every seal joins didn't well. You hope that every seal joins the team, could they want to go to war and then there's no wars going on? How was it you're in a task unit. You gonna fully capable task unit. You

September eleventh has happened when, when is this deployment to you come like two thousand and one? so that would have been the one. It was a one. so you go on deployment o one. Oh two and I've got a bunch of hungary frogmen And you're sitting around in Europe sees accurate. What's the what Did you do to try and keep your your forces focused on the mission at hand? Perhaps yeah? That's a rough it was a rough one. I've had I've told many young seals that I was in the seal teams for thirteen years before I ever shot my weapon at the enemy, and you don't and all you can do is keep going, keep do work, workshops and keep going on employment katrina. That's the best thing you do is keep work. Ups, keep going on a planet, keep trying to get better and there nay screwball at some point tolerate

sir, you are you thinking, maybe once you get done with that deployment sounds like you're, also vienna, young frogmen, that's pretty pissed off and not going to war. You apply to go to school. You go up. You get are you think you're gonna get out after that are well known, as you know, our we're in her three or obligation. So at that point I had on our twelve or so years in, but I was like I I wanted to finish twenty years of the masters degree, and so the kennedy school government was a really good path in being the first seal for this programme. I thought great, I played a harvard business school and then the detail. It was like way. That's a little too far off the reservation. You can do a masters in public policy at the kennedy school and applied there in and got in. So that was some that that took me from three to five and then, as you, Well, what a deep burn in every seal's head is june. Twenty eighth, two thousand and five I had orders to seal team. Ten, all the guys on the other helicopter were all teammates from seal teammate and and I

overseas right away and took over for for Erik christensen- god rest him and and and basically took over for the guys who were in who weren't shot down on June twenty eight two thousand and five so. So that sweet, so that shot that that that should happened, but what he said. and you are the guy that goes then to team ten and you go on deployment and you take over for christians had already been attacked. You commander, and I was like so privilege to be able to do it again. I felt like my calling was to help all the guys who were on who lived through that who really had heart are really hard day. You write a book about some of the some of the things that you implemented too try and help guys out from, I guess, a psychological and spiritual perspective too.

It's a little talkers through that little bit, not only what you did but also age will give you the awareness. You know this is pretty early on in the war and you seem to be so he seemed somehow be instinctively or intuitively know that government needs help. Ya! Think look up! insane life. I just have varying levels of ignorance on everything and some things I'm a little less ignorant on, but this was definitely one of them that I in talking to the guys. I realized that this isn't a problem. We're going to solve alone can add your voice. Exam for them to those sweetie voice. Guy hurl here you know, and so I know what you're without know what you're not good at and know how to bring in teammates that that are are better at things than you and and and so we I asked to have a psychologist and a chaplain come out and took every. in the tuna seiners. Listen I've had one on one conversations with every single one of you you are.

Struggling with things, indifferent, different things and in different ways. I will never talk about any of our conversations with anybody else. It's not pub it's not for public knowledge, but but here's the deal. I want every single one of you to spend at least five minutes with a chaplain and five minutes with a psych. It's it was very counter cultural at the time at the time you know all we did was great up showing either strength or perceived strength in this was kind of like weakness in it could be perceived as weakness. Clearly not, but but in those days could be perceived as weakness and you don't. We at the you know the guys who would beat their chest and say no effing way. Am I talking to the chaplain and blah blah blah, and I was just like okay. The way to get through this is make everybody. Do it and there'll be no stigma for who did new, didn't talk and and and there wasn't a single person who didn't talk less than several hours to each of the psych and the chaplain? We had extend them there for a couple of weeks and in really, I think, set

the foundation for a couple of things number one is for each of those guys in their own lives of as they dealt with the post, traumatic stress of of doing the body, recoveries from the down helicopter and in putting their bodies in bags and bringing them home which which clearly isn't easy and just the extreme loss of of teammates and such it was the first real mass casualty that the seals had in a in the modern era, and so I I just felt like it was a no brainer to me to to bring in to bring in help, and then I ultimately, as I returned from that deployment, made a real push to get a psychologist on the staff and to begin the era of of really saying asking for help is a sign of strength, not weakness. Yeah. You definitely get some credit for some foresight there, because

yeah. That's that that a culture that we have in seal teams of like just suck it up and just deal with it and that's just the way it's going to be and for you to sort of see beyond that. That's definitely an that's an admirable move right. There were at war we're just here to help each other so you guys get done with that deployment and come home. And and now what do you do now, How are you, the ops offs routine, tenors you're? So this is the area where the ops officer at a team became a man o four, So I already been an an officer officers. No three: I became the ops officer as no force a hook. This is why my career but it was awesome. I just meant seal teams my whole life. I never did a boat unit tour. I never did suv tour. I just was is perfect storm of always seal team seal teams yielding so now

ops officer again, I already know how to do the job pretty decently. We in that's really oh five, all the way through late, o, seven which included a six month deployment, as as the deputy commander for sort of western on or would you know very well. I was, I think one. I was a couple months ass You is when I got there and dumb, and so just do you with some orientations. I got to get out to theatre a couple times during the work up for a month. We really aggressively augmenting guys forward as we recall so so you guys roll out too. I reckon two thousand seven you take your the team is gone. Deployment yeah was on spring of o seven and this is this: when Jason redmond's out with the guys redmond is when he got, he got wounded, the other guys with him got wounded and what was, at the point like from your perspective too, that's where all my it was night.

Tonight of stopping bad thing, people from doing bad things too, good people, you know we were literally like them, hours, one cycle of darkness operations as soon as the the the sun goes down. think about your you very your operation. Do you leave the fob at one thousand and thirty p dot m or one thousand one hundred and forty five p dot m looks like in you. Remember these days really well, but is one cycle darkness you get back before sunrise? You know you you lay down around six in the morning and you get back up at ten a m in your and repeat: it was a really high up tempo and insult of west. We had about, I want to say about fifteen or maybe eighteen cut out stations throughout, though on bar province, and so there is always something going on somewhere and I'll say. I was really fortunate to team tenant team. Seven came together, we so the ceiling

seven was the ceo of the the the avant bar and I was the deputy commander and you know really privileged just a quick aside, I one of my one of my favorite, most memorable, memorable buds instructors, mark Crampton, just beat the hell out of us and and and used to do, berm, sprints and and just would get out there and lead from the front, and I was just always so impressed with this man back in ninety three, when I went through, sitting on this deployment in two thousand seven marks the command mastered. She perceived him. Seven in one of my some of my greatest days were marking I strap. Hang going out on operations in literally the two of us. You know two guys who didn't have to go on the operations going out every third night and it was super meaningful for me, and that's why you know, as I visited Otto yesterday, one The way I started my work out was going to the very burma were were marked. To make us. Do those burma sprints in

I just had some quiet time all by myself and just you know spoken my head to mark and- and you know just pay a huge tribute to him just yesterday and made itself super effing, miserable and dumb, and I you know it's it's it's. This is. This is the weight that we all carry you know so, for those who don't mark mark died by suicide about three weeks ago, just before easter. This, a couple weeks ago, yeah guy that I never saw him without a smile on his face in how come you never saw him with a smile on his face with a great attitude, look and help everybody just adjust the odious, pure positivity and arm just shut shocking. I dont know how to explain it. Will you guys we got working with iraqis was every element out their work of iraqis. We were, but you know as well as I do. It were a lot of it was window dressing,

you, know, hey guys. We gotta start building these guys up. We gotta take nos six or twelve iraqis with us on the mission and it was early in the days of actual, we need a really committing to trying to build the iraqi army. We tried, we tried to build the iraqi army and we would take them out, and it was definitely that one of the biggest she was trying to work with the iraqi army, especially at that time in that's. Why was very was very rewarding when they pushed in the mozilla later in two thousand, you no seventeen eighteen. Nineteen and the iraqis did a lot of the fighting and they made incredible crisis which you know at the time. When, when I was there in two thousand sex, you you wouldn't anticipate them stepping many of them stepping up at all in others. If there was a few brave iraq soldiers for sure, but a lot of imbued think about their they're. Not gonna, be able to do this for themselves

Well, for us I mean so I I got sprint that diploma started. Nothing was march of oh seven, and I recalled the peak of the insurgency by using the metric of attacks on americans, which we know is a flawed metric when you have more. Americans are more attacks on americans but diem, but the there were the waiters to to kind of quantify. It is my first thirty days in theatre in fallujah we lost thirty five marines from the greater fallujah area. and come in so it was just night after night we didn't. We were in the real early innings of of being able to actually confidently take a lot of iraqis out on operations and let them take the risk for their own nation where'd. You bring back from that deployment for lessons learned. While that's a great question. I think the the main thing is sustained operations, the importance of of efficiency and making sure

well that's that and that you don't have seals or special forces doing things that don't take seals to do. You know when I grew up. There was a little bit of an attitude in and coming out of buds. That's like I'm a no you're, not you know, there's there's the seals and there's the non seals at the team, and I think that you know we live this way. Also the faster you learn that in integrated team is what it needs. What it takes to be successful, the faster your trajectories to success. These are things that weren't learned quite as quickly in the early days, but in that deployment, all of the younger guys that that were able to hand off you know the Iraqis d, the insurgents that they took off a target and them under somebody else to interrogate them and there's a lot of people that can ask questions and you don't have to be seen to have that skill or intelligence, analysts or whatever the case may be, and so I think we got really good at seeing. What's the part of the job Just takes a seal, did you what's that comparative advantages, and how do you hire people for everything else? Even

I tell this to leaders all the time. Do you should be doing things only you can do and if what else can do in leadership position? Let someone else do it and if there's no honest can do it, cool that's an indication that maybe she's our training. Someone do that. Other thing that you owe me at this time can do cause as long as you're. The only person I can do a job, yes, what you're be doing that job that that should be your goal, not to be doing the same thing forever and if you're, that job. That means you're looking down and instead of being able, look up and out and see, what the next horizons gonna be issue at the next markets going to be seen. get maneuver to those raul things. We need to look at you dont without deployment, and this is this when you went to the white house yeah finished three years. Scully run in pretty hard as the ecb, so so that the the ops austrian inflated up as the exile at yalta did you deploy again with the anti definite as the exile? I did not work.

Oh sorry, that was the erect clement. Ok gone down that we're out of women, so so I did too deployments. One is like the read out a grad school got in and then the echoes seal team erect deployment dumb. I saw come back and it didn't for for everybody. Listening we're really good about succession planning in the seals. You know you once you're in the seat a seat for two or three years, you're you're thinking how you have to get out your seat and make room for the nice guy, and we do this. Diversity tours. I was fortunate. My first diversity tour was near graduate school for two years in cambridge mass, and it was time- for me to get out of my chair as the xo, a seal team. Ten and I applied for the white house fellowship it's a non military program. It is a great leadership public service program. I threw a bus, they threw my name in the hat, it's quite an extensive application process and ultimately was picked that there are thousands of applicants that the nation picks fourteen to be white house fellows every year and I got placed it as the director for defense powers,

indian strategy for bush, so literally report to the national security adviser who reports to the president. Like day, seven, I'm running my first meetings in the white house situation room it like this. Who is lotta steep learning, walking pretending, like you know how to your way around washington dc on, like you, dumb team guy, your office and thrown into policy world, you got to be get in this job in the selection process. You got a cool thing in here that the talks about that a little bit. We back the book, my interview, sammy down and asked a bunch of question A bunch of introductory questions then stay me with intensity and said mike. What do you know? about the start treaty, I took a breath. Looked at him, said with deadpan seriousness. I know how to spell it honest, I don't know anything about our nations nuclear treaties not a bit, but what I did no- and I told them this too was how to get the right people into a room and how to run the decision making process. I knew how to figure

what motivated people, how to get them to generate ideas, how to cooperate and ultimately how to leave the room with the best possible outcome. I wasn't afraid to admit that I didn't know a thing about nuclear policy and I think that's what got me the job being humble enough to admit that being humble I have to admit what you dont know, but still confident enough to explain where you can add value is a balance that often hard to strike, but you need to I recognize that its strength, not a weakness, to know it's beyond your knowledge or understanding at any point in time, instead of pretending. Otherwise I walk. To any room and always assume the people in it are smarter than I am faster than I am and more agile than I am that way. can never be wrong, I never assume I have the idea. I have an idea, may It's the best one or maybe it's not but

Firstly, it should even matter because our job in any room is to find the best to answer for the problem or working on no matter who's answer it is we have to. to each other and really here each other and the best way to do. That is to walk into the room. Knowing there's no doubt that everyone in there has something useful to say so: that's you ended up with that job, by being this not by being the smartest guy about nuclear treaties, but by saying look. I don't know everything about that, but I can help make a decision in it's exactly what you talk about an extreme ownership. It's the exact same where we ve grown up in the seals and unjust espousing that, for sure. So you working at the one at the white house. So what's this job? What's the first job that you get when you, when you get there, as a white house what's the first job, while the white house fellowship is, has kind of like three legs. This as an active whitehouse fellow

you you're, wearing a suit to work every day. It's not! It's not a uniform job, and so the programme has places you in a full time job throughout the year and in People opt into a job. That's a little bit more a little bit more Fellow e, meaning you dont have really that many obligations you're there to learn. You just get to observe and, unlike you know, I want to really get the mix in. So I had opportunities at the department of commerce and opportunities and national security council, and so I thought you'd. Do I go deeper in something? I know national security? Do I gotta commerce and learn something new, and ultimately you can't pass up the the the role where you're gonna be in the west wing and be a just in them.

works with the nation's hardest problems, and so that do so is a with that. The fellows also get together, though a couple of times a week and you listen to cabinet secretaries, the vice president, the president and his and so on, and just ask them questions and you learn it's all off the record and fourteen fellows plus the president or fourteen dollars, plus the vice president and it's just a tremendous program but you're. Really. If you pick a job that that is real, a job with real responsibilities. It's a hard year when you will see the news now and I guess it's just like seeing like a movie about like a military movie, how you and I will watch a military movies. I got all that would never happen all that's what it always is. How is it for you now you look, you look at what is happening in the white house and you know all these inner workings of what's going on behind the scenes. What is it

give us a little glimpse of what it's like go on behind the scenes. Yeah. You know, I think the real thing that is not sexy is process but process, what accelerates outcomes and so on. think about it. There, seventeen acres of the white house, but it, but there are but Julian's of different decisions that need to be made, and so not everybody can bring their decision to the top of the house, and so at me, level. I ran a certain meeting in the in the in the way our situation room and it's it's simple. It's a binary, I'll call. You know with its either. We agree in which case national policies made or if not Then we we sought out what is one of the different stakeholders? Think what does department state or department, defence or energy, or the entire community thinking and in? Why can't we compromise, and so by definition, only the harder issues, our bubbling up to then a deputies committee meeting where the number two runs it again binary outcome at it:

these committee meeting they either agree and make policy or not, and then it becomes a principles. Committee meeting where you have the national security eyes or cheering it, and you ve got thus sec deaf, thus sexty the the number ones of all the departments and agencies around the table. Again, binary outcome agree or not, if a great great policy made, if not, that is going to the president. and so by definition, you ve created a system where you get volume flow, but only the, but only the hardest. Things are making it to the top sometimes it runs well sometimes that doesn't well, and so, as I sit back, I think about our things working. Are they working like they can or should it? decisions get made outside of that process. You use you, you actually diminish the probability, of the best possible decision getting made, because you know was I do it, if not everybody, so the tape When you make a decision, you ve kind of alien. A bunch of stakeholders and you dont get everybody rowing in the same direction. So that's

One of the ones that I look at at washington d c, and you know I I think sometimes we're we're waymore broken and which we should be, but our times I think odds its seem small? was mine, solve some the really hard as problems we will. We will not be proud of, and we have a lot to work on this in this nation what which meeting is it that you would run? You said however, all these meetings which, what which, when we, which level of meetings would would you run so every administration changes the name a little bit just because they need to put the their own stamp on on what it's called. But a policy coordinating committee was what what it was called in: the bush administration as an example, a pc. I think it was a fine I'm ready to be half of that, but for the three three letter acronym that was, you know something that changes but but but but the point I'd be the head of the table and you'd have basically assistant secretary level, people or no roughly two three star starfish generals from the from the department of defense. You know just whoever the stake

Was for the particular issue, some people from under secretary defence in the policy shop sitting there and and look. I must not trying to glorify myself or be the present the fan club, I'm a guy who ran the process. But the thing is: that's that's the role. If you can run the process really will then it makes the nation run well known in. You know I have been often asked- do a little bit of a segway here but have as we got out of afghanistan. What went wrong the thing that went wrong was policy process broke down. Who are we bringing home? We didn't have a question and answer to that question. and so that caused a lot of chaos and a little a lot of people rush to an airport hoping to get onto a plot of flight. You know so anyways that that's just one example of how policy though, the engine and the machine should work, may hours a day or you workin about. I was long hours that was, I gotta get in it. I always get my work out in the morning. I honestly gather your seven thirty, seven o clock some regret, but them, but if it was home at ten o clock on a lot and I

and then a lot of times you paying attention to the black burial. Did myself oh seven or eight no nine timeframe and dumb in fact, I remember very well one day at three in the morning the blackberry just buzzing nonstop, which usually didn't wake me up, but it did this night and that's where the guy captain, richard phillips, got got taken, hide it was hijacked on the merest alabama and then I can. I called a front of me chris domestic, who was at at at at team sex and said: hey man, a million layers between you and me, but you gotta, go start looking at this right now and in a year, hours later, I'm in my suit in the basement of the pentagon in the nmc, see the national military command center and just trying to work the problem and and ultimately ran. I ran that whole thing from the the the national security council and one of the cooler things was running these meetings in your prison,

Obama would walk walking there's only, but only about four five. Six of us kind of running this. This sum this situation and when it was nothing was done. President obama wrote a really nice note on white house station arch stationary mike great job on the somalia situation, you made a family very happy at easter brok. Jack yeah is critical. yeah, you have low little section here. I was pretty cool talking about that too, This is going down you get these! You get these two texts or whatever the blackberries buzzing you called the pentagon in a once, our admiral, whose on duty told me that his guidance was not to prepare any options to deal with the situation responded with something. I said. Only twice in my two years in my position at the national security council quote sir: please this as direction from the white house. End quote. I told them that the department defence needed to prepare military options to rescue the crew and keep the pirate captors from selling captain phillips two hours.

Bob or another terrorist organisation. The we question I said to the admiral: How fast can you have options back to the national security council by the afternoon, my biggest worry had become real. The pirates had left putting the crew put the crew out of danger, but they had taken captain films with them and were holding came hostage on a lifeboat heading towards shore. Fortunately, by that the department of defense had done what it does best and was giving the national security council and the president real options to address a really hard problem. My friend my scott commander of the entire taskforce, a being lloyd for the mission and Chris, a leader of the tackle response itself arrived on seeing halfway around the globe and a matter of hours after the mission was launched. They averted a crisis on Easter sunday as they shot three pirates with three rounds in the dark night, while both their ship and the pirates lifeboat rocked up and down. the swells of the open ocean, Scott Chris,

snipers, where the true heroes of that day, it's no different. Phaser buds, you, member one, we're thinking. We were word or told think about what can go wrong when your mission think forward we're all the things that can happen. So like. I was anybody special in the white house. I was just doing I grew up within the the seal teams. The the same thing you or any other seal leader would have done, which is hey. This can actually go bad enough. How can go bad and working to prepare for the worst case, not the best case? Have you been doing You did you see a museum and for peace for not lately, but for but I have that they have the lifeboat their yeah. You know that my I've longer himself but yeah yeah, that's pretty awesome. Pretty osama group do pray, awesome stuff. There. So that's it! So that's this white house, fellow position and utes. That's an interesting. go and from george w bush to Barack obama would you know,

but those two leaders. First of all, great governors of people and great leaders in different ways. I d The press has a certain view in a certain lens on things having been on the inside others. It's really obvious statement, but just don't believe everything you see read. So that was another great ceta lessons that would, what came out that two years in Washington dc for me, though, when us fellowship whistle suppose only be a year, but after that cabin philips thing President obama said hey: can you stay my whole administration sources? wait a second year in and continued in my role, but you know the. Really at the end of the day. It was about about c. in administration in year seven and a half is a lot different than administration in minute one, and so people can, about all the right and left for sure that can there's theirs. Of course, policy differ

It is not as many a national security ironically once you get briefed up and you really like in the tea that the tests top secret, sensitive corpsman information of like what happening in the world politics. Actually, causes the the opinions to narrow a good bit, because there's only so many solutions to the national security problems, but the the thing, I would say, is setting I'd right and left issues. It's really in in energy? You know, you're seeing the third or fourth person in the role at your seven and a half of an administration and you're, seeing somebody else on minute. One who's got incredible: energy and are just happy to be there- happy to be there- They might, I know where the light switches are for the first few weeks, but it but it's, but that's the beauty of the the permanent staff that that kind of works as part of the institution and indecent and avoid phone. You know people complain, but nothing ever changes.

some positivity two things being hard to change in our government would you say, that's an accurate assessment agree one hundred percent like I don't want the government to be at the whim of whoever's in charge to just whip it one way or the other I think our nations forefathers made it easy to kind of bump down the the highway, but not to get off the road. awesome heresy. You wrap that up and in while you're there is this, when you figure out that you're going to go to seal team two as the ceo, it is- and you know it's handling afghanistan policy as well, and scott moore was the detail or the scot that you just referred to in the in the previous past. and he said he might guarantee that you're going to take over seal team two. Can you get yourself out of the white house like we can't pull you out like you're, the only one who's going to have to you know an intercourse after two years I was a dude. I was ready for my next challenge and I ultimately got permission to leave and- and I said that I've got a great opportunity of an- and I knew I'd be deploying back to afghanistan because

as you well know, the nash, the naval special warfare community doesn't frequently get real estate to own, and so we had southeastern afghanistan and- and it was a great opportunity to not just take a seal team overseas but to integrate a bunch of young green brazen. Which of you knows you know infantry from the army and just every single aspect of of what the what the nations department of defense really is. There was what a huge, what a huge step for the community. Yes, I was talking to Emma birds and and those guys that had the sort of vision that we should be deploying in that in that even with the idea that we should be deploying like that, like as a c team ceo deploying overseas, like that, was those guys came came up with this idea and, and thankfully they came up with it before september. They It wasn't there. Yet enemy was member vision. Two thousand like I did. I was them trying to form you. this idea, but the others,

an example of how well that actually worked the opportunities that were there, so so awesome ahead exciting, as a commander vasil team to be able to bring your whole team overseas to one till one effort and into make of meaningful impact. I mean for do so. Everybody knows for pretty much for the entire history the seal deems it was going to be. These enthusiasm platoon go in here. Maybe a couple tunes go in there and was what they did in vietnam is like one or two petitions at a time deploying the sealed. Commander was packing Coronado or back and virginia beaten. They were just kind. watching and and then to have this idea that actually a seal team, the whole team should be able to deploy and then the team should be able to take on other assets and utilise those assets. I mean we're gonna, be very thankful for those senior leaders that came up with that plan for sure totally agree and

I would say that you were you you're. Definitely a benefactor of those things couldn't be, couldn't be more accurate, so so should have so you shop at a team. Osier was your attitude coming back to the team all fired up, man to till I get out of the white house in wearing a suit every day. For two years I was ready for some sand and surf zone. You show up- and the work up. Anything particular that you guys focused on during the work up. Well, we need, of course, knowing weeds, benefit to also know you're really preparing for afghanistan in you. You get to not prepare for a bunch of different things in, and so we minimized, I say this, but we we minimize, diving. We had to make hard decisions like we're, not going to be diving in afghanistan. Let's not go, spend three weeks. Diving, it just doesn't make sense and And yes, it kind of moved us away from our roots a little bit, but that was that was that's. What commanders do as you make the those types of decision, so for me. I was really moved when I

when overseas owing to afghanistan to spend a couple weeks out, peter early on in command, and you know I was there when we lost three seals and how copter crash out in Zabul province and, of course, terrible terrible incident? You know being there really left of serious mark. On me. I mean, of course, in I'd, been exposed to everything already in my career, but when you really feel that you feel that you are the owner of the risk of the whole team, it's a different view. There's a guy I used to think when I was second in charge of a seal team that wouldn't really be that different to be overall in charge. I couldn't have been more wrong, so when I win a senior leadership team from from seal team to did our best reconnaissance. If you will, we came home when I met a back where I ll never forget

there was a young man who was blown up in an id who was really just being flown to germany just so he could pass away in germany next to his wife. He was in a coma and and I'll never forget, like a you, know, six or eight hour flight, just spending it. Next to this whole guide to some of my I'm talking talk any and just some army trooper, who I don't even don't even know his name, but like when you really around that it. I got back to the states and I I I already worked hard, but I worked. We give really stepped up the like. This is real, like I will bring all my guys home an and and will do everything we can He asked them those we we experience, echoing Getting to remedy like as soon as we get there. There's there's soldier marines get killed just about every day and an you'd go to those services whenever we could, but it was out of the gate. We were debating. Two three serves in a row and it's a wake up,

old everybody to the recognition of what the one on out there battlefield every single day, which would you you could hear it going on. You could seek on you, could see. Vehicles too could see guys get cancer backed out here. in blood running whenever we could give blood like just that, have you reality is going to be scenarios. You guys. You guys finish your work up. You you go on at that. Pre deployment, How you got your platoon europe, your team, over there, you haughty, never mind just opportunist. I got the whole team and it's not just your team that you got as f guys you ve got. You got an entire like force here it's, like from the book you, you had a little bit of a rough relationship with the with the conventional come andrew that was there,

initially with the one who was right next to me in turn. Count this guy just didn't, want to get out and put his force at to go. Do great things, and you know as well as I do use you just don't respect people don't want to do their job. So that being said, you're here determined and you're gonna go make things happen. You got some. You got your. You got your pal tunes, your teams Your forces still out there still get after it, but You gotta know when it's time to not get after it, got to know when it's time to push back, you got a nothing here. That's a really good lesson. It's a really good lesson, and you do this in the book you counter to the time would win the major told you in Kosovo. Was about to stay out in the field.

and you go. You know what we're just going to stay out in the field like he told us. You know we'll we'll that that seems like the right call right now, there's a little bit different here and going to the book. To ensure civilian casualties where's limit is possible and that the innocent act and civilians wouldn't turn against our forces. The mill, Terry set up a policy called boots on the ground battle, damage assessment. This meant that after Every bomb we dropped. We were, we were required to physic, We go to the site to confirm that no civilians have been killed. The theory a smart theory was that knowing we would have to acknowledge civilian casualties would make it less likely that there would be any civilian casualties. A talented of army green berries within my command had television at one point that their work- proximately, ten Taliban members gathered together, at three in the morning in an area no civilian would ever go and certainly not at that time. The team

used surveillance techniques to view the site, and we knew as a certainty There were no civilians there. They, asked me for permission to drop a bomb from an unmanned aircraft, following the decision making process I'd put in place. I granted it they went ahead and eight The taliban fighters were killed and be colonel from the commanding general staff in afghanistan called and asked my watch officer for our media report and my watch offshore explained that we didn't have one that it was sent. We too much risk for not a good enough reason. The road to the site was too dangerous to travel and we knew there were no civilians present and ask anyone on my team to go down this isolated path in the middle of the night was unnecessary risk, their lives and one made no sense to take got on the phone with the colonel and we went back and forth. This is the policy. But the policy in this case makes no sense to achieve

already know now come. I will not take unnecessary risk that my men will die there. Consequences in the mill military for not following the orders of a superior, true is the lack of organizational flexibility is a huge problem for the military on the ground. We were living a never agile enough kind of life, but in terms of the larger hierarchy, the structure had its weaknesses. I could have been found and sent home from the appointment as an insubordinate, but in that moment I couldn't, I could just blindly follow the policy. I had to act consistently with my values and good judgment and subsequent decision that I was going to be able to live with. If the worst happened, but colonel said,

that, since I wouldn't comply, he was going to report my non compliance to his boss, the commanding general in afghanistan, and that he would ask his peer in charge of our afghan partner force to order his men to unilaterally inspect the site. Instead, urged him not to do that, but Decision was out of my hands: twelve, Afghan soldiers drove down that isolated road in three vehicles to make their assessment of the bomb cite. The first You trucks hidden, I d and three of the eight people in those two vehicles were killed with other seriously wounded sooner. I flew by helicopter to the station, where the green rate during team was stationed, sat with them and told them how incredibly proud. I wasn't there amazing bravery there workable work. They did night after dangerous night. It was one of the more emotional moments in my life.

started. Our meeting. Silence fell over the room and one of the guys on the team opened by looking me square in the eyes and quietly but resolutely thanking me. He knew, the easier decision would have keeping to the pressure from above and deviating from my beliefs. and we all knew that would have some of the men in this room would have died. The green I had no idea that his words made my throat almost close as I choked up and how hard I had to fight off cheers Simply overwhelmed by the real life impact by the reality of the situation. The overwhelming magnitude of these kind of decisions made under the pressure of intense nightly combat, take a tall on people that difficult to understand for those who haven't experienced it now the benefit of several years of hindsight and time to fully reflect on those past events, I haven't even even great belief in the importance of process. Your own process and values based decision making

process can knowing. adoration, save people's lives here A point I like to bring up in situations like this is if you're, no leadership position and some below you in the chain of command, is real. using to do something or pushing back that hard. You should probably listen to them and the situation in one as I was reading this as soon as I saw you know it go to oh he's, gonna order, someone else's just was. I already knew the outcome, I know you're not pushing back for no reason pushing back for good reason,

it'd be hard for people to understand that kind of pressure that you're under that kind of concede, and and just go with what you're being told to do. There's times in life, you gotta just put it on the table and say be ready for the outcome be ready to be fired. You you, you always your pick your battles. This was unquestionably one of them, and this is why you are in command, and this is why this is everything that you've trained to do at that point in life is for that is for a moment like that. to have confidence in yourself. They are that you're right and not take that unnecessary risk. I still get you know emotional. As you are reading it. I haven't. I sit back, I can mary tat don t feel sick. in that room in the site, It's me looking at all these guys and and really knowing that that me, having the backbone saved several of their lives and not not be able look at which guy wasn't there area, which I know it would have been, but it's just the weight of combat gets.

really hard overtime and dumb in theirs. Certain moments like that were you to save yourself. This shit is real. How long was its that was ten months? That's a long appointed for seals, yet is what was there was worse? where we correcting a deployment cycle or something like that was at one of those things what happened? We were just trying to stretch our forces more get more out of the forces. We had so lengthen it out a bit and dumb, and then you could put more people on the battlefield in that it was not more complicated than that. Sometimes s w had a kind of make adjustments and extend some wanted caught, someone short, but it wasn't that we're just trying to know it was it was a align with the you know, there were aligned with the command leadership structure for the joint special operations, joint special operations, task force throughout afghanistan

There were five different regions. If you will sigh was southeast, but there was also obviously south and west into and in that Is the cycle that the that the special operations community was on, and so, if the seals wanted to you know, play the game and have the the battlespace you just had to acquiesce and do the ten months you can't get off cycle with the rest of the rest of the force, but yet decisions like that very frequently and in literally life and death. What was your kind of battle rhythm, your your personal about over them during that deployment like one what? What time are you going to sleep? What time you waking up or is there any rhythm Jocko I had no rhythm. You know I had a red light in my ceiling that was anytime there was, it was a tick troops in contact. My my bedroom was about thirty yards sprint down this, like you, know, plywood palace kind of hallway to get to the the the the operation center, they the antithesis,

the talk in Iraq's act that you talked about the beginning. You know we had the route we had, the plasma tvs and the terrain, mapping and unmanned aerial vehicle feeds in everything, and then you know you, you would just get the the calls that you know you you'd here the the crazy machine gun fire coming in over the over the satellite radio and you'd. Here, one of your your keys, leaders whose voices you know immediately, even other not seeing their name on the on the on the sack on radio and Just call me saying what they need is under five hundred pounds. Atm dropped like yes, today on this particular location and anna- and I was the one to make the decisions on when we drop bombs and when we didn't and when operations we went on what we didn't and so because I had on a nose roughly twenty five different out stations throughout the southeast. And sometimes literally, I think, than five six seven different elements in a ticket. A time I was I was just. I was just on

If you were you the approval for air, I was the approval for Yup yasser you're busy yeah. It was I mean we, I dunno. I don't think I've ever said this number publicly, but it's it's not. You know a secret, but we had over eleven hundred If the ground drops over ten months and I'm proud to say, we didn't harm anybody, we shouldn't harm. There were times that we that we said no, it wasn't a lot, but but but the mostly the leadership in the field knew when not to ask for something, but occasionally there were times it came up when I said no and I just wasn't comfortable or something and So the the the other thing that's interesting when you are asked about the battle rhythm, though, is that it was also important to me to go out on some, the operations with the guys, and I we go out quite as frequently as I did in iraq, but I still got out maybe once a week or something like that- and I didn't do that in the beginning of the deployment, because I wanted to the the staff to kind of see the judge, the judgment, the decision making etc, but I had an incredible exo rocky russell.

And who, I would add, is soup supreme confidence in so I'd I'd go out on an operation and be with the the can commandos in a seal opportune for another day. Dan have two days at times, and that's that's. A tough decision also be as soon as you swing and go on one operation with one unit Do you don't know the what's happening with the other twenty four, so that takes an element of my confidence and trust of course, as you know, it makes you a better leader because it helps you understand and maintain perspective and, frankly, just to share the same risk is the guys you know and as a whatever form fifty one now as a forty one issue year old seal team commander. You know that deployment we got shot out and rocketed in the eye of a cut one of my guys legs off on that deployment in them,

whenever there was somebody in an id who who was blown up and we had a mass casualty situation, and so you know it was, it was a we had, you know doctors, but they were busy, and you know I was kind of under it wasn't like. I did it on my own, the doctor kind of said: hey, okay, do this, do this? Do this and cut this and you know, go in and because it was a, it was an all hands on deck kind of thing in the in our in our in our head court. Is that the way it was kind of like the mash unit? If you will you know? Oh so you had, you had casualties come into your location, yep and it was mass casualty yeah. It was

yeah, and so you were there friggin. There were like scrubbed up getting it getting it. I don't even think we scrubbed it. I mean we, we we, you know we we did a. I don't remember perfectly, but I just remember we Didn'T- and I I met this guy at the helicopter, who had three tourniquets on and one of them was had come loose and yet arterial bleeding coming thrown from the middle of his leg. That was missing and I had to you, know, region and hold pressure on arterial, bleeder and taken from the helicopter and get them all the way into the get him all the way into the medical unit, and there was another guy who was, I mean, blown up beyond recognition, but I mean I knew who was, of course, but I mean it was just it was really really bad and and and then it was just there only a handful of seals in the in the the the headquarters at the moment, and you know that the tit the tick was gone, and so it was that was taken care of, and so it was just all hands on deck and in dealing with the medical situation, and that was one night.

There were several nights where we had an overwhelming number of of of people who were shot up or blown off that we were taking care of, but somehow you from your seal team from seal team two, you guys made it through that deployment without losing any one. No one was killed in action yeah, any other any other thing to wrap up on that deployment. I I think it's really the main it really is the inexplicable pace and and dedication that our entire fo entire department of defense has is, is really remarkable. You know it's, it's you. You just get humbled every day to see how people working in the austere conditions in both seals and green brazen and non seals non green brace out in these hinterlands? Literally,

not showering for months on. And only eating the food that helicopters drop into them and just really putting country and others before self. I just was constantly humbled to to to to be part of an organization with such great great americans, so you get home from that deployment and come to go to the book here. I'd been home from Afghanistan just for you too few weeks when I found that my replacement as commander of the special task taskforce who, taken over my team finished when my in finnish disappointment had decided. Take his own life shooting himself with his pistol in his room in the bed. I slept for the previous ten months. I was shocked and devastated. He

we're good friends, former roommates buds class it's. Twenty years earlier, we have come up the ranks together. for we each got married and started our families. We shared a house and virginia beach for three years. We re separable in those days. we had bonded over a mutual frustration at the pull a bar during buds training. One saturday morning after we'd, both failed the day. Before to come anywhere close to matching the fifteen to twenty polyps. Our fellow trainees were able to do. We decide go find a pull a bar to practice on far away from the buds compound where no one would stumble upon us, despite a few might sleep, we are still struggling as we fought as we each fought through our fourth I can still see his face and here the chuckle in his voice ass. He turned to me and said world finest. right here he was loyal, genuine A man who could find humour in absolutely anything.

Another time and training. We were so called on a boat ride back to the compound, after an icy swim that we found ourselves fighting over where to place one rubber fin. That was shielding very small parts of us from the forty not wins there. We were too grown, notes: seal trainees fighting over tiny rubber fin to help make us a tiny bit warmer, and we and just a little drop less miserable. We, for a moment. I realized what we are fighting over and we both just broke out in hysterical after it like we were always laughing back. Then. when I was deployed he would check in my family and when he the point I would check on his, I would say that I trusted him with my life, except that it was so much more than that. As seals, we have no choice but to trust everyone on team with our life every minute of every day on the battlefield, when you bond with someone: it's not

much about trusting them with your life. It's about wanting them to be there in the trenches with you feeling better. Because you know they're right alongside you use much more than a fellow seal. He was a friend a teammate above either a shining example of the brain? three, a human being can exhibit man. You know you you talk about the pressure and the pace and the and the battle rhythm or lack of rhythm and alive at stake, and it's

It's it's hard to describe what that feels like. And it's hard to its hoarded. It's hard to describe what a fool like her. I guess is all I can say, but man this was. This was just a travesty in a shock to have the the commander on the ground, who taking your place, someone you grew up within the team somebody I was a team to with I mean just friggin good. Could mug.

It's it's so hard to understand. Yeah this one hurt they all hurt. Some of them hit closer to home than others. You know, as as I know, you've experienced too, and you know this is. This is the thing I was talking about and not describing well enough before, but it's the it's the weight that people carry. It's the it's the not not always knowing the weight that people care and uh yeah. That was a tough one. For me, you talk a little bit in the book. You know I mean. Obviously we all have the we all go through the year. What could I, on differently. Maybe I could have said there are seen not done. This are done that is there anything as you look back? Is there any

did you have any indication and you get a turnover. I was looking on looking at there's a there's, an article in the new york times about this in theirs it there's a theirs. Situation that you describe in the book, where I guess, local afghans had gifted you, some kind of a you know ceremonial head garment of some kind and he was with you and they kind of ceremony. We gave him as well the same thing in and it's it's it's Have you seen this? I'm sure you have but there's two you write about that in the book and there's a picture and in the new york times of of you in that there's of when that happened. For me, was very tough to look as I read it and I imagined it, and you know that that I've been. I go on the new york times and reading this article and I think others the picture theirs. exactly what microsoft about is there anything that you look at that you think We need to do a better job of looking out out for you,

was I mean, let's start that with me right, I think that you know we ve grown up, saying: look. We can always go blame the world at everything, but we guys, like you and me groups, starting with ourselves and say what could I have done better? And so when I look back at this point geller situation. I recall very vividly on a friday afternoon, two o clock in the afternoon, or so at a team, picking up the red line in trying to turn to dial him and just check on him. Immissio is doing and the there was a new policy where you needed a four digit pin or something like that, and I was like all the comms guys have already gone home. I'm not going to bug them on a friday afternoon and make them make my phone work I'll just call call overseas on monday, Well, that's saturday is one when he took his own life and I sometimes look back and say that I did. I did I do enough, and I certainly russell with that and dumb It leads me to a lesson that I talk about, which is not

being intrusive as a bad thing. You know it's it's a good thing to be intrusive in people's lives and to ask the question of like He really having. How are you really doing? Have were considered. Harm to self is a hard question to ask it's a little bit embarrassing, sometimes to ask it. But take. Ninety nine, embarrassing for the one. Yes, I miss that here and I won't miss that again and and since then, since that happened, I've had plenty of yeses where I've been able to step in and help. I certainly wish I could help more. In the past when you guys we're doing a turn over the turnover I'm interested to so everyone understands this is like this, the commander of the team the command of team, but also the turn over. This is for lack of a better word. This is like the most intimate intellect the exchange of know how, with another human being in your life, hey I've been on the ground, I've been fighting these troops we've been.

War amity. you everything I can to help you do the job. I mean this is as close as you're gonna intellect we transfer information between two people and then plus that you guys are brothers from buds I mean as you're doing this as it is there any there's, nothing, there's no You know, jocko have never said this publicly. The just one shred of little thing when I play back in my mind, you know we didn't lose any americans, and in my last you know fashion with the leadership, I celebrated that buddy, incoming team was also there and, in my friend, told me aside afterwards and said: hey that was really rough for us to set the bar to expect that we're not gonna lose anybody and dumb, and it turns out there that the leader from the east coast, seal teams had also pulled my

decide and said: hey, listen, just do the same thing might did just bring everybody home and he had law. four guys in his first month, and so I think that pressure of losing people in in you know it's it's it just it didn't. It didn't add up. So I mean, I don't say, that's the cause, but it's certainly unquestionably a contributor, yeah some error? I actually remember turning over with the guys that took on frozen romani night. I told them well because I had lost guys. I'm like a loser. I remember thinking of am I going to say this. Yes, I am you you're gonna take casualties like there's a hundred percent chance. You're gonna take ass. These there's a one percent certainty that unit casualties and talk to guys since then that were in that group that task into that relieved us day when they were like that was the wake up call for them was holy. Shit like we

We got the seal team commander of the task unit telling us we are one hundred per cent certain going to take casualties and yeah, but all you can do is look at wakeup calls as fuel for improvement in the future yeah right and that's how we know both of us live our lives. This way now, as we do, carry inexplicable weight in it, so we're just here to make everybody else's lives better and and what do we? How do we make the the families who have borne the cost lighter and better, and how do we help the nation better? Learning from the things that we've learned or you want one of the really heartbreaking things in the book. The you write about was you're you're, going to a guess, reported. kaliko team. Now

home omf on post deployment leave, but but in in virginia beach and so being such a family friend we were, we were, of course you know. We were when some of the few in the house yeah and you're talking about on your way to let you know his wife and his family? No one had happened, you you, you called us, I child psychologist and you you asda. Do we tell his daughter now the truth of what happened, or do we wait till she's older, so she can better understand and psychologists says you have no choice but to tell the truth now, tough stuff, I mean I'll, never forget being in the house with my wife and daughter and I mean this merits a super quick story. It's you know when I was overseas.

Where's their family was checking on my wife and daughter, and one of the things before I came home. It was that my daughter made a deployment box that had ten months worth of note cards written out to her friend my my friend's daughter and They said things like when you miss your dad go into his closet, take out a shirt of his put it on and pretend it's a hug. You know notes like that say: here's how you're going to get through the deployment and so and you know just a month later or so. me being there and seeing the deployment boxes she had told me about which you're my wife nor I gave her the direction it will do that those her all entirely on our own, and sometimes you know that the kids in the wise and the spouses never get enough credit for. First

long as they are, but being in that room and I'll still never forget her screams. No, he said he'd come home and and then more importantly, like my daughter being there and and consoling her friend, who had just lost her dad at Caesar. These are weighty things. Man makes you grow up fast. How much longer after that did you decide you're going to you're going to retire. I was really close at that point. those weighing it pros and cons in my head. That's not what influence me in any way. I am I made that I actually frankly can recall if it was

how soon after that, I made the decision, but you know it all to mately was about continuing to make a difference in and I was out. I was at your twenty and not be commanding officer of a team. I just felt like there's so much more to do in life and while it's awesome to be a seal- and I already been privileged to run meetings in the situation room in like what am I going to do like another six years and return to attend the meetings that I've already run, you know so I was like. Let me just pivot and go, spend a chapter of my life in the in the private sector, which I'm ten years into now and have been really fortunate and learned a ton and and at some point in my life, all return in some capacity to serve this nation and and I'm not sure what what form or fashion that will take. I really have no idea. I just know that, when you're open to service it will find you and the ways we serve

are they genuinely doing things like writing books and trying to make a difference for goals to our communities and and just continuing to to elevate the conversation? How was your transition when you retired I? I know people asked me that time that question a lot and- and I always give the advice of like hey. When you get out, you need a new mission, because you, you ve been on mission of soup hyper, focused on this one thing for your whole life forever from out of freakin put your web gear together in the most efficient way, your magazines on the right place for an off and draw like all those little things that we are focused on for twenty years, and then you get you go. up through the ranks were now you folks on. How can we fail to do this better? How can my task to do this better for you it's? How can I do better for my team? I gotta better support them and then one day in one day You clean out your locker you're, a civilian And I was still guys haven't you got to find a new mission and it sounds like you got on mission, pretty quick one

You got out. Did you did you already have that the jury If the job set up when you retired yeah, I I did. I was again. I've been very fortunate because I had exposure that that few people are privileged to have whether it was the white house fellows program or two years of of a of a pretty reputable graduate school and so you know I I I didn't know what I would do when I made the decision to retire, but I I had a lot of conversations to draw to go, find that thing. A great men tours and um in, ultimately, you know had had offers it at goldman sachs in a jiffy, morgan and bridgewater. The hedge fund, where I ultimately went good good, really good friend of mine, Dave Mccormick, who actually just rent for senate in pennsylvania, lose in the bush administration in the treasury. While I was at the national security council but David, a good, really good, humour,

and really good friend and just ask him for some advice in dumb in it. He ultimately created another option that I wasn't trying to create night jumped into two bridgewater with him and in a couple of other, really great leaders and learned it on there, and that was my first chapter, so look at it, it's really it can spook. When you look in the rearview mirror with transition, you can say: oh that must have been really easy, no way man. It's super frickin hard like cause, we're all enters the teams, were we're not like we're. Not letting life just happen to us. We're planning life and this is an element of time when you're like it takes patients took for the planned to come together. It's not like you can plan harder and create things to happen in twelve hours in a man of about it, a lot of things, but patience is definitely one of my weeks. Weak spots You have this, this section, which they got a wraps up, some transition here,

you say this. I hear the question all the time. How did you manage to move from the military to the government of the private sector when those arenas arenas are so different from each other? my answer is the premise, the challenge or challenge. The premise of this question, of course, difference different details, different specific, but the truth is, in my experience, all heist: Ex organizations and all high stakes decisions are pretty much the same, The concrete knowledge you need is the easy part. Anyone can learn that, but the details, don't matter, we don't have the right process? do have the right process. You can go anywhere, it Strong leaders are able to jump from one industry to another one. Organization to another. So that's what you did applied here, your decision making process you're, lessons learned from the military, you brought them to the government after I guess, and then to the the civilian sector. He d bridgewater for a few years

and then you ended up actually entering the another business right with with cognizant yup, and then all that experience I well first Bridgewater phenomenal place for years. It is, it is a a crucible of of of talent that is all trying to be more talented and do great things in in markets and and and ultimately how to manage the company so that they can out perform in markets, and the mission is We simply to figure out what's going on in the world and how to how to capitalize on that, for for their own investors, united in police retirements and teacher retirements in you know sovereign wealth funds, and things like that. So I, like mission of figure out what's going on in the world right, it is a large they really. I was so that they do quite well there Bridgewater very well and in numb, and so but it but after. You know four years or so three have for years. I was ready to pay

it s a really good friend of mine started a company called cognizant. He spun them out of done in Bradstreet twenty five at the time twenty five years ago, in which one of us just prior and then they had an activist investor, take a billion six position in the stock and start agitating and- and I just called them and said, hey man, here's what you need to be thinking about just this this and this, and that the other thing- and it might just come help me come help me run the column and I was like I'd- never been in a large public company and hours ago I bet on myself. This is risky, I'm not sure I'm going to be great at this, but I'm going to go figure it out in it. It's what you just read in the book. In and honestly, I think I did very well. erin in I've. Continued to you know give it and I'm I'm now running global operations and transformation and security and real state, etc. For for be where it's a large software company, in with with very public news right now about a potential acquisition or an acquisition, again very

look knowledge and envy amours an awesome organization in so many different ways and in just bringing this exact skill set, if you will to vienna. But with some of the knowledge that you that I've learned along the way the ten years? So it's a combination of specific now but also the the man. Jim skill of seeing forests and trees, but definitely both yeah, we been my company conference and work with them where we work with VM, where a decent amount, but the funny thing is for me. The first time I worked with them was tellin him hey. I used to kill vietnam, where stuff in the field and hook it up to my satellite radio and make coms and they were. British token. I got a good veteran community. There really have the anywhere so awesome company. Will you know- and I forgot to mention the I know that the team incredibly highly of your in an echelon fronts, leadership in and instruction in

motivation and inspiration. Everything that you are that you, a spouse, has made a huge positive impact on people, and whenever that that finished up, he was about a week ago. Some like one of them, was the most recently by we go. I got eat meat, we'll email, saying hey this guy's awesome everything from like people who know that we know each other and others like hey you ever heard of this willing guy, you know yeah yeah, I heard of him ronaldo that going on in the civilian sector that that chief digital transformation officer, at me. In the meantime, you know you mentioned giving back and you are giving back and one of the things that you that you do which is incredible, is book that we've been reading through today, this book, which is called never enough and you've, taken all the profits from this book. All the profits from this book and you are very specifically giving the profits to gold, star families and, very specifically in

to pay off their mortgages, and this is You home ownership is. not only the american dream It's also the american nightmare, when you ve got a mortgage to pay. Oh, you don't have a place to leave or free. If that comes under pressure, there's just there's just you know Your home is your castle and so this idea, and I'm not sure quite how you can't before I came to conclusion the way I just spoke through, which is listen, If there's anything, we could give a gold star family. The best thing we can give them in terms of security and peace. of mind is to say: hey, you can you don't have to worry about where you're gonna live forever and if that's what you're doing with this and that's funny I was asking you will like- is their website, we can put out anything you like. No, it's not it's. It's your ear, you didn't want to spend money on a website you're like a hundred percent it all. To buy me,

houses for goes our families- and I personally know some of the people that you ve done this for He and I can't imagine a better give to give a gold star family, then the peace of mind of shares. is for you to live in security for rest, your life how'd you get to that. How'd you get to that goal thanks for sharing that, I really appreciate that cuz. That is really you know. Multiple goals with never enough one is to elevate the conversation, but a very, very tangible one is to literally pay off mortgages like you described, and just from, first hand the situations where the government doesn't really cover nearly as much as as you would expect in in a situation where there's somebody killed in action or who dies by suicide, and I just felt like there's a gap in the community. There's plenty of fishing trips in in mental health. That looked like all very, very good things, but the most fundamental thing is for these families not to feel the pain

sure of needing to move from the communities that have hugged them for the previous one or fifteen years of their lives and two, if you to you. And being a gold star widow. All of a sudden, I'm not that any None of them make that choice. Nobody wants that title and and being pressured to leave your community like this, unfathomable, the mead, and so I just really was fired up that with that, we don't do more, and so at this point we very very confidentially paid off six mortgages I'm gonna drive to do more and ultimately alleviate this burden for four really every one of these families that has experienced this, and I wish we could wave a magic wand and do all of em all at once, but look it's it some! It's it's really. What drives me in one of the ways that that I try to norman, that I am giving back and if people want to help that cause of israel simple, go and buy this book. That's that's all you help this guy.

a look where you get awesome lessons. Can we get some cool stories? Yes, you will but Will you be able to help out these votes, our families so freakin outstanding, you're. Also you're also involve the national medal of honor museum, so certain Let's go on without yeah great. We cordova museum that the nation hasn't built so about four years. I got asked to give somebody some advice. There was something that was a small local effort in south carolina. Long story short. They had. This person asked me to join the board. I said you know like all of us are. Too busy. Don't have time, excuse blah blah blah blah blah and on it and then personal reasons. After sharing a story back and forth, I said: ok, you ve got me I'll join the board on one condition we get to fire everybody. On the board. In order to make the single national we raised this point a hundred and sixty five million dollars. We ve got about sixty million more to go. We brought it took us three years, but we worked through

cept to city selection, near city offered us governors, island and washington DC offered us a spot them all that we ultimately did a big off between those plus denver in Arlington texas, we chose Arlington Texas were building the museum right next to eighty anti stadium. We ve got an incredible board. We ve got all of the ex presidents, with the exception of of president trump, mostly from a timing. Perspective were were worm. We have great mom This is irreversible at this point, of course, not surprisingly, the the ceo of the museum is my swim. Buddy that we've talked about Chris Cassidy he's a phenomenal american. You know seal astronaut and now ceo of this museum, and what we're really doing with this is we're on a mission to inspire america. We will. We will take the lesson is that the medal of honor recipients have that that they espouse the character, the values etc. In talk about that, to make the nation greater

The vision is for your some young kid to see the brits levinsky in what he did and learning his character and values, or you must Britain aim and replace it with any recipient and say how do I know I'm seeing this little third, situation great situation developer a girl being bullied on the schoolyard. How do I step in and go make the situation right. That is what we want to stop that or school shootings or or or having the bravery, the courage to step in during school, shooting in and stop the shooting, happening or just to make the meagre asian, stronger and better in the press. Is really too spire america. We will open bout a year and a half what we haven't took completely determined our opening date, but this will be one of the nation's, if not the I should say, the the premier museum for the nation that will tell the stories of the roughly thirty five hundred recipients and sixty four living recipients, many of them, many of whom you personally no and in just get their store.

Other pyramids of that's just awesome. I mean just the idea of giving people examples to read about and to be introduced to that they can following their footsteps at least be inspired by and an analysis, That's just phenomenal. it'd be a while ago, maybe a couple of years. I guess it was maybe a year and a half two years ago, you you a cage, shot me a text, hey, you know infor ceo of this of this, the medal of honor museum- if you know anybody, let me know nausicaa rack my brain a little bit my idea. We couldn't give you I couldn't have given you a candidate. Is chris Cassidy so yeah? That's that's. That's an awesome guy to to to take to to take the lead on that, and so did did they start construction already? Yes,

Was that when you were you doing the groundbreaking ceremony when we were both? Yes, this past wednesday missed each other in the hotel by whatever an hour or something march, twenty fifth isn't congressional medal of honor day. That's the day we broke ground. We had president bush. We had just we, we had to do all seventeen or eighteen of the living recipients there and yes, that's when we we came like in its from linking up with each other. Well, that's all some does that bring us up. Today. on your life right now, yeah softly I mean look out. Life is busy. I can't sit still just like you can't it's all about giving back and in a really do appreciate for everybody out. There does not pushing never enough. I I am promise you it's disappoint. It's it's not been extreme ownership and therefore you can buy it a lot cheaper on Amis, hockin and his evil, but really deuce do appreciate that great support and if people people

I knew you have a website which is, this is my case: dot com. You have instagram, which is this is dot. My case, you have two or which is this is my gaze and facebook, the real my case, yeah? It's I dunno about you. Social media was formed me about a year ago, but you know it's like laika. The discomfort leaning into discomfort is a it's. It's part of the new, the new us yeah. It's it's definitely a very strange thing to go from zero social media and also being anti social media which we were absolutely had to be. Would you kill me but yeah was, I guess, was a combination. It was. It was leaf. Baboons, wife jenna, who is like you gotta, get on social media Michael No, I think life labour imitates me now. You know what I'm like. No, we don't need it not doing it. Jamie who who's the sea of one

I companies is like you should really do this, I'm like, I don't think we need to, and then TIM ferriss who said dude you better get on twitter or you're an idiot. I was like alright a bunch of people that are telling me to do this- will what's real. I have to say I was really funny is, of course I follow you and when you show the four zero for thirty make. Ups keep saying to myself, I'm going to get the exact same watch and set it for one minute earlier than you and take my picture and just show that my mom a minute earlier than you every single morning, but I just haven't, had the energy to actually pull it off. Yeah. There's there's been some campaigns on that. I know Andes them for awhile was he forget if use waking up earlier or use doing something, something like that. There's also a whole host of people that that you know shoulder their their watch at ten forty two in front of a box of doughnuts and said: you know just got after it but yeah. So that's where people could find you echo. You got any questions, oh yeah, real, quick to know the fellowship program or your job at the white house. How often do you see

the president. It depends on what role you're in the fellows get together a couple times during the year with the president in and have less candid off the record conversations and then, if you're, in a role like I was at the national security council? Sometimes it was three times a week and that it be a month without seeing the president. So little bit vary depending on what was going on in the world. That's not rush rousing easy one that's true softball for the high and inside fastened mercosur things. This is exactly what I also reform. Take it easy for me. Let us wonder: awesome, my in closing thoughts now just extreme appreciation. I think that's, maybe the next extreme appreciation, besides extreme ownership, but just so I appreciate you in and in all of our are community in the nation for helping elevate, the converse, nation and just recognising that while we

were in the service were ultimately all here to serve each other in a takes, a different forms and fashions and adjust encourage people to get off the sideline and serve in whatever way makes the most sense too, to everybody listening and just great appreciation for being here, jack odin really dumb special day for me to be able to be set shocking when we go from you, water, polo and killing each other or you killing me in the pool and then this many years later, seeing where we both our life. It's it's fun, the crazy, well speaking, a service thanks for years, service to the country nation to the teams for what you for what you ve done in your past and for what you're doing today, not the civilian sector, but more important for what you're doing today to take care of the families of our fallen teammates. So

thanks for coming out man. Sorry, it took us a while to get this together but appreciate it man, all good brother. It's my pleasure. Thank you, jack with egg yolk, charles and with that my case has left the building eco charles answer key takeaways. We got quit the one key, takeaways kind of a reminder, something that I guess yeah yeah. I guess you talk about this, but anyway he said on occasions. Process can save lives in the process, because it's one of those things where I'm personally, I think I'd fall victim to this. A lot of the time where I kind of having for lack of a better turn. We're, like you know that I don't have any many. I guess I do have some processes in place, but sometimes for this. I can get distracted from their resources on, went to take joint warfare dude.

that's gonna, have all the processes for all thing for sure, but I get distracted from the process kind of ease. even though I know that if I stick to the process, the chances of success go way up exponentially, and I think that's kind of like that. I think about myself and I think how, generally speaking this can be the case where, if you allow that to happen like would it be because of stress because of you know just whatever kind of destruction or whatever that's that's how it works. Where, if you just stick to the process, you can keep it out of a lot of trouble, even in like hectic kind of situation, and the dichotomy is sometimes you gotta go outside the process can be flexible. You know it's cool People literally say think outside the box. So ya know- we witnessed slaves. the process and window year make an adjustment yeah like the process can be somewhat flexible but

process is the process for a reason. It's like okay, so think of it in terms of like jujitsu, for example like when things start to get it. You know, let's say I'm rolling with you, and you know you start turning up the heat on me all of a sudden, for whatever reason this going on you in your head, I can't get all panicky started going off natural instinct. I gotta stick to the technique. Same thing, sure I can turn on my urgency, but I stick to the process, which is the technique to good idea. Stick to what you've learned like stuff. That's that's a version of the yup, but there is also a situation where you might do something: that's against the process, lava Jeffrey glove, Terrific level will do some wild things yeah, but is there not? It was then again I can read just my butt I will say this: stop the creative stuff that he does is all within the realm of jujitsu. That he's either learned or experiment, though it now, because nowhere, Did you just say, like? Oh turn, your back? No,

it to say that anyone. Well that's my say it now. I would say this and I'm not seeing you're wrong necessarily, but this is what what about pete, the greek going for rest, solid that okay, so let's hold that still digit to the cause? What I'm saying so this I was telling to focus on the rest. I put it this way they're not or do some wrestler. They don't do that once said that they don't do that because they get distracted or taken out of their game. They do that. Internally as part of the game. The and outside the process, though, is on, say maybe that is within their. Jesus, maybe their private telling you like that, will know. There's no process in jujitsu. Seven years ago. That said, hey turn your back on the persons on the person there's. No, no one Do you predict Jeffrey glover? Just did it. I know you can't read just fine or pete the greek or anyone for that matter, but would you say yes or no? Would you say that turning his back done out of creativity? Do you think that's part of his process?

I didn't say it wasn't part of his process as a part of the process It's, as you said, trust the process. What I'm saying is: okay, your process, and how about that? You can trust your process. If there's a process in place, I'm saying, if there's a process in place, good trust it yep to a significant degree too. Ok, now what I'm well, I know what I mean. We can see what I mean Jesus, I'm saying: don't get distracted, meaning dont gone like if you- start going. All crazy. Heart is a beneficial for me to involuntarily glock, raising our back like that's kind of qualifiers, either like involuntarily. It was like the well you're making, let's face it, you make me get off specifical ear with his and others. The reform process in the democratic process right off no point or now right on the oak, trying to just I'm trying to address the breast.

this myself and you try to make a point, I'm trying not to ridicule if you're. Yes, there is process, that's where we have sent out operating procedures bright and you gotta stay within those stand rapidly. Procedures to your point, a lot of the ties, but you can't get stuck in to work complain. See distraction panic. These are all things that can make you deviate from the process and then, which kind of those long to my secondary thing take away it, which is how you guys volume say this lot, all the time to sixteen com really making it a point to stay calm, which kind of can be ruled out to the process, not only that part of the process, potentially it helps use dictum switch.

so we're sticking to the process. Speaking a stick into the process, get yourself a subscription to joint warfare. Let's say supercrew yeah, okay, so the process is where we're meant and here's the thing to do is important. Follow me so in life life process, no matter if you're, no matter what your job career, whatever you have certain things in life- that if you do stick to don't get distracted, complacent or panic about these things are going to benefit you in life, not only exponentially indefinitely working out reading and getting smarter and keeping an open mind doing jujitsu doing jujitsu as part of the game for sure. So when you workout get yourself some supplements to help you

yup working outside easy all the time. Not only can you help you work out, it can help you keep working out because, let's face it, you can get jammed up. Yes, you can so the process is worked out, eat good, take relevant supplements and I decided relevant because that's something that's not nothing. Some people take your eleven supplements, in my opinion, take relevant supplements. You stick to that process you're on the right track, there you go jackal dot com, get yourself some of those relevant supplements. You're. Not would you call the other something irrelevant not irrelevant supplements? You didn't vary too much on your vocabulary. When relevant, irrelevant whether it is right that we talk about effective, ineffective, you're, doing the same thing: it's cool authorized you staying with the process, jacko fuel dot com. You can check it out! Y Y, you get the drinks by the way. This is pro. we're saying right now. Not all new flavors coming not only new flavors, but old, flavors Let's face it.

Some people didn't like that much we read a all and I'll. Tell you what amazing now- and I don't say that lately this isn't like you won't find me in the passing o. Try this it tastes. Try are try. Joggled discipline go drink, it tastes! Amazing! You wouldn't hear me say that before cause, it wouldn't be true. It is good and maybe to me some of them taste pretty amazing, but I wasn't thrown up like blanket statement, blanket statement right now, the new drinks taste amazing and that's a bold statement but I'm making it reformulated so check those out there I do it in the stores right now, so that, as the the old drinks run out the new two common in so there a way to tell we ve alliance, the origin of a year. You will be in like a month, but

We have to use up the old cancer, the old cans right now, starting maybe like this week. The old cans have the new She'd eat them, but how do we know- and they know you don't know your taste to experience when you taste and you're like damn drago, wasn't lying about that taste. Amazing that that's what you're going to get got silver check out those check it out a while watching the vitamin shop local shops got all this stuff too. So there you still some of that. I saw me down at the fukushima at the factory. I saw the video video we gave in you saw me the factory origin, usa, dot com making stuff in america the is quality the best gear, its. What you need pair genes in inverted, is where you gonna get em origin. Are you gonna get him from someplace that utilizes slave labour? I would prefer not to have what you don't. Don't you, I don't have to anywhere is correct, origins, say dot com, its sovereignty,

Where did it feels good? That's a weird thing right: it's a weird Kenneth Kennedy have a have a feeling- yeah, yes, sir it isn't a nice when it feels good. Yes, and you can now focused on the digital part of that experience not allow me discomfort of yogi guy, the third man in the in the match, yeah. It's you against your opponent and against your sherry, old geena against now it's you and your game I guess you're gonna have to wear this old crappy gaed. It's already bothering you grew up to do the key on your side, still get the gear your site, that's my message. Origin, usa, dot com. For some of that stupid, Also, when you on the path you represent represent jacques restored outcomes, can view t shirt, hoodies, light and heavy by the way, not superbly will say right, that is in them, your labour member. There are more people that acquire these lightweight duties, the more and more good feedback I get from them.

There are such things as light hooty environments and whether concur that little bit of I have a little thing called the shirt locker. Okay recently we be getting heavy positive feedback from the shirt locker design. So what it is is, if you don't know which most people do, but if you don't. new shirt, new shirt design every month subscription automatically comes to you, they're creative, I guess for lack of better term, but yes, very good, positive feedback in Allen so check that one out at chaco store. If you, when I get home. If you want we a cool shirt to wear that, not many people who have cause you know you know sometimes like someone got a girl goes out to apart and there's another girl there and there were in the same dress. Yosemite drama is german, whereas my daughter's we'll call it. You know that is this t worry a tt notoriety, its tee. T is a meme of like someone drinking tea and sore like drama. You can say that's tee

not call up. No, no, no you don't you know here. Like me, you haven't got the correlation between tee in joint comes from a meme, where when's drinking tea. Signature of america, yes cover the frogs drinking tea and its represents drama. Ok, Show me you may be right, but may be the rule, So her my problem is drinking tea. Yet he said it'll, all the meme will always say something something something, but that's none of my business they're drinking drinking tea soda. So you will get let's say or what group is this millennial notes lower than Lenny what's not lower, but when I was younger, the millennium ethical z Genesee, I think we're they'll say oh and they want to Tell me, the gossip usa tell me that bt. Do you not notice? I? This is news to me? Yes, okay, ops, and I did not know that that shit- that's new, that's good cool cool!

so you go there. You are the t, get a good teacher, alright, heiresses same girl, shelter body in somebody's when the same idea there wasn t for you, did this drama right, So when you get, we win your predecessor, locker knowledge shown up the shape same teacher. Does you well actually to end they do you kind of like that, you're gonna, down naughty Well, here's the thing, it's kind of cool, the the scenario with my girl over the small country. When you do that, you show me it seems your locker t, shirt and you're like what let's go over this nation start planning plotting, know that so technically, the the female drama when there's the same outfit in the same location is opposite with males

Is it okay? That's like the thing this way you carry when you show up when you're wearing the same t shirt like this bump, yeah yeah, you will bro out like candy. Very good deal Dave same deal, show up with the same t shirt, I'm telling if you went to okay, if you went locate you're wearing this, you know no matter what you're wearing you go somewhere and someone These were the same thing. You don't feel like all your way. You can, if you it's a positive, things, seem saint chuckling sociological expert over there, either, where the word short logger, shirts jaw, chocolate, store, stuff, no exception and feel that comrade Subject: NEO nazis speaking a subscribes shroud of the park gas, don't worry, illogical, underground dot com The support over there don't about the youtube to channel, If you want to see some some just really sort of award winning assistant directing happening, common check out some of my aid be activities. Its growth Actually, this new stuff on there on youtube like this,

top then review like some kind of one off videos, the pretty solid, top when, on the other, I put some underground clips on their today. For the people just really can get. little new. What's going on sounds things are important. They are that they need to know the celts, subject that out psychopath go warfare on mp3 platforms, footsore camus, dakota, Meyer speaking, a medal of honor recipients to go to mars water recipient he's bad ass, his funny as hell. have conversations sometimes with corner where we're laughings are neither one of us can talk. This is rare, He also has a company called flipside canvas, can restore calm report cool stuff to hang on your while searching also calling on you all to myself from dakota meyer books pay. First, never enough by my case check that book book out, listen, the profits for that book. All profits, gotta gostar families. So, get the book and all the lessons learnt. Yes, I recall stories. Yes will

how help gold star families. Yes, you will so check out that book. All only right for the living by Holly mackay check out that book. If you want to know What was going on in iraq and syria. Then I got a bunch books. It I've written. check those out as well. I have a leadership. Consultancy called echelon front where we teach leadership to companies and leadership, is how you solve problems inside of organizations survey to help their go to ashes, front dotcom we get, we got monster. Coming up, there's like a couple more seats left. I don't even know if I should say anything cause it might be sold out by now. If you want to come to the monster garage, l'enfant, dot com, the next one is june fifteen through the seventeenth denver colorado. I know it's late, but if you want to come common check it out, we also have an online training academy if you want to learn how to lead.

You don't necessarily have to leave your office, your house, you can learn to lead online. He cannot just learn lead. Others possess now what it's all about? Some of its about that someone's about have led yourself good decisions for you have to be on the path so check out extreme ownership, dot com for that And if you want to help some service members, active and retired, U I help them get medical treatments that they might need. That, though, from it doesn't pay for, for whatever reason, there's a bunch of reasons why they might not pay for it check out america mighty warriors dot. Org, that's molly organization mark these mom check that out also remember rose and horses dot, org mica think up there in the wilderness, taken loud on horses and letting them array learn how to live so check. That out and

once again, don't forget about never enough and helping out gold star families do not have to worry about a mile. Judge or a place or a house or a home or a castle cause. That's all my ex given him. So that's awesome and if you want to find my case on social media, this he's at this is my case- could find him on instagram twitter facebook also echoes on there, I'm on there that goes out of control on that jocko willink, hey man, when you get there just just watch out cuz you all the algorithms get up on you thanks once again to my case, for joining us and for your service and sacrifice for our great nation appreciate you come about and thanks to the rest of our selfless military members out there right now on the front lines, protecting us and protecting our way.

Life and cannot take it for granted. Tat really easy to take it for granted. It's really easy, but we're not taking it for granted here. Also fight. to our service, the service of our police and law enforcement, firefighters, paramedics, ie and tease dispatchers correctional officers, border patrols secret serves all the first responders that are out there doing the same thing sacrificing to protect us here at home. Thank you and everyone else. You know, you know You know. Sometimes you been on the grind for awhile right, the grind you been working, you been stayin focused home alive and its some

Well, maybe you feel like you're there, like you got there like you paid, but that's good time when you feel like that. That's a good time to remember that that's not enough It's never enough. We can all do a little more