This is Jacko part guess number three. Forty eight with echo charles and me java, willing good evening echo good evening. we are turning our society upside down, one committee rooms, officer told the news we reporter. In the weeks after the revolution, the people of panama pen, will grow rice, he said and almost as an afterthought added, they will work or starve. By early may nineteen. Seventy five, the khmer rouge were implementing one of the most radical political plans of the twentieth century, a peasant revolution with a punitive edge buddhist monk were made to plough fields. Pagodas were turned into killing centres. Chair muslims. A religious minority were forced, fed pork, Cambodia's national library was converted into a pigsty in pol pot's democratic, kampuchea,

Books were used to start fires, it was more about revenge recalled one cambodian all private property. Even money was abolished in this ultra great leap forward The early accounts of life under the khmer rouge came from cambodian refugees who escaped to thailand at first. They sounded too bizarre to be true, as if george orwell had written them to satirize life under a dictatorship of the proletariat a place where parents, their children and civilians were slaughtered in numbers and for reasons unimagined since Stalin's. Purges or hitler's third reich survive, Rivers described a system of slave labour com. You where men, women and children toiled like human water buffalo under the watchful eye of the mysterious and all powerful leadership cabal known only as

anger, they lived in perpetual fear The cia held little hope for america's former allies and educated cambodians quote situations are reported widespread and in may cases, members of the entire for family of former government officials or so Mergers are executed along with the heads of the family. Almost all Executions occur in the same manner said. communist cadres beat the person to death, with how handles or other blunt instruments. End quote. Not only did the career rouge eliminate family life, they made sex before marriage, a capital offense. come here, ruse survivor, Yuki Chan, remembered watching too young lovers, beaten to death in front of his entire commune. In a larger sense, the calm your rouge were threatened by all

expressions of love between husband and wife, parents and children, friends, Colleagues observes Elizabeth Becker. One khmer ruse survivors still haunted by his mother's final words. You have to learn how to live. Without me, Lange earth. Can khmer rouge minister of culture and social affairs stated quote only children, can purely serve the revolution and eliminate reaction ism, since they are young, obedient, loyal and active and quote so that right there is a little excerpt from a book called facing death in Cambodia, by a man named Peter Maguire,

and peters, also written about the nuremberg trials about the treatment of war criminals, but the focus is not always been. On war or genocide,. He actually has a pretty significant dichotomy in his life. Peter Maguire grew up a surfer in southern california that lead to chasing thee mythical endless summer that many surfers pursue any funded that chase by drug smuggling Eventually, he left that life for academia, where he received his doctorate in history along the way he became a jujitsu practitioner he's. historian and offer a defence contractor college professor and he's lived,

extremely multi faceted life, and it is a privilege to have Peter maguire here with us tonight to share some his experiences and some of his lessons learnt what thank you for having thanks for coming out. I guess- how did you and I originally connect surfers journal I interviewed, but how did you Did you just reach out somehow through Ivan, I think, through Ivan matter, so even trent bizarre, is a business former seal and the three and I knew about Ivan trent. Well, when I got to My first point it has. On the first point, I went to guam and I walk in too like the headquarters area, and there is a picture hanging.

in the wall of a guy dropping in on a giant wave, big, hawaiian wave and it's signed. You know it says you know some cool quote Ivan Trent and I'm like hmm, that's interesting. Well, it's buzzy, transit kid and buzzy. Buzzy trent is one of the iconic guys that opened up big wave surfing for the world and his son was a seal. And so you didn't article about I. How did you know Ivan? I knew who I've and through the combat rescue boat, that I did with george green and so Ivan our fathers surf together men. You know malibu in the fifty and so yes, Oh, I reached out dive Ivan and he was our greatest to help and a true ally, and we became great friends and I stayed with him in virginia beach whenever I went there,

have to do to jitsu with his son on over on the carpet. I think his son, my train here and then is also our dog, which, my leg so Ivan as trawlers. That's ok negative dichotomy, their legal ass. Well, let lit let's get into it on and let's go through a kind of how you ended up here, because you have been on a wild ride, I mean that relatively speedier lies, but a wild ride, so you're born in nineteen. Sixty four tell us about your tells me: mom and dad. My mother was one of the first. Screen writers in in hollywood, joan tewkesbury she wrote robber, outlines nashville. Among other things. She was actually the ostrich and mary martens peter pan on broadway. She was a child kind of shirley temple in hollywood group in hollywood and my

Father the son of a famous pilot Robert Maguire, who ran, aberrations magic carpet and operations, alibaba flying yemen nights in concentration, camp survivors to Israel. So at fourteen, my father was a mechanic's assistant in TEL Aviv airport. He was flying missions with my grandfather. He was flying at fourteen and, I think, wasn't dc threes, but was one of those big silver. Why? How did that? How did that happen? My grandfather was a pilot and world war two and then alaskan airlines was hired to to resettle Jews in Israel, sir

oh, that's originally how he got involved, but then alaskan airways pulled out and he set up a company called far eastern air transport and flew a remarkable number of hours in a short amount of time and Ben garee and call them the irish moses and the last chapter of ugly on europe is exodus is called the king crab king, and that was my grandfather who lived at rincon right at the indicator and so so my dad was a real wild guy. He died about a year ago and he so you know he gets goes to tel Aviv, his mother, their parents or divorce. She finds out that being raised by wolves in the middle east, so they send him to a fancy french boarding school. He said this is your that my dad and so then he gets to the cops.

What's your dad's mom realises that you're kidding you that your dad is a federal child, exactly what he thinks, I'm running missions and says where you get him the hell out of their yeah gonna, take him and sent him to a french boarding, school yeah, and so they send him there and the french couple that was supposed to be taken care of him the money and ran, and so Oh he and an older kind of french nobleman whose parents have been killed in the holocaust said it's not tell anybody. And so they basically ran away and spent the better part of a year riding. bikes around France. knowing the niece going to the hookers going to the harsh bank and nanny move to california. After that, and there was no hope for southern california, and so he became one of the biggest star real estate developers in los angeles. He built ply vista and much of the sky line and they called him the cap with ten

wives, and so it was a boom or bust life like you know, up one day and then a kids were moving and you're goin back to public school. So in my dna, I knew the the thing that couldn't be taken away from me was an education. I knew there would be no inheritance, nothing and he went public in. I think two thousand eight two thousand nine had billion dollars cash and then that it all on black and basically bought the blackstone groups real estate portfolio, two weeks before the sub prime crisis and lost at all, and so he passed away about a year ago and I inherited feel acids.

And so that's what you do yeah, but he was a classic guy. You know, and and- and so you know are just big things were expected of you. As a kid I mean my grandpa had that we always had boats and if Ventura my grandpa lived in the venture keys and if ventura harbor was closing out well, that was a good day to take out the boat like, let's punch through yeah yeah and like so was not anything out of the ordinary for me, and so when I first took my job, I got my Phd colombia. My phd adviser was brigadier. General Telford tailor the chief prosecutor at nuremberg and I had friends who had set up a nonprofit to collect the photographs taken at tool, slang, prison the commemoration, central torture and execution facility. Roughly twenty thousand went in roughly twenty survived every one got there

sure taken, so they were preserving the negatives and the photographic record. At that time, khmer rouge was still a major force to be reckoned with, so this is what this is need three. Ninety four! So I go there and early ninety four. And it's very volatile, the? U n has this incredibly absurd occupation where they treat the you know neutrality is. The sacred principle suits the it's the you model that goes wrong in the nineties, so, the committee rouge or allow you know are allowed to run in the election there treated. You know, there's no accountability. There's you know, canaries killed. roughly in a we think, two million out of ten million years ago, a quarter of the population of the ilo in three years. Ten months, twenty days most two of them- you know with the with an ox, cart a handle, the actual to the back of the head.

and no accountability when the Irish falls in early. Seventy nine tie land, china, singapore, the? U s, all back them, and so then pol pot at our become for Adam fighters, and so is such as to bizarre. You could make it up, and so there is absolutely no accountability. And I knew from my nuremberg researches the only thing in that kind of situation and unresolved com. like still fighting going on, is historical accountability, is preserving the empirical evidence of the crimes, so thou very important to me also was building

the chains of command from the bloodstained butcher, who's, usually the scapegoat. It's easy to to try lynndie england. Are these kind of people and of the garden variety you know sort of a perpetrator but to move up to the chant the food chain like they did at nuremberg to get the shot, callers. Policymakers! That's why I was more interested in the senior leaders, and so that was Michael. I also wanted to link them to their their masters, the chinese government, because you know this was a chinese sponsored affair. There were chinese advisers throughout Cambodia during the khmer rouge years and the chinese have never cop to it and they still we didn't support,

if the bad policies- and you know- and they I was there when germaine came for the first time and we went to the press conference and- and one of my friends from the wall street journal said what about accountability? What do you say that cambodians and and he just started screaming at him and went no and stormed off the podium? And what was this a different kind of? conference and I've ever been to so that was my initial, for I was you know with these photographs. Finding the survivors, but then I was able to find the perpetrators, and I worked with a pretty remarkable guy named sock sin. Who was he said, I'm I'm remarkable survivor any I used the weapon of the mouth. and I said how did you survive the khmer rouge? She goes. I worked harder than any man and I sang revolutionary songs louder than any man

yeah so socks in was a rough guy, and I he you know star, it. As a petty cab driver and one of the guards at the hotel, that was the fancy hotel. The press state would whip him with the chain because you'd be too aggressive. So the chain that blocked the driveway he'd whipped socks in with so every time sucks and got a new car. He would pull it up to that same guard, who'd been there for twenty. Here's guarding that gate, haunt the horn and way about him and so on socks and taught me a lot about cambodia, probably just driving around with them. I learned as much as you know.

and then he would see two young lovers on a motorcycle and- and he was like, I cannot look and I'd say why he goes. He goes. I miss that I I didn't get that in my life, like too painful too painful, and it was just amazing what those people went through and you know one of my students, a professor named now named so Paul ear. His parents were sort of elite cambo, and they pushed their mercedes out cause a commercial came in April, seventeen nineteen, seventy five they set over just leaving for a little while the american bombers are coming in. Oh just so their pushing their mercedes right and one of the kids get separated, never see them again and then the father dies. The men always die. The women survive the cambodian, and kept that society together very similarly how the the southern women did after the civil war and but much more extreme anyway. They

go to one of those horrible rice gulags, where you know their barely given enough calories to survive and they announce okay. any vietnamese we're going to allow, but you have to take this vietnamese language exam. You fail examine die, and so she had had vietnamese maids, so they coached her gotta vietnamese backup to speak. She passed the eggs, so now they go to a refugee camp in vietnam. She finds a phone book and I don't know how starts dialing numbers in paris gets a sponsor. They family gets to go to paris,

she works as a seamstress. Then she finds out. She is a relative in San jose or oakland. They come to the united states. She makes sure that she gets a fake address in the best school district in san francisco makes her kids take the bus two hours each way. Every one of us kids today doktor Phd in those are the immigrants we want. right now. No, we just we just we just did another podcast, and we we're talking up talking about some vietnam. Vietnamese immigrants that came over after the war it had gotten out and it was the same story for all of them. They'd all worked so hard yeah and all their kids ended up. Just you know, doctors. You know nears just the whole nine yards in the cause. Education was so highly valued for them after they were

to get out of vietnam and, after you know, basically everyone that they knew that state back was murdered. Oh yeah, awful just awful what how that? How that unfolded? Let let's rewind a little bit: we cut our jump straight into cambodia, but you took a strange path to get to camp. yeah so you're born in nineteen sixty four yeah, that's We cool call time to be grown up and you grew up where it in malibu bowed pacific palace, yes, santa Monica, can, So this is like nineteen year what? What? What time you start how old were you knew started going down a malibu by yourself and surfing all day, which first must at all times will we had a house in carpentaria and then my grandpa lives at risk. So we were going to santa Barbara, pretty much like on the rincon little point there and the sinner block quality indicator and that time at george greenow, always about ten,

there's all, and so I had a charmed life. I could go serve to bixby ranch and drive in and the channel islands and I had very charmed I was, I was a privilege kid and and you know, a I lived in the colony as a very little kid than we moved away, but I still new all those guys. So then I lifeguard it in malaga colony, which was quite a who quite an experience. We were bad, so this is now this says now what the seventies wanting! When did you graduate from high school? Eighty, three these three and I was start like you, I'm going to malibu with older guys, smoking weed in the back of a pick up. You know probably thirteen. What kind of music were you listening to let's applin and cream, and now that the euro is some eagles but yeah and dumb

But we were ban and we were like free range children. All our parents were divorced very permissive time. I mean there was especially in malaga bizarre like One of our friends mothers had a primal scream room that you like, walk through a giant vagina fitted. And just bizarre who has ever where, for I have experienced this word rough. You go not familiar, you go in this room and you scream new, let it all out and and then there was the you know there was there was some or if cheese in this kind of stuff? So what are your parents doing at this point, like my mom was making her way in hollywood and my dad were they together know they died who you live and where I lived with my mom till I was about ten. and then she knew I needed a dad and put me with my dad. My dad was art, ass I was bad end and he

He had a thing where he would wake you up at five in the morning and then he'd say come downstairs. We need to talk, die and he was always the throw away and all the union stuff in allay success. He owned all the buildings, so what he did with labour was how the strictly, how the strikes, when everything into use decided with labour, and so he would sit down and he would just inventory the litany of your sins. They use. Thank you. You thought you were getting away with everything right and, it was so startling and and then he would just handed okay this. Yet this address you need to be down there tomorrow morning. Five and it was the air f c. I o local three hundred zero she's get some yeah union hall And so he made me work as a union labour on the high rises, but little did he know my my you know this was the punishment job and it was a graveyard shift eleven night to six in the morning

but I worked with all darrell strawberries, family so my marijuana empire expanded exponentially because back then the there was great There was green pot in the winter and brown part in the summer, and you know and tie, and there your city ala couldn't get any of no one dared. You know, no white boys dared go down there, and so I did and I go down. I go to venice because I knew some guys from the venice gangs throughout lennox and then I would go down the Crenshaw area with skies and I write about that in my book thai stick and then yeah and then I got I got busted when I was nineteen so hold on search, So it seems like your dad. I mean you, your dad owns all these buildings. What what? What did you do? You? You had to have looked at that, even as it fifteen sixteen seventeen year old and said: hey man, my dad's doing all right. I can probably

you're out some kind of a livelihood by working with my dad, but how you end up getting in the pot business. I thought oh, no Just did it was easy. It was right in front of me the, you know the surfers controlled the high and marijuana trade, and so particularly the thai trade, and so I mean eroded hi! Stick that the arrival of the time marijuana fleet marked the beginning of summer, so the older surfers that I looked up to, and I would see these guys flying scorpion bay. I first saw scorpion bad thing: it seventy nine and it guys on the lamb. I mean it was a shady place and it was hard to get too and so you know sixteen years old, crossing the mountains from the from the sea, a quartet, as you know in my old man, suburban, and an

these guys would fly in for low tide and sadness and really good, surfers and then made you know they give us some cold beer. Can we didn't have ice? You know like ice was up ass commodity and they say: okay, we gotta back to cobble for happy hour and you know- and they lived led, this charmed life. You know nor shore and the winner in asia? You know in the summer baja the summer, these cities, has run the endless. These guys were literally on the endless some yeah train and they were able to buy marijuana financed by pot yeah, I guess so tie do you said was green africa. What you said we are not familiar, yes part because I I spent my whole life. While I was in the military for twenty years. I grew up as like a straight edge, hardcore kid so yeah. I don't know enough about pop world now you kate, beyond what I call I cod frank and we now like it's gone way beyond. We had the what we called purple seamless, which was the northern california pot.

Is not supposed to be good. Like oh yeah, I'll arrange tat was the best now, but it this weird gm, all pot that that's the frank and weed out like that stuff, and I don't think it's. I don't think you should he's smoking it all the time so pot has as left me away behind, but anyway, so that would pretty much run out. That's so it was a real adam smith supply and demand thing. So there was not unlimited amounts of good green pot all year round. So what's the brown pot there would be we'd, be max and colombian inferior pot. with seeds and this in that. But then the ties were master growers and the famous thai stick and so you had pot the early seventies worth two thousand dollars a pound. and so one sailboat fall.

you're, a millionaire. You know, and so that's why so many surfers got involved in it, because what is surfers need they need freedom and they need time, so one sailboat for the euro millionaire- and this is in the seventies, so million your good for a life grandma exactly. and then you know, then you guys do another well do a bigger about you know and then all of a sudden you're dealing with tie gangsters in bringing it across the border and p max gas trucks, paying million dollar bribes. I mean, like you, know, remarkable trade craft actually and then that's where I learned a lot of trade craft. You you have this quote, so you wrote a book called size took on a poor court from right now it says one afternoon a long, haired well travelled surfer came into the surf shop and after exchanging warm greetings and elaborate handshakes with the shopkeeper, he threw a big plastic bag filled with greenish brown plant matter under the counter and said, ty sticks bro, that's

summer, my friend found older neighbour, stash of statistics stole one, so it was just like This seemed like the thing you said, another good corner. The quest for utopia turned into self indulgence in narcissism. The beach was scape a constant and stable refuge during a time of uncertainty. This is like the seventies absolutely and yet, as I said, almost all of my peers. Parents were divorced and You know, and luckily, athletics grounded me very much right what one athletics were or you don't baseball basketball football from five years old to fourteen years old, every seas, with the same guys in a pop warner. And you know we were the palisades dolphins, light blue uniforms with dolphins are helmets about forty blonde hair white boys, our schedule was watts

and shaw? And now wasn't: even the vat seems like pico rivera with ease like these mexican teams running the wishbone You know, if need be, just what is this yeah we're in our dorky little palisades dolphin sooner. But there are some great athlete. who came out of the palisade Steve Kerr, J, sure, aid her. So It was interesting because back then allay was not segregated So we were, you know we were gone up against the best of the blacks and offer the best, the mexican had to offer and we had a lot of mutual respect for each other through athletics towards its segregated. Now I would say, the l riots change things dramatically and I saw with my younger half siblings. They didn't you know they stayed in their little veto, enclave, yeah and it didn't, would wasn't good. You know. and then I you know then I went to

I've at school and eta was just once you turned forty one indian or whatever yeah. So I was public school until seventh grade. Then I got sent to a very difficult and prep school despised. It fought it every step of the way. Did you have to wear a uniform and stuff? No, but just had to do about four four hours a homework a night, and yet you know we ve a lot and public school or me back. Then we all went to park after school and played sports unsupervised always and people fought all the time and it was a very honest hierarchy- And so I had a guy try to bully me at the private school and I was like. Oh you gotta be kidding me, and so I waited for cross country running day. So we could get the furthest possible way from the coaches and then tripped him at from behind and then just just any, and I let him bully me like I I you know I, you know from fighting lot of its acting in. So I got him like

I like salivating and and then you know, I I probably hit him fifteen times in the face answered. You didn't even put his hands out either and then it's raining. You had any then had like weird knots all over his head from that date forward, and I won't tell you is last name, but it begins with an l and his name. He became lumpy AL avatar that day and then nobody bothered me a private school anymore, and then I was invited back cause. I've been on academic probation and was starting to turn pretty bad by about tenth grade and dumb, and then I went to a very, very fancy movie star kid very permissive, very liberal school and in santa Monica. And I and that's where I really went back, because I had some I had an old buddy from sports

his family were all big crypts, and so he was. There is basketball ringer. So they had this ringer basque. team, and so we were involved in all kinds of juno selling. We'd charging people to park at their own high school It was pretty- and I was in nice and what's your, what your dad do under his work and his ass off working is ass off to has a new family new wife and regional they're, just like my they would say whilst peter doing my dad said well there, sir, sand and now so is alive and then that was about it and so then yeah I went. I was the only one who didn't go to college. I moved to australia at eighteen to serve and and to have it

incredible time. You say this and in in the book tie sticks are extreme confidence in the ocean, often translated to dangerous sense of freedom and arrogance on land. At fourteen I was busted by customs at tijuana border trying to smuggle fireworks at sixteen. I was sneaking onto private government property to surf waves guarded by barbed wire fences, no trespassing signs and men with guns at nineteen. I moved to australia and never looked back. There was very little. We were not willing to do if it enabled us to serve perfect on crowded waves. Whether it was bringing a few cases of canadian whisky through this through the surf during prohibition poaching some illegal mexican lobsters for mobsters in vegas working on the gambling? two anchored in international waters off santa Monica appear or offloading offloading a load of thai marijuana A forty waterman had always been part of the black market. Fast money fast He bought time and freedom. That's like a history of what sir forces for the past sets

the prohibition crying out loud. You say: by sixteen marijuana, was my daily bread without which no surfing session was complete. Although there was a western surfing association, a national scholastic, surfing association, a christian surfing association and probably even a republican surfing organization appears, and I were members of the marijuana surfing association now all surfer smoked pot somewhere adamantly opposed to it, but for us part surfing, went hand in hand not only with smoking anesthesia fur. For that, life sharp edge. It was, above all an effective time killer for endless waiting. Whether was a swell to come, the tied to drop or the wind of change. We always to be waiting for something you know when One of the things that I tell people a lot and it seems like you're just knee deep in this, when you are young, you dont connect what you're doing right now with your future,

and I think that's a huge problem. It leads to do the wrong things, because they don't recognize that? Oh, what I'm doing right now this going to impact my future, whether they're not thinking about the future, they don't they, they can get caught. They think they get away with anything or they think they're immortal all those things you it seems You are just knee deep into hey, I'm living the moment right now. That's it yeah, absolutely yeah end it took a long time to repair the damage because I went to australia through so do you, you D, graduate fiscal and then, once you graduated from high school now you're eighteen, nineteen years old, note on eighteen june, eighteen years old, any your dad what you do, what college did you get your gray? I know, but I was always working. I always had a couple jobs, so I as always I had union jaw bore you know I was. I was I was never lazy and

always motivated it just by traditional things, and so I wouldn't my ass off and then I would sell me no part on top of that. But you know DR well kind of only pot, only two adults only law, quantities never to kids or, like a dealer, I've really kind of frowned on mad and and just saving all my money for the big surf trip right- and I so I did that for about ten months after high school. Then I I flew to australia and I lived a broken. Had point between byron bay and lennox head with a famous holds shaper name Michael conduct in george green. Was our neighbor who I knew a little bit from santa Barbara and it was just bliss and I travelled all over australia with some of the best surfers at the time. One of my best friends from the guy demand corrigan who was

best surfer of his generation schoolboy cadet chap they wandered him. The pro tour. He went to work at the bob instead and I love the ozzy's because care, if you're a dick you at deck and they are going to call you out on it and you know the pubs and the drinking and fighting and fighting and fighting- and you know it was a wild time, the Ozzy's and- and I had a ball and the I went to. I went to micronesia serb micronesia new caledonia, fiji before tavern, then french polynesia. And then I had. I had a t shirt girlfriend and I thought I had died and gone to have and I'm there and it just still was too good and then suddenly for now, are you nineteen nineteen nineteen years old time, ass,

your role and so suddenly a strange car pulls up in the driveway, and I look ok, see Witzig now you're into the point here you gotta too he girlfriend at her house your surfing, leavin, the dream, yeah and You're in her house living there steamer and now what do we get strange car pulls up fat middle aged frenchman jumps out. eyes pop this far out of his head locks me out of the way runs straight for the bed rips the sheets off the bed starts smelling the bed like a dog, I run and grab my passport whatever I can mind in fact leave half of my should there be fee on onto this. Freed up and they hills above poppy. Eighty and I'm just going like much said she loved me.

There are now in their way in poppy. Eighty I check into some dingy hotel turns out. It has like a transvestite. disco in it, and I was right pretty blonde hair surfer back then, You know what I'm. Basically, I had a barricade, my door and and I got. I got a guy, I'm going back to l a so I get back to l a after about a year away and I I see my friends are basically sitting stoned in this, same chairs. I left them in a year earlier and I had kind of a moment of sartori and said like I'm out of here. I'm never living here again and I'm gettin. As far away from this fuckin place, I can, and so hold on whether the weird thing to have, because It seemed like everything, I mean other than this big french dude who's gonna rolled in on your dream, asia, but you know could find another cohesion

girl or another growler. I mean not one, sponsoring me that that is technically spawn yang locally. But you get back to May your case, your friends are still kind of stone and surfing or whatever, but its. We ain't seen. like that's an extreme view, point two suddenly have unless I guess the connection that I just talking about where people don't We stand that what they're doing now impacts their future. So that's probably what Was you made this connection between? Oh the I been gone for a year and these guys are doing the same thing and they're going to do. Five years. They can be doing that in ten years old what I'm doing right now is gonna pack, my future, so maybe you did make that connect, while also I had served such good way so many good waves mainland. ex head back then light crown

the outer wreaths of cape byron in a big way. It's broken had point every day so that I got back. I was like ok, I'm going backwards now, like I'd die. all this, and so I found this college of small another extreme liberal, liberal arts, school barred college and at that time about seven hundred and fifty students and they basically took your pulse and saw that your check cleared and you could get in, and so they had an immediate decision plan. So I flew, I've, been in l a may be for five days I found out about it. I flew to new york, I got in was it just timing wise. It happened to be in the fall or whatever. Whenever I got back to seattle August yeah, they had a they, rolling admittance thing and it was basically are almost an art school, in a remarkable place and it was up in the woods of new york state and I got really into hunting and fishing, and so

I just stop. I fished at a trout dream on my college campus and I fished and hunted every single day and I had seven weeks off for christmas, so I go to oh sure every christmas, and then I go to scorpion every summer side work in the union's make money and then go to skopje, they saw. I still got to surf a lot, but I became a priest area student and it was not easy because I was damaged goods cause. I hadn't done in high school. So I was like you said, making up for these errors- and I was There, with these, you know really privilege, kids from the east coast and like, for example, I had never ever contemplated doing. You know heroin or anything like that. The first time I even heard about it was on the east coast, with the most privileged children of amerika and and

well. I was horrifying to me, and so I became a very, very serious student and and had some incredible professors and wrote a really first rate thesis on my great grandfathers time at nuremberg before we get there, it seems, like you had a moment of clarity. Also when it came to you are the marijuana, There's no! Yes, sir! You in that in the book tie states using the you get pulled over and you say the officer took one. Look at my bloodshot eyes caught a whiff of the cars interior asked son. Are you transporting narcotics across state lines? In that moment, under the d desert sky, told myself. If I got out of his jim, I would never put myself in this position again. Although I continued to smoke I never traffic begin. So how how you get how'd you get through that a trade crapped on some level. I am I

you know it's like half a pound or quarter pound and it was vacuum. Act and wiped down with the gas or some solvent in the cushion of the driver's seat, and it was a hatch back mustang gdp. I've been driving straight from allay and was all the way at the border of texas and and new mexico and I had two joints for the drive, and this was just for my personal consumption in college, because there is no good potter he goes and so so I'm smoking. My second joy and I drop in on the ground on the interior light, I pass a cop going about it. five. I don't even see him and I see you know the light. So far back as our that can't be for me and then I'm hit with a spotlight and he's on on the pierre going your hands on the steering wheel and pull over the side of the road so I'm rolling down both windows

sheets and Chong shows go on on an item a really long time to stop and so, and he was up the I know he said son said: there's a fruity herbal roma in the car and a brown stain on your lip and I just said, No sir, that's all I would say no, sir. Oh I'm and ask you to step out of the car I do I consent to search so I gave him the keys, hoping he would open it without and he was too mark. So he said he made me, give consent any start pulling my bags out and one had a bunch of blocks of white surfboard wax. up against car and he was sure, was like coke or something so there, canada and then he's going to my bags, and then I have these bundles of slides and brown paper with duct tape, wrapped around him up against a car, and so he gets too big build.

the two strikes and now we're like twenty minutes into it and he's an american, indian and and and then fell finally he's he's. You know my my seats are Therefore the dounia has unfolded. The seats up. I have served, bore, They have all kinds of conversation are so he's Ask me about this and wiggys kind of real. Ok, this guy's, not that bad and then, and then he says, son we're going to strike a little deal going, oh boy, and he goes you're going to keep it under. fifty five, while you're in new mexico and we're going to college even and that was the hardest part cause. I was a jump at his arm, still, never do it and I really never did it again, and that was that cause. I you know I'd. and made it over the rubicon. You know- and I had turned my life around, but I almost fucked it up out of just you know, arrogance and stupidity. You know

you track on any other friends. You had back from that era. Absolutely still friends with all of them for better or worse all, saw served with them in malibu yesterday and genoa ned some of em report in a real heavy leftovers. When it comes to drugs, hero like they should take him to the male clinic and test them does from crack. in fact an and lost a lot of friends to fend off lost a lot of friends to opiates in the last few years, so faint? No, sentinel is a fake or aura and made obesity. Is that what it area and its work thousand times stronger than or some gaps in the actual number. How would you didn't? Hair was on the ratio, but it's it's it's orders of magnitude and you know it In my opinion, a symmetrical warfare against the united states by china

so the chinese ship, the chemicals to the mexican cartels they make them thanks to our poorest border comes across. I mean we had where. Where do you get the the level where theory come from that. The chinese are signed in the chemicals to mexico at its first really well known because they would get american men I called journals that had drug recipes that were to addictive that were ever approved an end. Other it's I see it as as like doktor evil. You know with his pinky in his mouth coming up, but look at the impact that attack on america in last year more aware, cons died than hundreds. Thousand americans died, guided bodies. So that's or then korea view

nor in the war on terror combined and nobody seems to be too up in arms about it. Then one year one year eight thousand yeah, according the cdc as apparent that scares me more than anything. So the rest, scares you as apparent cause, your kid can be at a party and one says: hey you wanna take some ecstasy exact and they take ecstasy, but it turns out being threatened all waste in their dead, yet not happened in my town in north carolina. The kid was sports stars ready to go to college minos your party. Let's take some ecstasy and birthday happened, some naval academy students right gambling, academy, students and ford down their parting ya want four of them died men. Just like the horror reality and and to me you mean did enforcing drug policies are difficult, but

You know, and then you look at like purdue pharma and how the opiate crisis came to america and the corruption I mean at the that's at our core. That's the nations problem now is just of a kind of corruption I saw in Cambodia, and you know where they know, policies, husbands, buying the stock that she's to approve our hunters laptop or this kind of stuff, and it's a by partisan. Game. I'm not you know I just it's. You know and then like we were seeing prior to the interview everybody's into deep with the chinese. To really call them out on anything and are obsession with russia is conspicuous to me compared to the blind. I returned. de China now with taiwan, were starting to firm up a little bit, but that sleep, we're sleepwalking, basically and word work.

Do you know foreign policy as public relations and and to have the same neo conservatives back like You know so succinctly, talk about forget your exact phrase, but entertaining responsibility for your failures, and the extreme ownership I think an and we look at these foreign policy elites that had just been right, wrong wrong and wrong, and I had moments where I got to write for the big periodicals and stuff like that. But I always went too far, are, and I always I mean I I was all over soros disguise during the nineties because they were you, told and so the international criminal court, but universal jurisdiction cycle. We kind of tried that and woodrow wilson, and it didn't work out so well and all those people went on the huge positions you know: Ben road samantha powers. These were reporters. These are my peers and you know

play ball. You got tapped, you got pushed to that of the class, and so I was in the in the odd position where I was. critical of the war on terror, from a policy perspective and thought it could have. You know, particularly. when it went to Iraq, because I had four, that the army war college that I would call and say what really impressive, guy lieutenant colonel conrad crane. Who is portrays brain really and he was the author of the counter insurgency manual and You know any said: yeah tom work from the state department who I had argued with about war crime stuff. He said he wrote the hall occupation plan. They headed like eight volumes and rumsfeld set warwick state department. Chuck it, and so people on the inside were nervous and and conical, unlike we don't really know where this is go on, but it's gone and an you know like-

in a worse than an error. Is a blunder and this a blundering and well, I would say worse than an error- is tonight Assess your situation- exotic, oh yeah, you know what I was wrong about this- allows the adjustments we need to make now and took so long to eat for any kind of that type of recognition that it was ridiculous, and then libya and syria keep rolling up. You know and now work this time and by the way you know you can go all the way back to vietnam, sure you can look at the exit. It's just the exact same thing. It's exact same thing in vietnam, everything that was going on. It's like oh The generals only listen to politicians. Only this new generals and the generals only listen to themselves yet in No one's actually talking to the troops round that know, what's happening and could actually devise away to move forward in a positive way doesn't happen. No freakin ridiculous.

Rights are going back to go back to two little tangier to discredit our good going back to you. you so you end in a college. You gotta this disbarred, barred college and you're you're having a good time you enjoy it yeah yeah, you so talk to me about your your masters, thesis it wasn't noticed undergraduate, okay end and I want a bunch of awards. So I wasn't: I was on the nuremberg trials and the secret released the convicted nazis to trade, to get german rearmament basically the german say the germans were masterful, you know, and the means statecraft come on we're gonna be them and they said. Oh, you have to release, are prisoners of war. If you want a german army and now you know with the soviet union seeming to be menacing in europe, berlin. Splitting

and and the germans are pouring gas on it. You know and so hit of hitler's best spy masters on the soviet union, reinhard galen heat look all their records on the soviet union, buried them and then surrendered to the. U s said: okay, you want that you get off. My guys off the war crimes list and yeah we'll give. All the intelligence you want in the soviet union, so they flew Galen at all to the united states and he would he would kind of hype up. The soviet threat to keep the americans you know, on their heels and and so the germans masterfully manipulated us and we wound up freeing. Some of the worst german war criminals, like some of the insights commando zine sets group and who followed the very marked and we're just pure executioners, and and so you know that quite alarming. When I was younger, I was a little more

idealistic before I did: field work and I then so I then, and it was an interesting so that that became my phd. Advise dissertation. So then- I went to columbia to study with brigadier general Telford. Taylor was the chief prosecutor, scary guy and there's is in what way. There's Well, he I think he argued. I don't know how many supreme court cases there's a fake. Smoothie called the paper chase about law, school and John house Is this really yeah hey where he was John housman times ten and and and if you went off topic talking to him, he would just closes book. I'm sets. I see we're finished today and now You were dismissed and you know, and and old fashioned law school you go jones. Tell me about the smith act and you get to shop, the whole semester- and if you blow it that's half your brain,

and so, and so this is colombia law school. Well, I got my phd in history, but also to classes than law school, and this of international affairs and had some incredible professors and and it was horrible, I hated him. Minute of it. I'm so glad I did it now, but it was you know like being locked in a box car for four years or so I mean what was your vision at that time for your life like? What did you see yourself doing? Did you want to go into journalism? Did you want to be a professor? Would you want to do? I thought I was going to go to law school and then I got my masters in history, a road or another thesis another. When another step further on nuremberg, Then I got into colombia, law, school journalism, school and history, and there they at that point. Your kind of a professional athletes you get no to wish in you get money and all that in the history and then iconic pitted em all again

to each other, and I got the best deal from history and I was still not totally committed dead academia. I just you know was getting a free phd and I I really enjoyed it and I was gonna write a book inciting. Was journalism more moving in that direction. But but I will I was always kind of more active person. I didn't want to just sit on the sidelines and then the opportunity came as I finished, to go to Cambodia and it was what I wanted to do and if so, how opportunity sprang up. As I said these two guys, I grew up with in in in California. photographers for agency france presse. They stumbled across the cache of negatives. It too slang prison. and they set up a secret dark room and were printing mammon and really pay. serving the original negatives, the evidence of of worker

in that I knew that's the key, though Punishing the individuals is obviously important, but creating periodical record of the crimes? That's what's made holocaust revisionism so difficult because as nuremberg created an unassailable historical record? So that's why my mind, was I didn't think that they would ever try anybody and it will- and in fact, did, and I played a small role in keeping those issues alive, Preserving the evidence and passing that evidence on the cambodian documented she's centre that I worked closely with them, as I went further on and so what? What year is this now so this should be. Ninety four is my first trip, then when did you decide Why don't you start training digital age?

was training and g condo. First with a guy named john parity in new york city, who was a former pro kick boxer. real bad ass, who fought on indian reservations and was fighting like him, I may matches in the tunnels beneath china, town and before Were the era of closed circuit tv. He had em those essex tiger shoes, and he would so steel toes in em and and and and we get in all kinds of fights in new york city and beat up bad people, and he encouraged us to do that and and and and John Donna. Her was kind of around a bit at that time, and so I was you know- is training with pretty lotta kickboxing and he was a real, a very big lillian guy an odd guy, very sadistic in his training. Everything was glide full contact and he

would bring an incredible fighter said he knew he brought and assume. Arrests are Yours novia, who fought a mere beat mario sparing. We met him when he had just come in here, fighting underground fights a russian fencer. Who is the food? Ass his human I've ever seen. only in one direction and you know small arms, stuff and all kinds of different things, and we were all kind of scared of wrestlers and an pretty talk. fighting this russian wrestler who almost broke his neck and killed them. the first round of their challenge match and then he now damn out so unconscious that he thought kill them in the second round, but that left a big mark so so he never. He encouraged us to finish our fight on the hardwood floor and and so we have no mats and and and not many people

acid, that long and that school and and then I heard about the garcia brothers, the mexican guy the garcia brothers and- and that was that was the graces. And so then I had a friend who is a, ressler and he said oh yeah, I'm training with with hickson gracie in iran, pico and so I came back out to california- I come every summer. So when you spend your summer in California, you gotta That's the first time you were gonna, pico yeah went first time. I think ninety two, I got a private and then Hicks said come back, you know come back and really train, and- then the next summer I trained you know three days a week in the men's, been men's, daytime class and my friend,

to say it was. It was lunchtime on the prison yard and it was you know we had an air. Ninety four, ninety five, no ninety, three, ninety three, so this was Eric paulson and John Lewis was in there wipe out and and, as I said in the book like they were minor compared like guys like you, then there was like prison strachan unit guards that were so big and the then, are these guy was offshore oil rig, like poor people, coiner guy was like three hundred pounds in ages. Grabber wrist, unlike peel d, just take things and Yeah paul Van act was in there and then just all the carrier a brazilian rio guys coming here and coming there and

then I served well. They knew me from surfing, so they like that, and I was a good standard fighter so and we had to do a lot of santa back. Then luis le Moule would put on these row these ridiculous leather boxing gloves and- and I do my best please stuff, and they all like cakes and kids thought it was the best and dumb, and it was a great time, and I hickson. I became good friends and not that deep. But then we both kind I've had a pivotal moment in both of our lives, and it was when I going to start in Cambodia and he was going to fight in Japan and we would run into each other at sunrise, malibu and just there are six and aches, and- and we talk- you know for an hour and end up. I don't think I've had any superficial conversations with in thirty years, and it's always straight to the guts of it. And then I started

you know going to Cambodia and allow At times. I would come straight back from a gnarly trip right to his house, always unannounced in the same clothes I've been wearing smelling like would smoke in kind spun out on volumes and beers and cause you can't sleep after you get that wound up right and any take one look at me. Any good. Take off your boots and I salute. Let's play around a little bit and he wouldn't even let me start my show, intel and then I'd have to our private and in like street clothes and then say: ok like what the fuck happened. Nets line. Then so, and then I would tell him these like these martial arts in areas like fighting on motorcycles. I got it on motorcycles once and unlike had a full third forty miles, an hour fight on motorcycles, with three guys trying to pull me off and we made them crash. And then

a lot of mobs stuff and, as I was saying earlier, is all in cambodia in cambodia like in cash, I dunno, I think, about ninety nine. They attack the cambodian government orchestrated mobs that attacked the thai embassy and the time asked her had to escape and speedboat and any tie business was ransacked by kind of government orchestrated mobs. I coms, but in plain clothes molotov cocktails. and ass. I was saying earlier, I really began to see the mob as businesslike organic organism that you know feeds on the sound or broken glass and the smell of of fire and they were all on motorcycles and they would the the military police would come and disperse some. And then you hear the b b b, and they all hawk their horns and need reform up and a what

on all night need here the b b b and then and this is my wife first trip to Cambodia through you bring your wife on these trips. Now this was Firstly, the amal one, the I said: oh, not smell its opt out anymore and springs but nowhere and in this we were in the after all this time, and I was not expecting much and discuss all look fireworks. researchers and, and so- and it was a remarkable thing. you know that really stuck with me of Of- and I think as a society were moving too This point of of you know this mob gets kind of the military. Please heard them down this narrow street and so they're they're, like five abroad asked all those little motorcycles, two or three guys on the motorcycle and they're kind of st punks right in there. three military policemen all hard old, probably form

khmer rouge guys dark skin, which is typically the more you know, the khmer rouge guys are more peasant areas and and they block them off and they all have a case old banged up a case and they walk up and the the lead punk and the lead cop go. No, it's the nose and the cotton that punk's going, and then you see and I'm on a balcony second floor right above it that air and and the and the lead cop plays really passive. Oh yeah, okay, a man I'm sorry and he and he wheels around- takes two steps back nods to his guys whips it around from the hip. They all open up. Thirty round magazines, foot over the heads of the of the mob reload, those guys leave their bikes run each other over. It turns into complete keystone cops. They turn into the biggest bunch of cowards. You ever seen in your life,

and then I went out on the balcony and started clapping, and you know yeah I just I think yeah it was had a profound impact. Done. You know on the mob and the cowardice of the mob when someone has the courage to stand up to the mob. What was the initial at that you caught onto for coming to Cambodia. Was, In my mind, this was the worst unaccounted for atrocity since world war two, This was the event that that destroyed the never again promise that aid the whole never again we're not be bystanders to genocide, mythical and- and I said, how And why did this happen? And that's what made me go, that's why I wanted to start there, then bosnia habit and then I'm in the foreign correspondence club.

Watching rwanda and rwanda's just on a magnitude that you know it slight cambodia, and so these things or flaring up all around us, the, u n sending force is doing the same bullshit neutrality thing you had the french foreign and in cambodia generals, lorry dan and redo said unleashed, war? Is our business we'll go fight these guys and they wouldn t, take MA felicia and both both generals race? we had the Ozzy s ass. She had real serious guys, but they'd send bulgarians. they'd, send You know I mean, though the latter most lasting legacy of the. U n in cambodia was aids because they took soldier from all over the world, put him all over the country and was there my end, you inland cruisers, that the commercial stole they were just steel, Matt, Adam gunpoint and one of the guys that I hired a ex khmer rouge guy. He

then sell them back to you and he would be the negotiator for them to buy back their own cars and- it was just weakness upon weakness, yeah, you're, you're, saying facing death in Cambodia. Your book, you say, I began research. I began the research that would make this book possible. Nineteen. Eighty three, I was completing my phd dissertation at columbia, university on the nuremberg war, crime trials and laws of war. The desert and was awarded honours, but it was cold comfort. I felt hollow and fraudulent like a boxing commentator who had never, then in the ring. I was writing about modern conflict as a civilian leading a secure life and an ivy league university, twenty eight and out of one of the softest generations in american history. What did I know about conflict resident resolution beyond what I read to teach undergraduate about how the world should be without addressing the rapidity changing the rapidly chain.

World, on its own terms, was to perpetuate a familiar cycle of fraudulent So you're gonna go get in it then so so, as can be the first time you have cambodia, but how much hell did you gather the first time he went there I saw that it were that the? U n had done nothing about accountability. I saw that the the evidence of war crimes and genocide, and all that was in the wind that you know I mean we're finding stuff, you know from third parties, I go a bunch of material in east germany because the east germans came in with the vietnamese military. So, there was no kind of it was catches it can so. My main imperative initially was to preserve the historical evidence, and I was a historian where the background and war crimes

and so you know when I went to tell for taylor and sidra I think I should do this. He looked at me like where he How are you stupid? What did you study all this stuff for my group father when I went the pilot when I went to tell him, I'm gonna go to Cambodia. You know he said Joe great dont. Be careful, careful hills, and so nobody in my family thought it was the least bit strange cheer up, so that we know my dad's have sister, Marty Hoy, who would have been the first woman to climb avarice, I think, and eighty two and her waist belt, dead and she fell five thousand vertical feet. They never found her body and she was probably the greatest female mountain clamour of all time. My uncle sailed like a twenty nine foot boat from vent. Her harbour to the our and spent like six year sailing around the world. So we can get it honest enough.

I don't know you know, just as normal, at some point. You know when you're working cambodia case, you you, you start The threat on James clark, lance mcnamara, my deeds crystal lance yeah and that's tell us about dress. Well, I had friends from the marijuana trade who said: hey these guys as we knew vanished in Cambodia and we never. We don't know what happened see if you can find any record see if you can find the thing about them, and- and I found one of their pictures in the prison white guy. You know surfer and and that was me- That was something I could identify with. Had I been ten years older, it could have been me. I would probably done that at that time, so that, and then I met the

families you know and that I think, and that's that Also, that leads us into the mic. Was I don't want to get too far out of myself, but nothing? is more damaging and traumatize into a family than having a family member disappear and not how what, when and not being able to tie that up and see the the trauma that the family goes through. As a result, the alcoholism, suicide, all those kind of things. In a really followed a lotta, the westerners, who were captured by the khmer rouge these guys rolled up initially sailboat just got to close and die those disputed islands off cambodia. The vietnamese cambodians were always fighting over, so they had pete. Fat american, fast boats. They had. fishing boats, they were,

patrolling that stretch of water and I and and very vigilant about it, and so yeah, so that without was it and they just you know, gotta got their boats took man took him to tour slang prison in did and tortured them, for you no cost of the law, ass to who died in other was days, before the vietnamese liberated cambodia, so you know, but there were three months or something you know just a horrible, tortures and, and rewriting their confessions over and over and over and long thirty, forty, fifty page confessions and You know and that's the thing in that's You know you see that at that a certain point with torture. It doesnt work. So what it's crazy? That

that the khmer rouge decided to photograph everyone before they tortured and killed them. Yeah. Did you ever by what what compelled them do that. There were so paranoid that they had to prove to the leadership that they were carrying out their orders and the remarkable thing about prisoners. There were roughly like twelve hundred guards and staff members. Something like five hundred of them wound up is pretty There's one guy screamed had a bad dream in the night and screamed you're CIA one guy broke acts handle your kgb, mean you know this is stone age. Communism and basically there spying on each other, there all snitching on each other. They would have meetings and one guy I interviewed was one of the head, executioners name him boy and I was

prepared this meat evil incarnate and he was rumored to have killed. Thousands with the with the ox cart acts on the back of the neck. And so I said you know I'd interviewing reviewing and a couple of marlborough. Reds and tie beer is always kind, elusive, up a little bit and he said, do you know? I said: how did you? How did you get it to sling prison? He said well they showed up in my village. You know, and you were drafted at gunpoint, and I ran away and then I they came back. my village, I ran away again and the second time they sent me to the front and my first battle. I was shot head and they said all you're gonna die so over the top. You led the charge, get shot. A bunch more times he recovers from that and then during the invasion of campaign, he gets a grenade dropped on em,

and I say wow you know- were you afraid you were going to die cause? No, I was afraid that I was going to get captured and they were going to eat. My liver in front of me so. He crawled under a house survives that and they they all comrade Hoy you're such a ban. In order we have a special job for you. They send him little slang, so starts out as the low level guard. Then his boss is accused. He becomes a prisoner. He moves up the food chain, and so his superiors keep getting killed. So suddenly, he's one of the head guards he's driving the truck to the killing fields. It should and you know- and I said something to the effect like do- you feel bad about it or some stupid question like that, and he just looked migas. It was death either way, and I and you know, and and it was remarkable in that he and his whole life now is about penance and you know cause.

I would say that these guys, like oh, do you think it's important that pol pot is tried and we hold them accountable and all this raw. stern, human rights, bull shit and they would say no not really at all. I think they should dig a big hole and bury all of it, because vengeance breeds vengeance and that's very buddhist right that then they would say what does it matter? He's he's. Seventy years old he's only going to live ten more years, he's coming back for fifteen thousand lives as a cockroach So he's gonna get his so their thing as your reincarnated as the as the lowliest horrible creature on earth for the next ten thousand years so anything we can do in our earthly time timeframe as is immaterial to them so that was interesting. You know that really and that the the guy

probably had a bigger, more profound effect on me was one of the survivors, a guy named John. They kept him alive cause he get a carve effigies of pulpit sure you're, a good artists yeah. It was a good artist, figured out that he is a good idea and and I same thing first trip always in this great never again we're gonna get you Jim, the stairs and and any kind of any cracked, and he said you know what I'm only talking to you, because the museum director told me too, and I don't like talking to you guys and every time I talk to you, you short in my life. I think that they should take all this crap and dig a big hole and bury it and tear down this prison because vengeance reads: vengeance: and then I turn off. My tape recorder said okay later and I could have easily spun that gone. You know

ever again raw raw and gotten a big check from george soros but I really put me on my heels and I thought what cold comfort that wording of working to come in like the white nights after the genocide and hold a couple, guys up accountable, and at this time you ve got rwanda going on. You got bosnia going on, I mean during the former yugoslavia war there in diet, people with an ongoing conflict where there massive atrocities being carried out and they're, not even doing anything. Rwanda, the same timor, measles, blowing up all over the place and the? U s taken this very passive. non interventionist, even when they have forces the ground they don't take, em off the leash. And so the whole thing seemed very fraudulent to me. I went to the hague a couple of times and I you know- and I

you know again, I called the human rights industry, it's an industry, and when I started in the whole war crimes thing, I was one of about three people. Nobody was in this field and It becomes this booming industry with the hague with all these institutes and places it did universities. and I ve worked on a lot of these high profile cases cause. I have subject matter expertise, but I can't take money or I'm a partisan so I've walked a strange line in my career. You know where you know, I worked on the jose idea, the dirty bomber case. It worked on the David irving case or in the canaries case and you know- and I I've sort of euro run a foul of everyone up for years and it's funny his books are like children. They make their own friends. So. I thought all the new york times the polite society. They're gonna love me now.

They hated me and, and it was the professional military and the far left became my best constituents. You know and my first powers that I'd Does this lawn warrior learn warrior alone, worse, an interesting book, because that took me ten years to get published and it got reach acted by a lot of publishers, and I would get they take your book. They send it out to the experts in the field, and I would always get one really good review. Then one really bad review because, basically I said nuremberg trials. If anything, drew the germans to gather in their defence of the third reich It was the marshall plan, it was economic prosperity, that's what converted them

to see the error of the third reich and the air of the third reich. The key players are the children of the people who lived through the three. Right. The sixty, eight or generation comes of age and say dad. What did you do and the war? So that was the sixty, eight or gender. Yet only sixty eight hours is, you know, like sixty eight was a big year of of strife the united states of europe people that were born- and maybe I like the kind of lefty seller, yeah and so do I, generation that when that society began to reckon with its past, it was not in the fifties. So that was a very unwelcome message. But then a german historian, a guy. By than him you're friedrich, he was one of my reviewers and he said oh yeah. Of course, we all know this is this should be published bob, bar and then my second guy sent me the most scathing, criticism of anything I've ever written and

and I I and friedrich called me her maguire great job labile, I said it's done. Dunham they didn't get the contract is what and he said, they said, send me the guy's review. So then he went through the guy's review, ripped it apart and got me hired by Spain. tv in germany said then he and do speak to add an hour's war crime. Said: visor the german defence attorneys afloat and richter, auto crumbs bueller, who is doing its and crops defend the attorney and this guy was an hour's special. You know, adviser on the war crimes stuff. So in that pretty red storing german sovereignty in the fifties wherein there kind of, let off probation and this gigantic thousands of page. Eighty he inserts these paragraphs that invalidate all,

did postwar war crimes, trial decisions. Legal validity is rejected, and- and I wouldn't no one would ever found it out, but he said: look I wrote it in invisible link, I put the exception before the rule no good lawyer. Whatever do that, and so that's it. I had that in my book and that was not a happily risk. So yes, so so I was so that was difficult in ten years, knowing that you're right, but you gotta fight and fight fight, and then the book got published and that's the book that the military liked him the left like, but the polite society sure didn't like it, but they didn't they couldn't really come after me, cause I hadn't done the heavy lifting like. I said there, analysis of the number two has never went deeper than robber chat

since opening address its is mythic myth of nuremberg as this redemptive thing and so and then what about? What about death it facing death in Cambodia so that one get received pretty well actually yeah when that one I did better, but still an arena the end. What's your take away from the ito? Vengeance breed vendors? Is that your take away From that whole thing, hey bury this stuff in a whole. Let's move on! No, definitely not, but I think what what really came home for me was that you have to talk to the culture that that survived this that endured this you, can't come from the high and parachute down from the hague and that's what they did in cambodia and So when they? Finally, you know they, they took more time

To try for eighty year old khmer rouge leaders than it took to try thousands of war criminals after world war to an end, You know I don't know how many millions they spent the numbers are impossible to tell and and they got involved in what I call therapeutically lives, which is we closure and healing and- and you can ask a court to do that and then they point in irma say: look look, Nuremberg did which is a myth and so to ask the court to do anything more than punish the guilty exonerate the innocent is too much, and so all of this therapeutic legalism, a new burden it with with some victims. You in all this kind of emotional staff and that's the world we live in now, where you know this is notions of comfort and safety and I

I have a very kind of differ, view of it and I believe that that free mrs it safe. The lambs freedom safe. If you want this kind of timid little bleeding freedom, but the lions freedom is, though, is a bold thing and if the lion breaks its leg behind his get it and that's the game in. Oh, so you don't get it both ways and I and I'm very uncomfortable with the direction americans societies going now with. You know this No and that's, why don't teach anymore, because and I love teaching. It was very fun, but it turned into this notions of oh well. You know you know I don't feel safe. I don't feel comfortable. I can't teach the hollow austin come erosion you'd be comfortable. What is that so very socratic in the way I taught in that you know you don't raise your hand. I call on

and- and you know, and that's, keep some reading and keeps him on their toes, and I I would- walk in when I taught at columbia with three by five cards and I'd, say: okay, take one pass it down and they kind of giggling, then I'd say folded in half and they go have arts and crafts and go write. Your name on it. I can't be bought, I remember your name smith, why are you here? Smith, stock tips sports course talk and just boom fast and make malta, and just like you del within buds, by the end of that first last day were bound together as a unit in terror and and then and then you know, but then, once that class was over, they go boop. Professor maguire knots Peter said that was a fuckin shot I said you call on me anytime: you need a letter recommendation. Anything

You know you survive man, I'm yours for the rest of your life and and I'm still in touch with a lot of those students and they done incredibly well, and I also also taught jiu jitsu. While I taught history not to any. You don't like your great. You can come to the judges to class and you settle it with me on. The mat has hague. When you look at the committee rouge in Cambodia when you look at the nazis nazis had like a ramp up period. You know it took. Nineteen thirty Ray you could see it brewing. There was this sort of slower boil, as the things started, to transform. But the committee rouge was like over night madness. and madness at a level that the aids it since its actual insanity why

class resentment, therewith, stoked and so you had an incredibly corrupt. You had crazy king sihanouk was seen I'll just this kind of wild playboy an incredible decadent corruption of the elites and peasantry resenting them already leading ray, the hard lives you know when you go up in the cambodian provinces a day seems like a week and it's hot and it's just it's hard hard life, and I and so Their seeing these very westernized, you know decadent leads in the city and then you have pulpit three you some pond- and these are all sore educated so and they bring the latest trendy marxists theories and- and similarly MAO an end

cultural revolution becomes the model and- they want the blank slate clean. hasn't year, zero yeah, they want people, you know most the elites. Were you no real, you know peasants with no education, nothing, and they would get him away from their parents and reshape them and and and that's what They did and they did very quickly and they did it with great chinese support. Denial on the western laughed who were who were you know: NOME chomsky in particular that you know would deny the atrocities and cast a shadow of doubt over what was going on when it was pretty clear what was gone. And then as a very shameful period, and then it was shameful afterwards, when everybody knew and prompt them up in the name of cold war geopolitics and so on.

And then I mean so you have in you know in seventy nine you have the vietnamese, knock out the khmer rouge then? Chinese knock, take a run at the view, It means, and they have a nasty little view, no border war for a minute there and then, they come to a truce and basically the chinese are like you're not to talk about the genocide. In the end they gave the they did beloved better than people thought they would. The vietnamese vietnamese are pretty fear, and and so young, so that That was that was how those you know, those cold war geopolitics. You know, shape things up. Our I see well, when did when did when facing death in Cambodia actually come out two thousand and five or said you were working on that for you working on that book for ten years and years, usually years,

you're, not a fast writer. No, no I'm very fast, but I had to let the events lay out. Hickson spoke to me six months later, so so that means where were you you were in Cambodia? When nine eleven happened, I was and how? What what was alike It was surreal my buddy luke kind, who had just come from, Ghana stand. I think he had dinner. You'd mullah Omar, and we were at the foreign correspondent. Club was lady, and and kids ozzy any runs up the stairs worldwide, traced out and will not raised added- and I was like ok get out of here and now kind of in denial- and I said you know it's a sum drunkenness. Ass, now So I had a room. I would keep the foreign correspondence club so me, and another reporter and luke went down and work

beer and watching the thing and all of a sudden, the second plain flew in, and I wonder what the fuck and then then The only thing I was right about was when all the but in the whole screen went gray and others like it pancakes, and I knew that from construction cause. I'd seen controlled, I'd, seen, buildings collapse, and things like that. As you know- I've been around construction, my whole life, and so that that's when it got real and my wife was in new york city, and so there was impossible to get in touch with her and we were on the upper west side, so we weren't quite near it but yeah. That was then. I took me a long time to get back and I was stuck over there and yeah. It was It was a surreal okay and so this

but comes out two thousand five fishing deaf in Cambodia. That's received better Yeah then lawn warrior and then. In the meantime, you workin on this on the green o advanced rescue crap. Yes, so george, greener, recycled, legendary and if iconic surf, surfer, shaper he's kind of credited for the modern surfing fin yeah. How did you how'd. You know him when I lived in Australia and then are you live next door, neighbours yeah and then I would come often from Cambodia, to australia. and so there was like the heater the ptsd cure was being afraid of getting eaten by I mean getting. You know, killed the canaries and then

go surf. These outer, if with george green on after me, worry about guinea bike, great white sharks. and there were so many sharks there that and they still are sexually much worse now and then and I had grown up on boats and george, always had these incredible skips and he had one twelve foot boat he's an amazing fishermen. He caught a twelve foot enough, Thirteen foot tiger shark. On hand, lines office, twelve foot boat, cut both heads off with a series of bread knife brought em, both and you know before it was before shark? became the new dolphin. We regularly fish for sharks and didn't feel really bad about it, but but anyway, so I fished with where'd a fair bit and- and I was living on the nor shore, I had been a lifeguard and I was having to make a lotta rescues and milk lawyer, and the nor shore guy.

Does all the sleds and rescue stuff taught me how to drive a jet skis and I was like these things suck and then friends and the teams- and they were telling me about all you gotta do- is make this one yamaha suv that we want cause it's stable just splash of old offered, and of course, that would have been too easy. I don't do anything easy if to reinvent the wheel, so I called george george- you still got the mould for the twelve what're you I do. Ok, let's, let's make a jet. And so in the dirt. under georgia's house me and my all right hand, man from Cambodia to cut the jets key up and me, read it to his twelve foot her and the first one came out of them all perfect, and then we can solve. We can't the military programme and that really

I didn't understand military contracting things like that and then then we were a big thread and milk, industrial, complex staffing and it isn't fun anymore. For the military industrial conference will cough will eat you alive, and Ivan was a great ally and we, the teams, loved the bow. The PJ's actually became our best, our best clients, because it was me see one thirty drop overruns. You actually start manufacturing, oh yeah, we sold, I think about thirty. Two, the pjs then they made us, they didn't. Let us European law jet skis any more that were perfect, with perfect wiring, harnesses and gauges, and all that so we had cobb and a crappy engine that they made its use and wiring harnesses and steering, and all that injustice was like death by a thousand. with now see engineers and It was no longer fun at all, but but I manage get through it and came in

time and on budget delivered the boats and then sold my company to it. company called maritime applied physics, and now it's probably the best unmanned craft out there and it's gotta although panties soup rascals like fifty not now was it? Was the James clark, lance mac merriment, my deeds crystal ass, those guys those surfer? Yes, guys that were captured off of cambodia and imprisoned and killed was that sort of the first thing that that that the threat that you two writing thai stick absolutely here. and so I found what about that and I got information and I was it scorpion bay which is kind of like a you know us a glass retirement home now and- and was, I believe, all ye. I knew him and you know all these people. I know my nome and then they kept saying you need to talk to me.

critter. You need to talk to my critter. You need to talk to my critter and and I finally met my critter and he had been a big smuggler. In thailand and woody didn't tell me was that he had been contracted to supply their load, and so he thought he had been true contract, did take to bring them their load, a pot, from from taiwan entirely out from trot so guys we're on a boat sailing to tie yeah they're going to link up yet greater was gonna. Give em the outer part can bring wherever there are back jen ridder was a surfer from santa Barbara, and he go on a tie. A fishing boat with you know usual No compass they given the crap is both there add cause wanna get it sees. Indeed, I have one of those raffle log spinners and just all fashion navigating need brow in the pot out- and you know, pirates- and I mean that that period

of time is the worst period of piracy in world history. This is what years this The seventy seven do yes, so slow mid delays in vietnam falls in seventy five, so you have all those vietnamese going out to sea with, all their worldly possessions, usually in women's jury. That's how they carry their well so you had the most pharaoh brutal pirate you could ever imagined. So that was a very dangerous piece of water and And so that's what ridder was doing fur many many years and living in thailand, and he was one of the first guys to surf grudge again one of the first guys to serve bali. So a bunch of smugglers in bali in the off season and base we grant again was founded by spot smugglers and so they were the ones who really were the first to really kind of export than indonesian archive logo and, and that was in a river, was one of them, and so then I try

and him as a historian and then he started in her viewing his sources of oats retired smugglers, and we will made sure we interviewed people had been busted said there was at that time, no double jeopardy and then things gallows oddly after nine eleven and and, and then I was going to find the khmer rouge guys- and you know different. You know peter on that side. Law enforcement, confidential informants There are a lot of old. U s intelligence, guys involved, because you know they had they had the knowledge of thailand and they at the insurgent areas of thailand. Wars were all the partners ground, so they had worked. Those insurgent areas during the vietnam war How long does it take you to write thai stick tenures, but I was a thousand hours of interviews, we did What do you think the value of the trade?

portrayed coming out of that. The surfers brought into america Well, I mean at that time it was great, but but ultimately its its basic, Adam Smith. Economics becomes too expensive to transport it the low? get to big. I mean we're talking about like twenty what eaten loads and, and then, dr see industry to the united states. California is growing spot in the world, so people like why don't we just grow up mendocino or you know tat entity or one of those counties and said so there's no the monies gone, and so that's all Similarly, what happens in eighty eight, a that's where there's there's a bunch of huge busts and the biggest guys gonna, go down and then nobody wants to bother with it. It's not the implosion, exactly yeah

Now at some point during this you, you, you got another book that you workin on right now. Well, I guess before you to that which you got, you did and abiding brief. You robotics in bulgaria and you conduct got into that a little bit, but wars What was the spark how'd you convince hacks net he needed to write about. We in talking about it for a long long time and he and talk a lot and endless has said, and then it's never light and and there's a lot of stuff. I know that he doesn't know and there's a lot of stuff, that he knows that I don't know and we always were friends, and I was it you. it's a sceptic. I was not for how many minutes, Well, I wasn't it wasn't that it didn't work in a one on one situation, but but in worlds. I was in, I loved it as an exercise thing I loved it. For

the friends I made by going and beating these terrifying guys being nice and not humiliating em and making them into students and Some of my best friends around I mean I fought guys in west, australia, canada main cambodia. Always with the like. Without when work on me- and how goes from there and the sceptic yeah? for three minutes. Yes, so I was like John the baptist of jujitsu for a minute there, because I was just had done it early, but didn't like ease and idea. you know, there were just pieces of It- I didn't like I like striking. I was confident striking. I had some very patented in trees that were kind of like you know. I don't have a politically correct way to say it, but the lunching special needs person and drunken monkey exact or just like good nose were, were what and then close distance.

and so you know, so I I you know I again and I would throw this stuff at Hixon. Come on hixon, like yeah yeah, try to yeah try to disarm me with this, I like cause. I learned the fencing from the russian guys in their so fast if you're not they're, not doing this they're doing that, and so Well, you know we really kind of explored this stuff for a long, long time and in a very honest way, and we're really good friends through a lot through his son's death- and you know I knew his son well and and so do he just. Finally, I think the co video everybody with things were going slow and that's how we got gone. Well, I was a fool s affront ass, their work, you and you had the new york times, bestseller less yet which is whether they like it or not? No cakes and makes a good boy you got two worst review. I've ever had in my life and publishers weakly and it was

toxic masculinity, gone wrong. It was classic, I loved it, and oh yeah, it was bad. I wrote a novel called final spin and publishers week. We gave you a great review and it was pretty awesome. My my my editor like sent it to me I can't believe this. They compared may do David Matt fly and just like all this veto bought and my my publisher was like dude. This is insane that they gave you this incredible when I was like well, it's not that insane bro, it's an awesome book yeah, but but yeah the the thing to think it was about it was, I know, they're publishers weekly. They don't play around like of their common action. They have no problem just trash in your book, a fatal I get so that in like bring I hated it. There was great and they would like

Nobody should be interested in this book. There's only martial arts deviates or something to that effect and there and then best hour week later tell us a little bit. You you mentioned this quickly. You got a fainting. Robin foundation rises, a nonprofit that you have the time, the new with the foundation, complement Emily dickinson palm If I can stop one heart from breaking, I shall not live in vain. If I can ease one life, the aching or cool one pain or help Fainting robin onto his to again, I shall not live in vain meaning that if you can, someone, that's really not in a position to help themselves. Yes, that's got to be a positive thing. Absolutely what what? What inspired that from you, I was watching my profession. and disappear journalism, number one The internet really killed a lot of of our careers

you know we went from you know getting. Paid per word royalties. Every time something was published, two flat rates, and just it goes on the internet. It's gone forever what I mean. I can't look like that. I'm on the other side ref. Unlike the rum from the people yeah, you know we have a podcast I went to weed out we'd have this podcast for maybe six months something I went got interviewed on NPR. And so our role under this empire interview is in new york city. I go in with full on studio. There's, six or seven people behind the glass pain. There's two p or in the room, then there's the personal interviews mass flight, this massive production, I mean As you can see like this is the what we're sitting in our inner recording studio right now which is literally a converted closet issues should be the maintenance caught causative victory emma made fitness, we

eventually made it a little bit bigger than it used to be, but I go their answer that I go. You know right, look how many people and it only puts the audience of your show cause. I was talking to a guy a little bit afterwards and he gave me some number and it was some not big. Number and I was like dang- here's me and echo charles with a thousand dollars, were literally a thousand dollars worth frequent how'd. You spend me first bobby gear one, a thousand dollars out your equipment and our audience was at least twenty two literally twenty times as big as their yeah, and I'm thinking. This is kind of awesome. No yeah, here's these people, they went to school and they got promotion and they're paying the pain peopled listed. Advertisements go on our list of others hype and we're sitting here in a closet a thousand dollars worth of equipment or our audience is at least twenty times bigger than theirs. So I support all of journalism. Yeah, so tell me, take. What am I missing? Well it it is my

journalism. Its academia, because I was also professor, that are you. Make me attack the academic profession. Now that I'm happy to help, but note that you know I basically was making less money a professor with three two books, three books, ivy league, hd. Then I made as construction labour without a high school diploma. Seventeen years old, without it lasting anything for inflation and so what we ve seen in academia is that the money, he's gone to middle management. Every special interest. Group now has a commissar that they go to. Who advocates for them and the student is a customer now, so that's complete, least plain to me: the commissar, the middle here, how that taken money out of the professors? Well, because- professor salaries have dropped ten year.

Disappeared to make way for this managerial, klaus, god, and so the managerial class. You know, will a typically when I first started. I would be the assistant dean for a semester. It was always a professor. Now you have people who are neither scholars nor teachers and- this is this- do you know that I have a phd in education come on? You know you can teach her, you can teach. I can teach you how to teach and is much an art as it is a science and and its depressing frankly, and I dont want to be around it- it's it's not there's just day would yeah that's a whole Well, that's a whole big, well ball of wax, but I was going to college when I went to college when I was twenty eight years old, because I had been in the military and the military sent me to college. I was going to be university of san diego- and I was

class, I had an english professor super nice, professorship recoils me, which major- and She said at the beginning, one of his classes, so I've been in the navy. I had listened to navy when I was eighteen years old and so I'd been in the navy for ten years at that time and the professor Steele was kind of saying: hey, listen, you know here I am a tenured professor, I have a phd in literature, blah blah blah. I went to school and that school, and he wasn't here, I can't afford a house in san diego and some sitting The front row which I always did, I sat the front row of every class just looking at the professors, just like no one else cared, I would line up my pens like in case I had a pen go down, I'd, be ready with a secondary and some say

in the front row and I would I would over I I guess I was being a little bit abrasive little bit abrasive, but what the teachers usually loved me because I was like the all out, most fully engaged and they probably ever had in her life. So I'm sitting in the front row. She gets on with her tirade and I just raised my hand straight up in the air and she's like, and this when I went to college, was the only person in my life that they called me. because that's what was on the rostovs. My real name is John. They call me johnny, never corrected and because I care so she she says yes, John and I said, how long did you go to school for and she goes well, it was tall. I think it was. The total was ten years. You know to get her bop bop that this this this I said. How much did that cost? You and she said we know whatever it was three hundred and eighty thousand dollars or something like this- and I said well: hey I said I enlisted in the? U s navy, when I got done with high school and I've been working the whole time and I have not one houses,

india go but to seek good. So she was so frustrated with that's david, but it's and a true cause. You know she literally spent too. That was what my first two houses in san diego causing, as they cost a little bit more than that, but that was around what the first few hours I in diego. So you know that academic thing and I mean the academic world just seems to be have gone insane am I right absolutely right and- and the thing is- and I've seen this for a long time and spoken out against it for a long time. first amendment absolutist I believe anything short of that is sophistry, that this group gets this level and you, you know any. We come back to to comfort in safe. And psychic down in this and that in all your you can't do you know criticized this group.

because of the psychic damage are inflicting in this, not once you go down that road, you're you're sophistry lane- and I dont want to play that game, and so the eye- Just every one of my friends who are still in academia walk on eggshells and you know they have to watch for the cultural, commissar skies You know, then you have this kind of, star chamber courts where, The student goes to one of them: deeds and says the he looked at me in a way that made me uncomfortable and my responsible. You were born uncomfortable. I can't help you that and Muir level of comfort and my love of comfort aren't the same so there The professor is accused without a hearing with knowing who is accuser is

so. There's no due process, I mean one other cases. My foundation looked into wasn't anatomy professor nay likely shut Michael shyly. He talk. Thirty years at Utah valley, university, president of the universities, sign universities What was it nephew? Canopy Stu gated, a crusade against him because he was his classes were too hard. He didn't put things up on the the right. You know why blackboard minos sort of computers- and and and they could really get him on anything and they again didn't know who he was accused by didn't know what he was accused of and after about six months, he start losing his mind and he blows brains out and then the family suit. The university came out,

that it was. You know that the present and the university intervened on behalf of her nephew, it went all the way to the tenth circuit court of appeals. Now attorney is going for a rid of sir to try to get supreme court to take it up, but the sir, increasingly common situations where you are accused of something and you get to defend yourself, you don't know who your accuser is, and this is a real violation of due process. and I mean I add a situation where I had a female students, and say our. Why was I was I I couldn't do I've been missing the classes or something because I was sexually assaulted. I said: ok, that's very serious. I said: let's I know The? U s attorney in like let's do it. You know if you you got a thing this through. If you wanna, you know, go really do this you go to the us attorney, you don't go or what the da in town you don't

go to some academic bureaucrat that will pollute the case if you want to go after the sky, well, I'm not sure, I'm not sure. I suppose you think about it. Let's talk about it tomorrow, the head of my department. I say this happened older. She needs to go to the authorities. If she serious about it- no, no! No! She has to go to the title. Nine group, and that this, which is an house university, drew judiciary, said no, I don't I don't agree and I am not going to do that and I'm on one semester contracts. So what do you got on me and I, like my department head and I didn't mean to want to make- trouble for, but then I met with this during the next day. I said: ok come on. Let's get in the brass tacks this because if you do go down this road of litigation and all that you're gonna get your pants pulled out, it's gonna be serious and, I said, was or alcohol involved bosnia

Okay, and so anyway, turns out. She drank too much passed out on a couch friends woke but there was one of the roommates had come in and was standing over her and- and you know that could have ended this guy's career. It could have been an incredibly problematic and he wouldn't have known what he was accused of by who or what the extent of ordered hounds what had happened. And so you know again, these things need to be heard out. You can't just take you know every man, and is guilty. Every woman is always right. Life is more complex that I mean I saw professors that married students that are still married. So I don't have a kind of child. Like view of life, I treated my students as adults and I talked to them like adults and I talk to them about their futures,

you know, I would say every student would have to come and meet me in my office and people would say: oh don't ever close your door with female student. So why I'm? You know? I'm married, I'm not like your students, like your kids and I and I would say, what's your major What are you what's your major? What do you want to do? What are your plans? and I want you to do and how much student at you have almost every one of those kids would say. No one's ever asked me that my career, thank you so much no one they ve tried to sell them into a new programme. Oh we got this new graduate certificate and I was like a what a certificate. I said his masters. No, it's a certificate. I so that's it. scam end and so- and I said they paying for you to get this certificate? Oh no. I gotta pay, I said: well, is the professor that's

we need to do it in charge of this certificate programme pay how'd, you know like, and here then hustle then, and so it's a business now, because the universities are competing with each other. You know to get students there. Spending huge amounts of money on gems in vegas food bars and me, you know just right we ancillary staff- you know when I look at it. If you in- gets if you're gonna learn something of value if you're gonna be actually educated, great Knowledge is power and you can, if you can go to go to some event or some school or some university and europe, I learned something here: you'll walk out of there and say: oh, I know how to do this thing now: more power to you, great

but yeah, if you're in there and you're spending money on something that has no value other than the paper that it's printed on, then it's kind of worthless I don't know that. I think that, at times the way, the what what people are taught isn't really a usable skill. Especially the way it's taught isn't really usable skill I mean why this happens with leadership in a lot of theirs. There's universities that offer some kind of leadership training, but it's not actually leadership chart. learn any leadership from it they learn. Some weird abstract theory about leadership, paternal. They don't learn. How led it's. Like you to college, to plague to play guitar, and they never do you qatar to play, you would know how to play. When you got done, you be a little. About it a little bit, but you won't be able to do it, and I see a lot of programs that are set up like that. Where they're teaching you a lot about the guitar and you learn in theory about the guitar, and you know guitar looks like, but you don't know how to play that guitar into a basically what you learned has

was no value, so We offer leadership for me. We and the reason I know this because I teach leadership and we teach them fifty people have gone through big programmes and they don't they'll. Tell us like. Oh, I learned more in the three days I just spent with your company about leadership. Infinitely more we're not close to what I learned in my two year, your masters degree or my mba. They they just don't they're, not doing in the same way. So anything is that's kind of become standard. Sure the standard oh, where we can teach you about the guitar and we can teach you about. fear music theory, and they can teach you about a bunch of different guitars whenever to have a different, come and talk you, Will you have the best we have Eric laughed and come and talk to you and tony? I only it's gonna be great, and that is cool, sounds cool right for you, still don't know how to play guitar right. So we like to get a plane right right, get on that get box by you're playing a high stakes game in your view of leadership, and that

is actually something on the table. Will you you know, and I teach businesses and ensure the vast majority of clients I have now are or look we teach law enforcement, we teach military absolutely but weakened mostly teach businesses, sure business leaders, now business leaders actually do have something real at stake. They got jobs, they got capital, they got safety. That's for sure this is all really important stuff I bought it is derived from the highest of consequence, ensure without question and so because of all these changes are good and bad, maybe mostly bad some definitely good cause. I like I said it's good that Charles and I it in this room with a thousand dollars worth of equipment two way more people than npr yeah. Other cases. You made.

fainting robin foundation so that the the mission is to help out people that need yeah and it grew like it started out professors, journalists, and journalist pushing the anvil upright the real as I get villa me who you know was British newsman of the year testified in the hague found the serb camps in bosnia and the people that are outliers, that or you know the coming into the later parts, their career and you know, have really put it all out. There isn't a kind of cool. Now that you can do that with no without being part of the mainstream media. At all there's plenty of people out there that are publishing. I mean I know you have a substantial church, stop stack, I love subs guy You know, that's away that you can go and you polly. I wish tat, you can publish a staffing get out there. You don't have to worry about then say whatever you aren't. We want yet, but then it grew.

to helping those who can help themselves like a lot of veteran outreach your generation of veterans. Did more heavy lifting. Then you know really any generation, I would say in american history, with the multiple tours with a lot as was asked it. You and I am living in north carolina. There's a lot of veterans and having a high time finding their way after their their time in the service. Many of them and simmer things, helping them find jobs, helping them do things like that more complex things getting amorphous our eyes in them meds and stuff like out those things I candy or yeah. Did you see this? track in its most recent. Stop that they're saying that depression is a chemical and aunts anywhere doesnt work, bazooka big lie, yeah like a thirty year, lie. If you read the second charles

so they used to say: oh you're, depressed okay, it's because you have a chemical imbalance in your head. Take these drugs they'll make you feel better right and now they're saying actually no, it's not a chemical about it. Just like how you're feeling and drugs are can help you then the way that we were saying they were striving for in disturbing ferries. Horror and particularly the side effects, that's very Mr Medina side effects are crazy. and the side effects to that Even when you read the fine print about what it's gonna do to you, there's finer print. it says, like, oh and by the way, if you come off this at this rate- or you makes this with that- it's gonna make you have literal, suicidal ideation tickets, crazy, yeah, yeah. It is and that I am and hickson- and I have been talking a lot about that and and finding the natural ways and I've been. This is some of the things doing but also doing kind of more direct, action stuff. Like a woman friend of affair,

and in santa Barbara sister was murdered in Cambodia. We law an investigation, and it took us about eight years but captured the guy, a new. their guide, the old pot smuggler who did double life's god double life in a billion dollar fine was a big smuggler but all pot and and he did twenty seven years for a conspiracy was not part of what an eye in. I read these things all the drug conspiracy, oh yeah, yeah, and he got out- he got a presidential pardon last year and we were lobbying for that and so things kind of I'm almost like the last resort when everything every other avenues failed. They wind up at my door step, and I can't, all of them. I mean I basically work for my kitchen table and with no office, and but its is remarkable what you can do through persistence and- and I have persistence-

Then you're. It you're one book a book a decade right here definite pursues ass, so there's a war that we got this thread of europe of your writing and his the friend that you porphyry are you know you had the nuremberg trials, this thread kind of leads to war crimes. This war crimes thread leads to Cambodia. The campbell be a thread you, you find the surfers that our rolled up and tortured and killed. That thread leads to thai stick there's another threat that it did something that you workin on now and that's the battle Coating which happened at that at the end of the vietnam war, The commission rouge see a u s and ship, the my request and This is this whole thing unfold, so that so the marines go they recapture the ship

they also assault the island. There's a little island where it looked like the crew of I have a migraine. Has it been taken and so the marines do an assault on the silent wealthiest the island is, it did by the khmer rouge, there's khmer rouge elements on their the the dating No, it's! The marines did no one at the time, but the crew wasn't on that island at all made actually been released and return, but they didn't know they're already in the air they go and assault this. this. I went and actually you gave me like a kind of sort of drafts, your proposal you're working on it, but just read a little chunk of this. This is your latest project. It's gonna be called left behind and again the three is the. How did you get onto the story? You met someone who's on content, you met a cambodian. I met khmer rouge yeah that was on co, Tang yeah They fought against the maria absent

this is what opens up the story for you and you also started hearing about europe track it on the americans that we're in Twenty one, the print the problem here And you were here in that there might have been other americans and where were these other americans and sir, you pulled a threat on this. Yet let me go to this little section here from his trench near the east, beach m song, and it's the visit the cambodian soldier that you met yet so Or sorry khmer rouge, so I have one of a number of em. Some one knife twenty three: that's a helicopter, the next chopper tempting to land fly straight toward him. This one had a big propel we're on top and a small one for steering said psalm. He shouldered his rocket and waited until it was fifty meters away and in his crosshairs. I aim for the head and hit the tail. He recalled the helicopter's tail broke off with an audible snap and now the rudderless age. Fifty three shuddered spawn and crash landed on the beach,

twenty five americans on board were able to escape from the wreckage and find cover so rogers in stretching robes jumped down, said some therewith. exchange of fire. Now do too clouds of thick dust and smoke from the gunfire, the khmer rouge commander could not even see the beach and took a moment to pray to buddha for help. I fighting all my life, but the fighting on oh tank was really terrified the initial for assault on the island had been a debacle in less than one hour, the euro had lost three helicopters and eleven men the young marine, too, had been training in okinawa. Less than forty eight hours earlier were now experiencing combat for the first time, all alone, at seven at only seven twenty a m the longest day of their lives with just beginning on to the americans and cambodians now fighting on co. Ten minutes,

before knife. Twenty one landed on the island come here, rouge radioed announced that they had freed the mike was and her crew even worse, prisoners were not and had never been on the island. Oh bailey was standing waist deep in a committee rouge latrine, almost out of ammunition fighting for his life. He was to see job green forty, three, the big sikorski, H, h, fifty three search and rescue helicopter approach, the land the young marine was even happier. We saw his six foot to to her in fifty pounds, sergeant, foe, folks, sergeant tee. I said it to two to attain the two tele sergeant sergeant tee to telly. work on the beach with mortar rounds exporting around him. Like a comic book, superhero sergeant. I stepped out of the helicopter and was like. Let me get this shit under control. It was a walk in the

hark to him. He was ready to conduct business, recalled bailey. He was like a pig staff parent who had just found someone had used his kids. born and raised in american samoa. Man. How do you say his first name photo just leave it. You gotta, you got the full name here fulfilment who golly something to alike to legally we tell ye better known as full fo move to hawaii ten and join the marines at eighteen. He spent his first torn nineteen sixty seven as a scout sniper hunting vietcong in the jungle during his second tour. He fought, in July case on in the battle of way and was awarded two presidential sites, unit citations for extraordinary heroism and abroad star after two tallies,

request for a third tore was denied. He became a platoon sergeant with second battalion night greens and it be training our bailey squad when he received word that training was over and that he will be leading them into combat for the first time. Although the soft spoken samoan treated, his men well, he'd made quite an impression on his charges in okinawa when he broke up a fight between a black and white marine by placing each of them. In had locks. He shouted means don't fight marines. for false smashed, their heads together and knock them fun, conscious, nobody, and I mean nobody ever challenged. Him said bailey this mandate hilda, rack of vietnamese. You could see it in his demeanor the way carried himself. When sir can t spotted his marines comp together on the west, BT ran toward them shouting. What the fuck are. You guys doing, com now down and listen for four worked his way up and down their wine, giving orders and words of encouragement. Finally,

the baby and said only fire when the helicopter comes in, don't waste ammo? the trail. Any these bastards costs cross the trail blow their ass away. Many good his m16 and said I'm gonna. Take care of this machine gun problem. No shooting until I get back and vanished into the jungle for four walked carefully int under the canopy. Until we heard an incoming american helicopter, then he said and listened. The samoan saw some branches move. Then he spotted too Bear chested cambodians with red, chequered scarves around their heads adjusting of big gun. We may be, in firing at the helicopter. He shouldered his weapon but could not get a clear shot because the foliage, so we walked all the way to the edge of the machine gun nest and opened fire by the time. Fo fo it emptied his one magazine. One magazine why come here: ruse soldier lay dead and another was wounded, but still alive. Rather than reload. The marine picked up a nearby machete hack, the wounded

and until we stop moving then grab there a k, forty seventh cigarettes, canteens and sandals ass, he worked his way back toward the west beach. He saw another occupied bunker, open fire and ran towards it the time the samoan reached it, the bunker was empty, but a fire. still burning a pot of rice cooking, There was a fresh blood trail leading into the jungle, so This is some serious scrapping that these guys are going through and. Just going through some of the events that took place by zero by zero, seven hundred there's a hundred and marines on the island. Three of the helios. There was eight he, those used in the assault free of were destroyed on the insert

between zero, nine hundred and ten hundred two hundred additional marines had been landed on the island. Nine had been wounded. And those guys had been evacuated which met there was about to earn twenty five marines on the island, they make their fight and throughout the day they make. Multiple attempts to extract the marines they drop at eighteen. Hundred at night they drop a freakin, who eighty two massive bomb its they called? It easy cutter. I is a massive bomb crease or mushroom. Its huge after dark when we start to get extracted their loading halos under fire. They leave, dead behind They also leave with a false headcount meaning, I think that they have everyone, but they don't. We find get back on the ships. You know- and Now they do a head count of alleged. Yet headcount and if they figure out that their missing landscape for Joseph Hargrove pfc

recall in private, Danny Marshall,. and then they received a radio transgression, from those guys like one aircraft circling overhead receives radio transmission, saying hey swim to see what we'll get you and take risks Only one of us only want the marines could swim effectively enough this actually swim to see an end. These guys get declared missing in action on July when he first nineteen, seventy six, those were changed to killed in action. Way it turned out Joseph our grove was captured pretty quickly. He had a leg wound and then a week later You go through the details. Even in this, I want to know We have put a whole book together on this and will have to we'll have to cover the podcast now, and I hope we can get full phone here to get it done. That's the plan You know cause, I know, there's and you talk about it here, but

is he received the navy cross blackrock than they know he received, he got up was interesting because on it's the marine was very low or metal, and I had a general look at the whole paperwork and the secretary of the navy had signed it and he the only reason the secretary of the navy would have ever even seen. This was because he was either up for the navy cross her the congressional medal, so one of the one of the lieutenant scott, the navy cross for doing nothing close to what for taylor had done. an end, even one of the things I ve been trying to do is get them the vietnam service, metal and tossing albert and mark meadows had tried to do it. In two thousand, sixteen and the official government, position was well. You know the yard.

The vietnam war ended when the paris peace agreement was signed in eighteen. Seventy three! So this isn't the vietnam war. I mean their names or on the wall. So it's it's a very strange case and I think, here's, institutional embarrassment, as I did straight there there's also knowledge that those men were left behind and I think what it's motivated me on this cases is how heavily that's weighed on those marines and those who knew that and were ordered not to talk added as well, and so I look at their reunion this, but may- and you know this something that you know many of these. guys have been back to Cambodia? They ve met with em song. They pleaded with him where their bodies- and you know- and I do they ve sent

Pierre W. Am I a guys from camp smith there to do that. The motor car dna and it's you know. I think that the forty Illustration acted very badly. I think that they already had it planet on the new york times as america's back, and that was that As you know, the height of our impotence is so this is: may fifteenth nineteen seventy five. This is two weeks after the fall of Saigon yeah One thing that makes it so it will then in again that you ve got some of the details, even that that I read here. Just it you get used to this kind of incompetence in vietnam now by either the general. The politicians, mcnamara l, b, J, like you jesse used to this disgusting lack of ability to make decisions and lead and not be influenced just by raw paul,

takes on a daily basis, just disgusting and then What's interesting about this, this is like one incident and since it's a little bit separated and you got it indifferent ministration, you go. Oh it's, the same incompetence and you just see these decisions getting made in these cover. Ups are happening. It's just grow skiff its gross. Of course, it's the freakin man on the ground, the marines that pay the pay, the ultimate price for these horrible decisions. I mean you've got a section in there about the seal commander. Yeah amazing, yeah, who's like this is total bullshit he's calling it good for him and yeah Tom coulter. And he basically a face down the admiral and said ok, I'm gonna leave room on front of my zodiac for you and your officers, and you can go on that island with me and they were not honest with him either and they said all we want to drop leaflets, and this is kind of you know they had the lithographer aboard

one of the navy ships print ten thirty alison cards. Cambodia, french and english saying bread. All the americans to the helicopter wreckage, including the dead ones. So that does lead you to believe they knew that these guys were behind. I left behind. I have no doubt they knew and and and again was already on the cover the new york times and the press attempt- and you know the pit tours of Kissinger rumsfeld and ford in touch see those smoking cigars and you know it's it's the careless as if the human material, you know, that's the part to me that is so galling and a and a and you as the war on terror, you no kind of pushed forward see it more and more just by adler used people lives destroyed. Unnecessarily war is war, but you know there is a kind of carelessness that only people who risk

I think we're never gonna be near it, who have never felt the hard hand of it or see me aftermath of it. The did that they can. They can entertain these fantasies and do it without rights. More send do it over and over again. Yeah I mean you found out through Europe use. Joseph Hargrove, like I said, was captured with a leg wound and executed pretty quickly yeah, but it was a week later yeah that they captured gary hall danny Marshall, so those guys we're on the island. You got massive american forces around there. That could have done any number of things to try get those guys out and they just go and they want, and so you had, the marine officers want volunteered to go back the seals one or two go back. I think pjs had gone back to thailand, but their wayne fiscal, unbelievable pga, was on the sandy raid and you know, the apollo missions. I mean he

You know you had all that all the people ready to do the heavy lifting without any qualms about doing it and and just steamed away and left him. You don't let them behind gone and you know and that's they were stealing rice from the canaries and so basically they finally saw boot ants going into their kitchen cause every day. The canaries- hey, why did you eat after over rice, I don't need the left over rice know you, you know so their fighting about this and then the get. They got em som and that this same accounts of the rice missing is happening over and over. So then they say: ok, there's still two guys here. So, let's up an ambush. They capture them coming at night to get the rice and their at this point so physically down. They don't even bother to tie them up and in fact, occur the canaries. They made them rice and made them food and they just waited further.

Orders and then they sent them to the mainland. Then they were put in prison than they were in probably interrogated and and executed, so where's that what the status of this book right now You know protein years, it's been more than ten years, It's it's a high hard sell in it's funny. That's going! Oh, you know we don't want. other book about the vietnam war. That's my age was saying- and I said look this is, and this is about this- about. You know no man behind this is as old as warfare. This is a much bigger kind of theme so we'll see outdoor peck away on it yeah, there's not much interest in the vietnam war, not that much interest in this subject. What's up What's causing the lack of interest in the vietnam war, I think there were too many books. Initially, there was just a big spate of books and its

publishing now in publishing, isn't doing well in everybody's nervous economies going funny it's well! That's one of the reasons for that as you can a book with no yet look by herself. Yet you know echo charles could published a book in yeah literally published a book in a week, and it could be available on amazon and it could have, which is eighty five. of book sales or amazon sheriff right now, and you say so, echo charles could write a book about bicep girls that, sets out your area of expertise and he could have it published immediately and he could have access, to eighty five percent of the market, which is a pretty unbelievable thing. She, and so yes, the publishers are definitely scared about that. But I need to go back. I gotta go back to Cambodia. Do some more interviews in would you agree to make you made that much effort? You ve made this much effort now you and makes it more effort, will what, if, no, if you

although she doesn't want to publish what it can do, get a policy yourself church eventually, but You know I'm bob like three job so it's you know it's a. I We have to write a lot of stuff to pay the bills, and then I would you normally right to pay the bills logic striding some screen writing yeah you written any screenplays that we've seen. No, not yet nothing. You know it's hollywood, where everything almost always happens I rose. I co road, the screenplay for the hickson movie and I m coming that battle, with netflix has now netflix dissolved all taken on water and they're, all pantry and I wrote a couple of pilots for the thai stick tv series. I write real hellish later by the the rights to thai. Stick. He ready it, but then he fumbled em

yeah. He had a deal with sony and then it says hollywood and its its chief. makes the dio de seem pa the tivoli efficient, safe. Go on though or two with like hollywood, because if you want to, you could a movie you can post on youtube and see happens. Well, thing is like that x and movie is remarkable because it starts with my EDA. So it starts eighteen. Ninety in japan, and in my aida, is an unbelievable guy. Coming he's price is fighting all over europe. He comes, the united states like in the twenties he's prize fighting in the south, he's he's going to west One last point: yeah and many fights like one. The gangs in new york, guys in brooklyn and and then he goes to cuba. Then I think we think he's the guy who invented the mexican wrestling mask is no one would find him.

and then wines up in brazil with meets the graces and then that's where the second part of the story goes and behold If the did narcos who's from Rio grew up, you know around hicks. and the graces is dead, actor, so it ain't rocket. Science That's a no brainer, yea and your kind alike so I would, I think, you're right I mean I that's what I told Joseph padilla. The director I was like go get some private equity people. I mean this, isn't that tough, a business case to make come on? it's like a crazy special effects movie or anything either like it's, not gonna, be a huge budget. Film it'll be it's big like in on. You got some great fight, you know like helio fighting on camera camorra. They also have hit the black panther his former student, ok, terror. You know the three, our forty eight minute fight and anxious classic stories that hickson talks about, like as his childhood and

and so all that in there- and it's just you know you It see a real in the seventies and you know, as our frame yeah drugs is being wrong of beating our fight, yeah, yeah, and so what's not too like yeah, so they'll saturn us I just like when I write something for hollywood. I write it and I forget, and my mom. Luckily, I grew up around this and I agree I grew up on the set of robert all movies and all that was all in often was put his house on the line to pay for that movie and There is none of this committee. The decision like the greatest oxymoron I've ever seen is what they call in hollywood, a creative executive and dumb and So you go to these meetings about meetings and an there anybody as and I get in trouble because I'm not nice enough or whatever

Then I'm not really loud. You gotta meetings, anymore and dumb, but the best meeting we had was we went in to ted, surround us owner of netflix his office and Michael, author mike ridder glass like a high, half a pound, a weed in nineteen seventies, single fin pen tail, and we had the thai stick cover on top of it. and I pulled out a rubber mallet and a chisel rip the dac off of it and put it upon a weed and an abalone shell and pushed into tat surround us again there. It is it's all yours, ted Israel is like that No, I'm not taken aback leave it. your commissary whatever, and so I left in a bunch of wheat netflix, while hopefully, some of those please get eventually made man sounds like good stuff.

Gotta houses up today, yet we made it. We made it through your life to this. What do we missed? Anything not mean yeah, but no, I think we got most. sailing points, there are high points here. People can find you at waiting, robin dot org. If they want to support that, you ve got your sub stack, which is he'd require dot. Sub stack, dot com, sour and its peter mcguire's, sour milk. What's that the title about wiser, called sour milk cause, I'm sour milk, I'm a fifty seven year old, like guy, you got your book. Law and order. we're sorry long war facing death in cambodia, thai stick and then the book that I covered on podcast through ninety three, I think with dixon gracie the book is called breathe. I wrote the phone.

and you did a great job, and that was the best interview anybody did on that whole book to her. Oh well appreciated in absolutely absolute honor to be able to write that ford. When you hit me up I was like you know: can you It can you write afford. Firstly, let me think about that. For yes, I can thank you there, that's just it great book and and and now you're working on a follow on book with. Yes, yes and yes, What's the premise the follow book with hickson, it's called invisible, jujitsu, an invisible sheets yeah. It's there's a lot: about jujitsu in fighting, but there is also a lot about life and a lot about people dealing with problem. Then you know similar to the things you talk about and how the answer can be found in a pill or a shrink, and that you know you you kind of have to. Do you know their sections on strategy there sections on,

things hickson talks about generally, but then I make him. You know: delving two in much greater detail, and so I think people will find it very useful for their daily lives trying to get paid, kind of back in their bodies and their heads, and I think, there's really something to that. and we ve been teaching a lot really civilian unasked letting people, really really basic jujitsu. And how someone's walking indy. What do you do? You know you? Let him closer distance, do so coming back to the old self defense jujitsu and a very fundamental level, and- and I have all these kind about a shape, civilian students have been testing it on and they come every week. Nato love it. Even though I'll drink twenty beers afterwards in getting more out of shape but but now they want role in their rolling, and I gotta be careful that they don't get hurt, concern not in the best shape, but

you really see the change on them, as we have all seen when jujitsu it does change people you, I think one thing with dixon is like you you're too so much a part. of him that there's you you can have to tease down it's like the waters of the water that he lives and right, and so you are, now the water tastes like that fish story, right house, the. What's the water they like, what what's water yet so you you pulling out because my eye, I connected so many things in my life because it jujitsu it may all the all the tick your start to become assimilated. into the same world. that was you absolutely huge for me, and so I think that you know you pull the strings on on hickson were here talk about heap here. Such a decision in life without thinking about it. because such as who he is. But if you

saying hey. Why did you make that decision and why would you do it that way and then you can you'll start to see it. You'll start seeing will all start to see that the jujitsu will like he talks about acceptance, You know any he'll use these words and you think it's kind of a new age thing acceptance that forgiveness and say what you mean acceptance as well. When finicky bro my orbital bones in my eye socket. I had to accept the fact that I couldn't see, and I was gonna have to fight and blind, and I was figuring, How are we going to fight and blind, and I can't I had a plan, but then I got a little bit of vision back and I took him down and you broke his knee and then then choked unconscious and so So it's funny because, like you said to kind of force him to really elaborate on some of this stuff, the well as deep yeah, no doubt Also man, echo many cos You have your blackmail. Yes, when did this happen

for thirty years. I got it I dunno two months ago or something oh. They just got black belt. My black belt in gi can do but yeah I was a purple belt. I think seventeen years. Why only would take belts from hickson so and I didn't I'm not out here all the time so do you're a black belt snob. Listen to these guys that I'll take a black vote from Grazie. That's it yeah. he's miles, makes sense, though bs started with the accent and then you know, like all your knowledge and select a lot like from hickson and then what some other kind of slides and yes, like you, know, drain with hands. Oh too, but you know it just was different. You know, hickson and I dont her, I trained with the law. How much you turn revenge or not it's because I was a daytime guy, so I train with daughter. Her and John was a white bell, my madame, when it was a white belt. I was a professor at columbia when he was a graduate student and so are you guys knew each of oh yeah. We're broke yeah, oh yeah, and he would caught around me

for Cambodia. You now saw just like take these horrible donner beatings for a month, so that nothing was really that bad in cambodia, the legionnaires and stuff that didn't know jujitsu so our so will you there, when he quit being whenever he was being at columbia, and he just yeah yeah yeah yeah. And yet and he I was getting threatened by the serbs, and I was putting on this conference and I had all these big richard goldstone. chief prosecutor in the hague and this and that and so John Donner and parading milo kickboxing coach came as the under cover. Security and just shadow? These deserves the old times. It was pretty funny, but yeah John down are actually came to my wedding and worth three peace suit. He didn't where lycra did he ever did he ever but tack on, a daughter, her was, he was he's a classic guy.

We had a lot of fun and Mr Hughes, I could. I could really plumb the depths of my cynicism with honour. Well, he's been asking the watch him and his team manners dominating gadget to its frequency Well he's I mean he's real sharp guy and and you know on some love, I think a taste saw my academic. He saw my academic career and was no way man from china to jujitsu, reprehensible and hands and on her came to one of my classes at columbia and always teeth about to Japan and the samurai in the snow at a student go, and I don't think it's appropriate for you to to get into these core of these cultural stereotypes about the happening is warrior culture they had almost twenty years of weimar, like democracy is very bad lands.

And I think that was probably the day- we're not gonna hurt aside, can recover faster, yeah. Well, he's a perverse, go digital, oh yeah, I'm sure he is the kind of wild if you you've heard the story that, like you, do, mr as Geoffrey, and he that conversation with dina is kind like this mythical thing. Now right is a little bit of a mythical thing that dean said your dean was get catching. I d south tells it super humble you all he's doing ok with my leg locks training with some of the foods, which means people which gives good cap n bill I can tell you are an extra he's me out. One million times and I have seen it we used to do you know dojo, storms and all that stuff, and even just tournaments. You just for log leg, lock everybody when by other methods, because his whole game of jujitsu, but it's kind of wild. You know, like donner, her was asking him like yours. It said something like you know. You spend a lot of time on the you know, going for people's legs and and dean Lister said: why would you ignore fifty percent

the human body and that's become this there. But it's if you think about the the the sharpness of of I heard a hear that girl. That's a really good point. Yeah, that's a really good point and deal with the deep No deep wasn't like if you idea that dean was had a couple? walks in his game and that's what no dean was way deepen. He looks for locks. he was way deeper. That I mean so far, deep into it? That people have- we caught up with. I think it's been now it's about a year and a half when dean. I would I came out as dean like have you seen anything you didn't know yet it was like a year and a half ago again now they're starting to do things that I dunno, but that was all- long time where dijon just way above or below, but it is amazing that dahmer her heard that saw what he did and said. Oh yeah, there's something going on here and, of course, now we have PETE the greek whose yet

he's a risk locker, and he says what. Why would you ignore? I personally visually, why my train with labelle, also all hell yeah inside try, met him a few times and he's scary end, and so I have his book. You know he's got a big book. Apparel wrestling finishing holds that one yeah guess as on refugee, has never want to get a big giant book by judo de la belle, and it's all these crazy finishing calls. It also got like we're like you, us kane, and how you can. I ask him with a cane and all the other stuff. Why grew up? Why king him, Luther libra caky television la hungary is- and you know that wrestling at the olympic and genes. Brother was the announcer and then gene the hangman jean was like three different mass guys and and then you know, when you train with them, he goes into character.

At you in some horrible weird neck twist meal. I goods the most beautiful banner in the world and gazed scary guy. He Juno Jeanne, the bell has to be one. The pre mere guys in and for whatever reason it like, didn't, make it out the graces did the most incredible job of marketing, jujitsu by creating the you have see. Yes and jean the bell had some and they may fight soya and he It was a big for he revenue key and all oh, yes right, a nokia. He refereed that fight. But again it wasn't. Quite it didn't we get over the hump? Maybe you have see what made it over the hunt because the forty two brothers. It was banned everywhere and the convention I picked up, but man Judas. the bell.

if he was a legit submission grappler before that was even a thing. While he was a a? U wrestling, champ god what a piece he was all japan, judo champ at some point. First America, yeah and his mom, I think owned the olympic audit forum or ran at something like that, so he grew up. Training would like ed, strangler, louis legit catch wrestling, yeah yeah, the catch as catch can guy. So he I didn't know anything but, like you know, real nasty, old fashion submission grappling and dumb and yeah. Then you I got to go to his cabin. hi elevation and you shop there like ten at night and was it a big bear some yeah and you train to like three in the morning, and it was me keep ready and John Lewis and I and and we walk in and his wife says. Oh hi boys and John louis is so nervous. He goes

it's nice to know you and then and there's a loft, and we hear this booming voice from the loft. How do you know- It's nice to know, or you just and so but he actually served with lord tally. Hubley yours, who was the old announcer for pro surfing, who is a whole arrests, are in hawaii. So intaglio Blair's, took him a car like a big day, unlike labelling, got his front teeth knocked out. Jeanne was terrified of surfing so like, and I was surfing alot of big waves, then, and I must set a picture something. So I wonder This kitchen table like talking doom, it's about surfing for hours. and he was very close to the machado said- and I think you know, Jacques Machado is one of the guys who has impressed me as much as anyone or even hickson, I've- been able to train with him the last few years and that's been great and

he's a really nice guy and that's a book I'd like to write Would it went about jean Jacques because being born were due to dream about both better, but I think genes, a little more plays it close to the vast. but John jacques born with one hand and becoming you know one of the best of all time and turning Andy cap into an advantage is so remarkable story any again. He saw a great teacher You run into the armenian crew lawyer, golkar yeah, yeah yeah. This is like a whole time why oh yeah dean and we're going up there and, like those guys were we we did matches in these underground places, there is one place called neutral grounds. It was in some terrible part of I lay in like there was people's everywhere and there was no light disease just may have, but it's hard to explain that to people that there lived through that the pre came

in times I thought and killed an armenian one time like the guy these guys not tat. No, I mean they were. It was a life or death scenario: vietnam and they were too we obviously tough as hell and any didn't, They may also knew they were also for walking in new, oh yeah. There they were all linked in with you dodging the bowser is may have gone up their socio, sometimes nationalism, There were some mob definite chaos. between jujitsu- and I guess sambo- maybe a tragedy. You tournaments, yeah, would be mayhem, but it was one good way to start to learn things. Everybody got a lot better, fast, yeah! No doubt about it! Now, it's like you, you gotta, just have an open mind with everything yeah. You know you gotta, keep that mind open, anyways man yeah

Things were more question here: mercosur, realign back to tahiti right you're, talking about a goose who's, the guy, her husband, a sugar daddy, from paris landed from paris, brutal shut up unannounced, Insert smell in the sheet celebre day of the year is out outweigh passport, whereas yeah. Where is it It's probably the most everything you've done, that might have been the closest to death. You bet and then back to your weed or selling dlc. You said you didn't like to do the small stuff not only do like bigger like what. How does that work? Where would you get it from or whatever from the older guys who were smuggling it? Okay, so to deal with like, though, yeah, but they were guys. I knew from surfing. It was very small, closed loop was and they would what sell it to you and yet utility piano base, they didn't want exposure didn't want people come into my house or whatever it was just go to make donaldson

bring in the duffel bag and they leave with the duffel bag. Or you know you usually, but the Crenshaw stuff was she'd sit on the front porch and you know that was a trip. That was a whole another world, What what going on well that was It was just out in the You know in, and I had a I had a white mustang gdp and when that white mustang gdp pulled up like line, would form a people come in for all walks of life all ages, everything and I remember once these cars claims, creeping up, and I was like all man, it's a drive by and and they get out in the just rob the Crenshaw high school, marching band. And so they have sounds like you're gonna trombone. So there try to run up on on the porch of the palace, where I am too stash the stuff and my

buddies mom comes out. No, no! No! They are not put not here. So I get that should not at this moment, is like ten guys walking down there. We would like Crenshaw cougars bidding the drama do stuff. I go man, yes, I I I What the truth is always stranger than fiction. You know it really is, and it's just you know how much money is when you went on your eight or nine month trip to australia and southeast asian. What how much money you said you had your bill. How much money do you have in your bank? Account you rolled out, probably like twenty grand or something that's like more than enough linear every year and my rent in australia was like three hundred australian a month right across the street from little grass trailed abroad. Can head point and in all go to the party, and You know, play pool the afternoons near. It was great and

yeah and then the the banquet for this The contest, if you surf contests, always had to culminate with a I wild wild west fight And I and the bond- I guys real bad asses, so aunt and the bond I guys would come up and it was the big one was sky, easter, classic and so we're all in that and then then some guys from malibu came and they did slam dancing at the is at the war banquet in oz, aussies thought they were fighting and it turns into the gnarly wild wild west brawl. You ve ever seen and yeah and and one of the American got his lips split bed and bid cysts comes with the term, and I love the aussies still tom, still friends with all those guys. I was lucky enough to go down there for a bit and dumb it was.

of the places where our like me, I went to damn new sir melias water that places ridiculous earlier no but see, then I started going to west australia and that's gnarly and by then I was pretty good and jujitsu and they called me human, not and I and my friends, boats like four brothers and there the best guys at Margaret river. So I stay with them, but I would first have to line of all up on the lawn and beat all of em just get it over with, and I would also have a mouthpiece with me anytime. I went out, and so and they worked. These are hard guys. They worked all day on the black top shoveling black and and the father was a treasure on our deep sea diver. They were also commercial fishermen and come home and their little council worker outfits. Short, shorts and the on brother, who is the whip?

yes, one, but he was in a natural and jujitsu, so suddenly he's whipping the brothers having kicking ass, his whole life, and these I and he's really looks scared. I what's wrong with Jake. He goes cousin database. Crook with you like. Hasn't dave honour, your cousin dave. I got what are you going many of us will I gone and shown him that choke in here No separate chokes gonna work on me, so I'm gonna shoot, but but I forgot to town to tempt me leg he's gone unconscious on the jobs side. So then I'd go! these parties and like cousin, Dave wanna, give me the king here, which is the sucker punch so you're, having like always back battened law and watch out for cousin day so and then, there is a gentleman's night at the mark- reverse board riders club, which was you know, an endless glue ass, a beer for three hours, then the fully naked stripper

first and then the motorcycle club crash that party to fight with the surfers them in and then I this is like a normal ones, and I know this big event and so no so we're there and beauty stumble drunk in true austrian fashion and the whole front window shatters makes the bike easy the bike keesar here, so they spill out near some fighting with the motorcycle guys and then I'm thinking like ike, really stay vertical. But if I jog slow, it's a lot better. Some kind of jogging slow and and and and then I see a cop and, unlike all man, I gotta, the cops can get me for public drunkenness or something. And then I could lost and now I'm in west was drafted its two in the morning and then I sort of get my bearings again MIKE. Ok, I can see where I'm staying. Going down the main drag a martyr river and ah there

like a crazy australian vietnam, vat who lived in the park and all he did was march with this big staff on its head. And do push shops and body weight exercises in it was a monster. and I'm lurking in the shadows- and I hear this- I say all say: use gaiety cat come on skating, can't, cannot fly and- and I go down one block and there's like three blocks to my place, where I'm staying put my mouth peace in- and I just start running and unlike kay its football time, and he didn't do anything, but then I wake up. next day I'm so hung over my wife says all let's go, breakfast is ok. You may you did this beforehand so check my wife snarly end, and so I take like too. steps and run back throw up, and I said I just got to go to the beach and get in the water and it'll be better like just. Let me get in the water, So you go to a martyr. Every gotta go down this long staircase, then there's a big

each with some rocks and numb with walking with my wife and I get half way down the beach from like in my just peels off like she's, never see me in my life, there's like what twig, I'm trying to hide under an puke and all the oz are up on the thing watching the whole thing, and now it's when they're like that pay to talk plug in that's like Australia. You have to do that. You know what year did you get married? Two thousand. wait a second. So this was I was married yang, wordy I address. You gave your wife yeah. That was hurt. That was now invite all our lives. Are those your courting process little time and up wedge island at the lobster camp? She like that, a lot more. She from urged south he's from Virginia in florida, but a real southern where are you when did you meet her blind eight new york city.

in ninety five thank somerset. again. How would she would she doing down ass? This was happening in Australia. Like me, No doubt eighty five. Now this This would have been about. Probably ninety, seven or eight or somewhere around then also your access one man doing it yeah. I thought this is what you are eighty, but in Australia you say: oh well, that was back then everybody's old now, and these guys all have kids and all that and then they're still down the pub. Oh, no and then the two brothers that night went home and got in a fistfight with each other. on the way home, and then they had to drive like four hours to pursue in the car one with a black eye them not to King has been kids in the back and can the stasi way That's how we roll, I guess, awesome man. Thank you appreciate you coming on thanks thanks for joining us thanks for sharing your experiences.

thanks for reminding us that life's a story. at any rate not gonna. Go live at the out, so good lesson for all of us here: go out there and live thanks joining us man. Thank you and with that Peter maguire has left the building. Echo charles surfing Fujitsu academia, genocide going on in there yeah definitely an interesting path, and- and it's a good thing to remember that when you're on a path you can step off the path and go into different direction. If you know this, isn't I'm not talking about the I'm not talking about the path right countenance capital to the area we do want. You could be going one lane of the road- and you could get often go down a differently and it was kind of hard to

veda spent a lot of stuff was happening in in peters. Life was happening at the same time, he's doing jiu jitsu he's gonna. Cambodia he's writing about this. He still prevent, like you too, I want to stuff was used living. It was happening parallel in his wife, so that is definitely something to remember it sometimes I think people feel stuck in a rut. and the reason they feel stuck in a rut is because their staying in the rapid therein and you don't have to sacrifice everything to go and you don't put an or toe the water over here to test the waters over there you can would you can go and tragedy to class? You can go and take a guitar class. You can go in do some research about? Something that you don't know much about? You can go and interview people ask: what does it cost to interview? Somebody has a cost. Anything go, learn a lot of opportunity out there minnows

Sizzle surfing is one of those things juices like this too, but surfing is a big one, and you see you see movies about his or whatever, and that the indian idea of the endless summer or you're chasing like what essentially are chasing waves right. You can go ahead and set one point break. point. Bray hardly saw that that's where they basically compare in my mind, ray kurzweil. My break is essentially parts of it anyway for sailor, robbing stories instead of smuggling drugs, but exactly right, but it's the same. gig. You know words like I'm just gonna make as much money as it can as fast and sought after work grandma, even though he was working on the jobs, but still the idea is there where there are probably the bank to us and then to surface skydiving stuff, the rest diamond, that's kind of the dream or destroy the teams, but here is the point within and actually you're right, you're right, where. If you go around the world chasing ways. Where are you you'll just by incident. Fine,

yourself indifferent, interesting situations where you'll learn new things meet new people. Have all these like varying levels of craziness experiences and then that builds on itself, bring you, you know how you like one experience with this experience. Put together, like all. That's also introduces like that is well where What most people don't travel around? Just doing you just do. Sometimes you do sometimes, and actually I had that experience on a small degree when I was traveling around during filming jujitsu, but else I would train too so that I met at that time, all the main guys. Indeed, we were clear, calm treat they beeper built in brown belt. So it's like the perfect guy for them, the train with because I'm usually their size or whatever. Not good enough enough. it's easy to eat? It's kind of. They can beat me up at the same time and then give me the experience of their gym and all this stuff. It's like hospitality thing. It was perfect, so I got that trance freaking everybody that is, and then you get all these experiences, and now you know them all

He knew all these people. Supposing you know like all of these people and he knew them all, but it's because of that same concept. Where he's like he's going around chasing waves, you know one hickson, zero, cal ticket jujitsu class, or what and I'm gonna meet this guy. I know this guy, it's kind of crazy. How many like that, for one level action to John Donna. Her then dont honour the deed. Mr Hu Jia, judo gene labelle, you Eric pot like all these are these. Are the pre mere people that brought the sport to what it is. You know I mean I mean. Obviously, you ve got hickson an orwellian, an alien like a fish. but then you have all like the second jen people that work. nothing. It's just it just in boosting how it's all connected, and it seems, I guess, It seems it more interesting to make it easier to such a big part of my world. You know takes up a big part of my world fix a big party, your world, and

but still like the connection between, like John down her hands oh gracie, hicks gracie peter Maguire Jeanne the bell like this just wildness its wildness. So I say you! I heard this some expression about like. If you want to be a writer. Well, What's the best thing to do, if you want to be a writer, go live, that's a great advice You will be right or go live summit Ask me yesterday when I was a oh yeah, when we were up yesterday I got asked: are you ok, I always want to be a writer like nope now written? I think eleven books, but I didn't like I was Oh I'm gonna be a writer. I was gonna, be a commando and then happenest are writing, but that's a good start in the amazon, you have to be a commando, but maybe you're going to be of a damn jujitsu.

player or maybe you're, going to be a surfer or maybe you're going to be anything, go out and be something you have something to write about at least take risk to lose? Was quarry said about being careful, careful gets you kill careful gets you killed the air yet carefully. Careful kills, but also therefore prevents life prevents living and look. I'm not saying people obviously go on you don't hear, but donor, but dont, let caution guide your every move, we'll take risks, take risks. We can be out there get gettin after it mother. does it? Is it smart to smuggle pot? No its? Not, but is it martin hair, I dont have too much money, but I got enough money to get down there. You know down to Indonesia Margaux servant, I'll call, you know produced done, legal shit, but man, roll the dice a little bit go, get after it a little bit yeah it's going to be good for you, yeah, it's almost like within

certain certain threshold psyche yoke? That's the best thing you can it actually do for yourself within reason, so sure if you would look at it and be like hey, this is dumb. This is a dumb move. You know, illegal stuff merely falls within that category. Whatever then, okay, that exclude that everything else should kind of be in play and when you think about it does in between the and, of course, an on one superficial and you've got a cool story that is unsupervised but like all the stuff, you learn whether you're successful or not. It's like brother stuff, you learn, you'd, be surprised. How valuable that ends up becoming the up go? Get some experience. Go live a little bit stressed the recommendation. but the other thing it's represents. Not to you know you can be I'm fifty. I still need to go out there and after a little bit more. I take a little bit more chances in the world. I will say it maybe maybe disagree, but I would say

gets harder and harder, though, as well get to you know, take on more of fixed responsibility. That is true. That's a one hundred percent, true from a financial thing, but I'm not even at also in other ways. It comes easier cause. Are you got money like remember? When you had no money and you you know, you are working as a wherever I almost feel like, and maybe I guess it depends on the circumstance, but I almost feel like when you have no money, it kind of pushes you to have to do more stuff or you know. So if you have money I'll, just pay for or just whatever, whatever whatever kind of a thing where it's like things, a lot easier, and I thought this to work. You know like one.

Think back to the times when you don't make any money. It's like what what was the difference cause twenty years? I was in the navy, yeah but think about it. There are certain parts say that, but you know what I at the time and you've heard me say this like I was the richest guy in the world me and my friends in the er. We thought we were the richest guys, the world we have so much money, young, single guy, five frog man gets all in your position to get a lot of stuff paid for right by the name. You know like well, suits right, yelling on love spread and that's a huge deal. Yeah yeah yeah people would want to spend money on either batteries toilet paper, So that's literally, if my buddy had it for you went through his house. You know, like the big industrial toilet paper, rolls that are like a foot across that that's what they had in the seal teams and this dude had it at his house outside pro or you're, a savage it wasn't even a papers. I totally have ever taken them the freedom. All of that will probably last like six months. Here's

They were year, here's the thing and actually, which is part of the fraud, waste and abuse by the way. You're always abuse rapporteur is though those things in life costs money, and if you don't have a lot of money like certain parts, little little tiny part of life that all are then there's a lot of them to a lot of every day. All day those little part of life are hard like therefore that you're taking toilet paper from your cousin batteries- bad, when kind of an unlimited supply batteries in the seal, Delia, oh yeah, any kind of rigorous tape, why were you or gaff tape sure yeah that stuff You gotta guys you go s house, there's a friggin prick! there's a box of rigorous tape just in case of five fifty court. Some wanted to be their nylon so think about this, let's say: listen you don't get free, riggers, deepen toilet paper and yet Hotels has to stay in here. My pretty, and if you have

If you have money Oregon, you get that stuff free, it's kind of like it makes things so much easier, but it keeps you in a little bit more of a box than if you did it so literally this summer, due to bumps or bottom whatever I don't have like. I don't sell weed, I don't rob banks I get abnormal. I have to get a normal job, that much money, but I wanna go to australia. First off unexplained, first ass in this cosy thing unknown. Bothering me I might right in the cargo part and then story or whatever, but in you being coach, whenever you gonna meet some weird dude or maybe or maybe some weird girl is something like this re. There. You gotta australian aid to search for a place to stay. The is not taking care of the adventures. You know exactly right many adventures because you gotta you gotta like do you gotta struggle for everything and- and it becomes more of a thing if you have money just like yeah, you probably don't and bucket you're like hey, can you just put me in that I'll tell just choose the nicest one kind of: things that you don't have a story behind that you're safe in, though tell you safe in your box,

It seems as if you'd have money you're out there earning every little teeny tiny thing, so you have way more of an experience seem saying, embrace it risky to yeah. Well hey, take some chances go out there. If you want to support the podcast, you wanna support yourself, you wanna get stronger, faster, better, smarter each. Some shock of your new flavors discipline go at jokes, new flavors get yourself some milk. I need some more right now, brought here. Perhaps this in I'm with you do you know how I can look and when you get when you get hungry and then like even like a normal chocolate bar, something seems like all We don't want to hear a hungry bill. I I mixed but

Anna mauck in chocolate, milk and some chocolate milk in it. Just because of how everything sounds good to you is what I'm saying so. It's like, oh yeah, put somebody in there whatever and probably it was really really good. I dunno, if it's because of the so hungry or because that could be a banana chocolate is good thing. We do the chocolate, peanut butter, so that made sense. Think about it. You chop up a banana put some peanut butter. I mean in relate not milk and then put a little bit of chocolate on their common brothers. it's the same. Labour is one thing to get yourself a marker that way the is so good. The like I'm saying right now, so it's pretty standard that when that We are here when we're recording, I haven't, eaten yet so have you eaten today, so we're both on a fast right now yeah. It all sounds good. I'm going to break your fast with, like some mixed nuts and some milk, when I get on with this also scenario, so I recommend you do the same thing. Get yourself a market is awesome, discipline go and are you

although jack off your back, I'm you can also get it at. We get the drinks a while. We are ready to drink common, ready to drink protein, honouring like a date or anything This by the end of august it'll be in while one b of it we it will not Will it make enough of it yet to get it everywhere? But we'll get it out I'll, let you know where it's at and be able to order it. I can tell you that from geography back home you can- stop it vitamin shop as well. We get an eighty be down in texas we're going to some over me? I. I therefore analyse together because there's a key we're we're in a bunch of different stores, now found in thousands of stores. So albert. get a list together sector where to go and hid it. So there you go origin, usa, dot com. If you need to do to you you ve gotta, look if you're not doing jujitsu right now come on. Let's go

Let's just give me a game. Get yourself a key go to origin. Usa! Dark get america made, you dont, get someone don't get gotta give its made by someone. That's basically in a prison camp. Brilliant have you ever call? Have you ever been at home or wherever, wherever you go in just thought to yourself, with shows like doing jujitsu right now, yes, and not the kind of where it's like. Oh, I wish I was doing something else. Man, jujitsu sounds fun so that you like the feeling of man I wish I was actually like to, did you do with someone right now? You know what I had the feeling similar freely, but legs Dean's had an injured hand because he broke his hand for like a couple months right and you're. So when, whenever were training, There's a little bit of a little bit a whole. Back right a little bit of a you know: hey switch arms race which positions hey hold on. You know that kind of hurt that kind of thing and the other day we actually like he. I had forgotten her in his hand,

he's, been happy that all taped up you when you're rolling just see this tape them and then it's gone for a little few days. I come back. He didn't put the tape on its healing. and we ve rolling and when we got done, I said something, like my hand, felt pretty good. Today I was like oh, I didn't even remember it, but the role was so fun cause. It was like the limits were all yeah. I know it's just like felt so good yeah. So yes, sometimes you gotta train that jujitsu. Yes, yeah fully! You ever. This is not a judgmental thing by any means but you ever you ever think about yourself: before you knew jujitsu and be like man. I felt like that was almost like an empty shell version of myself. You ever think that you feel, like you were not enlightened, yeah, you feel like yours, whole thing. It was all A lot of it too, is like a lie. What's there's another word: what does a word like the buddhist used to say illusion you,

I know I was a little bit of an illusion cause, there's a lot of things that you think that are wrong. You just he just made up even even just the prague attic things like, I think I can beat this person up in I don't know what you did so you think that, but it's an illusion yeah, because you may or may not sure you might be able to, but you also might not be able to so there's a whole illusion to your life when you're not doing jujitsu and that's a problem. Yes- and this is your actually suit career- absolutely correct in your You know more about what I was just said than I do actually cause. Now that you say that I remember yes, that's correct cause. I was a bouncer in hawaii before I started you ditto europe and I in every room that does not cause. I worked with a bunch of big someone dies, so I did not think of that. But we have probably prowling related here. I didn't goes about us in that group, but compared to the patrons that would act up and stuff. I did, but I think of myself back then

like almost like there's this big part of my brain, those just empty, not knowing unknowing. So, yes, not enlightened. did you see they're making. Apparently there may be no really make of roadhouse. Yes, yes, the fire kiss me off disappears. We often I did. I know it's gonna be late, a wealth, color macgregor. So what what? What kind, Mercato, macgregor, he's peas. Any sleigh did given what I've been sent to you what's funny you're the third pertinent to the brink. as everybody knows you're and they ve been sent me the start in johannesburg. Was going to be in it playing what role though, online stop that people send me was had a picture of convergence. are to be in roadhouse, but that's different. If you're going to be in it and he's going to have a bit role, that's cool! No, I think he's the guy, but I dunno I didn't dalton, that's what I now let an eye, namely how to play that role and a bunch of me.

Just been sending it to me and then people been bringing it up tears. A lotta roles that Conover gregg would be awesome. Dom is not one I don't think so I do. I have no idea, I think he'd be better as the as the protagonist in that the press are the antagonists yeah ooh yeah that'd be a better bad guy that gets his throat ripped out. You remember that. Would you on something like well? Well, here's the thing so my fantasy of a road house remake would be a super darken greedy one, not like kind of cheesy like dark drugs. In like a real explicit that was my oji fantasy. Then I found out later that Rhonda Rossi in her haiti was slow it as Dalton as a real make of road house where you know it's a woman protagonists. That's right! That's the internal, got this live on them in there Yes recently, maybe that's! Why cause my vision, road house was more, like an actual fighter guy.

And maybe it does just in bending my brain and you don't see women bouncers. So it's like that's, I think- would be demo mistake when you're trying to sell a certain story- and it's like ok, let's put like a different in in that role that it's like bread. That is not that realistic as a woman, bouncer they're, so rare. So unless it's about the rarity of women bouncers cool, but it's like it's I believe all you know you're not like you get like a like If you get a ninja will say, but the ninja is a ten year old boy, I see what you're doing, but it's like bird ninjas aren't ten year old boys, typically ninjas, like a trained decades of training. That's it we're gonna to seems anyway When I saw kind of macgregor out like a where I feel it is viable, they thought I think, character wise. I think you'd have more fun playing like a bad thing I really think you d antagonist, because even though

he's good he's good at talking. Smack he's kind of good he's kind of good at being a bad guy, in moma, also has like the good side right data love him he's not. To pure he'll. They term he'll is right from wrestling legs like jail. Solomon was dude, he was lad guy s brother, he was so good at it and and caught her play that role a little bit but he's But he still does it with like a nice side, and he has a lot of you know a lot of positivity to him and said if he was allowed to just go off and just make bad he'd, have a good time with a ball. Here's the thing in- and I realize this until he was actually like told to Me- were big felt it, but I never knew this as a specific things, so the best bad guys in history, our guys that we like guys who we're, like hey sure, he's a bad guy. But oh, I want to be like him

and that always has to have a positive element to it. Like Darth vader like they're they're, usually like guys who are like sure they're. All you know he just gave you just gave you a list of what got you started. Counting figures: do you have to have at least five kg less than the finest bottom, and it's very good, darth vader good job briscoe that I well, you tell me who, who or who's like an iconic bad guy anton sugar, yeah. Ok, stoicism installing dude right in touch with our able control. His emotions super successful, like there's all these elements of him that are like and then there's one or two really. I mean they're significant, but this is usually just one or two bad elements of them and in fact you get bad guys who some some movies. They do on purpose and they do well where, if they want you to really not like a bad guy like will make him like kind

we or someone who like me, you wouldn't want to listen to her hang out with, in fact, you'd really rather be quiet and not show up to the party kind of a thing, but usually the good bad guys. You're like as long as you I to me. I would like to hang out with that guy or that guy when you think about it, so you get a conor mcgregor as the bad guy yeah perfect, and you use a trail son just one in yeah. He is a little bit more on the lake and tagging decide for sure, but he has a lot of those elements. Even more he's. Fine, oh yeah, like right, you kind of like some of the jail sown in like smack talking the otter, not the end the algorithm through my algorithm He was frightened epic man. He was. He was just epic smack talker and just I think he might be the king I think you might actually be the the the best smack talker of all time. Any dig it. Fourth round fifth round fifth round. He taught

the biggest smack to Anderson silver, and any in the fifth round, and there was a minute left man and he got caught brutal. That was savage salvage. That was a that was well for. I was rooting. You know from what does dictate that merkin bad guy imprecise. Where were you can like his video channel he's gotta you too general and keep talking about Emma man stuff like that, but he would say he's a gangster from westland organ. yeah he's like I'm an american gangsters, regular jack. It's off one. I've been to his house before for interviews, stalker, so a new battle. You no jail dear little yes go way back year. like when his lesson like for example. Last time I saw him a different thing. We remembered each other for sure, but you know I dunno must be done. Nothing like this, but yes, I've been

so when I went to lose just me and gathered around if the place he lives in that whole neighborhood super nice. What west linn oregon west linn or he's a gangster from western oregon wrestling Oregon yup? I salute them good, Well, there you go. If you want to get into ju, jitsu, usa, dot com go to chocolate, store, dot com get yourself. Some cool t shirts, aware represent represent standard issue is a is out, all the standard issued discipline doesn't want to reassure people asked: what's the layer see if you are what the layers are. You gotta look at I'm kind of comprehensively there's four of them for versions each one is a little bit different. There yeah see if you can figure out those layers, good yeah, a lot of cool stuff on there, the others dark ana miranda com. You too What are you two general? We got psychological warfare, we had

I gave us to go to my maiden. Kosovo knew all bunch of books. He hears the books from Peter Maguire, breath witches or sorry brief with with dixon gracie thai stick, law and war facing daffing. Cambodia so check those out check out only cried for their living by wholly mackay. I was tone peter about her. Might do this girl risk this woman is grow insulting? I don't think so. It's like boy, insulting, okay, this woman rest her life to write the book, only cry for the living so check out that book. If you want to know what what war is like from both sides wallets happening. Get yourself that book I mention my book final spin publishes weekly they need good review. Thank you. Publishers, weekly, hey publishing, You didn't. Like brief. That's a bummer! It's a good book jacket,

well I've written a bunch of other books about leadership. I print a bunch of kids books get the kids book for kids. You know it's going to help them. It's going to make world a better place, echelon front. We saw prob. Through leadership, you want to check out for if you need help with leadership at your organization, the national front, dot com come to one or events. Next one is atlanta. We had the muster, everything we do cells out. That's gonna sell out too. So if you want to come, go to ashland protocol get the details their extreme. ownership dot com. We have an online training academy where you can be a part of what we teach you can learn it. You can train it all the time we have live interaction. We have courses that are set up extreme ownership dot com. Also, if you want to help service members active and retired you and how about their families, gold, star families markedly mark liese mom,

got a charity organization if you want to donate or you want to get involved, want to help out our veterans and their families go to america's mighty warriors dot. Org also heroes, and horses dot org. We got Micah fink up there taken guys and recreating their brains and bodies and spirits in the woods on horses and ice baths. So there you go and if you want to check us out on social media on twitter on the gram on the facebook, he echoes that which was a aka willing. But of course, beware of the algorithm cause. It's looking to suck you in its looking to grab a hold your brain, that's what they did to me. They got me watching these jail. Sonnen, smackdown, smacked videos and now I'm now, there's load them up for me and I'm like a what would he says on this? One click watch out watch out for the algorithm it'll grab. You thanks for listening thanks for supporting the cause we

We would not be here without you listening and supporting. So thank you we would also not be here if it wasn't for the military doing what the military does. So, thanks to all military members, past present and future. Thank you for protecting our freedom. our way of life and also thank you to our police and law enforcement. Firefighters, paramedics, empties, dispatchers crew. National officers, border patrol secret service, all first sponsors. Thank you for doing what you do to keep us safe here on the home front and everyone else out there listen. If someone like peer maguire is a great reminder for all of us that there is so much going on in the world so much to do so. Much to experience and for peter that meant surfing and you get and

reading, writing and travelling, and maybe some smuggling is some studying in some teaching and so on.