« Jocko Podcast

358: Out of Airspeed... And Ideas. With Airforce Fighter Pilot and Hanoi POW, Col. Lee Ellis.

2022-11-02 | 🔗

Leon F. "Lee" Ellis (born October 9, 1943) is a retired United States Air Force colonel, award-winning author, speaker, and consultant.[1] Ellis gained notoriety when, as a fighter pilot in the Vietnam War, he was shot down, captured, and spent 5+1⁄2 years as a prisoner of war in Hanoi and surrounding areas with former presidential candidate and Senator John McCain (R-AZ) and others.[2] His capture occurred on November 7, 1967, and he was released on March 14, 1973.[3] He was one of the youngest, junior members in the camps.[2] Ellis is an international speaker and consultant on the subjects of leadership and human performance.

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This is an unofficial transcript meant for reference. Accuracy is not guaranteed.
This is job podcast number three, fifty eight with dave, burke and me jocker, willing good evening dave good evening. It is with, Deep personal concern that I officially inform you that your son first lieutenant Leon Ellis junior. is reported missing in north vietnam. It now on seven november, nineteen sixty seven. He was a pilot on an f. For sea aircraft on an operational mission, his craft, was last seen to roll in on target shortly thereafter alarm Fireball was seen, whereas aircraft previously was located. The fight ball, descended to the ground and impacted. The crew was not seen to bail out, but, however boys contact was established with your son on ground rest
you operations are in progress. Lieutenant Alice may have been captured. for his welfare. It is recommended that, in reply, two questions from other than your immediate family, give me his name grade, serial number and date of birth This is the information here. provide, if captured, please be assured, when new information is received. It will be furnished to you immediately. a representative from dobbins air force base will content you within forty eight hours to assist in any way possible. If you have any questions you may call my personal represent representative, please except my sincere sympathy during the period of anxiety, brigadier general
george e mccord military. personnel centre headquarters united states air force, and that was the telegram received by Leon and moline Ellis parents of first lieutenant Leon? Ellis junior, probably one of the most tariff buying things a parent could ever hear about their child, but the good news, is beyond alice, junior or lee alice did survive being shot down. The bad news is, he was captured, whose captured by nor three enemies and ended up spent five and a half years as a prisoner of war, but. The good news is, he did survive that he went on You become a card
the air force. After that, a speaker, a leadership consultant and an author written three books leading. with honour another book. Engage with honour and a fourth coming book called captured by love, is a distinct privilege and an honor to have. Li l is with us here tonight to discuss experiences and his lessons learnt sir thank you for joining us. Thank you, Jacques house, great, to be with you. I really enjoy your book. You and Marvin spoke god. Leadership books for tee it's like the name. I've written a bunch of books, all good, but it was so good and I quoted it and in several places in my book. So thank you for what you've done doing a night's pleasure to be way the I'm excited appreciated for sure, and I mean
reading your books and having had a couple other appeared obvious from vietnam on this part gas, we had william reader, who was a house pilot wish down, he was shot down. Healthy unarmed, so he made the treacherous journey months long journey through the jungle staying in the jungle camps, which, were you know by his account them absolute horror and then of course, charlie, plum on as well. I know you know him so honour to have you here. Share your experiences, the perspective that you all bring to leadership into life is just unbelievable something very powerful. I know, as I read through what you all experienced, it's impossible not to try and take some less since from that and improve the way I live as a human being
that what's let's before we jump into your time in in vietnam, let's start off in the beginning and how you how you up, so you were born in not born in georgia right. Yes, I am of borne out in south georgia, but when I was about to yours all my parents move back to north georgia because I grandmother had cancer and we want to live near my mother's parents, on the farm and waited of dinner for bedroom im off a four room house there on the farm not afford bedroom do bedroom the living room and a kitten that was it back and never, back in the forties, grandma the Dodd and then we moved her my grandfather on that farm, so I grew up in the rear. well the days of farming. We went about the way we went barefooted from may until october. That was a thing we were proud of. We wanted to get those shoes off and go barefooted
I didn't a short much in the summer time and worked on the farm, and it was good and looking it was good that we had that responsibility. My dad was not a farmer, he learned to do some work found, but my brother and I worked a lot there on the farm, a mamma there was a wonderful cookin every we had this huge garden and we would grow an acre of garden. Snuff we, my mother, what can a hundred courts of beans every summer and corn and peas and butter beans and all the stuff wall brother northern. I did a lot of that work than we would sit on the front porch in the swing shelling butter, brains, string and beans at night I listened to the atlanta crackers, which was like a double a baseball team before it became the atlanta brave, and that was life you know, was a good life and hard work.
My brother milk, the cow because my dad went to work tat. My brother would milk the cow in the morning and evening. That was good because I didn't have the same grip pay day was bigger, there may an older, but I feta where the hogs further chickens, shop, the what and brought in the coals every day. So you know this was good thing. Was we learned about responsibility? We learned about beyond the cold. We drove cars, it. Sometimes a battery should dare you had to push him off their all straight, sheer so was an era when we just as young kids on a farm where love or to building, but out there farm the korean war fell, which I came here to wander fifty three or fifty four tom prime oust point. Forty ray. So I was like eight nineteen your soul and I'd be out there on the farm work in and I keep looking because overhead with a huge formations of aeroplanes, going off to
War are goin off to prepare people or drop. You know paratrooper whatever and I'd look up at those airplanes. Well, oh that, because when I was five, my parents took me to athens, georgia, which is ten miles. Why would the universe to georgia bulldogs are about the way and in the end park, debate transport athens. Ga there was world war, two fighter plane and I up on that wing, and it was like age, five or six. I said this is me, this is what I'm gonna do well Now I was also begin to sports. My brother, my mother's brother, had play football to university. nineteen, twenty eight twenty nine became a doktor and his two sons play scholarship at the university georgia in fifty fifty one. Fifty two So we would go down and watch university. George of football practice overrun ag hale there. So I
this in my mind- and I wanted to be a quarter back at the universe- you george, so I was a quarter back in high school and was above average, but how in the fastest guy on the team or my senior year in high school, only weighed one hundred and fifty five and they did not recruit me, which I didn't expect them to. So I went onto the university of georgia when I finished high school and got in the air force rotc and then new. That was what I wanted to do. So what year is that you go to college? I graduated high school nineteen. Sixty one went to college then end up, graduated in four years in nineteen sixty five now I was probably the worst student ever too right away in four years. because I just I had never really learn to study. I was kind of a d day and focused on and I had to work pay my college tuition, all that didn't
when he money. So I worked and lived at home after my first semester, there lived on campus, just gotta, saved up money and want to do it better. In order to see I graduated as a distinguished graduate and went to his wife, go where the academy class a class of ice cook was it was hard to get inflatable. Not for me. I pass exam and The written exams end up. I got my palace licence you're in college therefore had a flight and doctrine action programme with a kind of strange you out- and I say through that can went right, fight schooling, I'd always been driving. I started driving cars when I was eleven tractors, when I was twelve and I can drive, and by myself I mean they would let me go with responsibilities. Gold driver, my schoeffer for my grandfather
when he was sir, when when I was twelve and thirteen, so I'd always been, I out about operating machinery in king risk and being able to go right to the age but not go over, So Just was a natural place to be, and one day tell me it. I passed the physical, to be a pilot and my aftermath. Sophomore year I was thrilled and I went over changed. My major I was in pre mad and because my uncle had been a doctor in our I'm gonna get into medical school. My grades in study. I want changed my major the history and sailed right. I thought for europe and after my school and flies, for me Check every month I bought myself a new car worker car was it will. I was gonna, get either
Let's go get a duty out who was dead, only come out with vetoes and sixty four, and this was ninety summer, sixty five. the problem, was that deal with buckets faith and I wanted a back seat because back there I wanted my honey to be certain like real cars by one those stupid you two years, I loved you here, so I bought a couple supreme, which is exactly like a g t o, except number smaller attention and had been saying about why we also need to be cool, so and my room, I bought up his tat was afforded him and he got a mustang, so my room might imply school, sir, were cool and bell ass. A state college was right down there in belgium, Taylor miles away man we could just role in air or we go to the fresh. Dormann say well who's in.
and they had a son out would say well, Janey and so How will bring him down here, one of meda, and they would? item we ve taken from: let's go the clubs, so I did not study very hard and you pay tv and four may ok, a check had a car, those girls nearby and I was living life and I wanted to live in college, but also to imply school. Where you pity undergraduate power, training, ok, so, is that before you go to before you go before you graduate from college now. This is right, I guess you graduate you'd get commission. Three days later, I was in high school and round also georgia, moody airport and this in nineteen sixty five. What are you hearing about vietnam? How much is that on the radio is starting to jump, jump up and use. There's some debate, you see them. If you watch t v, there'll be some debates on there and a cure. Ross could be under their be talking about it and
we see a lot of burma. Army helicopter should come true and pass refuel, and there and moody and gone. You know this. The army's airborne an army are forever the helicopter groups from all right. Really, Iraq have aircraft to try and they would come true, but in place. we didn't have any instructor pilots to already been on a tour and then a thousand to thirty eight, which was a second stage, the advance of lights, part of high school, There was a major came in a single guy who is, adrian, he just come back from a tour in vietnam as high as the. What's the navy prop airplane, it's the air force had two I want I want. I want scar on Ebay, I once carburetor pop his fighter power, but Hubert. I want pilot for tour over there. He told us about it and he went on country would listen. He was he was up
on a really great later in a great gossip is of course combat veterinary. had ever met and he was single, so that was but aid I would So what's the training aircraft, the tea, thirty eight two thirty. I guess they want to use now Dave. We are therefore still using have they been usenet fifty years or so it had just come out and through the air force and sixty three sixty, more and so is supersonic twin engine. After burner to cedar the bite of her in other words, the five got it. But you know you would go supersonic, it would it would climb great. It was a great airplane for us to fly. A fluke flew fast on final than most of the aeroplanes. To now now, are you coming for that fighter pilot slot gear? but they were gonna, be plentiful
and I was in the top ten percent of my class until on my car fact evaluation at thirty eight, my short tell me well on the single engine landing. Don't worry too much about airspeed. Well, oh my check right. My airspace was about ten or twelve, not time I got, downgraded and that took me from like a third. The fourth in my class down to about the fifty percent, all in my class if it were, I just couldn't get back up there weren't enough more check rods to get much higher back up. So I was probably in the top forty percent, but nuclear. In my mind, I wish I knew who I was. I should have been upturn attempt, but the in my class which was sixty seven, a medicine. I was in nineteen sixty six, but to physical year we graduating August nineteen sixty six
across a train in basis. There were five hundred Oh I'm sorry, there were over eight hundred pilots being trained ass whole year, and over five hundred of us got if for back, see their point so I say now the navy didn't put polyxena maxie they put rios, but the air force was trying to get get use money to get more. Pilots training, ok, sundays, at congress or somebody hey. We need more pilots, cause I've put in pilots, the back seat, and so, we had to go over there forced or in the back seat. So, and fellas going through my combat training, there were some of the procedures set. I knew I was a lot better pilot than they were, but a help them. What goods, though most of whom were good, but not all of it. So you get on with that You get on with their tea, thirty eight and then its
into then you get to sign a phantom, yes and how, but what will you assign backseat for the phantom? Yes anyway you mad about that well, I was, but there are only three other single seat fighters in my class. One guy five. I wonder I gotta one or two and nobody else, back say. Therefore, so there was no choice. All alma bodies and I went there and you know? We were gonna, go, do in pay our dues and get out and go the front seat or go to another so that was kind of a normal pattern. You'd go the back here for a tour and then you get get into france. In fact, I was actually I didn't know this, but my buddy list, I turn who went out two days after I get medal of honor guy, We were, and I were started there were certain floss lobo with some eyes instructor pilots who were check pilots
and they didn't tell us is, but they were gonna great us to the front seat and combat I found out after I came home and I thought not very wise, to upset her rights on by the fronts lee. Where you didn't you, in the back say you didn't, have a pickle button. You couldn't pickled bombs and far the gun in the back seat, you can fly the airplane retained, but you couldn't pickled them so you need further training for you moved under the the f. Four friend was my favorite american bird, that it was just like model, masterpiece at the time right yeah, was it. It was a lot of power and it The sharpest turning one, but it would turn pretty term pretty pretty I'm gonna pull jeez well anyhow, out of power and a cure parallel shoved. The problem was, it was built navy long range sceptre uk. So they did
I have a gun built into it, just had it with missiles, while the air force wanted it for more air. To ground and air to air, so we actually started carrying a pod gun Twenty millimeter punk on underneath and station, while I was there and we did glide better there. It was the same gone to delay, built into the airplane, india for ie and the aid now A ten now has a forty millimeter guy. They built an airplane around the so then when when you get done with that training. How? How long is it before you go to vietnam normally they replaced training unit, which would be like the rag and enable the hour to you in the airport we want to do. I want to georgia poor space over three different bases that were doing and desert right near who are top gun or cloud and was found there in the high desert, and go there and we do air to ground aired air,
if fueling that sort of thing- and then we deployed trait to war. My order said: f. Four, five f for phantom pipeline southeast asia pipeline met as quick as he gets, combat trained, he's going to the south east asia, and so now it's nineteen sixty, seven, yes, and so now. Vietnam is pretty much in full swing. Yes and how's that sit with you with your teammates. You guys just all like. That's you, goes to get to vietnam and the car they most selfish work with that's where we're gonna go in there chaser Simon to three times, because the weather over there and different thing so went home. They told we're gonna go to japan, masala and stay there? we go titty. Why till the war? Well the? Why some kids were again shots and everything getting ready to go overseas to japan, and I thought well the ok, we're gonna, take em for ease over to Japan and then all of a sudden about to waste.
They said: that's been cancelled. We're back to the regional you gonna go to write to the war, fell the mai We do, though, was we got we'd already had survival training before I went to georgia, get combat training and so now we go to water Sebab, because we had little bit of tom. They said you're not going to go to July, saw went to water survival and then departed the states on about thirty or thirty tune, or so had it went to the philippines. Through jungles survival, school about a week there and the years this nineteen sixty some and then straight from there to denying, which was in the northern part of south vietnam, about seventy miles south of the dmz separated north vietnam from self
and so there's that's where you end up flying out of that's where your your basis, you end up flying out a dna. Yes, and we flew a lot of combat stories over the north. Those raw counters, if you got a hundred saudis over the north, you could go home if you only flew over south vietnam, he had to fly for a year before, if your backup, so whenever we wicked convert of emission allowance or south norm get something done and then have a low but ammo left. We go over to north vietnam and work with afford our country. there, the missy facts hanta that counter it. What was that? What was the main mission that you're gettin tasked we're doing? it was so there are two missions. One was closer support for combat troops and I core, which was the northern part of south vietnam in support of them range and army, so we would do
We would settle, are sometimes for that would get scrambled and go out when they got we're about to get overrun or somethin can attack and go on to closer support. Now, a lot of fun but most of our missions. I had about fifteen or maintain those kind of mission. but most of the missions war, road, rocky and bombing of trucks on the road bombing out. Ah, britches keep them roads bombed out, so they could not the whole. She meant trail to keep them from bringing truckloads of troops and war materials tend to south young non. They would come down south to HO trail. Run parallel to the coastline and then, as it got to, dmz. They were cut over and lay off and then go to and louse and then cut back into south getting home, because that was the safest way for them to travel,
So that's why we fluent allows was to blow up those bridges and roads, and if we could get a convoy trot she no, we can wipe. Does output quickly, and that's right, that's so that was the main mission that yes, it was we were flying. makes a bar combat air patrol supporting them bombers fighter bombers up around Hanoi when I got there at denying most of those who, though, tonight and a newborn air force were supporting the air support for the one off of air force. One oh fox and air force were flying, combat attacks in the hanover area up in north vietnam, industrial complex, but about four or five weeks after I got to denying the pole
policy change twelfth air force was in saigon and we were part of the twelfth air force up to our seventh air force and twelfth air force, controlled, louth and I'm sorry controlled thailand's, and that's where we had four the main basis and thailand horror flying missions out of a lot. we're goin over north vietnam into the hanover area, so we lost the bombing and the combat air patrol support, mick mick cow pugwash, you call it. Macao We lost that about a month after I got there, so I did not get to go under mic patrol upper I know I was very disappointed because that's what I've always wanted to do was this dog fire. They have just. dog play, exploiting Did you ever seen him eggs from
here. I have them on the ground when I was in prison up their eyes. On a few times the Do you remember your five year very first mission that you flew? Was it in full guy's going into ground, combat you gotta, remember the first time he rolled outside the wire was your first mission. Was it monumental in your brain? Was just like up another day there was just like calling out to the range and bombing really is come more like that it seems like we are shot out I most solve: emissions we got shot out and we come home and have some bullet holes from ah ground fire mostly, never got hit by any real aaa. I don't think up and have any calls cold airplane, but it was cool and have you no ground far right, fools. They feel like the threat when you were flying up there. How? What was that? threat level that you felt I
when the book youtube you end up mentioned in you, you had, I think three a year, Friends had been shot down. Like? How often is that happening were geyser guys we're getting shot down and your role in up there? What is it What's your impression or did you have the typical young man's impression which hey it's too bad? It happened to someone else, but it sure is not gonna happen to me. I'm too good. Well, it was kind of that, but it was sad to you know: I'd love to roommates before I wish hell no one after I was shot to but There were a lot of people shot down this the summer and going into the fall of nineteen sixty seven. It was huge number of people shot down, because our art that missions increase significantly and there and aircraft, Chimera surface air missiles increased significantly during that time. So it was. the common for a place to be going down.
Did you feel, like the skin level that it takes to drop bombs back in back. In your day I mean nowadays, it's a computer, that's doing computers do in all the work, and you just in importing the numbers and he's gonna put that bomb wherever you tell that bombed ago? Did you feel like you better was, it were some I'd better than other guys. You know in the seal deems which I was in here. This guy over here, he's really good long range shot with his rifle he's going to be super accurate, this other guy? Maybe he's not so great? Did you guys have that kind of pecking order in terms of hey you know Lee's getting sent out to get this bridge because we know he's good or I don't suddenly out to get that bridge. Maybe he's not the best of our guys. Did you guys have that kind of pecking order, Yes and no The fly commanders were generally Sadly, spider powers at that time, and so they were usually the bass and the squire
and so they were set an example and up, but it is, because of the war you know igniting sixty seven and by the summer, sixty seven all the fight, a policy on over and done their year hundred missions and come home, not all, but many. The first big chunk of him. Ok, and they don't want to send him right back, so they brought guys from be fifty two's from sea, one thirty, two bertram s forefront cedars she'll guy in fighter powers, well, also had been us who had just been flying a T. Thirty, eight. We knew that of our job was to keep them safe and help them by firepower seriously, I mean they were good pilots, but I had just had been planned fighter planes and there will be. more cautious and slower thinking, I think sometimes and so we work almost coaching
at the times I was coaching the guy in the front seat, and I don't roll in yeah we're not we're not close enough to rolling yeah. So. you know it's hard to say, but most of the time when you were not fluids, he more. in your gauze and who was our experience fighter Paul if they were really good. And what about like god? So you two point: eight sixty seven over there, the polluted we'll thing in amerika of you know the war protests they weren't really strong in nineteen sixty seven. Now it wasn't going strong added, which is starting to roll in certain parts of the country. I think the thing for me I realize very quickly and most so. The pilots realized very quickly that we were not fair. In this war in the right way. Then you saw that either from europe time your first lieutenant you been in the navy firm
you ve been you been in the air force for a short period of time and you already seen as a first lieutenant on your deployment. This maybe doesn't make the most sense. Yes I did say that I share why don't you let me figure out how to pick the targets, may not yet have known as it highlights or didn't picked by like Washington dc and stop breath. Yes, exactly nuts, I will here is how we need to do this. We need to go up. Bomb on the roads, just bomb out in certain specific places intentionally an hour before dark and then as quick as it gets dark. The trucks will back up and we'll go in and strife a mall and wipe them out. Well, that would took me about a month to figure that out and sometimes we did that. Sometimes we didn't buddy one part of the plan. There was no planted it. You had to fly sorties to some degree to win saigon said five:
and to a large degree up around Hanoi, you could only Then, when they told you too The course enemy knew exactly when we're coming so was just ridiculous that. So many decisions about what a bomb went a moment was made in Washington dc by survey. and who knew nothing about warfare. And even you as a first lieutenant you're, what twenty three years old, twenty four hours until I I was twenty three. When I got there twenty three years old europe just driving around a muscle: corn america's knuckle drag your new, you figured out, hey, you micro, manage this thing from Washington DC. Yes, and I now ask I was kind of down it was kind of a downer. For me, it's like one. Can somebody stand up and fix this? You know at this point, are you see in the pew double use any of that propaganda stuff that that will that would come out over the years? Are you already seeing that some of that stuff you mean in our culture?
yeah, so so, in other words, here they're your flying at this point, so the pilots had been shot down. Pilots have been captured, soldiers and sailors had been captured. And and that propaganda his p o w 's. Is it not really out in nineteen sixty seven? Yet they they weren't, really pushing that hard to the vietnamese to get that propaganda out no I had not heard any propaganda from kyoto be camps. I didn't know anything about the appeal, Debbie camps of what was happening. I'm sure some posted I knew some of my bodies have been captured, but I did I know what was happening there other than it was. There were probably prisoners. so how many? How long you been there? for you ended up getting shot down. Well, I got it there are around a third of july, and I was shot down the seventh in november.
Point, I had fifty three missions over north vietnam in another. I don't know fifteen, sixteen or so over. South vietnam louse only well probably a good. time. For me to pick up this book. The book is called me, with honour leadership, less from the holy helen. This is just out of the gate, worse turn it off from the book. It says this november. Seventh, nineteen sixty seventh, four o clock, p m captain. ken fisher and I rolled into a dive bomb pass in our efforts for sea phantom jet, as we saw downward. Our bird with turned up wing tips, elevated tail and deafening roar- must have resembled a high tech version of a prehistoric care tracers from the north vietnamese anti aircraft artillery flash by our kind of
I like giant, roman candles, there are explosions encircling us with ominous pockets of grey and black smoke, each representing hundreds of shards of shrapnel designed to mortally wound our beautiful beast. As our jet plunged. or the artillery positions at five hundred miles an hour. The earth in law- in our windscreen as if we were just the zoom on a telephoto telephoto lens, it was eyeball to eyeball stared down with the enemy. We, each side expecting the other to die when you face enemy fire. You are at the point of this sort can, and I had been around long enough to know that the sort of combat cuts both ways we had lost we close friends in similar situations in the prior to months. We really star heavy payload bombs and are like The plane lurched upward, suddenly an explosion rocked our aircraft, a terrifying sound like marbles and a blunder alerted me that the metal of our expensive flying machine was ripping apart. The cockpit was
intact but reduce rapidly filling with smoke, the controls was frozen at full aft right and we were Tom we and over and through the sky, just before bomb release. We had been at six thousand feet descending rapidly in a steep dive. Now, on fire and out of control, there was only one option eject, but that was impossible. I was upside down floating out of my sea, with my head pushed against the top of a canopy. If I just while we're in negative jeez, I suffer severe injury, even deaf time is running out at all of dissent, we would soon be out of the envelope foresee safe rejection. Suddenly, the cockpit flipped again and I felt pressure in my seat, positive jeez. It was now or never. I sat up red right pulled, the ejection handle an explosive
george fired blowing away, the canopy still strapped my see. I was blasted free of the aircraft like a carnival. Stun artist shot from a cannon acceleration force eighteen times the force of gravity. Now, if expensive one time use. Martin baker ejection system was going to save my life. It would have flawlessly, execute a remarkably complex series of events, a half as a second later, the man each separate or worked as advertised firing, a blast of compressed air to the open, lap belt connecting, pin, freeing me from the heavy seat and triggering the appropriately named, but snapper a folded nylon belt. Under my seat democratically snap tight for To me into space as the ejection seat moved away, the attack lanyard pulled out the de ring deploying my parachute, the effort, phantoms marvellously engineer. James bond, like a sea escape system, had snack, me from the jaws of death in less than two seconds, but.
Much like bonds, adventures escape from one danger only brought another So you, when you're in negative jeez, you can't adapt, does the rule? Well, if you do, you might just smash your head on the canopy. and then it'll just break your neck and kill you a could so you're goin five hundred miles an hour and your five. In future. How many seconds is that? How many, how far we from impact too re at the most. I guess it would have come back quickly now, once the airplane blew up, stumbling. It wasn't goin bognor, Malta, we're probably between Fifty five hundred miles an hour when bombs came off and we blew up and then
within another sector, were tumbling and fellow. is slowing down, and you know that part a camera it all happened so quickly. This is it within in all less than a second. It happened so quick, I don't remember exactly except I knew I had negative cheese and I needed pottage he's want to wait a little longer and it flipped, and there was- and I pulled at handle and tended to- and it was a it's unreal we got out three honest or are you I won't? Let me tell you one thing: we were the first I didn't know this. Still. Several years later, we were the first probably To be blown out of the sky by the official thirty five fuse, because when it came in less than two seconds when there were bad foods. There was a new fuse with a new type.
chemical reactions or whatever? But some of them were. So what is this fm? You thirty five years when it goes into the head of the bomb occasion, and it was a timed future, so we could drop at any, would lay on the ground and wait for ten seconds to blow up a white for an hour to blow up well We didn't even know this. We were the first ones to ever fly with that and we were not supposed to be flying whether we had not been told by told they were coming, but we had not been told, We had one, so I wouldn't know when I did the bomb inspection, though armament inspection. I would know one if you mean thirty five use different from another one. There were just a fuse, but ours blue. It. They blew up and one point eight seconds after they came off and boom and most of the people that had that happen died
My roommate died two weeks later from that, and this is because he's shooting the missile and its detonating want. When eight seconds later and it's not far enough away that no, dropping a bomb meagre and wounded. Comes off it dead, makes and one point eight seconds after its release, which is maybe a hundred feet from where you are its parallel. Who's gonna parallel due to some degree right. Ok, any blew up, maybe two or three three dangerous and all that shrapnel out of them out of one blue. Bald russell, and so all these armed blew off and a blue are normally When you get hit by an aircraft artillery, it doesn't blow your plane up, it might blow off part of the wing or might borrow a part of your tail or shoot a hole through your fuel tank.
And are you ancient and blow out your engine? But it doesn't blow your airplane apart, so that in itself is very unusual for an airplane to be blown up by an aircraft artillery. Well, we found out several years later, a p o w. I was putting another cell with a p o w and he was telling me about how he was blown out of the sky. By his wing man. His flight leads bombs going off and he said at the nang we had lost like twelve, ten or twelve airplanes over a period of about six weeks and almost all of them died pair of fuel so is that what happened to your bird? Yes and we didn't know that. these. Are you got hit here because there, So a lot of aaa treasures right gone right by the cockpit. So what else would you think nothing else? It had to be that until we found out
That is what it was like to be blown out of sky by the f, whom you sort of our views, and it happened. Let sides my buddy? Two days later, the content, my roommate two weeks later, and neither one of them came home so and they were great guys, great pilots, incredible men. Wow, that's horrible and talk about a lot of communication ashes, that's crazy things Well, they never really solve the problem, and you know between d, thus shrill and military. No one takes ownership of the problems and no resolve the problems. How can they? Finally do, though, the wing commander general carr beside us proceed with pretty famous guy, been nice career war.
but he went down to sigh gonna. You even court martial my but we're not gonna follows anymore, while going back to the book here. I had eject from the womb of the F for into very unfairly world hanging in the parish. You without my shallow protection, I felt exposed and vulnerable gunfire, cracked below and Bullets whizzed by me instinctively. I fall procedures ingrained by regular refresher training since entering flight school, for a fully open, shoot. Activate the emergency beeper decide on deploying a life raft, pick a spot to land and steer your parachute prepare. The parachute landing fall, p, o f. are you going through the motions, you're you're thinking through your training? I had one goal and I was too vague capture I was glad my training. It was unreal. I couldn't believe that I was so focused on my training and
I was too and here the enemy still shootin at the wing. Man and bullets had gone by and I'm just focus on what I'm supposed to do could you see, can fisher no pay was about half a mile away. When you reject do both you get ejected, some one person, so you you each have to pull your ejection hail some airplane for that way. But ours wasn't. You know, therefore So you don't know if he made it out at this point. You don't know now or no I'm looking down and I can see the ocean just a few miles through four miles away and who we were attacking the gun, protection for the quantity fairy atwater, though young for their control controller. Put us on the ball. those gun areas, and so I know where I am a florida, this area lot, and so I I made a radio call as queens I got on the ground. I did my parachute landing fall and I hit all the points jumped
tunnel bomb crater pull out my radio and on guard said: hey, I'm on the ground, two hundred meters north of river sharks, Shravan at three hundred am headed south cause. I thought if I could get in that river, I could evade and get picked up out by the navy on well. I saw two slightly after I came home, pilot fighter pilot reunion. He said: hey man, I heard your radio call, but I decided I couldn't shoot that good. I didn't want to hit you and I said very wise because a surrender being captured bay within ninety seconds yeah. You seen the book you mustn't. Sixty seconds the militia troops formed a semicircle about thirty yards away, began. Moving toward me. Survival instructors, it taught us the best chance to escape, is immediately after capture, because frontline soldiers are typically the least trained in handling prisoners deciding to try to a bluff. I drew
my thirty eight caliber shot revolver smith and wesson combat masterpiece, which was loaded with two rounds of tracer and three of regular ball ammo. Could these could these record? Rookies be scared off. I would challenge them and find out the three stepped out from chest, high bushes and pointed their rifles at me I raised my revolver motion for them to get back and fired a trace around over. Their heads without flinching they shoulder their rifles and pointed them at me. I why they do cut me down right then I'll never know I can only assume got it plans for my life You took a crack at these guys. Were your thirty eight, but you ve got How you survive that? I have no idea. I just wanted to scare, although fired it over their head trace area megan eyes in the heat of the battle of all, I was thinking of me please anyone out there
few point of weapon at me and you pull the tiger actually viewpoint a weapon of me, you're gonna, exactly so that- this just the traits. Are these guys detroit scare them off they might have been there. Clearly the value of a captain of a prisoner. Must And so high to them, and they knew that that's why they said. Oh no body right You're not getting out of here continuing on. Is that one of the militia and pulled and by the way, I'm reading this book, I'm written some excerpts. You gotta get the book giving a bunch of stuff does all kinds of awesome details and ear of. What's going through your mind, like you, gotta get them. We'll come I'm just trying to give. some of the highlights they're, not even all the hazards, some of the island's one, the militiamen pulled out, a pamphlet. I recognise it as a pointy talkie, a tool of the vietnamese vietnamese military devised that show drawings of american pilots being captured, along with the enemies fanatics for english commands, referring to his booklet
He began to shout hand pan shop, surrender, no die surrender, no die Aviators, have a number of expressions for being in deep trouble. One of the nicer ones is out of errors. Need and ideas that precise He described my situation, you like that. One day out of her speed, ideas. Still you not a good place to be cast aside. My pistol raised my hands not knowing what to expect immediately. My captures grab me and began talking him. Our survival vest aunt. I e g suit and flight suit. The last my last vessel is of protection. and here's the psychological view of what going through your mind up until the time a surrender I'd operated. computer calculate in processing at nanosecond speed. My training programmes had translated into almost flawless, execution of credit to the military way and those who did the training now
out of control and with no power, this cool, somewhat cocky fighter pilot phase, all alone and very scared captured and an enemy hands. What lay store, would I he tortured, killed. The shock of my predicament made the whole affair seem like a dream. I knew this was happening to me by also felt like an observer as if participating in an out of body experience. Unfortunately, this nightmare was real and I would need to up a new mindset, a new game, face to face, a different kind of battle, a battle of mines and wills. Oh, you were in enemy, hands and ninety seconds for hit the ground. Is that just
bad luck! How does that even happen? That was a that happened quite a bit because usually we're in more populated areas and they were going to be militia. Farmers with farmers came with no axes or shovels or whatever to capture you, so it was good to be captured, but if you're going to be kept- better by the militia than the farmers. What is there? Is there a massive relief of joy survival. I mean that that you made it out of the aircraft that blew up underneath you and now you're on the ground
gotta be at least feel good that you're alive, or was that not there? I guess I wish is focused on the moment. I didn't at that point that this is just part of my day that I'm gonna dealing with it. You know, I wasn't thinking that I guess I don't know. Maybe I will think I'm glad I'm alive, but that only lasted for a second now, I'm dealing with the realities of what's gonna happen. Next and I suppose that just overshadowed any sort of like lack of a better word celebration that you up although you did mention the book as you are under canopy your kind. looking around like out kind of nice appear, you saw the ocean, I if I can get to the ocean,
You heard them yelling and shooting it didn't take, but a second I look back over and I knew up the river there was disappearing cage cause. I knew about that. It was the river went into the cave and they would hide their sampans and ships boats up there at night and during the daytime and bring them out at night to ferry the ferry boats to ferry the scots across the river, the trucks across the river. But so I was looking over that way and then I looked over here. Nourished the ocean dong hoi. The city was over there so it was beautiful, but that took about a split second dave. You ever grab your objection handle now that I never pull the reach of the handle, I thought about it once was going on. It was just em clinical prominent had with an airplane very similar is actually in a dive and back.
about one even draw a comparison between what you just described in and what happened you in mind, but the feeling of going really fast downhill. I really liked the way described. The weather comes up, as I could telephoto zoom whence azure rotating that lends. How quickly comes up when things don't going downhill, you're, much more inclined to leave the airplane when things aren't working going up and I've got his it's hard to listen to what is in my brain. When you say you see the ocean and the airplane, I just wish you just want there when the climb up, even if, as out of power, he just wanted to get up into the air at such a better place to be the fact you're going down who as such or weaken thing to here, because you have few options. So I guess yes, and no! Nothing like that, but that feeling of I gotta problem gone downhill, you're, much more inclined to leave I remember thinking about it for a split second one. I can actually solve this problem. Unlike your problem is not solvable, but going downhill is not cool when you gotta you ever heard. The term ground rushed I've heard
turn by an absolute ok. So we only- and I know it from freefall persia. So it's a thing for pilots as well: rationally, ok, yeah! It's like it like that ground is coming, but then all of a sudden it starts common, really fast. The lower you get the faster hit starts govern. I have won a parachute, cutaway, meaning my main parachute failed and I had to get rid of that parachute and an pull my reserve parachute. I've never happened. One time and for me it was very mechanical mind my mind was just oh, you know look at my simitar trying to clear the problem. Look at my team China called problem parachutes, not good. Ok, I'm at the cutaway altitude specific two thousand feet I got to nineteen hundred feet. I was like yep, you need to cut this thing away and I just did it my brazil you came out- and I was fine, very mechanical you know very yet that's just robotic. You know that's how we were trained. That's what I got trained to do. That's what I did and
I have this right, where you are in the back seat for this How frustrating was that that you are now? flying the airplane. That sense. I mean I'd I'd, try like to be a fighter part, your description of going back seat of forests as part of the standard continuum to cycle of front, and I'm the guy with was a great guy, but that power A man sense of who's got the controls. How much of that Were you thinking about a real time? The frustration or was there any of you not being one flying it or reckoning it was on it. It occurred to me at all because he was a really good pot, yeah and school. I trusted hammond from there, and it all happened so fast yeah. I mean we're talking about second two seconds tomorrow Yeah dave's the single seat fighter for his whole career yeah. I just in that sense of of wanting to be the one making the airplane deal disposed to do, I just think it might for me and I'm sure was for you- that islamic
much more standard. We never had that pipeline, but going the banks even airplane them, one or two times in my career did it there's a small sense of the front dave burke this really, if you ve ever go, find a civilian flight with him. He's frustrated that not fly in the civilian personnel, I can understand that, but you had to had to live with what it was I know, and- and it's kind of like way some of the things you said in your previous podcast talking about when you you tat, you become the boss of your peers. Use what does that quite well? Well, I had to sort out not be in the boss right in this case now in some of the guys I flew with, though I had to help them fly, I think a little bit knobs. They were bad pilots, they just weren't fighter pilots, yet that much but some of the fighter, pilots. I will
flow with were like you and they didn't want to give up the steps, and I had almost fight them. Usa, gimme that snake girls like hill there they were, they were upset that they had to fly with somebody else and the airplane with had a stick in because he had been single seat or so long. So We were friends, but you know I one thing about me as I was always pretty, were able to be straightforward with people and a respect for why, most of the time factor I score thirty. Four on the fast pace, impatient side, so we enable to confront people has never been a problem I can find it. Afore sergeant one time I knew him and he was a really good guy and he said we. I think we should pull the scotch winks and, I said, general. I don't think so. It'd be a mistake. I say here's a b and c and sure enough. The guy went, bang flew one, forty once in fact,
he was aircraft commander of the one. Forty one flew my work colleagues class up to Carlyle barracks to meet with the other war college classes, navy industrial army on airports, I wonder what the guy do. That was had his wings at stake, a swarm say, and he became the graph commander. Why was in trouble? Oh, he was not instructor power, he he was there there. They sent him from a one. Forty one co pilot to be a key. Thirty, eight instructor power and he was a good pilot, but he just couldn't line talking at the same time catch it all and I said, he's already a trained pilot. I don't think we should take his wings and send you back and he did so. But you know I didn't mind confronting the front seat or if he was In sum, I was no way my life was at stake out of sight, tellson those guys. rollin now don't roland now and one until we have used boy
he was one of the more experience ones, but you know you have to on take ownership for things, and sometimes you can be wrong, but most of the time you know you're, probably right alright, I'm going to go back to the book here: fast forward a little bit again. You gotta get a book for it for the rest, these details, but I'm in here I thought, a little bit. The journey from the southern panhandle of north vietnam to Hanoi was a long grueling ordeal for the first few days. They moved me from that from hamlet to hamlet during the daylight at night. They tied me down to boards in bomb shelters. As I can. Completed what suffering might lie ahead. I found encouragement in the words of the apostle Paul cos We also rejoice in our sufferings, because we know that suffering produces perseverance, perseverance, character and character. Hope.
on three occasions. American fighter jets flew in low and attack trucks parked in the trees. Alongside the road we took shelter and foxholes, embalm, shelters and wash. Fireworks a front row seat to the terrors of war. For long chunks of red hot shrapnel sometimes landed, not more than six feet. For me this. It sounds and smells of the bombs and anti aircraft artillery explosions, our endeavours, We asked in my memory war, actually emotions and away that's impossible to describe and difficult to erase my threatening than the bombs were, the attacks from angry peasants, a mob of old women and teens furious over the destruction. American pilots had wrought, rushed toward me wielding rocks, sticks and rice cutting sickles my young north vietnamese escort and the guards under his authority formed a cordon and us You need a safety even absorbing some of the blows several times during the week. Long journey north. This soldier saved my life
in following his orders to transport me safely. He displayed a remarkable balance of toughness and kindness, not only to me, but all to his men and to the civilians we met along the way strong character is markedly apparent even in your enemy again, they must have placed a huge level of value on you. Pilots are kept sharing americans for this guide, I did do such a good job
expecting you from the civilians. Yes, they did, but this guy was special. I found out because a guy who lives up near where I was captured, went to the village, have gotten to know a lot of the forward air controllers who flew over there. Vietnamese guy he went to the village, found the person, the wife of that person that we're talking about, and he investigated a little bit about the sky. He said with a militia, he wasn't gung ho on a communist and he was known for being tough and a really good man and this woman, because the the bombing out of the road and the we had a hurricane. What are they called?
of their come through. Typhoon typhoon come came true and we had to stay at his place for two nights and he had moved out of his house, which his wife and daughter and his father and he had dug into the sand dune right, a wife just up some vague and they were living in a cave, and they took me in that cave and slept between his father and his two year old daughter, tied up slab between them in the back that cave and at night when it was time to eat They saw, I couldn't eat with chopsticks and they brought me a spoon. I had a bowl of rice and they started talking to me and they were treated me like. I was a really nice, fellow and just a visitor to their house. Even though, most of the time I'm tied up the guards are right out the front door there, and this guy went back and interviewed that lady and she told him about me. She said
she's speaking vietnamese, but he has a video of it and says: oh yes, I remember him. He was nice he smiled and he had eyebrows. It went off way across yeah, and they did back them are solid all the way across, and this moment she's got her back think she's. Eighty two, eighty one and eighty two and her daughter, the it was two years old and slept on one I remain his father Courson there, but they were wonderful people and they traded, ilike. I was a guess and then the next day he loaded me up and took me off to van to the camp up there. But still he protected me a couple of times on the way up to vin, because the communist party would get to get a they would get a party leader in the local village would get a bullhorn out here.
Get all fired up. You know work harder, suffer more for the fatherland kind of thing. Look what we've done! You know yeah, yeah and and he'd get them all fired up, and then they come after me and they got the guys who had to they would get hit, sometimes trying to protect me and one time he had the driver of the truck who were travelling in normally you'd travel in the back. But here the driver drive up to the door, opened the door push me on. It told the driver to drop one off through the crowd and to drive we're just pushing the crowd back and one guy jumped up on the hood of the truck and started beating on the windshield cussing at me, pointing at me cussing me yeah. I I and the driver told him to have vietnamese get off. He had his hand, get off, get off, get off the guy didn't do it. The driver just looked over at me and said: oh well, you know he started speeding up and fight.
way the guy looked over and he saw how fast he was gone. The driver was gone, he jumped off on were rolling down the hill and they Robert Kaliko If grant, it was just bizarre muttered. The hanoi was bizarre. is unreal that you know nobody, none of the peer Debbie's I know had that good, protected experience idea. Now I joined up a summit with biller and fisher and warner and Bin, and from then on, we were the tied up in boats and long in the back of a truck, but that was ensure. That was unique. You you end up here in the book. You say my escort deposit me at the collection prison near vin, which was nothing more than a bamboo pole, barn divided into individual cages, each with a pile of straw on the floor for sleeping canada already arrived since the first time again action
right after I was captured. They took yeah the first time I saw him. We were both blindfolded. They took me to a bomb shelter right after I was captured, and her discard breathing heavily now can't have been arrested. have new york state wrestling champion and wrestled in college, so his nose had been smashed. So when he breathed hard, you could hear him, and so I said is that you can and the guards when I had gone outside of that bomb shelter. He said yeah, he, okay, so yeah you, okay, said yeah. They came right back and dragged me out, and I didn't see him again till we got to Ben lieutenant colonel ted mentor and first lieutenant Jim Warner, whose marine f for phantom jet had been shot down a few weeks earlier were also there. We were kept isolated from each other and fed a small bowl of rice, topped by a few greens twice a day a day or so after my arrival, the camp commander, who my dear
secretory lead nicknamed madman. Summon me for my first interrogation. According to the geneva convention capture, shoulders are required, right, name, rank service, number and date of birth. Our code of conduct says that we should resist answering other questions. When I tried to stick with these big, or madman went berserk. He could, the criminal and threatened to kill me on the spot after still refuse to answer. He shouted a command and vietnamese a nearby guard jammed his aching. Forty seven beryl against my head and chambered around still in shock of capture and unsure of how kyoto abuse had actually been treated. I decided to talk a bit more spying, my four aircrew checklist on the table. I admitted that I had been flying the four phantom out of denying madman asked me several more questions about my union command structure. I stalled then gave bogus answers to a couple and did not nose to the rest. That was, to end the interrogation without giving up any meaningful or accurate information other than the big for the next.
Evening under the cover of darkness. The v in this What this is your shorthand throughout the book for the vietnamese cap review com, the v shove the four of us back into the back of a truck accompanied by several armed guards. We headed for how on a bomb, crater parked route, one a the primary coastal route from now. to south with blind fold on and hands and feet tide we crashed up and down on the hard steel truck bed like helpless it's going to market market words cannot equally describe. The agony of that journey, which was high, and by the mental anguish of knowing that every bouts brought us closer to an uncertain fate. Infamous prisons, of annoying. You end up. There are section of the Hanoi. Hilton was known to peered abuse as little vegas, because,
first air force fighter. Pilots have done some training at nellis air force base just outside las vegas nevada, the various wing. of little vegas, were appropriately named after some of the popular casino hotels of that era, the desert in star does gold nugget riviera the men and thunderbird our cell block four men cells were typical, except for them which had three and a half foot by seven. Four. rooms used for solitary confinement are so unfair a bird was six and a half feet wide and seven feet deep about the size of a small walking closet and had masonry wall. Sixteen inches thick one word I face the central courtyard of little vegas and it's opposite wall fronted the main hallway the sidewalls of our cell were separated from the walls of the neighboring cells by narrow hallways. So we could not tap messages through them to other p, o w's camp rules
tat to the inside of our cell, made it clear that anyone communicating with another cell would be severely punished. Armed guard Constantly patrol the halls to ensure compliance, if the door of our cell had an eight inch by ten inch people with a hinged cover, which guards occasionally would flip open to threaten us and make sure we were behaving ourselves. There were four beds about thirty inches wide made from two by six boards that were bracketed to too high through the walls on either side of the doorway, the walking between the bunk bed, measured about eighteen inches from the high ceiling on the single dim light bulb that burn night and day iron leg stocks at the foot of the bed gave this dark and depressing sell. The ominous feel of a medieval dragon amid mediaeval dungeon. at least three times a day. Seven days a week, the v piped in propaganda through a soap box speaker also called camp radio attached high,
one wall, That's a rough that's the sounds of sounds horrible. What do you think and when you get into this place, you know I think you're just wondering what's gonna happen next and the pact it I'm with three other guys emma extrovert, going guy, so that was pretty, Exciting to me to be with three other guys, and I was a younger sky and a junior ranking guy. So Can I just gotta high on you know are you going to say just before bedtime Hanoi Hannah the freedom is version of the infamous tokyo rows of world war. Two shared communist half truths. Now right lies she typically closed or broadcast each night in a sympathetic, ancestrally tone by sea.
Gee eyes: why should you die ten thousand miles from home, lay down your arms now and cross over the people side. The after broadcast we're especially disheartening because they featured americans spouting words that could have been written for them in Hanoi or moscow. Tom Hayden found- of these socialist front organisations. Students for a democratic society was a regular speak later in the war? The v welcome the aid of haines anti war activist, wife, films, our jane fonda, isolated. In that tiny sell. The four of us had plenty of time to get to know each other captain fisher told us how he endured brutal tor sure during his initial interrogation, back it vince to avoid answering any questions beyond the big for at madman and command guards had tied his arms behind his back tossed a rope over a high beam and pulled cans, arms up behind lifting him until you suspended with the weight of his body pulling and tearing at the muscles ligaments
and nerves in his shoulders star collegiate wrestler at new york state, high school and new york state highschool rhett champion was mentally and physically one of the toughest man I'd ever known, but eventually the pain, transform them into a screaming idiot. As we all learn to do so, he had to fall back on to the second line of resistance at times pure Debbie's prayed for death as a relief, but they ve who were experts at torture. Rarely obliged upon Hearing can story, I fell embarrassed and immature. He is offered so much trying to follow the strict letter of the code. While I, given in after threats and a rifle jab to the head when I shared my interrogation encounter with him. He said with sincere kindness. You did debate, you could, under the circumstances, we ended up at the same place, giving them something that was nothing that x. Gimme a glimpse of the character of this man? Who
be a stalemate, an inspirational leader for the next five years, the other that little piece, a leadership right there. You know here's the sky that withstood this. I mean the description, horrible torture and you tell em here, but they put a gun to my head. My told them. You know today I told them some information and he's looking? Said he I did the best he could, that that day had left an impact on you with that with him as an individual him as a leader. It did you know, and then the next time we got ah was the same thing he went lot longer than I did. I went lot longer than somebody else. There.
Oh, you know because can didn't have any experience with any of the other pure dubious, who had been there He was a very level headed die just a great later. You know he was a really good thinker and even some of the things that he's dead after we came home like one. come here to squander commanders for women first started flying and therefore some one of them was in charge of the flying squadron, the other one in charge of the students quarter and they weren't handling the flying squadron very appropriately when the women there, and so KEN realized that he needed to do something and he didn't fire him. He switched them. He put the guy and brought in the student squadron in charge of the flying squadron and the guy in charge of applied squadron and charges,
this quarter and they both a great they're, both got promote the colonel, and it was just a brief move of how he saw what the situation was and what would be the best solution, and I think in and appeal Debbie situation. He was a great example. And you know I Didn'T- have the choice of being put in the ropes, or being hung by the ropes like he was, in that case losses Why she was, ah, you know, was death in my case. I nothing he saw there. I didn't know that they will kill me why wouldn t enough I think you took all that into account in a really good way, but he realized, probably at that point that are probably needed to be more com.
but if and when leaders are able to help their people believe that they let them know they believe venom. They become more effective and more confident and next time they gonna come through stronger. So that's really important leadership point and I've been bert. water in my life, growin up and high school college days in a military. I've had leaders have believed in me. I and before I am today. If I hadn't have leaders have believed in me and and how may become the person. I am that I sizes think its haste He showed me tat a great example dire a course later, hey relieved, the lieutenant And what command did not sell you So he was done yes, very wise, not perfect it our member after a few months- and I finally decided well he's not perfect- I can give him for that. But
for a while. I thought you were just part, the question we should ask the lot is now: how can I get this individual to step up into a leadership and start becoming a leader parliamentary? the position, put someone a leadership position, you're telling them hey. I believe you should be in this leadership position. I believe that you can lead and guess what they start doing. They start acting like a leader most of the time, occasionally new. If someone is not ready for ultra, they have been Have the right attitude yet, but often times you just. If someone a junior individual, say hey. I want you to run this operation, I want you, run this project and they they see that you believe in them and that makes them believe themselves. It's a good move. Speaking of this relief we'll get into this, because I think it's important an important bold move that happens here a guy named lieutenant colonel mentored. It's actually not his real name, it of made up name to be gentle.
I guess with the situation. While he had five sons, and I thought that when I wrote that book I wrote out for his sons. I didn't want to put his time they're right so lieutenant colonel mentor was summoned to more interrogations in the rest of us that seem natural at first, as the senior ranking officer s our role in our room. He is potentially the highest value target for exploitation, but over time we realised that mentors views were not aligned with are ours, The policy of our government, a soldier, has the obligation to do his best to uphold the code of conduct, which in includes resisting exploitation by the enemy. What might be acceptable for a civilian back home in our free society is totally out of line for a military person, especially appeal w one day, minter came back from an interrogation with pencil and paper and began writing an extensive description of the organization responsibilities of a marine air wing. We cautioned him that his Operation was a violation of a code of conduct, but he said he didn't see any problem
later when he was called out of the room for an interrogation. We looked at the paper and saw that it contained information that appeared, accurate and value to the enemy, a clear breach of the code captain fisher as the next senior officer Marcel told bhutan, I wonder and me that he felt- held to remove lieutenant colonel meant or from command. He asked if we agreed It is a very serious and risky step for a captain to relieve lieutenant colonel of command. If competent authority did. support cans action. He would likely face a court martial for insubordination. We also risk court martial for our involvement, but we- Can was right, so we gave Our whole hearted support. When men too, returned to the room can said your willing cooperation with the enemy. In writing. This paper is a violation of the code of conduct. I am removing you from command and ordering you destroy. That document had ceased. Operating with the enemy. If you did
obey these orders. I will personally seek a court martial against you. After the war, that's friggin awesome major said he did not believe the code of conduct applied in this case because we are not in a declared war. In his opinion, everyone is free to do as he saw fit. That was a knocking the irresponsible attitude for a military officer. Only a few months previous. He had told friends that he hoped A general now is comments made him. Look like a selfish survivor. Who'd forsake his beloved core is friends, is roommates and even his country to save his hide that, even lieutenant colonel mentor, ripped up the doktor in fruit in the waste bucket, but his behavior, over. The subsequent years indicated that he never had a change of heart sets a bold, that's a bold move, thank your the your more junior than the than the senior officer, and you say, hey you're, not in charge anymore. I am and by the way, I'm the court martial you after the war, the few resist this year
takes courage and believing you know we was obvious. What was right and there was evident enough evidence for him to make that decision and so on who courageously set up and data endeavour not to canada. Can work us! So I had this courageous role model living with twenty four hour they actually for five years? In fact, we ve been home, copper years, and the hit only been married for two and a half years. Twenty was captured and his why we were his wife and him in my life on our social, about and she came and says LI l us I want you to know. I've lived him with can fish
are longer than you have now, but he was a great sell, knight and a real. He helped me mature. You know I I needed maturity and lots of different ways and watching him learning from him helped me to grow and be the person that I needed to be, and so I got tougher are wiser ma, and I say I dont know to what degree vienna would say this, but my own courage, group. I thought I was pretty courageous, but I think it
again courage because I knew what I wanted to do. I wanted to live up to the code of conduct, can be a good american and be faithful to my teammates. Do my job, and so I was willing to take risk. I was pretty good risk taker, I'm in the camp. I was found it easy to take risk in communicating and things like that, cause I'm. I know I'm good at it, so I figure I can do it and get away with it. So they brought this a three page, biography questionnaire for us to fill out And we failed it out and put name rank service number date of birth, accept ferment or who failed it in and then they all the other three of us out to interrogate and threaten us. It was funny because they had a new interrogator there and he came in and he would say I don't I don't want to hurt you. I don't want to bother you, but you you're good
porsche, and you should do this and it'll be all right. You know da da Da Da, he was a nice guy, okay and then you say no and then the bad guy comes here, we're going to torture you and they go back and forth for an hour or two and then, when we didn't fill it in so then we they put us in handcuffs and tied our feet and put us on our knees up against the wall with our hands over our head, which you know no big problem, but after six or eight hours you start fallen over and then they start coming in and start kicking you and baiting you and you get back up, and after six or eight more hours, you've been up and down and been kicked and beaten. And all of this, though, finally, after don't know the next day, probably thirty six hours, I decided well, I'm going to give in I'm going to give them something. Ain't gonna be nothing, but among
and so I told them- I would do it and I filled in the three pages and everything on it was a lie except for my dad's first and last name and everything else was just made up. You know education, money. What everything was just totally made up while I get back to the room- and I wasn't the first one back but after a while, but but when I did that when I did when I agreed to do it, I laid there and cried. I was so sad because I was not tough enough to beat him. I felt shame. I feel like the most worthless piece of crap that everyone a uniform cause. I was unable to Peter. My duty was to beat him and I can beat him. give anything, but the fact that I'd filled it in that was it
first time on ever really come to grips with the reality that at some point. You know you got a fall back to a second round. Now, did winnable put a gun to my head earlier ahead. but there was no different than just being tortured and been painful, uncomfortable and been beaten and kick tonight now and then, when you got back to how can fisher do well? Ah he came back to and he He had done the same thing, but he was for four hours longer than may survive, so he whatever they may be. Laugh because that led to the arena zeal deeds you ever it's always compete with. Everybody else. Are you guys are key jesse? You could take torture longer exactly and does so The full creates quick. As we got communication, though we found out tat
Everybody had been through it and done the same thing. Everybody had filled out that biography. So then I thought. Well, I guess I'm not quite as worthless as well, though, but ken was good about it too again. He helped me under and that he didn't go much longer than I did, and he had done it too, but we didn't give him any information Given a little bit more about your life, there for the first two years. The feeling of hunger never left us food is most power. We are a topic of conversation, especially when it was cold and our bodies needed more calories just to stay warm upon awakening in the winter months. I would realize I'd been dreaming about walking down a cafeteria line, selecting a breakfast of eggs, bacon, sausage, toast orange juice and coffee. But in reality, are typical was a bowl of thin greasy vegetable soup, accompanied by either cup of rice or eight inch bag of bread. We joked demand you had lots of variety, a change three times a year, since the view
cooked outside a big part, small, bugs and white worms would regularly drop into the soup from overhanging trees. Every august weevils would hatch in the flower, so the bread would be tampered with black buggers having. better to do one afternoon I counted for before and one cubic inch of bread. There were too many to pay doubts. We just ate them figuring. They were a good source of protein. winters in hanoi were surprised me, cold with temperatures, often low forties, fahrenheit, sometimes lower the chilly air blowing in through our barred open window covered only with a written matt made, our unheeded cell feel like an ice box. It was also called because our meagre rations provided in efficient energy, to stay warm through the long nights we survived. By putting every bit of clothing, we own two pairs of thin pajamas and intercom sweater and wrapping ourselves and our blanket for them
two years. We had no socks, so our feet never got warm in the winter. The pew w experience produced severe mental, an emotional stress hour after hour. We found ourselves battling an army of oppressive feelings from fee. About what might happen to us to anger at our captors for the way they treated us to disappointment for being shot down to guilt for leaving our families in the lurch and in the dark maintain a positive mental outlook was crucial to survival. Military leaders expect life to be difficult, yet they tend to be optimistic about their bill, ability to six their capability to succeed. They are trained to make them asked of the situation by solving problems instead of stewing about them and they place I value and cohesive teamwork. Fortunately, that's it kind of leadership. We had in Hanoi, a fuel, our bodies, who had more passive Stick temperaments occasionally needed extra measures of encouragement from the rest, to us
turn. They frequently contributed a healthy, healthy dose of realism that balanced our optimism with objectivity and discipline vice admiral james bond stockdale, incite captured the importance of this dynamic tension in what Jim com. once called the stockdale paradox quote: you must, never confuse faith that you will prevail in the end which You can never afford to lose with the discipline to in fact, the most brutal facts of your current reality: water where they might be yeah. That's just a critical way of thinking right having the positive mindset that we can overcome whatever this challenges, but not, being pollyanna, anne and saying oh yeah, we'll be fine, no there's gonna be struggles and we have to face reality for what is ya. Think so,
It was very, very important. You know I remember I was shadow in november, sixty seven. in early sixty eight, I said you If there's going to be an olympics in mexico city the summer we'll be home, because I knew that president Johnson really would have to do something with the war to get reelected. That was my thinking. I didn't know it, but My thinking I sat there will in this war, will be home by the summer. I might go to mexico, go ngos olympics well July coms and I moved to saunter has still there and I said well made it seven months. I can make it for another year. Well, that was one more!
during the summer of sixty nine. I said I can make it two more years, but it was really three three and a half, so you know you the p o w 's. It became a wildlife and the fact that we had great leadership? The fact that we did get communication, we communication communicated covertly, but we were able to fight as a team with common enemy and to care about each other and look after each other. We would risk our lives too. Somebody and say man, we're proud of. You hang in there labour without you so It was a saw, the leadership, the teamwork and a commitment of our leaders that day they got torture, alderman
and they would do things much worse and wayward we would do on actually, but they would bout right back and come back cause. I did the best they could and I both back and I put a good policies and they live by It was an amazing experience, such while road tat book, as I think that just the principles that we ll, earned and live by. There are good everywhere. You know there are no doubt about it and envy. Here's the thing about it, you couldn't hide, you couldn't pretend
Because somebody was going to be watching you twenty four hours a day, three hundred and sixty five days a year. There was no way you could hide anything. So you just confessed to all upright and- and I think gives a pride peace and you know confessing. Coming back to the cell and saying I did fill out that three page biography, but I didn't tell them anything honest, nothing, real, no, true facts except for my dad's name, but it was still painful at times, but I think we realise that was a wild life either. There's you capture some of that in here. You say when you are at the mercy of an enemy who has the power? Who has the power to force you to do things against your? Will? The psychological impact can be unimaginably depressing and debilitating. His goal is to break you and you must costly fight to maintain your self respect and optimism. Most of us did this
two primary ways. First, we fought maintain our belief in ourselves and our competency by resisting the enemy in exercising our autonomy at every opportunity in order demonstrate that our lives till had worth and we are not just helpless. We have. find ways to get our links and often using tricks and subtle acts of rebellions as weapons. Sunlight rebellions weapons. Every time appear, w outsmarted, the ve, no matter how trivial the incident, the other. yoda abuse, were encouraged and in poland and I really like that idea. You know enough modern era of working out of lifting weights and and doing work out. They have something they call scalable work out, meaning off we're gonna do away lifting exercise of really dead lift and I condemn lift three hundred and you can dead, lift five hundred. We both do work out, but I'm just lifting less weight than you, but we're still both gonna go and do our best.
and I wrote down here noted scaled victories because any it's like anything that you could do to just get a shot at the v was like victory that your could celebrate. That's so good for morale and the fact that the fact you d, have you got all kinds of jokes and hear me, you guys would fill out information and you would be the the lieutenant clark Kent was the It was the first you talk about just all these like jokes, that you that you would play or every time someone would sneeze or there's a guy that would sneeze that would sneeze into every one of his sees will be horse. Shit you do know every word here at all. You guys here there's a guy that had the talk about the topic They talk about ho men. They com him horsham in You know lieutenant all go onto a year- he's he's in this he's forced to take a picture, a propaganda picture and in the picture
you can see. He's he's got his middle fingers up on both hands and I've got This at some point in my life, I'm gonna get all these well certain, black and white photos that mean locked me hung up and that's one of those photos matter put up their just. You can see him it's as neat in clean, I don't know why they have that word up there, but they have meat in clean above him on the wall, and it in there and avenues, photograph taken and you look at his hands in his flippin off the camera fingers and those little victories middle scaled victories there guys had to keep. The positive attitude, even when things are horrible yeah you have to to find a way to fight back and keep doing Cutting back in that way gave us some. Actress made us feel like well
You know they may be in control, but we still controlled some things and that they made everybody feel good. It made the individual feel good and it just became Way of life, we're gonna look for ways to make them look bad enough. Look good Lily enemy. You are able to do a lot. You know in the book, after you talk about that that torture that you went through for these document you go in there and you you talk about John Mccain and just powerful story about John Mccain. Then on point you know they're trying to get him. You know his dad's admiral they're, trying to use them as a propaganda, peace their torturing him, but now watching him. What even I'd be more effective. As their say, hey, you can go home early they're, saying hey, you should go home. They tell him that the president's tell him to go home there just trying to get him
to break ranks and point he he's like answering as loud as he can so that you can hear he san. I'm not going home a am home and taught my turn Our powerful was out for you guys to here. Well, huge, because you know, went to think about going home when european job. You may not too hard I should be put in Hell. You hear wife and kids back home. His father was unable he'd he'd been had. Are both arms were broken when he was captured when helped out the airplane. The injury from the objection was so bad. It cutting of feed himself, so he'd been through a lot of suffer. but for him to yellow out you it was. It was a double whammy, because I'm one way he say until the guys, I'm with you guys
and the other why he was saying to their enemy. I gonna do what you want me to do, that was a double whammy and it was very powerful, very powerful, and you know he was always kind of a quick thinker to make trouble. I was part of his wasn T. Right, lasted the naval academy last us and I was reading a historic being written right now, his first marriage about that stuff. In all, and he was always a kind of a while and woolly guy. You know so he played a role there. He was courageous, but also willing to take some risk. You there's something about the guys that are gonna go fight in war, and there a decent chance that, if you want to etiquette your life to going in fighting wars theirs. decent chance. You might not be the best follower of food of the way it is. You might be a little bit.
Tenancy. No, I talk about the seal teams like there's a theirs criminal element, your brain for a lot of guys in the seal teams. Just hey! What do you want to do? What do you to do when you grow up? I want to go and shoot machine guns at people That's not a normal thing to be thinking, so you get these guys, you go you that's what it's like a good attack, doc right, good attacked. You dont want is a family dog right, you don't want You don't want to attack dog in your house when I'm on the battlefield, but you don't want him in your house. You don't want your neighborhood the You can have them really really well trained, then you can have one in your house may be based on watch it so you're for your guy, like Mccain, whose, though the last in his class the naval gotta, be in your hand, as a reputation for conduct laws and problems that exist we, the kind of guy you want these cases. It was some we needed.
Different kinds of people. There were all similar and a lot of ways because you can't go through flight school. no physically mentally go through. All the requirements apply school, go! the training and then become a fighter pilot without him something similar to the other people in factor. There's a book guy. I have brought with me today. I wish I knew how'd you that? But there are five categories of similarities between fighter pilots and one of my visit there, there are very aggressive and risk workers, but there are also a failure to have they like to be around people today. Tell her war stories. You tell you now and it might have made by good team. The fact that we were team players, but we are also capable operating on our own envy and confident about going in executing emission. I think that was
consistent our guys were willing to take riskin. Yet they wanted to be together and take care of each other. It didn't it wasn't okay to be not concerned about your teammates, They are not, sir. When people ask me what makes a good seal its debate easy answer. Give it's the the one that's going to take care of his team and put put the team ahead of himself yup. That's that's a good seal, are you give a really crazy and horrific description of arm? Who is it rising, lieutenant colonel right, Robbie rise, not here, and He had like a picture, a picture of his family or somethin in and they they ve wanted it to use it for propaganda. He he ripped it up and threw at the bottom of the of the of the can that you had in the in the cell, and so they are they want to get this pair.
so they tortured. Here you go go into the book, your never to force him to produce the photos. The guard severely be robbie and put him through rope. Torture, the ropes or pretzel as it was some caught sometimes called was a terrifying and brutal method for breaking pure debbie's asked the prisoners legs were tied together, his arms were lace tightly behind his back until the elbows touched on the shoulders were virtually pulled out of joint, then the torture would push the bound arms up and over the head, while applying pressure with a knee to the victim's back during torture. The circulation is cut off in the lines go to sleep about. The joint pain continues to increase as the ligaments and muscles tear, When the ropes are finally removed circulation surges back into the dead limbs, causing excruciating pain, when the v eventually learned what rising or had done with the photos. They furiously inflicted more church torture upon robbie until he redesign of confession and an apology for committing quote grave crimes under
such severe torture. No pew w could resist signing signing these for statements. We took some comfort in the fact that they invariably sounded phony because they were dictated by the v using awkward sent in structure and expressions that no American would use. Sometimes they were so ridiculous that they made the v look foolish after torture, the guards borders the window and rising or sell making it so dark tat? He couldn't see the walls robbie it ever been afraid of the dark, but me immediately begin have panic attacks in later describing this episode. He said it was as if I had an animal on my back absolute panic set in the fact that I couldn't control. This thing driving me cause me to be even more panic stricken she- desolation permeated the miserable dark cell. I lived in twenty four hours a day right There's only relief was to keep moving and praying. He would wish around his cell, often covering as many as twenty miles a day and do pushups and sit up until he was exhausted. Enough fall asleep if you
taken during the night he had resumed exercising until he was again exhausted enough to sleep it was a maddening existence at times he wanted to scream. But since then, would bring more turk torture. He would hide under his mosquito nets. Stuff thing in his mouth rap is blanket around his head and just holler until the anxiety east. Often he added talk himself into making it through one more minute and then one more minute, as he put it quote, I literally lived one minute at a time, after ten months of darkness, the knife we passed in june I sixty eight, the v removed robbie into the go move good robbie into the golden nugget section of little vegas for marcel about forty feet away. We heard a moaning and screaming and nightmares throughout the first night then today, when Robbie shutters were opened, I saw it tired, but smile We face for the first time during see
after a while the guards were generally less alert. Reisner and I made contact over the next few days. He shared his story and basic guidance by writing with his index finger on his open palm one letter of the alphabet. At a time it was clear that he had a lot of fight left in him his car serve as an inspiration for the rest of us in them and years ahead I mean the solitary confinement is one thing, but solitary confinement in complete darkness for ten arts. Three hundred days. In the first time you see he's gotta smile on his face. He looked up.
an old old man. He was forty four so by that time, but he looked in his sixties. He was so wrinkled and pitiful looking, but he smiled and I could tell he was exercising and it was just amazing. You know
was positive. You know he I use when I'm speaking, I use three of our senior leaders, reisner stockdale and denton as an example, and they were all different personality. Stockdale to very introverted results. Mission, focused sky, stoic tantrum was a very outgoing politician. Kind of guy and riser had some of both. He would. You know kind of a mixture of that twenty percent of the population has some above, but russia was just an incredible guy. He was so honest and he was the senior ranking officer there, except for when we had some three corals captured in late. Nineteen sixty seven, but they kept him isolated for
from off so riser was the acting commander of all denton was a stockdale singer naval officer, but these three guys they supported each other, and I just provided a great example rise. Your head, incredible ability to bounce back and be positive and do the shameful things he did like. Take all that torture and then write that confession or whatever it was and then vouch back again. And and and part of it. We know when you talked about this taking ownership, but when you do something and- that you say: hey look was when I went through in this. What I did and and act that everyone just kind of was honest with each other and olive oil. Always Old people, when you take ownership or something it's like overcoming an obstacle, but once you get on the other side, I feel so much better. Now you get
no lie you're, making something up. You ve not telling you, parents, the truth, you're, not telling your team the truth about. What's going on, you feel that heavy burden and the many say, listen everything I'll talk to you- the plan that I can, with its not work, and we need to change it, let its sole liberating to do that and in no. I often talk about you know if you want to get through some trauma you ve been through you gotta, and say hey. This is what I did just one think I should have done. You know when you combat things happening, combat in a lot of veterans. Suffer from this during combat things, don't go. The way you want to go in. I look at it and say hey. This is what I think I could have done better this. I should have made this move. I should have move left instead of right or right and settle after whatever the case may be that I think helps you get through these things, and it seems like that helps only people in the camp both when it. Happening right after
happens, and then you know, I'm sure, we'll talk about it. The way that you all came out, I talked about it with, with charlie plumbing William readers well cycle logically further absent hell- you all- had lived through cycle quickly. You are actually you where were you did great in comparison, I think a lot of that you might have my assessment as I look at it now how to do the fact that you all took off ship of what you did. You too, you took ownership of your limitations right I can only take so much of this and I signed a paper you. I think it it really did help us to be ok with ourselves gave us actually more confidence in the long run of dealing with things and on a thing that happened was the fact tat we live together. You couldn't hide things. You know people going to see you you can.
it's gonna come out, and so we you that and so is therefore just we live totally transparently completely transparently with each other, and so it was a step made us really so much stronger healthier increase our teamwork and our trust for each other, because it's not my bad. We knew would find out right away and, of course, Then being locked up like that- and we could talk about this later- but I want to make sure to mention it now- is that because of what the wise and families did back home, they got our torture stopped and late. Sixty nine and early seventy change the party scale my change policy, the communist government, and so everybody in the world was put pressure on them about our treatment and so who'd you men died in september, sixty nine as soon as
they could celebrating his funeral and the new leaders came in. They started rearranging the treatment so. The last three years we were there with more live and let live, and we had time to decompress and get over our trauma with people who had been through and we had so I feel bad about what I went through, but you ve been here too years longer and you are tortured for the ropes three times and I didn't through the ropes and now again feel bad about what has happened to me. I gotta feel bad about what happened to you and we we got some healthier than pure w. Ptsd is like four percent. Here we have a pure debbie ptsd much lower than combat veterans, because we people to talk true,
who had been through war. Shall we had for years locked up within twenty four hours a day they we didn't just get on airplane and come home and your buddies died over here today and tomorrow you fly I call on you having dinner with your family. You thinking about the trauma that is it a totally different situation. So we came home berber healthy in in the culture that end because of me other things we did while we were there You talk about rising her here, you say risers first camp first in escape as sorrow did not. Last long, the ve found a written note that contained his guidance and connected it back to him determined to squelch his leadership in the camps. They pulled rise in or out of the zoo campaign, Hanoi and returned him to heartbreak hotel in the honeoye hilton and begin extent. if tortured, a break him, because the problem- As for selecting s, our leaders was clearly established commander
incident in the next ranking officer at the zoo immediately stepped into the line of fire as part of the dramatic change in treatment in the fall of nineteen sixty five, the v were now torturing men to extract propaganda statements. Denton Ria formed rising. this policy and added? No writing. No taping take tor until you are in danger of losing mental faculties and then give a funny story, die before giving classified information if broken dont despair bout as soon as you can to the hard line. Remember: unity, above self den, simple motto of unity above self provided a strong cultural bond for all of us, even when we are isolated or shuffled from one camp to another. When denton strong leadership became evident to the v. They ushered him off to the torture chamber, followed by solitary confinement, fortunately James bond came to the rescue Jane
bond stockdale. That is bouncing back from one of his extended periods of abuse, in solitary confinement, heat command from his cell and little vegas from bird cell block in the spring of nineteen sixty seven one of his first task was to update the policies previous We disseminated by red rise now and then using the clever acronym back us- and here you go through the act, the knocker, the acronym back us be boeing resin, bowing in public in front of outsiders, make the v use force, and this is because the the vietnamese now was show respect. So we're not doing it. Air air, stay off the air make no recordings for radio and no tapes see crimes. Admit to any crimes k kiss don't kiss the enemy good bye if pure w's were stockdale, did not want them to be overly generous in their comments on the way out, and the last is, is us
unity over self stay, united, take care of each other. big three rise nurse. Beyond den established the code of conduct as the goal, while recognising that not even the toughest men had been able to live up to a purely literal interpretation for time. A somewhat loose tight culture evolved. It provided strong, clear guidelines yet allowed each cell s our and even each individual to exercise some judgment in dealing with various situations, the goals and expectations in power to a common cause. general mindset that allowed us to operate with unity across half a dozen camps over a period of several years, whether we were in solitary confinement or law in large cells. When there was disagreement about local interpretation, we had discussions that sometimes
turning a passionate arguments before decisions were made when necessary s arose changed or adapted policies as a result of lessons learned so This is just a you know. I one of the laws of combat that dave, and I talk about a lot. It's an extreme owners. We talk about. All tat is decentralized command and this view decentralized command, where this solid guidance came out and it allowed everybody in prison camps in twelve different camps. The frontline person may not communicate with anybody for further extended the times, but they understand what the goal is, and they can all move in the right direction towards that strategic goal and even others, flexibility in that in the way that they get there. This is fair, powerful lesson here. The ideas I know the new chief of staff of the air force is pushing that right now is to set the boundaries, the big picture, boundaries and let
People at the lower levels operate, and I think he sat. But yes, it was powerful frost because communication was hard, we were separated. We will move different places. Different camps are always dead, pull out some people camp and moving to another camp and for If you know any com, you have a bureaucracy, they make decisions up there, the communists were the same. We can ever could figure out some of their moves but reality was it. We understood what our mission was, what our goals were and what to do this, you boundaries and rules that we need it, and then that we're gonna go for years. Good example that is you you talking here about receiving to care packages which you are occasionally loud to receive these care packages, was it from your families are son and the other one camp. There were like package's from family, you so your first one that you get
You know you had do apply this these principles because in it you had, you in order to get the package and this packages like I mean and sent for all practical purposes it could have food could have closer. I mean just not to mention communication from your loved ones, and yet they wanted you to sign somethin some kind of confession. Was basically a paper a little one pager. That said in, in accordance with their lenient inhumane policy- and that was too much for you too much and sir you decided- I don't want the package will end, next time than other pact. It came and they actually remove that statement. No more shameless, never had one again and you got. You took your package. What was in the package? Let's see there were some coffee and there were some candy
and there were some socks. That's what I wanted some socks, maybe a piece of fruit cake little things like that. I was on deployment and You know my wife, my wife's at home, with three kids are all under the age like six, so it's like six. Four too, I mean she's just overwhelmed. as though she's not worried about me. I'm overseas likes you get bigger, think a bigger problem to solve on a daily basis- and you know, The petitions are getting their packages from their wives and from their parents and stuff you big nice beautiful backwards. Finally, like three, and send it appointment. I get a package from from equal, it's got. I like honey, roasted, peanuts and or its others. There's a little kid.
if honey, roasted peanuts, but they'd already been opened, half feet and they were taped back shut as a god bless her she's doing the best he can go she's one of the kids got into it or whatever. So she set out for some tape on it will be alright yep. You gotta give them credit bra hundred percent. Like I said I, she was deal with three little kids and not not worried about deftly not worried about me we talk a little bit about coming. the and the importance communication and the cap, unification everywhere were sittin here talking about it. You know about you. would not word in and how the information you knew this person respected this person, and you got guidance and all these things are happening happening in them. most restrictive imaginable, communication environment and somebody
The book here you say it would be safe to say that in the earliest early years and small cells, fifty percent of our waking hours were spent in covert communications. Later in larger cells. Fewer people were needed, our new technologies and the less threading environment. Communications were much more efficient over the years we use tap code hand code, flash code, morse code, cough hack, spit code sweeping code voice through the walls notes over the walls, notes under the doors and more because they knew it was our primary tool for resistance. They ve tried hard to stop us, but they never could. cause of our poor treatment nominal? for a little bit. So you had all these different methods. Oh for communicating and the fact that you you you! You mentioned this in here on the others tat code, the the matrix, the five I thought I'd buy five matrix
it is a way of communicating, When I was a young seal, I was a radioman and we had, or morse code was probably pretty close to the point where I could kind to do it without thinking about it, but I never quite got there, but you know you're talking in the book at some point just do it. I mean who is like without thinking the letter. I wish you could immediately just get it done and there is a whole group of you that could dec. Indicate on this high level with these tap codes and that's how all this information was past. It's just incredible story and that tat code, tapping through to somebody on the other side of the wall, especially in the early years, for there are a couple of guys in solitary confinement and had contracts torture. Now it was like It was the most incredible thing to keep them motivated inspired connected.
Emotionally ah mentally going- and you know it one guy was in solitary confinement and he wanted to know about he wanted. He wanted to know by shakespeare, so some guy next to a new some subjects: versa and and eight guy. All the through gave maldives could remember and they just made it because I didn't want to tell him. We don't know anymore, so whatever it was. We were gonna share it and make it dressing guys, I share all sorts of information. I remember our at times. You know you you're, in cell, with four five guys like I was on a sunday and so you know them, you been locked up with him for a while, and so you get off on your own project.
So one time I formed for two months- and there was a farmer from mob kit, kansas living next door, rice thoughts and So I go with whenever I needed a question answered about farm, and I was quite sure about us through the wall, I would ask leroy and he would tell me water how many feet of Barbara warner role, a barber, ok and humming to row a barber, normally costs, and then I go by calculate solace. anthony anna twenty acres of farm there that day, so you go through do in all this. The things and one time. Another time I was going to be a lawyer when I went home I was just decided okay. What if I wanted to do something different it'll, be a lawyer and it took me a month, and I mean I would think for this for hours every day, so I had to fight more about different council law. So it s a guy's question and still finally, the decided I'd. Ex lawyer and I go to
university of virginia and all we have gone through a hammer. This was going by. You know our final learn so much with tap coding. Then we rolled up the blankets and we could talk to her because a blank it would be. A muffler like old donor, are like a horse power put your place, real tight and you could talk real loud and they couldn't hear you out there and a guy on the other side could hear everything you said, and I would ask questions that way. So I could get information to you know work on my project, Speaking of the tap code, you say because of poor treatments, smitty Harris and fred flom, firstly, U s. A F were fighting losing battles with debilitating gastrointestinal disease through a crack. Our door. We watch smitty and fred stagger across the courtyard to the bath ass, their emaciated bodies, rem, reminiscent of survivors of outwards and baton. Smiting w wait, had dwindled from a hundred and thirty pounds. To about ninety freddy,
From a hundred and forty, down to about one ten, so tat s our own technic mender render Creighton realized. It would take drastic action to save the lives of these men. Using the tap he sent an urgent message that was transmitted across the entire compound, every english speaking vietnamese, you mean that commander must do something for harrison. Flom or his superiors in Hanoi are going to be very upset with him about what is going to happen in this camp by threatening to make trouble. We were virtually inviting reprisal, this ploy especially risky, because a review that we had a cohesive team with good communications. Once the enemy realized, we will organise a military unit with a functioning operational leader they just I try to break us. Nevertheless, the seriousness of the situation justified the risk. The next
pew debbie's across the camp delivered the bold agreed upon messaging, rapid fire succession. If only one or two guards it received the message that they would have downplayed it, but our for communication resounded across the camp like a string of firecrackers that couldn't be ignored Evidently, the v cap commander camp commander, fearful footers job, was, can We had the will and capability to carry out our threat three days. After the message hit, smitty infrared were taken to a field hospital a few miles away, given fluoroscope. This was found by two shots twice, do that were apparently vitamins and antibiotics. Their improvement was oh but steady a year later they were back to their normal peered up. You wait probably fitting that the code was instrumental that the code that was instrumental in savings median harris's life cause. Smitty was the man who saved all of us by bringing the tap code to the p o w camps, in fact, who is known to us, as the code bearer
When smitty was in survival school, he alone state after class one day to learn about the code used by pewter abuse in world war. Two then, as one of the first peeled abusing the war, he passed this precious gift onto his fellow prisoners. Now four years later, the coded come full circle and say his life amazed. Beneath the first time you got like the little bit the code someone's tell you your window, but you didn't get there. The smithy learn missing letter that scene k. There's no kay five by five twenty five letters in the alphabet. You remove get it out, It is ninety three it we ninety four next April he was appealed w for almost eight years. I think he was number five or six and his wife was had two little girls, fog and three. I thank and she was six months pregnant with their son, but time and credible guy. I live with many for copper years and in
same camp with him for probably close to five years but which they really close. France and he has a book out. Cap coded came out three years. go and I wrote to forward to it to talk about Mary and what a great guy was and what a great example he was for me. You mentioned the bean saunter for a while, and I that's how we originally got connected, because I hadda terry butler. who is a anti raider and easily Connected with me, with you what how, when the sunday rate happened, how'd you hear about it. What did it? Do you guys? What did you think about while we were? We move to this new showplace camp, they want to show the world how well were being treated and we the bombs goin off there was a bomb attack to kind of distracting attention and
some we knew something was happening that night and then the next day we could tell but the guards the way they were acting and turn keys and guards were like, oh and then the next morning we moved back to Hanoi. They load this all up and then built this camp and put two hundred and five four quadrants of about fifty each in one camp were in separate quadrants, but were all one location so as turn far above affair and the forty eight hour within forty eight hours, I moved all of us back to hanoi and put it into the sell, the large room cells where the beer amaze had been back for the early years. We had never been in there So we went into these big sales and wanted this eighteen per square put self with fifty two guys in there.
No walls, and they are just eighteen heard, open by barracks, typesetting, concrete slab, asleep on back to sunday, hearing it hearing that night heard it from showplace camp. We didn't know what was happening and then because they got scared and moved us back. We start listening at one of the guys hurts on their proper. Something about the berry. Go water had said that we could dropper men in downtown Hanoi or something like that, and they could. Stop us or something and neck tat, a strange and then The next time we really found out was when somebody guys you shoot down, told us and that was a while later, maybe about a year later, we really found out for sure what had happened. How exalting was it to be in a room with
the other people would have all these other people they interact with. Well, it was. It was a celebration because we had I mean there were some hard part to put day the good things elbow overwhelmed, the difficult part because within a couple of weeks a senior ranking officer looked around found the one guy who had been on college instructor in declare and Rob had been recalled on active duty in nineteen, sixty two and stayed near force and captain tat story. He said tom I'm put you in charge of the education programme I want to make it happen. Tom found a piece of broken brick tile out in the yard, brought it in and went over on the concrete slant floor over in the corner and started writing down subjects. Study, math, german, french, spanish, russian art,
and had us go by and put a mark under the once. We want to study so he took a survey and then he recruited teachers and so within three or four weeks we had monday when supplied a class susie search saturday classes. Three hours from morning to our in afternoon we had toastmaster. It's informal on tuesday nights on one end of the room for them all. On thursday nights- and we had every kind of class you can think of, I was studying spanish, french and german teaching beginning french. I took differential calculus from a naval academy guy and we were problems when the corner with that piece of broken brutal, and he was teaching me so I Mugabe's he may know were so busy,
about paul glancing, Paul. The lady and I win their together and we would speak spanish, french and german for ten minutes see three or four days awake, We got to the point where we were dreaming and foreign languages. Albion, speaking spanish, somebody in a foreign language. I didn't have a fair and honest or conversation with them in my dream. So that's that's what I like became yeah the the amount of effort that you guys made in it I can hear you say a number of officers developed a rigorous curriculum in volunteer to teach the various components. Of course this was that you The teach an officer candidate school for the three air force enlisted guys, so you guys put together a course of construction for these enlisted air for Skies
and you see this when the three men returned home, the: u S, congress approved a programme and offer the candidates commissions as second lieutenant. In the u s, air force, one was so close to retirement. He declined the. two men accepted their commissions and enjoyed successful careers unbelievable you going to say, the lack of books are outside. Resources did not live in our continuous learning in appear, w camps relied on recall, past education, and there was a lack of clarity but when there was a lack of clarity in the subject, we try to get a consensus of the best. Eventually many areas were codified into what we called annoyed fact meeting. Was accepted as true until we were released and could verify the information the in house, Joe, that some men whose education have been slighted before capture and now probably posters experts had been totally educated by henry fact for it turned out. Our facts were amazingly accurate. Our investment in developing and development is it begged evidence in the years since I cannot believe it.
Two guys just yeah yeah. You guys learned we're gonna, give you guys your commission incredible, yeah and You know similar and as that same group, I think it was a group liked him. If not same group. There were four of them. four or five or were married, and about seven or of whom were bachelor's, and so the merry guys did marriage, a few days a week, they would nature. Marriage course, through the single guy anymore, a single guy said well, some of what they said was true, but some of it was probably not the best. In the world, but you know there were less than they were trying to learn about what it's like to be married. When we go home, I want to go back to the code of conduct here again or to back the book. Your talk about the code of conduct You say we found the code of conduct had to be interpreted in light of specific circumstances. How long a person should resist under torture before complete
a biography or green to read the propaganda news into a tape recorder to be played over camp radio underwear conditions. Are we trying to escape how much torn you should someone take to avoid meeting with a peace delegation? These were not hyper medical issues that a detached executive made in a remote top floor corner office would address for Implementation by the rank and file in the pew w camps, the decision makers knew they were likely to be the first to follow their own guidance. Reisner stockdale, din made it clear that we were to refuse to participating propaganda broadcasts, but on extreme torture. It was impossible, The totally resist, as we learn from experience of several men who did not come home at some point, mind body in spirit ec, causing loss of rational, coherent fought and the ability to effectively function. Therefore, eyes, nor further clarified this policy by adding that we should quote, take torture indefinitely, but
opt short of losing life or limb or mental faculties by falling back to a second line of defence. Having been hush beyond his enduring several times. He knew that sometimes temporary submission was the only way to preserve the ability to fight because Some peered abuse were simply tougher, mentally or physically than others. Local are also had the freedom to interpret distance policies to suit the circumstances, may Larry Corina my send the right arena, Moreno who heroic we stood up to some of the worst treatment during the darkest days of the zoo camp demonstrate wise: the sermon about how to effectively balance accomplishment of mission and Therefore, the men here There are wide differences and people are very a few men like you. kastler. Major? U s air force, have the stamina and courage to stick to a hard line during severe punishment and continue to hold out most men, although I want to do a good job. We,
game. We resist the cruelties, but not for very long. Although our leaders were often turn tortured first and most, they did not pretend be macho John wayne heroes, contrary they can we shared the pain and despair of their broken us, helping us understand the enemies, tactics and the realities of what was and what was not possible, It would have been disastrous for the mission and for their credibility had been less than totally honest with us about their experiences and tore torture, chambers mutual, accountability and transparency in the face of a crew enemy bonded us together tightly. An analysis conducted after the war by headquarters- u s air force, reflects the sacrifices in commitment made to achieve the mission. Nine before warriors died before they could return with honor we lost
Eight brave men due to extreme torture and deprivation in the earlier years and one die of typhoid fever more than ninety five percent of the piazza abuse were tortured. Optimally. Forty percent of pewter abuse were in solitary confinement more than six months twenty per and were in solitary for more than a year to percent were in solitary for more than two years and several were in solitary more than four years. considering the length of stay in the crowded conditions. Are survival record was remarkable. Most of us. back in our mental health, mental and emotional state exceeded the predictions of most of the mental health professionals advising the deity over the other I'll determination and devotion of this group to our mission was impressive. Of the new five hundred pewter abusing our network fewer than ten percent or sars, the ten only two percent willing. We call
paraded with the enemy. Had it again from a leadership perspective. all this leadership was done, tapping on wars and sending examples dislike its it from a leadership perspectives, incredible story. well, when you don't have a lot of news and no radio, no tv, you don't get a lot of use in what you get is usually focused on what happening, how're resisting and that become. the two headlines and you know where you are, you know, what's gonna happen and you gotta be able to face up to it and walk walk that line one step at a time. I think that was so every day- was an unknown and yet Somehow we had to step out every day,
be ready for whatever came our way and respond to it in a way that was honourable, there was courageous that we would tat be willing to stand up to our boss inside Europe. What I did and here's, why did it and. The amazing thing about this situation. I think wonder, made it so strong was that the bosses got torture. the most and they had to stand up and say, here's what I did and hears. Why and hears what happen so the fact that our bosses were so vulnerable there very courageous and very tough, but there vulnerable about sharing what they had been true and what they had time. It set an example, and is a creator call sure there was very special, speaking of leadership, and you know, as I am as we gone through this book. This book
while leadership and and a book about veto, the human being can come up against. But its absolute leadership book. I've been we'll get some of the leadership a little bit later, but I did want to jump into this point on leadership right now. You say this leaders who balance the competing demands of results and relationships are able to push for the achievement of goals while eliciting the best from their people. It's if they have to bank accounts, they make their they make deposits in their results account by can distance, accomplishing their goals and they build up capital in their relationship account caring for their people as individuals of worth in, first instance, they earn credibility with their superiors and in the second, they earn loyalty from their followers
Occasionally, leaders will need to make withdrawals from these bank accounts, for example, a leader who is being pressured by unrealistic expectations from above may need to draw on the credibility she's accumulated with her results. Bank account and say to her superiors, we need to adjust this timetable or burn out our people, other times she may have to make a withdrawal from the relationship bank account and say to her team will, to work over the weekend to get this job done. With regard The balancing mission in people, admiral stockdale wisely said a leader must remember that he is responsible for his chargers. He must and to his flock flock nano. Cracking the whip but washing their feet when they are need of help balancing results in relationships is a major leadership challenge. Some leaders are naturally gifted with the head logic and not very good with the heart feelings. Others are the opposite only about
twenty percent of the population has a natural ability with both, even though whose, with this tightrope walk in capability, often end up tilting toward a results, oriented style because results are typically what get noticed and rewarded. If you leave style is unbalanced. good news, is that you don't have to reinvent yourself to gain better bout, you simply have to develop some of the skills you lack. Simply put. You may either need to toughen up or soften up this maize artificial, but with practice your adapted behaviors will feel more comfortable. They will never become totally natural. However, so. have to consistently unintentionally work. At keeping your balance, I make a living on that right. There, I've casinos arkose a year was worth point graduate army, ranger had a harboured mba and
when I told him when I confronted him so to speak. I said you know you don't give any positive feedback to your team, a really good executive team. He said well. As you know some here I said, wait a minute. You know better than I said your people. They are all different kinds and some of them the alot, more affirmation and feedback and others, but they all need to know that you believe in them that you care about him, that you see how well they're doing well. We actually wrote him out of three son us affirmation for one another, He pays on his team. and I had him stand in for the mirror and practice smiling till the point that he felt and I want you to go to the point. You feel almost ridiculous, smiling and energetic enthusiastic when you say this any practice and he did it.
And his team perform us really went up in, but I've got sam for two months and when I finish his, he said, last night. I was with him. He said: hey, can you say five minutes after we finish Diana said sure he said I got. Somebody wants me. So we finish, he jumps out The hall brings in a lady and introduces her ass, his wife, and she said I just wanted to meet you and say thank you, because we ever son, wherever one child once on, whose thirteen years old and in the last two or three months his relationship with our son has totally changed. He sits down and ass in questions and listens to him and smiles and encourages them said is just wonderful. Thank you and I said well he did it. You know hey courageously learned how to do. Things were
Ten years later I saw that theo meeting in Atlanta said how you doing upon hide your son. Do I owe you graduate from college in his work? the bank now says he and Argo run a half marathon together on saturday. It just- hardly chase, and here is a guy who was so results oriented. He could not even think anything about links are relationships are what people's needs were, but one she started letting people know that he cared about him and believe Denham, it'll We changed his leadership and now he's a ceo of another company and they think he's the best ceo there ever had yeah have awesome. life and I wrote another book which is called the dichotomy of leadership and what the doctor we have leadership is about is this at all The different dichotomy we talk about. The first chapter is about
You ve got these guys that you love more than anything else in the world. You're gonna, send them out on missions that make them killed, and how do you balance that you got about sat right and you gotta? Have you gotta care about them? and but you ve got a also accomplished the mission, ultimately If you don't take care of your men, you're not going to have anyone to execute the mission, so you have to prioritize taking care of your team, but you know you've got the the the same exact theory here measure resist awesome for me to read it in. You know, look different vocabulary, but the exact same message and holds true in they situation, and you know that that that chapter or that I'd dichotomy of leadership was the last chapter in the book: extreme ownership- because you know we said: hey, listen, you're, going to be pulled in multiple different directions. You gotta stay balance as leader. That's the thing you gotta do and there's a bunch of categories. You know you could be a micromanager if you go. you far in management, you could be two hands off, no knows. What's going on, so communicating you can
get too much communicate too little, so you want be balanced, but that is one chapter, but as we, went out continue to work with companies, the biggest problem companies- the bricks palm leaders have would be finding that balance and you say in here. You know people have what they ten torts right up. Some people, and towards action you, take care of everyone and they take a reference to the point that they will get anything done exactly and you people that tend towards I'm just gonna get the mission done and I don't care what happens? I don't care who I who's back, I step on to get there so yeah. I coated. I call Your book, extreme ownership. In a couple of times in my books, through by the white cause, I I thought your mindset said what I want to say and I said let her legit. I say yeah well, we emit the dichotomy of leadership. We pose all kinds of these opposing forces that you have as a leader and the the the opposed in force that you that you free
it's very succinctly is results for the relationship. Buzzer two things it they're poignant the directions, mission and people. Yet I ain't sayin, you gotta stay balance. You know, I've been working and assessments of human behaviour for thirty two years and the one thing I know is it: forty percent of the population is wired toward resolve mission focus and forty percent a word more towards people, patient relationship social focus and twenty percent have some above, but to be, leader you have to do both so you're gonna have to learn to adapt in certain situations to bees are tougher or more Ah a farming and kind. The things that the thing too nobody needs to understand, and this go to the pierre de vigo to fight a power world. A ghost everywhere. Is it every human being must feel bayonne important worthy
and when you, as a leader or well to let them know that you value them, that you appreciate them: that you believe they have a future. You believe in our future and you're gonna help them develop it. holy changes their loyalty, their commitment, they gonna work harder. They don't want, let you down, but that not easy for result. Mission focus later sets us not part of their natural mindset in o richard boycotts, doktor richer by actors. Who was the co authors of the big emotional intelligence book, it came out on two thousand and two or three I have a video to inhabit a video of him talking about the brain: does the network send a brain, any third task focus network and the social network, which is very similar to what we're talking about here. Mission people, results, relationship,
and he said they can actually see with a m r I's the brain that if the person is working, a problem, that the social network goes quiet and shuts down- and it's all focused on results, results results solving the problem and he says, but the problem is You have to do both and you have to learn to switch and he said in our schools business. Schools are nba programmes so much time is spent on results, results, result results and they don't teach him much about. learn how to deal with people, and let people know you care bottom. That you appreciate man that their valuable their importer and you oh there's. Another thing I watch the guy on california phd psychologists, and he talks about the though we are
the monitoring of the child's brain, a baby sixty nine months, all an I of a baby. Sixty nine months all when somebody smiles at them and calls with him. The prefrontal cortex develops in a healthy way, and so the whole concept here said for a small child unconditionally. is the most positive thing and people that have had a lot their prefrontal cortex develops. more healthy way. They have less problems, working was people in doing their job to, but every human being wants to be cared about and the more that and I have a model now it's called secure secure on the left side is insecure use.
And this model on, the left side is insecure. On the right side of this continuum as secure securest, confident and humble guy is a cure. Has doubts fears, shame guilt. All these things it costs. To be insecure and we all can be and secure in some places. So we slide back and forth on the smile, but healthy people spend most of their time over understood europe and, as a leader, my goal in europe, all should be. How can we help our people become more secure because a more secure they are the more coffin and combine them bilbil. to do things, but also they are going to be more humble admit when they do it, don't do it okay. So how can you do that? You have to help them believe in themselves? What can you do to help? So I came up with a simple that the four ays acknowledge existence exit.
Done for who they are sure. Some appreciation and affirmation, and find Those had to be legitimate affirmations for something they dawn. But Michael, The effort to do that. One, ceo coach, I had him put all the people's names across the top in a spreadsheet and all the things he needed to get to know about them down the side because said. I know some do tat. I don't go to hell they're off, so don't talk to him because I thought my job as well. I think it is So he has, he was so results oriented. I had him come off every time you yoda that person's office and do that you check it out and he I was how he learned how to do it yeah! That's all some stuff, a number one for me, A lot of times, you know when you talk about how to build people's confidence And the four is great
one of my favorite tools and leadership is leadership. My tools in leadership is leadership, or so I went through my whole career to this day when I want someone. When I want to show someone, I appreciate them when I want to show them. I trust the moment put in charge stuff, I'm gonna put them in. Suppositions and that's gonna. L evade the way they feel about themselves, they're, going to know that I trust them that are going to know. I appreciate them cause I'm giving them more autonomy so so that's just totally in line another If we talk about it at our companies is some. We call the leadership loop and just things to think about. As europe leading people and the heaviest weight when I'm making a leadership decision is it's gonna do my leadership capital. So if I, if I you know, we've got a project, that's due, and it's going to. He looked. Client wants it by by wednesday, and I know it's going to impact away Dave's you know his weekend is going to ruin his weekend. I'm actually going to weigh out hey Is this worth the imp It is going to have to my leadership capital, but
If dave- and maybe I say you know what I'm going to call the client and say- hey, listen, we're gonna have to push back a few days or all day. You know if it's the, if it's gonna ruin the relationship of the client, hey dave, this is, You know a cash in some of these chips. Man we gotta get. This thing done, Where do you want me to get this thing worked on this week and we gotta get this thing done so so that's again just in line different verbiage and then the other thing is when it comes to results, oriented and I'm saying to myself you know man for me to put them to they give Dave this product groups more autonomy is. Can't do this is good as me at lot of times. You know people say I want to get it done. I want to get it done right. The prom with Is it a short term win because for time I haven't develop dave into a into better leader that understands how to get these projects on so I need to think things in a strategic manner. So my goal becomes. Not the reverse
immediate results, for this particular project the goal, becomes winning in a long term. Strategic way where I've train, up, not just dave but three or four other of here, peers that can all step up and get the stuff done. Now we can win on a much broader scale and we're gonna get much, more profound strategic results, then, if I just gets after myself, because that's what the rest old oriented leader often wants to do You believe in him the present, when you did that you believed in it, and he don't want, let you down just the way it was I had to read this part you set over at camp over a plantation camp, charlie, plum, lieutenant J G, united states navy was the rest an inventor an engineer with a strong background and electronics, you develop more than a dozen devices to measure time temperature and wait. He was well on its way to making a radio win. The ve discovered his dash of razor blades naples, wire spools,
tinfoil plum, also scratched a keyboard on his bed boards and went over the note until he could hear them in his head. So we had charlie, plum on this on this cast number seven x number. Ninety five. So when you're in camp your memorizing, each other's names right, we're memorizing, all the names river. Do you remember, charlie, one's name? When you were in camp there? and then you met him afterwards. Yeah crazy, crazy When you're in there and and people do you, do you sort of get to know people, even though we ve never even seen, em, yes, and no, because times you might be with someone who does no town, and they tell you about and ass. Another thing, Charlie, plum mentioned to me- he said, you know, you're in a cell with four guys, He said it was around the three month mark. You knew absent,
will we every detail of their life? Every movie they'd seen every tv show they watched who or teachers were what their fate you know girlfriend that they ever had their families their their brothers girlfriends. You just knew everything he said with. A new person would come into the sell it. like all ears, airlines has like tell us your entire life story. That's crazy, on a fast forward here again fast forward through a bunch of stuff. But. we're getting towards the end here, early on our final day of captivity,. the visa issue reaches of each of us, a pair of dark blue cards? Slacks along we sleeved shirt, a grey win, make a small Jim bag in a parachute deleting wasting time getting dressed for the first time in more than five years, We would be wearing something other than blacker. Maruts striped pajamas my feet
become so accustomed. A rubber tread tyres held on by straps across the toll that I wondered. If I would have trouble putting on real shoes, it was not a problem. Yes, was the day the long awaited day and we were functioning as if it was just another day at work. To be honest, I was more curious than excited I grown. to be so cautious that my emotions were flat as a table five years for months and two weeks, one thousand nine hundred and fifty five days of captivity. I was going to walk through this exercise and see what happened as our were called: we stepped forward and saluted the senior: u S, airforce officer who is receiving us. We were then escorted. Three waiting see one forty once a bird, never a bird ever after two known as the hanoi taxi when we are all loaded, the walk on tail gates were closed and the window is aircraft which felt inside somewhat like a cave began.
Taxing out the lack of visibility brought to mind a trip I had taken less than a year earlier when we are transported under a top to the back of it. In the back of a truck from the Hanoi north to dog patch today's journey, though there would be no blindfolds handcuffs guards or bone jarring bounces, the revving of the sea, one forty ones for, engines caused my heart to race, Pilots love the feeling of power during the run up and take off time it was almost surreal as that makes released in our hanoi tat. accelerated smoothly down the runway. We held our breath waiting waiting, and finally the wheels broke ground. We were airborne a bed. cheers, yells, whistles and foot stops erupted in the cabin destination was the big hospital, a clark air force base in the philippines as the primary airforce staging base in both the korean and vietnam wars. It was a familiar place to most of us a few,
it's after take off the aircraft commander came on the intercom gentlemen. We are feet wet. and over international waters a roar went up. The captives indeed were free. On the flight to clark air force base, we see cigars circulated, Hands looked at. The latest magazines visited the cockpit where I was taken aback to see that the aircraft commander was a captain about my age. Still under thirty, we also took too its hugging, the three nurses onboard other than a couple the enemies. Could kitchen coolies, we seen a female and all those years, As a hungarian hilton has the Hanoi, taxi rolled into vip parking spaces clark. We were surprised to see a large court crowd waiting with welcome signs and banners, as we d planed, that Here's and tears of the crowd warmed our hearts and calmed our anxieties about our re entry into a radically altered world
It was a shock to be treated like returning heroes. We did, see yourselves as heroic. We had simply done our duty, so that's a Can you imagine what that was like. You know we were, as I said emotionally, we were so flat. It was like. Ok, what's next was night, but we were thrilled with the crowd in there was exciting, but it was always thinking. Okay. This is good. What's next, that was mine, I'm sure most, who will cause know what to expect. What was the biggest any look you talk. You talk a lot in the book about what you're actually doing. You know except one guy that he must have me. three or four rotation.
Through the child, all wine, gettin, sausages and eggs, and stake guys areas in everything talk about some of that stuff I mean you got capture Nineteen sixty seven as we mentioned this, was before the like the Be movement had really come out. What was your view? As you came back to this radically changed world? That's the term to use a radical change in. It was pretty it wasn't. There was a radical change. I was protected in that going back to georgia in small towns it wasn't as extreme as it would have been, maybe on san, diego or san francisco or somewhere about san diego, but san francisco l. I saw us somewhat protected, but I think there were several folks that threw parties for me highschool college friends.
that sort of thing and family, and there was a young lady who was my age college. What college with her was. It was an anti war person she'd become a college university professor, I think, was anti war, but she was my friend and I did not show any disrespect for her as she didn't show any for me. We were friendly. introduce each other respectfully. I think it was some of the extremists, though, that spit on soldiers and uniform and insulted them. I didn't encounter too many of those, but allowed people dead and p o debbie's. We then because the war ended it was over and there was wanting to celebrate in we gotta became something to celebrate that the war was over fell. I think both sides at least the anti war people
tolerated off, at least when we first came home and so Well, we didn't get any of that negative stuff and I think that made it a lot better for us and a lot easier for us to make that transition yet again we kind of touch it on our own and already, but just that the unity that you had as peeled abuse. The time you spent together the fact that you had. For your soul to each other, yet again to yourselves this sort of action the loot ownership, this extreme ownership of who you were as people that you all came out of this shockingly shockingly. Where shockingly well yeah. It is when you look at what we do and where we ban and all its group, it is I shockingly
well as the way we came home and I think You know I here's one example in looking. My own fell, I realize after retard I every word about getting promoted. I'd, my job as best I possibly could I just wanted to do a good job. I came back and went away. And I didn't want any special treatment. I just wonder, prove I could do my job and to be successful with it, but I didn't or about getting promoted toby. I didn't whereby get in this chamber that job you, I just it's cool in its common ice in whatever happens, is gonna happen. You know, so it because I didn't have insecurity gone back to the insecurity secure. How can I be insecure cure one? I've got a good stop aeroplanes flying flight commander. Section commander, alma chief of standards,
I should have on the chief check pilot on the base on the squadron commander I have had is so good and I don't think they me, though shop because I've been a p o dell. You know I had to prove tat. I could do it. My my unit, scott high ratings. They didn't give him high rating because of me they die gee or the inspectors would come in and standards asian valuation they come in and because I have good guys doing good jobs, no guide that my team was doing in their job really well. Well, okay, I think I helped him in retrospect. I didn't think about that or any of that at the time. But now I say: okay, I guess I was doing ok yeah. The elephant is can it be the let's say that the senior check pilot on base- and you are-
keen at your skill set, and you say: oh you know I could. I could get a little bit better at this you're. The type of person that goes well I'll, go work on it and I'll improve on it, I can be better at this and those- kind of people that ultimately get too a higher level because there being I swear themselves taken ownership of the shortfalls and then making corrections. I I you that that leads to debrief one of the most important things a personal leader can do is debrief and when I make a presentation, I do brief afterwards and say what did well. What did I do well to myself and what did I could add and better in this situation, when I go to a meeting? Ok, and I'll walk out of that meeting. I say what did I do well, what could have done better and I coach myself? Okay next time, you need to do to sort of dessert a little bit better, and I do the same thing when I
am home with my wife. There are times where I mess up poor guys, and I debrief myself after that. It's like, oh, what could have done better? Let's see, what can I do? ownership for sometimes my wife, even debriefs me form now, which is a bonus I mention this earlier so in in the book. This is leadership book and its leadership book filled with stores with a bunch of stories and examples of leadership, and the end of each one of these sections. You go through what call foot stop person, it's a very common to have the utmost civilians used the term foot stoppers, but in the military, We certainly all branches use this term foot stoppers, which is when you're learning something from an instructor, and they have a point That's gonna, beyond the test, they'll del Valle, stop their foot on the ground. Like hey, listen up, you better pay attention right, so you have these these sort of leadership foot stoppers at,
in the book in the throughout the book. But you? U summarize I'm here So I just want to go through these two to close out this number one, no yourself authentic ship flows from inside out. You will be most successful and fulfilled when you clarify who you you meekly are in terms of purpose, past and personality and then led authentically from back core and by the way everybody can tell and if you pretend trying to pretend to be someone you're, not people can tell it. I would say, intent has a smell. So if you're you just said you never try to get them when I never try to get promoted either is like a work hard and I kind of like van advantage that I was a prior enlisted officer so I didn't get promoted. Oh well, Why are we still in the navy for twenty years occurred during the victory? that in turn has a smell. So
Like you say here be authentic. Were to guard your character. Authentic leaders, intensely guard their character, clarify your values with specifically in total honesty, then structure. support team to help you live them with courage and transparency. Number three stay positive apposite did you just one leaders greatest assets and it's one of the best ways you can influence and lead. Others keep your chin up, because when it goes down you do too and many others will follow right behind and I dont know if there's any exertion both throughout history stronger than you all have from being in camp for positive attitude, so everyone can learn from that. Confirm your doubts and fears. Authentic leaders develop courage as an active will choose today to do what you know to be right, even when it feels unnatural or unsafe trust yours of honour, your values lean into your pain and
tensely, engage issues with strengthened humility, despite your fears. Number five fight to win, successful It is believe their mission and fight to carried out successfully. They don't quit. They expect to win they take others with them and they give the others. The credit numbers ex bounced back authentic leaders know that life is difficult. They expect to get knocked down and they have the proper attitude and outlook to enable them to persevere. You have Choice about how you responded, difficulties confront The brutal realities of your situation, but never give up, hope, develop your plan connect with your support team and bounced back. And then you get a new section leading others clarify and build your culture, authentic leaders, intentionally define and build cultures that Further the mission, vision and values of their organization assess the
culture of your organization and take the appropriate steps to make sure it is well defined, soundly structured and effectively communicated. For eight over communicate. The message effective communication requires intentional effort to overcome noise distractions misinterpretations in the workplace. You must avail, the clear message and comprehensive communication plan. Then you must over communicate your message multiple times through multiple channels I don't care what environment you're in whatever Communication methodology- you have is not as hard as tapping or walls with the threat of being tortured, killed so you can improve the communication inside your organization. number nine develop your people. Authentic leaders engage in continual development. Knowledge alone is not enough. The only way to grow as a leader is to do things differently. That requires change, go first and then take your people with you and again think there's anybody that has to work harder to develop their people than creating college courses inside of a prison camp
books, no books to offer memory number two, and balance mission and people outstanding leaders, balance accomplishment of emission results and care for the people relationships. However, the styles of most leaders are naturally biased towards one of this end of the spectrum or another. To enhance your leadership effectiveness find out, which The skills you need to develop, then leaning into the pain of your doubts and fears, adapter behaviors. To do what you know a good leader should do it's another thing. It's weird about these tendencies that we have is when we go against him, we think were wrong. think like we're gonna get in trouble. We think that dog I better not do that. A better I buy need to focus on results that that eagle will start timing in. Number eleven build cohesive teams, build trust by helping teammates, gain understanding, acceptance and respect for each other
salting unity and cohesion will enable them to engage in creative conflict, which, in turn, will build the commitment and loyalty necessary to overcome the most difficult challenges. Underrated way of building a cohesive team. Listening to what the tea master say, there's a lot of you, I didn't lot of examples you given the book about this is how much discussion in import the s our rose would take when coming up with a decision was like the us, our own just created the ideas in a vacuum and then impose them on the team You, you all, would have discussions and you describing the book is often passionate discussions about what the course of action was number twelve exploit creativity think, futuristic lee and innovate to stay competitive. Everyone has the capacity for innovative ideas. The leaders job is to draw them out, harnessed the ideas of creative folks and allow them to pull. You had the competition and
yeah I'd bread that one little section of charlie plump, but that's it there's a whole section that your talk about all these different individuals and all the things that they did to improve life. from the camp. You know most of the crew cavity comes from the bottom up and leaders to be aware of how did not say- and you have to adapt every idea that comes out, but quite then the people doing the work had the most cruel we have ideas of how to do it better and fix it. Yeah. No doubt about that that this, just you have to be paying attention to what the people in the front lines are yep number thirteen treasure your trials and celebrate your successes. Effective leadership is forged in the crucible of struggles and fueled by the celebration of accomplishment to promote team work and achieve success. Treasure your trials and celebrate your victories. And the last one free the captives, authentic leaders, proactively identify the shackles that hold them back and leave.
Into the pain to break free and grow. As you, gain your own freedom begin helping others to do the same start by a voice, bitterness connecting with your emotions and doing the right thing, even when it's difficult so those are the. Are the foot stoppers an end to get my god more of the details around those and great examples everyone is listening, get the book now you have this next book, the is called, engage with honour and we're not gonna. Do it today, but at some point hopefully hope, can come back and We can cover that book in the ideas the bar in a book in the stores that are in that book, but I wanted to do so quickly, just cutting introduce people too I thought was a really outstanding.
part of the book in also canada, of crux or one of the crux of the book, because book is called. The book is called, engage with honour some skipping to this section. Here it's called learn to engage it says Collaboration requires engagement, unfortunately many leaders respond out of unhealthy emotions instead of engaging to collaborate, let negative emotions, drive them to either dominate or withdraw it go back to the dichotomy leadership. These are two too streams that are bad dominating, a conversation, dominating ideas or withdrawing from conversations or withdrawing from ideas, and this presented in the leadership engagement model, which is something that you created all of us, have made this mistake at home were at work and usually in both arenas. It's the easy way out, but it's not honourable, and it never work In the long run in
comfortable situations most people have a natural default to eat. Dominate or withdraw based on natural dna. negative emotions. So that's it like you know you get confronted as if there's a plan that needs to be made. There is a scenario that's unfolding in what most p will tend to do, is either dominate or withdraw so that something's getting uncomfortable they either dominate or withdrawal. Depending on your dna, negative emotions come from the limbic system of the brain that can be quick and strong, making it easy to go left or right side responses, and you gotta charge here that unexplained moving to eat the inn, Each call so this is this: is it instead of trying to dominate or instead of withdrawing what you want to do. Is you want to engage? Does the engage com this chart which again I'll described in a second, requires you to slow down and use the prefrontal cortex of the brain, to rashly. Consider the issues and what's at stake, engage takes a willingness to respect. Listen,
share, logic, discuss mindsets and stay engaged to work through a healthy solution. Most of all, Engagement requires setting aside or walking through your fears, and that takes a great deal of courage. And then you get into this. Does this chart that you ve got here? the leadership engagement model, So, on the one side you got withdraw so this uncomfortable situation. This is how people spot one responsive people have is to withdraw, which means they retreat. They hide. If they avoid they abandoned, quit go. Passiveaggressive. The other side, the other extreme on the spectrum, is to dominate, which is they control the dictate they force they bully, they manipulate the you ve got a list of the emotions that kind of trigger these two responses and their boat the same right right fee. Anger, distrust pride, ego, hubris pessimism chain, guilt, both of you,
of those, above all those description, both those comments. So and you know with some people are afraid, some people just hide some people attack right wing. People will His ego gets in the way, of course, some people something will shy away or are eight. They turn people off, they don't say anything or some people jumping and try and dominate the core act response here you ve got in the middle, which is engage. A balanced response is believe: initiate dialogue, clarify connect, collaborate, celebrate and this is driven by the emotions of courage of respect, love, trust, humility, optimism, self, respect confidence. So this is the important thing for us to think about. an important model for us to think about. From this book-
engage with honour is think about what you're doing when it's time to respond are responding out of fear. Are your responding out of anger? Are you? Are you retreating, Are you hiding? Are you avoiding man that avoid when people like that one, they just going to avoid this problem? Pretend does exist. Hopefully we don't go away. Are you going to try and get in there and impose your your plan? Impose your will and force things down people's throats? None of those are good and said: go talk to people collaborate with them, so powerful stuff inside that book?
I don't have a ton of other information. I think you may have one of those that's the courage card on one side, the courage to challenge and on the backside it has the engage model that you were just talking about, so that we give these out to our client so that they can actually learn to coach themselves. Okay. Ah, yes, I was withdrawing there. I should have engaged. You know. We had one client who was so a large hospital and I at the workshop we were offsite retreat. I said: ok, how I want somebody to tell a story of how the hospital has done one or the other of days and thought about it for a minute and for my says, well, you know we are working with the doctors from that clinic over there. We tried to dominate cause, we're the hospital and there, the doctors and they withdrew and then a year later they came back with something
he tried to dominate and we withdrew, and what we needed today we'll sit down and work through all that with them again, because they need us and we need them, engage and work through it. You know Again, maybe next time we will go through them, They could somebody leadership in that inside that book, but for now gets us up to date. Somewhat will working. People find you. Let's talk about that. I know you ve got eating with honour dotcom yes that's the main page for consulting for your speaking, all that stuff, Be found there right you have an instagram, yes, you're instagram is leading with honour. You have a twitter so you want social media Lee Leon, Lee Alice facebook, page sir leon- parentheses Lee alice,
and then you ve, linked in we Ellis, came a pretty quick. The books. We, too talked about today. Leading if honour the. Both these books are available. Well boo boo, where the I'm going to put them on our website, so people can just easily find them and link through. I just gave go trawls who sit in the corner. I now have a look of. confirmation There are times where I, as a leader, fail to correctly impose the idea that when we say something should be on the website, it should be on the website. So I think by the big affirmation not discard from echo charles. I think we should be good, but that's where we can find yeah thanks and there are a lot of free tools on our website I think the things were talked about here. They enjoy viable and everything are, does her all free on the website. We, we even one on voting
totally non political, but it's on how to think about who you got vote for and it emphasizes character, but there's a few questions you can. Jack off, but there's just a lot of free tools on their work. what kind of scores our politicians given on the characteristics of each I talking about the point, the guy that scored a point: zero one beats the guy that sort Point: zero, zero one. You know I think. politicians get very and secure when they are afraid that somebody's gonna publicized, the negative about them and then they fight in what are you talkin about character? Earlier once you step over the line and do something you're, not proud of didn't. You have two covered especially if you're a politician and so used covering up, and then you do so that covering up causes more and it just cascades. That's why, when you mess something,
I hope you say, hey this just messed up exactly is my mistake. Here's where I was thinking! Here's why I did it wasn't right: yeah dave what you got for questions you've been even quite over there. At least I didn't know if it's comin out of all phantom, what's gonna phantom question come on the questions its actually very easy to be quiet. When I'm listening, you tell your story, so please don't take my lad, of verbal engagement as anything other than just been really captivated in this zone. For the second time in a couple months, I've had a chance to sit here and talk to her a fighter pilot. Tell his story will listen to bud buddy Anderson once back. Of course, now you and what think about more than anything. Is it it's just it's so remarkable to me that you're you're talking about these names and is
as a naval aviator middle Mccain, those names like that stock? they're just there just in the vernacular there's just the names at naval aviation, those I've a picture from my tea to buckeye intermediate jet training class. sitting on the wing of the exact same T2 buckeye, the John Mccain sat on as an engine when you talk about land, surgeon robbie raised her, and if you have any connection to the air force, which I was very fortunate growing up to have a connection and din exchange with the air force. Those names are the same names for the air force as the ones I about an on the navy, but those words I only knew them from books. I knew from war and from stories indebted to hear you talk about them in a way really humanizes them, because you you didn't read about them, you didn't hear about them. The you actually knew them has been. just the incredibly
incredibly powerful for me, because those guys shaped what I did in my life but I was removed from them because they were just. Then they were even people. They were just put up on a pedestal like they were, they were elevated of their. But to hear you talk about that, I hope you take a little bit of opium. Take some pride and knowing that there is an opportunity now for a whole, another generation of people and the thousands upon thousands of people are going to listen to his podcasts and hear those names are going to google them they're, going to look them up. They're going to read those books, thoughts of a philosophical fire pilot those type of books and in here about what inside and did turn them I honor they get here, they get to do to another group of people that they did to me, and I think the reason that happened is because I got to sit here and listen to you tell that story until those sorts of them. So thanks for letting me be part of this incredible Thank you Dave. I yeah those guys,
inspired me to they were? They were exceptional people because going back to things some of the things that job has been talk, The bell was, they believed in themselves, and they I'm afraid to they weren't afraid of failing. They knew. They were committed to what they were doing. They stayed with it and did the best they could, and they did not worry about what somebody else would thank or anything like that they just did their best and that's what made them so special to us and everybody else in the rewards, and you know that they russia would have won. A man of honour also, but had already given to three out to appeal Debbie's, lady wanna, give any more he should probably have had went to the silver star, but those they were amazing.
Racial last was an inspiring teammate. We play golf together, davy girls together, but always kind looked up to him. You know we're when we We you brought up land, you talked about lance, but we were on the part, ass, can you can you go through again and you know you're you're experiences with lance and what happened with him. Well, We are connected and survival school product we got our wings, we were, signed, therefore pipeline south east asia. Both of us were and are first next assignment was who air force base to survival school up in washington, and we went there and went through that, and I want tim and class and out in the field as were gone through an ass was pan so much attention carefully and asking questions in class and he sat on the front row and he was so focused on that survival. Training because
you were going to war should be important. While I was too, but not as much as he was, and then we got to know each the urns playing golf together and dating girl together and party in together. That sort of thing we went to war together on a charter does a flight from San francisco over till the philippines. Is we got levelled off and I felt us and all that less I went back to the back and met the to fly, met to the full and and got dates, whether a guy and if you read the book about him them out into the mouth of the cat that girl and air. So one day we met, and I still keep in touch with her but
and appeared in a situation when his airplane went down in Laos. He evaded capture for a forty forty three days or so and was dying, no food just eating bugs and leaves, and that sort of thing and his back was broken. So he couldn't stand up. He was crawling backwards and he had a skull that was bashed, open, so incredible, courage and then tried to escape, and he was just an amazing guy that did everything he could to be the soldier he was committed to be, and so that was a really good. Guy came from a really get home, I think, the one thing I want to say on this point, I can simply because it so important, lance group, in a family where his father, he and his father had a grey relationship, his mother and father. He had a good relationship with both of em,
He had a lot of unconditional love. Lance was an artist and a fighter hand to hand, combat type fighter and an artist and of football player. And a fighter power, but he was incredibly gifted artist and he was an actor hey played down in high school. He played in the then the great king, Of course I am, or whatever I am one of those plays. He was so incredibly adaptable and so talented in so many areas, but he had a incredible amount of unconditional love from his father and his mother. He had very little insecurity from shame or guilt from growing up and as a parrot, the more that you can provide that to your child, the healthier they're going to be the tougher they're going to be in battle and the more for
giving and accepting of others they will bay assist a healthy or person. So to me, that's one the most important one lessons, I've learned in all my pure dub experience. My leadership is that help people be more healthy, believe in them selves, so there'll be more healthy and they're going to be better performers at work, they're going to be better people at home, they're going to be better parents, and that sort of thing then you two ended up in prison camps, but you didn't know it I didn't know was hailed, so he was so that what was that experience? Well both in hanover hilton there and the same cell block and I didn't know he had been shot down. He went down to date after me and he was so thirty forty feet away in another cell, with two other guys and He was delirious. He started screaming in the it was obvious he was delirious because you are supposed to make any noise they're coming to be
drew up, but they knew he was delirious and badly wounded and injured, so they didn't come in and be more, but I try to climb down, but to english. Speaker came by checking on all the other cells and there to see what everything going. Ok and he but our cell and I said. Why don't you help that man who has a problem south like he need some help and english speakers said to me: he's been in jungle, long time have one foot in grave and I did not know it was lance for two years there was talking about. He died two days later, Go home any other closing thoughts we There are some great lessons that we learned in appear: Debbie camp that apply to love in marriage and saw just finished a new book culture, shared by love. Inspired
in true romance stories from vietnam, p o w s, and we have website kyoto, be a romance, not calm and it'll be out there were. You can sign up to learn, but we have twenty stories of guys who appear dubious more than five years, two of them more than eight years several of them six or seven years, who have had incredible love stories and their romances in there. But the love is there and at the end of each chapter, the chapters about nine or ten pages long end of each story. We have some love lessons and but those love lessons of commitment of caring, or some of the same lessons that helped us survive fast seven eight years is been obvious. Some raising how summer those lessons are.
and you know that brought the when you know the way, broadly seed and all things. So these lessons apply everywhere. Well Thank you so much. Thank you for coming on. Thanks for your service, they your sacrifice I just believable what you what you all went through. today. Europe pass these lessons on these. lessons on want to close with a sigh in your book that so so set the stage you get back home you're here, get your life in your career back on track, and that meant fine again, men flying again, and so euro About what that was like, I want to take it to the book. To close this thing out, you say like most of the peeled abuse I decided to continue my career in the service. The air force had instituted a plan called operation homecoming too
we requalify returning pilots, someone august seventh teen. Seventy three under the watch. I have my instructor pilot. I launched it thirty, eight out of ran off air force base in San Antonio as we cleared the end. The runway, I rotated the white rocket into a max climb. Press the mai button and made the call to the tower. freedom. Thirty four airborne. This captive was really free slipped, the surly bonds of earth. Once more. That's freedoms, Thank you, jacko. Thank you for having me our has been wonderful to be with you and day and they made echo here and I appreciate what you are doing to help all of us think about leadership, about
airbus and about just beyond good human. So thank you guys for what you're doing it's an honor. Sir. Thank you and with that Lee Ellis has left the building and Once again, we can look at our lives and see how ridiculously lucky and blessed are. We are to be doing whatever it is. We're doing, and I mean I mean how much war I'm going through the book. I, what part of my gun actually read, write there's so much in the red All just overcoming the worst possible challenges
yeah we d barely even talked about. I mean I've. Put I read a little bit. You know you're you're on a trip and you didn't bring any food, and so it's been like, nine hours into eight year old, bombed out new neurons, and you do or you go like hey, we would wear a road trip. and we're driving. We pull over, there's no food anywhere, so we finally pull over like a rest stop and they got a bunch of junk and you're mad right dude. we're talking five and a half years of like a little piece of bread with with bugs in this every day. So that's why you derricks that's what you're getting near. We barely
when we talk about that. Isn't saint yet to mention just all the little details we take for granted. Where you know he's like, I really wanted those socks yeah. You a richer and pair of socks, I mean one pair of socks. Coming from me is different than coming from you, but I was going to ask If you ever try sleep when your feet are cold, then you can't get there. I know wrong crowd, but I'm just saying most of us shit is hard can be in our in our daily lives today, but yeah he. You know he barely mentioned that or whatever, but consider all that put together and not to mention the stuff he didn't mention yet by the way. But it's like okay, your your feet are cold. You can't sleep, you don't have any food. The food that you do have is bugs in it. That's your baseline. on top of that you're getting tortured, you may get killed, you may get dysentery. All these things are going on. You may bomb dropped on you,
american bomb right and if you go on at this for five and a half years that keeping the pot this is, is where I started like assessing myself in this. As read. This I was thinking I just m slacking in like nine different categories on appreciates You know what I mean these are putting through such effort to improve themselves in prison camp there trying to learn a new language in a prison camp. They don't have like mad, because you know I didn't my my stake isn't ready, yet I'm kind of mad about that. My rabbi stake. Brutal is not you know, deef d when I got home my real by wasn't fully to frosted some gonna hafta like eat some, else, besides hereby state and a mad about it. Meanwhile,
guess her in a prison camp and there making courses to learn and improve themselves as the resisting in fighting. I like that, little thing. I talk about like scaling the victories that do with life. You know you scale, your victories, so we're lucky lucky hey! What is what are you will see why a keep adding get these mixed up with what negative geez versus Jeez in the plane negative Jesus floating august like if here ok, so you know only film movies some movies and they want to do like a great or of vehicles, diesel turmoil but you know they they want to do, is zero gravity scenario, so they gotta be plain and make that kind of the record.
Place and then they do a parabola, that's what they call it right. So that's a negative jeez scenario, your gotcha and then Jesus, obviously the print eighteen g's and the ejection seat death do something like that. Some crazy, it's! You know it's obviously a relatively short period of time but yeah. That's like a massive amount of initial onset. If you eject once I heard you're grounded for life, is that true or not? No, not true. What are two ejections I dont, actually know that. To my knowledge, I don't think there is anything that says: you're automatically grounded. I imagine a second objection. You're gonna get a pretty thorough physical, but I knew a decent number of guys at ejected went back to her plan. when you thought about grab your ejection handle what was the scenario yeah I mean that's a pretty fleeting thought. I'm in a dive do, I'm doing my just some. What I would consider like basic dumb bomb dropping bombs. forty five degree dive reply, goin out fringe of pity, not something
Where were you a yonder is in training? This is in in training. Here I can southern california and as acts of come commander, I get worse, like a jewel problems. I get like a deal deal at the door deserts, making these weird noises. I get this thing that lights up and I get this little it code that says fc as caution, which means my flight controls as I pull back on the stick like for a second, nothing happens with this digital flight control thing and my whoa I pulled back and like the jet, didn't respond, we're probably very short period of time, and in that moment you have these thoughts of like this is a good and you're in a dive. I'm gonna die was altitude. I would say six thousand feet, and I can't do that exactly remember the math, but I bet you're you're you're you're to set? It always is long tens of thousands be permitted, so you got it know, probably handful. Second, maybe twenty seconds or someone else literally were to get hit the ground
moment of hay and I, back nothing happens. I need to think about what am I assure you went through a few. One of them is, I need it, I might need to get the airplane and in I think a very short period of time. You a button, you didn't put the planes finding you and in an answer being totally on eventful, but when you make a consideration of doing that. It's a it's a significant. in your mind of having to think. Should I do this? Did you get a little adrenaline rush down your arms like when you almost crash a car to totally you feel it like? I guess, as I'm talking to this I think I am. I feel it in my chest more than anything like it evening or some some in. I guess it's almost like in exhilaration or something anxious by dumb dude, like I said man I almost don't even want to tell a story after list. what he's talking about, not to mention two. I didn't fully in reading the book, I wasn't able to piece together what what happened until he explained it. I was needed and, to be honest with you, like my
islet brain like this, this does for we make sense to me, that I've known was like to get shot down I'm talking about. Why did the why your point. Did that really didn't make sense, because I know a lot about aaa I've seen a bunch of videos we study that stuff and how the aeroplanes react to that is like didn't make sense The other thing is: what didn't make sense to me was like Charlie plumb. Talking about you could see the surface to air missiles coming at you, yeah said it looked like a telephone pole, yes and you're like looking at it going. Oh no, it's going to hit us cause. I was going to ask him. You know, in boxing they say the point that you don't see that knocks you out and also did you. Not see the strategic, and then he explained what happened psych o day sam, totally different story to is a big job missile going to kneel mock a couple and they oh up like they literally are designed to explode, Why doesn't do that? This is bullshit me. Then I have really the so when he asks
wayne did he did a well like bullet goes through your wing. Maybe it hits a hydraulic line or go through your engine, but you're not going to just instantly detonate and cartwheel you're going to You're, probably gonna pull out of it and go gang something's wrong. Some indicators, a pop up, the jet, might start to deteriorate over time. They be seconds or minutes, but this scenario of being in a dive being shot at by bullets and then just carling like literally up until sitting here. Listening explain it I never fully pisa. Together, my head, in fact the pilot was like. I do understand what and I was going ask him: why can you explain this better because I couldn't forward when he, the diffuse, the fm you gotta, which I think is a fuse mechanical Literally, just the thing that that than is about as soon as you said that it all made sounds like a bomb literally blew up underneath his jet. He probably had a string of bombs, probably picture two or three in a row like the old videos of bombs, coming out of the bottom bomb blows up blows up. The next bomb blows up the next bomb, probably one hundred feet away from his jet or less blows up his airplane from the bomb?
detonating, eddies, talking about tumbling, that makes much more sent in his heart breaking to think that in the end she didn't get shot down clarified why he was such a catastrophic event requiring them to get an airplane so quickly with us catastrophic series of failures, hearing explain it made it makes sense in my mind and it sucks, because obviously, kit predicted future, but yeah were you tracking how long it took me to understand. I was like wait. A second we were there together. I might have I known kind of a little bit of terminology of fm. You were like oh yea. I got that and- and I probably studied some of the I was like wait. What's fm, you yeah he's a yeah. We're saying I understand that stuff, maybe a little bit better, but in the end like I'm there with you and got and once it registered, hoddan and why it so heartbreaking is that you know this pilot or not
The water is home to the water and, as he is he's seeing, the ocean, like in your brain as a pilot raving, especially in our service, get me to the water I'll, be okay, I'll, just hang out there until somebody picks me up and I hope we're cool, especially you're down in most in southeast asian waters or like I got this tenant used to tell me the the water, and I think he said a couple miles away a couple of robots literally seconds seconds. It's not a couple miles of walking it's in an airplane, which is one thousand one thousand and two he jacked. Now I'm good yeah it and if you're, if you got hit by aaa interjects what we call it kind of like kind of falling of our on an EU italy, hey man, box, did we get about thirty seconds, you're gonna be fine. So the back that it was catastrophic and had no choice. That was the day it would have been better had he been shot down by aaa cause, he pocketed just pull the thing out: lawford up motor shots, on catches on fire he's talking to the guy you get
thirty seconds. Your fine, that didn't happen, but I did not follow that serious events from the book until he explained it again and then it's just awful and it happened to apply to people in his tell him that I'd like I'd. Never I had never heard. Those I did not know that was the case in might. Nope did not know that from you, early fan days. Middleweight sixties cover that fuses praetor Anything I ever flew with our fuses or soup, reliable. We need a programme of work awesome. I dont think I ever once heard a story: a fuse prematurely detonating, a weapon that we lost in when we had meal different mechanical failures, felicity and there, but nothing like that. Certainly not Anything were multiple aeroplanes or loss as a result, its offer sucks. You know I I noticed member
I think it was an underground podcast. We do we're talking about. Somebody is using the terms putting hands on yeah like I have put hands on them and it's sort of a it's. Does that remind you, win Dave says: get out of the airplane. Yeah is like this bingo, they can lay a little light like, but it still kind. I like that, as you have the same, Tiree lightweight like I might have to get out of the airplane, yeah yeah yep. I think it yeah very simple. You know same poor hands on it, so there what's put hands on putting hands or someone is like dude owes you guys get my presided put hands all we can in no way of saying I certainly say my guide and opposition is that? Are you just say, my guy, you know you got a logical, you gonna be like you,
to get out of the decade, whatever you guys always say they can stuff too, though, but like what rounds. Downrange yeah I'd, probably just like so guilty of like forty seven little statements like that, but I didn't even know until you brought it up. I was recount like when did I say that is how you say it, so it didn't even cross my mind that that was a thing but putting down range yep, that's what we're doing even even the even contact when you say we caught nor the enemy cod, Did us or whatever body totally attacked you guys, with guns yeah, that's more of a big that then it turns out. I want what dave cause about. You are so that your vote, you're you're fur, is not didn't translation ears like oh enemy contact, that's what it's called it's yeah and it seems like even that get out of the airplane. It kind of seems like hey, let's not make it's a huge deal. We all know that already, but let's not make it a huge deal, kind of a thing and think about it there. So we can navigate
through the scenario seems saying it's almost like it's on purpose yeah, just he just gets out or just so everyone was getting out of their airplane is what you should do when you land, hey, I'm good. Now I'm going to get out of the airport, alright it's, like those nonchalant pilot thing to be like all manner, of six thousand feet, closing with the earth and go on five hundred knots? I am just going to get out of the airplane, get radio, which is what it really is. Whatever this the same thing with putting rounds down range same thing with floating hands on someone you know It's like oh yeah. That means you're getting you're about to get in a fight with someone blood's going to be drawn people getting stabbed or whatever put hands on will put hands on this dude. So he had a good one. Too, that I've heard a billion times, but he in the phrase he used. The phrase out of here spit out of ideas, classic aviator lingo of yeah you're right on, so you know, speaking of food
I did notice he mentioned cutlass Supreme with wire wheels on. I had one of those two by the way. Nineteen eighty five comes, did you? Why are you the same logic as to purchase in that car? They? He did because the reason you bought that was like the whole story. Every day the bucket the truth, is I don't match our money to buy seeds! I need a bench zoomed that girl right next him. What were you is your cutlass frame? Eighty five, it's the same as the empower, not the same as the gtl little different. I mean it's the same concept, though the powers like legit and or the The supreme is like a yet version, but it doesn't have quite the power and I didn't especially the time, maybe that not only did I not have the option of bought it from my friend, but I didn't know that much about it in you. I dislike the look, then about the wire. Will you no good deal there had a corvette right. Yes, sir, it is straight ass. This is like a hundred percent. Does it hot city? I may have imposed a throwback thursday instagram with me, and that that here
It was your drive. Your car of one hundred percent collar was yours. The first one I got in flight school while he was notable, was ok. the first one black on black, what was the second one was like a light like a purer kind of like a metallic color. The first one was like a ninety five black sea, speed very wishes at will they fast? There are some really get caught. if some vets are a little bit where the mid eighties. To like the early nineties, I think I had what's called a. I know an official was going to we'll get it wrong. I think it was. It was the sea five like that generation was the first real they had come back to like it was a alleged yeah and the second I got what was a no to that was totally widget cruising the top Have you seen the new ones with the engine? Are you going to get one of those I've probably outgrown the the vet? That was
You know my kid child a dream and like young early, is it, but don't they just real people back here, I'm goin valued. Anyone on that then new ones, legit looks it's the leg legit across the boy s like it competes. Yes, I'm not gonna get one No man How did you sure, maybe about it. get into the corvette as they say. our I speaking of food, speaking a food. So what times are now in the world? I don't know, it's been old many many hours since I've eaten and when I, when I took LI l us Downstairs to see him off, I grabbed a mock already drink milk because I haven't eaten. today is the first thing a meeting is delicious. does a ready to drink they're out there. Therein why why we're making them as many as we can right now, which is not easy because the debate
signal you, we had these at camp agitator camp, we got enough like six days or whatever they were gone Today's people, just come back to back to back to back to back to back their awesome get some if you want to get some good a shock of your dark. gonna go to warsaw vitamin shop and get you some we're gonna make as many as we can and were up the production all that stuff cause people want things are healthy. You will What, then, there were supplying better is discipline. Go the drink, do we called an energy drink? Yes, we kind of have to the new. Is it comparable to no normal energy drink. Now, because a normal energy drinks giving you type two diabetes and some other crop, the issues
Oh jack witherspoon go on energy drink! That's truly good for you! Your kids can drink it. I mean, maybe not your nine year old, or your teenage kids. Look, your teenage kids gonna go on grab. One of the other energy drinks, which is literally horrible for them is poison, so while doing that. Let them drink something healthy. So there you go. Discipline, go drug for your drug fuel, dotcom who's, the the the what he calls like the caricature of the the teenager, kid with the flat, broom hat the column kyle ever heard of this guy no know not a real guy like just a character. Ok, and he has the energy during, which is a chat, now known trial. Europhiles different so has whose chat chad is like good womanizer, but a guy who cannot daughter of study exactly right got laughlin com, kyle's. Just a brawl calibre like the bureau in a flat brim had may or may not have. Sparkles honours oversized sure may or may not.
a gamer hasn't energy, drink, usually a bad one. It's kind of a negative stigma, like the kind of some kind of nine thousand american Y, know if you're going to drink in a discipline, go no he's not he's drinking to junk energy drink. But so you need a different guy. Now seem sane, you gotta be somebody's training jiu to is somebody It's working out getting up early, somebody that's getting up after it there you go dogs, you lock on origin, usa, dot com! stuff maiden america get shirts get belts get boots, get genes guest, maiden america gets I've made in america. That's what I'm talkin about by those new case or delta. Sixty eight genes in the two new collar is really what it is called the wash whatever in India that much better, Nonetheless, I have for you the light once we went out to dinner the other day and my son really like the light once he six, but for you
the pointed out and say that those genes or dope, one of the litmus tess yeah, that's true. He likes smoke too, like smoke too so he's just across the border. Legit kid approval scarce will be approved and he's kind of hard to. Please too he's one of those kinda guys I got. One of these rtd is not the not the mock like the other brand, that was kind of supplied it at one point, given the the place we were at and he didn't like almost straight up to say, junk talons, junk and now he's down for the call and always totally don't really check the prores in usa. Dot com get yourself, I recommend stuff. That's my! That's we're support america. I think that's just as self evident right. That's what we're doing and you know, even if what they would like a well, not necessarily sure I support amerika. Okay. Well, do you at least not want to support slave labour view he's not want to support of thirteen. old girl working in a sweat shop? somewhere in some foreign country for three dollars a month that good
humble by the way at any moment it has before and the view so that a look you don't want to support america, it fair enough. Ok, but do you want to for the virtual, a form of slavery that is taking place right now. Will we don't support origin, usa, darker, there's, a strip of chocolate store, job was done dacosta, dotcoms, we'd, darkens, righi discipline using I started as we kind of messed it up. Noise reinforcing. It seems in simpson, store. That's what I'm going to talk about your AL political website and okra discipline? unequal freedom, shirts, hats and hoodies. We do have the shirt locker. gone are the days of not being able to find a t shirt in the event that you a t shirt where which a lot of us, but those days are gone,
you always have a new one. Every month boom. All designs are good. Real positive feedback, look out for them, drugstore dot com, I'm here to tell you What your feet must be called exactly right, you're all over the man. I was it not outbreak lease. If this insane I am proud of the past- go to jack on around our camp, subscriber that you gotta you to jail, subscribed to that get psychological offer, give full footsore canvas dotcom, dakota Meyer, books we got leading with honour by LI l. Us we got engaged with honour by Lee Ellis check out. Those tons of lessons learned in credit. Books to read, only cry for the living speaking a war, holly Mackay she wrote an awesome Mcchrystal life to write their book. Take that one especially with everything, that's going on the world right now, it's good stuff to understand. You know all the books, I've written! You might want to check this especially the kids books, come on, come on,
Maybe you're like too late to save, maybe like this money goes freedom socket help me in his arms to a market is just a disaster but dont your kids go off the path break to break the cycle. Do your kids on the path that a minimum, look: should you get on about the ass? You should get this political freedom feel manual should get that for your, your dear your cousin and your dad. and your mom right do, that but at a minimum. Get your nephew and your kid and Well, you know the people, you know the kids, you know get them with a way. The warrior kid series get a mic in a drag. Just do that. Do them a favor, a lifelong favor I come from. We have leadership consultancy. We promising leadership we have the next muster is in orlando April. Third, through the fifth so if you want to come to that, you better sign up now the one hour atlanta sold out.
everything we do saw that sells out. So if you want to come to any of our events, go to an actual affront dot com, if you have a company, you want us to work with your company, helping you with leadership, echelon, front dot, com, have online training academy. You can Get better. You don't have to create courses from memory in a prison camp to get better. You gotta, extreme ownership. Dot com can learn about leadership from us, we'll have to hit a tap code. Thankfully,. We can just sit there and answer your questions and alive session or you can go. The course that we have on their learn about life, If you want help service members, active and retired, you won't help their families, gold, star family, check out MARC Lee's, MA mama Lee she's got an incredible charity organization. If you want to donate or you want to get involved, go to america's mighty warriors dot, org and don't forget, mica think who's up. There in the wilderness reintroducing veterans, to their sole heroes? and horses dot. Org once
and if you want to follow LI l S or you want to connect with LI l s leading with honour dot com. He's gonna to graham at leading with honour he's got a twitter. On Lee Ellis facebook Leon in parentheses, li l us and is linkedin is less the books leading reformer engaging with and, of course, captured by love. His new one. What's coming up What is out soon to be honest Go for that one, we voted with a love expert named gregg go dec. somehow I didn't get tapped as the love expert, but that's the way it is if want to follow us on twitter on the ground. On Echo is an echo charles davies, that David are burke and I'm out jocker willing or to offer the algorithm coastal grab you
and thanks once again to colonel LEO's for his service and sacrifice and all those peered abuse who faced such horror but maintained their honour and therefore the honor of our great nation and thanks to all the military personnel out there, you sign the dotted line, where to uphold the constitution regardless Why you face so thank you for protecting arson, way of life in the same goes to the right. Steve are police force law enforcement, firefighters, paramedics, empties, despond dispatch, there's correctional officers, border patrol. Good service all first responders. You all swear an oath to protect us and we thank you for your service as well as everyone else it out there when your facing something tough. like life
because life is tough. Remember the stockdale paradox That is that you can never confuse faith that you're gonna prevail in the end. So you gotta believe that you're gonna prevail in the end, can't afford to lose that. But at the same time, you gotta have the discipline to confront the most
Transcript generated on 2022-11-28.